00:00:05 <pikhq> Image formats tend to be designed in a way I can only describe as "malicious".
00:01:01 <Gracenotes> parsers in general are hard to get right
00:01:18 <zzo38> pikhq: Well, some of them are, anyways. There might be better ones too, possibly.
00:01:19 <pikhq> And DEFLATE is terribad.
00:01:22 <kmc> especially when you're writing them in fucking C
00:01:38 <kmc> shachaf: what's bad about your gif thing?
00:02:11 <Gracenotes> The language of all gifs, for instance, is likely context-sensitive, and I'm sure many other formats are Turing-complete.
00:02:13 <pikhq> Especially as used in PNG. Gotta love using multiple endiannesses!
00:02:30 <pikhq> And two checksums. (sigh)
00:03:23 <nooodl_> mmmmm i have to make an xml based bitmap image format
00:03:38 <zzo38> nooodl_: I think someone already did that.
00:03:49 <Bike> <bit><on /></bit>
00:03:55 <pikhq> And shit, even BMP is friggin' awful.
00:04:27 <nooodl_> pbm: the only good image file format
00:04:42 <Gracenotes> BMP is pretty straightforward, if you use it in the way you'd expect
00:04:58 <zzo38> Yes, I looked and I can see it isn't very good, and it could be improved. PBM is pretty good if you don't need compressed, but even with PBM, it uses ASCII numbers even when using binary PBMs, which doesn't make a lot of sense.
00:05:12 <Gracenotes> er, also without any extensions or weird flags, etc.
00:05:14 <Bike> what about xbm!!
00:05:26 <shachaf> kmc: well, it's mostly just really slow and stupid about things
00:05:41 <shachaf> i bet it could be improved by ""orders of magnitude"
00:05:41 <Gracenotes> anyway, the best lossy formats involve lots of analysis of human vision.
00:05:44 <Bike> wow xbm is source that's right
00:05:46 <Bike> imo that rules
00:05:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, I'm not too fond of that bit. Though it still beats most other stuff a lot.
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00:06:17 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I agree.
00:06:28 <pikhq> Gracenotes: BMP is practically made of weird features.
00:06:40 <zzo38> Text PBM format can be processed by TeX macros, though.
00:06:40 <nooodl_> pbm has always been "that easily readable/writable ascii image file format" for me
00:06:57 <Vorpal> So I was trying to make a panorama, when somehow THIS happened: http://db.tt/LhfMRoNz
00:07:00 <pikhq> nooodl_: Binary PBM is equally easy to read/write FWIW.
00:07:07 <Vorpal> I think it took all images and put them on top of each other
00:08:00 <Gracenotes> obligatory, also, http://notanumber.net/archives/54/underhanded-c-the-leaky-redaction
00:08:02 <kmc> binary pbm is the best
00:08:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, I can't get that panorama to render properly, it looks just fine in hugin's preview window.
00:09:09 <Bike> Vorpal: http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%201.jpg you've seen the panoramas of hell i hope
00:09:39 <Bike> http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%2011.jpg ready to run
00:10:11 <Bike> and of course the classic http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%206.jpg doge
00:10:18 <Vorpal> Bike, Those things can at least be fixed by masking out one version.
00:11:48 <Vorpal> Bike, in my case it is just the program going crazy. It looks perfect in the preview window. And it in the remapped images. But in the final blended result it just discards the position information it seems
00:11:54 <Vorpal> never had that happen before
00:12:57 <Vorpal> Bike, also that "mountain" in my picture doesn't exist
00:13:26 <Vorpal> I THINK it may be part of the ground from the 360 spherical panorama
00:13:36 <Vorpal> But it doesn't quite match the texture
00:14:45 <Vorpal> Also the flag is mirrored, it was blowing the other way in the source image...
00:15:23 <shachaf> Sgeo_: No `olist today so far.
00:16:30 <Vorpal> Hmmm.... I actually upgraded the panorama program recently. Maybe that broke it. Worth trying on a computer that still has an older version. Except that computer doesn't have nearly enough RAM to deal with this project...
00:17:09 <Vorpal> I give up, I'll try something else tomorrow, good night
00:18:54 <copumpkin> oddly enough, in many latin languages, the expression "to have reason" is "to be right"
00:19:15 <Bike> also does that mean romance languages or what
00:19:26 <shachaf> today my reason is fava beans
00:19:51 <Bike> mainly on The Internet i've gotten used to people using "rational" to mean "whatever i, the speaker, am thinking"
00:20:12 <copumpkin> the other use of rational on the internet
00:21:47 <Gracenotes> rational is from first principles, rather than just from assumptions
00:21:58 <Gracenotes> first principles are also from assumptions.
00:21:58 <shachaf> I,I from first assumptions
00:24:30 <kmc> rational means acting as though maximizing an unbiased estimate of some function obeying the axioms of a utility function
00:25:05 <Fiora> I thought rational meant it could be expressed as p/q, where p and q are integers
00:25:44 <Fiora> and q isn't zero >_<
00:26:08 <Bike> oh that reminds me, i was thinking about the polynomial thing again (without checking knuth, just, my own silly thinking)
00:26:09 <shachaf> imo there's nothing very rational about the number 2/3
00:26:51 <pikhq> Seems like a ratio to me.
00:26:56 <Bike> figured something easy but kinda cool, if you want to evaluate say x² + 2x + 1 you can rewrite that as (x+1)², so one multiplication and one add instead of two adds and two multiplications
00:27:05 <Bike> unfortunately that involves rootfinding...
00:28:46 <Bike> yeah but finding them is annoying and all.
00:28:56 <Bike> tied up mathematics for like. three hundred years.
00:29:06 <Bike> also they're kind of rubbish to represent with floats anyway so that's probably not good.
00:29:09 <Bike> also sometimes they're imaginary.
00:29:17 <Fiora> I guess the problem is kind of complex
00:29:58 <pikhq> Floats are generally rubbish though.
00:30:27 <pikhq> Actually, really, representing floats base 10 is rubbish.
00:30:51 <shachaf> hmm in unary you only have rational numbers even if you invent a "." equivalent
00:30:52 <Bike> er, who does that.
00:31:11 <pikhq> Bike: Most languages use base 10 for float literals.
00:31:21 <Bike> Oh. Right. I was thinking for coomputation.
00:31:22 <pikhq> "0.1" is a very, very misleading literal.
00:31:32 <Bike> it's pretty hilarious how hard reading floats is, yeah.
00:32:16 * pikhq prefers hex floats
00:32:22 <pikhq> Just on principle.
00:32:24 <Bike> well, for rootfinding it would be easier to just use algebraics.
00:32:56 <Bike> > cos(1/3*pi) :: CReal
00:34:44 <Bike> other rootfinding could happen too though. like you can turn any (>deg1) polynomial into a homogenuous poly of the same degree but you need to know its roots. also it's probably pointless and i'm pointless.
00:35:16 <Bike> wait, not homogenouous. ugh.
00:35:48 <Gracenotes> yuouou just need to get back to your roots
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01:20:50 <Bike> this book cites "Darwin 1859" and "Darwin 1872".
01:21:31 <Bike> yeah but it's darwin.
01:21:42 <Bike> origin o' species
01:23:41 <Bike> and also http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1227/1227-h/images/fig18.jpg
01:24:00 <Sgeo_> This should really not be difficult
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01:26:57 <Bike> i'm not sure what 'parochial' means in the context of chimp lips, but yeah i don't see how it's sulky either.
01:27:27 * oerjan is tempted to `addquote that.
01:28:10 <oerjan> except the last part sort of doesn't work.
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01:37:35 <oerjan> <shachaf> 1F0AC PLAYING CARD KNIGHT OF SPADES [<U+1F0AC>] <-- hm that's apparently in tarot decks...
01:38:08 <oerjan> to a norwegian this is extra confusing since en:jack =no:knekt, usually...
01:38:20 <oerjan> which is obviously cognate to knight
01:40:44 <oerjan> @tell Taneb Clearly electromagnetism is a sham and radios are really powered by wights.
01:44:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nibling <-- this is the second time in my life i see this word, and the first time was just days ago.
01:46:55 <oerjan> hm i think it was in a r/askhistory discussion about what would happen if a king (of england, mostly) was homosexual.
01:47:43 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
01:48:00 <oerjan> assuming he avoided hot pokers and stuff
01:51:22 <Fiora> there seem to be multiple historical cases?
01:51:33 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_VI_and_I "Throughout his life James had close relationships with male courtiers, which has caused debate among historians about their nature."
01:51:39 <Bike> yeah i as gonna say, a secret gay noble is not really shocking
01:51:40 <Fiora> "... his sexuality has long been a matter of debate. He clearly preferred the company of handsome young men. The evidence of his correspondence and contemporary accounts have led some historians to conclude that the king was homosexual or bisexual."
01:52:02 <Bike> wow, he was james six and james one at the same time.
01:52:05 <Bike> that's pretty artful.
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01:55:00 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1hsfjs/what_is_the_protocol_for_if_an_heir_to_the/ it was
01:56:53 <Bike> i don't know why succession is an issue, plenty of monarchs have died without issue
01:57:00 <Bike> like.... james i's predecessor elizabeth.................
01:57:12 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_II_of_England
01:57:22 <Fiora> "While Edward fathered at least five children by two women, he was rumoured to have been bisexual. His inability to deny even the most grandiose favours to his unpopular male favourites (first a Gascon knight named Piers Gaveston, later a young English lord named Hugh Despenser) led to constant political unrest and his eventual deposition."
01:58:20 <Fiora> the son of william the conquerer was apparently gay too
01:58:40 <Fiora> oh, and Richard the Lionheart
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01:58:48 <Bike_> "Is it actually healthier to go braless?" r/askscience's biology is a bit disappointing
01:58:54 <oerjan> with a name like hugh despenser you cannot go wrong
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02:00:35 <Bike> "If you jumped from the golden gate bridge and then changed your mind, would trying to break the surface tension before landing be of any use?" ggggh
02:01:13 <Fiora> honestly I'd be vaguely curious about the bra one but reddit
02:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> there are 3 replies and one of them is just explaining that the question is confused
02:02:38 <Bike> Fiora: try wearing a unibra for a while and see which breast is healthier afterwards, obviously
02:02:51 <Fiora> that sounds monumentally uncomfortable
02:03:10 <Bike> we must make sacrifices for science, and by we i mean you
02:03:28 <Fiora> I don't think that can possibly work
02:03:35 <Bike> we must find a way
02:04:20 <Bike> i'm not sure hooks have ever gone well in clothing
02:04:29 <Bike> haven't you ever seen Hellraiser
02:04:31 <Bike> no fashion sense, imo
02:04:55 <Phantom_Hoover> also: what about captain hook, he seemed to pull it off
02:05:27 <Bike> hands aren't clothes!
02:06:20 <Bike> fashion is a sciencne!
