←2013-07-19 2013-07-20 2013-07-21→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:00:25 <fizzie> shachaf: In C11, you can also try and equally much fail to apply _Alignof to a function. (Being the argument of sizeof, _Alignof and & is the exhaustive list of when the conversion-to-pointer doesn't happen.)
00:00:32 <olsner> hmm, so even if uintptr_t exists, you can't use it to store pointers?
00:00:38 <shachaf> fizzie: wow that's p. useless
00:01:00 <fizzie> olsner: You can use it to store any object pointer, if you go via void *.
00:01:01 <kmc> you can probably memcpy a pointer to a uintptr_t
00:01:31 <fizzie> The pointer can be larger than a uintptr_t, so I don't think so.
00:02:07 <fizzie> Also the resulting uintptr_t value could presumably be a trap representation.
00:02:21 <olsner> that sounds like a p. bad uintptr_t type
00:02:32 <fizzie> Unless that was a "can probably in real life", which is certainly true.
00:02:44 <pikhq_> You can *store* non-function pointers in a uintptr_t, it'sw just not guaranteed to have at all the same representation.
00:02:59 <pikhq_> It's merely guaranteed that you can round-trip the cast.
00:03:10 <fizzie> pikhq_: And it needs to be a void * before the conversion.
00:03:20 * Fiora googles "c pastebin that runs code", gets ideone
00:03:21 <Fiora> thank you google
00:03:38 * pikhq_ nods
00:03:53 <Fiora> http://ideone.com/RnuxoZ I am a really truly terrible awful person
00:04:00 <fizzie> "-- any valid pointer to void can be converted to this type, then converted back to pointer to void, and the result will compare equal to the original pointer --"
00:04:11 <shachaf> Fiora: did you ever see sizeof.c
00:04:14 <pikhq_> Also, in POSIX you *can* convert void* to/from function pointers.
00:04:16 <Fiora> sizeof.c?
00:04:26 <shachaf> Fiora: http://mauke.hopto.org/stuff/c/sizeof.c
00:04:38 <shachaf> the puzzle is what does that print
00:04:45 <olsner> pikhq_: aww, POSIX adding boring sanity to C again
00:04:54 <Fiora> I'd... guess... e?
00:04:58 <Fiora> oh, %d
00:05:04 <Fiora> so um.... whatever the ascii for e is
00:05:05 <pikhq_> Necessary for dlsym. :)
00:05:33 <olsner> hmm, maybe it prints 1
00:05:50 <shachaf> imo run it and see
00:06:07 <shachaf> well, olsner said it
00:06:31 <Fiora> how does that work O___O
00:06:34 <fizzie> Operator precedence: it's what's for dinner.
00:06:45 <olsner> \o/
00:06:46 <myndzi> |
00:06:46 <myndzi> /´\
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00:06:50 <fizzie> Fiora: What's the type of (0)["..."].
00:06:56 <Fiora> char?
00:07:03 <shachaf> fizzie is giving it away :'(
00:07:04 <fizzie> And the size of char?
00:07:06 <Fiora> 1
00:07:13 <Bike> i like how any time this channel talks about C it makes me want C to die and be replaced with Rust.
00:07:13 <fizzie> There y. g.
00:07:15 <Fiora> oh. this this is because of that....
00:07:19 <Bike> or. really anything else.
00:07:19 <Fiora> askdjfldfls
00:07:27 <pikhq_> Note that sizeof is the operator, not sizeof().
00:07:28 <Fiora> sizeof being a keyword and not having function semantics -_-
00:07:29 -!- carado_ has joined.
00:07:36 <shachaf> or function syntax
00:07:40 <shachaf> this is really a syntax thing
00:07:45 <pikhq_> sizeof is basically an unary operator.
00:07:47 <Fiora> synsmeanticosomethign
00:07:50 <shachaf> this is why you should write "sizeof x" and not "sizeof(x)"
00:08:06 <Fiora> >_<
00:08:17 <olsner> or (sizeof x) perhaps
00:08:26 <shachaf> (sizeof x) if needed
00:08:38 <shachaf> it's like a function application in haskell or something
00:08:48 <shachaf> the expression is "sizeof x", and you can put parentheses around it
00:09:02 <shachaf> now, for a type, you can think of it as "sizeof (T)" imo
00:09:09 <shachaf> where "(T)" is like a cast or something?? i don't know
00:09:14 <Bike> ok
00:09:58 * Fiora is kind of clueless at C really
00:10:11 <fizzie> It's like types like to have round things around them, that's why the compound-literal syntax is also (T){ initializer }.
00:10:31 <fizzie> Like crazies and padded walls, y'see.
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00:11:28 <Bike> does this C ever come up in practice, fiora
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00:11:42 <Bike> also i can't look at the .c for some reason. very mysterious.
00:11:45 <Fiora> um I don't know
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00:12:29 <shachaf> help
00:12:34 <shachaf> p. sure this is a tmux bug
00:12:38 <fizzie> A lecturer at the university told us you declare a floating-point variable called "x" in C by writing the statement "c real;".
00:12:53 <kmc> C, Fortran, what's the difference really.
00:13:01 <pikhq_> Mmmm, lies.
00:13:06 <fizzie> (He was kind of a Pascal guy at heart, I think; but it was a C course.)
00:13:27 <shachaf> elcamino real;
00:13:33 <fizzie> Uh, I mean, "x real;". It wasn't a *blatant* lie.
00:13:41 <olsner> I accidentally some BASIC code once when I was trying to teach Ada
00:13:47 <pikhq_> fizzie: Yes it is.
