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14:37:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: recursion: not found
14:37:21 <HackEgo> cat: cat: No such file or directory
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14:38:29 <boily> Roujo: t'es soit Linteau, Mousehunt, Rouillard ou Vermette.
14:38:39 <Roujo> Regarde mon nom et guesse =P
14:39:01 <boily> eh, pas de ma faute! c'est dans la liste!
14:39:48 <Roujo> Looks like Cloj made an alternate account when he was banned from Mousehunt =P
14:43:22 <Roujo> I figured that there couldn't be THAT many Boilys with a passion for boardgames =P
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14:47:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: netsplit: not found
14:57:39 <Roujo> `relcome Serendipity
14:57:42 <HackEgo> Serendipity: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:14:37 <nooodl> boily: Roujo: so is this the new hexham
15:15:44 <Roujo> nooodl: I don't know. What *was* hexham - I haven't yet been privy to that information
15:16:32 <nooodl> two #esoteric members (Taneb and elliott) turned out to live in the same 10000-people town
15:16:36 -!- yorick has joined.
15:16:44 <Phantom_Hoover> elliott and Taneb are both from there and arrived here completely independently
15:16:54 <Taneb> We haven't even met
15:16:54 <Roujo> Nah, there are like 1 or 2 million people here
15:17:09 <Roujo> Aren't you forbidden from meeting, though?
15:17:45 <Bike> > 1000000 / 7000000000
15:17:52 <Bike> "so, really, what are the chances!"
15:18:33 <Roujo> Having two Montrealers here is more likely, BUT
15:18:52 <Roujo> boily is the brother of one of my friends
15:19:02 <Roujo> So... I don't know if *that* evens out the odds
15:19:06 <Roujo> "Evening the odds"
15:19:15 <Roujo> That's an odd thing to say =P
15:20:05 <Taneb> Well, it is an odd evening
15:20:14 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've got bad news
15:20:32 <Taneb> At the end of September/beginning of October I'm leaving Hexham
15:20:50 <Bike> will you be allowed to meet elliott then
15:21:14 <Taneb> I am moving to York where I shall be attending university
15:22:06 <Taneb> Since about the same time Birmingham and Loughborough were
15:22:31 <Taneb> It's in the midlands
15:22:43 <Bike> sounds too british to be real imo
15:22:48 <Bike> good job not choosing it
15:22:54 <Phantom_Hoover> you ruined the dream of the midlands as a new centre of esolanging
15:23:05 <Taneb> I decided that there were already too many esolangers in the West Midlands and not enough in Yorkshire
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15:24:16 <Taneb> btw, Loughborough is totally pronounced "Loobaroo". If anyone says anything else, they are wrong.
15:29:09 <Jafet> Further more increasingly
15:32:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, shh don't tell them
15:42:43 <fizzie> Are the people who live there called "Loobies," then?
15:50:37 -!- asie has joined.
15:56:29 <boily> back from a very enterprisey meeting.
15:57:02 <Bike> did you leverage enough paradigms
15:57:16 <boily> no, but we're going to monetize synergy.
15:57:42 <boily> (seriously. two clients have very similar aims, so they're going to split the bill between themselves and receive de same product.)
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16:00:56 <AnotherTest> do you mean: we're going to monetize the thing called synergy or
16:04:06 <Roujo> The company I work for is called iSynergy
16:04:12 <Roujo> Take from that what you will
16:04:46 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
16:09:18 <Roujo> But Roujo's friend's brother = boily
16:11:12 <Bike> boily: haha nice
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16:19:53 <AnotherTest> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at?
16:21:18 <Roujo> Sure, let's go with that
16:22:10 -!- asie has joined.
16:23:43 <Roujo> Pretty ambiguously
16:23:49 <Roujo> Although I'm not sure
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16:58:17 <boily> ambiguity is good, and highly regarded in this channel.
16:59:01 <boily> `learn boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that.
17:00:45 <boily> I think the brother pointer indirection is a little bit off, but for `? that'll do.
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17:02:31 <tswett> macro (->) :: [d, ~f |- a -> Done] => [e, f |- b] => [d, e |- a -> b]
17:03:51 <Bike> http://www.altmetric.com/details.php?domain=www.cell.com&citation_id=997561 huh, altmetric is a weird thing
17:03:59 -!- oklopol has joined.
17:04:41 <tswett> "The macro '->' is used with an expression that has type 'a -> Done' in context 'd, ~f' and an expression that has type 'b' in context 'e, f' to form an expression that has type 'a -> b' in context 'd, e'."
17:05:13 <Roujo> assert(boily->brother->brother == Roujo)
17:05:37 <Roujo> git commit sepukku
17:05:38 <Bike> wait's and see's
17:06:47 <tswett> "Macro" is a bit of a misnomer here, since -> doesn't expand to anything.
17:06:54 -!- ^v has joined.
17:07:07 <zzo38> Maybe it doesn't have to be such a simple kind of macro though?
17:07:23 <tswett> But it has a macrotype signature.
17:07:30 <tswett> Right, you could define actual macros along these lines.
17:09:13 <tswett> macro myLet :: [~d |- a -> Done] => [e |- a] => [d |- b] => [e |- b]
17:09:18 -!- nortti has changed nick to hjdicks.
17:09:36 <tswett> myLet \x 5 (x + 3) -- evaluates to 8
17:10:02 <tswett> I guess the definition would just be this: myLet a b c = (a -> c) b
17:10:16 -!- hjdicks has changed nick to nortti.
17:10:28 <Bike> why does that make sense to me.
17:10:38 <tswett> It's kind of supposed to.
17:11:00 <Bike> well the type still doesn't
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17:14:08 <boily> Roujo: uhm. I think it's assert(boily->brother->friend == Roujo).
17:14:41 <Bike> boily: are you seriously disputing `?
17:14:57 <Bike> boily: you are sick. sick
17:15:37 <boily> it is a serious matter, of capital international importance.
17:15:58 <Bike> '`?' has never been wrong before
17:16:13 <quintopia> less matter, more phase transition of matter
17:16:28 <boily> Bike: stop being like me. it's disturbing.
17:17:01 <HackEgo> See `? for further details.
17:17:05 <boily> `run echo "HackEgo is always right" >wisdom/right
17:17:09 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
17:17:17 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:17:23 <HackEgo> bash: freedom: command not found
17:17:33 <tswett> `? hey HackEgo do something that shows that you know what you're talking about
17:17:35 <HackEgo> hey HackEgo do something that shows that you know what you're talking about? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:17:39 <Roujo> `run touch wisdom/right
17:18:22 <Roujo> `run cat dog wisdom/right
17:18:28 <Roujo> `run cat dog > wisdom/right
17:18:54 <HackEgo> bash: forkbomb.sh: command not found
17:19:01 <tswett> `learn red A synonym of "five".
17:19:28 <Roujo> On a scale of "lol" to "ban", how encouraged is bot abuse?
17:19:38 <tswett> Roujo: "lol", I think.
17:19:40 <boily> tswett: red, as in the mahjong tiles?
17:19:54 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `run': No such file or directory
17:20:03 <boily> `run chmod -x bin/run
17:20:05 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `bin/run': No such file or directory
17:20:12 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:20:24 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
17:20:27 <tswett> run just isn't a command.
17:20:44 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fueue.c \ ul.emm
17:20:46 * boily dons a pair of sunglasses to shield himself from Roujo's sudden illumination
17:21:11 <HackEgo> cat: god/god: Not a directory
17:21:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.30459 \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/fd: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/fdinfo: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/ns: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory /proc/1/task/1/fd: Permission denied \ ls: cannot open directory
17:21:40 <HackEgo> bash: god: command not found
17:21:47 <Roujo> Oh, we can't edit the source from inside it, right?
17:22:03 <HackEgo> bash: skynet: command not found
17:22:09 <tswett> Roujo: the source code of the bot engine thing? Yeah, pretty sure no.
17:22:19 <Roujo> That would be nice =P
17:22:38 <kmc> the software is called UMLBox and it's open source, but you can't edit the copy that powers HackEgo
17:22:52 <Roujo> Imagine if you could, though. From HackEgo itself.