02:06:26 <shachaf> oerjan: The first time I saw it was also days ago.
02:06:30 <Fiora> the science... of beauty!
02:06:40 <Bike> the science... of not jamming hooks into yourself!
02:06:42 * Fiora waves her hair, holds up a redken shampoo bottle
02:06:43 <shachaf> oerjan: Someone sent me a link. I assume the occurrences are related.
02:06:57 * Bike waves his hair, holds up bloodied surgical implements
02:07:09 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> er, *the best one <-- let me guess, that one has already been deleted?
02:09:18 <oerjan> shachaf: maybe there's a source somewhere
02:10:38 <shachaf> oerjan: The person who mentioned it to me linked to http://www.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1hgkwp/til_the_plural_genderneutral_term_for_nieces_and/
02:10:45 <shachaf> oerjan: I assume it's all related to that.
02:11:25 <shachaf> Half a cheer for oerjan! Hip hip -- hoo!
02:12:11 * Bike looks at TIL, finds annoying psychologytoday link half a page down
02:13:00 <shachaf> Bike: why would you look at reddit "r u crazy"
02:14:25 <oerjan> hey r/askhistory is nice. and addictive.
02:16:24 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/user/crazy is sadly empty. but existing.
02:16:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:18:55 <oerjan> http://www.reddit.com/r/crazy looks slightly healthier.
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02:27:31 <Gracenotes> shachaf: also, the niblings thread, not a linguist in the bunch
02:27:50 <shachaf> why would you read the thread hth
02:28:00 <shachaf> Gracenotes: today the cookie place had a short line so i went there
02:28:32 <Gracenotes> why would you ask a rhetoric question hth
02:28:44 <oerjan> Gracenotes: that's r/todayilearned/ not a science subreddit hth
02:29:46 <shachaf> it was enjoyable but not stand-in-line-for-half-an-hour good
02:30:07 <Gracenotes> maybe you'd think it was better is you stood in line for half an hour
02:30:20 <oerjan> green mouse and telephone ice cream
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02:31:42 <oerjan> you have to stand in line until you're really hungry, you see
02:32:29 <HackEgo> scyrmion: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
02:33:31 <elliott> then I ended up hosting it :(
02:35:36 <Gracenotes> kmc: what was the thing people don't like in Rust?
02:36:00 <scyrmion> I'm trying to experement with some ideas of compression algorithms that search for a program that is able to produce the original output.
02:36:02 <kmc> lots of things
02:36:06 <kmc> can you be more specific
02:36:11 <shachaf> Gracenotes: the thing where all your iron disintegrates after a while
02:36:26 <shachaf> rust is all about the boxes
02:36:41 <shachaf> copumpkin: imo be more dutch hth
02:36:48 <kmc> well they're getting rid of managed mutable boxes maybe
02:36:57 <kmc> that's the one place where the borrow checker has a run-time check
02:37:17 <kmc> is that what cows say in .nl
02:37:28 <Gracenotes> kmc: what is the difference between @ pointers and managed mutable boxes?
02:37:37 <kmc> it's @ versus @mut
02:37:52 <elliott> why did they name those after an OS
02:38:26 <shachaf> kmc: are they going to get rid of @
02:38:37 <kmc> don't think so, blog post notwithstanding
02:39:19 <kmc> the funny thing is @ isn't garbage collected yet, just refcounted, and there's already a library type Rc<T> that is refcounted and way faster
02:39:32 <shachaf> Wait, there's no actual GC?
02:39:53 <kmc> correct; if you have cycles they don't go away until the thread ends
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02:40:23 <kmc> shachaf: I'm told that @ and @fn don't have much in common implementation-wise; similarly ~ and ~fn and ~[]
02:40:42 <shachaf> it seems like all of rust's boxes and things is a lot to keep in mind
02:40:49 <kmc> also there are secretly two kinds of ~: those which point to managed boxes somewhere and those which don't
02:40:52 <kmc> shachaf: yup
02:41:04 <elliott> are they sure firefox can't deal with being fully GC'd
02:41:10 <oerjan> what would you know, there is no .ts domain
02:41:12 <elliott> there are some pretty wacky advanced GCs
02:41:42 <kmc> if your ~ contains managed stuff then it has a header which links it into a list of all managed stuff, for use by the thread-exit cycle collector (?)
02:41:53 <kmc> but if it doesn't then it has no header (as of, like, today)
02:41:55 <elliott> (that's the reason rust has all this memory stuff right)
02:42:08 <kmc> elliott: i don't know man
02:42:46 <elliott> you're meant to be the expert!
02:43:03 <shachaf> elliott: well i'm kind of glad someoneis doing "all this memory stuff"
02:43:15 <shachaf> seems like it has its place, whether or not firefox is that place
02:43:44 <elliott> its place is: outside of my head
02:43:55 <kmc> shachaf: yeah
02:44:28 <shachaf> it's kind of odd how a lot of languages are "all about things that" look like existentials, but don't really have actual existentials
02:44:44 <kmc> depending on who you ask Servo is either "definitely going to be the new browser one day" or "a research platform for playing around with different ideas"
02:45:06 <shachaf> as in struct Foo<A> { x: A, f: fn(y: A) -> int } with A existential instead of universal
02:45:19 <elliott> i wonder if they will rebrand
02:46:13 <HackEgo> 2013-07-08 21:17:02: <ion> > unwords . map join . sequence $ [["FI", "RAMA"], ["ZZ"], ["IE", "OTTI"]]
02:46:27 <shachaf> feature request: add "so and so many times ago" to `seen
02:46:46 <Bike> like, i've seen him four thousand times?
02:47:10 <kmc> you re: rebrand
02:47:18 <elliott> kmc: like if servo ever becomes the mozilla browser
02:47:24 <Bike> shouldn't be that hard, just subtract timestamps
02:47:30 <elliott> would they call it firefox or not (of course nobody knows)
02:47:34 <kmc> you mean will they call the browser "servo"
02:47:35 <kmc> yeah probably not
02:47:44 <shachaf> will they call servo gecko
02:47:46 <kmc> it's replacing "gecko" sort of
02:47:50 <kmc> probably not
02:48:02 <shachaf> will they just give up and use webkit
02:48:07 <elliott> they won't call it servo surely
02:48:12 <kmc> servo is architecturally very different from gecko, even aside from being in a different language
02:48:16 <elliott> but they might call it mozilla shinynewbrowser or whatever
02:48:22 <kmc> shachaf: "webkit will outlive the human race"
02:48:27 <kmc> i say that about C sometimes
02:49:06 <Bike> i can't wait for programming to be three hundred years old so people can read the equivalent of alien victorian biology books
02:49:06 <scyrmion> +kmc: what does that mean? The singularity will be in C?
02:49:39 <Gracenotes> Mozilla is developing the Browser of Theseus
02:49:47 <kmc> Bike: but today nobody reads the books written even 30 years ago
02:49:52 <Bike> the singularity will be in notareallanguagese
02:49:59 <kmc> the singularity will not be televised
02:50:06 <Bike> kmc: well when i say "people" i mean weird people like me
02:50:12 <Bike> i am actually reading a thirty year old book right now.
02:50:38 <Bike> or knuth. knuth is also pretty weird
02:51:36 <Bike> and i read biology books old enough to predate evolutionary theory, and they're great.
02:52:30 <Gracenotes> Rust looks highly complicated, like it was a very nice language and then making it consistent/useful involved making an exception somewhere, then making an exception within that, etc.
02:52:30 <scyrmion> there are too many languages in the wiki that only print "Hello world!"... and a large obsession with the 99 bottles of beer lyrics.
02:52:33 <kmc> ur pretty weird imo
02:53:08 <Gracenotes> Or maybe I'm just trying too hard to read into its design philosophy. nicer than C++, anyweh.
02:53:42 <Gracenotes> > 11 Appendix: Rationales and design tradeoffs
02:54:19 <elliott> #1 problem with rust is still those dang braces, sorry
02:54:55 <shachaf> #1 problem with rust is h8rs
02:56:04 <kmc> Gracenotes: yeah that's the best
02:56:10 <Gracenotes> why can't everyone just get along and sing songs together and program COBOL
02:56:28 <kmc> Gracenotes: yes, it does have a bit of that "everything stuck together just so bursting at the seams" feel, like C++, but better
02:57:16 <kmc> providing fine-grained control of allocation in a memory-safe way is *hard*
02:57:36 <shachaf> kmc: imo get :t into the repl hth
02:57:42 <kmc> afaik Rust is the only language even attempting it that has even a chance of being more than an academic project
02:57:48 <shachaf> also make the repl fast instead of slow :'(
02:57:57 <kmc> everyone knows the repl sucks ok
02:58:04 <kmc> on my machine it just crashes
02:58:24 <Gracenotes> make an IRC bot that runs arbitrary Rust code. that's the fastest way to mainstream adoption.
02:58:24 <kmc> there are supposed to be some recent improvements to LLVM's JIT that will help?
02:58:28 <kmc> Gracenotes: they have that
02:58:38 <kmc> in #rust on irc.mozilla.org
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02:59:08 <shachaf> kmc: But I haven't seen any Fibonacci sequences in #rust.
02:59:13 <kmc> not a fancy one
02:59:15 <shachaf> The bot is clearly defective.
02:59:20 <Gracenotes> I remember I made the first bot that ran (somewhat) arbitrary Go code
02:59:23 <kmc> i think it just compiles and loads your code in a big block
02:59:27 <Gracenotes> Then I stopped doing anything with Go ever
02:59:30 <kmc> not like tracing and optimizing it
02:59:38 <kmc> so it's slow to start up *and* produces slow code
02:59:51 <kmc> part of the point of tracing JITs isn't just that they produce good code but they start up quickly
03:00:28 <shachaf> i think there is room in the world for a tracing jit that produces great code using all sorts of runtime information but starts up slowly
03:00:40 <kmc> that's called java -server
03:00:53 <shachaf> i hear hotspot is "p. crazy"
03:01:40 <shachaf> "Always one more than you can handle," the water replied. "That's standard operating procedure."
03:02:01 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_killer_whale
03:02:17 <shachaf> Gracenotes: That sounds like an exciting logic!
03:02:32 <shachaf> data Bool = True | False | FalseKillerWhale
03:02:37 <elliott> Gracenotes: can I kick you for that.
03:02:46 <Bike> i did a report on false killer whales in middle school!
03:02:54 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:02:55 <Bike> so, as a p. crassidens expert, yes you can kick Gracenotes for that
03:02:57 -!- elliott has kicked Gracenotes Gracenotes.
03:02:58 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
03:02:59 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
03:03:08 <elliott> wow it ruins my immersion when you join before I can even deop
03:03:20 <shachaf> elliott is abusing his op powers
03:03:52 <shachaf> well, i didn't read it as such
03:03:58 <elliott> 04:02:49 <Gracenotes> kick yes, kickban no.
