00:09:42 -!- Koen__ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
00:12:23 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; ls -1 | grep '[:upper:]'
00:12:25 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
00:12:36 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | grep '[:upper:]'
00:12:38 <HackEgo> america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bigchar \ bike \ bird \ bonvenon \ botlop \ braid theory \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ cakeprophet \ california \ caps lock \ category \ category-helpdesk \ category theory \ cello \ certainly \ certainty \ chess \ claustrophobia \ cocoonspirator \ coffe
00:13:07 <oerjan> there is weird, and there is broken. this is broken.
00:14:45 <Jafet> I am annoyed that oerjan has decided to annoy people
00:14:47 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | LANG= grep '[:upper:]'
00:14:49 <HackEgo> america \ atriq \ atrix \ augur \ banach-tarski \ bicategory \ bienvenue \ bigchar \ bike \ bird \ bonvenon \ botlop \ braid theory \ brain \ brainf**k \ brainfuck \ brick \ burma \ cakeprophet \ california \ caps lock \ category \ category-helpdesk \ category theory \ cello \ certainly \ certainty \ chess \ claustrophobia \ cocoonspirator \ coffe
00:14:57 -!- ^v has changed nick to ^onrv.
00:15:17 -!- ^onrv has changed nick to ^v.
00:15:22 <Jafet> `run ls /bin | grep '[[:upper:]]'
00:15:23 <oerjan> Jafet: i have no idea why this prints those lines
00:16:03 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | LANG=C grep '[A-Z]'
00:16:05 <HackEgo> Roujo's relevant info \ wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
00:18:53 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/{R,r}"oujo's relevant info"
00:19:02 <oerjan> `run cd wisdom; /bin/ls -1 | LANG=C grep '[A-Z]'
00:19:04 <HackEgo> wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
00:19:38 <oerjan> Jafet: it's not my fault that grep with a locale completely ignores the intended meaning of [:upper:]
00:20:32 <Jafet> `run echo TEST | grep '[[:upper:]]'
00:20:38 <Jafet> `run echo TEST | grep '[[:lower:]]'
00:21:41 * oerjan swats himself -----###
00:29:09 <zzo38> I have read somewhere of "Rochester poker", where you make a poker hand like you draft cards in Magic: the Gathering.
00:29:21 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
00:29:30 <Roujo> I don't know what I expected
00:29:47 <zzo38> Roujo: I have seen that joke before, in some book
00:30:46 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
00:30:47 <Roujo> `run echo ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Your dongers. Raise them. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ > wisdom/ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
00:31:17 <Roujo> I'm impressed at the amount of characters filenames can take
00:34:05 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:38:19 <kmc> I think in "native" UNIX filesystems you can have any byte except 0x00 or 0x2F ('/') and it doesn't much care what encoding they conform to, either
00:38:25 <oerjan> hm cephalopod shortage
00:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, but presumably there are UTF-8 characters encoded with a 0x2f?
00:40:09 <shachaf> 0x2f is only used to encode the character 0x2f
00:40:48 <zzo38> UTF-8 follows the Principle of Extended ASCII, so it means all ASCII codes always correspond to themself.
00:41:51 <kmc> such is the genius of the prophet ken thompson
00:42:45 <zzo38> Some programs using UTF-8 fail to follow the Principle of Extended ASCII, however.
01:24:43 <oerjan> `addquote <elliott> my contract states right here that I have to tell you the best version of python is called haskell 2010
01:24:47 <HackEgo> 1100) <elliott> my contract states right here that I have to tell you the best version of python is called haskell 2010
01:25:22 <zzo38> Don't confuse Python with Haskell.
01:25:44 <oerjan> zzo38: it's not confusion it's a joke
01:26:22 <zzo38> Yes, it is a joke, you may not be confusing things, but you still shouldn't confuse it (regardless of whether or not you do).
01:35:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:36:04 -!- Nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:43:15 <Sgeo> `slist if you haven't seen the one from a few hours ago
01:43:17 <HackEgo> slist if you haven't seen the one from a few hours ago: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
01:46:11 -!- mad has joined.
01:47:02 <mad> it's so hard to come up with an architecture that's simple and efficient
01:47:11 <mad> and not just end up with another MIPS clone
01:47:27 <Bike> that's why they pay people big bux for doing so, i guess!
01:47:28 <zzo38> mad: It does seems so.
01:47:39 <mad> I've ended up with
01:47:42 <mad> mov add sub cmp ucp mul
01:47:42 <mad> and or xor lsr lsl asr
01:47:42 <mad> ld ldh ldb lds ldc st sth stb
01:47:42 <mad> jz jnz jp jl jr sys
01:47:54 <zzo38> OK, now describe it
01:48:14 <mad> all instructions are opcode rd, rx, ry/#immediate
01:48:19 <mad> except jumps
01:48:26 <mad> where rd = destination register
01:48:32 <mad> rx = source register 1
01:48:53 <mad> ry/#immediate = source 2 is either a register, or an immediate
01:49:12 <zzo38> What are the registers, then? What are the other features?
01:49:39 <mad> registers are... r0..r15 or r0..r31, haven't decided on 16 vs 32 yet
01:50:01 <zzo38> Also describe exact function of instructions.
01:50:29 <mad> mov add sub mul and or xor lsr lsl asr are exactly what you'd expect
01:50:39 <zzo38> OK, that is expected.
01:51:07 <zzo38> What are others, though?
01:51:44 <mad> cmp does a signed comparison between two registers and writes 0 if rx is smaller than ry, and... -1 if it's larger (or it could be 1, I'm not sure which is better, MIPS goes for 1)
01:52:04 <mad> ucp is the same thing but with unsigned comparison
01:52:55 <mad> ld is 32 bit load, source #2 is shifted 2 bits left and added to source #1 and then the aligned data at that address is loaded
01:53:27 <zzo38> Both using -1 and using +1 can be useful for different reasons (for C compiling, you should use +1; for BASIC, you should use -1; Forth tends to use -1 too)
01:53:38 <mad> ldh lds are 16bit, unsigned and signed, source #2 is shifted 1 bit
01:54:06 <mad> ldb ldc are 8bit, unsigned and signed, source #2 isn't shifted
01:54:36 <mad> st sth stb are stores (32bit, 16bit, 8bit respectively, source #2 is shifted the right amount of bits)
01:54:52 <zzo38> Is it source #2 which is signed?
01:55:05 <mad> no it's the data loaded from memory
01:55:22 <zzo38> So it is sign extended.
01:55:28 <mad> yes of course
01:56:11 <mad> jz checks if a register is 0, and jumps to an immediate offset if yes (signed offset relative to the instruction)
01:56:25 <mad> jnz is same but for register != 0
01:56:54 <mad> jp is same but always jumps (and might have a larger immediate but is still relative to PC)
01:57:41 <mad> jl is the same but it writes the value of the PC to a register (probably r14 or r30, ARM uses r13)
01:58:00 <mad> jr jumps to the memory address in a register
01:58:18 <mad> so returning from a function is effectively jr r14
01:58:38 <zzo38> If the PC is also one of the registers, do you need jr instruction?
01:58:51 <mad> PC is not a named register
01:59:06 <mad> not orthogonal enough
01:59:21 <mad> ARM had that (PC = r15) and regretted it
01:59:50 <zzo38> I do suppose having the number for PC register can be messing up caching
02:00:18 <mad> irl on a typical pipeline the PC will be at least a couple cycles off
02:00:47 <mad> and once the design becomes superscalar with branch prediction the relationship becomes even crazier
02:00:52 <mad> not worth it
02:00:53 <zzo38> I think explicit pipelining and caching should be better though
02:01:06 <pikhq> zzo38: I didn't peg you for a fan of Itanic.
02:01:37 <mad> explicit pipelining sounds like a bad plan to me but I'm not familiar with the concept
02:02:47 <mad> how do you explicit pipeline a cpu anyways
02:02:50 <zzo38> I think not implementing it at all would be better than having it automatic
02:05:12 <mad> the thing with the PC is that it lives in a completely different part of the pipeline
02:05:50 <mad> and also it needs its own read/write ports
02:05:57 <zzo38> One thing that might be done is having a microcode memory partially ROM and partially RAM, and then your program is running in there (there can be more than one microcode core, for parallel execution of some instructions), which can use the data RAM in the microcode for caching; you can then which which microcode memory spaces are address and data.
