00:03:19 <Bike> they say the smallest one known right now is 100 µm²
00:07:49 <Fiora> Bike: http://bwiklund.github.io/ant-simulator/
00:10:45 <shachaf> hey, remember http://lpaste.net/52660 ??
00:11:29 <Bike> these ants are kind of dumb
00:11:31 <Bike> pretty trails though
00:27:07 <Fiora> Bike: http://www.astro.sunysb.edu/astro/seminars/archive/JS09/jcl27Feb09-1.pdf also for you~
00:27:17 <Fiora> (sorry, I don't have a non-pdf link)
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00:29:35 <Bike> now this is my kind of paper
00:31:27 <Bike> http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2010-190
00:31:36 <Bike> i like how they interview the guy to say how exciting life on Titan would be
00:31:52 <Bike> as if anyone wouldn't be excited. well, you SHOULD be excited, says scientist
00:33:03 <Fiora> okay so bike likes alternative biochemistries
00:33:52 <Bike> yeah when i was like 16 i read a nonfiction book on alternative biochemistries "the rest is history"
00:34:12 <shachaf> hmm a fiction book on alternative biochemistries sounds better imo
00:34:22 <Bike> well i've read those too
00:34:33 <Bike> like schild's ladder, though i guess that's more "alternative chemistries"
00:34:44 <Fiora> what would you call Flux?
00:34:49 <Fiora> alternative... bionuclearchemistries?
00:35:06 <kmc> ooh ants are pretty
00:35:09 <Bike> well i mean, if you take generalized chemistry to mean something with reactants and all
00:35:27 <Bike> you can call schild's quarkshit as "alternative chemistry", and the same with dragon's egg or whatever?
00:36:04 <Bike> i also read one of the sector general books which is pretty fun
00:36:22 <Bike> "doctor, how can we cure lupus in a sapient methane cloud"
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00:53:45 <Bike> it's a sci-fi book series about a giant hospital that gets weird aliens, is all.
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01:15:25 <zzo38> I have a "fwords" table, with some overlapping entries (such as "hello" and "lost"). What is the algorithm to efficiently encode a string by converting things into references to fwords table?
01:16:34 <Bike> so like, you have "hel2" "2st" "2: lo" in the table...?
01:19:25 <zzo38> Bike: Yes, such things might be in the table, and then maybe you want to encode "hel2: lost" for example...
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01:37:23 <kmc> http://coyot.es/crossing/2013/07/09/20-amazing-true-facts-about-introverts-and-extroverts/
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01:39:27 <Bike> it's called a ganglion, extroverts!!
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01:40:23 <Fiora> "Introvert hair is made of keratin, the same proteinaceous material that makes up your horn if you’re a rhino."
01:40:31 <Fiora> see, I'm an introvert! take that
01:42:40 * Fiora waves her display of keratinous fibers around
01:44:20 <Bike> q: how do introverted rhinos deal
01:47:33 <Fiora> bike this is a question that just came up between elliott and I
01:47:36 <Fiora> where did hair variation come from
01:47:40 <Fiora> like why do humans have such vastly different hairs
01:47:51 <Fiora> like, fingernails are pretty much almost the same.
01:47:54 <elliott> thank god we have a biologist.
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01:48:06 <Fiora> like what is it with hair specifically o_O
01:48:10 <elliott> brace yourself for my speech recognition questions fizzie
01:48:13 <Bike> well i don't know if you've noticed but some other external features vary a lot
01:48:15 <Bike> for example, skin
01:48:36 <Fiora> I guess so? but like everyone has pretty similar fingernails and those are the other keratin things
01:50:18 <Bike> ok more serious answer
01:50:25 <pikhq_> Most of the difference between different sorts of hairs is just the cross-section.
01:50:56 <Fiora> as in, like, the thickness?
01:51:11 <Fiora> hairs aren't round?
01:51:17 <pikhq_> Straight hair is round.
01:51:41 <Bike> hm, now i realize i don't know how hair is colored
01:51:54 <Bike> i'm guessing it's not through actually coloring keratin...
01:52:15 <Fiora> it's melanin isn't it...? or...
01:52:29 <Bike> well yeah but what's it coloring
01:52:58 <Bike> "All natural hair colors are the result of two types of hair pigment. Both of these pigments are melanin types, produced inside the hair follicle and packed into granules found in the fibers."
01:53:16 <Fiora> so black hair is just a whole lot of eumelanin
01:53:35 <Bike> anyway my point was going to be that ccoloring fingernails would be harder to implement.
01:54:13 <Bike> i mean from my understanding fingernails are just a plate of keratin
01:54:17 <Bike> hairs are more complicated
01:57:26 <Fiora> wow, reading the wikipedia article
01:57:36 <Fiora> it sounds like our best scientific ideas are really wildly speculative @_@
01:57:53 <Fiora> like, for the evolution of curly hair (mammalian hair is normally straight)
01:57:58 <Bike> for what, the prettiest nail colori- oh
01:58:07 <Fiora> and the evolution of straight hair again (after the diaspora of homo sapiens from africa)
01:58:07 <Bike> shit yeah, i'm a mutant! unexplainable by modern science!
01:58:17 <elliott> imo it would be pretty cool if people had different coloured nails
01:58:30 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hair#Texture <-- here's your evolutionary biology!!!
01:58:35 <Bike> they're transparent, you'd have to have a different color of skin there
01:58:37 <Bike> is what i was getting at
01:59:17 <Bike> "While some might argue that, by this logic, humans should also express hairy shoulders given that these body parts would putatively be exposed to similar conditions," evolutionary biology is the best
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01:59:27 <elliott> look Bike, if biology can't make them not transparent then that's biology's problem
01:59:30 <HackEgo> smlist (412): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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02:00:00 <Fiora> huh, so they've mostly confirmed that east asian coarse/straight hair evolved within the past 65000 years
02:00:02 <Bike> so what we need to do is set up a eugenic breeding program to develop nail colorings, is what you're saying.
02:00:19 <Bike> frankly african genetics seem kind of scary to me
02:00:25 <Bike> i mean you have khoisians and pygmies
02:00:28 <Bike> that's like, super diverse!
02:00:41 <Bike> make the rest of us look like conformist punks.