17:23:00 <Roujo> What could possibly go wrong
17:23:25 <tswett> So yeah. HackEgo has a lot of files.
17:23:42 <Roujo> `run echo Woof > dog
17:23:43 <fizzie> fungot can be edited from the inside, but only by its master.
17:23:43 <fungot> fizzie:, so i'd be happy to help an fnord archive). we'll know that's our memory...... calling...... that thing's not human... :) apparently i was wrong a while ago
17:23:50 <HackEgo> rootfs on / type rootfs (rw) \ none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sb
17:23:56 <fizzie> I've done a couple of "live" bugfixes.
17:24:02 <fizzie> Even managed to not mess up once.
17:24:31 <Roujo> fizzie: Nice stuff =)
17:24:48 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 2 \ 275 \ 279 \ 280 \ 281 \ 282 \ 283 \ 284 \ 285 \ 286 \ 3 \ 4 \ 45 \ 47 \ 5 \ 6 \ 64 \ 7 \ 70 \ 71 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kp
17:24:51 <boily> speaking of masters, I bought the first box of Tanto Cuore this weekend. yes, I am ashamed of myself.
17:25:08 <fizzie> It's not really be design, it's just that it has a raw-code execution command, and Befunge is so self-modificatory.
17:25:14 <Roujo> Oli would be proud =P
17:27:08 <fizzie> Oh, ^code uses SUBR? I didn't remember that.
17:27:11 <tswett> `cat /proc/285/cmdline
17:27:12 <fizzie> I guess it was easier.
17:27:13 <boily> Roujo: I also scored myself the travel version of Hive with bonus pieces (an excellent strategy game), and a box of The Price is Right (free giveaway that is going to end up at tonight's Douteux auction).
17:27:32 <tswett> Mind if I keep running that command over and over until it yields something different?
17:27:33 <Roujo> I'm not really into board games, though
17:27:33 <tswett> `cat /proc/285/cmdline
17:27:36 <tswett> `cat /proc/285/cmdline
17:27:41 <Roujo> So I have no idea what you're talking about
17:27:53 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/285: Is a directory
17:27:58 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/285/*: No such file or directory
17:28:00 <tswett> `sed /proc/285/cmdline
17:28:01 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: unknown command: `2'
17:28:08 <boily> Roujo: there's a first time to everything! it's never too late or early to succumb to the glorious temptation of boardgaming :D
17:28:13 <tswett> `run sed < /proc/285/cmdline
17:28:14 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
17:28:29 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
17:28:29 <Gregor> Just what the heck are you trying to accomplish here ._o
17:28:54 <tswett> Gregor: me? I'm trying to predict what process our IRC commands run as.
17:29:12 <tswett> It looks like maybe it's always process 285 for some reason.
17:29:14 <Roujo> `run sed /proc/285/cmdline s/sed/des/g > dog
17:29:18 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 7: unknown command: `2'
17:29:29 <Gregor> tswett: There's no randomness in it, so I'm not sure why it would be inconsistent.
17:29:47 <Gregor> Evidently the setup runs exactly 282 tasks.
17:29:47 <fizzie> (I suppose whatever you run under it will be 285.)
17:30:04 <tswett> `run sed 's///' < /proc/285/cmdline
17:30:05 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 0: no previous regular expression
17:30:15 <Roujo> `run echo echo run > run
17:30:22 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:30:29 <olsner> `run sed p < /proc/285/cmdline
17:30:34 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:30:42 <HackEgo> a.c \ a.out \ bi \ bin \ canary \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ god \ hi-bool.bf \ ibin \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ multiply.bf \ no \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ run \ share \ src \ wisdom
17:30:46 <tswett> Gregor: so uh... are *all processes* started up and then killed every time an IRC command is run?
17:30:54 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:30:59 <Bike> Roujo: the home directory isn't in $PATH i don't think
17:31:01 <HackEgo> bash: hackenv/run: No such file or directory
17:31:08 <Gregor> tswett: Given how long HackEgo's been around, I find it shocking that you don't know how it works.
17:31:18 <kmc> each command boots a fresh Linux VM
17:31:22 <tswett> Gregor: I am so sorry.
17:31:25 <kmc> for liberal meanings of 'fresh' and 'VM'
17:31:29 <kmc> and 'boots'
17:31:34 <Bike> kmc: btw did you see my link to my bloge
17:31:42 <kmc> the filesystem changes are merged afterward with Mercurial
17:31:47 <kmc> olsner: probably not that one
17:31:52 <kmc> UML is in-tree
17:31:52 <Roujo> `run export PATH=$PATH:~
17:31:56 <Bike> it's like a doge
17:31:58 <HackEgo> bash: run: command not found
17:32:03 <kmc> Bike: the thing about... uh, animals and engineers and stuff?
17:32:06 <fizzie> kmc: Are you saying it's some sort of non-liberal fascist Linux?
17:32:14 <tswett> `run echo `cat /proc/285/cmdline`
17:32:14 <Bike> just wondering is all, it's not important
17:32:15 <HackEgo> bash-cecho `cat /proc/285/cmdline`
17:32:17 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
17:32:20 <olsner> fizzie: pure communist open-source linux
17:32:26 <tswett> What the heck is bash-cecho?
17:32:28 <kmc> Bike: I saw it, seemed reasonable, wasn't sure exactly why you linked it to me... maybe I should read the paper and not just the bit you quoted
17:32:30 <boily> I think Friday subtly shifted into Monday, and had an evil dæmonic offspring that is happening at this very moment...
17:32:31 <HackEgo> cp: cannot create regular file `/bin/run': Read-only file system
17:32:38 <Roujo> `run cp run /hackenv/bin
17:32:41 <fizzie> tswett: "bash" "-c" "echo" with no spaces.
17:32:44 <olsner> boily: some weeks friday comes early
17:32:51 <tswett> fizzie: where'd the spaces go?
17:33:01 <fizzie> tswett: There are no spaces in /proc/pid/cmdline.
17:33:03 <Bike> kmc: just because i thought it was a nicer use of biological/computer analogies than "DNA is digital", plus generally because i thought it was cool
17:33:15 <tswett> fizzie: well, why not? }:|
17:33:19 <fizzie> `run echo `cat -v /proc/285/cmdline`
17:33:20 <HackEgo> bash^@-c^@echo `cat -v /proc/285/cmdline`^@
17:33:29 <fizzie> Because they're separated by '\0's.
17:33:41 <fizzie> (The individual arguments, that is.)
17:33:51 <kmc> DNA is digital though
17:34:10 <kmc> you'll never get me to stop pointing that out ;)
17:34:13 <zzo38> Well OK I suppose it is digital
17:34:17 <Bike> well you're still right.
17:34:37 <kmc> and some of the advantages of digital information storage are very important to both biological and computer systems
17:34:37 <Bike> doesn't mean i'm ever going to stop complaining about people calling it "the programming language of the body" or whatever~
17:34:54 <kmc> did you read that part of GEB where hofstadter says a bunch of stuff like that
17:34:58 <kmc> I bet it would piss you off a lot
17:35:03 <Bike> i did but i don't remember it
17:35:06 <kmc> so if you want to be pissed off a lot by a book, go read that hth
17:35:24 <HackEgo> ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ cats \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ frink \ fueue \ gaseen \ gccrun \ google \ h \ ?h \ h! \ hatesge
17:35:25 <Bike> and i do like that my mutations haven't killed me yet due to error-correcting-code-esque properties of transcription
17:35:29 <Bike> good stuff, imo
17:36:13 <Bike> i dunno how much angrier i can be at GEB really, i already had my eyes roll out of my head at the zen stuff
17:36:23 <kmc> goooooooooood shit man *puff* *puff*
17:36:36 <kmc> I think Zen is beyond ridicule because it so comprehensively ridicules itself
17:36:47 <zzo38> Why can your eyes roll out of your head at the Zen stuff?
