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00:28:52 <SirCmpwn> have you guys seen the super-quine yet
00:28:53 <SirCmpwn> https://github.com/mame/quine-relay
00:30:12 <Bike> oh that was you huh
00:30:56 <SirCmpwn> I have never written a working quine
00:48:02 <coppro> are quotes from other channels allowed?
00:48:18 <Phantom_Hoover> what's with the star of david in the middle of the ouroboros
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01:07:00 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/uMbB7its
01:08:37 <elliott> i went for shift and hit ~ too
01:08:49 <shachaf> do you have a ""weird keyboard""
01:09:25 <shachaf> does your keyboard look like http://www.goodtyping.com/teclatUKok.png
01:10:27 <Bike> it's an application to a forum
01:10:48 <Bike> pretty sure they're going to be let in, i like their style
01:12:21 <shachaf> elliott: ok this is double weird
01:12:24 <shachaf> or maybe even triple weird
01:12:32 <shachaf> you press shift with your right hand??
01:13:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ~: not found
01:13:18 <elliott> is the key to the right of shift
01:13:43 <shachaf> so how does your keyboard look
01:14:20 <shachaf> like this? http://kb.parallels.com/Attachments/19485/Images/wireless-british.jpg
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01:35:04 <kmc> the fact that the busy beaver sequence grows faster than any computable sequence is at once kind of obvious and totally mind-blowing
01:37:42 <Bike> sequences that grow slower than any monotonically increasing sequence are weirder, imo
01:38:07 <elliott> glad I could spread the fear of those
01:38:24 <elliott> btw you forgot "computable"
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01:39:06 <Bike> you'll figure it out
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01:40:03 <kmc> i guess some kind of busy-beaver-inverse is an example of that?
01:40:40 <kmc> f(n) = number of states needed to make a halting 2-symbol TM that runs for n steps
01:41:48 <kmc> i like that inverse Ackermann function α(n) that comes up in algorithms analysis
01:42:03 <Bike> yeah. the one i know f(x) = smallest kolmogorov complexity of y for all y >= x
01:42:05 <kmc> which you basically assume is less than 5 for any input
01:42:13 <Bike> how the hecks does inverse ackermann even come up
01:42:21 <HackEgo> 54) <oklopol> actually just ate some of the dog food because i didn't have any human food... after a while they start tasting like porridge \ 75) <fax> oklopol geez what are you doing here <oklokok> ...i don't know :< <oklokok> i actually ate until now, although i guess i also did other things... \ 109) <oklopol> but yeah i'm not exactly comforta
01:42:22 <kmc> i don't remember
01:42:26 <HackEgo> 335) <oklopol> are there boobs you wack and squeeze around to move the mouse? [...] <oklopol> like those little nipples in laptop keyboards, but they'd be full-blown boobies \ 665) <oklopol> i think i'll just take the usual route and go do post doc research somewhere far away and never come back and become a drug lord and kill myself
01:42:40 <HackEgo> 242) <oklopol> okay see in my head it went, you send from your other number smth like "i'd certainly like to see you in those pink panties again" and she's like "WHAT?!? Sgeo took a pic?!?!?! that FUCKING PIG" \ 400) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan
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01:42:42 <zzo38> What ways are there to make C Turing-complete? Perhaps making a byte have an infinite number of bits?
01:42:47 <Bike> i mean i've heard of it obviously
01:43:09 <kmc> zzo38: IO on unseekable streams?
01:43:46 <Bike> "This inverse appears in the time complexity of some algorithms, such as the disjoint-set data structure and Chazelle's algorithm for minimum spanning trees." hey that's actually kind of noticeably a thing
01:44:34 <elliott> meanwhile, https://secunia.com/blog/372
01:45:38 <Bike> "In fact, this is asymptotically optimal: Fredman and Saks showed in 1989 that \Omega(\alpha(n)) words must be accessed by any disjoint-set data structure per operation on average" nice
01:45:47 <Bike> also nice, that pasted correctly
01:47:29 <kmc> the alpha and the omega
01:48:19 <Bike> elliott: security drama is hilarious
01:49:14 <Bike> "I think VLC mediaplayer in principle is an excelent peace of software. " i don't even know what this means. what's the VLC principle
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02:11:33 <Sgeo> Guess I should use a different video player
02:12:57 <kmc> mplayer 4 lyfe
02:14:50 <Sgeo> "World's #1 text MMO / MUD" ... "Where women wear real armor"
02:15:00 <Sgeo> Is it not possible for women to wear real armor if you can see them?
02:15:09 -!- sardig has joined.
02:15:18 <sardig> So I decided to write a cipher, see if anyone can crack it! Hints: It is all ASCII code, available via keyboard. Cipher key: (Hexadecimal) http://pastebin.com/bN7UZCGw Encrypted text: (Hexadecimal): http://pastebin.com/KuKGf7Q0
02:15:23 <sardig> Paste the ASCII deciphered(hint) result.
02:15:26 <Sgeo> http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/2970-1373396333.jpg
02:15:45 <Sgeo> Also, that image does not make me think of a MUD. An MMO maybe, but not a MUD.
02:15:59 <elliott> sardig: you're that challenge person with a bunch of names right
02:16:50 <Bike> Available via keyboard
02:18:22 <kmc> sardig: you could ask in ##crypto too
02:19:14 <sardig> I could, but yarrkov does not like it.
02:19:39 <elliott> so are there any details at all as to the code here or is it just a heap of bits that you have to decode with no information about the cipher
02:20:41 <sardig> But if you ask, ill be able to assist you
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02:23:05 <Bike> alright i got this cipher
02:24:37 <Bike> Did I ever tell you about the man who taught his asshole to talk? His whole abdomen would move up and down, you dig, farting out the words. It was unlike anything I ever heard. Bubbly, thick, stagnant sound. A sound you could smell. This man worked for the carnival, you dig? And to start with it was like a novelty ventriloquist act. After a while, the ass started talking on its own. He would go in without anything prepared... and his ass woul
02:25:09 <Bike> pretty sure this message should have stayed ciphered, sardig.
02:25:55 <Bike> that's the message isn't it
02:25:59 <Bike> just a caesar cipher
02:26:00 <sardig> Bike: That is not the cipher?
02:26:10 <shachaf> that kind of challenge isn't welcome here imo
02:26:11 <Bike> well obviously it's not the cipher, you pasted the cipher
02:26:14 <Bike> it's the decrypted text
02:27:25 <sardig> Bike: What did you exactly do? That is not the message.
02:28:03 <Bike> it's just a caesar cipher, shift all the letters to the right a few places
02:28:13 <Bike> i mean you could have at least gone for vignere, made it more challenging
02:28:38 <sardig> Bike: Show us how you did it, because that is not the plaintext...
02:29:14 <Bike> what do you mean show you it's the simplest cipher in the world
02:29:22 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_cipher
02:30:03 <shachaf> imo the simplest cipher is the identity cipher hth
02:30:10 <sardig> Bike: Are you trying to troll?
02:30:25 <Bike> shachaf: that's just caesar zero.
