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00:16:13 <zzo38> PSP can be connected to a TV screen
00:30:48 <Bike> the paper proving szemeredi's theorem is six pages long. i don't fucking believe this.
00:32:28 <Bike> oh, wait, this is just the fuckin proceeding
00:33:32 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:33:51 <shachaf> Sgeo_: When are you going to `olist?
00:33:58 <shachaf> You can't leave us at a cliffhanger like this!
00:35:39 <Bike> the real paper, well, that has a flowchart explaining it T_T
00:44:24 <Gracenotes> I still haven't figured out what slist and olist are
00:44:24 <Bike> homestuck update, order of the stick update
00:44:24 <shachaf> olist is Order of the Stick updates.
00:44:25 <Gracenotes> get a regularly scheduled comic, hippies
00:44:26 <Bike> http://hananomono.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/photo-2.jpg those were dark days, before tex
00:44:26 <HackEgo> smlist (411): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
00:44:26 <Gracenotes> "Don't like what I am not interested in"? something along those lines
00:45:40 <shachaf> Bike: i can't tell whether they wrote "formulas" or "formulae" or "formulæ" with a pen
00:45:40 <shachaf> i gotta know these things :'(
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00:52:01 <shachaf> mnoqy you just don't understand me
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01:05:27 <Bike> shachaf: it's turing's phd, you could probably figure out what soon enough.
01:35:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <Gracenotes> I still haven't figured out what slist and olist are
01:36:02 <Fiora> slist is a homestuck update ping
01:36:42 <Bike> i would have thought the story would be more shachaf.
01:37:48 <Bike> what? you're, like, the premier mover and shaker in the thriving list industry
01:40:03 <Phantom_Hoover> all i know is one minute shachaf was fighting a bitter war to get his name off the list and the next he was spearheading the implementation of the new, slick, automated multilist system
01:40:11 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
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03:28:11 <zzo38> What is your ideas relating to philosophy of mathematics?
03:28:41 <Bike> "them's some crazy shit, alright"
03:29:20 <zzo38> My own belief is that mathematics is the real reality, not universe and physical object and stuff like that.
03:29:37 <Bike> what does being a real reality entail
03:29:40 <shachaf> My own belief is that my own belief is the real reality.
03:29:55 <shachaf> But I'm starting to think my own belief is biased.
03:29:56 <kmc> my own belief is that zzo38's belief is the real reality
03:31:28 <zzo38> Bike: O, now you need "metareality" in order to describe that, and then you have to describe that by "metaphilosophy" (which is still philosophy), and then... well, you cannot do that! That is what "God" is!
03:31:57 <Bike> well fuck, that clears everything up
03:32:14 <shachaf> If metaphilosophy is still philosophy, don't you get a paradox?
03:33:38 <shachaf> zzo38: hmm, can i have some zzo38 wisdom
03:34:33 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
03:35:19 <zzo38> Philosophy seems to be full of paradoxes anyways; that is why you make up things in order to try to resolve the paradox.
03:35:39 <kmc> metamasturbation
03:35:47 <shachaf> Hmm. That's pretty good zzo38 wisdom.
03:35:56 <Bike> what a weird time to coincidentally be talking about philosophy elsewhere
03:36:41 <zzo38> What elsewhere do you talk about philosophy?
03:37:20 <shachaf> Bike: Maybe you should quote zzo38.
03:37:21 <Bike> a different irc channel.
03:37:55 <Bike> not metaphysics, though.
03:38:45 <shachaf> zzo38: You should get a 7-character nick.
03:39:27 <zzo38> I already have a 7-character nick in my account (although it isn't currently active).
03:40:43 <zzo38> It is "zzo38___" (I also have "zzo38__" and "zzo38_")
03:41:09 <shachaf> Which one of those isn't a character?
03:41:56 <kmc> def __zzo38__(self): pass
03:42:37 <zzo38> shachaf: No, the one that isn't a character is the quotation marks and everything outside of them.
03:42:56 <Bike> > length "zzo38___"
03:43:39 <zzo38> "zzo38__" is 7-characters though!
03:43:56 <Bike> i think zzo wins this round, shachaf.
03:44:30 <shachaf> Bike: How many rounds are there?
03:45:04 <Bike> that was round 4. zzo is ahead by one, as one round was a draw.
