00:01:07 <kmc> i really should know better than to get involved in Git Vs Darcs
00:01:09 <kmc> i don't even care really
00:02:10 <elliott> kmc: are you seriously in a channel where there are people who like darcs
00:02:15 <elliott> come on you're practically in #haskell already
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00:06:38 <Sgeo> What of non-eso languages that by their nature don't have keywords?
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00:09:19 <Sgeo> Tcl and Rebol don't count as esolangs I think
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00:18:28 <elliott> hm but they're talked about so much in #esoteric...
00:19:16 <Sgeo> Probably more than Tcl and Rebol combined
00:19:43 <mnoqy> everyone knows haskell is JUST PLAIN WEIRD AND CRAZY and only for special people -gags & vomit-
00:20:06 <mnoqy> everyone is special, shachaf
00:22:01 <shachaf> even for photographers.............................
00:22:31 <shachaf> kmc: you should make a version of MS-DOS which runs on a cluster of computers
00:23:02 * kmc waits for it
00:23:06 <elliott> kmc: hey i thought of another great reason you should be in #haskell
00:23:15 <kmc> oh "distributed DOS"
00:23:24 <elliott> kmc: you don't use (#)haskell but you still go on about it a lot
00:23:33 <kmc> not that much really
00:23:38 <kmc> people keep bringing it up here.............................
00:23:45 <elliott> just think how much more you could complain about #haskell if you were in it
00:23:52 <elliott> and you wouldn't seem bitter because it'd be present tense!
00:24:51 <shachaf> kmc could seem bitter while handing out candy
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00:25:27 <elliott> by candy do you mean drugz
00:25:35 <elliott> gonna get me some of kmc's "candy"
00:25:45 <kmc> brain candy
00:26:13 <shachaf> elliott: you gotta move to ca to have kmc be your dealer
00:26:17 <elliott> kmc: did i mention caleskell is gone.......
00:26:31 <shachaf> elliott: he doesn't do interstate commerce
00:26:46 <shachaf> (the joke is everything is interstate commerce)
00:26:46 <elliott> attn kmc and/or other californians
00:26:48 <elliott> 01:26:03 <badzavrza> http://www.california-roleplay.org/
00:27:33 <elliott> 01:26:03 -!- badzavrza [~badzavrza@178-221-29-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]
00:27:33 <elliott> i like how my connection dropped for 10 seconds after pasting that first line
00:27:46 <elliott> if only kmc was in #haskell so he'd hear about california roleplay 1st hand
00:28:05 <elliott> kmc: did you know augustss has been in #haskell recently........
00:28:08 <kmc> a bunch of croatian people pretending to be in california???
00:28:10 <kmc> elliott: cool
00:28:13 <shachaf> 17:26 -!- badzavrza [~badzavrza@178-221-29-105.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs] has quit [Killed (idoru (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]
00:28:34 <shachaf> to be fair elliott's timestamp is wrong
00:28:49 <elliott> kmc: not as kool as kmc.......
00:29:13 <elliott> trying to think of three words starting with k that i could use to describe kmc's hypothetical haskell presence in haskell so i can turn them into an acronym
00:29:42 <shachaf> btw important question...........
00:29:53 -!- augur has changed nick to LRk.
00:29:53 <shachaf> is there something like /usr/share/dict/words except with "lots of good metadata" about the words
00:29:57 -!- LRk has changed nick to augur.
00:30:09 <lambdabot> *** "metadata" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:30:09 <lambdabot> n 1: data about data; "a library catalog is metadata because it
00:30:10 <shachaf> like adjective/verb/whatever, tense/whatever, number of syllables, stress, ........
00:30:32 <elliott> there is a command line wordnet tool
00:34:21 <kmc> Look! At the picture. See! The skull. The part of bone removed. The master race Frankenstein radio controls.
00:35:06 <elliott> 17:31:16 --- join: fwe (~ssjsj@31.205.67.235) joined #haskell
00:35:16 <elliott> 17:31:18 <fwe> i was in project that was failing and as a result got my probation period extended. they said my programming skills were not that good.
00:35:19 <elliott> however an expert programmer was brought in and the project is still failing. the project manager and i had had an argument and that is why he tried to sabotage me. do you feel the boss knows the truth now?
00:35:23 <elliott> kmc: look what you're missing!!!
00:36:25 <shachaf> kmc: if only we had more ops on their toes, ready to ban the trolls etc
00:36:49 <elliott> mosh's messing up all the lines with this terminal is so awful that i copied that from the tunes logs.........
00:36:53 <elliott> imo rewrite mosh in haskell
00:37:14 <shachaf> imo rewrite haskell in mosh
00:37:22 <kmc> shachaf: now we're talking about php help
00:37:37 <Fiora> kmc: http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/Pot-o-Gold.aspx I saw this the other day
00:37:43 <Fiora> "type conversion in PHP"
00:37:45 <shachaf> kmc: do you really think the "##crypto experience" is better than "the #haskell" experience
00:38:23 <elliott> lots of aim heckers in #haskell, if you know what i mean
00:38:30 <elliott> (i mean that people complain about php in #haskell a lot)
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00:44:40 <shachaf> kmc: also monochrom said he misses you once
00:45:01 <shachaf> if that's not a good reason to join #haskell (alt. any channel monochrom is in) then i don't know what is
00:45:37 <elliott> more reasons to join #haskell: prevents anyone from having the thought "maybe if i murder kmc they'll shut up about him joining #haskell in #esoteric"
00:46:38 <ion> fiora: unsafeCoerce?
00:47:08 <shachaf> 18:52:21 <monochrom> always trust monochrom after you have asked him to double-check and he has confirmed
00:47:21 <Fiora> ion: I... have no idea >_< I don't know haskell
00:47:43 <fizzie> WordNet also has an API.
00:47:45 <shachaf> Fiora: unsafeCoerce is like reinterpret_cast.
00:48:10 <shachaf> Fiora: You should learn Haskell!
00:49:41 <fizzie> It does not know anything about phonology, though.
00:50:02 <Fiora> I learned haskell before for class... kind of...
00:52:05 <shachaf> they teach haskell in classes now??
00:52:50 <Fiora> Um... our compilers class used haskell, mostly, so the professor taught us a bit of it
00:52:58 <fizzie> (There are a couple free pronunciation dictionaries of different size, but none of those I know about collect other sort of mettadatta.)
00:53:46 <shachaf> "oh wait pseudonym never mind"
00:55:23 <shachaf> I should stop phrasing things in esoterese.
00:55:53 <Fiora> or... actually wait, I think it was the programming languages class?
00:56:19 <elliott> haskell is well-suited for compilers at least, so it's a fairly good setting to encounter it in
00:56:30 <Fiora> geez it was three years ago now >_<
00:57:37 <Fiora> whatever it was we did do some compiler-making in it, like stuff with inheritance and type checking and super basic optimization
00:57:45 <Fiora> haskell pattern matching was like amazing for it
00:57:54 <Fiora> you could write a peephole optimizer by pattern-matching against instruction sequences
00:58:00 <elliott> three years ago i was 14........... yikes
00:58:00 <fizzie> Our compiler class: used Java; and compiled: "MiniJava"; which has as a single lexical token the string "System.out.println".
00:58:43 <Fiora> like you could match against (mul x 2) and turn it into (add x x) type of thing
01:00:05 <fizzie> elliott: Statement ::= "System.out.println" "(" Expression ")" ";".
01:00:32 <elliott> every time i do a simple peephole optimiser it always feels like i'm not really doing optimisation because it's too simple :(
01:00:34 <fizzie> (The type of Expression must also be "int".)
01:01:11 <elliott> hm is x+x or x*2 actually faster in general with today's cpus(tm)? I have no idea
01:01:16 <elliott> I would assume the latter, but
01:01:19 <elliott> (I realise it was just an example)
01:01:38 <fizzie> Oh, also: MainClass ::= "class" Identifier "{" "public" "static" "void" "main" "(" "String" "[" "]" Identifier ")" "{" Statement "}" "}".
01:02:08 <Fiora> add is typically 1 cycle latency and can issue on every pipe, so 0.25/0.33/0.5 inverse throughput depending on the CPU?
01:02:10 <fizzie> None of those things ("public", "static", "String") have any sort of more proper significance. They're just... strings.
01:02:22 <Fiora> multiply kind of ranges but like... it usually can only issue once per cycle and it has higher latency so it's like... 3/1, 4/1, 5/1 ish?
01:02:35 <Fiora> I mean it kind of makes sense that adds are a lot easier than multiplies
01:03:05 <Sgeo> Did the interview ever get published or anything?
01:03:11 <fizzie> Fiora: But do they deal with immediate 2 in any sort of special way? (Perhaps not, since it's the sort of thing you'd expect tools to do.)
01:03:12 <elliott> I don't know what 0.25/0.33/0.5 inverse throughput actually means :(
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01:07:47 <Fiora> usually I think other things tend to be the bottleneck for cycle length?
01:07:51 <Fiora> so like, atom has only two execution pipes
01:07:55 <Fiora> so it can't possibly do more than two adds
01:08:12 <fizzie> "In Intel microarchitecture code name Sandy Bridge, the low 64-bit result of a 128-bit multiply is ready to use in 3 cycles and the high 64-bit result is ready one cycle after the low 64-bit result. -- In a dependent chain of addition of integers wider than 128-bits, accessing the high 64-bits result of the multiply should be delayed relative to the low 64-bit multiply result for optimal ...
01:08:15 <Fiora> so usually every execution pipe can do at least the most simple things
01:08:18 <fizzie> ... software pipelining."
01:08:22 <fizzie> Writing a proper optimizing compiler must be the best job.
01:10:07 <Fiora> from agner's little chart thing, various CPUs doing 32x32->32 multiplies: bulldozer: 4/2 sandy bridge: 3/1 original p4: 14/4.5 prescott: 10/2.5 atom: 5/2
01:11:39 <Fiora> I was guessing on the haswell add thing, like, I just remember hearing that they added a 4th execution pipe for super-simple-things-only, to handle like, jumps and loop overhead and stuff while the others handle big things like simd operations?
01:12:17 <fizzie> A kind of a... half-pipe... (ba-dum tssh)
01:13:09 <fizzie> It's some kind of a snow ski thing, right?
01:13:18 <Fiora> I think so it's like a skateboarding thing?
01:13:28 <Fiora> I know this because my little brother was really, really into tony hawk's pro skater
01:13:38 <fizzie> I think Ski Or Die had a half-pipe event.
01:13:38 <shachaf> let's settle on snowboarding hth
01:13:55 <elliott> the tony hawk's games obsoleted actual skateboarding
01:14:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_or_Die <- Snowboard Halfpipe is like right there in the article image.
01:14:17 <Fiora> so now intel has like, 7 execution pipes
01:16:09 <fizzie> "When a girl start giving a guy head but then decides to stop/leave before the guy blows his load. -- She stoped giving me head before I cames and she left. All I got was a half-pipe." thanks, urban dictionary.
01:16:25 <fizzie> Did you stoped at the red light?
01:17:11 <Fiora> http://www.csanl.com.br/alunos/paginas/2012/7a/f7a14/Image%209.jpg
01:17:13 <Fiora> I think it's that thing
01:17:19 <Fiora> but um I guess this is kind of off topic
01:17:44 <fizzie> I don't see how, it was a logical consequence of whatever came before.
01:21:13 <fizzie> "The current method of half pipe cutting is by use of a Zaugg Pipe Monster." okay that's it time to sleep it's 4:20am
01:22:24 <ion> Thanks for explaining. Thexplaining.
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01:25:28 <kmc> i missed microarchitecture because i was cleaning my bathroom :'(
01:25:37 <fizzie> (Possibly the Zaugg Pipe Monster was enough of a drugz joke already.)
01:26:27 <elliott> kmc: it's ok it was just me not knowing basic things!!!