03:04:00 * Gracenotes is making some soup later. you can all have it if you come by.
03:04:07 <elliott> man it must be depressing to be a species literally named for not being some other species
03:04:09 <Bike> what kind of soup
03:04:20 <elliott> what kinda aspirations can a false killer whale have
03:04:30 <Bike> elliott: at least their name is like, unrepetitive, mister homo sapiens sapiens
03:04:37 <Gracenotes> like, uh, sausage, jalapenos, something. probably spinach and shallots too.
03:04:47 <shachaf> oh, not even vegetarian soup
03:04:57 <kmc> sounds great
03:04:58 <kmc> what kinda sausage
03:05:17 <oerjan> Gracenotes> why can't everyone just get along and sing songs together and program COBOL <-- COBOL camp?
03:06:37 <kmc> are you sure it's not a dongz joke
03:06:44 <kmc> anyway the answer is "yes" either way
03:06:58 <kmc> mplayer http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Fr-Paris--b%C5%93uf.ogg
03:07:22 <Gracenotes> yes, hopefully the smoking strategy for either is different
03:07:45 <shachaf> imo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kpe_KHDEfgw
03:08:16 <elliott> kmc: i realised it could be a dongz joke afterwards
03:11:14 <Gracenotes> kmc: go to la discothèque on your way home
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03:14:13 <Bike> it's not discotech, isn't it, even though that's how i think of it
03:14:18 <Bike> like a cyborg with a disco ball laser
03:26:29 <coppro> man, rewatching SG-1. I'd forgotton how good Heroes is
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03:43:06 <kmc> hardly anything was said while i was out :/
03:43:34 <Bike> well we thought you wwere ging to be gone longer!
03:43:37 <Bike> we were charging up.
03:43:48 <kmc> you saved up all your witty banter? how considerate
03:44:05 -!- kmc has set topic: <3 | http://underhanded.xcott.com/?page_id=5 | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
03:44:25 <Sgeo> I could easily run a VM more powerful than my old computer
03:44:29 <Sgeo> This is kind of getting weir
03:44:57 <Bike> soon, sgeo will be sucked into an unending hole of VMs, like that one cyberiad story that was pretty cool imo.
03:45:17 <Sgeo> Cascade easily fits on the screen!
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04:07:28 <oerjan> <Bike> http://img.funtasticus.com/2008/nov/050813Panorama/Bad%20Panorama%2011.jpg ready to run <-- omfg
04:31:48 <kmc> Sgeo: maybe it *is* getting kind of weir!
04:34:02 <Gracenotes> weirwolf: a dam that turns into a wolf
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05:15:09 <kmc> hi zzo38, what are you up to this evening
05:16:16 <Sgeo> Maybe if I don't get as much sleep deprivation I won't feel sick tomorrow
05:17:40 <madbr> man, who said x86 was a bad architecture... the RISC architectures are better but for everything else I have my doubts
05:17:43 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know yet.
05:18:01 <zzo38> madbr: It wasn't as bad when it was first invented as it is now
05:18:52 <madbr> I'm looking at the 68k and I'm not convinced that it's better than x86
05:19:40 <zzo38> You might be correct, but, I don't know 68k
05:20:49 <madbr> all the other 8bit instruction sets from about that time were worse than x86 and have accordingly died horribly
05:22:13 <zzo38> That may have been true at the time, but not anymore.
05:23:18 <madbr> Most vliw architectures have also bombed
05:23:44 <madbr> (or at least the general purpose ones)
05:30:14 <madbr> 68k is even more CISC than x86 imho
05:31:37 <kmc> do you consider the baroque system of segmentation / interrupt handling / hardware task switching / etc. on x86 to be part of what makes it CISC?
05:32:04 <kmc> it does seem like RISC architectures tried also to simplify memory management and privilege separation
05:32:07 <Bike> complex everythingbutinstruction set computer
05:32:56 <madbr> kmc: oh, forgot about real mode
05:33:09 <kmc> what about real mode?
05:33:27 <madbr> segmentation is used in real mode
05:33:43 <kmc> segmentation in protected mode is vastly more complicated
05:34:09 <kmc> and you're required to use it to some degree
05:34:21 <kmc> most OSes try to avoid doing anything more than the bare minimum, though
05:34:25 <madbr> true but is it less complicated that other similar CPUs with MMUs and paging?
05:34:48 <kmc> no, I think it's a lot more complicated
05:35:12 <kmc> a lot of architectures do only paging
05:35:25 <kmc> i forgot that the MMU for 68k was an external chip o_O
05:36:15 <kmc> looks pretty complicated too
05:36:32 <kmc> "Wide Selection of Page Sizes from 256 Bytes to 32K Bytes"
05:37:20 <kmc> and a hard filled TLB
05:38:15 <madbr> Doesn't the x86 also have an extra cycle penalty if your segmentation stuff has an offset?¨
05:38:23 <kmc> and it has a 3 bit TLB tag!!
05:38:31 <kmc> madbr: wouldn't be surprised
05:38:43 <madbr> like it has to do an extra addition
05:38:48 <kmc> the subset of x86 features that people use and the subset of x86 features that have fast paths in the chip have co-evolved
05:38:58 <madbr> so you should leave it at 0
05:39:51 <kmc> a segment with offset 0 and limit 3GB is useful for safe access to userspace memory from within a 32-bit kernel
05:39:57 <madbr> also I think they're close to the limit where if they have to do an extra real addition they have to add an extra real life because the clock rate is so high
05:40:00 <kmc> but you can't do the analogous thing in long mode :/
05:40:11 <madbr> *an extra real life cycle
05:40:25 * kmc waves to Fiora
05:41:25 <shachaf> Fiora is a fan of two-cycle things
05:41:44 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
05:41:56 * Fiora sleepily paws around
05:42:18 <madbr> paws are for kittens :3
05:43:04 <Fiora> and for spin-lock loops!
05:43:12 <kmc> also the 68851 MMU is only for the 68020 and earlier, the later chips have other MMUs onboard
05:43:26 <Fiora> intel recommends using paws to avoid performance penalties!
05:43:29 <zzo38> Modern x86 is really complicated and so is modern ARM
05:43:50 <kmc> Fiora: *groan*
05:44:03 <madbr> modern arm is complicated because of all the useful things they put in :D
05:44:16 <kmc> water doesn't have much nutrients and that's why it's so cheap
05:44:25 <zzo38> If addition is slow then can you use other operation such as XOR?
05:44:47 <Fiora> kmc: groan? that was meowgnificat!
05:44:49 <kmc> i wonder if the MC68851 + RAM is capable of arbitrary computation
05:44:51 <Bike> kmc: i'm trying to fit arsenic wells into this, help
05:44:53 <shachaf> hmm, is x86 pause like stm retry
05:45:03 <kmc> shachaf: a little
05:45:05 <madbr> I think the fastest in CMOS is something like NAND
05:45:14 <kmc> also there might be a HTM retry instruction now >_<
05:45:19 <Fiora> shachaf: it's a thing that basically makes the cpu wait a few cycles before doing anything else
05:45:23 <kmc> yeah NAND or NOR, iirc
05:45:24 <madbr> or maybe multiplexing
05:45:27 <Fiora> so it doesn't flood the pipe with repeated memory load requests in like, a spin-wait loop
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05:46:12 <madbr> NAND inside a memory calculation would be kinda crazy tho
05:46:18 <Fiora> it helps performance in hyperthrading (since the other thread on the same core isn't sharing with useless memory loads) and it apparently has some benefit because of a memory ordering thing, where when the spin wait loop ends, the pipeline ends up being flushed because all of the loads are now invalid or something
05:46:33 <kmc> Fiora: what if it just took exclusive ownership of all cache lines accessed in the current loop, and then slept until receiving a cache coherence protocol message asking for them back
05:46:37 <kmc> that would be p. cool
05:46:41 <kmc> also not sure if what I just said makes any sense
05:47:02 <Fiora> I wonder how that would work
05:47:33 <shachaf> kmc: that was vaguely what i was thinking of, i think
05:47:51 <kmc> I wonder if the Haswell HTM does anything like that, since I think the cache is used as the transaction-in-progress buffer
05:47:55 <kmc> I might be wrong about that, too
05:50:02 <zzo38> I would think good idea is to have parallel microcode units with Muxcomp (see Esolang wiki), using XOR for address calculation, and then the program will call the Muxcomp microcodes and run everything in parallel.
05:51:23 <zzo38> That might improve a lot of things, including, not being too complicated, not being too slow, and your program can customize it by rewriting the microcode, too.
05:52:07 <zzo38> How much do you expect such things working?
05:52:14 <kmc> zzo38: Have you built simulators for any of your microarchitectures?
05:52:23 <kmc> some of them sound really brilliantly weird
05:52:34 <kmc> I remember you suggested using a programmable LFSR to derive the next program counter value.....
05:52:42 <Bike> haha, awesome.
05:52:50 <Bike> like a barrel memory or some shit
05:53:04 <kmc> like a drum memory in some absurdly high dimensional space
05:53:15 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I have suggested all of various of these things, but I did not build a simulator or even put all of them in one place, unfortunately. At least, not yet.
05:53:17 <kmc> where your mind will explode if you even begin to comprehend it
05:53:25 <kmc> either that or it's just basic algebra, not sure tbqh
05:53:29 <madbr> hyperbolic space fungeroid
05:53:43 <Bike> weird architectures are cool as hell (wannabe neuroscientist warning)
05:53:45 <kmc> apparently the truth table for XOR is 0x6996966996696996
05:54:03 <Gracenotes> you know, the internet has too few wannabe people
05:54:06 <Bike> the bitwise of the beast
05:54:13 <kmc> Bike: that's not what i was thinking of.
05:54:23 <Bike> Gracenotes: are you being sarcastic or... what.
05:54:38 <zzo38> It is the Thue-Morse sequence, isn't it? Anyways, that is what you make with the XOR like that, I think
05:55:06 <zzo38> Even in Verilog using the ^ unary operator on a number, I think would do that.
05:55:54 <kmc> it is? that's cool
05:56:14 <madbr> how about a cpu where instead of using registers, everything is based on queues
05:56:18 <zzo38> Earlier today I have made improvements to the Fweep and Aimfiz Z-machine interpreters, although now I am not doing that and might do something else, I don't quite know entirely.
05:56:39 <kmc> madbr: that sounds good for a clockless implementation
05:57:03 <madbr> kmc : I'm secretly wondering if some OOO cpus aren't doing that actually
05:57:21 <zzo38> How would you actually do such a think as queues and clockless implementation though really?
05:57:56 <kmc> zzo38: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit
05:58:07 <madbr> like, instead of doing
05:58:19 <madbr> mul rdest, rsrc1, rsrc2
05:58:57 <madbr> add dst, src1, multiply_result_queue
05:59:19 <kmc> you can't name a queue for the result in the 'mul' instruction?