02:06:10 <zzo38> (I mean which are program and data)
02:06:44 <mad> I'm pretty sure you gain nothing from conflating the PC with the other registers
02:07:05 <zzo38> Therefore it is not quite harvard, because you can swap the program with the data
02:07:38 <mad> I'd definitively keep instruction cache and microcode separate
02:07:52 <mad> and data cache too
02:08:00 <pikhq> mad: Except when you're dealing in emulation. Then the PC is best considered another register.
02:08:16 <mad> pikhq: true
02:08:18 <pikhq> Of course, nobody designs ISAs around emulators. :)
02:08:32 <zzo38> pikhq: Except for Z-machine
02:08:33 <mad> for emulators I'd still keep the PC separate
02:08:47 <mad> actually for emulators I'd go for total hardvard architecture
02:08:52 <pikhq> zzo38: I mean "CPU ISAs" obviously.
02:09:16 <pikhq> zzo38: Obviously VMs are designed all the time. :)
02:09:19 <mad> and probably even separate the return address stack from everything else
02:09:35 <pikhq> mad: Hmm. True, this would make some aspects a lot simpler.
02:10:12 <pikhq> Namely, any sort of optimization of the VM beyond naive intepretation.
02:10:19 <mad> also I'd remove the "register jump" and replace it with "indirect jump with a look up table" or something like that
02:10:28 <mad> so that all the jumps can be easily retargetted
02:10:50 <mad> to make sure you can relatively easy JIT recompile your code
02:10:54 <mad> so that it runs fast
02:11:18 <pikhq> You can get fairly impressive performance from an interpreter if you're quite careful in its design.
02:11:49 <zzo38> Well, I think Z-machine is well designed (that is, the one Infocom designed)
02:11:50 <mad> "you get 7 registers" "why" "cause that's how many fits in the x86 recompiled code"
02:12:32 <pikhq> The secret is to have an indirect jump at the end of each instruction's code so the branch predictor doesn't do literally 100% misprediction.
02:12:48 <pikhq> Still mispredicts a lot, obviously, but hey.
02:13:08 <mad> actually it might be possible to shuffle the stack pointer around in some less important register and get 8 registers
02:13:28 <mad> pikhq : oh that's a nice idea actually
02:13:41 <pikhq> I've done it. It helps quite a bit.
02:13:46 <mad> kinda wondering how to get msvc to compile that kind of code
02:13:59 <pikhq> Ah, the answer there is "don't".
02:14:13 <pikhq> Or, alternately, have a switch statement in a macro. :)
02:14:53 <mad> yeah I have to check if MSVC compiles it to multiple return statements or a single one
02:15:44 <pikhq> Also, re: x86 registers. Though inconvenient you could honestly use the floating point register stack for a few more registers.
02:16:15 <mad> I'm not sure that would be any faster than just using memory for the overflow registers
02:16:34 <pikhq> Keep in mind that you can actually do integer arithmetic with those registers.
02:16:58 <mad> I'm not sure there's any opcodes for transferring data to/from normal registrers to FPU ones
02:17:12 <mad> though there are some for MMX registers and SSE ones I think
02:18:30 <mad> for a CPU with dynamic microcode, you really want the microcode to be in a separate bank than instruction and data cache
02:19:00 <mad> otherwise you have to share your access ports between the microcode and data cache
02:19:18 <mad> which divides your throughput and increases the width of your multiplexers
02:19:22 <mad> so it's like double bad
02:21:02 <mad> I'm not sure it's possible to design a fast cpu with dynamic microcode either
02:21:18 <pikhq> Doesn't seem there's an instruction for transferring to/from normal registers, no.
02:21:36 <zzo38> mad: Well, it isn't fast if the program isn't written in microcodes.
02:21:53 <zzo38> I don't know; I still want to simplify it by having the microcode being the only cache (there can still be a separate program and data cache, and you can switch which one is program and which one is data)
02:23:16 <pikhq> Probably simplest to just go via MMX.
02:23:17 <mad> you're not simplifying it
02:23:26 <mad> if you make it the same as some other thing
02:23:49 <mad> because if you make them separate, then you can simply make everything read 1 data on every cycle
02:23:53 <zzo38> The program cache I mean is only the microcode program cache though
02:23:55 <mad> 1 instruction per cycle
02:24:06 <mad> 1 memory read per cycle
02:24:15 <mad> 1 microcode access per cycle
02:24:35 <mad> if you conflate, say, the data cache and microcode cache
02:24:53 <mad> then you have to decide on each cycle who gets to read from it
02:25:11 <zzo38> That isn't what I am doing, as I am specifying
02:26:45 <mad> you mean like the instruction cache contains microcode instead of instructions?
02:29:33 <mad> that's actually not a bad idea
02:29:39 <mad> pentium 4 did that
02:29:42 <zzo38> The microcode ROM would load the rest of the microcode program from the external ROM and then switch to the other bank.
02:30:24 <zzo38> A microcode program would then be unable to modify itself directly; you would have to load a program into the other bank which modifies this one, instead.
02:31:01 <zzo38> (This is also the only way for the microcode program to read itself)
02:32:13 <zzo38> I don't know if any computer does this, but I like it
02:32:37 <mad> you have to look up on how the pentium 4 did its trace cache
02:34:33 <mad> and how the crusoe did its crazy stuff
02:38:06 <zzo38> What similarities and differences is there from what I wrote about?
02:38:49 <mad> the crusoe is some kind of VLIW with 128bit opcodes
02:39:02 <mad> but the first thing it does is load up some x86 emulator
02:39:34 <mad> then it dynamically translates x86 code into its VLIW instruction set as it goes along
02:39:45 <mad> you never get access to the VLIW core
02:40:18 <^v> i am sooooo ||ed
02:40:55 <mad> it reserves something like 512k for the VLIW operation
02:41:16 <mad> and it has all sorts of insane stuff to keep the emulation running smooth
02:41:35 <mad> like explicit memory anti-aliasing instructions
02:42:26 <mad> the pentium 4 is a lot more sane
02:47:17 <zzo38> But do any have the only cache being microcode cache, there are two of them and you can switch between which is program and which is data?
02:49:00 <zzo38> Then make such thing
02:49:02 <mad> being able to switch would add extra multiplexers in the cpu
02:49:05 <mad> and make it slower
02:49:27 <mad> also, switching would probably require a pipeline flush
02:50:09 <zzo38> Yes, I can understand those things
02:51:15 <zzo38> Although I was thinking of not even having a pipeline, and furthermore the user program is written in microcodes therefore it isn't as slow
02:51:39 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
02:52:10 <zzo38> Any pipeline it does have is explicitly programmed using multi cores; there would be no implicit pipelining
02:54:25 <mad> the general problem with explicit pipelining is that it's very hard to process a clean interrupt on that
02:55:02 <mad> afaik you have to freeze everything and then empty all the multiple cycle versions of everything
02:57:34 <mad> MIPS etc had these problems
02:57:41 <mad> like on branch delay slots
02:58:35 <pikhq> Branch delay slots. Sigh.
02:58:39 <pikhq> Such a wonky idea.
02:58:41 <mad> and I think the first few MIPS had some bugs on when interrupts happened on the same cycle as branches
02:59:20 <mad> pikhq : it's sorta worth it when you're at 1 instruction per cycle and you don't have a branch target buffer
02:59:36 <zzo38> Just ignore that stuff and you instead implement it in the user program.
02:59:42 <mad> but then when you become superscalar with a branch predictor you regret it
03:00:17 <mad> MIPS is mostly an embedded CPU nowadays so it might have been good for them overall
03:01:19 <zzo38> Don't add superscalar, branch prediction, and all that stuff; implement static prediction in the parts of the user program which are written in microcodes.
03:02:07 <zzo38> You can also implement the other things using that, and using multi core microcodes (they do not all have to be equivalent cores)
03:02:43 <mad> on a design like that you're probably better of handling interrupts on a separate CPU
03:03:09 <mad> when an interrupt happens, completely freeze the larger configurable core
03:03:35 <mad> have a smaller specialized core correctly save/restore the state and handle interrupts
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03:03:53 <zzo38> Yes, you could do that
03:06:00 <mad> what sort of code do you want to run?