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01:27:19 <kmc> i learned from 6.004 that there are lots of different ways you can structure an adder
01:27:26 <kmc> with the goal of minimizing gate delay
01:27:33 <kmc> but they probably have settled on one by now
01:28:18 <kmc> like the naive adder takes O(# bits) to settle down; the last gate can't start settling before it gets the carry from the previous
01:28:52 <elliott> how long until the transistors are small enough to just hardcode all the results
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01:29:12 <elliott> also can we have 3d cube cpus, that would be cool
01:29:26 <Sgeo> "The problem for marketers is that some users set their browsers to reject cookies or quickly extinguish them. And mobile phones, which are taking an increasing chunk of the Web usage, do not use cookies."
01:29:26 <kmc> so you can make a "carry select" adder where you do the last half of the addition twice in parallel, once assuming carry 0, once assuming carry 1
01:29:28 <Fiora> kmc: we can talk more about it and stuff!
01:29:29 <Sgeo> I hate everyone.
01:29:33 <Sgeo> http://www.forbes.com/sites/adamtanner/2013/06/17/the-web-cookie-is-dying-heres-the-creepier-technology-that-comes-next/
01:29:38 <kmc> and then the actual carry just selects between those
01:30:00 <kmc> and so a good archticeture is like an unbalanced tree of this idea recursively
01:30:23 <Fiora> I remember hearing though that the bottleneck in current chips is often things like "select the oldest instructions whose input dependencies are satisfied from this queue of 36 instructions" and things like that? and I guess maybe like cache loads and stuff?
01:30:31 <Fiora> like, OOE logic and things
01:30:41 <elliott> really dumb question: why are chips flat
01:30:57 <elliott> i guess they have 3d internal structure but it's all really small?
01:31:04 <Sgeo> Can someone please tell me where "mobile phones do not use cookies" come from?
01:31:06 <Fiora> it's because of the way lithography works, isn't it?
01:31:10 <Sgeo> It has to be a misunderstanding of SOMETHING
01:31:16 <Fiora> like, it's all about laying down layers
01:31:32 <fizzie> Aren't they starting to do "3D" like right these days?
01:31:41 <Fiora> so like, if you wanted it 3D, you'd have to stick two silicon wafers on top of each other (?) I'm not sure
01:32:39 <elliott> more dumb questions: wouldn't it all be a lot faster if they like, integrated the RAM with the CPU.
01:32:55 <fizzie> Oh, the "3D" of a tri-gate transistor perhaps has nothing to do with three dimensions. How nice.
01:33:51 <Fiora> elliott: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDRAM it's a thing!
01:34:25 <elliott> oh they actually use it in consoles and stuff
01:34:35 <fizzie> Anyway actual three-dimensional things are a thing too, I'm pretty sure, just not such a commercially viable thing.
01:34:44 <elliott> it seems like it would be, like, significantly faster? because you can skip all the communication paths and stuff
01:34:51 <elliott> and the motherboard and all that?
01:34:54 <elliott> and RAM latency is kind of a big deal right
01:35:14 <elliott> but I guess if they're using it in consoles and not "regular computer" CPUs it mustn't be that amazing..... (but then why are they using it in consoles)
01:35:23 <kmc> intel has those 3D transistors now
01:35:33 <Fiora> I think a lot of RAM latency comes not from the distance but from like...
01:35:35 <kmc> if you want like a cube shape then one big obstacle is routing power and cooling
01:35:56 <Fiora> like, the logic itself? I mean like, there's a controller, which is this crazy complex thing and has to negotiate requests from multiple cores
01:36:21 <Fiora> and then there's the row/column addressing, the refreshing, and all kinds of stuff I don't really know abot
01:36:32 <Fiora> it's like, DRAM itself is kind of not trivial to access?
01:36:35 <elliott> I just see a long path and think "hey, I bet lightspeed is some kind of bottleneck here in 2013" :P
01:36:47 <fizzie> kmc: "Tri-gate or 3D Transistor (not to be confused with 3D microchips) fabrication is used by Intel Corporation for the nonplanar transistor architecture --" that seems to sort of imply it's not a properly "3D IC" thing.
01:37:13 <Fiora> (20 centimeters) / ((2 / 3) * c) = 1.00069229 nanoseconds
01:37:26 <Fiora> so like... if the roundtripdistance is 20cm that's like... it's like only 1ns extra time from the wire?
01:39:53 <Fiora> maybe the "3D" is for "3 drain"??
01:40:06 <kmc> yeah i see
01:40:23 <elliott> it seems like there is a trend of moving stuff closer to the cpu anyway
01:40:36 <kmc> yeah DRAM is complicated... it's funny how if you look at any two parts that are "just wired together" you find they're really two machines speaking a protocol
01:40:45 <kmc> and this holds recursively to some depth
01:40:49 <elliott> eventually you will just buy a motherboard from intel where every part of the computer is on one big chip and all it has is USB ports
01:40:57 <Fiora> I remember reading about just how gigantic modern DRAM controllers were, like, they used up a significant part of the silicon or something
01:41:09 <elliott> kmc: does it hold within the CPU itself? I guess probably
01:41:22 <kmc> it's impossible to design something that big without abstractions and protocols
01:41:27 <Fiora> elliott: like, systems on a chip?
01:41:36 <kmc> like the cores on a single die have to execute a cache coherence protocol right
01:41:37 <Fiora> weren't they making like, an atom soc or something (?)
01:42:13 <kmc> sounds like something intel would do
01:42:16 <fizzie> *Someone* is making Atom SoCs, at least.
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01:42:35 <kmc> is it competitive with ARM SoCs in any way
01:42:44 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_%28system_on_chip%29
01:44:05 <shachaf> kmc: the whole thing in _The Door Into Summer_ where he gets engaged to a 12 year old is admittedly "a bit weird".......and also there's all the sexism and all that.........
01:44:09 <shachaf> but it's still a good book hth
01:44:18 <kmc> "Intel has announced that it won't provide support for Linux on Cloverview family of Atom systems-on-a-chip"
01:45:15 <elliott> system on a chip looks like that yes
01:49:12 <Fiora> I wish I knew more about this stuff though...
01:49:36 <Fiora> the instant the bits leave the core my knowledge drops to about zero...
01:51:13 <elliott> the instant the bits leave the screen my knowledge drops to zero
01:51:28 <elliott> ok let's say "disk" instead. except i don't know anything about the disk itself
01:51:57 <kmc> except when they don't
01:52:25 <Fiora> I think there's like magnets involved
01:52:27 <fizzie> When they don't, they just... solid around, right?
01:53:04 <elliott> kmc: i have one of those disks that doesn't spin
01:53:09 <elliott> i don't trust it because it doesn't make noises
01:53:23 <elliott> i have internalised that the act of storing data fundamentally requires little clicky noises
01:53:53 <kmc> shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDQOvzFetxs
02:00:16 <shachaf> kmc: just a quick questions if I chose to learn Haskell what are the benefits is it better the C/C++ will I be able to write dll ? or winapi etc
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02:08:42 <Bike> kmc: i don't get it, this cnn money thing is fucking hilarious
02:09:19 <elliott> kmc: if you join #haskell then shachaf and I won't paste you the worst of #haskell
02:09:53 <Bike> like how shachaf doesn't talk about ##crypto in here.
02:09:53 <shachaf> elliott: Uh, can I sign up for that deal?
02:14:57 <kmc> "Think you’ve evolved past your primordial urges to employ murder as a problem solving tool? Read:"
02:16:09 <kmc> the link is http://money.cnn.com/2013/06/13/technology/alex-banayan-vc.pr.fortune/index.html if you really want to murder someone
02:16:14 <kmc> or want to want to murder someone, anyway
02:16:52 <Bike> i mean it's just so over the top
02:17:28 <Bike> like, "The problem for VCs lusting after 18-year-old entrepreneurs is that they themselves are usually forty- and fiftysomethings"
02:20:20 <kmc> 'TechCrunch named it "douchebag app of the year."' <---- actual quote
02:20:38 <Bike> well yeah that playbook thing is pretty terrible.
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02:21:01 <kmc> 'Fontenot told him the demand was much bigger than what Facebook could handle.'
02:30:02 <kmc> Bike: don't miss the astroturfing in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5907253
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02:35:35 <elliott> Alex is the real deal! Never have I talked with someone and been so inspired! He has influence to source deals and has heard thousands of stories from entrepreneurs. I trust his expertise.
02:35:39 <elliott> I don't know. I still feel like a VC is taking a big risk on a hot-shot young hustler like this.
02:35:44 <elliott> Venture capital is literally all about taking big risks...
02:35:48 <elliott> Truth. So in that case why aren't other VC firms bringing on young hustlers like Alex here to build relationships and scout out young founders?
02:36:07 <Bike> wow i don't even have to open the link. you should start a VC firm for pasting things about VC firms into irc
02:36:12 <Bike> hot shot young hustler, jesus
02:36:35 -!- elliott has set topic: Hot shot young hustler Jesus | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric.
02:38:09 <shachaf> kmc: are you all ready to move to startupland
02:38:11 <kmc> if you want to read some more terrible things, Noisebridge is having a long argument about whether the violent guy with the "WHITE POWER" tattoo should be asked to leave https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-June/037346.html
02:38:20 <Bike> what's noisebridge
02:38:35 <kmc> SF hackerspace, prominent among hackerspaces nationally
02:38:47 <kmc> and world-class drama generator
02:38:56 <elliott> The name of the guy with the tattoos is Robbie, and he's a nice guy. I haven't seen Robby do anything that warranted being asked to leave. Of course, Robby might be nice to me because I am one of two people who bothered to introduce themselves to him.
02:39:06 <elliott> what's with all you weirdos not introducing yourself to a guy with a "white power" tattoo
02:39:26 <Bike> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-June/037410.html ahaha beautiful
02:39:47 <Bike> white power isn't always a racial slogan it's the rascist minds and race baiters that interpret it that way and want others to
02:40:13 <Bike> seriously though what is this, some kind of "hackrspace" thing or
02:40:29 <elliott> 03:38:35 <+kmc> SF hackerspace, prominent among hackerspaces nationally
02:40:38 <Bike> wow i missed that oops
02:41:16 <kmc> previous episodes include: Noisebridge lost all their money and nobody knows how; Noisebridge debates whether to let someone teach a class on cooking crystal meth; Noisebridge argues about whether people should inhale nitrous oxide in the hackerspace
02:41:29 <Bike> oh my god, some of these messages
02:41:38 <Bike> WHAT ABOUT A JEWISH GUY WITH A SWASTIKA TATTOO???
02:42:12 <Bike> oh somebody ragequit
02:42:13 <elliott> kmc: what was that other one
02:42:16 <Bike> yes this is good
02:42:24 <kmc> person emails noisebridge about the evils of flouridation
02:42:31 <Bike> You see my arguments as defending a racist and I see them as defending critical thinking.
02:42:40 <kmc> someone else compares this to 9/11 trutherism facetiously
02:42:46 <kmc> then the thread talks about 9/11 trutherism seriously for a while
02:43:02 <Bike> "There's no way that I could know how it feels to be beaten in the street for the color of my skin or know the weight of living under the burden of another groups privilege." are they like
02:43:10 <Bike> are we supposed to think "no, you do know that"
02:43:10 <myndzl> ((i*23831)>>18)*352>>5 -- can this be simplified further?
02:43:38 <Bike> good idea i will think about this question instead of continuing to read.
02:43:54 <shachaf> i've never been to noisebridge "should i go y/n"
02:43:59 <Bike> yes, you could replace the end with *63>>3, couldn't you?
02:44:17 <myndzl> i mean in terms of operations, not numbers
02:44:19 <Bike> wait, i guess not hm
02:44:24 <myndzl> i'm thinking about, say,
02:44:33 <myndzl> adding 352*2^18 in the multiplication
02:44:36 <Bike> no wait you could ok
02:44:38 <myndzl> but i don't think that works
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02:44:43 <kmc> https://www.noisebridge.net/pipermail/noisebridge-discuss/2013-June/037482.html
02:44:45 <myndzl> also how do you arrive at *63?