05:59:33 <madbr> it would perfectly handle the multiplication's long latency
05:59:43 <madbr> and you could do it for memory operations as well
06:00:09 <kmc> it's kind of like VLIW right? putting more of the burden of instruction scheduling on the compiler
06:00:30 <Fiora> isn't that exactly what the physical register file is...?
06:00:34 <madbr> the add dst, src1, mulq
06:00:49 <madbr> just blocks until the multiplication result is available
06:01:01 <madbr> so the exact cycle that it's issued varies
06:01:31 <madbr> if you have a bunch of separate execution units, each one with their scheduling queues and input and output queues
06:01:51 <Fiora> I thought that's how it already works...
06:02:06 <madbr> yeah I'm starting to think that's how they did the p2
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06:05:20 <shachaf> hey Taneb do you want to read a sad stories
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06:10:33 <zzo38> I think the TOGA computer would basically consist of a programmable binary counter (although it isn't very efficient, but you can still make any program with it).
06:16:17 <Taneb> I am going to see if I understand my book correctly
06:16:40 <Bike> the one that went over holes and stuff?
06:17:11 <Taneb> It is a bit of a whirlwind tour
06:18:06 <Taneb> What is a Galois field?
06:18:25 <Bike> a finite field
06:19:03 <shachaf> what is a Galois connection?
06:19:04 <Taneb> Field in what sense?
06:19:26 <shachaf> Taneb: commutative division ring hth
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06:20:26 <Taneb> Because I am pretty sure that the field I sometimes walk my dog through that has cows in it is finite
06:20:54 <Bike> a field is a set of objects with addition and multiplication defined, commutatively, and with inverses
06:21:07 <shachaf> no field with cows is finite
06:21:14 <shachaf> it's what's-their-name's theoerm
06:21:47 <Bike> e.g., {0,1} with addition = OR and multiplication = XOR works.
06:22:17 <Bike> er, xor and and.
06:22:31 <Bike> maybe both are equivalent?? beats me
06:22:45 <Taneb> So a field in this sense is a ring where addition and multiplication form A belian groups
06:23:25 <shachaf> well it's a ring where multiplication is commutative (addition is always commutative anyway) and you have multiplicative inverses except for 0
06:23:34 <shachaf> the except for 0 bit is important hth
06:25:15 <coppro> 0 can't have a multiplicative inverse since it must annihilate the ring
06:25:20 <coppro> due to being an additive inverse
06:26:02 <shachaf> 0 is sometimes known as "Frodo"
06:26:32 <coppro> Taneb: try proving that 0 * a = 0
06:26:40 <coppro> oh, and there's one other important property
06:26:48 <coppro> without it nothing works
06:26:52 <shachaf> yes, but rings have that anyway
06:27:05 <shachaf> rings wouldn't be a thing without it
06:27:27 <coppro> oh, misread your thing
06:27:49 <shachaf> wow this place has no appreciation
06:28:05 <shachaf> or is it just that that pun is an old and tired one?? i haven't heard it before
06:29:01 <HackEgo> 405) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once.
06:30:29 <Taneb> oerjan, see? I'm consistent!
06:30:36 <shachaf> hmm 0∙a=a is a semiring axiom
06:34:16 <Taneb> ab= a(0+b)= (a0)+(ab)
06:36:46 <Bike> yep that's pretty demonstratumed.
06:42:17 <Gracenotes> infinity is my favorite natural number
06:42:20 <Taneb> Ooh, the next chapter is on chaos theory
06:42:38 <Bike> imo read up on ICAF
06:44:17 <Taneb> First I shall read up on x_t+1=k x_t (1- x_t )
06:44:28 <Bike> logistic map, right?
06:45:10 <Bike> here's hoping your book mentions feigenbaum
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06:58:28 <Taneb> Bike, it did not. :(
07:00:02 <Taneb> And now it is on to the Black-Scholes equation
07:00:53 <Bike> oh well. you could probably write a whole book just on the logisti cmap
07:00:56 <shachaf> also that should be named after zzo38
07:04:29 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal I was going to suggest maybe X/Y/Z translations -- I've seen those confuse the Hugin fast preview window -- but if the remapped images are okay, then that's not it. Weird. (Also speaking of panostuff, I fiddled together a panohead and took some test pictures -- http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGJ1XdS -- there's also some from the university campus that I haven't stitched yet.)
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07:15:48 <Taneb> This chapter is scary
07:17:43 <Bike> still black-zzoles?
07:24:09 <Taneb> I do not want to work in finance
07:25:06 <shachaf> are fine ants like fine arts
07:25:43 <kmc> Taneb: why are you reading about black-scholes?
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07:26:46 <Taneb> kmc, it is the final formula in 17 formulas that changed the world
07:27:10 <kmc> is RSA in there
07:27:38 <Gracenotes> yeah, if they don't go light on the "changing the world" I might read it...
07:28:57 <Taneb> I do not know what DH is
07:29:00 <kmc> I started thinking about how something like TLS would work in a world with only symmetric cryptography
07:29:10 <kmc> i think it's basically possible, but a huge pain in the ass
07:29:27 <Gracenotes> actively involved in protocols, that is
07:30:08 <kmc> yeah instead of CAs passively signing certificates, they would interact as trusted third parties for key negotiation
07:30:21 <kmc> but you could still have a hierarchy of trust similar to TLS today, I think
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07:31:44 <Taneb> s/formulas/equations/
07:32:35 <kmc> Taneb: I meant Diffie-Hellman key exchange, which predates RSA a bit and was sort of the start of public key cryptography
07:35:00 <shachaf> hmm, is diffie-hellman an equation
07:36:01 <kmc> you could say it's B^a ≡ A^b (mod p) where ...
07:36:50 <kmc> black-scholes isn't very good either
07:37:19 <Gracenotes> I suppose the equation for RSA would be ed = 1 mod (p-1)(q-1).. and also mod pq...
07:37:21 <kmc> but that's ok
07:37:46 <Gracenotes> maybe say phi(n), n = pq, gcd(p, q) = 1? ...getting a bit complicated.
07:39:45 <Taneb> It is: pythagoras, logarithms, differentiation, gravity, imaginary numbers, F-E+V=2, normal distribution, wave equation, Fourier transform, Navier-Stokes, Maxwell's equations, the second law of thermodynamics, relativity, Schrodigner's equation, information theory, logistc formula, Black-Scholes
07:39:50 <Gracenotes> okay, so the 17 equations, so to speak, seem to be: 1. Pythagoras's theorem 2. Logarithms 3. Calculus 4. Newton's law of gravity 5. ...
07:40:17 <kmc> do you think public key cryptography changed the world to a comparable degree
07:41:01 <shachaf> imo the world is immutable
07:41:13 <Gracenotes> I mean, crypto has not changed things *that* much, I don't think.
07:41:49 <Gracenotes> crypto has always been important for states.
07:42:13 <Bike> well, obviously anyb ook like that is going to simplify things, and/or make cuts
07:42:21 <kmc> you could claim that none of the tech giants of today would exist without it
07:42:28 <kmc> i'm not really sure about that though
07:42:38 <kmc> I think people don't really give a shit about security when there's enough convenience to be had
07:42:41 <kmc> myself included
07:43:02 <kmc> it used to be you would just read your credit card number out loud on a POTS line
07:43:20 <Gracenotes> hm, so crypto is mentioned in the entropy chapter, mainly the use of basic information theory in cryptanalysis
07:43:22 <kmc> Gracenotes: also, bitcoin, but that's more of a future-potential thing
07:43:31 <Bike> i'm kind of curious how the logistic map is world-changing
07:43:58 <Gracenotes> there's no reason why a bunch of servers couldn't use fancy https
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07:44:00 <Bike> i can't think of any applications for it other than maybe ecology
07:44:10 <Bike> and that's kind of a stretch.
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07:44:20 <Taneb> Bike, he used it to introduce chaos theory
07:44:22 <Gracenotes> Bike: logistic map? I'd have thought basic arithmetic, a la Napier
07:44:29 <kmc> welp i killed irssi somehow
07:44:41 <Bike> Gracenotes: ...what?
07:44:42 <Gracenotes> er, nevermind, conflated with logarithms.
07:44:49 <kmc> probably by banging on the keyboard like a stoned idiot
07:44:56 <Gracenotes> which is what I imagine chapter 2 is about. neverminds.
07:45:14 <Bike> i'm not sure what world-changing appliations chaos theory has had either honestly :P
07:45:23 <Bike> as exciting as staring at double pendulums is
07:45:32 <kmc> have you ever looked at a fractal, on acid
07:45:54 <Bike> now i want a bong that's a double pendulum
07:46:08 <Taneb> kmc, I tried but it dissolved
07:46:09 <Bike> which doesn't even make sense
07:46:14 <Gracenotes> kmc: I'd imagine xaos would be pretty fun.
07:46:25 <Bike> maybe an inverted pendulum bong
07:46:26 <kmc> oh, thanks for the suggestion :)
07:46:35 <Bike> have ot balance it on my head
07:46:49 <Gracenotes> xoas is just generally fun to zoom into
07:47:03 <kmc> you've seen electric sheep, right?
07:47:06 <kmc> sadly not interactive
07:48:01 <kmc> http://www.electricsheep.org/
07:48:48 <Gracenotes> yeah, in xaos, just set the zoom speed really high and try to avoid 'boring' (non-recursive) areas
07:48:54 <kmc> the paper about how they're rendered is cool too http://flam3.com/flame.pdf
07:48:55 <Gracenotes> I used to do that a lot... good way to waste time
07:49:18 <shachaf> whoa, dude, xaos ~~ "chaos"??
07:49:40 <shachaf> i ve always pronounced each letter
07:50:15 <Gracenotes> actually, if you do it on something like Barnsley, it's like falling with a lot of bars in the way
07:51:45 <Taneb> Would it be considered rude to email the author asking for further reading?
07:52:00 <Bike> is there a bibliography, though?
07:52:08 <kmc> shachaf: what are some good channels i'm not in
07:52:33 <kmc> i should probably lurk in ##electronics again, that was pretty great
07:52:38 <Bike> bibliographies are like the best parts of books because there's a billion more books in them
07:52:46 <Bike> ##electronics? is it actually about electronics
07:52:55 <shachaf> (the joke is that #haskell is often not that good :'( )
07:52:57 <Bike> plus the cites are always all over the place
07:53:06 <shachaf> i still like the highs of #haskell though!!