03:53:34 <zzo38> Max Tegmark has made up "Mathematical Universe Hypothesis" and "Computable Universe Hypothesis". I think that the CUH is no good.
03:56:35 <zzo38> Yes, it is no good. It doesn't have to computable.
03:57:35 <Bike> What makes you say that?
03:58:05 <zzo38> It doesn't even have to have a single solution, or even any solution at all, or it might have multiple solutions.
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04:55:17 <tswett> It's not obvious to me that the MUH and modal realism are not effectively the same thing.
04:56:13 <tswett> I have a belief similar to modal realism, and I think mine is more factual and less nebulous:
04:56:42 <tswett> "There is no particular reason to believe that any possible world is any more or less real than any other."
04:57:07 <tswett> Well, that's not quite true. I think a simpler world could be considered "more real" than a more complicated one on the grounds that it has a higher probability.
05:06:55 <Bike> is simpler more probable
05:07:07 <tswett> Occam's razor, I guess.
05:07:42 <tswett> Essentially, the idea that even if you don't know anything about A, B, and C, you have to give "A and B and C" a lower probability estimate than "A".
05:11:29 <tswett> Well, if you gave them both the same probability estimate, then, to be consistent, you'd have to give "B and C" a probability estimate of 1, or "A" a probability estimate of 0.
05:11:43 <tswett> Both of which are undesirable, since you don't know what A, B, and C are.
05:12:06 <Bike> But what's this have to do with universes?
05:12:16 <Bike> Presumably picking a universe entails picking B or ¬B anyway.
05:37:37 <zzo38> Maybe you can pick both, somehow.
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05:53:10 <tswett> Bike: yeah, good point.
05:53:37 <tswett> Imagine, though, that if A is true, then B and C are both meaningful, whereas if A is false, then B and C are meaningless, whereas D is meaningful.
05:54:35 <tswett> If we assume that A, B, C, and D are all just as likely to be true as false, then "~A and D" and "~A and ~D" are more likely than "A and B and C" and "A and ~B and ~C" and so on.
05:55:22 <Bike> that's a huge assumption. especially given that by hypothesis they're not independent.
05:56:01 <Bike> besides, what do probabilities even mean here? God rolling dice to see what universes exist?
05:56:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you read _Mathematics Made Difficult_?
05:56:27 <shachaf> zzo38: I think you would be good at several of the exercises.
05:56:41 <zzo38> shachaf: I did not read.
05:57:07 <shachaf> zzo38: You should read it! It's great.
05:57:37 <shachaf> It also has a bibliography, which Taneb would surely appreciate.
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06:38:02 <Wntrvnm> And, since Nisstyre is in here, I'm gonna take that as a, "Yes." :P
06:38:19 <darkf> I wanted to make a new esolang
06:38:33 <darkf> I am too lazy to work it out though
06:42:12 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
06:43:06 <darkf> sounds eccentric. I love it!
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06:53:08 <Sgeo_> Is LoL or DotA 2 easier for newbies?
06:55:20 <oerjan> clearly LoL; how is DotA 2 even a laugh
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07:22:55 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> "art is anal pencil sharpenings" hth <-- tdnh, that was the obvious one.
07:23:40 <Gracenotes> not sure if either is a good use of your time, though
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17:23:43 <Sgeo_> Gracenotes, "good use of time"?
17:24:14 <Sgeo_> They're both games, unless one or the other or both aren't actually fun, I don't see how they can be bad uses of time
17:25:18 * oerjan sics a puritan on Sgeo_
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18:06:39 <Gracenotes> well, you might increase your skill in the game, necessitating your decrease in other things
18:07:05 <Gracenotes> like your sense of empathy, or intolerance for toxicity in communities
18:15:40 * oerjan sics a non-zero sum game theoretician on Gracenotes
18:16:45 <HackEgo> 424) <itidus20> Game theory is not a perfect tool for analyzing video games. <itidus20> Nash failed to create a "video game theory"
18:22:26 <Bike> way to drop the ball, nash.
18:37:21 <Gracenotes> oerjan: it might not be zero-sum, but the sum might not have massive margins either!
18:39:59 <Gracenotes> not as massive as those other sums. omai.
18:43:44 <oerjan> this sum is provably at most A(G_64, G_64), although honestly we suspect it's less than 15 hth
18:44:56 <elliott> hm there should be some sort of competition to pose the question whose answer has the largest known bounds
18:45:00 <elliott> er, difference between bounds
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18:56:17 <Sgeo_> Kind of disappointed that the Planetside 2 launcher links to a Wikia
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18:57:35 <Sgeo_> Gracenotes, are both communities really that bad?