17:36:49 <kmc> good trick
17:36:52 <Bike> i know a pretty hardcore buddhist who doesn't know shit about zen, it's great to see her get questions about it. "I DON'T FUCKING KNOW, JESUS CHRIST YOU HIPPIES"
17:37:15 <kmc> itt rants against hippies
17:37:30 <Bike> zzo38: general (western person twisting buddhism to fit their preconceptions)-ness
17:37:31 <kmc> there is a big rant against hippies in the big mushroom guide that my girlfriend got
17:37:43 <olsner> Bike: sounds like she ought to be more zen about questions about zen
17:37:47 <Bike> i mean, it's not as bad as the beatniks or anything
17:38:02 <kmc> which concludes with basically "btw if you want to trip that's fine just don't ask me stupid questions about fungi"
17:38:20 <Bike> "in that chapter we're going to cover psychoactive drugs, which is usually a fun topic" how appropriate, prof
17:39:12 <kmc> our awful intro-bio-for-non-bio-majors class was called "Drugs and the Brain"
17:39:16 <kmc> less interesting than you might think
17:39:29 <kmc> no practicum component
17:39:36 <Bike> endocannabinoid system ftw
17:39:51 <kmc> Bike I need to learn about the subjective difference between THC and CBD intoxication
17:40:27 <Bike> cross publish your trip report on silk road and the journal of experimental biology
17:40:39 -!- asie has joined.
17:40:40 <Bike> er, erwid, that's what i'ts called
17:41:06 <Bike> and JEB doesn't really cover human experience either but whatever
17:41:17 <kmc> i wonder how often david nichols's grad students have random people ask them for experimental hallucinogens
17:41:37 <kmc> and i also wonder what their parties are like
17:41:42 <Bike> it just occured to me that you could seriously publish a trip report in a serious anthropology journal
17:41:52 <Bike> best science? maybe
17:42:25 <kmc> i knew a friend of a friend who was a grad student (not for nichols) and said their strategy was basically "synthesize drug, take drug, see what drug does, figure out how to reproduce in rats so it's publishable"
17:42:44 <Bike> intelligent drug design
17:44:15 <kmc> there must be a lot of really interesting psychedelic drugs that are as yet undiscovered
17:44:54 <Bike> probably... i don't think pharmacology is far along enough yet that we can work out how stuff works, honestly :/
17:45:15 <kmc> like, among all the known phenethylamines and tryptamines, there's a single drug with a strong specific effect on auditory processing
17:45:26 <kmc> (diisopropyl tryptamine aka DiPT)
17:45:27 <Bike> heh i immediately thought of that too
17:45:50 <Bike> i wonder if i could get into working on physiological optics and then figure out how optical hallucinogens work, heh
17:45:56 <kmc> so I dunno what this would be like if psychedelics got the same amount of study as boner pills
17:46:10 <kmc> haha well a friend of mine did some research on that
17:46:41 <kmc> made a model of wave propagation in V1 neurons and then compared the result to known hallucination patterns
17:46:52 <kmc> it's polar mapped so you get either concentric circles or radial lines
17:46:55 <Bike> the book on vision i'm reading does get pretty "have you ever really looked at your hands" at points
17:47:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has left ("Leaving").
17:47:34 <Bike> wow the professor just said biopsychology and behavioral neuroscience are the same thing. wow dude. wow
17:49:26 <Bike> "Fiberoptic control of motion in Chr2 mouse" good recovery.
17:50:38 <Bike> oh hey! one of the labs here is doing research on pain treatment with THC and opiates.
17:51:58 <boily> the only time I was on opiates was a very interesting experience.
17:52:52 <Bike> http://blinkdb.org/ anyway, cool computer thing.
17:58:58 <AnotherTest> What is the fastest algorithm to find two equal values in an unsorted (and for that matter, unstortable) sequence of values?
17:59:26 <AnotherTest> (assuming nothing can be assumed about the values in the sequence)
17:59:29 <Bike> what the hell does "unsortable" mean (i have no idea though)
18:00:50 <Roujo> Can you put the whole thing in memory? =P
18:03:01 <boily> unsortable, as in your values do not form a poset?
18:04:33 <AnotherTest> Roujo: depends on how many memory you have. Probably not though. Maybe if you invented an architecture using 2048 bits as address size
18:04:47 <Roujo> AnotherTest: That can be arranged
18:05:03 <oklopol> unsortable = the algorithm T must be such that, for any turing machine M, for large enough n, on input lists of size n, M takes at least time O(n log n) to compute the sorted version of the input from any internal state encountered during the run of T or does not compute it.
18:05:09 <AnotherTest> (and if you have enough memory to use up all those addresses)
18:05:12 <Roujo> You're looking for ANY two equal values, right?
18:05:16 -!- Bike_ has joined.
18:05:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:05:54 <Roujo> Alright, here's what I would do
18:05:58 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
18:06:09 <oklopol> but anyway, perhaps you can formalize things like "write an algorithm that does X without doing Y" like this
18:07:21 <AnotherTest> oklopol: well, it might be sortable. But I only need to find the value once, so I don't think there is little point. I also need the indexes of the two equal elements, however those change after sorting.
18:08:13 * boily is listening to a jazz album that features slightly disturbing samples of farm animals...
18:09:22 <FreeFull> AnotherTest: If it's unsorted then I see it as worst case O(n²)
18:09:37 <FreeFull> And the only thing you can do is brute force
18:09:59 <Bike> i can't think of anything that wouldn't be the obvious n² one
18:10:13 <FreeFull> Bike: that's because there isn't anything
18:10:37 <Bike> don't be so pessimistic. remember grover's algorithm.
18:11:35 <Roujo> I'd be tempted to only match the first bytes at first to speed things up
18:11:48 <Roujo> Although I have no idea if I'd save anything in the end
18:11:59 <AnotherTest> FreeFull: isn't there some crazy algorithm that will solve everything automagically :(?
18:12:09 <FreeFull> Bike: That's only for quantum computers though
18:12:27 <boily> AnotherTest: swapping the current universe for one that has already solved the problem.
18:12:43 <AnotherTest> boily: what about... building a quantum computer
18:12:48 <Roujo> Snowflake Algorithm: return false;
18:12:57 <quintopia> 1) check if the problem is solved. 2) if not, implode universe
18:13:01 <Bike> Roujo: i think you usually assume comparison is constant-time in these things.
18:13:17 -!- conehead has joined.
18:13:18 <Roujo> AnotherTest: swapping the current universe for one that already has a quantum computer
18:13:28 <Roujo> Bike: Oh. Oh well =P
18:13:45 <Roujo> Still, it would be a neat trick if you can't hold a whole element in memory
18:13:52 <Bike> though i guess you might have a point. you could reject some results in, uh, less-constant time, at least.
18:14:09 <Bike> but that's probably irrelevant to the O time of the anothertestgorithm.
18:14:13 <oklopol> if you can only do comparisons, then you can probably prove an n log n lower bound for the number of comparisons
18:14:16 <AnotherTest> Roujo: If I swap the universe, wouldn't that invalidate my pointers?
18:14:17 <Roujo> Yeah, it's still n^2
18:14:26 <Roujo> AnotherTest: Not if they were safe pointers
18:14:26 <kmc> you can do it in two O(n) passes with a hash table right
18:14:34 <boily> AnotherTest: nah. too mainstream, and not ambitiöus enough.
18:14:35 <kmc> or if you just want to catch the "no solution" case, a bloom filter
18:15:35 <AnotherTest> suppose that given a value x at position i
18:15:44 <AnotherTest> then I can compute the value y at position i + 1
18:16:09 <oklopol> hash tables are the obvious solution if you're fine with "works in practice with probability 100-epsilon %", but _what if everything maps to the same element_
18:16:12 <Bike> starting to think you've presented your problem in a weird way here!
18:16:12 <Deewiant> Input formula into recursive equation solver, profit
18:16:28 <kmc> oklopol: universal hashes, hth
18:17:10 <oklopol> kmc: err, afaik that doesn't really help for deterministic algorithms
18:17:11 <Bike> AnotherTest: well i mean, you were talking about lists but now you're talking about "computing", which makes it seem like you contorted your actual problem to fit a list paradigm for us in the first place
18:17:14 <Roujo> kmc: What if you use the value as a hash?