07:53:11 <Bike> my awesome new book on neural development cites hayek, the economist
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07:53:20 <Bike> well FINE jerk
07:53:47 <kmc> Bike: electronics + misc mad science
07:54:17 <Bike> "The natural concept tree: a study of learning in pigeons" pigeons clearly don't get enough credit
07:54:27 <Bike> electronics iss cool and i don't know shit about it etc etc
07:54:41 <shachaf> Bike: then how come http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html
07:54:58 <kmc> there i'm in ##electronics now
07:55:23 <kmc> what happens there
07:55:25 <Bike> +whatevermeansyoucan'ttagwithoutnickserv
07:55:37 <shachaf> Gracenotes: do you like the iso standard kmc is about to give the number for
07:55:40 <Gracenotes> People make snarky comments about tisanes sometimes for no reason.
07:56:25 <Bike> "I will lol if it's three-phase" yeah this is pretty good
07:56:35 <shachaf> i had tea with Gracenotes once
07:57:08 <Bike> the thing i don't like about bibliographies in books is they don't have the backreferences to where they're cited, like wikipedia articles do
07:57:14 <kmc> IRCing while working with high voltage: the best
07:57:18 <Gracenotes> kmc: what about, like gaiwans and stuff though
07:57:24 <kmc> what's that
07:57:39 <Gracenotes> ISO 3103 is controversial in its cultural imperialism
07:58:09 <Bike> ugh I saw "Ca⁺⁺" and thought it was something about programming, time to sleep
07:59:11 <kmc> Gracenotes: fair point
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08:00:43 <Gracenotes> there are so many options in xaos that are just for screwing with your mind
08:00:53 <Gracenotes> smooth color palette cycling, rotation, autozoom
08:01:04 <Bike> "soviet bcd to decimal decoders" this is fantastic kmc
08:01:14 <Bike> i have no idea what the fuck is going on
08:01:25 <shachaf> should i be in ##electronics
08:01:30 <shachaf> i used to be there but then i left
08:01:34 <kmc> hope i have made your day just a little bit more cyberpunk
08:02:16 <Bike> maybe i can get into BEAM through this somehow
08:03:49 <shachaf> kmc: you could also give a talk at the mountain view haskell thing
08:04:07 <shachaf> or you could go see conal's talk
08:04:14 <kmc> what's conal's talk
08:04:40 <shachaf> Unless other offers surface, Conal will give a talk. Some possible topics: top-down vs bottom-up data structures, memoization, automatic differentiation, denotational semantics, circuit timing via linear algebra. If you have a talk offer or request, please chime in.
08:04:50 <kmc> that's good stuff
08:05:07 <kmc> i wonder if people would like a "Rust for Haskell programmers" talk
08:05:12 <kmc> i'm not qualified to give one yet, though
08:05:26 <Bike> http://dickhealth.org/post/52887357182/my-dick-looks-like-a-perilous-thicket-of-briers aaaaand gone
08:05:56 <shachaf> kmc: why should you let that stop you
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08:19:00 <fizzie> I shouldn't use the IRC input line for notes.)
08:33:58 <oerjan> fizzie: *MWAHAHAHA* we know your secret notes!
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08:50:30 <fizzie> I was just fiddling with gstreamer; I've always wanted to take a time-lapse picture of something, but my camera doesn't know how to do that; realized the other day that the N900 has a passable camera, and can be controlled programmatically.
08:51:58 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fCXS seems to work nicely for capturing one 1080p-sized frame per second over wifi. (JPEG'd, unfortunately; raw frames are too big for the TCP part.)
08:55:26 <fizzie> "Gunna" be the most exciting video on the YouTubes for sure https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130709-frame00000000.jpg
08:56:15 <fizzie> (In some frames... there's... a car...)
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09:04:12 <fizzie> Oh no, my video camera started ringing. :/
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09:06:49 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20130709-frame00000963.jpg -- apparently taking a picture and vibrating aren't really supposed to be done simultaneously.
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10:36:02 <Taneb> shachaf: what was that thingy that ion was working on
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10:37:36 <shachaf> Well, there are these types Mu/Nu/Fix.
10:38:05 <shachaf> They're all equivalent, in Haskell. The exercises were to write mu2nu and so on, and figure out some things about them.
10:38:27 <Taneb> Give me definitions of the types and I will give it an independent go?
10:38:46 <shachaf> newtype Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) }
10:38:56 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
10:39:07 <shachaf> data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
10:39:26 <shachaf> So the exercises are, uh...
10:40:15 <shachaf> Mu Maybe/Nu Maybe = Nat, more or less. Without using recursion or Nat, write muZero, muSucc, muToInt, nuZero, nuSucc, etc.
10:40:56 <shachaf> Figure out what the differences (and the similarities) are between Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe.
10:41:05 <shachaf> Um, there was something else I was going to say.
10:41:08 <Taneb> I don't even have a syntax highlighter on this computer...
10:41:31 <Taneb> It's not my computer, I wouldn't feel right installing it
10:41:41 <shachaf> You should get ghci somehow.
10:41:42 <Taneb> mu2fix (Mu r) = r Fix
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10:43:42 <shachaf> Oh: Write inMu :: Functor f => f (Mu f) -> Mu f, and similarly for outMu, inNu, outNu
10:44:17 <shachaf> (Easy version: Write inFix and outFix.)
10:44:50 <shachaf> Prove that Mu F and Nu F are fixed points of F (tricky).
10:50:26 <Taneb> fix2mu (Fix f) = Mu $ \r -> r $ flip (runMu . fix2mu) r <$> f
10:52:02 <shachaf> If it type-checks then I guess so?
10:52:10 <Taneb> I have no idea if it typechecks!
10:52:30 <Taneb> I have some idea whether it type-checks or not
10:52:47 <Taneb> But I'm just doing this in Notepad and my brain
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11:08:35 <Taneb> fix2nu f = Nu f runFix
11:08:49 <Taneb> (I'm using School of Haskell to test my code now)
11:08:58 <Taneb> (that compiles but feels weird...)
11:09:29 <shachaf> Weirder than: mu2fix m = runMu m Fix ?
11:09:40 <shachaf> It looks exactly dual to me. :-)
11:11:51 <Taneb> I'm not used to existential quantification
11:12:06 <shachaf> Well, it's actually not weird.
11:12:22 <shachaf> But it's weird when you're not used to it.
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11:16:21 <Taneb> Am I allowed to say mu2nu = fix2nu . mu2fix ?
11:17:06 <shachaf> Sure, I guess. Or you're allowed to to inline them.
11:17:17 <shachaf> It's also possible to write mu2nu without the Fix type, but trickier.
11:17:42 <Koen_> Chasles applied to haskell function composition?
11:18:05 <Taneb> The other way round introduces a functor constraint which I do not know whether it is necessary or not
11:18:38 <Taneb> Thinking about it, it seems necessary?
11:20:10 <Taneb> On another note, Ian Stewart's personal webpage looks very 1997
11:20:16 <Taneb> http://freespace.virgin.net/ianstewart.joat/index.htm
11:21:26 <shachaf> cata :: Functor f => (f a -> a) -> Fix f -> a
11:21:49 <shachaf> ana :: Functor f => (a -> f a) -> a -> Fix f
11:22:29 <shachaf> hylo :: Functor f => (f b -> b) -> (a -> f a) -> a -> b
11:22:38 <shachaf> These functions should seem familiar.
11:22:47 <shachaf> These are the "hard" directions.
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11:39:18 <Taneb> I think I have gone wrong somewhere
11:39:29 <Taneb> > print $ muToInt $ muSucc $ muSucc $ muSucc muZero
11:39:30 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `muToInt'Not in scope: `muSucc'Not in scope: `muSucc'Not in s...
11:40:21 <Taneb> It seems I've written "double and add one" instead of succ
11:41:45 <shachaf> It might help -- especially with Nu -- to write one, two, etc. yourself before writing succ.
11:41:57 <Taneb> I'm doing that with Mu
11:43:12 <Taneb> Okay, got it working this time
11:43:58 <shachaf> Taneb: You can also write the isomorphism between Mu Maybe and newtype Nat = Nat { runNat :: forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a }, if you feel like it.
11:44:03 <shachaf> (But it's pretty straightforward.)
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13:21:02 <elliott> is there anything that can simulate having additional latency on a network connection?
13:21:16 <elliott> it would be nice to be able to see for myself how much e.g. some additional ping would affect irssi in mosh
13:22:52 <boily> IIRC, if you run your stuff in virtualbox, there are options to simulate lag and packet drop in vbox's network config.
13:24:09 <elliott> so I could like proxy mosh through a virtualbox with a simulated bad internet connection :p
13:24:37 <boily> something convoluted and hackish like that, yes.
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13:33:02 <fizzie> Linux's traffic shaping layer has the "netem" module for that, but it's probably not the most user-friendly way.
13:33:33 <fizzie> http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/networking/netem "This is the simplest example, it just adds a fixed amount of delay to all packets going out of the local Ethernet. [[ tc qdisc add dev eth0 root netem delay 100ms ]]"
13:33:39 <fizzie> I guess that's not so hard, after all.
13:33:47 <elliott> fizzie: I figured out why Tilaa's pricing was so absurd: I'm paying $20/mo now, but I was converting the euro prices to GBP and going "ooh, it's 20, like I'm paying now".
13:34:53 <boily> fizzie: netem's not hard, just complex, and a powerful timewaster where you can tweak your day away and not notice anything.
13:35:18 <fizzie> Also: I have just successfully captured a three-and-a-quarter hour video (6 minutes, 28 seconds at 30 fps) of the view from the window of this office. It is MOST EXCITING.
13:36:15 <elliott> hm I guess I should take another look at hetzner
13:36:19 <elliott> though tilaa's prices are still good
13:36:30 <boily> I humbly request that you shall provide me with this EXCITEMENT you are talking about.
13:37:09 <elliott> fizzie: don't do it. he's just trying to deduce your coordinates and body weigh.
13:39:12 <boily> elliott: no need for deduction, I already have them.
13:39:32 <boily> (that reminds me, I should calligraphy and frame the list. it truly is a work of art and beauty and weigh)
13:41:51 <Jafet> My coordinates are $$\bf{0}$$.
13:45:16 <fizzie> I should probably upload it to YouTube, I'm sure I'd win it.
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13:47:26 <boily> Jafet: your coordinates are nearly as creativuseless as elliot's were.
13:47:37 <fizzie> (First, though; home.)
13:58:36 <elliott> Gregor: can UMLBox do "read access to this directory but write access to this single filename in it (that may or may not exist)"?
14:00:35 <Gregor> No, its permissions are based on mounts so are only at the directory level.
14:01:38 <elliott> I guess you could do it with a unionfs of some kind?
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14:49:51 <fizzie> boily: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0w8rDXZohA if you can HANDLE IT.
15:01:04 <boily> fizzie: the TREES are nice, as are the DOGS.
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15:54:18 <fizzie> I wonder if it's gonna "go viral". I understand that happens when you upload to the tube.
15:56:58 <Jafet> I'm not sure if I want to be infected by that.
15:58:16 <boily> I, for one, welcome our new Finnish overlords.