02:45:00 <Bike> bad arithmetic in my head :D
02:45:34 <Bike> i guess it would be *11
02:45:48 <Bike> since i mean, 352 = 11*2^5, is all
02:46:06 <myndzl> doesn't give the same result
02:46:21 <Bike> sorry i'm kind of out of it
02:46:26 <myndzl> dunno, but i was thinking similar
02:46:35 <myndzl> ((25*23831)>>18)*352>>5
02:46:36 <myndzl> ((25*23831)>>18)*11>>5
02:46:43 <Bike> i mean get rid of the >>5
02:47:16 <myndzl> that works but i am not quite sure wh-- nm i am
02:47:46 <Bike> fear my power, for i know basic arithmetic
02:47:53 <shachaf> kmc: btw when you move to sf are you going to get a night iphone and a day iphone
02:48:00 <kmc> no is that a thing
02:48:08 <shachaf> http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/my-phone/2013/03/dave-morin-path-facebook-apple
02:48:32 <shachaf> that thing is the best thing
02:48:49 <Bike> "I don’t use a ring of any kind on my phone. This is so that I am always on offense and never defense."
02:48:51 <elliott> like how [case] tells you that this guy referred to his fucking iphone case as a "walnut-back"
02:48:55 -!- myndzl has changed nick to myndzi.
02:49:03 <elliott> “They remind me of home and my values. The mountains are my soul.”
02:49:26 <elliott> “It’s a custom-designed, one-of-a-kind bespoke app I had built for my assistant and I to communicate and collaborate through.”
02:49:40 <Bike> "Editors curate the most important news stories of the day and break them down into basic points, quotes, and imagery" alright i gotta check this out
02:49:45 <elliott> i honestly think it must be a send-up of startup culture
02:49:56 <Bike> oh you have to get an app for this
02:53:32 <Bike> @msg #esoteric yes
02:54:34 <Bike> how do you even notice it
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02:55:37 <Bike> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
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02:58:38 <mnoqy> counting is for losers
03:00:10 <kmc> http://abadfortress.tumblr.com/
03:00:45 <elliott> this is not the dwarf fortress i know
03:00:46 <Bike> kmc: why does it look like link's awakening
03:01:48 <mnoqy> it looks more like pokemon
03:01:48 <kmc> http://25.media.tumblr.com/5e16dcd9ba738025b40d0e48424b9ceb/tumblr_moidwos8Y71spfoh9o3_1280.png
03:02:07 <kmc> i think it's a bootleg translation of japanese pokemon into english
03:02:08 <elliott> i literally scrolled down to it
03:02:14 <elliott> before clicking kmc's link
03:02:25 <mnoqy> The Power of Drugz
03:02:28 <elliott> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Schéma_synchronicité_in_English.png
03:02:32 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/ccd724c3a73588a5d203fdf0262e755d/tumblr_moidmnSzMS1spfoh9o3_1280.png
03:03:05 <Bike> is this vietnamese crystal
03:03:15 <elliott> vietnamese crystal sounds like a drug tbh
03:03:16 <kmc> if you scroll back enoguh then the blog is about dwarf fortress instead
03:03:30 <elliott> "i got some premium vietnamese crystal man, let's get fucked up"
03:03:34 <Bike> elliott: are you reading this, it pretty much is
03:04:08 <shachaf> hey is someone selling drugz
03:04:21 <shachaf> kmc: is santa cruz famous as a place to get drugz btw
03:04:24 <kmc> "Pokemon Vietnamese Crystal is a Vietnamese-to English translated version of Crystal that was sold as a bootleg in markets accross Vietnam in early 2001. Based on all of the place names and the names of the characters, it is most likely that this is a translation of the Chinese version of Crystal(which itself is an unofficial translation of the Japanese version"
03:04:38 <shachaf> kmc: one time i told someone that i had been to santa cruz in the evening and he thought it was for buying drugz
03:04:39 <kmc> shachaf: i guess
03:04:45 <Fiora> kmc: gosh, that reminds me of... what was it...
03:05:04 <Fiora> "Star War The Third Gathers: The Backstroke of the West"
03:05:11 <Bike> is that turkish star wars or
03:05:13 <Fiora> http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_War_The_Third_Gathers:_The_Backstroke_of_the_West
03:05:17 <Fiora> it was the bootlegged version with "DO NOT WANT"
03:05:33 <elliott> http://winterson.com/2005/06/episode-iii-backstroke-of-west.html
03:06:23 <Bike> "amazingly enough, the beginning scroll is mistranslated even though the words are right there on the screen" good
03:06:49 <Bike> Our dichotomy opens the combat
03:07:14 <elliott> this seemed completely random until i figured out that 'jedi council' was being translated into chinese then back to english as 'the presbyterian church'.
03:07:35 <kmc> http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005195.html in depth examination of how the word 'fuck' ends up in so many translations from chinese
03:07:45 <kmc> attn Bike, other language nerds
03:08:14 <Bike> wow do i qualify as a language nerd now
03:08:48 <elliott> bike: biologist, linguist, bicycle.
03:09:01 <Bike> the bike, the myth, the legend
03:09:08 <shachaf> linguists are the worst thing
03:09:12 <mnoqy> shut up shachaf!!!!!
03:09:16 <mnoqy> shut up!!!!!!!!!!!
03:09:31 <shachaf> today i speak up against linguists!
03:10:01 <shachaf> first they didn't come for the statisticians
03:10:12 <shachaf> and i didn't speak up because i didn't hate statisticians
03:11:19 <kmc> i like that the investigation involves finding the chinese-language forum where chinese people make fun of bad chinese -> english translations
03:13:10 <shachaf> mnoqy: wait you're not a linguist are you
03:14:12 <kmc> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Gan10.jpg Correct translation: "Dry Seasonings Section"
03:14:59 <kmc> http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Gan11.jpg this would be a great if aggressive motto
03:21:02 <kmc> a fast ether lord fucking net ascending
03:21:24 <Bike> that's my tagline on dating sites
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03:28:04 <elliott> wow these birds outside are making annoying noises.
03:28:08 <elliott> it's like they want me to not sleep.
03:28:25 <elliott> the kind that makes annoying noises at 4 am
03:28:40 <kmc> yeah i think it was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Scrub_Jay
03:28:56 <kmc> nice looking bird imo
03:29:07 <shachaf> what's a not nice looking bird iyo
03:29:07 <elliott> imo the birds here make worse noises than the birds in the other place in hexham i've lived
03:29:15 <elliott> those made soothing oo oo noises
03:29:37 <kmc> http://thearchnemesis.com/Ugly-Birds.html
03:30:03 <kmc> i agree with these except pigeon
03:30:08 <kmc> i think pigeons are pretty
03:30:20 <kmc> don't think so
03:30:34 <kmc> are you a seagull
03:30:41 <shachaf> oh, you're calling my personality ugly
03:30:53 <Bike> "We will assume the validity of the axiom of choice without further ado" ruh roh
03:30:54 <shachaf> https://translate.google.com/#iw/en/%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%A3 hth
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03:31:29 <kmc> huh interesting
03:31:43 <kmc> ftr i don't think seagulls are ugly either
03:31:58 <Bike> Introductory Real Analysis by Kolmogorov
03:32:06 <Bike> (obviously it goes on to mention The Controversy)
03:32:22 <shachaf> kmc: _The Door into Summer_ has a bunch of great things about cats.
03:32:57 <Bike> i can't really imagine a well ordering of the reals......................
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03:33:22 <elliott> Bike: don't worry in type theory you get the axiom of choice as a theorem without getting a well-ordering of the reals!
03:33:27 <elliott> It's The Best Of Both Worlds
03:33:29 <kmc> is that so
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03:33:47 <Bike> you can prove choice from well-ordering i thought
03:33:47 <elliott> kmc: http://r6.ca/blog/20050604T143800Z.html "my favourite blog post"
03:33:53 <elliott> Bike: yes but that's in set theory.
03:34:03 <Bike> oh boy some other thing
03:34:50 <Bike> "The key difference between set theory and type theory is that in set theory one can form quotient sets for arbitrary equivalence relations" who needs it anyway
03:35:24 <kmc> is the quotient set the set of equivalence classes?
03:35:24 <shachaf> elliott: more favourite than.......................... http://r6research.livejournal.com/27071.html
03:36:56 <elliott> you can do quotient types they just have to be different I think
03:36:59 <Bike> it's cool how i'll apparently never find any foundation ever completely intuitive
03:37:01 <elliott> maybe nobody has worked out all the details yet
03:37:16 <Bike> o well i'm just a bikeologist
03:37:24 <shachaf> Bike: How did you initially come to #esoteric, anyway?
03:37:25 <elliott> but I'm pretty sure you don't have to give in to the axiom of choice for them :P
03:37:38 <Bike> shachaf: i think sgeo.
03:38:36 <elliott> copumpkin: you should play our new game
03:38:42 <Bike> "it was recently shown by Cohen that an affirmatie answer to the question is also consistent" wow this is pretty old
03:38:43 <elliott> it's trying to convince kmc to come back to #haskell some more!
03:39:13 <shachaf> elliott: kmc will come to #haskell if he wants to
03:39:26 <Sgeo> kmc, that's for bringing Bike here?
03:39:26 <Bike> we can hask if we want to, we can leave our friends behind
03:39:37 <copumpkin> kmc: hey, wanna come back to #haskell? I'll give you +v
03:39:58 <copumpkin> that's basically like a million bucks
03:40:29 <kmc> copumpkin: maybe later
03:40:39 <Bike> you know i think something i liked about taocp was: no fucking foundations
03:40:46 <Bike> just billions and billions of combinatoric identities
03:40:50 <Bike> all math books should be like that imo.
03:41:00 <elliott> Bike: i think you'll find that foundations rule and everything on top is boring as hell
03:41:24 <Bike> you should do reverse mathematics instead
03:41:32 <Bike> sort of involves foundations + is crazy + isn't foundations
03:41:51 <Bike> what if you did it with type theories instead of set theories
03:41:55 <Bike> "be an innovator"
03:42:34 <elliott> kmc: "learn lisp or ocaml along with haskell" -- #haskell
03:43:02 <Bike> learn snobol or ia32 along with haskell
03:43:29 <Sgeo> elliott, erm... the lisp bit was my fault >.>
03:43:48 <mnoqy> what the heck is metaprogramming and who needs it
03:44:00 <mnoqy> id say things in #haskell but heck no im not doing that
03:44:08 <Bike> it's where you incessantly make jokes about "i never meta [thing] i didn't like" automatically
03:45:11 <shachaf> haskell/11.05.04:12:42:05 <monqy> C++ exists. this is a bad design decision.
03:45:20 <mnoqy> o god dont grep for me
03:45:23 <mnoqy> stop it stop it stop it
03:45:24 <mnoqy> stop it stop it stop it
03:45:47 -!- mnoqy has left.
03:46:00 <shachaf> i already stopped grepping :'(
03:46:12 <Bike> maybe you shouldn't grep in the first place
03:46:19 <Bike> maybe i should skip the set theory stuff and get ti hilbertian spaces
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03:51:01 <ion> @ask shachaf That was not a question.
03:51:19 <Sgeo> shachaf, even if it's a three letter language? >.>
03:51:49 <Sgeo> Oh, there are actually good three letter languages like Tcl
03:51:53 <Sgeo> And Lua I guess
03:52:07 <shachaf> how about bashing Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
03:52:17 <Bike> imo that would be worth a kickban
03:52:28 <ion> bankicks are better.
03:52:39 <shachaf> elliott kickbanned someone today "it was weird"
03:53:09 -!- sprocklem has joined.
03:53:31 <ion> Are you sure that was the order?
03:53:50 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [+o elliott] by ChanServ
03:53:50 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- fwe was kicked from #haskell by elliott [fwe]
03:53:51 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [+b *!*ssjsj@31.205.67.*] by elliott
03:53:51 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [-o shachaf] by elliott
03:53:51 <shachaf> 17:33 -!- mode/#haskell [-o elliott] by elliott
03:54:00 <shachaf> My favorite part was the part where he -oed me.
03:54:17 <ion> Curious. Those lines reached me in a bankick order.
03:54:28 <Sgeo> http://enet.bespin.org/
03:54:36 <Sgeo> What's the difference between that and Tcp?