02:30:39 <sardig> Bike: How could you shift it so quick?
02:30:48 <shachaf> ok then it's not a cipher, it's a family of ciphers!!
02:30:54 <Bike> uh... it's not like i was doing it by hand...
02:31:03 <sardig> Bike: Then show us what you used.
02:31:17 <kmc> IRC pro move: show up in a channel and immediately accuse channel regulars of trolling
02:31:35 <sardig> kmc: That is not the plaintext...
02:31:42 <elliott> you're mastring/mafingre right
02:31:42 <sardig> You can even check yourself.
02:31:58 <elliott> how can you check? you gave no details about the cipher
02:32:03 <elliott> so the plaintext could be anything at all
02:32:27 <sardig> I gave 2 details about the cipher
02:33:20 <sardig> Bike: http://realitystudio.org/texts/naked-lunch/talking-asshole/
02:33:28 <sardig> You got what you said from there.
02:33:34 <shachaf> here's the ciphertext: yxkGC3YhlRmcmr96NsKiInoDC19I5IHizprvMOeypXpX4UfH4qRsg7V3nMUfxDHXXp8FuwvtDjH7
02:33:42 <shachaf> here's the key: D6u5utqNryrIPCwQuAdlUe
02:33:56 <sardig> shachaf: Is it an actual cipher?
02:34:04 <Bike> of course it is, he said so right there
02:34:07 <shachaf> what makes a cipher actual
02:34:10 <kmc> what is government if words have no meaning
02:34:15 <Bike> and I mean, I appareciate Burroughs as much as the next guy, but it's kind of weird to just come in the channel and paste it
02:34:19 <sardig> It decodes to plaintext
02:34:39 <kmc> most things do
02:34:56 <sardig> Bike: Your attempt at trolling is not helping.
02:35:08 <Bike> why do you keep saying that
02:35:19 <sardig> Bike: You are yet to show me how you did it
02:35:37 <Bike> > map (\x -> fromEnum (toEnum x + 3) :: Char) "hello"
02:35:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
02:35:40 <elliott> sardig: are you mastring/mafingre, I just want to know
02:35:45 <Bike> always with the type errors
02:35:58 <Bike> > map (\x -> (fromEnum (toEnum x + 3)) :: Char) "hello"
02:35:59 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `GHC.Types.Char'
02:36:57 <Bike> > map (\x -> (toEnum (fromEnum x + 3)) :: Char) "hello"
02:37:09 <Bike> my actual code was in python but i don't think we have a python evalbot.
02:37:28 <elliott> EgoBot is underappreciated, it does tons of languages
02:37:28 <Bike> wow where were you five minutes ago dude
02:37:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
02:37:48 <Bike> isn't linguine a kind of pasta
02:38:00 <Bike> yes i know ideone does, but it's so trivial i wanted it just in the channel
02:38:16 <Bike> are you like actually not aware of caesar ciphers? they're perfect to teach crypto to kids
02:38:27 <Bike> @google linguine language
02:38:29 <lambdabot> http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indepthanalysis/rexmurphy/story/2013/02/21/thenational-rexmurphy-022113.html
02:38:29 <lambdabot> Title: CBC News - The National - Rex Murphy - On Language and Linguine
02:38:32 <sardig> Bike: So where is the key inputted?
02:38:58 <Bike> it doesn't need the key, you just put that in to misdirect.
02:39:28 <sardig> > map (\x -> (toEnum (fromEnum x + 3)) :: Char) "17e4c459841029f07a1fbeb011ba7e5d5cadb75628d1514e524ec877c34ca78241589c5849981725f89ce03f3fb273f347b21982357d43725541c936d6726677abcd143bccead76f57765168b53dc3f0268cd9"
02:39:29 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '...
02:39:59 <Bike> i don't know what you expected
02:42:11 <Bike> ok look we're obviously fucking with you, because your 'challenge' is boring and technically impossible because as shachaf implied you could use an arbitrary algorithm to have arbitrary plaintext, and playing 'guess the commonly used algorithm' is no fun. ok?
02:42:29 <Bike> plus if elliott is to be believed you're dumping this randomly into channels for some reason
02:42:30 <sardig> Bike: You were trolling.
02:42:57 <elliott> well i just find the names things curious that's all
02:43:05 <elliott> would be less curious if sardig answered :P
02:43:20 <shachaf> sardig: Are you mafingre/mastring/etc.?
02:43:32 <sardig> elliott: Who/what is that?
02:43:43 <elliott> sardig: two people with the same IP as you.
02:43:50 <elliott> who joined using the same web client as you to ask the same challenges as you.
02:44:07 <elliott> so uh, I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt there but are you actually denying you're them.
02:44:11 <sardig> I have only ever joined once as this name.
02:44:20 <sardig> Well, I live in a shared apartment
02:44:27 <Bike> oh, god, don't even do that.
02:44:50 <sardig> Live in a shared apartment?
02:45:07 <Bike> claim your roommate came in and did something objectionable (not that this is really that objectionable anyway!) when somebody notices your IP did something objectionable.
02:45:09 <elliott> ok, look, it's really really obvious that they're you.
02:45:29 <elliott> like, you can just forget that. i'll forgive you if you stop insulting all our intelligence by implying you're not them. i mean seriously.
02:45:51 <Bike> i mean, we've all been around the block a few times. as you know i am an accomplished troll, familiar with exciting troll tactics such as weird excuses and resetting my router to get a slightly different IP that is noticed in two seconds.
02:46:15 <sardig> Bike: I knew you were trolling, you were not accomplished.
02:46:50 <elliott> sardig: have I not made it clear that you're digging yourself a pretty deep hole here.
02:47:11 <Bike> look i'm sorry for being mean but seriously nobody cares about your challenge, aight
02:47:38 <Bike> you know i don't actually own Naked Lunch, I do have Junkie but it's too psychotic for me to read
02:47:56 <Bike> I should watch the movie sometime though.
02:48:05 <Bike> of naked lunch, not junkie. i don't think there's a movie of junkie.
02:50:52 <HackEgo> 2013-07-15 07:04:00: <Gracenotes> I think I will have to skip that, didn't plan far enough ahead
02:51:05 <Bike> still disappointed he didn't get high, tbh
02:51:52 <Bike> uh... around 7:04:00 apparently.
02:52:32 <shachaf> well getting hi is the beginning of any good phone call
02:53:41 <shachaf> sardig: So are you mafingre etc. or are you a different person using the same IP address joining the same channel to give the same sort of challenge?
02:54:10 <sardig> I may or may not be mafingre's room-mate
02:54:15 <Bike> no, look, don't.
02:54:29 <shachaf> sardig: Just answer the question.
02:55:40 <elliott> ok cool so what was with the whole roommate thing. I mean really. you could have just said.
02:55:40 <Bike> see, there we go.
02:56:16 <sardig> Can i ask a serious question about a project I am working on though?