18:17:17 <AnotherTest> I would use a hashtable if only it could store 10^600 elements
18:17:34 <Roujo> AnotherTest: Get a bigger table
18:17:46 <Roujo> Chop down a bittree
18:17:51 <Bike> (unrelatedly, if you have induction i wouldn't have even mentioned the z computation)
18:18:56 <Bike> so for example, it seems like this goes forever, is there guaranteed to be a repeated value at some point, or could it be monotonic or something
18:19:04 <FreeFull> oklopol: You could probably have a hash table that adapts to the input
18:19:29 <AnotherTest> Bike: yes, I have managed to found bounds for that as well
18:19:33 <FreeFull> Lookups would be just as fast but insertions would be worse
18:19:48 <Bike> http://rrresearch.fieldofscience.com/2013/07/apple-academic-press-predatory.html anyway here's a weird thing
18:19:48 <oklopol> you cannot have a hashing algorithm where it's not possible that everything you encounter maps to the same element, unless you do no compression
18:20:33 <Roujo> Treat every value as an address in memory. When you encounter a value, if its bit is on, it's a match! If it's not, well, meh.
18:20:45 <Roujo> Turn it on and go on to the next value
18:21:12 <Bike> AnotherTest: is there a distribution the values follow? can you do any sequence acceleration? what are the properties of the sequence in general? or do you just want us to ignore these and consider it an arbitrary sequence, like you said
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18:21:43 <Bike> do you want the first duplicate or any duplicate? bla bla, bla bla bla, bla
18:21:48 <AnotherTest> Bike: I don't want you to ignore them, but I can't tell you the properties either because... well because.
18:21:48 <Roujo> foreach(Value value : values) { if(File.exists(value)) { /* found match! /* } else { File.create(value) } };
18:21:53 <Bike> AnotherTest: ok
18:22:06 <FreeFull> oklopol: Not even if you change the algorithm if you get more than n things in one element?
18:22:17 <AnotherTest> I can tell you that the distribution isn't known though
18:22:24 <Bike> AnotherTest: but for example, you could have a linear algorithm with constant space if you knew that eventually two duplicate elements would be adjacent
18:22:25 <Roujo> foreach(Value value : values) { if(File.exists(value)) { /* found match! /* } else { File.create(value).write(value.getIndex()) } }
18:22:40 <Roujo> So that you have the matching index in the file
18:22:52 <Bike> well... not sure about linear really.
18:22:52 <oklopol> (or maybe yes, let's think a bit)
18:23:10 <Bike> i guess it's linear in the length until there are adjacent duplicates :D
18:23:15 <FreeFull> oklopol: But that would mean that there is a set of values which will always map to the same element no matter what hashing algorithm you use
18:23:27 <AnotherTest> Bike: Well I can predict the minimum and maximum distance between the two equal values
18:23:29 <Roujo> Hell, if File.create fails if the file already exists, then it's even easier!
18:23:42 <AnotherTest> which certainly helps, but brute force is just not really what I want
18:23:42 <Bike> AnotherTest: "the" two? are there only two?
18:23:51 <Bike> that's not brute force :(
18:23:57 <oklopol> and by yes i mean you're right, that is not true
18:24:19 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
18:24:35 <Bike> so when you say "i don't want brute force" in response to my solution there i assume you mean that you expect there to be duplicates long before the adjacent (or minimally distant) ones, and would rather get thoe
18:24:49 <Bike> which raises questions about your specific requirements, i think
18:24:50 <FreeFull> oklopol: you could have two elements though and split based on the mean value
18:25:02 <oklopol> you could of course just put the value in the next slot if the previous one is full, and you would certainly have only one value per hash cell
18:25:47 <FreeFull> Which would mean that you would have to potentially rebuild your hashcells on each insertion in the worst case
18:25:51 <oklopol> in any case i'm pretty sure no matter what you do a hash does not give any speedup in the worst case
18:26:13 <oklopol> but you're right, what i said earlier does not in any way prove this, perhaps i thought it did
18:26:21 <FreeFull> oklopol: I'm just thinking you can always make lookup better by making insertion worse
18:26:26 -!- sacje has joined.
18:26:59 <Roujo> I like my File System idea (^_^)
18:27:21 <oklopol> i'm just saying that i'm sure hash tables cannot be made 100% foolproof
18:27:32 * quintopia hands out fibonacci heaps to everyone
18:27:39 <Roujo> oklopol: Unless your hash function maps a value to itself
18:27:40 <AnotherTest> Bike: well suppose you want two find two equal values. Say they are located at i and j. I know that lower_bound < |i - j| < upper_bound. I can compute those bounds
18:27:47 <Roujo> But yeah, it's not really a hash function then =P
18:27:54 <oklopol> Roujo: right, unless there is no compression, as i mentioned earlier
18:28:03 <FreeFull> oklopol: Not even with a meta-function that creates hash functions?
18:28:17 <FreeFull> And horrid insertion complexity
18:28:31 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_hashing is like such a metafunction
18:29:01 <oklopol> for probabilistic algorithms, universal hashing ofc works
18:29:05 <Bike> AnotherTest: well that gives you an O(i*(upper-lower)) time and O(upper-lower) space algorithm at least
18:29:16 <Bike> AnotherTest: er assuming you don't mind computing those bounds
18:29:40 <AnotherTest> Bike: I also know that i + 1 == j + 1 is veru likely to be true
18:29:59 <AnotherTest> Bike: I can compute those bounds using simple calculations, so no
18:30:06 <Bike> i'm not sure that helps, but ok
18:31:01 <Bike> an emoticon or vi? we may neve rknow
18:31:21 <Roujo> Bike: Watch out, that space looks like it's escaping
18:31:23 <Bike> way to ruin the mystery asshole
18:31:36 <boily> in our offices we have the usual vim vs. heretics religion war.
18:31:39 <Bike> Roujo: neve's a strong one, she can keep it contained
18:32:12 <AnotherTest> Bike: actually, what makes you think that wasn't a lie
18:32:18 <FreeFull> Despite vim having ex built in
18:32:19 <Roujo> boily: I just use Notepad++ =P
18:32:29 <boily> FreeFull: of course, even if I had an argument with a sysadmin about the merits of sed against ed.
18:32:38 <Bike> AnotherTest: anyway how about this look-ahead-between-lower-and-upper algorithm, does that help you
18:32:50 <AnotherTest> Roujo: You mean notepad right? Who still uses ++ these days?
18:33:03 <boily> Roujo: that reminds me, I think I owe you a smack from last friday, quand que t'as mentionné Pauline, you evil miscreant!
18:33:09 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
18:33:26 <AnotherTest> Bike: well, that was my first idea but I figured that it wasn't very efficient
18:33:33 <Roujo> AnotherTest: I use ++ all the time. Why would you prefer notepad?
18:33:51 <Bike> AnotherTest: intuitively it seems like it uses the least possible number of comparisons, not that i have a proof
18:34:02 <AnotherTest> Roujo: It's like preferring C++ over C... ask eliott or someone else
18:34:29 <Roujo> Well, Notepad doesn't support syntax highlighting, or regex, or custom commands...
18:34:36 <boily> fungot: to ++ or not to ++?
18:34:36 <fungot> boily: and is one thing which you might want is broken" archives. even less chance. i called " o" in " the other side has. you came through, which is the bit-reversal of the statement is encountered, it is also readily than they use over there
18:34:42 <Bike> Roujo: "well C doesn't support classes"
18:34:58 <Roujo> Bike: Well C is a beautiful note, thank you very much
18:35:12 <Bike> c4 mother fucker
18:35:42 <boily> FreeFull: eh? you sure?
18:35:51 <Bike> i used to use it when notepad would crash on long documents
18:35:58 <boily> AnotherTest: I did by error once, but corrected myself soon afterwards.