03:54:39 <ion> It’s almost as if IRC doesn’t preserve global ordering!
03:54:46 <Sgeo> Oh, that's in the FAQ
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04:02:54 <elliott> hey Bike annoy me until isleep
04:03:10 <shachaf> Bike: talk about linguistics
04:03:30 <Bike> so, have you heard about call/cc being used in linguistics
04:03:51 <shachaf> oh boy i'm getting irritated already
04:04:03 <shachaf> if elliott is anything like me he'll go to sleep straight away
04:05:51 <Bike> i guess the idea is something about continuations being isomorphic to xbars
04:06:57 <elliott> Bike: i feel as if you are serving shachaf more than i
04:07:15 <shachaf> elliott: Bike is serving me more than you're serving me?
04:07:24 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
04:07:34 <Bike> how do you feel about computable reals not being compact
04:08:40 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
04:08:51 <Bike> or: http://python-history.blogspot.com/2009/03/problem-with-integer-division.html
04:09:08 <Bike> i dunno i assume the more i talk about anything the more annoyed you'll get b/c you hate bicycles
04:10:07 <elliott> "So, originally you couldn’t add an int to a float, or even an int to a long. After Python was released publicly, Tim Peters quickly convinced me that this was a really bad idea" fuck
04:10:16 <elliott> just backtrack on your only good decision ever or whatever
04:11:11 <shachaf> Bike: I don't hate bicycles!
04:11:18 <shachaf> Bike: Why is your nick "Bike", anyway?
04:12:02 <Bike> um i wasn't talking to you
04:12:07 <Bike> elliott's the h8r
04:19:52 <kmc> elliott: eh i'm not a fan of implicit conversions, but there is a real usability issue there that shouldn't be ignored
04:20:39 <kmc> it was definitely a mistake to have integer division truncate, though
04:20:43 <kmc> and one they've fixed in python 3
04:22:04 <Bike> This is one of the most important steps right here. WEAR CLOTHES! I can not stress this enough. Some of us enjoy naked gaming, but this is one of the comforts we have to give up in exchange for a streamlined pizza ordering process.
04:22:17 <elliott> kmc: well i would be okay with "implicit conversions" if they actually worked ~like mathematics~ but that's sort of an impossible goal
04:22:34 <elliott> i.e. if 1+0.5+0.5 was 2 and that 2 behaved "as an integer" wherever the distinction is relevant
04:22:39 <elliott> upcasting to float is just silly
04:23:14 <Bike> ide/theory: math is impossible
04:23:36 <kmc> elliott: i hate to say it but there's some appeal to JavaScript's solution
04:24:01 <Bike> make everything floats?
04:24:41 <elliott> something like a mathematica-ish "everything is an expression and only done 'numerically' where precision can be maintained and then things like 'is an integer' is just a (possibly-undecidable) predicate" or whatever could work okay
04:25:03 <elliott> Bike: you're not being annoying enough yet btw
04:25:14 <shachaf> elliott: can i be annoying
04:25:21 <Bike> god since when do you have standards for being annoyed
04:25:23 <kmc> Bike: yeah, or more generally having only one numeric type
04:25:28 <shachaf> (not asking whether i should, just whether i can)
04:25:33 <kmc> only rationals would be p. cool
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04:25:39 <kmc> fuck the square root of 2
04:25:42 <Bike> i dunno if i like that because it varies by application etc
04:25:44 <shachaf> kmc: cyclotomic numbers hth
04:25:52 <shachaf> kmc: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/cyclotomic/0.3.1/doc/html/Data-Complex-Cyclotomic.html
04:25:59 <kmc> of course you could ask for an approximation of sqrt of 2 to within IEEE 754 double precision anyway
04:26:00 <elliott> rationals with just dumb approximations for things like sqrt could work.....
04:26:06 <Bike> i like how doing math is like the first thing programming was for and we still haven't agreed on how to do it
04:26:14 <Bike> elliott: imo we should use continued fractions
04:26:22 <kmc> the first thing programming was for was killing nazis
04:26:45 <kmc> shachaf: that's nice
04:26:58 <Bike> or maybe just algebraics
04:27:00 <elliott> Bike: continued fractions are cute as hell
04:27:04 <Bike> do we need transcendental numbers, really? imo no.
04:27:11 <kmc> what are they actually
04:27:26 <kmc> "the rational field extended with nth roots of unity for arbitrarily large integers n" i guess
04:27:46 <Bike> "In number theory, a cyclotomic field is a number field obtained by adjoining a complex primitive root of unity to Q, the field of rational numbers."
04:27:50 <Bike> i guess that's straightforward enough.
04:28:12 <Bike> how are they represented?
04:28:34 <elliott> you don't care about me at all
04:28:34 <shachaf> data Cyclotomic = Cyclotomic { order :: Integer , coeffs :: M.Map Integer Rational } deriving (Eq)
04:28:45 <shachaf> elliott: you're being really annoying right now btw
04:28:49 <elliott> kmc: its sure that microcontroller are not suitable for functionnal programming
04:28:50 <Bike> haha as a polynomial, awesome.
04:28:53 <shachaf> elliott: maybe direct your annoyingness at yourself instead of at Bike
04:28:53 <elliott> microcontroller have not enough ram for recursion
04:29:49 <Bike> good representations of polynomials are something i should understand better really
04:31:57 <shachaf> hey Bike do you know the puzzle where you come up with some polynomial where all the coëfficients are nonnegative integers and tell me its value at any (positive) point and then i ask you for its value at another point
04:32:10 <Bike> yeah, i think.
04:38:41 <shachaf> kmc: do you like algorithm, data structure, special thing, other paradigm...
04:39:03 <Sgeo> shachaf, isn't that related to that secret sharing thing? I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to
04:39:17 <shachaf> Sgeo: I don't know what secret sharing thing, but probably not.
04:39:18 <Sgeo> With sufficient points, you learn the polynomial, with insufficient points, you learn nothing
04:39:38 <shachaf> I only need to ask for one point.
04:39:43 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamir's_Secret_Sharing
04:40:06 <Sgeo> Oh, then I have no idea
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05:05:18 <Bike> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/88757/nice-well-orderings-of-the-reals agh
05:06:37 <tswett> Shamir's Secret Sharing sounds like a spell in DC:SS.
05:09:05 <Sgeo> And here I thought "well-ordering of the reals" meant something incredibly trivial and obvious
05:09:17 <Bike> lol how'd you think that
05:09:39 <Sgeo> I have no idea what "Lebesgue measurable" means
05:10:04 <tswett> Ooh, I know what it means. Uh, almost. Lemme think.
05:10:42 <Bike> the lebesgue measure of an interval is just the high minus the low.
05:10:49 <Bike> then you build up unions, etc.
05:10:59 <Bike> then you run into vitali sets and become the unabomber.
05:11:02 <Sgeo> So how is it a Boolean?
05:11:15 <tswett> First, there's this thing called the "outer measure" of a set.
05:11:21 <Bike> who the hell said anything about bools
05:11:21 <Sgeo> "Question: is it equiconsistent with reasonable large cardinals that there is a well-ordering of the reals which - as a relation on R2 - is Lebesgue measurable?"
05:11:30 <kmc> tswett: re shamir: yes
05:11:34 <Bike> what does that have to do with bools
05:11:39 <shachaf> http://shachaf.net/what-about-this-channel.txt
05:11:46 <kmc> zero-knowledge proofs would be a good RPG power as well
05:11:58 <Sgeo> "This well-ordering is Lebesgue measurable" vs "This well-ordering is not Lebesgue measurable"
05:12:03 <tswett> So let's say that a "boxing" of a set S is a countable set T of closed boxes, such that the union of T is a superset of S.
05:12:21 <Bike> Sgeo: that's whether you /can/ measure it, i.e. that it has a measure, not what that measure is.
05:12:38 <Bike> vitali sets are non-measurable, so's the well-ordering (as a relation in the usual construction of relations)
05:12:54 <tswett> The measure of a boxing is just the sum of the sizes of all of the boxes. The outer measure of a set is the infimum of the measures of all of its boxings.
05:13:03 <Sgeo> I'm going to go to sleep
05:13:06 <Bike> named after a guy named Vitali.
05:13:46 <tswett> Now, for all sets that have Lebesgue measure, the Lebesgue measure is equal to the outer measure. And a set is Lebesgue measurable if and only if it has a Lebesgue measure.
05:13:58 <tswett> So the only remaining question is: what does it mean for a set to be measurable?
05:14:19 <tswett> And the answer is, uh...
05:14:43 <Sgeo> I'm going to get some sleep. Sleep off the sleep deprivation drunk
05:14:51 <Sgeo> Whuch is different from actual drjnk
05:14:52 <tswett> I dunno. Lemme look it up.
05:15:00 <Sgeo> I don't like 'actual' stuff very much
05:15:40 <Sgeo> I don't do genetic manipulation of actual animals, I don't get actual drunk
05:15:51 <Bike> missing out imo
05:16:02 <Bike> have you considered getting mutants drunk
05:16:10 <tswett> Okay. A set S is measurable if and only if for all sets A, the outer measure of A is the outer measure of A \ S plus the outer measure of A intersect S.
05:17:24 <Sgeo> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/137657/is-there-a-well-ordering-of-the-reals-measurable-or-not?lq=1
05:17:29 <Sgeo> I'm even more confused now
05:17:41 <tswett> Oh hey, I got the Nice Question badge for this question: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11870884/vim-says-no-mouse-support-but-only-when-i-run-git-commit
05:18:02 * Sgeo 's brain elided the word 'Nice'
05:18:11 <Sgeo> So, Question badge...
05:18:38 <Bike> "Is there a well-ordering of the reals after all, measurable or not?" lolololol
05:18:57 <shachaf> Do you get a badge at 50 answerpoints?
05:18:58 <Bike> Sgeo: if you want to talk about it before you sleep, what's confusing
05:19:18 <Sgeo> Bike, how the answer isn't trivially yes
05:19:41 <Bike> Ok, so, what's a well ordering?
05:20:30 <Sgeo> How there could exist two reals, a and b, for which none of (a < b) (a > b) (a = b) is correct. I guess there's more to it, such as consistency when c is introduced?
05:20:41 <Bike> That's not a well order.
05:20:43 <shachaf> Bike: you know the sorcerer's apprentice? it's kind of like that
05:20:44 <Bike> That's just a total order.
05:20:58 <Bike> A well order is a total order + every subset has a least element.
05:21:46 <Sgeo> Rationals aren't well-ordered then either, I think
05:21:48 <Bike> < isn't a well order on the reals. For example, consider the nonzero positive reals.
05:22:01 <tswett> Yeah, the usual ordering on the rational orders isn't well.
05:22:03 <Bike> But, if you have the axiom of choice you can show that a well order does exist.
05:22:07 <Bike> scandalous, I know
05:22:10 <tswett> Nor is the usual ordering on the integers.
05:23:01 <shachaf> Hmm... Does the C spec actually specify there can't be more than 2^(CHAR_BIT * sizeof(void *)) distinct values of type void *?
05:23:45 <Bike> does the C spec ever talk about cardinalities of types
05:24:01 <shachaf> Well, the question is whether C can be Turing-complete this way.
05:24:41 <Bike> would that include those int ptr things
05:24:44 <Fiora> it's okay to access a void* pointer as a bunch of uint8_t, right? by aliasing rules
05:24:53 <Fiora> so you could use that to show that constraint applies
05:24:56 <lifthrasiir> I think it is totally valid to limit the possible values of void* to 32...
05:25:14 <lifthrasiir> hmm, wait, 32 is too small, let's say it'd be 4096.
05:25:59 <Fiora> shachaf: like, if sizeof(void*) is x, and you access it as a series of x char values, then each char can have at most 2^CHAR_BIT values, so....?
05:26:23 <Fiora> I don't know, just a guess >_<
05:26:35 <Bike> How many uint8_t do you need
05:26:36 <shachaf> Can you actually access it as a series of x char values, I mean?
05:26:39 <lifthrasiir> Fiora: not exactly, since some representations of void* can be declared invalid. same goes for integers.