18:57:37 <Phantom_Hoover> <quintopia> can i be off the list Phantom_Hoover? i only want pings for pbf.
18:58:14 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
18:58:30 <Phantom_Hoover> that's your own fault for running `list in the first place
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19:26:33 <Sgeo_> "my point is you need to get it out of your head that you can make code (especially web apps) pefectly secure against code injection attacks"
19:28:15 <kmc> while that's kind of dumb, I do think focusing on making things "perfectly secure" is rarely worthwhile
19:31:19 <kmc> type systems make your code "perfectly secure" against memory corruption.... except for bugs in the typechecker, codegen, runtime system, explicitly unsafe code, unsafe libraries, kernel, processor, &c.
19:31:33 <kmc> having all that stuff in your trusted base is still a huge improvement against having all that stuff *plus* your application in the trusted base
19:31:46 <kmc> especially because core system stuff gets reused a lot
19:32:16 <kmc> Servo segfaults a lot, at present
19:37:38 <kmc> mostly the latter
19:38:10 <kmc> we're interfacing to a bunch of C libraries, e.g. SpiderMonkey for JS
19:38:12 <elliott> imo who builds a language for a single application and makes it insufficient to express that application without going beyond the language
19:39:17 <kmc> well you could write a JS JIT in Rust, it would just be a huge project
19:39:37 <Gregor> Bless me, father, for I have sinned.
19:39:38 <kmc> and as we discussed earlier, the memory safety benefits are perhaps not that great
19:39:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Gregor.
19:40:07 <Gregor> elliott: I've installed the Kindle app on a Nook.
19:40:09 <zzo38> There are ways to make programs secure if you don't overcomplicate it; I have done so (I think; if you find any bugs please notify me).
19:40:18 <Gregor> I'm fairly certain that there's a special place in hell for people who do that.
19:43:03 <zzo38> Gregor: I didn't know it is compatible. But, I suppose if it is, then of course it is possible to do such thing.
19:43:17 <Gregor> It is, it works great.
19:46:40 <Sgeo_> I don't think the torrent I'm downloading has peers, oh it does
19:47:10 <Sgeo_> There's... one peer
19:47:53 <Gracenotes> Sgeo_: iz okay. LoL is well-known for being not great, which is partly a consequence of some of the properties of the game itself
19:47:55 <Sgeo_> Unpopular games shouldn't be distributed through BitTorrent
19:48:12 <Sgeo_> Gracenotes, LoL or LoL's community is well-known for being not great?
19:48:14 <Gracenotes> F2P being the main one, long-running sessions being another
19:48:32 <Sgeo_> Are DotA 2 sessions longer or shorter than LoL sessions?
19:49:04 <Gracenotes> It's a reasonably deep game by itself, but my understanding is that a match's outcome may have been decided, essentially, even 20-30 minutes before the win condition is reached.
19:49:21 <Gracenotes> Also because it's a team game, there's no prudent resignation like in Go or Starcraft.
19:50:01 <Gracenotes> I can't say much about DotA 2, but also my understanding is that it has some more desirable properties in the metagame.
19:51:26 <Gracenotes> It is still *a* community, and one with good corners and bad corners.
19:51:58 <Gracenotes> though, yeah, it's probably not a good thing when pro players think nothing of DDOSing opponents.
19:52:34 <Gracenotes> (and, as this was a few years ago, get subsequently as hellbanned as you can get, hopefully deterring that from happening nowadays... hopefully)
19:52:59 <Gracenotes> no shortage of drama, which is a good (?) thing
19:53:52 <Sgeo_> Why do so many games seem so horrible with SLI?
19:56:00 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: remove me from your mailing list immediately. i know my rights!
19:56:24 <Bike> it's not sgeo's. it's the people's list
20:04:22 <Sgeo_> http://forum.notebookreview.com/ideapad-essential/718852-y500-sli-valve-source-game-engine-stuttering-fix.html
20:05:23 <Sgeo_> Using two or more nVidia graphics cards together to... I don't know how it works
20:05:34 <Sgeo_> Crossfire is the ATI equiv
20:07:00 <kmc> it used to stand for "Scan-Line Interleave" meaning one card does even-numbered lines and one does odd-numbered lines :)
20:07:03 <kmc> that's not how it works anymore
20:14:05 <Sgeo_> "Talking to someone I know who works in Nvidia, the problem with SLI on Source games lies not on the Nvidia driver but the Source engine. Valve has to fix it."