18:36:06 <oklopol> notepad doesn't have undo :(
18:36:08 <Roujo> AnotherTest: lolwat.rtf
18:36:15 <FreeFull> sam's manpage is broken for some reason though
18:36:26 <Bike> oh, yes, and when people gave me rtfs for some godforsaken reason
18:36:34 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:36:34 <boily> I tried acme, too. got utterly confused by the way the mouse is used.
18:36:41 <HackEgo> bash: man-cat: command not found
18:36:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: run,: not found
18:37:06 <oklopol> wordpad has that horrible thing where you cannot choose anything but full words
18:37:10 <oklopol> otherwise it's like notepad with undo
18:37:27 <Bike> can i help you
18:37:30 <AnotherTest> Bike: hmm... well I guess that's bad news (and possibly good news at the same time <insert evil laughing>)
18:37:30 <FreeFull> Bike: sam has a command-line mode
18:37:36 <FreeFull> Bike: "read the fucking coder's brain"
18:38:08 <Bike> "Via Twitter, Tuomas Aivelo reports that profs in Finland must retire at 68–but many of them keep doing research, without pay!" ok
18:38:40 <Bike> AnotherTest: i have to compliment you here, you've got a good mix of information and hidden information here, near-optimal for evil laughs i would say
18:39:31 <AnotherTest> Bike: I would like to tell you but I'd probably disappear or something... ok I know I'm paranoia... or maybe not
18:39:41 <Bike> you're losing it
18:39:47 <Bike> that's too cheesy
18:40:07 -!- atrapado has joined.
18:41:15 * boily gives a Pied-De-Vent to AnotherTest
18:41:40 <boily> (very nice cheese from Îles-de-la-Madeleine. it smells like horse.)
18:41:52 <AnotherTest> I'm actually limited by other people. They probably wouldn't like me disclosing the entire thing
18:43:27 <boily> I never went there. In fact, I think the easternmost point I went to in Québec is Rimouski, and event then it only was up to Ste-Luce.
18:45:57 <AnotherTest> Bike: perhaps it's easier to answer the following: "what's the most efficient algorithm for cycle detection?"
18:47:16 <Bike> my experience with cycle detection is that fuck cycle detection forever, but i know there are good algorithms for it
18:48:21 <AnotherTest> Fiora: what's the time complexity of that?
18:48:50 <Fiora> Um... wikipedia says O(V*E)?
18:50:12 <Fiora> number of vertices and edges, I think?
18:50:30 <AnotherTest> oh right... I'm assuming you're looking at graph theory
18:50:50 <Fiora> isn't that where you'd find cycle detection stuff...? or am I missing something
18:51:44 <Roujo> boily: I went there, once. T'was nice.
18:54:35 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
18:57:33 -!- Bike has joined.
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19:00:26 -!- AndChat-151956 has joined.
19:00:49 -!- AndChat-151956 has changed nick to Roujo|Android.
19:01:10 <fizzie> Hey, you Canadians: do you play the ukulele?
19:01:17 <fizzie> I understand it's a thing.
19:02:33 -!- conehead has joined.
19:04:23 -!- Roujo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:04:53 <fizzie> (There was a documentary aired by the local public broadcasting company that was about the instrument; it featured a lot of Canadians.)
19:11:44 <Roujo|Android> I'm on IRC. On a bus. We're living in the future. Woot. =)
19:13:11 <fizzie> Given how far in the future we are, it should be at least a hot air balloon or something.
19:13:19 <boily> fizzie: a colleague does. we have a lime green uke with glitters somewhere...
19:13:44 <boily> Roujo|Android: you seem to always be in a bus.
19:13:45 <fizzie> boily: Apparently it is indeed a thing.
19:14:40 <Roujo|Android> boily: I take public transit to and from work, so... yeah =P
19:15:01 <boily> our workplace is a little bit weird. you can deambulate all around the floor with a rubber horse head and say hello to a colleague with a chicken head on your way to coffee.
19:15:25 <fizzie> This was the Linux place? Sounds par for the course.
19:15:39 <boily> Roujo|Android: yesterday was an interesting experience. there was that murder in the night that closed off Beaubien, and then the accident at the end of the day at Rosemont.
19:16:14 <boily> fizzie: very linux place. I have a penguin plushie on my desk that I use as a projectile when a coworker says something stupid.
19:16:45 <Roujo|Android> boily: Ah yes, the good old Rosemont Murder-Accident combo
19:17:22 <boily> we had to walk all around a block to get to the bus, me with a set of mahjong tiles in my packsack and a table on my head. it was fungotely heavy.
19:17:22 <fungot> boily: i know i didn't know that you've had it for some time i added a new page and sends it to emacs, i suggest, vote). you need to install in /usr/ lib " 1.ss" " srfi"
19:17:44 <boily> very sensible choice.
19:19:43 <boily> random grep question: is there a way to grep for a pattern that spans multiple lines? I'm searching for python function calls where a keyword argument has a certain value, e.g. "searched_function(..., random_arg_on_another_line='value')"?
19:20:07 <boily> Roujo|Android: you know what they say about that:
19:20:09 <metasepia> All this big deal about white collar crime -- what's WRONG with white collar
19:20:09 <metasepia> crime? Who enjoys his job today? You? Me? Anybody? The only satisfying
19:20:09 <metasepia> part of any job is coffee break, lunch hour and quitting time. Years ago
19:20:09 <metasepia> there was at least the hope of improvement -- eventual promotion -- more
19:20:09 <metasepia> important jobs to come. Once you can be sold the myth that you may make
19:20:10 <metasepia> president of the company you'll hardly ever steal stamps. But nobody
19:20:10 <metasepia> believes he's going to be president anymore. The more people change jobs
19:20:11 <metasepia> the more they realize that there is a direct connection between working for
19:20:11 <metasepia> a living and total stupefying boredom. So why NOT take revenge? You're not
19:20:12 <metasepia> going to find ME knocking a guy because he pads an expense account and his
19:20:12 <metasepia> home stationery carries the company emblem. Take away crime from the white
19:20:13 <metasepia> collar worker and you will rob him of his last vestige of job interest.
19:20:19 <fizzie> That was the longest fortune.
19:20:32 <boily> it didn't even flood. I'm disappointed.
19:20:57 <fizzie> boily: As for the grep, I've used the manual "grep -A 1 stuffonfirstline | grep -B 1 stuffonsecondline".
19:21:08 <fizzie> (It can get a bit confused if you happen to have a line that matches both.)
19:21:37 <olsner> fungot: how's your fortune?
19:21:37 <fungot> olsner: so, let's say i call them mindless games. if we hit every stupid person, any person going, tough one. if we solve it,...
19:22:04 <metasepia> --- Possible commands: dice, duck, echo, eval, fortune, metar, ping, yi
19:22:22 <fizzie> Still with the double-fault.
19:23:12 <olsner> oh, double fault as in two simultaneous errors, not an x86 double fault
19:23:30 <boily> fizzie: I went with "grep -Enrs", and hoped that both parts were on the same line. but your solution seems interestinger.
19:23:41 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic. He also claims to be Canadian. As per the Hexham treaty, he mustn't meet boily lest the Universe be destroyed.
19:23:49 <boily> time to update that...
19:24:28 <fizzie> olsner: The x86 double fault is what I was thinking; though I don't know what the closest IRC analogue would be.
19:24:31 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
19:24:42 <boily> `learn Roujo is still a Java heretic. His claim to Canadianness is soon to be verified by boily, treaties be damned. A cocktail and destruction of the Universe are scheduled at 19h00.
19:25:19 <coppro> sadly, I'm not in Montreal. I'm not even in Ottawa today
19:25:26 <olsner> I was thinking about making my OS use double fault as a catch-all interrupt/fault handler, using the error code of the double fault to figure out which interrupt it was trying to deliver
19:25:26 <boily> Roujo|Android: I'll be at the Broue Pub tonight for the Douteux. http://brouepubbrouhaha.com/index.cfm
19:25:41 <Roujo|Android> Also, with Teneb moving, Hexham will lose its special status =P
19:25:51 <olsner> (I'm not sure whether that actually works though)
19:26:07 <coppro> you guys should all come to waterloo, it's a pretty happening place
19:27:42 <boily> looks like a pretty standard Ontarian place.