05:26:39 <Bike> sizeof(void*)?
05:28:01 <lifthrasiir> Fiora: let me quote a footnote in C99: In particular, if == is defined for type T, then x == y does not imply that memcmp(&x, &y, sizeof (T)) == 0.
05:28:07 <Fiora> lifthrasiir: it can be an upper bound though, right?
05:28:22 <Fiora> like it can't be a lower bound, but it can be an upper one, which is what shachaf asked for, right? or did I misunderstand
05:28:50 <Fiora> shachaf: void *y; char *x = (char*)&y; I guess?
05:29:23 <shachaf> Fiora: Well, sure you can write that code. I'm not sure whether it's actually allowed.
05:29:27 <lifthrasiir> yeah, it is guaranteed that a conformant C program cannot access the infinite memory (but it can access the arbitrarily large memory).
05:29:40 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: Guaranteed where?
05:29:59 <lifthrasiir> uh, sorry, wait a min, I may have misread the spec,
05:30:08 <lifthrasiir> I thought intptr_t is mandatory but it wasn't
05:30:18 <Fiora> intptr_t is mandatory in C99, I think?
05:30:24 <lifthrasiir> (any integer types including intptr_t are guaranteed to be finite)
05:30:37 <Fiora> but like, intptr_t is just "a type big enough to hold any pointer", isn't it? like, it's allowed to be bigger than void*
05:30:54 <shachaf> Well, it's still an upper bound, like you said.
05:30:57 <lifthrasiir> yes, so I thought it is an ultimate upper bound.
05:31:15 <shachaf> I guess if you're allowed to cast to intptr_t and back that's enough...
05:31:18 <Fiora> it could be larger than 2^(sizeof(void*)*CHAR_BIT)... right...?
05:31:40 <shachaf> The goal was to figure out whether you can make a Turing-complete implementation of C, though.
05:32:15 <lifthrasiir> hmm, sizeof() is guaranteed to return a finite result (the value of the result is implementation-defined, and not an undefined behavior)
05:32:44 <Fiora> sorry, I didn't realize the context
05:32:52 <shachaf> lifthrasiir: void * has a finite sizeof.
05:33:06 <shachaf> The question was whether via a tricky reading of the rules you could have more than that many void * values.
05:33:22 <shachaf> (Well, in particular infinitely many.)
05:33:39 <shachaf> The intptr_t argument seems convincing, I guess.
05:34:18 <shachaf> Hmm, my stackoverflow question is up to 50 votes.
05:34:20 <lifthrasiir> since C requires every non-bit-field values ("objects" in the spec) to be stored as an array of bytes of CHAR_BIT bits
05:34:50 <lifthrasiir> such representation is explicitly called an "object representation"
05:34:58 <lifthrasiir> and should exist for any non-bit-field values
05:35:31 <lifthrasiir> (in fact, this also prohibits a native implementation of C in ternary computers)
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05:46:29 <kmc> hey there are four operating RBMK reactors (Chernobyl design) about 233 km from Helsinki
05:50:11 <kmc> and 70 km from St. Petersburg
05:50:28 <Bike> are they like, upgraded
05:50:40 <kmc> don't know
05:51:00 <kmc> it's a fundamentally unsafe design
05:52:45 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK#Design_flaws_and_safety_issues
05:52:56 <kmc> "based on 1950s Soviet technology and optimized for speed of production over redundancy, the RBMK was designed and constructed with several design characteristics that proved dangerously unstable when operated outside their design specifications"
05:52:58 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RBMK#Design_flaws_and_safety_issues
05:55:20 <kmc> soviet power plus irradiation of the whole country
05:56:28 <kmc> the link mentions a few post-chernobyl improvements
05:58:22 <kmc> not that comforting
05:58:55 <Bike> "Legasov's death from suicide, " uh, whoa
06:01:34 <Bike> "Scram is usually cited as being an acronym for safety control rod axe man"
06:02:12 <Bike> «When I showed up on the balcony on that December 2, 1942 afternoon, I was ushered to the balcony rail, handed a well sharpened fireman's ax and told, "if the safety rods fail to operate, cut that manila rope."» haha
06:02:28 <kmc> the life of a grad student
06:03:00 <kmc> "Although Koehler did not serve as a rope-cutting control rod axe-man, he was responsible for dumping a bucket of aqueous cadmium solution into the reactor if reactor period entered into the sub-optimal range"
06:03:04 <kmc> "the sub-optimal range"
06:08:08 <oklopol> "at which point the rods would fall by gravity into the reactor core"
06:09:06 <oklopol> i'm not in the same article anymore.
06:09:30 <oklopol> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scram i'm in this one in case you aren't doing the exact same random walk.
06:10:02 <oklopol> i didn't get there from the link but from googling what you said.
06:11:50 <oklopol> weird cultural difference i guess.
06:12:40 <oklopol> really there's never a need to link something if the other person happens to have google
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06:58:20 <kmc> what / why
06:58:56 <shachaf> oh i made it for a different channel but then i decided not to spam
06:58:59 <kmc> what is it tho
06:59:02 <kmc> also i think i saw it before
06:59:10 <shachaf> this might be a new version
06:59:30 <shachaf> (not to spam "that channel" i mean...................well this channel might be unspammable)
06:59:53 <shachaf> kmc: when are you inventing the esolang "Main Page."..............................
07:00:04 <HackEgo> kmc: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:00:14 <kmc> later / neer
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07:59:50 <oerjan> <Bike> the school i'm enrolled in it super hilly, to the extent that there's a place called Johnson Flats, which is not flat and is on a hill <-- wait aren't you in luxembourg i'm confuse
08:00:33 <oerjan> or at least somewhere european without english as first language
08:01:41 <oerjan> canada is not somewhere european without english as first language, olsner
08:02:27 <kmc> isn't Bike in washington state usa
08:03:40 <oerjan> qwest.net seems to be owned by centurylink, which looks distinctly us
08:03:40 <olsner> oerjan: ok, sorry for trying :(
08:04:07 <oerjan> kmc: I'VE BEEN DECEIVED
08:06:37 <oerjan> <elliott> oerjan made the neighbour prediction before taneb said he lived in northumberland <-- i think north (east?) england had been mentioned, though
08:08:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.24031
08:09:57 <Taneb> I had said Northern
08:10:08 <Taneb> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2011-07-12#195258oerjan
08:12:40 <oerjan> was just looking for that
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08:20:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastaquotes: not found
08:20:59 <HackEgo> 973) <Sgeo> I think pastaquote should just quote me
08:30:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28558
08:31:04 <oerjan> wtf there are no atriq quotes
08:32:00 <oerjan> i can only conclude that atriq is your bumbling hyde personality
08:32:18 <Taneb> Maybe atriq is the Jekyll!
08:32:29 <oerjan> anyway, not very eloquent
08:32:51 <Taneb> Or maybe I just didn't use atriq as much
08:32:55 <oerjan> wait i just wondered...
08:33:31 <oerjan> no there cannot be any trailing space because it wasn't made by nick completion
08:33:53 <Taneb> I didn't do `pastequotes atriq because I knew there weren't any
08:33:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16568
08:34:29 <oerjan> this cannot be right either
08:34:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.2234
08:35:09 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27739
08:35:51 <oerjan> apparently there really are no quotes where Taneb is followed by space
08:36:01 <oerjan> sadly, this doesn't help with atriq
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08:40:08 <oerjan> <Taneb> Nobody knows what happened to Facekicker for the past 8 years, though
08:40:28 <oerjan> are we _really_ absolutely sure they're different elliotts twh
08:40:42 <Taneb> Yeah, Facekicker's actually an Eliot
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08:41:40 <oerjan> we might assume facekicker went on to a promising career in either kung fu movies or crime.
08:46:05 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> if you google elliott hird it's a mix of elliott and a kitchen planner
08:46:21 <oerjan> clearly his blog needs more posts hth
08:52:40 <oerjan> `addquote <ion> “Haiers Medical-Circular Stapler For Rectal Prolapse And Hemorrhoids.wmv” /me refrains from clicking <olsner> good choice <ion> Yes, i’m pretty happy about it.
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08:52:44 <HackEgo> 1056) <ion> “Haiers Medical-Circular Stapler For Rectal Prolapse And Hemorrhoids.wmv” /me refrains from clicking <olsner> good choice <ion> Yes, i’m pretty happy about it.
08:52:58 <HackEgo> 2013-06-20 08:02:27: <kmc> isn't Bike in washington state usa
08:53:08 <HackEgo> 2013-06-20 08:53:04: <shachaf> `seen shachaf
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09:03:15 <shachaf> http://modernjavascript.blogspot.com/2013/06/monads-in-plain-javascript.html
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11:19:04 <HackEgo> dedda1994: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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12:52:30 <ion> shachaf: This is best monad tutorial.
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16:12:45 <elliott> does anyone know about the identify-msg IRC CAP
16:14:55 <Bike> sounds like bullshit
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17:21:50 <tswett> If you have a bunch of groups, all of different sizes, then the groups are totally ordered by order.
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17:25:41 <oerjan> tswett: that's like totally rad
17:25:50 <olsner> actually, hello *everybody*
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17:26:05 <Bike> hello everybody except clog and elliott
17:26:17 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/mcdonalds-considering-franchising-restaurants-afte,32897/
17:26:58 <tswett> Hello, everybody in all possible worlds.
17:27:51 <olsner> wow, that's awefully inclusive of you
17:27:58 <Bike> The world is changing, and frankly we’re running out of family members who speak Mandarin
17:31:10 <oerjan> btw did you know mcdonalds isn't a trademark in scotland, and they need the actual clan's permission to use it?
17:32:14 <Gregor> That explains why they only sell the McHaggis Quarter Pounder with Bladder there.
17:32:58 <elliott> fun fact: McDonald's was originally named cDonald's, after the theorem. the famous arches were originally circular.
17:33:46 <elliott> oh i guess using "circular" ruins that
17:34:01 <oerjan> there's a cDonald theorem?
17:34:20 <Bike> haven't you seen look around you.
17:34:31 <Bike> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cDonald's%20Theorem
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17:34:50 <elliott> oerjan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J9MRYJz9-4#t=24s
17:36:08 <Bike> i love how they pronounce "cDonald"
17:38:43 <oerjan> hm i'm wondering if what i said was actually true.
17:39:14 <oerjan> the following looks like a counterargument: "The company has threatened many food businesses with legal action unless it drops the Mc or Mac from trading names. In one noteworthy case, McDonald's sued a Scottish café owner called McDonald, even though the business in question dated back over a century (Sheriff Court Glasgow and Strathkelvin, November 21, 1952)."
17:40:30 <Gregor> MacGregor's Quarter Pounder with Scotch
17:43:33 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, the clan thing might have been established later
17:49:24 <oerjan> hm looks more and more dubious
17:49:57 <oerjan> which makes me wonder where i first read it
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18:26:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Fortunately, there's no requirement at all for "did you know that X?" statements to actually be true.
18:26:52 <oerjan> s/Fortunately,/did you know that/ hth
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18:35:51 <elliott> ion: hi do you know about identify-msg CAP
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18:37:53 <ion> I know now.
18:38:40 <elliott> but do you know enough to answer my questions about it
18:39:02 <ion> Let me travel to the future to find out.
18:44:13 <fizzie> It's a cap, and when you equip it, it may randomly identify items hth
18:46:27 <ion> fizzie: Sorry, no. It only identities monosodium glutamate.
18:49:15 <oerjan> sounds like something triangle and robert could have used
18:56:42 <Taneb> Why the hell do I like PHP on Facebook
18:59:16 <Taneb> Well, I don't any more
19:03:52 <Bike> php has a facebook?