02:01:26 <Fiora> wow, "afro-textured hair" is actually the scientific term
02:01:58 <Bike> "IIn the 19th century, a distinguishing feature of Khoisan women was considered to be their tendency for steatopygia.[20] This belief contributed greatly to the European fascination with the so-called Hottentot Venus." 19th century human biology is hilarious
02:02:06 <Bike> "what's the distinguishing trait of these people?" "hot asses"
02:04:15 <Fiora> "these people have smaller heads, so they must be dumber than us, who are intelligent enough to decide that head size is a good indicator of intelligence"
02:04:48 <pikhq_> Biggest head is best head.
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02:05:22 <Fiora> ironically I guess that means the scientists doing that
02:05:32 <Bike> recent human evolution is weird shit though, i mean look at lactase
02:05:39 <Bike> what the fuck is that.
02:07:15 <Fiora> thank you genetics for the wonders of lactase
02:07:27 <Bike> i'm a big fan of lactase
02:08:11 <Bike> what i'm getting out of this wikipedia section on hair evolution is that we don't know shit and are throwing out tons of guesses.
02:08:37 <Bike> «However, inclinations towards deeming hair texture "adaptively trivial" may root in certain cultural value judgments more than objective logic. In this sense the possibility that hair texture may have played an adaptively significant role cannot be completely eliminated from consideration.» like
02:09:43 <Fiora> I like how darwin was like "maybe there wasn't anything to it at all"
02:11:09 <elliott> I assumed it would just be some nonsense about different kinds of hair evolving to stand out and ~attract mates~ or whatever
02:11:12 <elliott> good thing nobody has any idea.
02:12:10 <Fiora> the fiber optic UV thing is too amusing
02:12:56 <elliott> I have no idea what you're referring to but I just had a vision of fibre optic hair
02:14:55 <pikhq_> Sounds like great networking technology.
02:15:08 <Fiora> the thing where they theorized straight hair conducted UV better for vitamin D (?!?)
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02:20:04 <Sgeo> Why are there so many people who have my name?
02:20:13 <Sgeo> A Hardcore Pawn guy, a gay DJ, Christ...
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02:28:12 <Bike> elliott: there's that too (re: nonsense), i'm just not quoting it.
02:32:27 <Bike> Fiora: i don't think darwin talked about hair, they just meant that generally as genetic drift and so on. Pro Biologist Tip: if darwin's being mentioned outside of a historical context you can pretty much ignore the surrounding sentences
02:33:28 <Bike> you may or may not recall that darwin's book on human evolution was so outdated and Victorian that I gave up on it
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02:58:28 <Bike> http://hmarco.org/bugs/CVE-2013-4788.html whooops
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03:17:41 <kmc> wow whoops
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03:21:25 <kmc> lactase is cool, lactase persistence is cooler :)
03:21:56 <kmc> in western society we think of "lactose intolerant" as a kind of minor disorder but really it's the rest of us who have the recent unusual mutation
03:23:08 <Bike> yeah, i've tried to switch my vocab around.
03:23:37 <kmc> also you can take pills with lactase in them so that's cool
03:23:51 <kmc> the modern world: 10,000 problems and a pill for each one
03:24:56 <Fiora> I wonder how complicated the genetics of lactase persistence are
03:25:02 <Fiora> like it seems to vary exactly how intolerant people are
03:25:50 <kmc> luckily there exists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_regulation_of_lactase_expression_in_mammals
03:26:06 <Bike> thank goodness
03:26:27 <Fiora> 1 million base pairs? @_@
03:27:11 <Bike> maybe unpersistent people have it but it isn't activated
03:27:25 <kmc> yeah lactase is shareware
03:27:46 <kmc> and we europeans have evolved a crack
03:27:51 <Bike> i mean their kids can still drink it, yeah.
03:28:00 <Fiora> I know my mom was somewhat intolerant but like not completely so
03:28:10 <Fiora> like she ate some cheese and stuff but never drank milk or anything
03:28:51 <kmc> my friend just eats cheese anyway and then takes it out on us by farting continuously
03:29:07 <Bike> admirable plan
03:29:35 <Fiora> wait, explain? @_@
03:29:39 <Bike> my book on burma didn't really cover animal domestication, i guess that would help
03:29:50 <kmc> dunno, dairy makes him fart
03:29:57 <kmc> I thought this was a common effect of lack of lactase
03:30:03 <kmc> slash low levels of it whatever
03:30:51 <Fiora> geez in retrospect this must have been why my mom thought it was a little odd that I never stopped drinking milk since for her that would have been normal
03:31:00 <Fiora> but my dad always ate cereal with milk in the mornings
03:31:41 <Bike> "Chinese and Japanese populations typically lose between 20 and 30 percent of their ability to digest lactose within three to four years of weaning. Some studies have found that most Japanese can consume 200 ml (8 fl oz) of milk without severe symptoms (Swagerty et al., 2002)." trying to imagine this study
03:32:09 <Bike> "here's a huge pile of cheese. how much of this can you eat without vomiting"
03:32:47 <kmc> presumably presented in the form of a game show
03:34:36 <Bike> apparently lactase persistence is basically absent in native americans. i did not know this.
03:35:47 <Bike> also "Native Americans however, have a significantly higher rate of alcoholism than average; it is unclear why this is the case.[76] Other risk factors such as cultural environmental effects e.g. trauma have been proposed to explain the higher rates of alcoholism among Native Americans compared to alcoholism levels in caucasians.[77][78]" great
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03:46:30 <Gracenotes> the solution: make bacteria that don't eat lactose
03:53:47 <Gracenotes> "Around 30 million years ago, the earth’s warm, moist climate became seasonally arid. This shift favored plants that could grow quickly and produce seeds to survive the dry period, and caused a great expansion of grasslands, which in the dry seasons became a sea of desiccated, fibrous stalks and leaves.
03:53:52 <Gracenotes> So began the gradual decline of the horses and the expansion of the deer family, the ruminants, which evolved the ability to survive on dry grass.
03:53:55 <Gracenotes> [...] Ruminants produce milk copiously on feed that is otherwise useless to humans and that can be stockpiled as straw or silage."