03:06:35 <zzo38> Can you be more specific?
03:07:31 <mad> do you want to emulate existing cpus or do fast number crunching or run straight C++ code with memory ops and jumps all over the place?
03:07:57 <zzo38> Run a code which is programmed specificly for this CPU
03:08:21 <zzo38> Programmed using microcodes that do what is helpful
03:08:44 <mad> so assembly code?
03:08:57 <mad> doing what sort of processing?
03:09:10 <Bike> what if we, like, used different CPUs for different kinds of programs,,, and, like, made it all super fast, man......................
03:09:13 <zzo38> I don't know entirely, but there are a few different kinds I was thinking of
03:09:27 <zzo38> Bike: You shouldn't have too many though
03:09:31 <pikhq> Bike: Well, if we could manage gigahertz FPGAs... :)
03:10:27 <Bike> i just want a computer made of acids :(
03:10:35 <mad> if you could 8 way superscalar execute MIPS code I'd be pretty impressed :o
03:10:35 <zzo38> One think I think of involves emulating 6502 or the old x86, other thing that could be done is Z-machine, you could also do mathematical things, possibly physics, graphics, audio, there are many things to do. Some kinds of things do not have to be as fast as other things, though.
03:11:24 <mad> 6502 is like impossible to optimize
03:11:34 <zzo38> You can see, therefore, that some things don't have to be so fast as other things, just because of the kind of programs
03:12:06 <zzo38> mad: Yes I know that, but it wouldn't have to be as fast as other things anyways
03:12:17 <Bike> or a neuromorphic machine, partly because "neurmorphic" sounds too cool to be real
03:12:26 <mad> yeah but that's why I'm asking what's your heavyest usage element
03:12:48 <mad> the parts that can be slow aren't really important and can be implemented any way
03:13:10 <mad> like if you start with a boring old MIPS it does ok at pretty much all of those things
03:13:23 <mad> (ok with an FPU for code that uses that)
03:14:29 <mad> (or maybe with some MAC/SIMD opcodes for sound processing instead)
03:14:44 <mad> you have to know what's the limiting factor
03:15:03 <mad> what's going to make a difference
03:15:39 <zzo38> I mean that you can simplify it and not implement a lot of things in hardware; implement most of in user microcodes, and then the microcodes can be designed so that things that are really complicated will run fast.
03:16:23 <mad> you can't really simplify a MIPS
03:17:41 <mad> a single issue MIPS is like a 2 port 32 register file wired more or less straight into a 32 bit ALU wired more or less straight into the data cache
03:18:36 <mad> With opcodes as close as possible to microcode
03:18:36 <pikhq> I dunno, I suspect you could simplify it slightly. But you'd be shuffling a few relatively inessential features.
03:19:17 <mad> you could take out the ADD instruction that does interrupts on overflows yeah
03:19:33 <mad> and probably the add carry instruction too (if I remember correctly)
03:19:34 <zzo38> I am not worried too much about speed, and consider simplicity of the implementation to be more important
03:19:41 <pikhq> MIPS definitely lacks gratuitous insanity, which already makes it, like, the simplest common ISA.
03:20:13 <mad> you could take out the multiplier
03:20:18 <mad> but then multiplies are a lot slower
03:20:34 <mad> you could take out the multiple memory access sizes
03:20:55 <mad> but then if you have something that does 8 or 16 bit accesses it becomes a lot slower
03:21:26 <mad> you could take out the memory ops that do address calculation
03:22:14 -!- ^v has changed nick to notmad.
03:22:19 <mad> but then you're using more registers and more instruction cache and also memory accesses become 2 cycles for real essentially
03:22:40 <mad> so it's a bad idea
03:23:53 <mad> (though I guess it would simplify implementation)
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03:27:35 <zzo38> It is why I suggested doing things such as programming the user program in microcodes
03:27:50 <mad> you could probably take out most immediates in instructions which would make it appreciably slower and use up registers but it would simplify the instruction set
03:28:24 <mad> using microcodes would definitely make it easier to implement
03:28:31 <mad> and maybe not slower
03:28:37 <mad> but harder to program also
03:28:49 <zzo38> Yes, that is why I suggest it; it make it easier to implement and not slower.
03:28:51 <mad> and it would have larger programs
03:30:04 <zzo38> You could still have the user program in the microcode to implement some instruction set for the rest of the program if it would help to do so for that particular program, but you don't have to, in case it won't help with that program
03:30:34 <mad> this sounds sorta like the itanium
03:30:40 <mad> which was VLIW-ish
03:30:50 <pikhq> mad: I'd be in favor of taking out immediates if you just wanted a "very simple" ISA.
03:30:54 <zzo38> Yes, VLIW is also part of the design I am thinking of to do
03:31:04 <mad> it actually worked kinda well for floating point code
03:31:06 <pikhq> But yes, I'll agree with your point (in essence)
03:31:21 <mad> but it was just worse than x86 for normal integer stuff
03:31:36 <pikhq> MIPS is about as simple as you can get without having to hit major tradeoffs.
03:32:20 <pikhq> Such as "eh, it'll be notably slower at any computations, but who cares"
03:32:23 <mad> due to larger instructions (= less instruction cache and instruction loading bandwidth), less crazy reordering and memory renaming etc
03:32:39 <mad> yeah it's kinda hard to take anything from MIPS
03:32:56 <mad> it's like, every thing it has is useful
03:33:28 <mad> inversely it's not that easy to add stuff to MIPS
03:33:40 <mad> aside from separate stuff like a FPU and a SIMD unit
03:34:01 <pikhq> And goofy stuff that you wonder why any human being would desire it.
03:34:15 <mad> any kind of thing you can add has a performance downside somewhere
03:34:44 <mad> in particular running out of register read ports
03:34:46 <pikhq> You could *totally* have a "x86 segmented address to physical address" instruction in there, it'd just be a bad idea. :)
03:35:03 <pikhq> Even *if* all you want to do with it is emulate 16-bit x86.
03:35:44 <mad> I'm pretty sure even x86 cpus have an extra cycle latency penalty somewhere if you use that stuff too
03:36:15 <pikhq> Oh, I imagine. There's rather a lot of x86 features floating around that you can only use at serious cost.
03:36:45 <mad> or at just enough cost that it's just not worth it
03:37:10 <pikhq> I mean, come on, x87 handles BCD.
03:37:27 -!- notmad has changed nick to ^v.
03:37:38 <mad> as in, you're not gaining anything over using the x86 as some kind of degenerate MIPS
03:38:19 <mad> I'm still not sure if the instructions that do a calculation + a memory load aren't worth it though
03:38:30 <mad> stuff like add eax, [ebx + 64]
03:40:11 <mad> it has a lot of downsides (it's 3 cycles+ latency and it has all the complexity of both a memory load and a calculation, plus it can require 3 register read ports)
03:40:30 <mad> but it's also kindof compact and useful and it's essentially 2 instructions in 1
03:40:53 <zzo38> The modern x86 set is really extremely too complicated
03:41:27 <pikhq> It's not designed, it's evolved.
03:41:48 <zzo38> And it is evolved badly too.
03:41:49 <Bike> perhaps it could use some selection pressure.
03:42:03 <Bike> actually, has there been any work on mechanical processor design
03:42:48 <mad> it could use some pruning yes
03:43:00 <mad> mostly some way of getting rid of 16bit mode
03:43:21 <Bike> you know, like evolving an instruction set where the fitness measurement is the average performance on some benchmark programs, or something.
03:43:35 <mad> and segment addressing if possible (which might be impossible due to being used in win32 programs)
03:43:38 <zzo38> No, the thing you should get rid of is things like Super Mario game in one instruction and so on
03:43:46 <zzo38> (x86 doesn't have that, but it has things almost as complicated)
03:44:02 <mad> x86 has BCD
03:44:21 <pikhq> x86 has BCD in multiple different ways.
03:44:23 <mad> which is retarded but at some point a bank wanted it so they got it
03:44:51 <pikhq> There's BCD on the normal registers *and* BCD in the x87 FPU.
03:45:05 <Bike> always wanted floating point bcd
03:45:16 <mad> I don't want to imagine the perf on x87 FPU :3
03:45:29 <mad> it's probably something monstruous like an interrupt on each operation
03:45:30 <pikhq> Oh, that's the funny part. It's not floating point.