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19:27:07 <kmc> meet hot single in YOUR area who like PHP
19:28:07 <elliott> meet hot shot young hustler jesus in your area
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19:34:35 <Fiora> https://www.facebook.com/PHP wow
19:35:14 <Bike> "Yeah! Not a day to soon. Death to C# and java B)"
19:35:50 <Bike> the changelog's a bit scary
19:35:52 <Bike> Added ARMv7/v8 versions of various Zend arithmetic functions that are implemented using inline assembler
19:36:04 <ion> I have three FB friends who like PHP. D-:
19:36:11 <Bike> oh man they added finally. finally
19:36:16 <Fiora> Wow, they're already doing ARMv8 stuff
19:36:23 <kmc> every time someone mentions Zend i think of Zond
19:36:41 <Bike> kneel before zend
19:36:52 <kmc> and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N1_rocket
19:36:56 <Bike> "Added support for using empty() on the result of function calls and other expressions" huh?
19:37:03 <kmc> "Each of the four attempts to launch an N1 failed; during the second launch attempt the N1 rocket crashed back onto its launch pad shortly after liftoff and exploded, resulting in one of the largest artificial non-nuclear explosion in human history"
19:37:13 <Fiora> wooow. 30 main engines @_@
19:37:33 <Bike> "Fixed bug #64515 (Memoryleak when using the same variablename 2times in function declaration)" um
19:37:39 <Phantom_Hoover> entertainingly those engines are actually the ones being used in the 'new' nasa cargo rocket they were showing off a while back
19:37:44 <kmc> "After detecting the inoperative fuel pump, the automatic engine control shut off 29 of 30 engines, which caused the rocket to fall."
19:37:48 <kmc> good programming imo
19:38:13 <Bike> oh, wait, i've heard of N1, isn't it the one that vaporized half the engineers in the soviet union
19:38:21 <elliott> 20:36:55 <Bike> "Added support for using empty() on the result of function calls and other expressions" huh?
19:38:26 <elliott> php has a lot of nice things which only work on variable names
19:38:34 <Fiora> isn't 30 engines like a redundancy nightmare? @_@ that's a lot of parts
19:38:37 <Bike> elliott: good, good
19:38:41 <elliott> you have to assign stuff to variables a lot to be able to like index them as arrays or whatever
19:38:42 <Fiora> if just one fails it'd throw things off balance, right?
19:39:11 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: oh
19:39:21 <Phantom_Hoover> if you have 30 then it's not that big a torque and you might be able to correct with your control systems
19:39:27 <kmc> yeah i thought it was an R-7 test
19:39:34 <Phantom_Hoover> that's what they did when one of the engines in the falcon 9 test failed
19:39:36 <Bike> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=64523 what the /hell/
19:39:49 <Bike> When destination folder of a copy haven't enough place, copy reports success instead of failure.
19:40:22 <Bike> Fixed bug #64895 (Integer overflow in SndToJewish)
19:41:01 <elliott> kmc: can i hire you to work out how to get a good deal on EC2 for me
19:41:10 <Bike> i think it's about the hebrew calendar?
19:41:20 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: gazetteer get-shapr get-topic ghc girl19 google googleit gsite gwiki v @ ? .
19:41:26 <Bike> @google jdtojewish
19:41:27 <lambdabot> http://php.net/manual/en/function.jdtojewish.php
19:41:32 <Bike> what the hell is girl19
19:41:48 <Bike> "Converts a Julian day count to a Jewish calendar date"
19:41:50 <Bike> yeah i need that.
19:42:08 <kmc> that should definitely be in the default global namespace
19:43:05 <Bike> man it doesn't even report a bad value, it just hangs
19:43:10 <Bike> how great is that
19:43:33 <Bike> «That is, you cannot do `SELF::CNST` or `SELF::$VAR` or `SELF::METHOD()`. But it's possible to use `constant("SELF::CNST")` or `call_user_func` with uppercase `SELF` keyword.»
19:44:06 <Bike> «if use '@', you can call function in a string substitution context.» help
19:44:35 <kmc> paging elliott
19:44:44 <elliott> i should put a highlight on @
19:44:46 <Bike> elliott: https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=61681 you need this feature, imo
19:45:45 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? .
19:45:54 <Bike> this seems dumb
19:45:55 <lambdabot> I've always found myself unequal to the intellectual pressure of programming
19:46:01 <lambdabot> girl19 wonders what "discriminating hackers" are.
19:46:04 <lambdabot> I have stolen about 50 msn and yahoo accounts
19:46:04 <lambdabot> am I supposed to be frantic with terror and anxiety?
19:46:17 <Bike> y'all need a db of all these damn injokes
19:46:33 <Bike> oh hey. "This extension is now deprecated, and deprecation warnings will be generated when connections are established to databases via mysql_connect(), mysql_pconnect(), or through implicit connection: use MySQLi or PDO_MySQL instead"
19:46:36 <shachaf> elliott: hey i have a lambdabot proposal "can you guess what it is"
19:46:43 <Bike> i wonder how many security bugs that would remove
19:46:52 <kmc> it's great how there's no uniform db api in php
19:46:58 <kmc> totally different functions for mysql, postgres, etc
19:47:06 <elliott> wonder whether i should remove the unique prefix behaviour along with the specialcasing of unique spell corrections
19:47:15 <Bike> Generator is an internal class, so there shouldn't be an ability to create it by hand. However, the Generator class doesn't have a private constructor and instance of it can be created via ReflectionClass.
19:47:19 <Bike> Solution: add a private constructor for this class to prevent instantiation (like for Closure class).
19:47:22 <Bike> awesome and rad
19:47:32 <shachaf> I was thinking more along the lines of removing @girl19.
19:47:51 <Bike> Fixed bug #60097 (token_get_all fails to lex nested heredoc)
19:48:19 <elliott> i was ignoring your proposal actually
19:48:26 <elliott> this is something i was already looking into!!
19:48:26 <Bike> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=64765 these are so great
19:49:27 <Bike> ok uh, this SndToJewish thing is listed as being fixed, three different times
19:49:42 <kmc> what list are you reading
19:50:04 <Fiora> is Snd... "standard"? it looks like "sound"
19:50:07 <Bike> the changelog http://www.php.net/ChangeLog-5.php
19:50:32 <Bike> http://www.scip.ch/en/?vuldb.9021 oh my god.
19:50:40 <Bike> this is my new favorite bug
19:51:25 <Fiora> that sndtojewish thing resulted in a critical exploit? geez
19:51:51 <elliott> what do you mean there are reasons not to stuff every library into the core of your language
19:52:01 <Fiora> https://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=54096 geez these are really weird
19:52:39 <Bike> php has a built in julian to hebrew calendar conversion function, fiora. it is beyond weird.
19:53:04 <Fiora> I mean like I feel like I'm missing 90% of this
19:53:06 <Bike> "comparsion of incomplete DateTime causes SIGSEGV" good, good
19:53:12 <Fiora> "PHP defines -0 as an int", but wouldn't -0 just resolve to 0?
19:53:20 <Bike> not in php it wouldn't
19:53:32 <Fiora> and there's this filter function that "checks if values are ints", but if you wanted to see if a float was int, wouldn't you just do if( floor(f) == f )?
19:53:42 <Fiora> ... well I guess there's infinities and things
19:53:58 <Fiora> ... if( (float)(int)f == f )?
19:54:17 <Fiora> Bike: um... explain? >_<
19:54:26 <Bike> i have no idea
19:54:33 <Bike> i don't know php, i just see endless insane bug reports
19:55:02 <Fiora> the whole "this is an interpreted language but it works differently on 32-bit and 64-bit" seems really weird too
19:55:18 <Bike> there was one bug where the put in inline amd64 assembly but didn't conditionalize it
19:55:34 <kmc> Fiora: sadly ghc haskell has that too
19:55:38 <kmc> Int is platform-dependent size
19:56:17 <elliott> kmc: well ghc is primarily a compiler so depending on your interpretation of "that"
19:56:27 <elliott> though it has many traits people relate to "interpreted languages", of course
19:56:49 <Bike> isn't int platform-dependent in C
19:56:53 <kmc> yeah I meant for high level languages
19:56:54 <Fiora> does... does php have data types?
19:57:19 <Bike> i mean having a type that's defined to have a max that varies by platform seems fine to me
19:57:20 <elliott> the only thing worse than platform-dependent sized Int is platform-independent sized Int
19:57:40 <Bike> plus doesn't the haskell standard say it has to be at least 2^31 or whatever
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19:57:50 <Fiora> Bike: yeah, but like, it has builtin functions that work differently on 32-bit and 64-bit which seems really weird
19:57:55 <elliott> Bike: makes semantics of haskell programs much less clear, causes portability problems, severely hurts distributed computing
19:57:55 <Bike> Fiora: not as you know them. not as any of us know thelm
19:57:55 <kmc> the mandated range is just -2^29 .. 2^29-1
19:58:12 <Bike> how's it hurt distributed computing
19:58:21 <kmc> allowing 32-bit implementations to reserve 2 bits for tagging
19:58:43 <elliott> Bike: because you have a single program where multiple parts of it run on heterogeneous machines
19:58:54 <elliott> so Int means different things at different points of your program
19:58:58 <elliott> and can store different values
19:59:06 <elliott> and will get messed up communicating between agents that disagree about its size
19:59:09 <Fiora> so like, for portability it's better to use Integer?
19:59:13 <elliott> so you have to completely avoid Int if you want sanity
19:59:21 <elliott> Fiora: or the fixed-size Int32/Int64
19:59:44 <Fiora> does Int32 fit in 32-bit? or like, does it not fit because of tag bits?
20:00:03 <elliott> so it is actually a pointer to a 32-bit integer
20:00:13 <elliott> (except GHC can automatically unbox it when you use it as a strict field of a data type with optimisations and blah blah blah)
20:00:16 <elliott> (so it's not quite as bad as it sounds)
20:00:29 <Fiora> oh, so *everything* is boxed?
20:00:36 <shachaf> It's a pointer to a machine integer, actually -- just the operations on it truncate to 32 bits.
20:00:37 <elliott> more or less (GHC has unboxed types that are fiddly to use)
20:00:49 <elliott> if you have like a tight numerical loop though GHC will usually be able to unbox everything "at the start"
20:00:50 <shachaf> Yes, only boxed values are first-class in Haskell in general.
20:00:56 <elliott> and then work with unboxed values for the loop itself
20:00:57 <Fiora> so like, if I have an array of 1 million ints, will it be 1 million boxes, or a box with 1 million things?
20:01:07 <elliott> there are both boxed and unboxed arrays
20:01:13 <elliott> so it can be either depending on which is better
20:01:16 <shachaf> If you use an unboxed array it'll have 1 million Ints.
20:01:26 <Fiora> and a boxed array will have 1 million unboxed ints?
20:01:40 <shachaf> No, it'll have a million boxes.
20:01:48 <Fiora> oh. I thought ints were boxed
20:02:00 <elliott> er, I think we mixed up something at some point
20:02:02 <Bike> an "unboxed array" means a boxed array of unboxed things, probably
20:02:04 <shachaf> "(un)boxed array" means it's an array of (un)boxed things.
20:02:13 <Fiora> so an unboxed array of 1m ints is 4 megabytes
20:02:17 <elliott> an unboxed array of Ints knows what Ints are a box around
20:02:20 <Fiora> and a boxed one would be 8 megabytes?
20:02:20 <kmc> plus epsilon
20:02:34 <Bike> Fiora: depending on sizes of boxes etc.
20:02:35 <elliott> Fiora: well, boxed values have like additional pointers in addition to the actual data they store
20:02:36 <shachaf> Probably more than 8 megabytes...
20:02:43 <Bike> boxed arrays can have lazy values can't they
20:02:47 <elliott> to facilitate lazy evaluation and such
20:02:53 <kmc> and it means access has a lot more indirection in a boxed array
20:03:01 <kmc> Bike: right
20:03:06 <shachaf> I think a boxed Int takes two machine words, and the pointer in the array takes an additional machine word.
20:03:11 <elliott> (fwiw, advantage of boxed arrays is that they can store everything, whereas unboxed arrays need to know things about what they store, and you can store thunks (unfinished computations) in boxed arrays, whereas in unboxed arrays you can only store evaluated results, so no fancy laziness tricks)
20:03:13 <kmc> every element is a pointer to a heap object, which can be a thunk
20:03:23 <Fiora> oh, boxed values have more than just the value itself plus a pointer to it?