02:57:20 <sardig> I am creating a messaging software (secure) And thinking of using sha256; well, the only time it uses the sha hash is to send the pass for conformation, then it uses the md5 hash of the pass as the key for the encryption (AES) , the server then uses this encryption to send the iv to the client, and then they both use the md5 hash and the iv to do any other encrypting of messages
02:57:26 <sardig> iv is a random long generated on server startup
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02:57:46 <Bike> why switch algos?
02:57:47 <shachaf> Maybe this challenge is more appropriate for ##crypto.
02:57:47 <sardig> How does that sound? is it safe/secure?
02:58:10 <sardig> shachaf: Currently banned there.
02:59:06 <shachaf> kmc: A jar? For cooking rice?
02:59:10 <elliott> what did you get banned for :P
02:59:14 <shachaf> OK, it doesn't work very well if the person isn't even in the channel.
02:59:31 <sardig> elliott: Yarrkov did not like my challenges.
03:00:16 <shachaf> Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority
03:00:21 <Bike> no shachaf don't
03:00:36 <sardig> I just said he was finnish
03:00:45 <Bike> he's referencing a recent internet fit
03:01:00 <elliott> imo I gave linus one quote too many the first time
03:01:13 <Bike> anyway i suppose using the same "iv" for channels across one server invocation could be insecure, maybe the attacker can use the similarity to break encryption, or whatever
03:01:56 <kmc> (Like) Linus
03:03:05 <sardig> Bike: if we wanted, we could have a unique iv per connection
03:03:52 <Bike> hm, whatshisname (scheiner) had a free book on security didn't he
03:04:00 <Bike> free and/or i pirated it, anyway it's gonna be better than me
03:04:11 <sardig> He is the cryptography master
03:04:15 <shachaf> The IV isn't meant to be encrypted in the first place.
03:04:36 <Bike> is that a thing? i'm just reading "intravenuous"
03:04:37 <sardig> if it helps it's "AES/CBC/PKCS5Padding" (the algo we are using)
03:04:54 <shachaf> What you should be using is a high-level cryptography library.
03:05:11 <shachaf> Hmm, or maybe you are in this case. I don't know.
03:05:21 <shachaf> But you shouldn't be thinking about sha256 and md5 yourself.
03:05:40 <sardig> Would you like to see my Java code?
03:05:48 <sardig> That I have implemented for the algo.
03:05:59 <Bike> errrr do you know the first rule of cryptography
03:06:20 <shachaf> I don't especially want to help you in the first place, since you joined this channel after being banned from ##crypto, lied about who you are repeatedly, and accused people of trolling.
03:07:06 <sardig> shachaf: I accused correctly.
03:07:08 <shachaf> Also if I help you implement cryptography you'll surely get it wrong anyway -- that's how it works -- but maybe it'd be in a less obvious way, so more people would use your code. So net harm increase.
03:07:37 <sardig> Anyways back to my original question, so, yes to sha256?
03:07:50 <Bike> yeah the first rule of cryptography is don't roll your own, because you're gonna make some minor screwup and nobody's going to notice until your bank's on fire and you have to move to Guam
03:07:55 <elliott> sardig: you should drop the trolling accusation.
03:08:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
03:08:09 <sardig> elliott: He even admitted to trolling...
03:08:18 <kmc> hi elliott
03:08:22 <Bike> shit, there goes kmc's voice.
03:08:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:08:36 <shachaf> kmc didn't have voice anyway
03:08:37 <elliott> Bike: ummm he hasn't had voice for like weeks
03:08:43 <Bike> elliott: imo voice me.
03:08:55 <elliott> don't you know anything about impartiality
03:09:03 <elliott> i could voice a completely random person
03:09:20 <Bike> i think you knowing anything about impartiality makes it impossible for you to be impossible about impartiality.
03:09:29 <Bike> Also impossible.
03:09:33 <sardig> md5 is used for 128bit key
03:09:39 <elliott> Bike: do you want a voice or the opposite of a voice here.
03:09:50 <Bike> i don't... what's the opposite of a voice.
03:10:22 <elliott> have you ever seen The Matrix
03:10:37 <Bike> oh, that scene.
03:10:47 <sardig> Thought it was hacker nonsense.
03:11:48 <shachaf> i'll deop myself soon thereafter
03:12:10 <elliott> i think oerjan would fire me, hth
03:13:12 <elliott> who's the opposite of shachaf in here
03:13:15 <elliott> (impartiality-related question)
03:14:14 <sardig> elliott: That is a mindless challenge
03:14:55 <sardig> Hardly, just saying not much thought would be involved
03:15:04 <sardig> It is not like it is a puzzle or anything
03:15:20 <Bike> you know sudoku can be solved automatically?
03:15:23 <Bike> like, thoughtlessly.
03:15:28 <Bike> being "a puzzle" doesn't mean anything.
03:15:37 <sardig> Bike: Yes, its not challenging
03:15:44 <sardig> You know my challenge requires thought.
03:15:47 <kmc> dude, what is thought, even, woah
03:15:50 <Bike> no, i really don't
03:15:58 <elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
03:16:10 <Bike> to solve your challenge i have to figure out what algorithm you used, which is mostly something i have to figure out from your personality
03:16:14 <shachaf> elliott: perhaps i'm self-dual
03:16:18 <kmc> `addquote <@elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
03:16:21 <kmc> shachaf: like the magestic photon
03:16:22 <HackEgo> 1073) <@elliott> well, I think if you don't think figuring out who the opposite of shachaf is requires thought, then you don't know shachaf very well
03:16:36 <elliott> btw the main thing with your challenge is that the ciphertext and key you gave don't actually add any information
03:16:42 <elliott> since the algorithm can be literally anything and do literally anything with them.
03:16:53 <elliott> the question is equivalent to "what number am I thinking of?"
03:17:11 <sardig> elliott: fizzie once solved one of my cipher challenges
03:17:13 <elliott> it was actually probably 1073 if anything
03:17:25 <sardig> I gave him the same info
03:17:28 <Bike> well the digital root of 1073 is half of 4.
03:18:00 <Bike> sardig: yes, there's a correct answer if we can guess what algorithm you used, based on what we can guess about you, and assuming you don't just lie (which, while you might not do so, is perfectly possible given the lack of constraints on the puzzle)
03:18:14 <elliott> sardig: was that in another channel or something
03:18:41 <Bike> and anyway, "I guessed what someone on IRC was thinking" isn't very satisfying to finish.
03:18:43 <sardig> elliott: It was in ##asm
03:18:51 <Bike> that seems off topic in asm...
03:19:04 <elliott> well not any more off-topic than in #esoteric
03:19:04 <sardig> Bike: Well, fizzie is a smart person
03:19:07 <elliott> anyway not all of us are as cool as fizzie
03:19:10 <kmc> can anyone decrypt this message? 8============================================D
03:19:18 <Bike> ok well #esoteric is the opposite of topical
03:19:30 <sardig> It is esoteric after all! Ha
03:19:38 <Bike> he is a smart person but i don't know what that has to do with anything really
03:19:44 <Bike> elliott: if you could insert a voice recognition joke here
03:19:55 <elliott> let's just assume I made one
03:20:09 <sardig> Has anyone met fizzie IRL?