15:58:21 <kmc> shachaf: did you get booted from irc.mozilla.org?
15:58:33 <elliott> did shachaf overdo the monoids jokes
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16:00:20 <ion> https://medium.com/surveillance-state/a6e0e5fca935
16:00:32 <ion> I love monoid jokes. They are so easy.
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16:13:19 <Yonkie> monoid jokes? what is it?
16:13:51 <coppro> ion: I find they typically lack depth
16:18:52 <kmc> elliott: yeah you can use netem, or keithw's thing http://alfalfa.mit.edu/
16:19:00 <kmc> which takes an actual trace of delivery times on a cell network and replays it
16:19:37 <elliott> suspect I'm out of luck being stuck on OS X
16:19:43 <elliott> unless I do the hideous virtualbox solution
16:22:49 <kmc> write a LD_PRELOAD or whatever the OS equiv is that just slows down network calls
16:22:52 <kmc> OS X equiv*
16:24:43 <elliott> at that point it becomes easier to spend the $20 on a month's service so I can just test it :P
16:27:36 <kmc> but where's the hack value in that
16:28:04 <Jafet> If you really want to test a high latency connection, you should use a service that charges $5
16:30:48 <kmc> in the rust language meeting
16:31:49 <elliott> have you told them it's weird as heck yet
16:31:55 <kmc> people are discussing whether to continue to use linked lists of small bits of memory as a stack
16:32:42 <elliott> spaghetti stack type stuff?
16:32:49 <kmc> yeah probably
16:33:04 <elliott> also, whine whine conflation of language and implementation whine whine that I don't actually have the heart to care about
16:33:13 <kmc> well it's the rust implementation meeting too ;P
16:33:30 <elliott> they should have them in separate buildings
16:33:36 <elliott> have to be decontaminated to pass between them
16:33:39 <kmc> also it might end up in the language because when you call a C function it needs to give you a big contiguous stack, and there will be an annotation to say how much you want
16:33:45 <elliott> and no bringing in materials from one to the other
16:33:47 <kmc> and whether to do it earlier than necessary
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16:45:19 <elliott> kmc: do they actually need to set up a full stack for C FFI
16:46:21 <kmc> well your C function wants some stack
16:46:30 <kmc> it's not going to call the magic __morestack function or whatever
16:47:12 <jsvine> After a few weeks of being distracted by another project, I'm back on #esoteric
16:47:25 <kmc> elliott: this is only really a problem on 32-bit; on 64-bit you can just allocate 2MB of address space per stack and let the VM subsystem fill in pages as needed
16:47:49 <elliott> kmc: oh I see, it is not that the stack gets filled in with entries corresponding to rust
16:47:55 <elliott> do they really care about 32-bit :p
16:48:04 <kmc> elliott: yeah, because Servo is supposed to be a mobile browser too
16:48:14 <kmc> and mobile is going to be 32-bit for a while yet
16:48:18 <elliott> um, like, I thought you meant that they'd allocate a stack for C FFI and then fill it with entries corresponding to rust call frames.
16:48:38 <elliott> hm, isn't RAM in phones pushing 1-2 gigs now?
16:48:47 <elliott> I guess they can just do PAE type stuff for a long while
16:49:09 <kmc> phones have a lot of processes running
16:49:25 <kmc> but I think it'll be a while yet before low-end phones have >4 GB
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17:27:54 <boily> I was quietly, randomly "fortune -a"ing, and once again I stumbled upon a very short and mysterious message:
17:27:56 <Taneb> shachaf, I got stuck and wandered off
17:28:04 <boily> “Mene, mene, tekel, upharsen.”
17:28:38 <boily> anyone here has an idea about its meaning?
17:29:13 <Taneb> Sounds German? Possibly Yiddish?
17:29:32 <fizzie> [[ The expression originates from the Book of Daniel, Chapter 5, from the handwriting on the wall that was witnessed at a banquet hosted by king Belshazzar. As those at the feast profaned the sacred vessels pillaged from the Jerusalem Temple, a disembodied hand appeared and wrote on the palace wall the words, "Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin". The prophet Daniel was summoned and interpreted this ...
17:29:38 <fizzie> ... message as the imminent end for the Babylonian kingdom. That night, Belshazzar was killed and the Persians sacked the capital city. ]]
17:29:48 <fizzie> (I have looked this up for a different place where it was referred to. Bored of the Rings, perhaps.)
17:30:11 <ion> http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/07/09/0052211/sent-to-jail-because-of-a-software-bug?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt
17:30:15 <boily> google translate says it's Norwegian. it's biblical enough for me.
17:30:37 <boily> «Believe, believe, Tekel, upharsin.»
17:31:18 <Taneb> Ya gotta believe me, Tekel, they be upharsin', I tell ya!
17:31:19 <fizzie> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%205:25&version=KJV
17:32:21 <boily> Taneb: maybe upharsin is Old Norse for "fternooner".
17:32:45 <fizzie> "[26] This is the interpretation of the thing: /Mene/; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. [27] /Tekel/; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. [28] /Peres/; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians." -- also the translation.
17:33:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure why it's "Peres" when it was "Upharsin" just three verses up, but I'm sure it's some kinda language thing.
17:33:42 <Taneb> What's the etymology of "doona", as in the Australian-English synonym of duvet?
17:34:34 <Taneb> Oh, it was a brand name
17:35:15 <Taneb> From Scandinavian "dyna"?
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17:38:15 <Taneb> Also! (I am easily distracted)
17:38:22 <Taneb> No wait, that is a stupid idea
17:39:52 <Taneb> Wait! It is a less stupid idea than I previously thought!
17:40:06 <Taneb> Still pretty stupid, though
17:40:13 * boily distractingly pokes Taneb
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17:40:27 <Taneb> Using different colours to compress memory!
17:40:52 <Taneb> ~metar oh god I am on holiday and do not know the nearest airport
17:41:45 <metasepia> EGNH 091720Z 30007KT CAVOK 21/14 Q1027
17:42:34 <boily> hm. both wightian airfields aren't listed...
17:42:35 <Taneb> Isle of Wight/Sandown airport is closest
17:42:57 <Taneb> Send an angry message to the metarthorities
17:43:24 <boily> I'll have to implement multiple metarsources.
17:44:09 <metasepia> EGHI 091720Z 03009KT 360V070 CAVOK 24/08 Q1025
17:45:11 <boily> wunderground puts you in Southampton when searching for EGHN.
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17:47:35 <Taneb> To be fair, Southamption is about as close to the Isle of Wight you can get without actually being on the Isle of Wight or a boat or getting quite wet
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17:53:33 <Gracenotes> My favorite series of rhymes involving areas of Britain is "All those angry letter writers / Like disgusted from the Isle of Wight and / Mad from Hull, and outraged from Leeds / And slightly annoyed from Berwick-on-Tweed"
17:54:29 <Gracenotes> s/and/or/ if you like feminine half-rhymes.
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17:55:45 <boily> we had a Hull in Québec, but it was assimilated into Gatineau / Ottawa.
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18:30:30 <boily> katla: oh yeah? yeah about what?
18:36:08 <Bike> oh shit, it's beaky
18:42:02 <Bike> he's saying sentences that seem to convey information!! shocking
18:42:33 <elliott> i heard about soldering iron aventures
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18:58:19 <metasepia> As the recent sightings of bumper stickers reading "IN CASE OF RAPTURE, THIS
18:58:19 <metasepia> VEHICLE WILL BE UNMANNED" have created a great deal of confusion, Fortune
18:58:19 <metasepia> offers the following excerpts from the 1989 printing of the State of Maryland
18:58:19 <metasepia> If you notice a glorious light in the sky, a sound as of an infinite
18:58:20 <metasepia> choir of unearthly voices, and a host of winged beings descending from the
18:58:20 <metasepia> heavens, do not panic. If you are on the freeway, move to the shoulder as
18:58:21 <metasepia> soon as it is safe to do so, activate your hazard blinkers, and wait for the
18:58:21 <metasepia> end of the world. If you are Saved, it is especially important that you do
18:58:22 <metasepia> this BEFORE you are carried to your Eternal Reward, in order that your vehicle
18:58:22 <metasepia> not become a hazard to others. Remember, Rapture is the number one cause of
18:58:23 <metasepia> automobile accidents during major spiritual upheavals. You may experience a
18:58:23 <metasepia> feeling of discorporation ("being pulled from one's body") while driving. To
18:58:24 <metasepia> ensure the safety of your passengers and other drivers, move to the shoulder
18:58:54 <boily> ah! I hit a flood!
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19:19:52 <metasepia> The real trouble with women is that they have *all* the pussy.
19:21:55 <elliott> metasepia.................
19:22:18 * boily smacks his bot with a rolled newspaper. "bad bot"
19:22:20 <mnoqy> is that supposed to mean
19:22:21 <metasepia> Pig: An animal (Porcus omnivorous) closely allied to the human race by the
19:22:21 <metasepia> splendor and vivacity of its appetite, which, however, is inferior in scope,
19:23:22 <FreeFull> I don't get the ones with the uppercase words
19:23:27 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/hZWW I... don't think that's right.
19:23:44 <FreeFull> For example this one: "When I met th'POPE back in '58, I scrubbed him with a MILD SOAP or DETERGENT for 15 minutes. He seemed to enjoy it ..."
19:24:46 <boily> those are zippy-the-pinhead-like. a kind of surreal madlib, if you want.
19:25:12 <boily> fizzie: that sounds awfully similar to a grad student research project.
19:25:34 <fizzie> boily: In reality, it's just non-study-related fiddling.
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19:33:04 <fizzie> As usual, it was a case of nuns-in-nuns-out. I mean, NaNs.
19:35:52 <boily> another victim of St-nAnne of the Sisterhood of Uncomputable Numbers.
19:36:03 <Gracenotes> incidentally, maybe the brand name 'Cutter' isn't the best for a U-lock
19:36:40 <coppro> boily: fun problem: what is 0x1p1023 + 0x1p1023 - 0x1p1023 - 0x1p1023?
19:37:30 * boily uses his fingers...
19:38:55 <boily> coppro: I end up with a green zebra.
19:39:06 <boily> I think I made a mental mistake somewhere...
19:40:43 <boily> coppro: that equation put into an unsigned long long, then printfed, gives me 0.
19:41:45 <coppro> FreeFull: floating point exponent
19:42:20 <coppro> boily: in floating point it's variously +inf,-inf, 0, and NaN depending on how you order the operations
19:42:52 <boily> now that I doubled it, I get +inf.
19:43:02 <Gracenotes> this is annoying, nonetheless, I need to get a bike lock that's convenient to use, but I also do want to get a better bike within a few months.
19:52:48 <fizzie> The whole channel would certainly benefit from a better bike.
19:53:38 <Gracenotes> Fuck. Anyone who has anything to do with bicycles and bicycle locks doesn't remotely fucking believe in cool URIs
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20:07:16 <fizzie> I made a soundtrack to that u-tube video, but can't figure out how to paste it in posthumously.