19:28:19 <coppro> it's THE pretty standard Ontarian place, tyvm
19:28:46 <boily> I thought that Ottawa was more Ontarianer :p
19:29:01 <coppro> boily: what? no. Ottawa is bilingual
19:29:23 <boily> and? what's the problem?
19:30:05 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
19:30:49 <olsner> if the place is bilingual does that mean everyone speaks one/either language, or everyone speaks both?
19:31:13 <boily> olsner: you have a mix of pretty much every possible case.
19:31:49 <boily> you usually have more chances with English, but then it all depends where you are. sometimes Cantonese is a better choice.
19:33:48 <coppro> boily: oh, I'm in favour of bilingualism
19:33:54 <coppro> but it makes Ottawa pretty not-Ontarian
19:34:15 * coppro ran into the premier on Metcalfe yesterday
19:34:29 <boily> which premier? provincial or federal?
19:34:39 <coppro> no such thing as a federal premier
19:35:06 <boily> eh? they are not the same in English?
19:35:18 <coppro> prime minister for federal, premier for provincial
19:35:36 <boily> premier ministre, premier ministre.
19:35:40 <coppro> although some provinces used to use prime minister like Ontario, that was eventually changed to eliminate confusion
19:35:53 <coppro> je parle francais... un peu
19:36:00 <boily> c'est déjà pas pire!
19:36:10 <boily> I tried with Taneb once, but it didn't end well...
19:36:30 <coppro> tried what? speaking French?
19:36:55 <boily> I... uhm... forcefully inserted metaphorical electrodes in his brain.
19:37:10 <Taneb> Well, breaching the skull hurt
19:37:38 -!- asie has joined.
19:38:04 <olsner> Je pense que ça fait mal.
19:38:18 <fizzie> Doesn't Taneb moving just mean Hexham gets larger? I thought that's how it works.
19:38:38 <Taneb> I don't think I'm negative people
19:38:51 <fizzie> No, I mean, geographically larger.
19:39:01 <fizzie> The population count just monotonically increases anyway.
19:40:49 <^v> You know what
19:43:55 <boily> I don't know what.
19:46:12 -!- Koen_ has joined.
19:46:32 <boily> Koen_: do you know?
19:46:47 <Roujo> Ça a l'air marrant, le douteux =P
19:47:57 <kmc> oh good they are fixing the thing where extern "C" fn foo() { ... } has type *u8
19:48:29 <boily> Roujo: ouaisp :D bonne bière, bonne bouffe, choses étranges et bizarres, et un film poche à 22h00.
19:48:49 <Roujo> Trop tard pour moi, mind you, mais bon =P
19:50:44 <boily> pareillement for the bad movie, but sinon ça commence aux alentours de 7:30pm, with the main presentation à 20h00.
19:51:27 <boily> we once spontaneously started playing mahjong at a random table, and made a guy from Vancouver twitch.
19:52:04 <boily> he was hearing us shuffling tiles behind his back, and for a moment he was trying to remember where he had heard that sound before :D
19:53:05 <nooodl> help mixing français et anglais est confusing
19:53:16 <nooodl> est-ce que c'est always comme ça, living in canada
19:54:15 <boily> nooodl: it depends de où c'est que t'es. last weekend was hard on my brains, where j'avais à expliquer les règles du shōgi en français and in English to players in quelques groups at the same time.
19:54:31 <Koen_> boily: the answer is YES
19:54:48 <boily> ^v: according to Koen_, the answer is YES.
19:55:04 <Koen_> okay that just sounded weird, since the name of the school is 42
19:55:26 <^v> 42 = answer of life and everything
19:55:28 -!- Roujo|Android has quit (Quit: Bye).
19:55:29 <Koen_> also, all of my friends whom phoen number I still have also got YES
19:55:33 <boily> you asked “do you know”, I asked the same to Koen_, I forwarded you the answer.
19:55:44 <Koen_> oh wait you weren't interested
19:55:49 <Koen_> I thought that was an honest question
19:56:02 <boily> the question was honest. not me. sorry. hth.
19:56:19 <Koen_> I also asked if I could work for them
19:56:26 <Koen_> as an assistant, helping students etc
19:56:37 <Koen_> they were very interested
19:56:53 <Koen_> but this is fucking France so you know, there's a rule against it
19:57:45 <Koen_> I can't be paid because the pay would be too much, I can't be a volunteer because it wouldn't be enough
19:57:55 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:58:02 <boily> nooodl: is the feud between walloons and flemishs still strong in Belgium?
19:58:34 <Koen_> and I can't have an internship because I'm not a student yet
19:59:05 <boily> Koen_: the joy of CPE?
19:59:11 <nooodl> not *that* strong. these days we just joke about each other, or make sweeping statements about "die walen!" or "ces flamands!"
19:59:29 <Koen_> because it's interesting and I've got free time
19:59:35 <Koen_> I don't even care whether I'm paid or not
19:59:39 <boily> nooodl: well, that's a marked improvement.
20:00:01 <boily> Koen_: do as my breton coworkers and sail?
20:00:41 <Koen_> the only boats are on the seine
20:00:46 <Koen_> and they don't move that much
20:00:50 <nooodl> (note: "die walen!" is not a death threat)
20:01:26 <Koen_> nooodl: my ssiter used to have a poster of "die another day". I used to always pronunce the die as if it was the german word
20:03:08 <nooodl> do you live in paris Koen_
20:03:38 <Koen_> well I do at the moment
20:03:44 <Koen_> and I will during the school year
20:04:06 <Koen_> but I'll probably go *home* for what's left of the summer
20:04:31 -!- Bike has joined.
20:07:09 <kmc> Koen_: Die Gnu Autotools
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20:15:00 <boily> doesthiswork: I don't have you yet in my The Question Document. care to provide you approximate coördinates and body weigh, please?
20:16:49 <quintopia> why do you always use the verb in the place where the noun should go
20:17:07 <boily> quintopia: because it has been codified so.
20:17:12 <boily> doesthiswork: thanks!
20:17:53 <boily> only if the Esoteric Board of Traditions accepts.
20:18:20 <boily> doesthiswork: hey. you're near Bike!
20:18:38 <doesthiswork> is it policy to use only 100% beeswax candles in our rituals?
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20:20:02 <quintopia> doesthiswork: if so, it won't be any of yours
20:20:32 <kmc> BBC top story: arbitrary detention of journalists' family members by conspiracy of the US and UK
20:20:35 <kmc> CNN top story: bear attacks
20:21:27 <Bike> fox top story: why isn't the UK just detaining the journalists
20:21:57 <quintopia> tabloid top news story: bear attacks journalists' family members by conspiracy of the US and UK
20:22:09 <elliott> effectively detention of a journalist, isn't it? in that it seems likely he was acting as a proxy for Greenwald (who had also talked about giving the documents and stuff to him or something before?) no better, of course
20:22:09 <Bike> but yeah seriously that greenwald thing is fucked up.
20:22:13 <boily> doesthiswork: uhm... you sure about 47N 122W? I hope it's only a rounding error because it's even more nowhere than hexham.
20:22:14 <elliott> (note: my information on this is like a day old)
20:23:19 <metasepia> A city of west-central Washington on an arm of Puget Sound south of Seattle.
20:23:27 <Bike> tacoma isn't that nowhere
20:23:38 <olsner> the detention was probably very helpful in the war on terror, so all is good
20:24:15 -!- myndzl has changed nick to myndzi.
20:25:39 <Bike> kind of waiting for a government explanation, which i'm sure will be angering
20:26:00 <quintopia> doesthiswork: rounding to the nearest whole degree is a good way to end up in a completely different place
20:26:41 <quintopia> doesthiswork: at least give the minutes
20:30:54 <Bike> no doesthiswork! noooooo
20:31:00 <elliott> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjcPoiafP0 let's talk about wheels
20:31:46 <boily> doesthiswork: thanks again!
20:31:59 -!- augur has changed nick to julius.
20:32:12 -!- julius has changed nick to augur.
20:32:15 <boily> Bike: resistance is futile. you will be approximated with a small error.