03:20:10 <shachaf> Bike: how can fizzie do voice recognition..............when no one has voice
03:20:32 <Bike> shachaf we need to find your opposite first.
03:20:35 <Bike> to preserve the balance.
03:20:41 <shachaf> elliott: i guess i'm not very good at voice recognition..............................
03:20:44 <sardig> ##philosophy is trollsville
03:20:51 <elliott> did you ask ##philosophy too
03:21:03 <Bike> telling us about all these channels you spammed isn't really endearing.
03:21:07 <shachaf> Bike: Do you know things about boolean groups?
03:21:15 <shachaf> Bike: I.e. groups where every element is its own inverse.
03:21:20 <Bike> different sense of "endearing"
03:21:24 <Bike> shachaf: not very many things :(
03:21:36 <Bike> is there one besides GF(2)
03:21:37 <shachaf> Bike: xor is a good example!!
03:22:34 <shachaf> Are there any other good examples?
03:22:52 <shachaf> anyway it means e.g. that a+b=c <==> a=b+c
03:22:57 <shachaf> and that the group is commutative
03:23:15 <Bike> isn't there only one group of order two
03:23:45 <shachaf> The elements are of order (at most) 2, not the group.
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03:32:36 <elliott> kmc: it's great to be on top
03:33:03 <shachaf> kmc: i decrypted it and it's a kitten
03:33:19 <shachaf> not a binary encoding of a kitten, an actual kitten
03:33:44 <kmc> a christmas miracle
03:34:18 <shachaf> can't handle a kitten right now :'(
03:34:59 <Fiora> elliott can I have op too
03:35:08 <Bike> are you going to ban me :(
03:35:15 <elliott> how about we just op everybody simultaneously
03:35:22 <elliott> and whoever's left in the channel last wins
03:35:27 <shachaf> Fiora: do you even have anything to do with it
03:35:55 <kmc> managed box containing elliott
03:36:12 <elliott> I'll let you know my box isn't managed at all
03:36:18 <Bike> anyway http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/17054/group-where-every-element-is-order-2
03:36:25 <Fiora> also I want to be part of the cool @ club :<
03:36:35 <Bike> if i'm reading this right they're all whatevertheufuck-dimensional vector spaces, but i'm probably not reading it right
03:37:29 <elliott> i think the need for the @ has vanished now anyway
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03:37:47 <Bike> wasn't the only need for it that you wanted to look cool next to kmc
03:37:50 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
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03:37:52 <Bike> (you failed btw........)
03:37:53 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
03:38:16 <elliott> that wasn't as good as the time I deopped shachaf in #haskell :/
03:38:58 <elliott> it was a spammer or something and we both opped and I got to it before you
03:39:31 <shachaf> and then the ban wasn't quite right or something so i had to reöp?
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04:35:57 <kmc> status: drinking scotch out of a MongoDB coffee mug
04:36:21 <shachaf> kmc: everyone seems to have those
04:37:16 <kmc> is it because mongodb is bro-scale
04:37:50 <shachaf> well i worked at a competitor
04:37:56 <shachaf> come to think of it i didn't get any mugs, though
04:38:35 <kmc> i guess you did
04:45:57 <kmc> also bought an ``e-cigarette''
04:46:07 <kmc> the tip glows blue when you use it
04:48:42 <shachaf> are you going to ``e-smoke´´ it
04:48:54 <kmc> already doing
04:49:32 <Fiora> enjoy your um, digital nicotine?
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05:05:07 <shachaf> whoa, dude, Wikipedia got a WYSIWYG editor?
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05:27:46 <Sgeo> I wish the DotA map were rotated a bit, so the DotA 2 logo would be %
05:30:30 <zzo38> How many light-hours from Earth to Pluto?
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05:39:47 <Gracenotes> shachaf: it's only been coming for, like, 8 years
05:40:47 <kmc> hi Gracenotes
05:40:50 <kmc> how's your new job?
05:41:10 <kmc> zzo38: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+from+earth+to+pluto+in+light-seconds
05:41:14 <kmc> 15,714 light seconds
05:41:28 <Gracenotes> I'm busy figuring out wtf is going on.
05:41:35 <kmc> 4.365 light hours
05:41:40 <shachaf> Gracenotes: I thought you were an expert!
05:41:45 <kmc> 2.1825 heavy hours
05:41:53 <kmc> Gracenotes: me too :/
05:42:11 <kmc> chasing down a segfault in Servo, memory-safe language my ass
05:42:44 <kmc> $ grep 'unsafe' $(find -name '*.rs' -o -name '*.rc') | wc -l
05:43:44 <Bike> People I have evidence that the Chinese anticipated the men who stare at goats by over two centuries
05:43:50 <Bike> Observe: Sheep in military formation http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Receiving_the_surrender_of_the_Yili.jpg
05:43:50 <shachaf> perhaps gadts will fix your segfaults
05:44:02 <shachaf> i took five unsafeCoerces out of lens using gadts!!
05:44:12 <kmc> congratschaf
05:44:27 <shachaf> now i want to convert it to use Proxy
05:44:32 <kmc> is there a bounty for each one
05:44:48 <shachaf> Proxy as in data Proxy a = Proxy
05:44:58 <kmc> such a nice simple data type
05:45:05 <shachaf> kmc: Proxy is the best imo
05:45:07 <Bike> what's the point of that type
05:45:21 <shachaf> passing a type as a parameter, more or less
05:45:24 <kmc> shachaf: did you see https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/7671 :/
05:45:25 <Gracenotes> humankind is not yet advanced enough to construct lens library without unsafeCoerce
05:45:59 <shachaf> does servo use phantom types
05:46:17 <Gracenotes> shachaf: is 'a' usually higher-kinded, in Proxy?
05:46:29 <kmc> the DOM has a phantom type parameter and this is used to restrict what the script task vs. the render task can do with it
05:46:45 <shachaf> Gracenotes: Polykinded Proxy is coming, or something.
05:46:56 <shachaf> > typeOf (undefined :: Int)
05:47:19 <shachaf> It doesn't actually use its argument -- that's just used for picking a type class instance.
05:47:26 <fizzie> kmc: I'm a bit disappointed that just gives a single number, instead of some kind of time slider thing, or at least a graph. (At least it does accept "at YYYY-mm-dd" specifiers.)
05:47:34 <shachaf> But you can define typeRep :: Typeable a => Proxy a -> TypeRep
05:47:48 <shachaf> And then you can say typeRep (Proxy :: Proxy Int), no undefined necessary.
05:48:03 <fizzie> Oh, plain "distance from earth to pluto" yields a graph.
05:48:10 <Gracenotes> and it also doesn't involve any allocation. that nice.
05:48:58 <Gracenotes> well, it's a nullary constructor, the strictness analyzer might not bother setting up a closure for it
05:51:12 <Gracenotes> Anyway, I have a lot of things to learn. I have classes essentially 6-7 hours a day this week.