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03:58:02 <Bike> fun fax that are the basis of modern civilization?
03:58:55 <Gracenotes> well, more likely fun fax about agriculture than about dairying
04:00:25 <Fiora> actually that should be
04:07:08 <kmc> i'm reading about plans to build a new airport for London in the Thames Estuary and one of the obstacles is that the estuary contains a sunken WW2 cargo ship with 1,400 tons of unexploded ordnance o_O
04:07:13 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Richard_Montgomery
04:07:31 <Sgeo> I did not know until today that 8" floppies existed
04:07:41 <Bike> WWII was a hell of a thing, eh
04:07:50 <Bike> wow, you can see the masts.
04:07:52 <kmc> ships like this going every which way all the time
04:07:57 <kmc> some of them blew up in ports
04:08:28 <Fiora> Sgeo: that was back when they were actually *floppy*, right?
04:08:43 <Sgeo> I think the 5.25" were floppy
04:08:48 <Bike> Christ, it has blockbuster bombs
04:08:59 <Sgeo> I should sleep
04:09:11 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_artificial_non-nuclear_explosions
04:09:56 <Bike> reading about halifax is rather harrowing.
04:10:13 <Bike> huh, i didn't know the parthenon was destroyed in a modern war
04:11:39 <Bike> freaking turks.
04:11:53 <Sgeo> They're rebuilding the Parthenon apparently
04:14:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Chicago_disaster "An Army Air Forces pilot flying in the area reported that the fireball was 3 mi (4.8 km) in diameter"
04:14:43 <Gracenotes> also, the colosseum was destroyed in the great Spartan-Athenian war
04:15:37 <Bike> " Most of the dead and injured were enlisted African-American sailors." FDR doesn't care about black people
04:16:00 <kmc> indeed "The Navy asked Congress to give each victim's family $5,000. Representative John E. Rankin (D-Mississippi) insisted the amount be reduced to $2,000 when he learned most of the dead were black men."
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04:16:13 <kmc> super classy
04:16:29 <Bike> democrats more like racistocrats.
04:21:41 <Gracenotes> heh. first comment on an article about hyperloop: "Not in my backyard!"
04:22:51 <Sgeo> I'm a minute run away from a train station
04:22:53 <Sgeo> It's convenient.
04:23:02 <Sgeo> ....did I just effectively tell esoteric where I live?
04:23:23 <Bike> yes but we don't care
04:24:52 <Gracenotes> hm, really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#BANANA
04:25:52 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAVE_People
04:27:29 <Gracenotes> wow, I hadn't tried it before, but the new mediawiki wysiwyg editor is very slick
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04:31:57 <shachaf> kmc: It's actually called the Hundred of Hoom Railway.
04:32:06 <shachaf> But no one gets the name right.
04:36:53 <shachaf> kmc: help how do i prepare for job interview
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05:13:59 <zzo38> Someone suggested removing sizeof from C would make it to be Turing-complete. Would making it so that a byte has an infinite number of bits make it Turing-complete?
05:14:25 <elliott> how do you define CHAR_BIT?
05:15:33 <zzo38> I suppose as (unsigned int)(-1) or something like that. What version of C is CHAR_BIT defined in?
05:16:22 <elliott> C89 and C99 and C11, afaik
05:16:38 <zzo38> O, so that's all of them, I suppose.
05:17:01 <zzo38> Still, what I suggested might work? Does it work?
05:19:10 <elliott> what would (unsigned int)(-1) be?
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05:19:26 <zzo38> Sorry my computer was crashed
05:19:49 <elliott> what would (unsigned int)(-1) be?
05:21:22 <zzo38> It would be all (infinte number of) bits set, I suppose.
05:21:45 <elliott> I suspect unsigned int is required to be a rather more conventional type of integer
05:22:10 <Bike> C should be extended with p-adics, obv
05:23:37 <zzo38> This isn't even all of p-adics, though, but it is a special case of one
05:24:02 <Bike> pretty easy to do bitwise arithmetic on 'em, perfect for C
05:28:02 <zzo38> Yes. That is what I am saying, how to make a C to be Turing-complete, if this would work. I don't really know that (unsigned int)(-1) would be the correct value for CHAR_BIT, though, in such case... it should be the logarithm but I don't know that there is even a such things
05:28:05 <Bike> I guess representing surds would be annoying.
05:28:36 <Bike> I think if you're talking about a turing complete C you can forget stuff like CHAR_BIT.
05:30:55 <zzo38> But I want to adding/removing stuff as few as possible; can it be done without forgetting stuff like CHAR_BIT?
05:31:22 <Bike> how about work something out and then add CHAR_BIT and shit like that back in.
05:32:05 <elliott> Bike: the whole point of talking about a turing complete C is to be pedantic.
05:32:11 <elliott> why would you ignore CHAR_BIT?
05:32:22 <Bike> imo, i hate you.
05:32:39 <Bike> have you all seen the relevant HAKMEM entry?
05:32:55 <zzo38> Is there a relevant HAKMEM entry? What number is it?
05:37:28 <zzo38> Yes, I have seen that, although I figured out the conclusion about algebra independently too
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05:53:49 <kmc> sometimes browser history autocomplete reminds me of the best things, like http://drilbert.tumblr.com/
05:54:53 <Bike> http://25.media.tumblr.com/653a5a3738a955c2261e618720d3d2f5/tumblr_mov5xyyjR81sou3fto1_250.png ugh, i've been scooped.
05:59:25 <Bike> compare and contrast: http://25.media.tumblr.com/7ba349e5889b12f74f3298b49ec6be1a/tumblr_mlf8nwyrKD1sou3fto1_r1_500.png http://25.media.tumblr.com/5dc653403c87e50c45d88228d685d143/tumblr_mfnwniHK091rlynuno1_500.jpg
06:01:15 * kmc practices blowing smoke (well, vapor) rings
06:01:45 <shachaf> kmc: I saw someone doing that today.
06:01:48 <Bike> "@drymangobird thbe NSA is really good. but it could be bad? please dont write any opinions about it until ive solved this" satire on the media
06:02:29 <shachaf> Bike: have you noticed that tumblr picture urls are really long and ugly hth
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06:03:15 <Bike> tumblr is also really long and ugly.