00:14:06 <pikhq_> fizzie: The floats are not even a subset of the reals.
00:14:32 <Bike> #define c float, #define real x, problem solved
00:14:38 <fizzie> Well, I mean, "blatant" as in "completely obvious" (if you didn't know any C).
00:15:04 <pikhq_> And somehow don't know a thing about floats.
00:15:21 <pikhq_> Note that floating point values in general are not subsets of the reals.
00:15:22 <Bike> pikhq_: well he'd hardly be alone in conflating floats and reals :/
00:15:30 <pikhq_> Bike: Even so.
00:15:45 <shachaf> ɪ ʀᴇᴀʟʟy ᴛʜɪɴᴋ yᴏᴜ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ɪɴᴠᴇꜱᴛ ɪɴ ɢᴏᴀᴛꜱ, ᴋᴍᴄ
00:15:47 <fizzie> You could know a thing about floats and still think "real" is just the name given to them in a language.
00:15:53 <Bike> yeah.
00:16:01 <pikhq_> But then the language itself would lie.
00:16:02 <pikhq_> Horribly.
00:16:13 * pikhq_ also rants against decimal float literals, so.
00:16:47 <fizzie> Now, zomplex... there's a real type for real men. Er, I mean, complex type.
00:17:06 <pikhq_> Remember kids, 0.1 is not representable as a float. :)
00:17:25 <Bike> what about a decimal float!!
00:17:26 <fizzie> Base-10 floats are perfectly legal, though.
00:17:36 <pikhq_> I'm assuming binary floats, sorry.
00:17:37 <olsner> shachaf: how much is a reasonable amount to invest in goats?
00:17:47 <shachaf> olsner: all of it hth
00:17:48 <pikhq_> Yes, if you use base 10 floats then decimal float literals are utterly reasonable.
00:18:11 <fizzie> ('zomplex' is the double-precision variant of 'complex' in some SGI things, among others.)
00:18:42 <Bike> what we need is binary float literals
00:18:43 <fizzie> (I guess 'domplex' sounded too silly?)
00:18:51 <pikhq_> Bike: Hex float literals are a thing.
00:19:14 <Bike> too complicated, 1s and 0s 101ever.
00:19:30 <fizzie> They have the exponent (of 2) in decimal, which is slightly strange, if reasonable.
00:19:31 <pikhq_> Five-ever?
00:19:54 <pikhq_> fizzie: Strange, sure, but *shrug*
00:20:00 <Bike> five ever, yes.
00:20:12 <fizzie> Is that like forever but longer?
00:20:16 <pikhq_> The point is that it's got a definite mapping to a particular float.
00:20:23 <Bike> fizzie: obviously.
00:20:40 <pikhq_> In a way that doesn't make people assume decimal fractional representations work sanely.
00:21:27 <Bike> yeah, i understand. i've read the papers on reading and writing decimal floats, they are appropriately horrifying
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00:24:00 <fizzie> Strange quirk: even if FLT_RADIX is 10, and it's representable, decimal floating-point constants don't have to yield the exact value.
00:24:15 <fizzie> (Hex floats do, if FLT_RADIX is 2.)
00:24:28 <Bike> pikhq's influence no doubt.
00:24:52 <pikhq_> fizzie: Radix of 10 but represented with a binary value would do it.
00:24:55 <Fiora> "The value is 2 on all machines we know of except the IBM 360 and derivatives. " @_@ what did the IBM 360 do?
00:25:20 <pikhq_> Fiora: Decimal floats.
00:25:28 <Fiora> "a system where FLT_RADIX is
00:25:29 <Fiora> 16 (IBM/360)"
00:25:36 <pikhq_> Wait what?
00:25:39 * Fiora flails confusedly
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00:25:43 <Fiora> http://www.mailinglistarchive.com/html/fortran@gcc.gnu.org/2006-09/msg01338.html I found this?
00:25:54 <pikhq_> I guess that's not the *craziest* possible, but...
00:25:55 <kmc> i like that "IBM 360 and derivatives" is a 50 year product line that continues to this day
00:25:56 <Fiora> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/zvm/v6r1/index.jsp?topic=/com.ibm.zvm.v610.edclv/floath.htm and this
00:26:07 <Fiora> what does it like... what does it mean to be 16?
00:26:33 <Bike> ibm 360 succeeded by the ibm one
00:26:39 <kmc> c.c
00:26:40 <Fiora> biiiiiiiike XD
00:27:06 <fizzie> My calculator does decimal floats, but there's no C on it.
00:27:15 <pikhq_> Fiora: Floats are of the form xxx * 16^yyy
00:28:37 <Fiora> is that, like, functionally different from the 2-base?
00:28:50 <Fiora> like um. why would they do it that way
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00:30:42 <kmc> fizzie: can you be sure of that
00:32:07 <fizzie> kmc: About the "no C" part? I guess not; I mean, it's already untrue in the sense that I'm sure you can get code compiled with SDCC run on it; but I'm not aware of any C that'd use the (ROM) routines for decimal floats to implement a floating-point type.
00:32:52 <olsner> Fiora: maybe it's something like in base-2 floats you can multiply/divide by two by changing the exponent, but in base-16 you can only change by a factor of 16
00:33:28 <Fiora> would it have like, the same range of representable values ?
00:34:18 <Bike> you could change the bias of the exponent, i guess
00:34:31 <fizzie> It would have a different range-vs-precision tradeoff for a particular number of bits for mantissa/exponent, at least.
00:35:40 <Fiora> I guess it'd be like a hexadecimal float or something super weird?