20:10:04 <fizzie> I guess it's not a possible.
20:18:10 <FreeFull> Youtube editor thing could work
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21:07:19 <kmc> it disconnected me and wouldn't let me reconnect with SSL on port 6697
21:07:22 <kmc> only plaintext on 6667
21:07:56 * shachaf is using plaintext anyway.
21:18:27 <kmc> first servo patch \o/ https://github.com/mozilla/servo/commit/cfffd0542404b60923f3f524f5144693d9b89f00
21:18:35 <kmc> myndzi: <3
21:18:49 <kmc> that kind of looks like he's hanging onto a cliff made of text o_O
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21:19:45 <Fiora> kmc: is that your first patch at mozilla? :o
21:19:54 <shachaf> what kind of equality does it derive
21:20:00 <elliott> kmc: mozilla getting their money's worth there
21:20:03 <kmc> shachaf: the best kind
21:20:05 <kmc> elliott: ikr
21:20:08 <elliott> kmc, Head Instance Deriver
21:20:18 <kmc> today instances, tomorrow the world
21:20:27 <Fiora> congrats! also, nice that your first patch actually removes code XD
21:20:36 <kmc> i am pleased about that
21:20:42 <kmc> removing code is the best
21:20:45 <elliott> ok now you have to keep a net negative.
21:20:55 <kmc> elliott: I was net negative on Mosh for a long time
21:21:01 <kmc> because I deleted a bunch of bundled third party libraries
21:21:10 <elliott> btw what is their really wacky merge thing like
21:21:11 <Bike> kmcodedestroyer
21:21:21 <kmc> it's not too bad
21:21:54 <kmc> you open a pull request the normal way, then someone reviews it and replies with "r+" to accept it, then the bot merges to branch auto, runs tests on several platforms, and if that passes it merges to master
21:22:42 <elliott> what happens to auto if the tests fail
21:22:59 <kmc> chaos in the streets
21:24:11 <shachaf> so an instance is called an "implementation"
21:24:25 <shachaf> betraying rust's operational roots
21:24:48 <elliott> so what is the point of auto if it doesn't handle tests failing...
21:26:01 <kmc> it probably does something sane, I just don't know what ;P
21:28:23 <elliott> maybe I should work on rust
21:28:26 <elliott> instead of being bored half the time
21:30:59 <elliott> unfortunately I am lazy 100% of the time
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21:42:52 <HackEgo> Ermelys: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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21:46:16 <Koen_> did the colours change?
21:46:36 <mnoqy> they were never fixed
21:50:21 <HackEgo> Koen_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:50:58 <oerjan> hm i'm wondering if all the spanish speakers are just because our channel starts with es...
21:52:15 <Koen_> my rainbow is better than yours Ermelys
21:52:24 <elliott> oerjan: let's move to #oteric
21:52:51 <oerjan> "Did you mean: esoteric"
21:53:49 <oerjan> something tells me S. Oteric on facebook is not using his real name.
21:54:30 <oerjan> also no:oter = en:otter
22:01:11 <oerjan> (by which i mean that it looks related through a few plausible sound changes)
22:02:18 <oerjan> especially as dropping w before o is something that happened in norse.
22:02:34 <oerjan> (e.g. no:ulv = en:wolf)
22:02:46 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:03:02 <oerjan> no:odin older_germanic:wotan
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22:04:36 <oerjan> yes, but does it refer to the _norse_ god or to the corresponding ancient polish/slavic god
22:05:09 <oerjan> because if it was really anciently related, it'd be the latter.
22:05:33 <FreeFull> Slavic gods are a different parthenon
22:06:52 <HackEgo> olist (898): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
22:06:58 <shachaf> oerjan: how come you didn't tell me :'(
22:07:31 <oerjan> because i just found out at the same time as you hth
22:08:00 <Koen_> there's a bug on my screen
22:08:10 <Koen_> apparently it likes your 'l's
22:08:56 <oerjan> = no:bomull, although that's a half-translated borrowing from de:Baumwolle
22:09:38 <shachaf> oerjan: oh it came out 8 minutes ago
22:09:38 <oerjan> i suspect the polish is as well
22:10:54 <oerjan> huh, i vaguely didn't think cotton was known in europe in proto-times
22:11:04 <fizzie> (fi:puuvilla, also "tree wool".)
22:11:23 <oerjan> well maybe it's a compound of ba- and wełna
22:11:36 <oerjan> FreeFull: so does ba- mean tree in polish too, then?
22:12:12 <oerjan> ...that doesn't prove ba- doesn't mean tree :P
22:14:00 <FreeFull> oerjan: Ba doesn't mean tree =P
22:14:07 <oerjan> huh america had their own cotton plants which were domesticated
22:14:38 <oerjan> "During the late medieval period, cotton became known as an imported fiber in northern Europe, without any knowledge of how it was derived, other than that it was a plant; noting its similarities to wool, people in the region could only imagine that cotton must be produced by plant-borne sheep."
22:15:36 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_Lamb_of_Tartary
22:17:51 <kmc> also it was once believed that barnacle geese hatch out of goose barnacles
22:18:00 <Gracenotes> this is more meat-from-meat, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mock_Turtle
22:30:41 <Vorpal> That sounds like a rather nasty disease. :(
22:30:52 <kmc> "oh the horping balls"
22:31:10 <Vorpal> Now you made it sound like an STD
22:31:45 <Vorpal> fizzie, Your link in the lambdabot message. It isn't working, even after enabling js on that site.
22:32:39 <Vorpal> Let me try another browser
22:33:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is that a home made pano head?
22:34:34 <Vorpal> Also I'm TRYING to install the haskell platform on this windows machine.
22:34:53 <Vorpal> I hit a bug though where it locks up on adding stuff to PATH. For about 15 minutes per item it is adding.
22:35:08 <Vorpal> There is a bug report open
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22:40:08 <shachaf> This is like some kind of pattern.
22:40:12 <kmc> do you know mike4_
22:40:13 <FreeFull> Windows sucks, so I don't think the haskell people don't concentrate on it as much
22:40:18 <kmc> also which pattern
22:40:51 <elliott> is he linking to articles that prove crypto is a waste of time
22:41:05 <kmc> he's just being thick
22:41:31 <oerjan> well i _did_ succeed in installing the haskell platform on windows (8) the other day, it may have been slow but it was relatively painless. the pain happened when i tried to run cabal install :P
22:41:33 <FreeFull> Why would crypto be a waste of time?
22:41:36 <elliott> vaguely considering joining ##crypto just to see the trolls
22:41:49 <oerjan> (_don't_ try to do it from inside winghci hth)
22:41:53 <elliott> FreeFull: it seems to be his schtick
22:41:59 <shachaf> kmc: a "migratory" pattern, maybe
22:42:06 <kmc> does he join #haskell and link articles to prove haskell is a waste of time
22:42:08 <shachaf> of people from #haskell to ##crypto
22:42:09 <FreeFull> Without crypto there wouldn't be online banking =P
22:42:10 <kmc> is that the pattern
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:20:25 <mike4_> does haskell compare in performance speed to C or C++?
22:43:08 <elliott> just standard "justify haskell to me" stuff, along with linking an obvious troll article about FP sucking
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:22:03 <mike4_> it runs like python and java?
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:22:54 <mike4_> does haskell run as fast as python.
22:43:08 <shachaf> 08:23:23 <mike4_> but slower than c and c++
22:43:10 <shachaf> 08:25:23 <mike4_> well does Haskell apps run slower than C and C++?
22:43:23 <shachaf> haskell/13.05.02:09:06:34 <mike4_> please check that link that gives an extensive critique on FUNCTIONAL PROGRAMMING.
22:43:32 <shachaf> haskell/13.05.02:09:07:53 <mike4_> Why go functional even! Please!
22:44:18 <Gracenotes> your program will terminate the quickest if you print out "Segmentation fault" and exit(139)
22:44:24 <FreeFull> Well, show me a non-functional programming language where the compiler tells you if you're doing something wrong with your red-black tree
22:44:40 <shachaf> hmm, mike4_ has been more prolific than i thought
22:44:43 <Bike> they don't care
22:45:16 <elliott> shachaf: any other nicks other than philosophy?
22:45:17 <oerjan> FreeFull: windows is a supported platform for the platform. it's just that ... argh wtf can't this touchpad control program keep my touchpad settings under control between hibernations...
22:45:24 <elliott> (which I already knew about)
22:45:35 <shachaf> elliott: That's the one I meant.
22:45:43 <shachaf> haskell/13.04.24:11:58:35 <philosophy> hi, i thought programming was about solving peoples problems, instead of creating more.
22:45:46 <nooodl> mmm i really wanna see this anti-FP article
22:45:49 <shachaf> haskell/13.04.24:12:07:06 <philosophy> can hakshell be used in the field to make real world applications?
22:46:04 <shachaf> these mike4_ logs are p. great
22:46:05 <elliott> nooodl: it's from a blog that also contains posts about how einstein was wrong and something about AI based on the bible.
22:46:05 <Bike> it's another dumb bullshit thing
22:46:10 <Bike> every dumb bullshit thing you've ever seen
22:46:13 <elliott> nooodl: so uh... maybe you actually do
22:46:14 <Bike> once fucking again
22:46:25 <Bike> no shut up i am the final arbiter on nooodl's opinions!
22:46:38 <Fiora> Bike: http://koryos.tumblr.com/post/55022432802/ this is amazingly up your alley
22:46:50 <Bike> is it about noooooodl ooooopinioooons
22:46:58 <Bike> "all right guys here it is THE BIG GAY ANIMAL SEX POST" fiora.
22:47:29 <Fiora> fun fact: according to observations over 90% of giraffe sex is between two males
22:48:05 <Fiora> and it's after they duel. so basically they fight and then make out
22:48:17 <Bike> giraffes more like gayraffes.
22:48:23 <Fiora> really though this is totally your thing.
22:48:34 <Bike> fiora thinks bikes are super into gay bestiality
22:48:44 <elliott> when I think of Bike I immediately think "fighting and then making out"
22:49:05 <Bike> what are you implying
22:49:06 <Fiora> I think you're into evolutionary biology, doofus :p
22:49:18 <Bike> also i wouldn't be surprised if prairie dogs could say "steve from accounting is super hot"
22:49:39 <elliott> I think I'm hitting on you again. that seems to happen a lot
22:49:45 <elliott> bicycles and their two-wheeled temptations.............
22:49:50 <shachaf> nooodl: http://rebelscience.blogspot.com/2007/09/functional-programming-is-worse-than.html
22:49:50 <Bike> "I just wanted to stick my chip in the other dip" help
22:50:03 <elliott> do prairie dogs have accounting
22:50:04 <shachaf> What most FP theorists fail to explain is that, in FP, the function itself is the variable. The variable value of functions are kept on the stack and are used as arguments for other functions. One function affects another. Insisting that there are no variables and thus no side effects in FP is wishful thinking at best and crackpottery at worst.