06:03:25 <kmc> shachaf: do you know what they were smoke (or, vape) ing?
06:03:39 <shachaf> No, I just saw them through the car window.
06:03:47 <shachaf> And then a second person went into the car and they drove off.
06:03:58 <kmc> probably a drug deal
06:04:34 <shachaf> what are you smoke (or, vape) ing
06:15:54 <kmc> watermelon-flavoured not-tobacco
06:15:57 <kmc> something containing nicotine
06:18:06 <kmc> <zzo38> O, so that's all of them, I suppose. <--- you of all people I would expect to program in K&R C
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06:26:05 <shachaf> kmc: are you addicted to nicotine now :'(
06:28:16 <kmc> shachaf: don't think so
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10:46:34 <Jafet1> Just use C++, then you get a turing-complete language at compile time.
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11:43:12 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> yeah when i say "weird" i don't mean like, "uncommon", so much as "wow this does not seem like something i personally would think is okay" <-- i think the point of this clause is that it is very hard for the writer of the contract to ensure that no provision of it is illegal and unenforceable in _any_ jurisdiction, and it would be unreasonable for the whole contract to become void because of that.
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12:19:31 <oerjan> "Otherwise identical twins who are Introvert and Extrovert must be kept separate and never allowed to come into physical contact." <-- oh so that's what's up with elliott and Taneb
12:26:20 <oerjan> i feel that this thing that came up when i googled something from that article may also be relevant to this channel http://www.gadflyonline.com/10-29-01/comm-introverts.html
12:27:08 <oerjan> (it has finns _and_ introverts. wait, i'm being redundant.)
12:44:57 <Taneb> Finnish Jews in the USA
12:45:42 <Taneb> I sometimes think I don't fit into the boxes with regards to the vertiness
12:45:57 <Taneb> But then I realise I'm really extroverted, I just don't get invited to stuff
12:56:48 <Taneb> And also I nap when I am bored
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13:00:35 <boily> good humid morning!
13:01:44 <Taneb> Humidity in Hexham was over 50% this morning
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13:16:51 <boily> Taneb: it's only up to 74% this morning. it's going to get worse until the thunderstorms.
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13:22:33 <boily> you can spot who bicycle in the morning very easily.
13:32:12 * boily particles to Fiora
13:37:12 * itsy quarks to boily
13:37:33 * Fiora interacts weakly with boily
13:39:21 <itsy> Noooo... everything changed now you observed :-(
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13:51:06 <boily> there was that hypertrain video featured on boingboing some time ago (http://vimeo.com/68546202). the tune got stuck in my head, and yesteray I learned that you can jamendo the album: http://www.jamendo.com/en/list/a98191/solar-storm
13:51:24 <HackEgo> olist (901): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
13:57:20 <Gracenotes> so, it appears as though I am buying shaving supplies by just choosing the first item listed in an Amazon search for it
13:57:53 <Fiora> wynaut is a pokemon
13:58:33 <HackEgo> olist (555): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
13:58:38 <Gracenotes> I was going to write wynaut, but I figured that would be obvious
13:59:13 <olsner> hmm, don't they usually have shaving supplies in super markets?
13:59:39 <Taneb> olsner, Gracenotes is stockpiling
13:59:48 <Gracenotes> no, I am trying to get fancy shaving supplies
13:59:56 <Taneb> The supermarkets are already empty of shaving equipment around there
14:00:01 <Gracenotes> like a badger brush and stuff. poor badgers.
14:00:11 <boily> shachaf: I am intrigued by the number.
14:00:22 <Fiora> Gracenotes used Stockpile!
14:00:28 <Fiora> Gracenotes stockpiled 1.
14:00:32 <shachaf> boily: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0901.html
14:00:38 <olsner> shachaf: dunno, haven't asked him
14:00:56 <boily> shachaf: oh, right. I had forgot about the ootsness of the olist.
14:01:25 <Gracenotes> there's kind of a triple of paraphernelia: brush, mug, and soap
14:02:22 <Taneb> This reminds me, I kinda need a shave right now
14:03:23 <shachaf> Gracenotes: You should get non-badger things.
14:08:09 <boily> I'm still on the electric side of the Shave. /r/wicked_edge is very tempting, and I bought a kit for my dad's birthday last week.
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14:12:36 <Taneb> I'd say leather is a bit weirder than wool
14:16:19 <oerjan> boily: i went non-electric after my razor short circuited the other week
14:18:07 <oerjan> mainly because the local grocery shop, which i think is too small to be considered a supermarket, had non-electric ones.
14:26:37 <elliott> Vatican offers 'time off purgatory' to followers of Pope Francis tweets
14:26:38 <elliott> Papal court handling pardons for sins says contrite Catholics may win 'indulgences' by following World Youth Day on Twitter
14:27:25 <coppro> 2008 was pretty stupid
14:27:53 <Fiora> I guess they're partying like it's 1517?
14:28:33 <boily> someone should rig an arduino to measure ambient stupidity, and put realtime graphs on the intarwebs.
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14:54:26 <Gracenotes> didn't that catholic church stop threatening their adherents with purgatory not too long ago? as matter of doctrine, or something?
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14:59:20 <Lumpio-> >implying religion isn't already at max stupidity to begin with
15:00:38 <elliott> thanks for your contribution.
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15:01:58 <Gracenotes> the issue is that early christians didn't think that far enough ahead; they invented hell to convert people, but had no doctrinal basis for subjugating those who were already converted
15:03:07 <Gracenotes> It's just like when an underground indie band signs with a major label... you lose that connection to your fans and end up threatening to torture them and send their dead relatives to hell
15:03:54 <Taneb> Scott Pilgrim was a great movie
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16:10:39 <Bike> looks like catholicism still has purgatory.
16:11:04 <Bike> 2005: "Purgatory is the state of those who die in God’s friendship, assured of their eternal salvation, but who still have need of purification to enter into the happiness of heaven."
16:13:56 <zzo38> Yes, it always has had, for a long time, I think.
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16:29:44 <kmc> i think they got rid of limbo but not purgatory
16:55:06 <boily> limbo is not the same as purgatory?