03:45:41 <pikhq> x87 actually can be used as an integer unit as well.
03:45:57 <pikhq> 16, 32, and 64 bit ints.
03:46:08 <Bike> thank goodness i looked up the x87 pusher once and found out he's pretty much crazy.
03:46:10 <mad> heh, that's... horrible
03:46:59 <pikhq> Eh, not quite as bad as you'd expect at least. x87 float's mantissa is 64 bits.
03:47:34 <mad> what's the point of using the fpu for doing integer calculations
03:48:14 <Bike> but seriously anybody got an answer re: my random speuclating
03:48:15 <mad> didn't the 8087 have monstruously long cycle times?
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03:48:30 <carado> Just made myself a nice Read instance for (a -> b) using the hint package. I’ve been needing that.
03:48:47 <pikhq> Compared with doing 64-bit int add from your 16-bit ALU? :)
03:48:49 <zzo38> carado: How does that work?
03:49:03 <mad> pikhq: that's like 3 ADC's and an ADD
03:49:27 <carado> zzo38, the hint package allows one to interpret Haskell in Haskell using GHC as a library.
03:49:29 <mad> dunno how long that is on the 8086 but on the 286 and 386 that's not particularly long
03:49:45 <pikhq> But yeah, it's goofy.
03:49:58 <zzo38> carado: O, OK, I suppose that can work.
03:50:08 <mad> like 24 cycles if your operand is in memory
03:51:16 <pikhq> There were *non* 8087-compatible floating point coprocessors for the 8086
03:51:34 <zzo38> Yes, x86 is really stupid.
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03:51:56 <mad> x86 is still better than 6502
03:51:59 <pikhq> This worked because the 8086
03:52:09 <mad> and it's probably better than the z80
03:52:16 <zzo38> No, I think x86 is the most stupid one.
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03:52:29 <mad> the 6502 is impossible to pipeline
03:52:32 <pikhq> 's knowledge of floats was just looking for the sequence 0b11011.
03:52:48 <mad> the x86 has lots of cruft but it's pipelinable
03:52:58 <pikhq> We'd probably regret the 6502 a lot more than the x86 if it'd survived.
03:53:45 <Bike> 6502's 2013 version still has the page boundary bug,for compat :D
03:54:00 <mad> like, aside from the cruft and the memory-operation opcodes and no 3 operand opcodes, the x86 is still essentially an 8 register RISC
03:54:08 <pikhq> I can guarantee that the hacks on the 6502 would be at *least* as bad as x86.
03:54:31 <mad> like, you can turn the x86 into the pentium
03:54:44 <mad> which is actually pretty nice in many ways
03:54:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, they would, but that is why, don't do it.
03:54:59 <mad> you can't make a pentium version of the 6502
03:55:04 <mad> it's essentially unpossible
03:55:28 <Bike> don't upgrade 6502 by evolution for thirty years. got it.
03:55:44 <mad> you'd have to try something insane like turning the zero page into a register file
03:55:55 <Bike> that sounds awesomely shitty.
03:56:04 <zzo38> That is why, don't do such things; keep it as it is.
03:56:07 <pikhq> x86 is bad because you don't want to break DOS.
03:56:17 <zzo38> But DOS is not so bad.
03:56:19 <mad> and also combining multiple opcodes together into single opcodes
03:57:38 <mad> lda $60 + clcl + adc $64 + sta $68 => add r68h, r60h, r64h
03:59:09 <mad> I'm not familiar enough with the z80 but it has similar faults
03:59:36 <mad> mainly that they ran out of instructions super fast so it has instruction prefixes all over the place
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04:01:42 <mad> though it does have enough registers to compute stuff so it's probably a lot better than the 6502 still
04:01:43 <mad> like, afaik it's somewhere between the 6502 and the x86 in terms of design
04:01:43 <mad> 68000 might have been better than x86
04:02:20 <mad> it's at least an OK instruction set since they pipelined it and superscalared it
04:02:37 <mad> and I'm not sure if the separation between address and data registers is a good or a bad thing
04:03:36 <mad> it's slightly more CISC than x86 but it doesn't have 8bit opcodes (everything is multiples of 16 bits) and it definitely has less instruction set insanity
04:04:06 <mad> though it has opcodes that do like 4 thing and have debatable usefulness
04:06:01 <mad> then again it doesn't have real mode
04:07:35 <mad> zzo38 : anyhow
04:07:49 <mad> the mips has more or less ideal latency for everything (1 cycle)
04:08:09 <mad> (2 cycle for memory access since that's really an add then a load)
04:08:41 <mad> which means that the only real way to beat it is to do 2 or 3 or more things on each cycle
04:09:36 <mad> and then again you could just superscalarize the mips and make it 2-instructions per cycle
04:09:51 <mad> in which case you're once again not winning anything over the mips
04:14:17 <mad> essentially to win anything over the mips you need to be doing something like DSP
04:14:27 <mad> with hand coded assembly
04:14:48 <mad> and not too many load/stores
04:15:31 <mad> (if there are too many load/stores then the program becomes bottlenecked by memory bandwidth or something like that and then you're not faster than a MIPS)
04:15:43 <zzo38> Can you play Pokemon card?
04:16:23 <zzo38> Anyone that can play Pokemon card, please review some thing I wrote relating to it
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04:36:16 <zzo38> Do you know about "Worse-Is-Better" design?
04:42:00 <zzo38> It is also called New Jersey style.
04:42:42 <Bike> i forget, did the guy who wrote worse is better i forget his name like christopher alexander
04:43:18 <zzo38> Wikipedia says Richard P. Gabriel
04:44:04 <Bike> interesting guy. did some work on parallel code in lisp. trying to get straight how fucked he was wrt design though
04:44:10 <Bike> have you ever, like, seen christopher alexander's writing
04:46:48 <zzo38> I think too many programs in modern Linux systems are not implemented as a filter, even though they ought to be. The program "dvilj4" gives a help file when you invoke it with no arguments, although I think it ought to act like a filter
04:47:36 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy, / richard p. gabriel / said worse is better / (so better is worse); // turns out the worst, though -- / worse even than better -- is / how i decided to / finish this verse
04:48:57 <shachaf> Oops, that "(so" should be moved to the left of the /.
04:49:12 <kmc> aren't you supposed to have one line that's a single word? maybe that's why it's worse
04:52:46 <zzo38> mad: Do you have any idea relating to hardware programming languages?
05:07:40 <zzo38> I have written a few things of some of my ideas.
05:08:13 <zzo38> One thing I have is that numbers are specified in binary format by default (you need a prefix for decimal and hex).
05:12:33 <zzo38> Another is how module calls work; in Verilog you have module calls with names and I/O, but in HWPL (the name for my (incomplete) design), instead you have macro parameters in parentheses after the module name (the call itself has no name), and then after that you have the I/O vector (there is just one I/O vector).
05:14:35 <zzo38> (and the number of bits in the I/O vector is an implicit macro parameter)
05:15:04 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these kind of things?
05:19:52 <mad> kinda falling asleep atm :o
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05:41:01 <zzo38> It looks to me that SQL is almost suitable for text adventure games.
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06:03:04 <kmc> zzo38: do you think that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_Park is New Jersey Style
06:03:36 <zzo38> kmc: I may look later, not now
06:07:10 <shachaf> kmc: wavelet trees are neat
06:07:16 <kmc> what are they
06:07:18 <shachaf> you missed edwardk's explanation in -lens
06:07:30 <Bike> wavelets have to do with lens?
06:07:40 <shachaf> #-lens is more like #edwardk
06:08:02 <Bike> "It generalizes the \mathbf{rank}_q and \mathbf{select}_q operations defined on bitvectors to arbitrary alphabets." oh, that's nice.
06:08:30 <shachaf> I could probably paste the logs.
06:23:33 <shachaf> kmc: what are some nifty data structures and things
06:34:12 <kmc> skip lists
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06:37:17 <shachaf> i already know about those :'(
06:38:27 <kmc> work stealing queues
06:39:05 <kmc> fibonacci heaps (comedy answer)
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07:03:19 <sdile> Has anyone used Inline::C/ASM in Perl?
07:03:38 <sdile> Is it worth using for just getting the address ESP points to? I feel like I'm cheating if I start using inline ASM in C, since I haven't been introduced to it.