00:35:55 <olsner> sounds like that's exactly what it is
00:36:47 <shachaf> kmc: adjunctions are p. nifty imo
00:37:05 <Bike> it seems mildly pointless, obviously any 16 float can be converted to a 2 float by adding four to the exponent
00:39:14 <olsner> multiplying by 4, I think
00:39:19 <fizzie> Bike: ITYM multiplying by fo... rrrr.
00:40:06 <Bike> urgh, yes.
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00:43:57 <fizzie> (TI-86 floats: 14 packed BCD digits in 7 bytes, followed by a 2-byte binary-encoded exponent of 10, and one full byte of flags; so it's the same size as the "native" x87 80-bit format.)
00:44:25 <kmc> weird
00:45:32 <Gracenotes> ever since becoming employed, I have been disappearing from the world of IRC
00:45:51 <Gracenotes> I will have to do IRC as a part-time job now
00:45:57 <kmc> i ain't payin'
00:46:07 <shachaf> kmc pays attention
00:46:09 <shachaf> just like the rest of us
00:46:14 <fizzie> The exponent is also unsigned 16-bit with a bias of 0xFC00, so it has a range of -64512..1023 -- except only -999..999 are valid.
00:46:15 <Gracenotes> well, that's not my only service
00:46:17 <shachaf> kmc: adjunctions are p. nifty imo
00:46:19 <shachaf> er
00:46:21 <shachaf> unscrolled
00:46:22 <kmc> i've heard that
00:46:24 <shachaf> the only irc currency that counts
00:46:32 <Bike> fizzie: sux
00:48:28 <Fiora> fizzie: is that the same as like, TI-83 and TI-89?
00:48:28 <fizzie> Bike: They're also really slow. (Even taking into account the fact that it's all in software; the ROM code to do math on them isn't very OPTOMIZED.)
00:48:48 <Bike> i thought the ibm 360 was OPTOMIZED to hell, man :(
00:48:56 <Bike> (for the time)
00:49:35 <olsner> it might have been state of the art 50 years ago
00:49:48 <fizzie> Fiora: I'd wager a guess that the -83 at least has same floats. I don't know about -89, since it has a whole 'nother CPU in it.
00:50:55 <fizzie> (TI-8x are Z80 systems for the most part, but the TI-89 has a 68k in it.)
00:52:22 <Fiora> ahhh
00:52:57 <fizzie> The -89 is like they took the guts of the -92 but fit it in the -8x series form factor.
00:54:40 <fizzie> Also it's a crying shame they didn't stick an eZ80 in that new color TI-84 silver plus C super turbo street fighter edition.
00:56:38 <kmc> where is "super turbo street fighter edition" from?
00:56:44 <kmc> a long forgotten meme
00:56:46 <kmc> of some kind
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01:04:04 <fizzie> From the Street Fighter series of games; there was (among others) Street Fighter, Street Fighter II, Super Street Fighter II, and finally Super Street Fighter II Turbo.
01:04:44 <fizzie> (And apparently a Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix in 2008.)
01:04:54 <Bike> the Street Fighter II franchise
01:05:20 <madbr> they almost didn't rebooted it
01:05:42 <fizzie> (Also the Hyper Street Fighter II on the PS2 in 2003, apparently.)
01:05:50 <madbr> sf3 afaik was a disappointment in popularity so they gave up
01:05:51 <fizzie> They all have a subtitle after tha name, too.
01:06:58 <fizzie> (Street Fighter II: The World Warrior; Street Fighter II: Champion Edition; Street Fighter II: Hyper Fighting; Super Street Fighter II: The New Challengers; Super Street Fighter II Turbo: Grand Master Challenge.)
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01:08:56 <fizzie> Anyhow, the ridiculosity of the evolution of * -> * II -> Super * II -> Super * II Turbo made it the butt of some good-natured ribbing, I'd say.
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01:09:54 <Bike> butts don't have ribs in them.........
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01:13:57 <fizzie> In re sizeof.c from before -- int n = sizeof(0)<:"abcdefghij":>; /* even sillier */
01:14:23 <Bike> what's that do
01:14:28 <fizzie> It's the same thing.
01:14:45 <Bike> i couldn't see the original thing :<
01:14:49 <fizzie> Except with <: and :> digraphs in place of [ and ], because, I mean, really, who has a character set with [] in it, that's so baroque?
01:15:02 <fizzie> It's surprisingly 1 instead of 'e'.
01:15:05 <Bike> Oh. I didn't know C had digraphs.
01:15:08 <olsner> hmm, is mozilla a non-profit?
01:16:49 <madbr> digraphs : still in C because there's some dude from IBM in the standards panel :(
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01:17:40 <fizzie> It has six digraphs (<: :> <% %> %: %:%: standing for [ ] { } # ##) and nine trigraphs (??= ??( ??/ ??) ??' ??< ??! ??> ??- standing for # [ \ ] ^ { | } ~) and of course the digraphs are treated in a whole another translation phase and manner.
01:18:17 <fizzie> The digraphs are not replaced inside string literals or anything, they're just tokens that are aliases for other tokens.
01:18:40 <madbr> thank you ebcdick
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01:29:55 <madbr> why are there so many text encodings
01:30:07 <Bike> because there are so many texts?
01:31:53 <madbr> notepad.exe still doesn't support LF only
01:32:16 <madbr> so anything from the unix world still looks like vomit in notepad :(
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01:33:19 <Fiora> notepad++ should work though!
01:33:31 <madbr> yeah except it sucks
01:33:51 <Bike> :o
01:34:08 <Fiora> is there something else I should be using...?