16:56:43 <Bike> Limbo is part of hell
17:36:28 <zzo38> I do not believe any of that is sensible or necessary or even helpful.
17:37:58 <zzo38> The biggest greed is wanting an afterlife.
17:38:24 <zzo38> (Actually, the biggest greed is wanting an afterlife and taking everything with you, but I am ignoring this for the sake of this purpose.)
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17:52:29 <kmc> Limbo is like Hell Lite where unbaptized people who didn't really do anything wrong go
17:52:57 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of Pascal's Wager?
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17:54:36 <tswett> The biggest greed is wanting literally everything.
17:55:23 <kmc> also http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/02/rokos-basilisk-wants-you.html
17:56:22 <Taneb> Minkowski space: Virgin Galactic makes a ski resort for dwarf cattle
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18:13:10 <Bike> kmc: oh, that's the backwards causality thing? fucking hilarious drama there, imo
18:13:37 <boily> oh, stross has a blog? :D
18:14:28 <kmc> Taneb: what
18:14:30 <Bike> yeah, it's pretty good
18:15:04 <Bike> i'm kind of glad he can write about transhuman stuff and not be a "rationalist" dumbass
18:15:47 <Bike> i wonder why he says neural tube specifically. what about the poor jellyfish
18:16:02 <boily> I have his Redshirts epub somewhere, now I need to find my e-reader and charge it.
18:16:29 <boily> jellyfishes are food. sponges are food. I think rocks are food, but I'm not sure.
18:16:49 <Bike> well fish are food and they're chordates too.
18:18:08 <Bike> not that i've heard
18:18:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ok so have you read any of his '20 minutes into the future'-type books
18:19:06 <Bike> does the one with socialist crustaceans count i read that one
18:19:19 <Bike> accelerando that's the title.
18:19:37 <Phantom_Hoover> basically i tried a couple and i stopped after like a chapter because he tends to set them in edinburgh and he insists on writing scottish accents phonetically for some reason
18:20:03 <Bike> oh, yeah, you've mentioned that.
18:26:28 <kmc> i wonder what Bike has against "rationalists" (there are many valid answers)
18:27:28 <boily> kmc: oh, btw, how's P. E. Trudeau's existence going?
18:27:44 <Bike> mostly being so far up their own rectums they make AI into a moralist wet dream and don't even work in the damn field. (also bayesianism ew)
18:27:49 <coppro> boily: it exists, I've been there
18:28:10 <Bike> and i mean have you read yudkosky.
18:29:03 <boily> coppro: the problem is, you're Ontarian. we need somebody uncanadian to objectively judge his existence.
18:31:20 <coppro> boily: no really, I've been there
18:31:20 <coppro> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montr%C3%A9al%E2%80%93Pierre_Elliott_Trudeau_International_Airport
18:31:38 <boily> oh, you're talking about the airport.
18:32:22 <boily> of course it exists. a very nice airport, I must say. and you have Montréal surrounding it!
18:32:37 <boily> it's just a shame that they changed its name from Dorval to PET.
18:33:22 <coppro> I've also seen progeny of Trudea
18:33:57 <coppro> been within three feet of his spawn
18:34:00 <olsner> are you sure they were progeny?
18:34:28 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXARrMadTKk conveniently shared
18:34:33 <coppro> his spawn was in a hurry
18:34:39 <coppro> like he was some celebrity or something
18:38:59 <kmc> what's wrong with bayesians
18:40:28 <Bike> well, nothing, really, if you're not crazy like yudkowsky, but i'm more sympathetic to frequentism.
18:41:38 <Bike> http://vserver1.cscs.lsa.umich.edu/~crshalizi/weblog/606.html
18:46:54 <kmc> "The theme here is to construct some simple yet pointed examples where Bayesian inference goes wrong"
18:47:01 <kmc> presumably you can do the same for frequentist statistics?
18:47:24 <kmc> it's kind of absurd that people are expected to pick an ideological side between bayesian and frequentist and then apply that technique in 100% of cases
18:48:09 <Bike> well, not expected really
18:48:22 <Bike> just in "cares about obscure epistemology issue" land
18:48:40 <zzo38> kmc: I think Pascal's wager isn't really very good, because the things it considers isn't important and doesn't really prove anything anyways. There is also the reverse (which I have seen called "Rachel's Wager", so I will call it that), but that isn't very good either.
18:48:55 <Bike> in my high school stats class probability was defined bayesianly and then we went ahead and used entirely frequentist methods and nobody cared because it works and it's high school
18:49:23 <Bike> stuff like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindley's_paradox is still interesting though!
18:50:20 <kmc> zzo38: what's the reverse?
18:51:09 <zzo38> kmc: That you will go to hell for acting stupid if you believe in God.
18:51:22 <kmc> what do you mean?
18:51:31 <zzo38> Some people prefer it, but I think both ways are no good.
18:52:49 <Bike> there's http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.3868 if you actually care i guess
18:52:53 <Bike> also a billion other papers on it
18:58:14 <elliott> kmc: presumably "god loves atheists and hates believers, punishes appropriately, so you should not believe in him"
18:58:26 <elliott> that one is kinda more contradictory than pascal's wager though :P
18:58:32 <elliott> like "this sentence is true" vs. "this sentence is false"
19:07:36 <Bike> what's contradictory about it
19:08:25 <Bike> also i think i misrepresented myself, i don't care so much about the philosophy stuff (though obviously i pay some attention), what really annoys me is when people think bayesian methods are how human reason works, which seems all kinds of implausible to me for unphilosophical reasons
19:08:32 <Bike> i'm just incoherent and cna't explain myself, woe
19:09:11 <boily> ah, there are other places in the world with exclamation marks in their names: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westward_Ho!
19:10:29 <Bike> lol nice etymology
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19:28:22 <metasepia> CYUL 171900Z 21016G21KT 15SM FEW045 FEW160 SCT240 33/24 A2998 RMK CU1AC1CI2 SLP152 DENSITY ALT 2000FT
19:29:36 <boily> we're at apocalypse minus 5400 seconds.
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19:40:13 <kmc> how do ya figure
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19:48:32 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: oh, he meant me. sorry.
19:49:04 <boily> I peeked at the TAF. +TSGRRA coming in at 5pm EDT (9pm UTC).