07:04:27 <zzo38> Cheating due to not being introduced to it?
07:05:58 <sdile> zzo38: I don't understand how it works, but I could read up on it.
07:06:11 <shachaf> I'm not sure what "getting the address ESP points to" means in your context exactly.
07:06:37 <sdile> shachaf: With regard to bufferoverflows/shellcode
07:06:52 <sdile> I feel like it's the same as ripping code.
07:07:19 <sdile> Do you think it's okay to just read up on it and use it, even if I haven't done it in K&R2?
07:07:49 <shachaf> I'm mostly not sure what you're on about.
07:10:50 <kmc> using some Perl thing to find the value of ESP within some Perl code would not be very helpful for exploiting a C program, I think
07:11:09 <kmc> I suggest you either learn the little bit of asm (it's not much) or do the hack of taking the address of a local variable, which will probably give you a number near ESP
07:11:20 <kmc> but I'm not really sure what you're on about, either
07:13:43 <sdile> kmc: What I'm up to is just pointers, memcpy() and inline ASM. Pointers and memcpy() is chapter 5 I'm pretty certain, inline ASM I can just read up on after that.
07:13:52 <sdile> I'm almost up to chapter 4, so I'll just have to speed through it.
07:14:22 <fizzie> I've used Inline::C for no particular reason. But I concur that getting the value of esp in an Inline::C function does not sound terribly useful.
07:16:32 <sdile> fizzie: It does sound ridiculous.
07:17:01 <sdile> fizzie: But, I felt like it's cheating if I used inline ASM in C.
07:17:12 <sdile> Since I'm not that far into it, yet.
07:17:36 <zzo38> My "TV plot" program has been updated; now you can make even more strange and/or interesting and/or bad movies.
07:25:08 <zzo38> sdile: Why do you need the address ESP points to?
07:25:34 <zzo38> It won't be very portable if you have ASM codes anyways
07:26:56 <zzo38> Not really so much.
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08:02:45 <zzo38> Is there some way to unreverb audio signal?
08:06:57 <sdile> I am trying to create a 'broken/vulnerable' encryption algorithm, in which one can obtain the key. http://pastebin.com/zj7b8Tsx
08:08:31 <zzo38> Why do you try to do that?
08:08:55 <sdile> Just for fun/learning
08:11:53 <zzo38> One idea I have is somehow have in addition to the normal key, to have a algorithm key, which can be used to recover the normal key.
08:12:01 <zzo38> I don't know how you would do this, though.
08:13:49 <fizzie> There are various dereverberation algorithms, it's a big field. None of them are perfect, of course.
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08:15:54 <fizzie> (And usually need some assumptions.)
08:17:05 <olsner> useful for speech recognition?
08:17:46 <zzo38> What if it isn't speech?
08:17:47 <fizzie> Might even be the context for majority of them.
08:18:48 <olsner> can't you just apply the inverse of the reverb? how hard can it be?
08:18:59 <fizzie> Some of them presumably would work up to some degree. Esp. the multi-microphone ones, but you might have just a single channel.
08:19:45 <fizzie> olsner: It's p. easy if you have a good estimate of the reverb.
08:22:16 <sdile> ( i.e. 4 // random number generated by toss of fair die
08:22:33 <sdile> i suppose if you use a block cipher with most of the block full of the same garbage in each block, then you will reveal the key
08:23:33 <sdile> if you poll /dev/random for 512 bits and compose blocks with the same 512 as fill....
08:25:39 <zzo38> You could try that, see if it is working
08:26:15 <Gracenotes> hum... spending over 1.5 hours writing a comment... exhausting
08:27:13 <Gracenotes> for Hackage, it's a bit of a dense one. https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/40#issuecomment-23773355
08:33:35 <sdile> for example. gen a key array; instead of target = xor(source[index],key_element[index])... do xor(source[index],key_element[index,index%N])
08:35:41 <zzo38> sdile: Why do you have both "index" and "index%N" for the "key_element" now?
08:36:43 <sdile> zzo38: take the same XOR code, but vary the key. the key is a keyset
08:36:51 <sdile> so instead of a 1d array, it's 2d.
08:37:54 <zzo38> OK, it certainly doesn't seem so useful (since not all of the array is in use, it would seem), unless you can vary N, or whatever
08:49:02 <sdile> zzo38: i am suggesting two dimenions, with the second being somewhat small (10, 20)
08:49:27 <zzo38> Yes, I know that already
08:50:49 <sdile> zzo38: but... in retrospect, i see that does not make it two dimensional, it just makes the other bytes redundat
08:51:00 <zzo38> Yes that is what I was saying
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09:24:03 <HackEgo> slist gamzee: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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13:34:10 <boily> good not-so-many-idlers-today morning!
13:35:51 <pikhq> Idling is the great international pastime. :)
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13:38:46 <HackEgo> azaq23: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:03:40 <boily> hi quintopia. still voiced?
15:03:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:04:08 <quintopia> yep. i will stay voiced until my vps crashes again
15:04:17 <quintopia> but that hasnt happened in a long time
15:05:06 <boily> how many nines can you expect from your vps? what are the k and λ of the crashes per year?
15:06:13 <quintopia> it never crashed until this year. i have no idea why it started happening, but it was often for a while there. probably some changes i made causing a recurring kernel panic.
15:10:34 <quintopia> sometimes people get emotionally estranged for subtle reasons. i doubt it is completely uncaused. what kinds of things have you been saying to steam the past few days?
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15:14:09 <Koen_> that's a trema but no one will notice
15:15:55 <boily> quintopia: I can umlautify random letters in my ongoing LaTeX project.
15:16:14 <boily> (they'll be real, certified authentic german-made umlauts. accept no substitute!)
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15:17:32 <boily> quintopia: also, if you're attempting to apply vodou on Phantom_Hoover with tréma, the rituals will... well... they'll work. but then there are Cönsequences.
15:18:38 <boily> no, I am not insane. the mayonnaise from that early morning BTL bagel from McDo didn't have no abverse effect on me whatsoever.
15:19:22 <quintopia> can't fool me with your sneaky double negatives
15:19:39 <boily> darn. foiled again!
15:22:37 * quintopia shoots a pineapple chunk at boily from a straw
15:23:42 * boily receives a ballistic fruit chunk on his head. “Hey!”
15:24:13 <quintopia> it's the only cure for mayo-induced insanity
15:25:05 * boily glares at quintopia じ〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜〜
15:29:15 <boily> I know where you (approẍimately) live! you won't get away! nyah. nyah ah ah. MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
15:30:19 <boily> (oh, ẍ is used in Kurdish for [ʁ]. interesting.)
15:32:08 <Koen_> rotated-and-flipped small-but-capital R
15:34:31 <boily> Koen_: the metropolitan French «r».
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15:36:00 <Koen_> just call it [r] then
15:36:30 <boily> in that case, it's [ʁ], but /r/.
15:36:47 <boily> (those phone{m,t}ic transliterations are confusing as fungot.)
15:36:47 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type is created containing the syntax for mark if he was really gonna get worse and worse each week, i fnord kara to hold me until i fell over, with much ado. your sister is the better part made mercie, i should think at least, that is expressions which have not been able to
15:37:37 <quintopia> boily: you don't know my current coordinates1
15:37:44 <Koen_> boily:are you implying that phonetics written as /.../ and [...] are two DIFFERENT languages?
15:38:51 <boily> Koen_: afaiu, the phonemic /.../ uses as many different symbols needed to differentiate all recognized sounds in a language, and then you have [...] for the exact realisation. itthth.
15:39:37 <boily> Koen_: so, whatever the way we each realise our «r»s, it'll be /r/ because French has a single «r» sound.
15:39:48 <Roujo> boily: Ohayou gozaimasu! =D
15:40:01 <Roujo> I can do some japanese, just... no kanjis =P
15:40:02 <boily> Roujo: say, do you roll your «r»?
15:40:10 <Roujo> boily: Define rolling
15:40:19 <Roujo> And if you just post SAMPA, it doesn't count
15:40:25 <Koen_> so there's a different /../ for every language, but there's a signle [...] and it's international?
15:40:46 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_trill
15:40:50 <Roujo> boily: Better yet! Record yourself, and I'll tell you
15:40:50 <boily> Koen_: something like that. there's some fuziness, depending on what you're analysing.