05:51:29 <kmc> Google-classes?
05:51:45 <kmc> how long does that go on?
05:52:23 <Gracenotes> maximal density, then half density, then less density
05:52:36 <shachaf> Gracenotes: But undefined won't get allocation either, presumably, presumably. It's just shared. Or am I wrong?
05:53:09 <Bike> do you have a class on sphere packing
05:53:33 <kmc> zeno's google classes
05:53:39 <kmc> are they interesting?
05:53:59 <Gracenotes> shachaf: hm, perhaps. different closure types for sure, if they are both closures and not optimized out by some means
05:54:34 <Gracenotes> I'm just thinking of it as analogous to [] or Nothing or especially (), around which some optimization occurs
05:55:00 <shachaf> I don't see a reason for allocation at any rate.
05:55:15 <shachaf> Especially not if typeOf gets inlined. :-)
05:57:01 <shachaf> kmc: imo rust should get rank-2 types implemented with a jit
05:57:10 <Gracenotes> "I know you have a dictionary somewhere, ghc... give it to me..."
05:57:15 <Bike> "Hales estimates that producing a complete formal proof will take around 20 years of work." christ
06:09:26 <kmc> working on it
06:09:36 <kmc> Bike: of what
06:10:21 <Bike> proof that the usual sphere packing is the most efficient
06:15:51 <shachaf> kmc: rustc takes a long time to compile rustc, too :'(
06:16:02 <zzo38> shachaf: What is "that weird one"?
06:16:45 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pipes
06:18:36 <shachaf> Is there an easy way to generate rust tags?
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06:20:58 <kmc> i don't know of any such way
06:21:41 <shachaf> A hard way? https://github.com/mozilla/rust/issues/1731 hints at a regexp thing.
06:22:12 <kmc> i don't know of a hard way, either
06:22:20 <kmc> I just use ack-grep
06:28:38 <shachaf> The enum vs. struct distinction is odd.
06:29:00 <shachaf> There's various code in the compiler that treats them differently even where it wouldn't really seem necessary.
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06:33:04 <kmc> there do seem to be a number of things like that
06:33:42 <kmc> I was talking with sully about how traits can have type parameters, which makes them act like a poor man's MPTC, but this was only realized after the fact because there aren't enough diehard Haskellers on the Rust team :/
06:34:07 <kmc> it's not exactly like MPTC either, the last parameter is special in various ways (e.g. you can implicitly existentially quantify over it, by using the trait name as a type)
06:35:17 <kmc> also static methods of a trait are implemented differently from non-static, whereas in Haskell you can put the typeclass parameter on the LHS or RHS of -> or both and (I believe) compilers mostly don't care
06:36:14 <Gracenotes> are functions expecting traits specializable to particular types?
06:37:15 <Gracenotes> kmc: wherever the parameter is, you're still passing *in* a dictionary, yeah. (or inlining)
06:38:05 <kmc> it's the inlining one
06:39:04 <kmc> in Rust a polymorphic function is compiled separately for each instantiation, kinda like C++ templates
06:39:14 <shachaf> Is that officially part of the language semantics or only the implementation?
06:39:36 <shachaf> I guess they do a template-specialization thing, so maybe it would have to be the former...
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06:42:42 <shachaf> Presumably that's the existential thing kmc mentioned.
06:44:44 <Gracenotes> there may be benefits to universal quantification and vtables, like trading off codesize and codeperformance.
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06:46:19 <Gracenotes> although, yes, Rust is already pretty heavy on syntax for operational control...
06:51:39 <kmc> yeah, when you use a trait as a type, you end up with something like a vtable
06:51:52 <kmc> shachaf: I don't know if it's officially part of semantics
06:52:42 <kmc> anyway it's hard to compile polymorphic functions once, if the types at which they can be used vary in size and other properties
06:53:06 <kmc> Java and Haskell and such get away with it because they enforce this uniform representation where everything is a pointer to a heap object with certain stuff
06:56:15 <kmc> there's a Real World OCaml now o_O
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06:59:28 <kmc> oh and Jason Hickey is one of the authors!
07:01:18 <Gracenotes> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_cakes#Categorisation_as_cake_or_biscuit_for_VAT
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07:06:32 <kmc> that was glorious
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07:24:05 <shachaf> I should go to sleep, though, to get my sleep all fixed up.
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07:45:22 <shachaf> Hmm, enums are really treated entirely separately in the compiler.
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08:58:55 <shachaf> did you figure out any new fancy type things
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10:39:44 <oerjan> <elliott> thanks linus :| <-- did anyone suggest the compromise that he can only swear in finnish twh
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11:01:50 <oerjan> <elliott> I mentally pronounced "cache" as "cash-ay" before I knew how it's really pronounced and now I can't stop <-- i mentally pronounce it with a long a hth
11:02:21 <Taneb> I pronounce it "catchee"
11:08:15 <oerjan> a catchy pronunciation
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12:01:34 <L8D> So...Does this seem at all original? It's a semi-esoteric lang inspired by ternary operators: https://github.com/L8D/tran
12:03:36 <AnotherTest> L8D: depends... at least it's not a brainfuck equivalent
12:05:07 <AnotherTest> on the other hand... it seems a bit like "take language X and replace some symbols"
12:05:39 <AnotherTest> for most languages (definitely not all of them) the semantic of the language are what make it special, not the syntax
12:06:04 <L8D> I originally started with the idea of a javascript equivalent in which could be efficiently minimized
12:07:17 <oerjan> @tell elliott <elliott> who's the opposite of shachaf in here <-- i suggest Vorpal hth
12:07:21 <L8D> I wanted something that would be easy and fun to write in....instead of an actually useful one
12:08:04 <AnotherTest> I'd say very original languages are usually totally different (and thus not based on) any existing language
12:08:05 <L8D> I'm planning on it being a symbiotic language of js
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12:08:44 <AnotherTest> L8D: so maybe not the most original, but don't really care about that as long as you're having fun
12:10:58 <L8D> even though I don't do much javascript programming, I really like how it feels "vintage"
12:11:22 <L8D> but still will behaive like a modern language when you need it to
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12:14:07 <oerjan> @tell shachaf boolean groups are basically vector spaces over GF(2), i think. which means they're determined up to isomorphism by the cardinality of their vector basis.
12:14:49 <oerjan> @tell shachaf so, basically just xor with your chosen no. of bits, which can be transfinite.
12:22:51 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> if i'm reading this right they're all whatevertheufuck-dimensional vector spaces, but i'm probably not reading it right <-- you were reading it right hth
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13:12:53 <Jafet> My vectors have א₁ bits
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13:23:41 <metasepia> CYUL 161300Z 02005KT 15SM FEW240 27/18 A3023 RMK CI1 AC TR SLP237 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
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13:57:58 <Jafet> @oeis 6 21 107 47176870
13:58:37 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
13:59:04 <lambdabot> The simplest sequence of positive numbers: the all 1's sequence.[1,1,1,1,1,1...
13:59:19 <Jafet> That's pretty subjective
14:01:22 <boily> what could be simpler?