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01:35:27 <madbr> fiora : I wish I nkew
01:35:30 <madbr> knew
01:35:45 <Bike> ed, obviously
01:36:11 <zzo38> madbr: The version of the MS-DOS edit program used with Windows does support LF only, though.
01:36:37 <madbr> true
01:36:59 <zzo38> But the file is save using CRLF.
01:37:11 <madbr> like, notepad++ isn't bad actually
01:37:17 <shachaf> zzo38: Any new levels in Potion of Confusing?
01:37:26 <zzo38> shachaf: No I haven't worked on that yet.
01:37:36 <madbr> but it doesn't have notepad's best feature (being lightweight and loading fast)
01:38:09 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I agree.
01:38:10 <madbr> I've been working on a language for ultrazeux
01:38:20 <Bike> maybe you could do something like emacs server for notepad++.
01:38:26 <Fiora> geez it loads in like I don't think I could even measure it
01:38:35 <zzo38> madbr: I have also work on ideas for UltraZeux too a lot!
01:38:45 <Fiora> it appears like, literally the instant I click the icon
01:39:00 <Bike> half a planck time
01:39:21 <madbr> zzo38 : I have an interesting draft...
01:40:04 <zzo38> madbr: I have a lot of ideas for UltraZeux. One is that the world file can contain more than one character set, that they are two planes, that the character height can be set per world file, that the only built-ins are empty, player, and robots and that everything else is defined in a "format file" written in Forth (including most of the Robotic commands!), have true sprite support, ...
01:40:35 <zzo38> That there are different character sets used for different purpose; robots are fixed to one but primitives can use all four, for example.
01:41:28 <zzo38> The kind of an object is a byte, although for a robot, the kind and parameter are used together so that you do not have the limit of robots as much as in MegaZeux; the limit instead then depends on the number of primitives (each kind of primitive reduces the number of robots per board by 256)
01:41:35 <madbr> zzo38 : Here's some example code I've come up with
01:41:40 <zzo38> There would then be a default format file.
01:41:40 <madbr> zzo38 : http://pastebin.com/CayQX28L
01:42:03 <zzo38> Do you have a raw link? That would be better.
01:42:49 <madbr> http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=CayQX28L
01:42:54 <madbr> :D
01:43:19 <zzo38> Those are better since it loads much faster and doesn't require to open the web browser at first.
01:44:14 <madbr> I'm aiming 2d "retro" games
01:44:36 <madbr> so I'm going for spitesets and tilesets instead of just character sets
01:44:47 <zzo38> I am too, kind of.
01:45:05 <madbr> I'm not quite decided on infinite layers yet tho
01:45:13 <zzo38> Still using many similarity to MegaZeux, although things like gems and so on are defined in the format file rather than being built-in.
01:45:42 <madbr> for gems and so on I'd use some version of "copyrobot"
01:45:57 <zzo38> That is my kind of UltraZeux and it is different than yours, but does have spritesets and tilesets
01:46:07 <zzo38> madbr: That works terribly.
01:46:09 <madbr> except it copies a robot from some extra hidden template board
01:46:24 <zzo38> Well, at least that is better than how it works in MegaZeux.
01:46:28 <madbr> and it's not a copyrobot as much as a robot that doesn't have its own code
01:46:51 <madbr> and so if you edit its code you're actually editing the code of all robots of that kind
01:47:24 <madbr> plus it would probably have "instance settings" which are just different startup settings for the local variables
01:47:55 <zzo38> I still don't like that much; I think the primitives (as well as a large number of other things) should be defined in a format file, written in Forth, and then they have a parameter. So, they don't take up as much memory as a robot or anything, and without all of the stuff like a robot has.
01:47:59 <madbr> so that you could parametrize the instances of that robot kindof like how you could set object parameters
01:48:36 <zzo38> So in other words it is simpler, but not suitable for some things. In addition, primitives would be synchronous while robots are asynchronous.
01:48:56 <madbr> I'd go for everything synchronous still
01:49:09 <zzo38> But I do also have the idea that you can have a set of programs separate from each individual robot; that still helps.
01:49:24 <madbr> multithreading is nice but for a GCS I don't think the extra speed is worth the extra complexity
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01:50:13 <zzo38> Most of the Robotic commands would be defined in the format file too, and there would be a standard format file and character sets included.
01:50:13 <madbr> you'd have some kind of execution-order "z" variable per robot
01:50:29 <madbr> on each frame it sorts the robots per z and executes them in that order
01:50:59 <madbr> I'd go for just C++ style functions instead of redefinable commands
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01:51:28 <madbr> and multiple "threads" per robot
01:51:38 <madbr> mainly to deal with animation and display
01:52:03 <zzo38> Well, that is another way, but I don't really like that way much. I happen to like the way that MegaZeux is working mostly, although some things could be changed; each robot would have only one thread, not multiple.
01:53:08 <madbr> like, in the example code I've pasted, you can see 2 threads (::main, ::invinco) and a function (:flip())
01:53:32 <madbr> the ::invinco thread deals only with invincibility after getting hit
01:53:49 <madbr> and implements blinking
01:54:13 <madbr> plus there would be an ::anim thread for doing animations
01:54:29 <zzo38> Each primitive would have associated some attributes and some events; some attributes are built-in while others can be user-defined (not al of MegaZeux's attributes are built-in). There are also some parameters of the kind such as dialog number (although these are defined in the format file), character and font number, color setting, and how to decide by the parameter and other things to change the character/color (if applicable).
01:54:37 <madbr> and a ::display thread that would normally have standard sprite display code, but you can override it
01:54:39 <zzo38> I had a bitfield designed which would do these things.
01:55:25 <madbr> how would you deal with pixel scrolling?