15:41:13 <Roujo> I can't do that >_>
15:41:30 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_uvular_fricative usual french r
15:41:32 <boily> Roujo: c'est pas compliqué pour moi. prend l'accent de québec.
15:41:40 <nooodl> maybe not in québec though
15:41:51 <Roujo> nooodl: That's how I say it, yeah
15:41:54 <boily> nooodl: I have a friend from the Beauce region who rolls her rs.
15:42:22 <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
15:42:50 <boily> `addquote <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
15:42:54 <HackEgo> 1101) <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
15:43:53 <Roujo> `run echo Uvular Fricative Expert, according to his girlfriend. *wink wink nudge nudge* > wisdom/koen_
15:43:58 <boily> nooodl: the trilled r still exists. your best bet for hearing it is to find a vicar.
15:44:27 <Roujo> Alright, what do you suggest, then?
15:45:05 <Koen_> Roujo: also are you sure you can use the character '*' in a parameter for echo without quotes?
15:45:22 <Roujo> Koen_: Nope. Didn't stop me, though =P
15:45:30 <Roujo> What's the worst that could happen?
15:45:56 <boily> Roujo: just to be sure, use a «*̈».
15:46:12 <Koen_> well it could run the command with every file that matches *wink and every file that matches nudge*, or something
15:46:34 <Roujo> boily: How the hell do you do these
15:46:59 <Roujo> Koen_: Using echo?
15:47:12 <Roujo> If I had done something like rm, then yeah
15:47:27 <Roujo> But echo... I don't see how it could break
15:47:38 <Roujo> Only one way to find out
15:47:43 <Roujo> (And no, that's not "man echo")
15:47:49 <Roujo> `run echo Test *test* test
15:47:56 <Roujo> `run echo Test *test* test > testing
15:47:58 <Koen_> Roujo: http://pastebin.com/RS5hV8JH
15:48:31 <boily> Roujo: candian multilingual standard keyboard layout, and iso level 3 abuse :D
15:48:48 <Roujo> Koen_: Oooh, nice. I see what you mean now.
15:49:00 <boily> (also, some customisation, UIM with Anthy, and a waaaaaay too permissive terminal)
15:49:01 <Roujo> I thought you said that it would overwrite all the files
15:49:10 <Koen_> oh no echo wouldn't do that
15:49:15 <Koen_> yeah I meant filename, not file
15:49:17 <Roujo> But I get what you mean now
15:49:42 <Roujo> I didn't know what could happen, I just figured that it wouldn't break anything other than that wisdom itself
15:52:00 <boily> Roujo: IPA input is a little bit more involved. I need a GTK app (usually leafpad) to select the input method, then copy&paste into weechat.
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16:15:46 <elliott> would anyone like to be banned??
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16:21:44 <Roujo> I'm trying to quit, really
16:22:00 <Roujo> A good... 6 minutes?
16:22:34 <Taneb> elliott, imo kick kmc he's bear
16:23:17 <elliott> maybe I'll kick glogbackup for not actually needing to be here.
16:23:21 <elliott> Gregor: will that break anything?
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16:33:01 <Bike> elliott kicks glogbot, freenode dies
16:33:25 <Bike> »Just got a PR pitch that described the act of placing a wet iPhone in a bag of rice to dry out as, "an old folk remedy."»
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16:34:08 <Bike> it's » » to represent moving towards the future, if you're wondering
16:34:12 <Bike> an arrow of quoted fact
16:34:20 <Bike> aimed directly at the heart of the past!
16:34:31 -!- elliott has kicked Bike thank you for giving me somebody to kick..
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16:34:53 <Bike> what just happened
16:35:03 <Bike> oh i got kicked wow
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16:35:09 <elliott> btw don't actually do anything unless it's amusing or oerjan will freak
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16:35:11 <Bike> that'll show you
16:35:28 -!- carado_ has changed nick to carado.
16:36:08 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
16:42:28 <Roujo> I take it oerjan is allergic to admin abuse?
16:43:04 <elliott> only when he doesn't do it, hth!
16:54:03 <Roujo> He's not even in here
16:56:30 <Koen_> and oerjan has a habit of reading through the logs when he arrives
16:56:39 <Koen_> hello, future oerjan
16:57:08 <Bike> sure would be unfortunate if something were to... happen to those logs, huh
16:57:16 <Bike> something like.................
16:57:22 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -v glogbackup.
16:57:39 <Koen_> they're still on tunes and codu
16:57:53 <Koen_> good luck with devoicing the server
16:58:05 <Bike> dude i said !!!!!
16:58:10 <Bike> get with the program. this is bikeland now.
16:58:30 <Koen_> you should edit `welcome then
16:59:09 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
17:00:09 -!- augur has joined.
17:00:18 -!- tromp__ has quit.
17:01:57 * Roujo sets mode -v codu.org
17:05:16 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:09:39 -!- Bike has joined.
17:09:50 <Bike> and so the glorious reign of bike ends.
17:10:10 <Bike> not with a bang, but with god why does it always take five minutes to connect here.
17:10:19 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o Bike.
17:11:10 <Roujo> Bike: You timed out 260 seconds after I devoiced the server, with a timeout of 256 seconds
17:11:15 <Roujo> I find that very suspicious
17:11:24 <boily> back from a phở and Bike is op. interesting.
17:11:49 <Bike> no. it's too late now.
17:11:56 -!- Bike has set channel mode: +o Roujo.
17:12:01 -!- Bike has set channel mode: -o Bike.
17:12:07 <Bike> i must leave the empire to another.
17:12:15 <Roujo> I will honor the empire
17:12:21 * boily feels suddenly, viscerally terrified
17:12:28 <Roujo> (I just want to see oerjan react to this =P)
17:12:47 -!- Roujo has set channel mode: +v boily.
17:12:54 <Roujo> Don't feel bad, young boily
17:12:59 <Bike> well, anyway, how's the pho
17:13:03 <boily> woo! back to voice!
17:13:11 <Bike> i have to talk about these things now that i'm merely a commoner
17:13:22 <boily> Bike: 'twas good. the thai pepper was still fresh and powerful.
17:13:33 <Bike> don't remember the last time i had pho really
17:13:38 <boily> Bike: beware of 3.5e cats. they can kill you.
17:13:42 <Bike> which is weird because i like noodles in general??
17:13:51 <Roujo> That's a nice operator
17:13:52 <Bike> imo give phantom halfop.
17:14:02 <Roujo> I don't think freenode supports half-ops
17:14:05 <boily> Bike: there are a few places where you can get handmade ramen for cheap.
17:14:05 <Bike> %Phantom_Hoover
17:14:18 <Bike> hand made ramen? sewn out of raw tree
17:14:19 <Roujo> "h: is an unknown mode char to me"
17:14:41 <Bike> the server can talk?
17:14:46 <Roujo> E replied that when I tried to half-op Phantom_Hoover
17:15:01 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o Roujo.
17:15:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v boily.
17:15:05 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v kmc.
17:15:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v quintopia.
17:15:09 * Bike feels suddenly, viscerally terrified
17:15:22 <Roujo> Thus ended the Reign of Roujo the Lachinois
17:15:38 <Bike> who dares, and how can i properly demonstrate my fealty to them
17:16:03 <Roujo> That's double talk for "suck up to them", right?
17:16:15 <Bike> single talk, really
17:21:48 <boily> `run echo "拉麵是一種類型的麵條縫製從原始樹木。" >wisdom/ramen
17:22:04 <boily> because I hate myself and need more latexian challenges.
17:25:14 <boily> oh, and one more thing: elliott, you are oppressing me. check your privileges.
17:27:24 <Roujo> `run fsck /dev/privilege
17:27:25 <HackEgo> bash: fsck: command not found
17:27:35 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:34:33 <boily> `run cksum /dev/privilege
17:34:34 <HackEgo> cksum: /dev/privilege: No such file or directory
17:34:42 <boily> `run cksum wisdom/ramen
17:34:44 <HackEgo> 1845405672 55 wisdom/ramen
17:35:30 <Roujo> `run cksum /dev/random > bin/fsck
17:35:39 -!- Guest18414 has joined.