19:50:01 -!- Taneb has joined.
19:50:34 <boily> thunderstorm, hail, rain. the + means “holy fungot of doom”.
19:53:23 <kmc> static PrototypeClassName__: [u8, ..21] = ['W' as u8, 'i' as u8, 'n' as u8, 'd' as u8, 'o' as u8, 'w' as u8, 'P' as u8, 'r' as u8, 'o' as u8, 'x' as u8, 'y' as u8, 'P' as u8, 'r' as u8, 'o' as u8, 't' as u8, 'o' as u8, 't' as u8, 'y' as u8, 'p' as u8, 'e' as u8, 0 as u8];
19:53:27 <kmc> i love generated code
19:53:45 <kmc> it's great working on open source because I am free to paste anything amusing at y'all
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19:56:16 <AnotherTest> I've always wondered whether that's actually a human thing
19:56:37 <kmc> this is Rust not Java
19:56:47 <Bike> kmc: for a second i thought that was bytecode.
19:57:05 <zzo38> I think having built-in code generator to a programming language would be useful things to have. Including both preprocessors and postprocessors.
19:57:09 <kmc> we have 'pub', but I'm still not sure what you're getting at
19:57:12 <Bike> What's the ..21, the length?
19:57:22 <elliott> rust syntax is like c++ except all the words are shorter
19:57:27 <Bike> > length "WindowProxyPrototype\0"
19:57:42 <kmc> this code is generated from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_IDL
19:57:51 <AnotherTest> kmc: the name of the class made me think java
19:58:05 <kmc> it's nice that the Web platform is specified (partially) in a machine-readable format
19:58:50 <elliott> The syntax of IDL files is fairly well documented in the Web IDL spec, but it is too formal to read, as Chromium project documentation states.[2]
19:59:25 <elliott> the best part is the citation
20:03:42 <kmc> it doesn't really do inheritance at all
20:04:17 <kmc> there's almost no subtyping either
20:04:18 <AnotherTest> I thought it did static polymorphism though?
20:05:08 <AnotherTest> so what determines whether you can have static polymorphism for a given object?
20:05:30 <Bike> is static polymorphism really a quality of "objects", i'm confused
20:06:16 <kmc> i don't understan AnotherTest's question either
20:06:22 <kmc> although I'm also trying to pay attention to something else
20:06:39 <kmc> there are "traits", they are kind of like type classes or interfaces, you can implement them for data structures
20:06:48 <AnotherTest> not sure if we're talking about the same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_metaprogramming#Static_polymorphism
20:06:52 <kmc> you can also have data structures with type parameters
20:07:15 <kmc> I don't know of any equivalent to CRTP in Rust...................
20:07:51 <AnotherTest> Well, that would just be a way of achieving it
20:07:55 <Bike> i was assuming parametric polymorphism
20:08:12 <kmc> so yeah traits are resolved statically
20:08:26 <kmc> because there's no subtyping, so no distinction between static and dynamic type
20:08:41 <kmc> the exception being when you existentially quantify over a trait, which happens implicitly by using it as a type name
20:08:46 <kmc> that is vtable-like, I think
20:09:00 <elliott> is there any way to get proper general existential quant
20:09:10 <elliott> kmc this language is kind of gross
20:09:16 <kmc> not gonna argue with that
20:09:24 <kmc> it's not haskell, if you want haskell you will be disappointed
20:09:28 <kmc> it does some things haskell can't
20:09:55 <elliott> sitting over here wanting haskell
20:10:10 <AnotherTest> kmc: traits are kind of like mixins right?
20:10:37 <Bike> elliott you'll never work for Mozilla at this rate.
20:10:39 <kmc> I don't really like explaining language features by answering questions of the form "they're kind of like X right?" where X is something I haven't used
20:10:52 <Bike> i'm pretty sure if you're talking about mixins without inheritance you are not going to get any useful analogy at all
20:11:08 <Bike> since like what does that even mean
20:11:09 <kmc> every language is a bit weird dood
20:11:19 <AnotherTest> elliott: I have not claimed that C++ isn't ;)
20:11:22 <Bike> snobol is the one true language that isn't weird at all, hth.
20:11:34 <kmc> Rust is very unusual though, almost no other language tries to give you precise control over allocation and be memory-safe at the same time
20:11:36 <metasepia> SNOBOL (StriNg Oriented and symBOlic Language) is a series of computer programming languages developed between 1962 and 1967 at AT&T Bell Laboratories by David J. Farber, Ralph E. Griswold and Ivan P. Polonsky, culminating in SNOBOL4.
20:12:13 <kmc> yeah unique_ptr is a clear inspiration for Rust`s ~ pointers but the C++ version is not statically safe in all cases
20:12:21 <elliott> C++, known for its memory safety
20:12:36 <AnotherTest> elliott: did you know GC is optional in C++11?
20:12:44 <AnotherTest> (note: optional, so nothing really changed)
20:12:47 <kmc> like if I move out of a unique_ptr and then try to dereference it later in the same scope
20:12:49 <Bike> what does that mean
20:12:55 <kmc> Rust will give a compiler error in that situation
20:12:59 <Bike> like GC is optional in C by some measure, isn't it
20:13:20 <AnotherTest> kmc: if you move out of a unique ptr, does this mean you are a pointer?
20:14:08 <AnotherTest> I don't really understand what you mean with "moving out of a unique_ptr"
20:14:24 <AnotherTest> do you mean getting the underlying pointer?
20:14:37 <kmc> no I mean calling a function with a unique_ptr argument, thereby transferring ownership to that function
20:15:13 <kmc> no i *do* want to transfer ownership, I just want the compiler to know that I've done so and complain later that I don't own the object anymore
20:15:20 <kmc> this is what I mean by "unique_ptr is not memory safe"
20:15:47 <kmc> and that's what Rust can do, by building unique ownership into the language deeply
20:17:28 <elliott> can rust handle more complex ownership situations
20:17:35 <elliott> like someone having read-only access and someone else having rw-access simultaneously
20:17:42 <AnotherTest> but suppose I want to transfer ownership based on some input, how would the compiler know what I'm doing?