01:55:29 <zzo38> I happen to like the model used in MegaZeux (and ZZT) where a robot is basically just a script of commands with asynchronous events, and that these commands can be boxes of text opened up.
01:55:57 <madbr> megazeux is kindof synchronous
01:56:42 <madbr> multi-object simpultaneous synchronous :D
01:57:34 <zzo38> madbr: Pixel scrolling can still be a command; to move sprites by pixel by pixel, you can place sprites on the sprite layer in the editor or dynamically, and then those can be robots too, or primitive sprites (although they would need to be programmed differently than primitive tiles).
01:58:20 <zzo38> To scroll the screen by pixel it can be a built-in registers, which can be affected by writing into it by Forth and the format file can provide a command to Robotic which can do this or so on, or the format file can make it automatically scroll the window instead, or whatever
01:58:39 <madbr> your design is a kind of mzx 3 right? :D
01:58:49 <madbr> like, it extends megazeux?
01:59:24 <zzo38> madbr: Kind of, although many things are gotten rid of and completely rewritten, so things are defined in the format file instead of built-in, allowing many new things to be done.
01:59:51 <zzo38> It isn't compatible with any other MegaZeux, though, since it is an entirely new system, just with a few things from MegaZeux (and ZZT).
02:00:35 <madbr> also I'd use 32bit floats as default variable type :D
02:00:42 <kmc> there are a lot of text encodings because making a single text encoding that works for all text is incredibly hard, not to mention an organizational and political nightmare
02:00:47 <zzo38> I would use 32-bit integers instead.
02:01:52 <madbr> like, I'm focusing on sprite movement
02:01:57 <zzo38> So the screen model has three layers, the tile layer, sprite layer, and dialog layer. The board has different layers though; the under layer, normal layer, overlay layer, and sprite layer.
02:01:58 <madbr> and that benefits from floats
02:02:14 <madbr> since you can have a velocity of 0.2 pixels per frame
02:02:32 <zzo38> Well, there would still be floats, but integers are default at least in Forth.
02:02:51 <madbr> I'd probably just not even have integers
02:02:52 <Bike> .2 pixels isn't a very good quality to store in a float `-`
02:02:58 <Bike> quantity*
02:03:10 <madbr> bike : .2 pixels per frame
02:03:29 <madbr> so after 60 frames that becomes 12 pixels :D
02:03:33 <Bike> I meant, it can't even be represented in binary floating point.
02:03:40 <madbr> true
02:03:45 <madbr> almost 12 pixels then :D
02:03:50 <Bike> So it would be more like 11.998198117.
02:03:54 <Bike> pretty good number of pixels
02:04:53 <zzo38> Many things are still built-in for speed and simplicity but can still be customized; for example, there is still the board window, status window, message window, etc although all of them can be customized in a large number of ways by the format file (and it can expose some of its parameters to the editor and/or Robotic programs).
02:05:01 <Bike> you could pick a "planck length" fraction of pixels and then store velocities/positions/whatever as multiples of that (as integers).
02:05:30 <Bike> this is a good plan because it involves "planck".
02:05:56 <madbr> that's what SNES games did
02:06:02 <madbr> just use fixed point everywhere
02:06:04 <Jafet> Or you can use fixed-point arithmetic to take advantage of fixed-point theorems
02:06:17 <madbr> I'm a fan of floating point though :D
02:06:26 <madbr> It's fast, it's useful, I love it :3
02:06:34 <Bike> jerk
02:06:36 <zzo38> I am not trying to make the system for game with large number of collisionn sprites, and is mainly I am making the game which mainly uses tiles; for this and other reason, integers are default.
02:07:26 <zzo38> Also, world files would be compressed.
02:07:51 <madbr> I'm going with json data for world files
02:07:58 <madbr> with boards on different files
02:08:08 <Bike> representing numbers as polynomials: good idea y/y
02:08:14 <zzo38> I am going with binary.
02:08:25 <madbr> so that it merges on SVN and you can easily do a game in team :D
02:08:52 <zzo38> madbr: Your idea can work, but it is really not like Zeux/MegaZeux/UltraZeux at all so it shouldn't be called like that either
02:09:22 <madbr> It's kindof stealing the best ideas from megazeux but targetting SNES style tiled games yeah
02:09:42 <madbr> especially the platform/rpg/adventure/shmup quatuor
02:10:34 <zzo38> madbr: Then if you still want to call it Zeux, perhaps "SuperZeux" is better? Since, it is like SuperNES and MegaZeux.
02:11:06 <madbr> perhaps
02:11:11 <zzo38> Bike: In some cases. I have once written a set of functions for dealing with polynomials of a single variable in Visual Basic for Applications.
02:11:38 <madbr> the working title ATM is "CompoWinner" :D
02:11:44 <zzo38> But most recently these days I am doing things related to Z-machine.
02:11:56 <zzo38> madbr: Well, I suppose it is good enough for a codename.
02:12:17 <madbr> also targetting OpenGL output for gfx
02:13:46 <zzo38> I want to try to write a intermediate language representation for Z-machine, so that I can write a compiler. (I have already written two Z-machine interpreters and a Z-machine assembler.)
02:14:42 <madbr> and also I want to make the language compilable
02:14:58 <madbr> so no dynamic typing, no garbage collection...
02:15:52 <zzo38> madbr: What do you compile into? LLVM? SNES?
02:16:00 <madbr> not SNES
02:16:25 <madbr> I'd probably have to use integer for that kind of platform :D
02:16:45 <zzo38> Do you want to compile into LLVM, or into C, or C++, or what?