20:03:31 <Bike> well since this is haskell
20:03:35 <Bike> there are lazy values
20:03:55 <Bike> which like kmc said are thunky
20:03:57 <elliott> right it's important to note that an Int value might be a pointer to *some code*
20:04:00 <elliott> that you haven't evaluated yet
20:04:08 <elliott> but an unboxed integer is just a plain old integer
20:04:13 <kmc> Fiora: a 'boxed value' is a heap object, or a pointer to one. heap objects have a uniform structure, the first word is always a pointer to an 'info table'
20:04:24 <kmc> and then they have zero or more data fields which can have different sizes
20:04:33 <kmc> the uniformity is what allows polymorphic code to work
20:04:41 <Fiora> ah... so it'd be at least 12 megabytes
20:04:43 <kmc> you can force evaluation of a heap object without knowing its type
20:04:46 <Bike> elliott: but uh, when you say can store everything, they're uniformly typed anyway aren't they
20:05:01 <Fiora> I am probably looking at this totally wrong and thinking of haskell as if it was like C <.<
20:05:03 <shachaf> Unless some of the Ints are shared, anyway.
20:05:10 <elliott> you might find the STG machine paper interesting if you're interested in the details of how this stuff works, though I think it's fairly different in GHC nowadays (in particular their "spineless tagless G-machine" has tags???)
20:05:14 <Bike> yeah you can't really reason about storage very well, can you?
20:05:20 <elliott> Bike: yeah but I mean you can make an Array a for any a
20:05:22 <shachaf> Perhaps http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/13227630_j2MHcg/960526161_XwKHSBM#!i=960526161&k=XwKHSBM&lb=1&s=L can clarify.
20:05:25 <kmc> it doesn't have the kind of tags they're talking about not having in the STG paper
20:05:32 <elliott> whereas like an unboxed array will require some condition on what "a" is so it knows how to store it unboxed
20:05:33 <kmc> GHC doesn't use tag bits to distinguish pointers from integers
20:05:39 <Bike> somebody here linked me to a paper where whatshisname was like "you can reason about space! weird, huh"
20:05:41 <kmc> it does use tag bits on pointers to mark things which are already known to be evaluated
20:06:02 <elliott> it's not impossible to reason about space usage of Haskell programs, but it's definitely less simple than in C or whatever
20:06:44 <Bike> there's also sharing, like if you store 4+7 into an array a million times it'll all use the same thunk?
20:06:54 <elliott> assuming you store the "same" 4+7
20:06:54 <kmc> into a boxed array yeah
20:07:02 <elliott> it'll store the same pointer a bajillion times
20:07:04 <kmc> let x = 4+7 in listArray [0,1000] (repeat x)
20:07:32 <elliott> 4+7 is sort of a bad example since it might get like constant folded and stuff but the principle, yeah
20:07:35 <Bike> oh, does ghc not pick out common subexpressions like that
20:07:42 <elliott> it does it very conservatively
20:07:47 <elliott> because you can introduce bad space leaks that way
20:07:49 <shachaf> elliott: Well, it'll get shared whether it's an unevaluated thunk or not.
20:07:49 <Bike> yeah i figured but it's easier to say than (foo y)
20:08:13 <elliott> shachaf: does GHC not like preallocate a bunch of Ints for small values?
20:08:14 <Bike> well anyway, to sum up, fiora, php is dumb
20:08:18 <elliott> which would distort the idea
20:09:14 <Bike> Fixed bug #43177 (Errors in eval()'ed code produce status code 500).
20:09:41 <Fiora> Bike: um, unrelatedly, http://eprint.iacr.org/2013/404.pdf
20:09:53 <kmc> sharing is p. cool. in Haskell if you implement a binary tree with an insert function, in the most obvious naive way, you get a cool persistent data structure where new versions of the tree share nodes with old ones
20:10:04 <Bike> Fiora: wassat.
20:10:21 <kmc> and this isn't some crazy compiler optimization either, it's p. much fundamental to the language's data model
20:10:21 <shachaf> kmc: that requires changing your notion of "obvious"
20:10:25 <Fiora> it's a super lightweight block cipher
20:10:50 -!- sprocklem has joined.
20:11:01 <Fiora> "With regard to throughput, we note that the fastest reported software implementation of AES-128 available on an Atmel 8-bit microcontroller has a cost of 125 cycles/byte, and uses 1912 bytes of flash and 432 bytes of SRAM [BOSC10]. For a slight decrease in speed, the same
20:11:05 <Fiora> implementers offer a more balanced implementation with a cost of 135 cycles/byte, using 1912 bytes of flash and 176 bytes of SRAM. Our high-speed Speck128/128 implementation has comparable throughput, at 139 cycles/byte, but uses only 388 bytes of flash and 256 bytes of SRAM."
20:11:30 <Fiora> they have a hardware optimized one and a software optimized one
20:11:34 <Fiora> the hardware optimized one can be done in like, ~1300 gates
20:11:41 <shachaf> that's only 69.5 bicycles/byte!
20:12:13 <Bike> god, half these bugs are about segfaults
20:12:37 <kmc> almost like the PHP interpreter is a C program written by idiots
20:12:44 <Bike> "Fixed bug #63369 ((un)serialize() leaves dangling pointers, causes crashes)"
20:13:43 <Bike> Fixed bug #62896 ("DateTime->modify('+0 days')" modifies DateTime object) <-- what.
20:14:56 <kmc> also laziness is important if you want good performance from persistent data structures
20:15:10 <Bike> alright "segfault" is in here 276 times
20:16:21 <Bike> that has a lot of "default" though i guess whatever
20:16:50 <HackEgo> 2010-02-14.txt:20:49:06: <Gregor> Sweet, I made a megahal brain that segfaults >_>
20:17:42 <Bike> Fiora: oh man NSA is this Top Secret
20:18:21 <Fiora> no it's public I think
20:18:23 <Fiora> like just published
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20:33:45 <oerjan> i think this is that disaster Bike and Phantom_Hoover referred to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nedelin_catastrophe
20:34:37 <Bike> yeah, that's the one.
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20:44:50 <oerjan> Jeg ser, jeg ser... / Jeg er visst kommet på en feil klode! / Her er så underlig...
21:01:17 <elliott> http://www.theonion.com/articles/10-giant-cocks,32276/ attn kmc
21:01:57 <kmc> oh these aren't that big
21:02:15 <kmc> ok the elephant cock is pretty big
21:03:44 <Bike> how does the nsa thing keep getting worse. helllllp
21:06:28 <Bike> just looking through @0xabad1dea's feed
21:06:51 <Bike> "Speaking your username aloud on a phone call to another country is evidence the person behind the username is foreign" etc
21:07:16 -!- Vorpal has joined.
21:09:24 <Bike> hey. wait a minute. ELLIOTTCABLE is here.
21:09:29 <Bike> what's happening
21:11:35 <Bike> "Ahhhh youtube 502 ahhhhh I cant reach my touhous"
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21:19:57 <Taneb> Work done is difference in kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity is force times distance. These are both measured in Joules
21:20:35 <Fiora> Bike: see, you just have to have *plush* touhous
21:20:39 <Fiora> then you can reach them whenever !
21:20:40 <Taneb> Power is energy by time, it is measure in Js^-1 or Watts
21:21:06 <Bike> are you taking a kinetics class
21:21:18 <Bike> Fiora: what if the plush is kidnapped
21:21:25 <Taneb> Bike, hopefully past tense. The exam is in less than 11 hours
21:21:50 <Fiora> nobody's kidnapped mine!~
21:22:15 <Fiora> https://room208.org/booru/data/9160f5fe9e4332617661b5d4f548dcd4.jpg seee they're all safe and sound
21:22:36 <Taneb> Whoa, power is also force times velocity?
21:23:36 <Bike> Fiora: i'm pretty sure there are so many you could easily lose one
21:23:37 <fizzie> THIS SUMMER... THE COCKS COLLIDE (it was a video)
21:24:08 <Fiora> I haven't lost any!
21:24:10 <Fiora> I keep good track of my friends
21:24:59 <Bike> then why is there a meduka there who did she eat
21:24:59 <shachaf> what about non-plush friends
21:25:25 <Fiora> I'm only responsible for friends who live in my apartment <.<;
21:25:45 <shachaf> Fiora: How often do they double?
21:25:56 <Taneb> And potential energy is mass times height times the gravitational constant
21:25:59 <Fiora> let's see. I had like half as many ~12-16 months ago ish?
21:26:10 -!- constant has changed nick to trout.
21:26:41 <shachaf> Fiora: OK, so let's say it's like Moore's law.
21:27:13 <Taneb> shachaf, it seems a little quicker than Moore's law
21:27:24 <Fiora> I think it's more like an S curve?
21:27:34 <Bike> what is the optimal plushie count
21:27:55 <Fiora> I'm... not sure there is one in particular?
21:27:55 <shachaf> Bike: one more than whatever you have right now hth
21:27:56 <Taneb> Where the hell is Hitchin
21:28:20 <Bike> well you said s curve
21:28:31 <Bike> what's the asymptote!
21:28:46 <Fiora> well I'm mostly running out, I don't have many touhou ones I don't have I think
21:28:49 <Fiora> and most are like, permanently out of sto k
21:28:55 <Fiora> there's new ones but only like, every reitaisai
21:28:59 <Bike> i see like three reimus
21:29:10 <Bike> can't you trade two of them for a more obscure touhou
21:29:36 <Fiora> you can make custom plushies but it's a lot of sewing work and stuff
21:30:27 <Bike> marisa -> maribel let's make it happen
21:31:09 <Fiora> I'd have to make new clothes and stuff <:
21:31:11 <fizzie> I remember something about http://www.geocities.jp/igarashi_lab/plushie/index-e.html from a SIGGRAPH.
21:32:00 <Fiora> I totally should have gotten all the madoka plushies when they were still in stock though
21:32:26 <nortti> I'm away for an hour and people start talking about touhou-plushies, what is this?
21:33:19 <elliott> nortti: are you somehow... surprised by #esoteric's drifting topic
21:33:23 <elliott> haven't you been here forever
21:33:59 <Bike> have you been touhou forever
21:34:00 <shachaf> Fiora: There are four people in ##fiora now!
21:34:05 <Fiora> nortti: https://room208.org/booru/data/9160f5fe9e4332617661b5d4f548dcd4.jpg um, I posted this
21:34:13 <shachaf> You wouldn't want us to talk about you behind your back, would you?
21:34:30 <Bike> wow that doesn't sound like a creepy threat at all shachaf
21:34:59 <Fiora> it's about four years of accumulated plushies! they're good for filling the rest of a queen size bed
21:35:16 <Bike> can you just make the bed out of plushies
21:35:27 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you need a queen size bed! double beds are bourgeoisie
21:35:33 <Bike> uh for all the plushies
21:35:50 <Fiora> it was like $50 or $100 extra? and I like being able to roll around and sprawl out and stuff
21:35:57 <Fiora> and I kind of have a bad tendency to somehow steal all the blankets
21:36:11 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: i think you will find that big beds are the best, hth.
21:36:20 <Fiora> elliott knows his stuff
21:36:23 <Bike> take that, yourself!!
21:36:45 <Fiora> I can basically lie down on it in any direction and fit
21:36:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i slept in a tiny bunk bed since i was like 3 and you don't hear me complaining!