17:35:50 <Roujo> An echo was supposed to get in there
17:36:11 <Roujo> Also, /dev/urandom
17:36:25 <Bike> /dev/evenmorerandom
17:36:44 <HackEgo> cat: bin/fksk: No such file or directory
17:36:49 <boily> Guest18414: who are you? why don't you echo? did you check the Random Check? how does the aftertaste of a mouthful of algæ feel?
17:37:02 <Roujo> `run echo cksum /dev/random > bin/fsck
17:37:07 <Roujo> `run echo cksum /dev/urandom > bin/fsck
17:37:14 <Roujo> `relcome Guest18414
17:37:17 <HackEgo> Guest18414: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:37:31 <metasepia> Your divination: "Small Exceeding" to "Conjoining"
17:37:36 <metasepia> Your divination: "Parting" to "Articulating"
17:37:43 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:37:45 <Bike> stop doing it more than once...........
17:37:49 <boily> Bike: small exceeding is more conjoining than dogs.
17:37:57 <Roujo> Well, I don't want *his* divination
17:38:01 <boily> Roujo: do not consume more than your fair share of yiïtude.
17:38:31 <Roujo> boily: Is one more than a fair share?
17:38:37 <elliott> Bike: it said small exceeding
17:38:44 <boily> Roujo: dunno. ask Bike.
17:38:45 <elliott> a small exceeding of the amount of ~yis is therefore indicated
17:38:53 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/fsck: Permission denied
17:39:10 <Roujo> `run chmod +x bin/fsck
17:41:28 <Roujo> The BotVerse broke
17:41:36 <Roujo> Singularity is imminent
17:41:36 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:41:43 -!- metasepia has joined.
17:41:48 <metasepia> CYUL 041709Z 21008KT 15SM -SHRA FEW020 BKN030 OVC090 17/14 A2986 RMK SC2SC3AC3 SLP111 DENSITY ALT 400FT
17:42:10 <boily> phew. and here I thought even the weather was borken.
17:44:30 <Roujo> Don't mention the raining squirrels
17:44:34 <Roujo> They don't like that up there
17:45:40 <boily> one of the first thing I noticed when I moved to Montréal was the humongous megasquirrels.
17:45:59 -!- PixelToast has changed nick to dan200.
17:46:30 -!- augur has joined.
17:52:00 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
17:52:57 <boily> okay, so `learn is once again acting weird.
17:53:48 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
17:58:47 <boily> I'm lagging behind... time to upgrade!
17:59:03 <Roujo> `run sudo apt-get upgrade boily
17:59:04 <HackEgo> bash: sudo: command not found
17:59:21 <Roujo> `run which apt-get
17:59:22 <HackEgo> The Treaty on `lists treats how to `list our treats.
17:59:30 <Roujo> `run apt-get upgrade boily
17:59:32 <HackEgo> W: Unable to read /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ - DirectoryExists (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Could not open lock file /var/lib/dpkg/lock - open (2: No such file or directory) \ E: Unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/), are you root?
18:00:35 -!- fsioufosud has joined.
18:00:39 <boily> `relcome fsioufosud
18:00:42 <HackEgo> fsioufosud: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:04:32 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:05:02 <Roujo> I guess he fell off
18:10:10 <kmc> this compiler command line is... 16,840 characters long
18:10:58 <Roujo> That's a bit frightening
18:11:16 <Roujo> You just got to the point where you almost need to optimize *that* before compiling
18:12:23 <boily> you know something went horribly wrong when you have a novella in a compiler line...
18:12:48 <kmc> yeah... I wonder what the maximum command line length is on this system
18:12:53 <olsner> most compilers support a response file to put the command line when you reach the OS limit
18:13:08 <olsner> presumably because some projects inevitably actually need it
18:13:17 <Roujo> What does it look like?
18:13:23 <Roujo> Why would you get to that point?
18:13:43 <elliott> linking anything with a huge number of modules, for example
18:13:44 <olsner> add files, add more files, keep adding more files, and eventually you get there
18:13:46 <Roujo> Admitedly, I don't compile stuff using the command line
18:13:58 <Roujo> So I don't even kno-- oh
18:14:02 <Roujo> Yeah, simple enough
18:14:34 <Roujo> compiler -f file.cpp file2.cpp ... filen-1.cpp filen.cpp
18:14:58 <olsner> some projects use absolute paths, recursive symlinks, redundant ../ components in paths, etc to reach the limit faster
18:15:27 <kmc> it has a lot of things like -L/home/keegan/proj/servo/servo/build/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/src/support/png/rust-png/src/.libs -Wl,-rpath,/home/keegan/proj/servo/servo/build/x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu/src/support/png/rust-png
18:15:38 <kmc> for each of like two dozen libraries
18:15:43 <kmc> also some of them are just repeated I think
18:16:31 -!- yorick has joined.
18:17:38 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:19:45 -!- fsioufosud has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:20:05 -!- xxx has joined.
18:20:09 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:21:39 <HackEgo> xxx: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:26:49 -!- Bike has joined.
18:30:20 <boily> Roujo: a Bike falling off a Bike. I'm ashamed it took me that long to understand it.
18:31:36 <Bike> can i help you
18:33:07 <Roujo> [14:04:32] Bike [~Glossina@wl-nat115.it.wsu.edu] has quit IRC: Ping timeout: 240 seconds
18:33:07 <Roujo> [14:05:01] <Roujo> I guess he fell off
18:33:13 <Roujo> That is all, really
18:33:41 <Roujo> I didn't claim otherwise
18:33:56 <Roujo> It was a spur-of-the-moment thing
18:34:09 <Roujo> Nothing too serious
18:35:14 <boily> zzo38: I don't think this channel supports extended help. you're stuck with regular help here. hth.
18:35:52 <Roujo> `run man #esoteric
18:35:54 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:38:30 -!- tromp has joined.
18:40:01 <HackEgo> tromp: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:40:36 <Roujo> `run cat /dev/random > /dev/boily
18:40:38 <HackEgo> bash: /dev/boily: Read-only file system
18:41:12 <boily> Bike: I formatted your quotes in the wisdom pdf.
18:42:03 <Roujo> boily: Why are you read-only. Why can't you change.
18:42:15 <Roujo> I gave you the chance to change. I was there for you.
18:42:24 <Roujo> I only asked little things every now and then
18:42:27 <boily> Bike: I just need to format that }-ful part, but otherwise I think everything else is fine.
18:42:28 <Roujo> I just wanted to be happy, for once
18:42:41 <Bike> is this in the topic
18:42:44 <boily> Roujo: it's a temporary maintenance measure.
18:42:50 <Roujo> But apparently, I'm not even enough for you to do that
18:42:59 <Roujo> Who will be enough, boily?
18:43:04 <Roujo> Who will you change for?
18:43:21 <boily> Roujo: uhm... my SO, I guess?
18:43:58 <boily> Roujo: tu peux toujours aussi faire un tour à soir à La Récréation (coin St-Denis / Ontario). y'a une soirée jeux organisée pour le festival OUMF.
18:44:22 <Roujo> J'aime bien les envolées pseudo-lyriques
18:44:22 <Bike> boily: "The People Wisom"?
18:45:11 <boily> Bike: yes? should I have titled the chapter “The Moving Thingies Wisdom”?
18:45:32 <Bike> is it not "Wisdom"
18:45:39 <Roujo> boily: J'ai un peu un souper avec ma SO, en fait =P
18:45:47 <boily> Bike: oh. right. stupid typo.
18:45:57 <Roujo> 'faut dégeler le poulet et tout
18:46:09 <Bike> also, ais's quotes at least aren't all newlined, oh no
18:46:20 <boily> Roujo: dans ce cas là, m'a te souhaiter un bon dégelage bien romantique et tout et tout :D
18:46:35 <boily> Bike: I know, it was only a first attempt. I'm handreformatting everything.
18:47:00 <boily> bah. only a kiloquote all in all. nothing too long.
18:47:13 <Roujo> boily: Le poulet, c'est pour demain. Ce soir, c'est du saumon qui a mariné toute la journée. =3
18:47:25 <boily> Roujo: oooooooooooh! yummy!
18:50:12 -!- conehead has joined.
18:51:52 <boily> hmm... obscure people are archæologically referenced in antique quotes.
18:52:52 <zzo38> Do you know of Z-Comp?
18:53:30 <boily> Bike: I was there when itidus was. I'm talking even more earlier in the Early Times.