02:16:54 <madbr> not decided yet
02:17:04 <madbr> but LLVM would definitively make sense
02:17:18 <madbr> and C++ too
02:17:41 <madbr> ("output a C++, compile it and put it on the appstore!")
02:19:59 <madbr> still not sure how I'd deal with slopes either
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02:37:09 <Bike_> this reminds me of zzo, somehow http://sprunge.us/EdJi
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02:41:04 <madbr> solitaire speedrun
02:42:31 <Bike> only for the hardest of the core
02:52:24 <nooodl> oh geez i missed exciting megazeux conversation
02:53:53 <nooodl> imo if you're going to make "something like megazeux" don't make the same mistake megazeux made and invent your own dumb language
02:53:57 <nooodl> just use lua or whatever jeez
02:54:31 <madbr> yeah perhaps
02:54:51 <madbr> tho I'm not sure anything is really adapted
02:55:46 <madbr> definitively not sold on dynamic typing
02:56:36 <madbr> also the lua coroutine system would have to be wrapped
02:56:45 <madbr> and 1 based arrays rub me the wrong way
02:56:56 <nooodl> http://www.digitalmzx.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647 pretty excellent
02:58:00 <nooodl> i don't know why people complain about 1 based arrays :(
02:59:11 <madbr> it breaks 2d addressing
03:00:21 <nooodl> you can easily just use 0-indexed tables for that
03:00:47 <madbr> but that breaks the "number of things in this array" operator no?
03:01:16 <nooodl> it does, but would that even make sense when 2d addressing stuff
03:03:01 <nooodl> you could have #t be the height and #t[1] be the width of your 2d thing (if it were 1-indexed) but it's pretty hackish
03:03:48 <madbr> also begin/end
03:23:30 <Bike> http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ#flaws-in-mainstream-science-and-psychology anyone ever get the feeling we're doomed
03:24:08 <shachaf> #haskell is the worst channel
03:26:26 <Gracenotes> I don't think it's the worst
03:26:35 <Gracenotes> how about ##c?
03:27:46 <kmc> Bike: only every day
03:29:16 <kmc> nooodl, madbr: no use scheme
03:29:58 <Gracenotes> science still progresses. the rate at which it progresses is a sociological problem.
03:30:14 <Bike> what about all these other problems
03:33:22 <Gracenotes> people have vested interests and this introduces cognitive biases, and it turns out that hard problems are hard
03:35:03 <Gracenotes> bad research being done and published is a problem that may slow down some areas of a research to a crawl, but it's not dead yet, so to speak.
03:39:01 <Gracenotes> I don't think policy-makers with economic investment have any interest in the rate of actual progress.
03:39:15 <Gracenotes> So, yeah, sociological problem. Why not.
03:39:52 <Bike> well, i mean, «Young’s 2008 Everything is Dangerous remarks that 80-90% of epidemiology’s claims do not replicate (eg. the NIH ran 20 randomized-controlled-trials of claims, and only 1 replicated)»
03:41:05 <madbr> kmc : what sort of features does schemes that are useful for video games?
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03:41:20 <madbr> *kmc : what sort of features does scheme have that are useful for video games?
03:43:21 <Gracenotes> Bike: so science is running >20x slower than it could be
03:43:40 <kmc> probably none
03:43:48 <kmc> other than just being a good language
03:43:51 <Bike> that is a way to characterize it but i'm not sure how good a characterization it is
03:44:18 <Gracenotes> It reminds me of software engineering. Rush to the finish line and you'll end up rewriting everything a few times.
03:44:51 <Gracenotes> Plan it out carefully and intentionally from the beginning, make progress faster in the long term.
03:55:06 <madbr> science is hard kids
03:57:31 <Bike> basically like, if bad reproducability due to the way journals work, and stuff like that, is "sociological", you might as well call a linux bug "sociological" because with a better society it wouldn't have arisen?
04:02:16 <Sgeo> https://keen.io/blog/46856249197/keen-io-releases-api-for-dev-null
04:03:05 * Sgeo wonders if it actually writes to /dev/null or if it just ignores it
04:03:34 <Bike> co-author of The Stringularity
04:03:46 <Gracenotes> It is a bit tautological to say that problems are sociological problems. They involve humans.
04:04:15 <Gracenotes> Nonetheless, some people don't think of science, math, etc. as fundamentally sociological processes.
04:04:21 <Bike> Sgeo: https://api.keen.io/dev/null
04:05:04 <Bike> well, they are, but again so is software development, which doesn't stop people from quite reasonably describing problems in specific non-sociological ways usefully.
04:06:34 <Bike> like, people putting system("PAUSE") in their scripts is a sociological problem in that the society hasn't informed them that they shouldn't, but it's also a problem in that like... you shouldn't do that.
04:06:38 <Bike> Same for dumb p<.05?
04:06:48 <madbr> "state doesn’t scale" hahahahahaha
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04:13:52 <kmc> why shouldn't i do that
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04:14:10 <Bike> i dunno, people complain about it.
04:14:52 <Bike> insert your own actual problem if you want
04:15:20 <kmc> PHP is a sociological problem
04:18:28 <Bike> PHP is making web development run >20x slower than it could be
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04:32:33 <kmc> dunno about that
04:33:24 <kmc> i think development in PHP is pretty rapid
04:34:46 <kmc> until you crash & explode
04:36:17 <kallisti> I guess haskell in comparison would be something like continental drift.
04:41:20 <Bike> continental motion is very respectable.
04:45:29 <Bike> not like those nasty fast car things.
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04:57:18 <Gracenotes> software engineering is communication between software engineers
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05:08:45 <shachaf> maybe i should add my /bin/ls quote to the faq!!