21:36:51 <kmc> also it's hard to fit more than two people in a bed smaller than a queen
21:36:53 <Bike> check your short privilege, fiora
21:36:54 <shachaf> Fiora: have you considered getting a cat hth
21:37:01 <Fiora> I have! I'm also allergic
21:37:04 <Fiora> but I stlil want a cat
21:37:12 <Bike> get a pet you're not allergic to then
21:37:12 <shachaf> have you considered that life without a cat is no life at all
21:37:16 <Bike> like a tarantula
21:37:21 <Fiora> I'm... not good with sipders
21:37:23 <kmc> though i think it's hard for more than two people to /sleep/ in the same bed, period
21:37:29 <Bike> how about a snake
21:37:38 <Fiora> Bike: you tall people can like, get a king or something anyways
21:37:58 <Bike> at school orientation there was one guy tall enough that he didn't fit in the dorm beds
21:38:03 <shachaf> kmc: Reading _The Door into Summer_ made me want to live with cats again. :-(
21:38:14 <Taneb> Fiora, I have a double bed but I curl up small
21:38:14 <Bike> (he was like seven foot probably)
21:38:15 <kmc> california king
21:38:27 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to become king of california
21:38:34 <elliott> what's the biggest bed in the universe #drugz
21:38:36 <shachaf> i'll vote for you for king hth
21:38:58 <shachaf> elliott: the universe is my bed hth
21:39:07 <kmc> shachaf: that's not how king works
21:39:11 <kmc> well sometimes but rarely
21:39:17 <Fiora> plushies are good though, I tend to cling to them in my sleep instead of the blankets
21:39:22 <Fiora> though sometimes Iflail and knock them onto the floor to
21:39:37 <shachaf> kmc: when i'm king i'll change how king works
21:39:44 <Taneb> I could probably quite comfortably sleep in this spinny office chair
21:39:48 <elliott> im googling "huge bed" now #drugz
21:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, do you have to put them back or you feel guilty
21:40:01 <Fiora> I don't actually leave them all on there all the time <.< that was just for the picture
21:40:07 <elliott> these beds arent very huge
21:40:09 <Fiora> it's usually a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle messier
21:40:40 <elliott> these are just fairly big beds
21:40:50 <Bike> i'm pretty sure i should make autonomous plushies
21:40:55 <Bike> so they put themselves back on the bed
21:41:00 <Bike> other advantages: easy to film horror movies
21:41:01 <fizzie> Are there official definitions of what these "queen" and "king" sizes are?
21:41:05 <Fiora> so like, toy story?
21:41:07 <kmc> fizzie: yes
21:41:14 <Fiora> fizzie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bed_sizes#Standard_North_American_sizes
21:41:16 <Bike> like toy story but soft
21:41:23 <elliott> why is there furry porn and a picture of some socks. this is the worst image search ever
21:41:27 <Bike> and possibly with jetpacks, because climbing is a pretty hard behavior.
21:41:28 <elliott> im going to try "gigantic bed" instead
21:41:31 <kmc> fizzie: also did you see my terrifying fact about RBMK reactors
21:41:35 <kmc> and did you already know
21:41:46 <Bike> terrifying RBMK fact: RBMK is real
21:41:46 <elliott> oh it suggested "biggest bed in the world" lets go with that
21:41:46 <fizzie> Fiora: Aw, no ISO beds.
21:42:06 <elliott> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/05/07/article-1178094-04D70DB8000005DC-311_634x466.jpg now THATS what i call a big bed
21:42:07 <Taneb> Isn't there an ISO standard on how to make tea?
21:42:10 <fizzie> kmc: I did not see any fact about RBMK reactors at all.
21:42:20 <Bike> elliott: but big enough?? imo, no.
21:42:21 <Taneb> elliott, that's what I call dailymail.co.uk
21:42:23 <kmc> fizzie: there are four operational RBMK reactors about 230 km from Helsinki
21:42:39 <kmc> no it is the opposite of good
21:43:02 <kmc> Taneb: yes ISO 3103, although it's not designed to produce the most delicious tea, just a standard tea for comparative purposes
21:43:34 <fizzie> kmc: Are they in St. Petersburg or something?
21:44:09 <elliott> The method consists in extracting of soluble substances in dried tea leaf, containing in a porcelain or earthenware pot, by means of freshly boiling water, pouring of the liquor into a white porcelain or earthenware bowl, examination of the organoleptic properties of the infused leaf, and of the liquor with or without milk, or both.
21:44:19 <Taneb> Daily Mail is the newspaper that says "life is getting worse! porn everywhere! immigrants everywhere stealing our jobs! cancer everywhere! foxes everywhere! too many badgers! not enough badgers! immigrants buying our factories and giving us jobs!"
21:44:29 <elliott> The work was the winner of the parodic Ig Nobel Prize for Literature in 1999.
21:44:31 <fizzie> elliott: Unsurprisingly it's originally a British Standard.
21:44:32 <kmc> fizzie: yeah nearby
21:45:02 <kmc> immigrants stealing our badger cancer
21:45:07 <elliott> @tell mnoqy attn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3103
21:45:15 <kmc> http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/
21:45:21 <Taneb> Anyway, goodnight!
21:45:24 <shachaf> elliott: http://www.keepbanderabeautiful.org/earth-hospital-bed-i.jpg
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21:45:43 <Bike> looks uncomfortable though.
21:46:07 <fizzie> "400 - Bad Request" that's a "bad", not "bed". (I don't know why happen.)
21:46:42 <elliott> alt. no speech recognisers
21:47:42 <Bike> wait. i recognize speech.
21:50:05 <fizzie> I believe our common bed widths here are 80, 90, 120, 160 and 180 cm.
21:50:56 <elliott> ideally you would have a room that's just all bed
21:51:00 <Fiora> those numbers make more sense than ours <.<
21:51:04 <elliott> i don't really see much of a use for non-bed areas of a room
21:51:13 <Fiora> but you need an area for your dresser, a hamper
21:51:16 <Fiora> an area to change clothes, a mirror
21:51:27 <Fiora> maybe a nightstand and alarm clock and stuff
21:51:29 <elliott> these sound like less efficient uses of space than more bed
21:51:36 <Fiora> and like, a pathway to exit the room and maybe a bathroom
21:51:36 <elliott> I guess you could make one of the walls out of mirror
21:51:45 <fizzie> Fiora: The 120 cm size is kind of a weird, I think, since it's really quite wide for one, but also quite narrow for two. (Still, it's not *that* wide.)
21:52:04 <Bike> what if you just replaced the floor with a mattress.
21:52:09 <elliott> Bike: this is my thinking yes
21:52:14 <Fiora> I wonder why the "twin" is the smallest size
21:52:23 <Fiora> Like, fitting two people on a twin sounds a little uncomfortable
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21:53:14 <elliott> fitting two people in any bed is kind of tenuous imo
21:53:18 <fizzie> Also I recently saw the layouts of the apartments they're building nearby, and the smallest ones have bedrooms where the bed fills the entire width of the room; there are separate doors out from the bedroom (into the living room area) from both sides of the ends of the room, but you can't go around the bed without going to another room.
21:53:33 <Fiora> I could probably fit 2 or 3 of me in my bed
21:53:37 <shachaf> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/27810/why-do-americans-call-single-beds-twin-beds
21:53:50 <Bike> Fiora: but do you
21:53:54 <shachaf> Fiora: hey are you doing cloning now
21:54:09 <elliott> the question is why you would want to
21:54:10 <Fiora> well that's kind of the thing I don't have a cloning machine
21:54:22 <Bike> haven't you ever read cavlin + hobbes
21:54:34 <Fiora> having a friend would be nice
21:54:43 <fizzie> Our current bed is 160 cm, except you could argue it's not, since in reality it's two 80 cm beds with an extra mattress (160 cm wide, ~5 cm thick) on top to get rid of the gap in the middle.
21:54:49 <shachaf> Fiora: you would be too shy to make friends with yourself
21:55:05 <Bike> elliott: flanking maneuevers, sleeping in shifts to avoid being snuck up on
21:57:29 <Fiora> I'm not sure... maybe you're right, shachaf ...
21:58:16 <shachaf> i mean, it would be Fiora^2 shyness
21:59:35 <Fiora> at least I'd know a priori that she was just as much an emotional wreck as I am!
22:00:43 <shachaf> do you feel more comfortable around people who are emotional wrecks?
22:01:02 <Fiora> I don't really know
22:01:07 <Bike> well, everybody's an emotional wreck, so that works out pretty conveniently.
22:01:31 <shachaf> Bike: ChanServ isn't an emotional wreck!
22:02:33 <Bike> have you even talked to chanserv
22:02:40 <Bike> chanserv isn't just a slab of meat
22:03:30 <shachaf> what is ChanServ a slab of
22:03:41 <Bike> slabs of meat.
22:04:07 <shachaf> elliott: i failed to find a bed bigger than that one
22:04:40 <Fiora> hmm. I'd have someone to talk with assembly code and stuff about
22:05:32 <Bike> if i had clones i'd specialize, so that we would have different things to talk about.
22:05:45 <Bike> but still keep some genericism because doing one thing is boring.
22:05:46 <Fiora> yeah, that would be pretty nice
22:05:47 <shachaf> you can talk with us about that!! hth
22:05:58 <Fiora> like if I can have a fiora who knows all kinds of stuff in other topics and she can teach me lots of things
22:06:16 <Fiora> like neurobiolo-- oh, wait, I already have one of those :3
22:06:19 <shachaf> Bike: if you had a clone you would probably fight to the death "you're just that aggressive"
22:07:13 <Bike> Fiora: alas i'm not as cute or plushful.
22:07:24 <Bike> also yeah i'd probably have at least like, nine clones learn german swordfighting.
22:07:26 <Fiora> pff you are pretty cute <.<
22:07:44 <Bike> "but plushful, nah, i OWN you on that front motherfucker"
22:08:50 <Fiora> geez plushieful has nothing to do with -me-
22:09:29 <Bike> then how do you explain allegations that your bed is filled with plush
22:09:46 <Fiora> but like if I had a friend that friend coujld enjoy the plushies too
22:10:34 <Bike> well plush is a universal enjoyedment
22:13:28 <Bike> ...all the o fucking serious
22:13:35 <Bike> all the other kinds of swordfighting?
22:14:17 <lambdabot> *** "germane" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
22:14:17 <lambdabot> adj 1: relevant and appropriate; "he asks questions that are
22:14:29 <shachaf> hmm from now on we say "germane" instead of "on-topic"
22:14:46 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_school_of_fencing
22:14:50 <Bike> don't you read gunnerkrigg!
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22:17:26 <shachaf> Higgledy Piggledy / Bicycle Bicycle / pushed his clone button and / heard it go Boink. // Now he can not only / neurobiologize / but also transmogrify; / quoth Bike: "oink oink".
22:18:24 <Bike> bikes don't make that noise >:
22:18:50 <shachaf> they do when you transmogrify them
22:21:30 <fizzie> Ooh, fancy: a 7-plug extension cord, configured such that one hole is a "master", and when you turn off the device connected to that hole, it cuts off four other holes; the idea being that when you turn off your TV, the other related things like externally powered subwoofers and whatnot will also automatically power off.
22:22:05 <fizzie> I don't know what they'll invent next!
22:23:06 <kmc> There is no Great Stagnation.
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22:23:26 <Bike> is Great Stagnation the thing where we close the patent office because everything's been invented
22:23:30 <kmc> fizzie: at university they gave us a bunch of those because green! but most of us didn't have the right use case for them, so they were just a nuisance
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22:24:32 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Stagnation
22:24:46 <kmc> i haven't read this
22:25:14 <fizzie> kmc: My wife's mother was trying to give one away, due to lack of the right use case; it's very possible she got it from somewhere because green.
22:25:21 <kmc> i just know "There is no Great Stagnation" (from his blog) as a cheeky way to praise a consumer tech gizmo of questionable utility
22:25:23 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drugz i like how this exists
22:25:47 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drukqs
22:26:12 <Bike> that reminds me of http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139464/j-bradford-delong/the-second-great-depression which i read today because literally needing pills just isn't depressing enough
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22:27:10 <fizzie> "James has stated that the title is not related to drugs, and is 'just a word [he] made up.'" that's what they always say.
22:27:56 <kmc> yeah right
22:28:00 <kmc> lucy in the sky with diamonds
22:33:41 <fizzie> Can you get Verizon in prizon?
22:34:16 <elliott> kmc: i think i'm addicted to drugz
22:34:33 <kmc> welp time for an intervention
22:34:37 <fizzie> Sunrise over the verizon. (The joke is, Sunrise is an operator too.)
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23:42:38 <shachaf> a stitch in time saves nine
23:42:41 <shachaf> From the practice of mending a small tear in cloth before it becomes a larger one.
23:43:31 <shachaf> i always thought it was related to _A Wrinkle in Time_??????????
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