20:17:53 <kmc> mutability is tracked
20:18:17 <AnotherTest> so it's not really a compile time thingy or is it
20:18:28 <kmc> AnotherTest: good question, I think if you want to use an owned thing after an 'if', it has to be not moved out by either branch
20:18:33 <kmc> similar to other type things
20:19:01 <kmc> the other major innovation in Rust is that you can "borrow" pointers to owned things (or GC'd things, or things on the stack) without transferring ownership
20:19:07 <kmc> and these borrowings are also statically checked for safety
20:20:15 <kmc> with one exception: when you borrow a pointer to a mutable GC'd box, it needs to be frozen dynamically
20:20:44 <kmc> because you don't know statically who else has access to such a box
20:21:27 <kmc> so if you hand out a borrowed pointer to a mutable GC'd box, and later try to mutate it, that can fail at runtime
20:22:03 <AnotherTest> will the compiler check for conditions that can never be met?
20:22:09 <kmc> what do you mean
20:22:21 <AnotherTest> eg. if I have if(true) else transferOwnership(); other things here
20:22:36 <kmc> i don't think so
20:22:42 <Bike> is that an actual concern
20:23:32 <kmc> not sure that rustc even does dead code elimination; mostly optimizations are handled by LLVM on the backend
20:23:42 <Bike> i'd say if the compiler can figure a condition is always met it should probably warn you...
20:24:01 <kmc> there are a lot of warnings, e.g. it will warn you if you declare something mutable and then don't mutate it
20:24:28 <AnotherTest> Bike: yeah, but for loops that's not always wanted
20:26:00 <AnotherTest> while(true) { transferOwnership(); break;} is it ok to use the pointer now?
20:27:23 <kmc> I don't know the fine points of the checker; obviously it has to be conservative (like basically any static analysis)
20:28:07 <AnotherTest> I find that static analysis has false positives sometimes
20:28:25 <kmc> if (proveRiemannHypothesis()) { transferOwnership(); }
20:29:00 <kmc> we don't expect the compiler to verify the riemann hypothesis in order to accept this code
20:29:16 <Fiora> if (collatzConjectureHasACycle())
20:29:18 <kmc> it can just reject the code even if it's actually safe
20:29:33 <kmc> i don't think this is an important criticism of the approach
20:29:38 <elliott> a program that halts if the RH is true would be pretty interesting
20:30:20 <Fiora> halting if RH is false is a lot easier, right?
20:30:48 <Bike> yeah, i thought this was like, the entire point of static analysis
20:30:49 <AnotherTest> kmc: you don't happen to have static if right?
20:30:52 <Bike> it's in TAPL's introduction, man.
20:31:14 <kmc> if you find that valid programs are rejected a lot *in practice* then that's a problem
20:31:20 <elliott> (I doubt such a program exists beyond the obvious "any program that halts, assuming the RH is true")
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20:32:07 <AnotherTest> kmc: well, if you had templates for example, this could become a problem
20:32:26 <AnotherTest> because then you'll have a lot of situations where code will always be true or false
20:32:27 <Bike> Guest41525: what sense of "exists" you talkin
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20:33:06 <Bike> elliott_: what sense of "exists" you talking ELLIOTT YOU PIECE OF SHIT YOU BETTER READ THE LOGS
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20:33:21 <kmc> AnotherTest: there is polymorphism, it's implemented like templates
20:33:29 * boily slaps elliott like an old CRT TV that has circuit problems and gets bad signal
20:33:50 <kmc> don't think you can get away with writing a polymorphic function which fails the ownership checks and then only instantiating it on things which, when constant folded, happen to be safe
20:34:05 <AnotherTest> kmc: I mean when you start comparing types
20:34:05 <kmc> I'd be really interested to see a practical example of something like that
20:34:33 <AnotherTest> kmc: this could be achieved with std::enable_if
20:35:01 <AnotherTest> but again, C++ doesn't do this, and I don't think it would ever be possible to add that to the current language
20:35:37 <coppro> wait, what are you trying to do?
20:35:49 <coppro> something stupid in C++?
20:38:08 <AnotherTest> kmc: suppose you had a list of types and you wanted to pass ownership of a pointer to only a sublist of those types
20:39:40 <AnotherTest> in that case, depending on what types someone puts in the list, the compiler might have to complain or not
20:40:03 <AnotherTest> but I don't think you can have lists of types in rust so there's no real problem
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20:40:25 <kmc> I'm not sure to what degree you can do the crazy C++ template tricks
20:40:33 <kmc> Rust does have an actual macro system, too
20:41:00 <kmc> don't know much about it, http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial-macros.html
20:41:30 <boily> first apocalyptic drops. it's starting.
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21:56:38 <elliott> is it feasible to give a linux VM read access to an ext4 partition so it can read it (the host OS cannot)
21:56:51 <elliott> it would be more convenient than using a live cd
21:58:58 <elliott> kind of scary giving a VM direct access to the disk like that
21:59:05 <kmc> feels good man
21:59:27 <kmc> one time I installed Windows to a spare partition, from a VM in this manner
21:59:31 <kmc> and then rebooted into it
21:59:35 <kmc> didn't work tho..............
21:59:41 <kmc> elliott: i don't know
21:59:45 <kmc> qemu / kvm can
22:00:07 <elliott> well, if I could run qemu/kvm I could read ext4 partitions too :P
22:00:15 <kmc> it's pretty common in the Enterprise to have your VMs on actual partitions or LVM LVs instead of files
22:00:18 <kmc> ah so that's the issue
22:00:25 <kmc> your host is Windows?
22:00:29 <kmc> isn't there a read-only ext driver for Windows
22:00:41 <elliott> I think that thing can only handle ext3 or whatever
22:00:50 <kmc> you can't mount ext4 as ext2/3?
22:00:55 <kmc> you can mount ext3 as ext2
22:00:57 <elliott> I think no if they use that superblock thing
22:01:12 <kmc> butt block
22:01:36 <elliott> anyway it would scare me too much, but I don't think it exists for OS X
22:01:50 <elliott> oh maybe there is a paid one
22:02:18 <elliott> suddenly giving a VM access to my disk sounds much less scary than all this
22:02:48 <kmc> you could also dd your ext4 partition to a file and then give the VM access to that
22:03:06 <elliott> it is like a hundred gigabytes though
22:03:07 <kmc> or maybe you can find some userspace ext4-parsing tools
22:03:11 <elliott> I don't actually have enough space for that
22:03:14 <Fiora> "ext3 is partially forward compatible with ext4. That is, ext4 can be mounted as ext3 (using "ext3" as the filesystem type when mounting). However if the ext4 partition uses extents (a major new feature of ext4), then the ability to mount as ext3 is lost."