05:09:32 <zzo38> Is true that PHP isn't very good. There are other programming languages such as C. I might rewrite some of these program in C, at some time, to make them faster.
05:09:50 <Bike> really market that shachaf brand.
05:10:03 <shachaf> Bike: totally, man
05:10:08 <shachaf> i mean, bicycle
05:10:10 <shachaf> totally, bicycle
05:10:28 <Bike> smooth
05:13:35 <zzo38> Some people have added Lua into MegaZeux, but really it isn't necessary, and the built-in Robotic is more than enough, and works better for some of the kind of things anyways.
05:14:35 <zzo38> That is, such as switching between states and displaying menus of options, mainly.
05:17:19 <zzo38> General-purpose programming language don't really work well for that. I have added support for Forth, although that is in a separate file and runs differently; it is executed according to events it defines, and in the editor, etc. You would still use Robotic codes too, despite this.
05:32:17 <zzo38> shachaf: What is your /bin/ls quote?
05:32:33 <Bike> `quote IO
05:32:35 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 26) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. \ 28) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quot
05:32:39 <Bike> `quote bin/ls
05:32:40 <HackEgo> No output.
05:32:48 <Bike> @quote bin/ls
05:32:48 <lambdabot> shachaf says: getLine :: IO String contains a String in the same way that /bin/ls contains a list of files
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06:10:20 <Sgeo> I am using 8.9GB of memory right now
06:10:38 <Sgeo> So whoever thinks that 8GB ought to be enough for anyone was clearly mistaken
06:15:35 <zzo38> O no I played this game and now my (character's) head is broken
06:17:40 <Bike> http://i.imgur.com/hAK5IsX.gif here is what concrete does when you put a lot of weight on it.
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07:50:51 <fizzie> Sgeo: Is that figure without the file caches and stuff?
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09:17:30 <fizzie> Szczecin? Oh, Poland, you and your city names...
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09:31:40 <shachaf> ion: What are some good Haskell exercises?
09:31:55 <ion> shachaf: FixMuNu? :-P
09:32:02 <shachaf> Yes, that's a good one.
09:32:18 <ion> Bazaar
09:32:22 <ion> Curry-Howard
09:32:28 <shachaf> And the whole Yoneda business is good -- I think I gave you those exercises too once?
09:32:30 <ion> I’m just listing things i have done (and found interesting)
09:32:39 <ion> There was talk about it but i never got started with that.
09:32:39 <shachaf> Hmm, Bazaar is good, I suppose. FunList etc.
09:32:44 <shachaf> Curry-Howard what?
09:34:44 <shachaf> Maybe there's a good set of exercises for Codensity etc.
09:34:51 <shachaf> But I don't think ezyang's version really works that well.
09:34:55 <ion> I picked misc. logical expressions, some valid and some invalid, converted them to Haskell types and wrote “proofs” for them as Haskell expressions or convinced myself one can’t be written.
09:35:05 <shachaf> Ah, sure.
09:35:38 <shachaf> Hmm, and LEM<->callCC/etc. is probably a good one.
09:38:05 <ion> Sounds interesting. Are you going to post these exercies somewhere? I’d like to take a look.
09:38:34 <shachaf> Which?
09:38:57 <ion> Well, everything i haven’t done yet. Yoneda, Codensity, LEM/callCC
09:39:20 <shachaf> Hmm, didn't you do the Yoneda thing?
09:39:43 <ion> An interactive tutorial with lecture segments an editor/interpreter/checker for exercises would be cool.
09:39:47 <ion> and
09:41:02 <shachaf> Oh, that "and" is correcting the previous line.
09:41:05 * shachaf was waiting.
09:41:25 <shachaf> ion: Pretend you had: callCC :: ((a -> b) -> a) -> a (figure out why that type makes sense for callCC, I guess). Write: lem :: Either (Not a) a
09:42:29 <ion> I remember doing some figuring-out-Yoneda, but i should do more. I don’t remember much more than that one of Yoneda/CoYoneda was like a partially applied fmap.
09:55:16 <shachaf> kmc: <#haskell> My problem with Python et al is that I know enough to understand that its not "real" programming and that is causing me to baulk.
09:55:28 <shachaf> Admittedly this isn't a regular, just a, uh, someone.
10:11:07 <Jafet> Let me tell you a story about a real programmer
10:11:37 <olsner> shachaf: you should start a shit#haskellsays twitter/tumblr/thing
10:12:34 <Jafet> I think there's an irc channel for that
10:18:14 <ion> shit#shit#haskellsayssays
10:21:20 <FreeFull> Jafet: Mel?
10:22:03 <shachaf> I never melatonin I didn't like.
10:23:57 <ion> shachaf: Can you please try to follow my finger with your eye? http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3051#comic
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14:32:01 <fizzie> ~metar ZBAA
14:32:13 <fizzie> Oh no. :/
14:34:41 <olsner> `quote metar
14:34:47 <HackEgo> 996) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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14:35:58 <olsner> I think that's some kind of warning about the effects of metar
14:36:44 <fizzie> A friend's flying to ZBAA about now, was just curious.
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14:58:00 <olsner> looks like it's "201430Z 17003MPS 140V200 5000 BR NSC 27/23 Q1004 NOSIG" btw
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15:32:27 <ion> Prolog [SFM] http://youtu.be/w1j0KEsF6JU
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15:38:41 <Sgeo> ion, lies! That's not Prolog at all!
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15:40:09 <Sgeo> That's it, I'm switching to Quassel
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16:26:29 <zzo38> Do you know what "a plate of viinerrine" is?