20:33:11 <doesthiswork> with rtk you can get accuracy down to the sub inch level by measuring the phase of the signal
20:38:05 <Bike> nearly convinced my dad to buy a robomower once
20:38:21 <doesthiswork> they don't play completely nice with other manufacturers though
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21:13:38 <boily> stupid many to one field.
21:18:59 <boily> having a standard many2one in OpenERP is easy. but try to customise it, and all fungots break loose.
21:18:59 <fungot> boily: and it's self-modifying techniques." stop immobilizes and disables you. in these bones, i shall return! by the way, the wings! now this is a way to the ocean palace?
21:26:34 <Roujo> dat dangling quote
21:27:02 * boily dangles fungot by its quotes
21:27:02 <fungot> boily:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:27:10 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
21:27:23 <HackEgo> 567) <fungot> Ngevd:. i'm so kind, even to assholes! anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov anmaster no not markov
21:27:34 <boily> first: I'm not an asshole. second: seems it happened before.
21:28:14 <HackEgo> 555) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
21:28:22 <HackEgo> 28) <oklopol> i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. \ 68) Note that quote number 124 is not actually true. \ 74) <ais523> let's put that in the HackEgo quotes files, just to completely mystify anyone who looks back along them in the future \ 127) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" a
21:28:27 <boily> olsner: Vorpal is an anmaster?
21:28:35 <HackEgo> 124) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here.
21:28:58 <boily> ooooooh. Vorpal has a secret identity!
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21:29:16 <fizzie> Perhaps quotes should use some sort of numeric identifier that wouldn't keep changing with nicks.
21:29:19 <olsner> probably not so much secret as previous
21:29:40 <boily> same thing. succret and previous are only two sides of the same coin.
21:30:07 <boily> time to go. my brains are mush from too much XML, and I'm starting to make bad puns.
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21:31:39 <kmc> pub trait VectorVector
21:34:23 <fizzie> There's a LaVectorDouble in LAPACK++, but sadly it's not... whatever a VectorVector is (probably), it's just a double-precision vector.
21:36:50 <kmc> it's a trait for vectors of vectors, so the implementations are for &'self [~[T]] and &'self [&'self [T]]
21:37:02 <kmc> beautiful language imo
21:37:13 <kmc> is there any esolang with region pointers?
21:38:34 <kmc> I think as long as there is not I will feel justified talking about Rust in here
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21:40:54 <olsner> have you started having obfuscated rust code contests yet?
21:41:01 <kmc> good question
21:41:22 <kmc> error: mismatched types: expected `std::iterator::Map<'t,display_list::DisplayItem<E>,(display_list::DisplayItemKey,&'t display_list::DisplayItem<E>),std::vec::VecIterator<'t,display_list::DisplayItem<E>>>` but found `std::iterator::Map<,&display_list::DisplayItem<E>,(display_list::DisplayItemKey,&display_list::DisplayItem<E>),std::vec::VecIterator<,display_list::DisplayItem<E>>>`
21:41:28 <kmc> C++ FLASHBACK
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21:41:44 <kmc> yeah that's an error message from rustc
21:41:46 <kmc> those are rust types
21:45:28 <fizzie> You need some sort of a rustfilt, clearly.
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21:47:54 <kmc> well actually the name mangling in binaries is C++ compatible
21:48:16 <fizzie> Oh, I was thinking of that other thing.
21:48:31 <kmc> but then there's another layer of mangling too
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21:48:47 <kmc> that would be nice
21:48:52 <kmc> these iterators are super new and pretty ugly
21:49:12 <kmc> if you build and return an iterator by calling some chain of map filter etc, that whole chain is evident in the type of what you return
21:49:22 <kmc> it's a little hard to avoid this in a language which handles allocation the way C++ or Rust does
21:49:25 <kmc> but still, eww
21:49:41 <Bike> another engineering class, another sausagefest
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21:51:30 <Fiora> gosh, your classes have already started?
21:51:53 <Bike> yeah, the year starts fairly early here i guess.
21:52:04 <Bike> i'm fine with it. schoollessness is dull
21:52:04 <doesthiswork> have you ever read debra tannen's book on the differing values we set up for women and men? (at least in america)
21:52:38 <Fiora> which classes do you have this semester?
21:53:00 <Bike> i feel in this case the anecdotal data of "there's only one woman versus twenty-something males in my circuits class" is stark enough for a first analysis
21:53:21 <Bike> Fiora: intro inorganic chem, intro psych, intro organismal biology, design of logic circuits
21:53:24 <doesthiswork> basically, one thing men are trained is that if you want respect you have to be better than someone else
21:53:45 <Bike> i guess "anecdotal data" is a pretty silly phrase
21:53:55 <Fiora> are these like, all neuroscience prereqs?
21:53:55 <fizzie> I think our first exam period (where you can mostly retake things from before summer) starts next week.
21:54:25 <kmc> our year didn't start until late september, because we did three 11-week terms per year, and that makes the holidays line up better
21:54:27 <Bike> well, except circuits, which is just "let's put some more electricy stuff in there"
21:54:51 <Bike> not that i'm complaining, i've been looking forward to this one
21:55:01 <Fiora> is this like, where you get to design adders and stuff?
21:55:09 <doesthiswork> and one thing women are trained is that if you want to be liked you should be equal and share contributions
21:55:12 <Bike> not sure actually!
21:55:19 <kmc> oh man, adder architectur
21:55:20 <Bike> doesthiswork: oh i've seen these books before, about communication
21:55:32 <Bike> i already "know" how to make adders thanks to that one book with mammoths
21:55:38 <kmc> I had no idea until I shadowed 6.004 that making a fast adder is actually kind of tricky!
21:55:39 <Bike> actually making one in lab would be cool though
21:55:47 <Bike> kmc: yeah i still have no idea how the fancier ones work
21:55:57 <Fiora> kmc: I helped make a 12-bit adder! in Electric! okay so probably I didn't contribute much but still
21:56:01 <kmc> if you just chain a bunch of adders sequentially then the last one waits for the carry from the second to last, which waits etc.
21:56:16 <Bike> i think knuth mentions it but i didn't understand his explanation of the other kinds
21:56:31 <kmc> Bike: well a carry-select adder is kind of simple, basically let's duplicate the upper half of the adder, do it once assuming 0 carry and also in parallel assuming 1 carry
21:56:37 <kmc> and then you just mux the outputs by the carry bit at the end
21:56:49 <Bike> oh. yeah. hey that makes sense.
21:57:09 <kmc> and you can do that recursively (dividing to equal halves each time isn't optimal, since there's more delay on higher bits, but I don't remember exactly what kind of lopsided tree is best)
21:57:18 <Bike> hopefully this class will get me a better grasp of terms like "mux", i mean I already know what a multiplexer does but still
21:57:38 <Fiora> mux is just, like, something that ors together a lot of bits, isn't it?
21:57:51 <kmc> uh inputs (A,B,S), output A if S=0, B if S=1
21:58:02 <kmc> that's the simplest mux
21:58:03 <Fiora> ohhh. so it's like a selector
21:58:17 <Koen_> that sounds like and if-then-else
21:58:21 <Fiora> so like you have 8 inputs from cache banks, and a selector to say which of the cache banks to use
21:58:26 <Koen_> a functional if-then-else*
21:58:27 <Fiora> and that's a big mux?
21:58:28 <kmc> yep it's a hardware if / C ?: operator
21:58:30 <doesthiswork> bike: yes, and an interesting consequence of that is when you make something really competitive, our men are going to be a lot more comfortable than our women will be.
21:58:44 <fizzie> I made that ripple-carry addler in OpenTTD, does that count as doing electronics?
21:58:53 <kmc> you can straightforwardly expand A,B to be n-way buses, and you can also expand S to be n bits and have 2^N inputs instead of just 2
21:59:08 <kmc> CPUs have lots of muxes because they have to route data around differently, depending on the instruction
21:59:28 <Koen_> the C language doesn't have a function switch?