20:14:32 <Sgeo_> I have non-Source games with the same issue, doubt they're just going to get fixed when Valve fixes Source
20:16:06 <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_
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20:23:31 <mnoqy> `addquote <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want to be
20:23:35 <HackEgo> 1072) <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want to be
20:41:49 <zzo38> What are the most unusual donaim specific programming languages?
20:44:43 <zzo38> quintopia: I don't really know.
20:45:05 <quintopia> zzo38: are you familiar with the game "cyvasse"
20:45:33 <zzo38> I don't know if some of the things at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages might count.
20:46:41 * oerjan is reminded of bancstar
20:48:00 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "cyvasse" is a board game, but not anything else.
20:52:19 <zzo38> I know of various domain specific programming languages, but I don't know what would be the most unusual ones.
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21:02:27 <zzo38> Some things about DSL are found at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DomainSpecificLanguage and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?LittleLanguage
21:06:56 <Gracenotes> hm, I realized what Daft Punk's Get Lucky reminds me of. The musical Grease. At least until the voice modulating bits.
21:07:55 <zzo38> Such things are mentioned such as dc, AWK, SQL, TeX. I happen to think these are all pretty good for what they are doing.
21:07:58 <quintopia> ...i don't see how it could remind you of any part of grease
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21:10:04 <Gracenotes> maybe less brass, but similar guitar riffs, chord sequences, lyrical content.
21:10:15 <zzo38> You may then even consider PostScript, vi, regular expressions, C preprocessor, sendmail, nroff, and possibly even MML and FurryScript. Maybe EXPLOR counts too, and maybe a few other things in esolang wiki (please specify, if you know?).
21:10:40 <Gracenotes> also the hook "We've come too far", very much like the title song
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21:12:06 <Gracenotes> I'm not sure exactly of the music geneology to invoke, but both are vaguely disco-ish.
21:12:18 <zzo38> Perhaps make a list of DSL and of how unusual they are, as well as other thing such as the computation class, etc
21:27:37 <ion> The first paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Carton_de_Wiart
21:39:55 <Sgeo_> "SLI will shut off when you use windowed mode, even borderless windowed mode will shutoff SLI."
21:43:43 <Sgeo_> "No, it works in windowed mode. You may or may not lose performance depending on the game.
21:47:14 <zzo38> What programming languages have list variables but no scalar variables?
21:47:44 <Taneb> LISP or Fortran, maybe?
21:48:53 <Taneb> Mission accomplished
21:49:07 <Bike> oh no i've been missioned
21:51:50 <Sgeo_> Python has a partial example: It has strings, which act like lists of characters, but no characters: A character is just a string with 1 character.
21:53:26 <Sgeo_> This Portal 2 user-made map has non-euclidean geometry (besides Portals I mean)
21:53:50 <Sgeo_> Also it's not really used to confuse the player, just ... to aid in something
21:53:56 <Bike> C is a partial example: it has integers, which act like sequences of bits, but no bits: a bit is just an integer with one bit
21:54:50 <Sgeo_> You're in a room, with beach outside, walk outside of it and the beach was just painted on posters outside the room. But inside, the beach looks and has parallex like real 3d
21:55:10 <Fiora> C has bitfields, doesn't it?
21:55:45 <Bike> i'm being silly
22:09:03 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I mean variables, not types of values, though.
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22:10:21 <pikhq_> I don't know that C mandates any particular representation of bitfields though.
22:10:56 <pikhq_> As I understand it specifying a certain number of bits only dictates the set of valid values the variable in the struct may take on.
22:10:58 <zzo38> Can the latest versions of GHC support making classes of classes of classes, including class families?
22:11:28 <pikhq_> Of course, any decent compiler would just do the obvious thing.
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23:48:40 <zzo38> If I have overlapping words in a "Fwords table" such as "hello" and "lost" and then I want to pack "whellolosticks" for example, let's say I have a cost for each entry in the table too, what is an algorithm to replace sequences of characters with the references so that it lower the encoded space? (The cost of a reference is fixed and is always 2.)