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16:29:46 <VorpalPhone> Hi
16:48:51 <olsner> zzo38: http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Viinerine ?
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16:51:03 <zzo38> olsner: Ah, OK
16:52:43 <zzo38> In this game I was playing I found it in Pluto, though, together with some other foods I don't understand, although some are ordinary foods such as coffee, orange juice, and bundle of fruits and vegetables.
16:53:56 <zzo38> Maybe they get the foods from various other places?
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16:58:16 <zzo38> I would think other places are really far away, though.
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17:23:55 <kmc> shachaf: http://www.burritophile.com/directory.php?state=CA&city=San+Francisco&sort=high
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19:04:17 <Taneb> Well, my Scandinavia and the Worl's Finland cosplay is ALMOST COMPLETE
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19:15:11 <fizzie> Taneb: "y" no pics?
19:15:30 <Taneb> Because I have not attached the blue ribbon to my white shirt
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19:45:11 <AnotherTest> zzo38: I think you're the right person to ask: What gopherd do you use?
19:45:58 <zzo38> AnotherTest: One I wrote by myself. It is a prefix-based gopher server.
19:46:57 <AnotherTest> Is the source code available somewhere?
19:47:35 <AnotherTest> I've only found pygopherd and bucktooth so far, so I'm interested in other options
19:48:12 <zzo38> It is written in BASIC, so it isn't very good. I have once written one in C too, although I don't have it at this time.
19:50:04 <AnotherTest> Alright, thanks anyway
19:51:05 <zzo38> I happen to prefer prefix-based.
19:51:41 <shachaf> remember Fable (1996 video game)
19:51:44 <shachaf> ?
19:52:02 <olsner> what does it mean for a gopher server to be prefix-based?
19:52:29 <zzo38> olsner: The configuration is made by the list of prefixes of the selector strings, to select the files.
20:03:47 <ion> http://i.imgur.com/GOpW5zo.png
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20:11:25 <oerjan> wtf tmux was already running for hours...
20:12:17 <oerjan> i started it with tmux new pine hours ago but my guess is it _still_ started a session with all my usual stuff...
20:13:00 <fizzie> ion: One hopes that game has a Free license.
20:13:10 <oerjan> and sessions don't tell about each other's existence :(
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20:40:27 <shachaf> kmc: at 32 oz. each, that's almost 1.3 pecks!!
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20:42:11 <Taneb> Why am I always really sleepy on the one day a week I don't need to worry about having an early morning tomorrow?
20:42:31 <shachaf> Taneb: every morning is early hth
20:42:35 <Bike> shamanism
20:42:55 <Taneb> shachaf, Sunday mornings happen three hours later than other mornings
20:43:07 <shachaf> ^rot13 shaman
20:43:15 <shachaf> fungot?????
20:43:22 <shachaf> `run ls bin/*13*
20:43:25 <HackEgo> bin/r13 \ bin/rot13 \ bin/welcome13
20:43:30 <shachaf> `r13 shaman
20:43:37 <shachaf> help
20:43:42 <shachaf> `run cat bin/r13
20:43:43 <HackEgo> tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
20:43:49 <elliott> you made r13.
20:43:50 <Bike> lol
20:43:50 <shachaf> `run cat bin/rot13
20:43:52 <HackEgo> echo "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
20:43:54 <elliott> because you didn't like how rot13 did what you want here
20:44:00 <HackEgo> No output.
20:44:02 <shachaf> `rot13 shaman
20:44:03 <HackEgo> funzna
20:44:10 <shachaf> `welcome13 Bike
20:44:12 <HackEgo> Ovxr: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
20:44:16 <Bike> imo, fantastic.
20:44:58 <Taneb> `welcome13 Inaro
20:45:00 <HackEgo> Vaneb: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
20:45:06 <Taneb> Bah, so close
20:45:15 <Taneb> `welcome13 Gnaro
20:45:17 <HackEgo> Taneb: Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: uggc://rfbynatf.bet/jvxv/Znva_Cntr. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
20:45:28 <Taneb> Huh
20:45:32 <shachaf> @@ @let rot13 = @where rot13
20:45:33 <lambdabot> Defined.
20:45:42 <shachaf> > (rot13 &&& reverse) "gnat"
20:45:45 <lambdabot> ("tang","tang")
20:45:56 <Taneb> Taneb is a rot13 anagram for organ
20:45:57 <shachaf> > (rot13 &&& reverse) "ravine" -- best word
20:46:01 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
20:46:04 <Bike> yes
20:46:08 <shachaf> "2 good 4 lambdabot"
20:49:55 <ion> "2 lambdabots 1 shachaf"
20:50:02 <Bike> ew
21:00:50 <Taneb> Two Bikes one Bike
21:00:55 <Taneb> Also known as Three Bikes
21:04:26 <kmc> hike
21:04:33 <Bike> himc
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22:50:27 <zzo38> Does it not work because of the comment?
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23:19:59 <SirCmpwn> completely off topic and spammy:
23:20:06 <SirCmpwn> I need as many souls as I can get to help with a load test in #gifquick
23:20:11 <SirCmpwn> I'd be very grateful if you helped out
23:20:17 <SirCmpwn> /offtopic
23:20:21 <Bike> i don't have any of those
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23:34:57 <oerjan> sorry, i have just one, and it's out of order
23:37:22 <shachaf> souls are a measure of the value of real estate, right?
23:37:46 <kmc> only in san francsico (the joke is that housing in san francisco is very expensive)
23:39:43 <shachaf> kmc: oh no did you sell your soul
23:39:46 <kmc> no
23:39:54 <shachaf> do you have a soul
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