14:03:03 <boily> (meanwhile, http://www.theweathernetwork.com/alerts/high-alert/canada/quebec/montreal. it is stuffy, damp, humid, hot, steamy, sultry, and otherwise not fun outside.)
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14:04:28 <boily> Jafet: I think it may count as only a degenerate case.
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14:27:04 <lambdabot> Numerator of Bernoulli number B_n.[1,1,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,5,0,691,0,7,0,3617,0,...
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14:40:47 <Bike> well, as infinite sequences go, 1,1,1,... is impressively trivially computed.
14:42:50 <Jafet> > iterate ([]:) []
14:42:52 <lambdabot> [[],[[]],[[],[]],[[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[],[]],[[],[],[],[],[],...
14:43:23 <lambdabot> Expansion of Jacobi theta function theta_3(x) = Sum_{m = -infinity..infinity...
14:43:33 <Bike> see, that's hard.
14:44:20 <boily> I stand correctquenced.
14:45:30 <lambdabot> The natural numbers. Also called the whole numbers, the counting numbers or ...
14:46:23 <lambdabot> Digital sum (i.e. sum of digits) of n.[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9...
14:54:58 <lambdabot> Number of distinct primes dividing n (also called omega(n)).[0,1,1,1,1,2,1,1...
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15:08:10 <AnotherTest> I'm beginning to fear that there's something wrong with oeis...
15:10:19 <Taneb> @oeis 1, 2, 4, 8, 15
15:10:21 <lambdabot> Cake numbers: maximal number of pieces resulting from n planar cuts through ...
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16:05:19 <lambdabot> Length of shortest Golomb-like (for sums of triples) ruler with n marks.[0,1...
16:11:08 <kmc> shachaf: what do you think of the fact that in Rust you can dereference a pointer with & as well as *
16:11:12 <kmc> by using & on the LHS of a pattern match
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17:33:27 <AnotherTest> @oeis 6, 21, 107, 47176870, 7.4 × 10^36534
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18:02:10 * kmc reads about Pierre Trudeau
18:03:07 * boily senses a great disturbance in the Canadian force
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18:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, have you read enough to determine whether he exists
18:17:14 <zzo38> I have played a game called CthulhuMUD. It is very sophisticated, with a large number of skills, spells, professions, and areas available (but a small number of races). A local single-player open-source version (some things are not applicable and would not be implemented, of course), might be interesting to have; in such case, to also have permadeath and real ephemerides. Real ephemerides is what I would want such thing to have.
18:17:54 <zzo38> There are other MUDs; DoorMUD isn't quite as sophisticated though and not as interesting really. (I found all of these on X-BIT.)
18:19:26 <metasepia> In astronomy and celestial navigation, an ephemeris (plural: ephemerides; from the Greek word "diary", "journal") gives the positions of astronomical objects in the sky at a given time or times.
18:21:22 <kmc> llvm[5]: Compiling LegalizeIntegerTypes.cpp for Release+Asserts build
18:21:38 <zzo38> There are software libraries, such as Swiss Ephemeris, but I don't know that that one would be suitable in this case, since as far as I can tell it does not calculate the rotation of Pluto.
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18:26:11 <zzo38> It would be good to have the ephemerides for all the planets and dwarf planets; that way, even if there is nothing on those planets, since it is open-source someone will certainly add stuff onto those planets/dwarf planets including the newly discovered ones.
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18:38:28 <boily> do we have higher-order moons in our Solar System? like moons orbiting moons orbiting moons orbiting planets and whatnots...
18:39:30 <itsy> There's an asteroid with a moon
18:40:23 <zzo38> boily: I don't know. Maybe it is interesting to know.
18:41:49 <boily> a quick search yields country music: http://www.amazon.com/High-Moon-Order-Betse-Ellis/dp/B00CMYX3J2
18:41:58 <boily> zzo38: ↑ is that what you had in mind?
18:42:13 <shachaf> kmc: You can? What does that do?
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18:45:04 <itsy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysnomia_(moon)
18:45:10 <boily> http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-04/could-moon-have-moons
18:45:20 <AnotherTest> boily: heh, I was just going to paste that
18:45:50 <Bike_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_satellite#Satellites_of_satellites source of all knowledge
18:46:07 <boily> so rank N moons *could* exist, but they're a kind of grue. (or bleen, if you prefer.)
18:46:12 <AnotherTest> "A moon’s moon will tend to be a short-lived phenomenon." :(
18:46:26 <boily> the Universe is a sad, inconsiderate place.
18:46:56 <AnotherTest> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_list_of_lists
18:47:33 <boily> elliott: well, yes, but finland has also cute TREES.
18:47:37 <AnotherTest> I'm a bit disappointed that they don't have a list of lists of lists of lists though
18:48:34 <shachaf> That's what I get for using /last.
18:50:18 <AnotherTest> Hm. I didn't know about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disambiguation_%28disambiguation%29
18:51:21 <Bike_> an irssi command to grep your scrollback.
18:51:41 <shachaf> oeran: That's not too surprising. Self-inverse is a pretty odd property.
18:56:09 <boily> @tell oerjan shachaf is saying things to you about self-inversion, oddities, and properties.
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19:19:49 <elliott> help, I click a link to a conal blogpost on #haskell and oerjan is mentione.
19:20:45 <shachaf> well, conal is isomorphic to oerjan
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19:55:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.32171
19:59:14 <olsner> hmm, finland can't not have its own fermented fish product
20:00:46 <fizzie> I don't think we have one.
20:02:06 <fizzie> Some people eat lutefisk (which is kind of nasty too), but even that's not particularly "Finnish", I think.
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20:02:31 <boily> fizzie: I thought it was from Norway?
20:02:53 <olsner> lutfisk seems to be shared across all the nordic countries
20:02:55 <fizzie> boily: I guess it mostly is, but the other nordic countries partake.
20:03:23 <fizzie> "While some enthusiasts[1] claim the dish has been consumed since the time of the Vikings, most[who?] believe that its origins lie in the 16th-century Netherlands.[citation needed]" quality encyclopedia
20:03:54 <boily> do we even have fermented fish products here...
20:04:06 * boily goes on a quest to find Canadian Fermented Fish
20:05:01 <fizzie> The "Fermented Fish" article lists preparations with origins of {Filipino, Egypt, Ancient Roman, Iceland, Korea, Inuit, Japan, Greek, Manipur India, Thailand, Norway, Swedish, Yup'ik} only.
20:05:19 <olsner> inuit might apply to parts of canada
20:06:55 <boily> there's igunaq, but it's from walrus.
20:08:57 <fizzie> Wikipedia claims Igunaq is not explicitly walrusian.
20:09:02 <fizzie> (That was the Inuit example.)
20:10:20 <fizzie> (It does still say "other marine mammals", which makes me wonder what it's doing in the fermented fish article.)
20:10:51 <boily> another fine example of the Mysteries of the Great White North.
20:11:49 <olsner> I guess it means walri (and "other marine mammals") are also fish
20:12:46 <olsner> or they become fish when fermented?