22:03:14 <Bike> "victim-operated improvised explosive devices"
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22:03:34 <elliott> Fiora: okay yeah, extents must be what I was thinking of then
22:03:56 <elliott> I don't actually know if the partition uses them but I don't really want to bother finding out as opposed to just doing something that'll work regardless...
22:04:11 <elliott> I checked Wikipedia but didn't see that, go me
22:04:49 <Fiora> "Ext4 - Linux filesystem (when the configuration enables extents — the default in Linux since version 2.6.23)."
22:04:59 <Fiora> that's... I guess probably it won't work then >_<
22:05:06 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: it's a landmine
22:05:28 <Bike> for a suicide bomb the attacker would die but not really be a victim.
22:05:52 <Phantom__Hoover> wp also sez the pIRA was where the term was first applied so 'land mine' is probably too specific
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22:15:31 <oerjan> horror-evading euphemistic terminology
22:16:26 <oerjan> hm needs something with an ironic acronym
22:16:31 <olsner> *people-to-pieces converter
22:16:52 <kmc> what if you trick someone into building a bomb
22:16:58 <kmc> by telling them it's something else
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22:17:51 <Bike> this came up because i was reading about some kid in syria making strides in cheap peoplekilling
22:17:53 <zzo38> Which is easier, to trick someone to build a bomb if you tell them it is not a bomb, or to trick someone to build some thing that isn't a bomb if you tell them that it is a bomb?
22:17:54 <Bike> rather depressing
22:18:07 <Bike> made grenades for $3
22:27:04 <olsner> hmm, according to my calculations this season is supposed to be from 2000, yet no-one has a cell phone
22:28:15 <Bike> http://tobtu.com/decryptocat.php "oops" again.
22:30:36 <kmc> season of what?
22:33:14 <Bike> "Abu Yassin, a former network engineer who has emerged as one of Aleppo’s most prolific weapons manufacturers." this could be you, #esoteric
22:33:21 <zzo38> In what city is that where no-one has a cell phone?
22:35:23 <Fiora> Bike: geez, they are like, schizophrenic on exactly what kind of cryptography to use
22:35:39 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/Pyongyang-A-Journey-North-Korea/dp/1897299214 is pretty cool
22:35:46 <zzo38> How many people have cellphone in that city in 2000?
22:35:58 <kmc> as is http://www.amazon.com/Jerusalem-Chronicles-Holy-Guy-Delisle/dp/1770460713/ref=sr_1_1
22:36:07 <elliott> Bike: did something happen (beyond the last time that made the rounds, I can't tell if it changed?)
22:36:52 <Bike> oh i didn't know it made rounds
22:38:03 <Bike> well, it's updated as of the eleventh.
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22:41:07 <Bike> wow, this guy worked in a network outfit in beirut and only made $25k...
22:42:27 <kmc> what's the purchasing power adjustment?
22:43:27 <Bike> i um, don't even know what that means. >_>
22:43:46 <Bike> like, to adjust for cost of living differences or something?
22:44:34 <Bike> i really don't know.
22:44:52 <Bike> it says it "meant he lived well"
22:45:51 <shachaf> caltraaaaain to san francisco
22:46:34 <Bike> "When I ask about one odd-looking, 15-foot-long wooden trebuchet, which its proud creator is using to hurl 4-pound fragmentation bombs, he tells me he got the idea from the videogame Age of Empires. "
22:47:10 <Fiora> it feels weird to think that I am part of an entire generation that grew up on age of empires 2
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22:47:59 <Bike> i'm sitting here reading wired articles and another guy who played the same game decided to build trebuchets to blow things up.
22:48:19 <Fiora> like I've met all kinds of people who like all kinds of different things
22:48:39 <Fiora> but when I mention age of empires 2
22:48:45 <Fiora> everyone is like "oh that game!!!" and starts squeeing about it
22:48:50 <shachaf> kmc: are you going to bacat
22:48:50 <Fiora> and suddenly we have a thing in common
22:49:07 <Bike> "After they use repeated test firings to determine the mortar’s range—usually around 2 kilometers—the rebels check Google Maps to pick a suitable spot that sits the same distance from their target. They transport the rocket there and then use a compass to aim it." christ
22:49:35 <kmc> is that today
22:50:24 <Bike> what the hecks, he tried building a robot...
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22:54:38 <kmc> eating cheetos with chopsticks is so civilized
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22:55:05 <Fiora> cheetos... with... chopsticks?
22:55:14 <shachaf> kmc: not sure i can be civilized hth
22:57:22 <kmc> Fiora: yeah so the dust doesn't get on your hands
22:57:38 <Fiora> that's.... that's actually kind of brilliant O_O
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22:58:24 <mnoqy> i'm not much of a cheetos guy but iv always eaten them with spoons or forks or something
22:58:30 <mnoqy> maybe i should learn chopsticks
22:58:41 <kmc> chopsticks are pretty cool
22:58:58 <kmc> i like how asian chefs use giant chopsticks to manipulate the food they're cooking
22:59:34 <kmc> also factory workers applying bonding wires to integrated circuits http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2946
23:02:31 <Bike> what the hell.
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23:04:06 <kmc> i've said this before but bunnie's blog is incredibly interesting
23:04:38 <pikhq_> Chopsticks are pretty great for cheetos.
23:04:45 <kmc> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=147 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?page_id=1022
23:04:57 <kmc> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2269
23:05:02 <kmc> "China: Crowdsourced Tax Enforcement"
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23:06:49 <Bike> makes radio shack look pathetic
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23:09:07 <Fiora> that microsd article is really interesting
23:09:17 <kmc> radio shack doesn't need any help looking pathetic
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23:22:05 <kmc> although they are getting less pathetic, they have Arduinos and stuff now
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