22:50:19 <Bike> shachaf: seriously, can w e not
22:50:36 <kmc> what the fuck has happened to this channel in the 2 min i was away filling out paperowkr
22:50:44 <Bike> gayraffes, hth.
22:51:02 <kmc> functional-programming-is-worse-than-hitler.html
22:51:02 <Gracenotes> Bike: I am enjoying the article thus far
22:51:06 * Fiora tries to hide her giggling at work at the word "gayraffes"
22:51:09 <Bike> yeah it's probably good
22:51:10 <kmc> Bike: want to fight and then make out?
22:51:15 <Bike> i just need to give fiora a hard time
22:51:19 <Bike> kmc: only if it's with elliott sorry
22:51:23 <elliott> i always knew kmc was a bicycle
22:51:46 <Bike> i mean it is THE BIG GAY ANIMAL SEX POST
22:51:49 <Bike> i can't not make some fun
22:52:25 <Fiora> "Long story short, if you have a fetish, somewhere out there there is probably an animal who has it too. Congratulations."
22:52:32 <Gracenotes> I don't know if I would want to be a bike. People would alternatively lock me up and ride me.
22:52:42 <ion> esolangs.org/wiki/THE_BIG_GAY_ANIMAL_SEX_LANGUAGE
22:52:45 <Bike> "Physically, there’s not much birds can do to have homosexual sex- their junk is not designed in such a way" tragic, imo
22:53:12 <shachaf> ion: did you get good intuition for existentials hth
22:53:31 <Bike> this post reminds me of a lot of uncomfortably detailed drawings of bird sex
22:53:32 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure this isn't a parody. See "if your computer uses fine-grain parallelism (this is the future of computing, you can bet on it), FP will not support it because functions are inherently algorithmic."
22:53:43 <ion> shachaf: Some, but i’ll still need to ponder what’s going on a bit more.
22:53:54 <shachaf> ion: so did you notice that foldr :: [a] -> Mu (ListF a), and unfoldr :: Nu (ListF a) -> [a]
22:54:07 <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting
22:54:24 <kmc> don't birds basically just rub their cloacae together
22:54:27 <kmc> for like 0.5 seconds
22:54:28 <Bike> Gracenotes: i assume elliott called it an obvious troll for a reason
22:54:30 <Bike> i meant elephant
22:54:36 <Bike> but you know what, ok.
22:54:44 <elliott> it's crackpottery, not trollery
22:54:45 <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok
22:54:48 <kmc> plz and thx
22:54:53 <ion> shachaf: I hadn’t thought about that, but i can see it.
22:54:54 <Gracenotes> well, I also give crazies the benefit of the doubt
22:54:59 <Bike> i don't know when you're not at work though
22:55:10 <kmc> then i'll send it to my gf
22:55:13 <kmc> ok i'll let you know
22:55:15 <shachaf> foldr :: (Maybe (a,b) -> b) -> [a] -> b
22:55:16 <Bike> i'm actually reading this in front of something else, i am glad he's not paying attention
22:55:33 <elliott> `addquote <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting [...] <Bike> i meant elephant <Bike> but you know what, ok. <kmc> Bike: ... <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok <kmc> plz and thx
22:55:37 <HackEgo> 1068) <Bike> oh my, this is a photo of an elliott fisting [...] <Bike> i meant elephant <Bike> but you know what, ok. <kmc> Bike: ... <kmc> Bike: can you send me that picture when i'm not at work ok <kmc> plz and thx
22:55:56 <Bike> darn, no digression on sexual torture
22:56:36 <Gracenotes> that's not safe for work at moz? man... I dunno if I'd want to work there now...
22:56:53 <elliott> unfortunately elliott fisting is illegal in all 52 states
22:57:24 <Bike> underground elliott fisting ring
22:57:37 <shachaf> the 50 us states, the second world, and the third world?
22:57:38 <ion> Btw, the elliotts^Welephants do that for the nutrition in poop, not for kicks.
22:57:57 <Bike> "If animals didn’t find sex enjoyable, would they masturbate so much? And let me tell you, if an animal can figure out a way to pleasure itself, by god it will do it all the damn time. I work with monkeys. Don’t test me." it's hard to argue here
22:58:10 <kmc> itt bonobos
22:58:25 <elliott> can confirm I do it for the poop nutrition
22:58:31 <Bike> actually they said they weren't going to talk about bonobo sex because everyone already does that, lol
22:58:37 <elliott> shachaf: the other two are classified
22:59:03 <Bike> hm, the evolution of sex part is less detailed than i'd like
22:59:11 <Bike> needs more mushrooms, imo
22:59:47 <FreeFull> Haskell doesn't have variables, only constants
22:59:49 <Bike> "Above: A wasp-imitating orchid. Below: A male wasp gradually losing his self-confidence."
23:00:16 <elliott> f x = x*2 -- on the right hand side x is a variable
23:00:19 <Bike> you know a while ago i talked to somebody said haskell didn't have variables so they didn't change
23:00:26 <Bike> so i said \x -> x + 1
23:00:27 <Bike> and that was that.
23:00:40 <elliott> or IOW if Haskell doesn't have variables neither does mathematics and that's where the term comes from :P
23:01:08 <shachaf> elliott: but the x on the left hand side is the same x
23:01:18 <shachaf> therefore that one is a variable too hth
23:01:24 <FreeFull> Bike: That isn't a variable changing though
23:01:39 <elliott> ok well how about I just link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_(mathematics)
23:01:51 <Bike> different invocations could have different values of x though
23:02:06 <elliott> because I used to say this years ago and now I have to repent for it by arguing against it
23:02:12 <elliott> because I was an obnoxious jerk about it to oerjan :'(
23:02:14 <shachaf> Bike: f :: () -> (); f x = x
23:02:24 <Bike> ok whatever you just said: i don't care.
23:02:42 <Bike> FreeFull: this is seriously the same as math, man. is x a "binding" instead of a "variable" in f(x) = x²?
23:04:24 <Bike> "Sex: It’s not just for sex." thanks
23:05:26 <Bike> oh boy, pederastic elephants (elliotts)
23:06:36 <Bike> no mention of zw chromosomes :'(
23:07:16 <shachaf> ion: next exercize is codensity and density hth
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23:09:18 <Fiora> Bike: the platypus still has the best chromosomes
23:10:14 <shachaf> oh wow the last paragraph of the link nooodl asked for is so great
23:11:37 <Bike> "i’m looking up stuff for my animal homosexuality post and i found a book describing sexual behavior between groups of male gray whales, the official scientific term for which is slip-and-slide orgies" i can dig it
23:11:50 <Fiora> .... slip and slide
23:11:59 <Fiora> biologists are actually amazing people
23:12:16 <elliott> are we sure this isn't just biologist code for talking about their own sex
23:12:35 <elliott> "you know those giraffes, yeah, they're, like, 90% gay. giraffes. yep"
23:12:44 <Bike> masters of disguise
23:13:13 <mnoqy> official scientific term??
23:13:23 <Bike> 'oh yeah, i study, uh, platypi. yes they're real. i'll uh, i'll make you a model, don't worry. they get up to some kinky shit though lemme tell you'
23:13:40 <Bike> mnoqy: yeah it's silly
23:13:57 <elliott> registered with the scientific term office
23:14:16 <Bike> you know they actually have that for chemistry
23:14:19 <Bike> not for gay whales, unfortunately
23:16:31 <Bike> hm, i forget if there's a central organization for binomial names or if they just agree...
23:20:02 <shachaf> wow does every binomial have its own name
23:20:44 <Bike> that pun is bad + you are bad
23:21:14 <Bike> yes because it's bad.
23:21:17 <ion> that pun is bad + you are bad + 0 = that pun is bad + you are bad
23:26:28 <Bike> binomial names of species versus binomials in math
23:27:32 <FreeFull> I just mapped altgr as space because my spacebar is too noisy
23:27:58 <ion> I use altgr all the time.
23:28:41 <shachaf> ion: also you know how (>>=) :: m a -> Codensity m a
23:28:50 <shachaf> and (=>>) :: Density w a -> w a
23:29:02 <shachaf> and fmap :: f a -> Yoneda f a and fmap :: CoYoneda f a -> f a
23:29:18 <ion> I might if i knew what Codensity and Density are. And if i hadn’t already forgotten what Yoneda and CoYoneda are.
23:30:06 <ion> Actually, i do faintly remember that Yoneda was kind of partially applied fmap. Well, i wouldn’t have remembered whether that was Yoneda or CoYoneda.
23:30:37 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b }
23:30:40 <shachaf> (>>=) :: forall m a. Monad m => m a -> forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b
23:30:45 <shachaf> it's p. straightforward imo
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23:32:29 <ion> ENLARGE YOUR WHITESPACE
23:33:44 <shachaf> ion: Yoneda is the same deal
23:34:37 <shachaf> newtype Yoneda f a = Yoneda { runYoneda :: forall b. (a -> b) -> f b }
23:34:37 <shachaf> fmap :: Functor f => f a -> forall b. (a -> b) -> f b
23:35:18 <elliott> shachaf: I think the real equivalent of Free-based Monad for Functor is
23:35:34 <elliott> uh, I was going to write something here but I forgot what.
23:35:43 <elliott> it involved a recursive fmap constructor
23:35:46 <ion> elliott: Whatever you were going to write, i disagree vehemently.
23:35:55 <Bike> i assume that was a drugz joke
23:36:17 <shachaf> Bike: elliott is a bit of a forgetful functor
23:36:36 <shachaf> Bike: ever since the free functor left adjoint to him
23:37:20 <shachaf> (the joke is: a free functor is left adjoint to a forgetful functor. also drugz)
23:39:47 <shachaf> mnoqy: you don't like my drugz joke ??
23:40:22 <mnoqy> it's a bit...."aghsaansdf"
23:40:50 <Bike> Fiora: http://24.media.tumblr.com/8557b8052dfb1690467ddf86bb51a4b4/tumblr_mpnxb1GuLe1rprj1yo1_1280.jpg echidna sperm. don't only pay attention to the "cool" monotremes man
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23:42:07 <shachaf> mnoqy: i bet maclane doesn't have drugz jokez
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23:45:11 <kmc> <mrdata> pyrolysis of bones releases phosphine
23:45:19 <kmc> truly ##electronics is a wonderful channel
23:45:59 <Bike> does that mean fire
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23:57:11 <Bike> this channel moves damned fast kmc
23:57:33 <Bike> talkin' mushrooms
23:57:35 <Bike> "kmconspiracy"
23:58:42 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/xfrUeQ4.png
23:58:45 <Sgeo> A little confusing