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20:13:49 <boily> but then, the Chinese call walri «海象», which are sea elephants.
20:14:34 <olsner> "sea elephant" is just how they write "big fish"
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20:35:54 <kmc> am i justified in skipping a mailing list thread where even the first message contains the word 'bikeshedding' in the subject
20:36:28 <Bike> nothing is true and everything is permitted
20:36:35 <boily> only if you can choose the colour of the skipped thread.
20:36:45 <kmc> i think my mail client allows that yes
20:37:01 <boily> I think blue is a nice colour.
20:38:04 <kmc> http://blue.bikeshed.com/
20:38:26 <elliott> kmc: is it about rust's awful syntax
20:39:00 <kmc> here read this whole thread and tell me if it's worthwhile, tia https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-July/004804.html
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20:39:28 <olsner> you might still want to watch the thread in case entertaining pointless arguments pop up
20:39:41 <elliott> well this is advocating implicit string conversions and varargs as an alternative to presumably-unsafe printf style formatting
20:39:44 <kmc> this is Work for me though
20:39:46 <elliott> imo tell them it's all shit
20:39:57 <kmc> if I want to watch entertaining pointless arguments it'll be something fun on my own time
20:40:04 <kmc> elliott: it's a macro, not varargs
20:40:11 <kmc> like I said, did not read thread
20:40:16 <Fiora> http://violet.bikeshed.com/ I wonder how many color options this site has?
20:40:21 <kmc> but fmt!() is a macro
20:40:24 <Lumpio-> Check the source code, Fiora.
20:40:45 <olsner> before reading the thread is the best time to join the bikeshedding, "unbiased by actual information"
20:40:51 <Bike> whitesmoke looks a lot like white
20:41:04 <boily> my eyes. they hurt.
20:41:04 <kmc> whitesnake
20:41:19 <Fiora> http://mediumslateblue.bikeshed.com/
20:41:26 <Fiora> that... looks more purple than blue
20:41:48 <elliott> http://papayawhip.bikeshed.com good
20:41:51 <Bike> looks blue ot me
20:42:02 <Bike> i think you're just purple-biased
20:42:48 <Fiora> maybe my monitor isn't very good
20:42:49 <kmc> yes i like that one elliott
20:42:57 <oerjan> <elliott> help, I click a link to a conal blogpost on #haskell and oerjan is mentione. <-- wat
20:43:03 <Fiora> okay this is weird
20:43:06 <Fiora> http://violetred.bikeshed.com/ this is teal on firefox
20:43:10 <Fiora> but magenta on chrome o_O
20:43:12 <elliott> oerjan: http://conal.net/blog/posts/a-handy-generalized-filter
20:43:17 <kmc> yeah it's cyan for me in ff
20:43:19 <Bike> yeah looks magenta to me
20:43:32 <kmc> use this to defeat user agent snooping :O
20:43:38 <kmc> er spoofing
20:43:40 <olsner> aah, it's probably that thing where unrecognized names get interpreted as hex by filtering out non-hex digits
20:44:13 <kmc> olsner: sometimes i really hate the web
20:44:18 <olsner> violetred would be eed then
20:44:37 <Bike> that's an impressively bad silent failure right there.
20:44:53 <Fiora> http://evilbrainjono.net/pages/startup-or-pokemon.py oh gosh, someone linked this at work
20:45:05 <boily> kmc: the web is great. the web feeds all. the web is like jell-o that is *way* past its best before date.
20:45:21 <olsner> web is the little death that obliterates all?
20:45:24 <kmc> ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
20:45:55 <Bike> apparently Twilio is a startup :(
20:45:56 <boily> `addquote <kmc> ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
20:46:00 <HackEgo> 1074) <kmc> ah yes, like the parable of jesus feeding the masses with expired jell-o
20:46:21 <Bike> "Communications power business. Twilio powers communications."
20:46:34 <Fiora> it's like... it's like a corporate chat thing?
20:46:35 <kmc> yes they're reasonably well-known
20:46:40 <kmc> no it's an API for telephone shit
20:46:50 <kmc> you can make/receive calls, send/receive texts, etc
20:46:53 <kmc> implement fone menus
20:46:54 <Bike> Get building in minutes with your own twilio phone number.
20:47:15 <Bike> Now I have to check the other ones.
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20:47:29 <Bike> Nila is the industry leader in environmentally sustainable, high-brightness LED fixtures durable enough to meet the needs of the harshest production situations.
20:47:38 <kmc> i was kind of dismayed by how many of these i recognized (startups, not pokemon, back in my day there were only 151 pokemon, thanks a lot obama)
20:47:47 <Bike> that reminds me that i was reading the website of this company that did nothing but make fasteners and force sensors and stuff
20:47:54 <Bike> they had a few pages on stuff they'd put in mars rovers
20:47:59 <Fiora> I should know more pokemon >_< I kind of don't know a lot from gen 3 and 4 I think
20:48:32 <Bike> Habbo I knew from encyclopedia dramatica. And they say you can't learn anything from trolls
20:48:37 <boily> the pokemon that can be named is not the true pokemon.
20:48:52 <Bike> is the only true pokemon missingno.?
20:49:03 <Bike> "Explore Freebase Data" freebase is a drug term right
20:49:04 <kmc> Fiora: imo learn about mushrooms instead
20:49:15 <kmc> we're going to grow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clitocybe_nuda . they're /purple/
20:49:37 <Bike> "Freebasing is also the consumption by smoking of free base cocaine (crack cocaine) or heroin." aha
20:49:43 <Bike> is there a gameboy game about mushrooms
20:49:47 <Bike> imo that would increase their popularity
20:49:51 <shachaf> Or you could learn about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suillus_granulatus
20:50:11 <Fiora> kmc: but but can I go on a mushroom adventure and train up my mushrooms to become the mushroom master
20:50:26 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know, but there is the information to write a GameBoy game, if you want to do so.
20:50:37 <shachaf> kmc: are you a mushroom master
20:50:51 <zzo38> Fiora: I don't know all the pokemons either beyond first generation; they often complicate things a bit much
20:50:54 <boily> grilled mushrooms on the bbq...
20:51:05 <Fiora> I want my fairy type pokemon *_*
20:51:18 <boily> anyone here ever grilled any fairy?
20:51:41 <kmc> mushrooms from a fairy ring?
20:51:51 <shachaf> mushrooms form a fairy ring?
20:52:57 <kmc> lots of kinds can grow in rings, I think
20:54:19 <Bike> Fiora: a "fairy ring" what a ring of mushrooms is called
20:55:15 <Bike> so called because they look p. mysterious and people thought they might be the work of fairies
20:55:44 <boily> so if fairies can't be bbqed, can they be campfired?
20:55:49 <Fiora> so a field of mushrooms is a special type of fairy ring?