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22:00:20 <Bike> "Received a 10 MB XLSX. Seems to contain one sheet with about 50 x 30 #baffling" bioinformatics is a scary science
22:01:01 <Bike> oh, up to four women now.
22:02:01 <Bike> doesthiswork: this sounds kind of oversimplified but i guess it's something
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22:02:40 <doesthiswork> yes, it is an oversimplification because irc doesn't have room for essays
22:02:43 <Bike> "This adder design can be complemented with a carry-lookahead adder structure to generate the MUX inputs, thus gaining even greater performance as a parallel prefix adder while potentially reducing area" see, like this, i don't even know what "area" means really, like how do you calculate it
22:02:46 <fizzie> It's a crying shame that you can't do something like ({ switch (x) { ... } }) kind of thing with GCC statement expressions, because the last statement in the block needs to be an expression statement in order for the construct to have a (non-void) value.
22:02:48 <Bike> doesthiswork: granted
22:03:32 <Fiora> Bike: I think it's just, like, the space your circuit takes up when you actually go draw out the transistors and wires?
22:03:47 <Bike> yeah but i've never seen a non-abstract wiring diagram
22:04:15 <Bike> i don't know how you work out things like "well these two wires have to be x distance apart to avoid crosstalk"
22:04:26 <Fiora> they're design rules, I think
22:04:42 <Fiora> like, in the program I used there were restrictions like that, and rules about how you had to place wires and how large N/P doped areas had to be?
22:04:52 <Fiora> and there was a checker that would tell you if you were breaking the rules and where
22:05:01 <Bike> well, that's why i'm in class, and you already have your bs :p
22:05:26 <Fiora> you'll probably know wayyy more than me when I'm done, I have like near-zero actual experience <.<
22:06:04 <Bike> it's kind of funny asking questions in class. i think my psych prof thinks i'm a confused pre-med because i kept asking about the difference between clinical and research psychology
22:07:28 <Fiora> basically wiring the thing kinda felt like playing a video game, like a puzzle game where you had to do something according to certain restrictions
22:07:34 <Bike> on that note, he mentioned that they get most of their guinea pigs for research from a requirement for 101 students to participate in research, so that's great
22:07:38 <Bike> Fiora: yeah and it's np-complete isn't it
22:08:23 <Bike> TAs TBD, grader TBD, lab time TBD. what the hecks
22:09:33 -!- Pouti has joined.
22:09:56 <Fiora> like um, for example I have no idea how clocks work at all like I know there's a clock signal and it goes throughout the chip but how does it even I don't understand
22:10:01 <Fiora> like how does it make things do stuff
22:10:11 <Fiora> I guess you will probably learn this <.<
22:10:13 <Bike> that will be interesting to learn
22:10:22 <Bike> clockless circuits seem pretty interesting to me
22:11:01 <Fiora> or do like, do clocks only plug into SRAM cells representing the data at the start/end of each clock cycle?
22:11:15 <Fiora> like SRAM -> one clock worth of computation -> SRAM -> one clock worth of computation [...]
22:11:21 <doesthiswork> bike: programmer culture is fairly hierarchal because some people are a lot better at it than others (observe the oneupsmanship to establish a hierarchy that goes on when two programmers meet and have to work on a project together). But I wonder if there is a social structure that gets just as many cool things made, but doesn't need as much confrontation.
22:11:24 * Fiora has idea and is totally guessing
22:11:36 <Bike> professor doesn't know what the class is called. lol.
22:12:17 <Bike> doesthiswork: i think the meritocratic nature of the field is often overplayed
22:13:05 <doesthiswork> overplayed by people participating or people talking about it?
22:13:30 <Fiora> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock_tree#Distribution "Most synchronous digital systems consist of cascaded banks of sequential registers with combinational logic between each set of registers. The functional requirements of the digital system are satisfied by the logic stages."
22:13:39 <Fiora> I... I think I was right? o_o
22:13:51 <Bike> u skilled grrrrl
22:14:16 <HackEgo> pouti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:14:19 <Fiora> I was just guessing based on my tiny bit of knowledge about verilog ;_;
22:15:02 <Pouti> Roujo and HackEgo : Hello!
22:15:15 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
22:19:22 <Pouti> Roujo : So, working on some interesting project?
22:20:11 <Roujo> Well, I have an IRC bot that I should be fixing
22:20:19 <Roujo> But it's in Java, so I'd rather not talk about it here
22:20:29 <Roujo> Lest I draw the ires of elliott
22:25:58 <Pouti> Many projects, none related to programmation at this moment
22:26:43 <Bike> prof is comparing FPGAs to freshmen. good prof
22:27:44 <kmc> yeah I stayed up all night once doing PCB layout as a puzzle game
22:27:57 <kmc> you have to connect all the points and you can use red wires and blue wires and you can't cross two wires of the same color
22:28:02 <kmc> nice and abstract :)
22:28:10 <kmc> I think VLSI layout is a lot harder but I don't know
22:28:53 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds super similar, we had two metals (wires) and so on
22:29:03 <Bike> «we have [a NES chip someone designed in class] somewhere internally, apparently it's "illegal"»
22:29:27 <Fiora> I remember the professor explaining that like, each metal was a layer in the chip, so more metals would be more costly to fabricate
22:29:31 <kmc> Bike: haha
22:31:52 <Bike> he just described an executable as something that "constrains a processor to run a certain program", oh man
22:33:05 <kmc> the 6.004 labs include optimizing your logic for speed
22:33:07 <kmc> which is pretty fun
22:33:19 <kmc> lots and lots of little tweaks to eliminate gates from the critical path
22:33:33 <kmc> of course IRL you have to optimize for speed, area, power consumption, yield, etc. all at once
22:33:53 <Fiora> gosh, that sounds really fun I wish I had taken something like that
22:34:18 <Bike> for this class we have to buy an FPGA board instead of a textbook, so, lookin' p. cool
22:34:28 <kmc> Fiora: you can! i "took" this class in that I downloaded the labs and did them
22:34:40 * Bike plays the twilight zone theme
22:34:42 <kmc> it might be on OpenCourseWare but it's often better to just find the course website
22:35:18 <Fiora> kmc: that sounds really cool! um, do you know where I can find it <.<
22:35:25 <kmc> http://6004.mit.edu/ see "Handouts" and "Courseware"
22:35:36 <kmc> they have this logic simulator JSim which is... not great, but bearable
22:35:41 <kmc> I recommend using an external editor
22:35:52 <kmc> but it like simulates at the gate level, and will draw the logic timing diagrams
22:35:54 <Bike> oh, i've used jsim, it's ok
22:36:00 <kmc> also it can simulate analog stuff SPICE style
22:36:14 <kmc> the first lab is all about like "let's see how transistors are in fact analog devices and then, oh god, pretend they aren't"
22:36:25 <Bike> good sell, kmc. good sell
22:36:55 <Bike> oh, no, i used mars and logisim
22:37:20 <Bike> logisim was pretty boring but worked well enough
22:39:31 <Bike> why did i even mention mars.
22:47:40 <kmc> btw if anybody can explain to me how bipolar junction transistors work, and how field effect transistors work
22:47:43 <kmc> using small words
22:47:43 <kmc> that would be cool
22:58:37 <Fiora> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/FET_comparison.png um, I'm not sure if I'm right but
22:59:18 <Fiora> the idea seems to be that voltages applied to the sides move around the electrons in the transistor so that the top-bottom route becomes passable to electrons, or not
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23:00:30 <kmc> there are so many kinds and modes >_>
23:01:39 <Fiora> well like one kind moves around electrons, another moves around holes, and so on, I think?
23:02:06 <kmc> that's easy enough I suppose
23:04:59 -!- Pouti has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
23:05:20 * oerjan suddenly envisions integrated circuits of black holes
23:06:14 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:07:24 * ^v suddenly smashed his vision with a hammer
23:07:56 <oerjan> i don't think i will recommend that.
23:09:14 <Fiora> kmc: so I guess, like, "field effect" refers to how the electromagnetic fields drag the electrons in this material out of the way, changing the conductivity?
23:09:38 <Fiora> I think that's it, at least...
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