20:55:53 <Fiora> since fields are a type of ring
20:56:20 * boily slaps Bike with a fermented marine mammal
20:56:41 <olsner> aah, are those fairy rings? we call them witch rings here
20:57:32 * boily continues to ferment Bike *slosh* *slosh* *slosh* :D
20:57:44 <Bike> "omg , you totally should try trisquel in your PC you will free proud using it ... free as in freedom"
21:02:22 <tswett> Heh. There's this certain sentence that Douglas Hofstadter wrote. I remember it was along these lines:
21:02:34 <tswett> "This sentence, despite containing many nonstandard words, is still perfectly possible to comprehend."
21:03:06 <tswett> Some of the words were replaced with nonsense words. But I've forgotten the nonsense words and now all I remember is their intended meanings.
21:04:16 <fizzie> "This gubblick contains many nonslarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked [sic] from context."
21:04:38 <fizzie> (David Moser, quoted by Douglas Hofstadter in his "Metamagical Themas" column in the January 1981 Scientific American.)
21:05:22 <fizzie> (It's quoted in the "glark" entry of the Jargon File / The New Hacker's Dictionary, which is where I remember it from.)
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21:12:48 <boily> with all this talk about nonslarkish meals, I'm hungry.
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21:38:47 <oerjan> <olsner> I guess it means walri (and "other marine mammals") are also fish <-- i hope you know that's not an etymologically correct plural hth
21:47:00 <kmc> aw boily left I can't ask what kind of mushrooms they grill
21:48:29 <shachaf> kmc: As a form of protest you should use one-variant enums rather than structs whenever you don't care about memory layout.
21:49:58 <oerjan> <kmc> http://blue.bikeshed.com/ <-- ooh nice
21:51:27 <kmc> ah the printf bike shedding conversation is more interesting than i thought
21:51:35 <kmc> they point out that format strings are good for internationalization
21:52:09 <olsner> oerjan: what a silly thing to hope for
21:52:35 <kmc> ok and then there are some shitty emails
21:58:02 <kmc> shachaf: did you know rustc's name mangling is compatible with g++'s? so you can use c++filt
21:58:53 <shachaf> I've already used c++filt when trying to read rustc-generated code.
21:59:00 <shachaf> The code was still confusing.
22:01:27 <shachaf> Takes a while to get used to any compiler-thing's generated code.
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22:05:24 <kmc> also it takes a while to get used to e.g. the output of gcc when the input is the Linux kernel
22:10:25 <kmc> they do some strange things
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22:22:43 <zzo38> I think a kind of post-processor might be a useful thing to have in C, such as for making data tables in an efficient format.
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23:08:48 <Bike> "If any provision of this Agreement is, or is found to be, unenforceable under applicable law, that will not affect the enforceability of the other provisions of this Agreement. " terms of service are so weird
23:13:36 <Fiora> is that one that weird?
23:14:42 <Bike> well it's basically saying "in the event some parts of this contract can't hold"
23:15:00 <kmc> almost every contract has that
23:15:12 <Bike> really, i'd never seen it before.
23:15:40 <elliott> I like that because it means they have no reason not to just put everything they can think of in there
23:15:54 <elliott> "we'd also like your firstborn if we can get away with it but if not forget we asked"
23:16:28 <Bike> yeah when i say "weird" i don't mean like, "uncommon", so much as "wow this does not seem like something i personally would think is okay"
23:16:32 <kmc> when i went skydiving I had to sign something to the effect of I would never sue them under any circumstance BUT even if I was able to sue them somehow, damages would be capped at $x
23:16:56 <kmc> in addition to signatures they also videotaped each of us saying that we agree to x y and z
23:17:12 <Bike> i guess they must get a lot of litiggation.
23:17:28 <kmc> and they made us read a summary of a court case where somebody had sued them and lost
23:17:52 <kmc> and affirm that we had read it
23:18:07 <kmc> then I got into an airplane and jumped out of the airplane, while strapped to some other dude
23:18:20 <kmc> so all in all it was a strange day
23:18:46 <Bike> http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/why-kotakus-nerd-shaming-article-made-me-uncomfortable here is a url that exists and points to a real document
23:19:15 <Bike> kmc, well, i hope you had fun, both in the airplane jump and in the later eight month legal case
23:19:21 <Gracenotes> Terms of Service are one of those areas not tested much in courts
23:19:44 <Gracenotes> When they are, it is usually almost always in favor of users, rather than providers
23:20:16 <kmc> i think I was in more danger in the airplane going up frankly
23:22:28 <Bike> alright i'm making it time for me to post sci-fi papers again: http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.2196 "Neural Dust: An Ultrasonic, Low Power Solution for Chronic Brain-Machine Interfaces"
23:22:52 <Bike> basically the idea is they dump a few thousand micrometer-wide bots into your head to record your brain activity.
23:23:06 <Bike> this is apparently not insane?
23:27:47 <kmc> seems legit
23:28:55 <pikhq_> Seems like a simple engineering effort.
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23:29:47 <Bike> well when i say "bots" i apparently mean a CMOS with an antenna stuck to it.
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23:36:46 <Bike> oh boy, it's based on ultrasound instead of electromagnetics.
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23:37:27 <HackEgo> ggghhhujik: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:37:33 <Bike> ultrasound for power is... new to me.
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23:49:15 <kmc> that's neat
23:51:09 <Bike> the circuit is supposed to be 20 µm squared O_o
23:51:18 <Gracenotes> someone should write a CFG- or L-system-generated welcome
23:51:50 <Bike> i'm no good at electronics but i am under the impression that most ICs are rather larger
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23:52:56 <pikhq_> I was under the impression that that was a process size once upon a time.
23:52:56 <Lumpio-> You can fit hundreds of transistors side by side in 20µm
23:53:04 <Lumpio-> If all it does is transmit something simple it could be done
23:53:19 <Lumpio-> Yeah CPU processes for instance are approaching 10nm
23:53:31 <pikhq_> I did say "once upon a time". :P
23:54:16 <Lumpio-> Or well, I have no idea if it can actually be done or how it would actually work, but it doesn't sound completely implausible.
23:54:57 <Lumpio-> ICs are "large" mostly because they need enough surface area for bond wires (and if you're talking about the physical packages, those are huge for... physical reasons.)
23:55:11 <Bike> i said i'm no good at electronics! :P
23:55:25 <Bike> but yeah it's not just a transmitter, it's got to be able to figure out what neurons are doing in the middle of a brain
23:55:28 <Bike> p. noisy environ
23:55:42 <pikhq_> Bike: Not necessarily.
23:56:06 <pikhq_> It's gotta be able to emit enough information that what the neurons are doing can be figured out.
23:56:18 <Bike> i'm just echoing the paper, yo
23:56:28 <pikhq_> This probably is only doable with the little things actually doing some amount of computation, but hey.
23:58:02 <Bike> "Since the power available to the implant has a fixed upper bound (see above), the reduction of extracellular potential amplitude as the neural dust dimensions are scaled down in the presence of biological, thermal, electronic, and mechanical noise (which do not scale), causes the signal-to-noise (SNR) ratio to degrade significantly; this places heavy constraints on the CMOS front-ends for processing and extracting the signal from extremely n