18:53:50 <Bike> that's earlier than me so it probably didn't actually happen
18:53:55 <Bike> hopefully this makes things easier for you.
18:54:14 <boily> I'm used to things not existing. you know, Canada and all that sort of thing.
18:55:06 <zzo38> If you want to enter Z-Comp then you have to enter by Saturday, 28 Sep 2013, 07:14:36 PM EDT. Do so if you are interested to make a computer game for Z-machine. There is two ways to enter, either make account in ifMUD and fill the form, or just write a message to me about your entry and I will put it in for you.
18:56:16 <zzo38> Are you interest to write computer games following the limitation of Z-machine?
18:56:49 <zzo38> The current theme (which is optional, and can be conjunctive or disjunctive at your choice) is: Richardson fire // 2009-10 Leicester City F.C. season // Merciful to gibbering mouthers and the other monsters
18:57:14 <zzo38> The first two are random Wikipedia article titles. The third is from a file I wrote myself (it is secret).
18:58:23 -!- ff34 has joined.
18:58:47 <HackEgo> ff34: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:59:04 <zzo38> Do you have a color computer?
18:59:17 <boily> zzo38: I already visited your muddy apartment. the z-compo sounds very interesting, but I fear my free time is quite limited :(
18:59:36 <boily> my computer is a thinkpad. I fear it has no colour.
18:59:54 -!- xxx has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:00:14 <zzo38> boily: Ah. Well, it is recurring (with different themes each time, although the themes from my list will be eventually repeated if they weren't used yet in a submitted game)
19:01:58 <zzo38> Do you know when you do have time?
19:02:00 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:02:42 <zzo38> boily: Did you see all of the rooms in my ifMUD apartment yet though?
19:03:46 <boily> when the time gets grasped, it will be had. a carp a day, and a pickled salmon.
19:04:04 <boily> zzo38: exploring MUDs is even more time consuming than seeing everything in Riven.
19:04:38 <zzo38> That doesn't help about the time. Do you know approximately the time in terms of calendar, perhaps?
19:06:36 <boily> December at the earliest.
19:06:54 <zzo38> Do you like this theme or do you like a different theme?
19:08:22 <boily> I like the fire, the mouthers, but my general knowledge of Leicester is quite limited.
19:09:03 <zzo38> That is OK; you needn't use all of them (or any of them); combine them for a challenge or just use a single one if you prefer
19:09:43 <boily> firebreathing mouthers from outer space... RECYCLED IN SPACE!!!
19:10:29 <Roujo> cat boily | echo > boily
19:13:10 <zzo38> I have decided to make this theme file public anyways http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/zcomptheme.txt
19:13:46 <boily> another defunct artefact from olden times.
19:14:37 <Roujo> http://www.reddit.com/user/GreyKnight
19:14:49 <Roujo> One comment, two years ago
19:15:55 <boily> you won't find me on reddit :P
19:16:54 <Roujo> Bravo pour la rébellion
19:17:04 <Roujo> C'est toujours bien, se rebeller dans /r/___
19:17:20 -!- Bike has joined.
19:17:57 <zzo38> boily: Do you like any of these themes?
19:18:48 <boily> zzo38: I... think you asked me that one already. tdh, twh, hth, and a good dose of déjà vu.
19:19:16 <zzo38> I did write the same question but the context is different now so it is a different kind of question really
19:19:45 <boily> oh. contextually, yes. /r/___ is quite original, and I've yet to meet somebody from Ireland.
19:20:15 <boily> @tell cpressey I'm gel-ing your aloofness.
19:20:17 <zzo38> I mean the file I just made public
19:20:53 -!- ff34 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:21:36 <boily> zzo38: oh. that link went straight through my blind spot. lemme check that...
19:21:37 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:22:14 <boily> @tell zzo38 “Automynorcagrammatical” what the fungot... I like that one.
19:22:14 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there it is, in case he doesn't want you to the ancients, right. some numbers, perhaps, it may be said that particularly here, parliament will give a single instance,
19:43:42 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
19:44:34 <boily> btw, how's jsvine's II going?
19:48:29 <olsner> I don't know but maybe fungot
19:48:29 <fungot> olsner: more simply put: siod sucks as a general purpose ( similar, and i'd like to see that mystical forest powers, but this time on the impact of the introduction to theoretical computer, fnord of the fnord here, just above me, asked me to do that in the " better" language
19:48:35 <boily> mtve: are you still idling? kitty, kitty, kitty, kitty...
19:49:21 <boily> @tell jsvine siod, mystical forest powers, introduction impacts and some fnords.
19:50:32 <boily> time for the Daily LaTeX Question: anyone ever did big O notation?
19:50:49 <boily> Roujo: a fnord. basic unit of “you didn't see that”.
19:50:50 <Roujo> Nah, it never came up
19:51:21 <boily> the fnord is the quintessential invisible word. if you see it, then you don't.
19:52:02 <Roujo> But I use "the" all the time
19:53:55 * boily lobs a whole pineapple over at Roujo's head.
19:54:10 <olsner> the fnord is one of the first visible signs of invisibility
19:56:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:06:43 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:11:27 <olsner> is the plural of hiatus hiati?
20:12:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:13:10 <Taneb> olsner, if you're being pedantic it's "hiatus"
20:13:28 <olsner> but that's the same as the singular
20:13:52 <Taneb> Yeah, Latin is a weird language and English ate a lot of its weirdness
20:14:06 <Taneb> "hiatuses" is acceptable in English
20:14:42 <boily> one hiatu, two hiatus, three hiatuses.
20:15:58 <olsner> and then four hiatusesu, five hiatusesus, six hiatuseses?
20:17:33 <Taneb> olsner, you are getting the hang of this
20:18:01 <Taneb> So we just wait until suffixirth
20:18:36 -!- Bike has joined.
20:20:05 <nooodl> "hiatuses" is "your best bet" here
20:20:52 <Taneb> nooodl, unless you're against a pedant
20:21:04 <Taneb> olsner, if anyone tells you "hiati", they are wrong
20:21:17 <nooodl> Taneb: nah you just ignore dumb people hth
20:21:33 <HackEgo> 187) <elliott> </pedant> ... come to think of it, <pedant>
20:21:59 <nooodl> i'm thinking of examples where "englishifying" a latin word, grammatically, sounds really bad...
20:22:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:22:35 <nooodl> imo "matrixes" is weird?
20:23:17 <oerjan> matrices is the usual plural, no?
20:23:37 <Bike> matrix means uterus in latin? ok then
20:23:50 <kmc> and in spanish (or something like it)
20:23:50 <oerjan> yay only spam in my inbox today
20:23:51 <nooodl> also "indices", "vertices". whereas "indexes" and "vertixes" are kinda dumb-looking
20:24:09 <Bike> wiktionary says the latin plural of "mātrīx" is "mātrīcēs"
20:24:15 <olsner> what's the plural of asterix?
20:24:16 <Bike> pick a different example?
20:24:34 <Bike> asteripodes, rather
20:25:07 <nooodl> Bike: i don't see the issue
20:25:20 <nooodl> i'm not talking about "-us" -> "-i" in specific, if that's what you mean
20:25:23 <oerjan> (makes it so quick to read, you know)
20:25:30 <Bike> nooodl: you're not "englishifying" anything, the latin was originally "matrixes"
20:25:47 <nooodl> but it's not, it's martices
20:26:09 <oerjan> -x -> -ces is pretty regular 3rd declension.
20:26:23 <oerjan> (you can also get -ges, though.)
20:26:38 <Bike> wait, i misread.
20:26:41 <Bike> wow, fuck, nevermind. bye
20:27:04 <olsner> if that's a *de*clension, is -ces -> -x a clension?
20:27:25 <nooodl> something tells me i can't be original here
20:27:34 <Taneb> olsner, I think it's an aclension
20:27:53 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3855
20:28:09 <oerjan> olsner: i decline to answer that.
20:29:16 <oerjan> `run fgrep '[a-z]' bin/*
20:29:30 <oerjan> `run fgrep '[A-Z]' bin/*
20:29:55 <HackEgo> bin/anonlog: grep -P -i -- "$1" ????-??-??.txt | shuf -n 1| sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ bin/anonlog: echo "$file:$(grep "<.*>" $file | shuf -n 1)" | sed "s=<[^>]*> ==" \ bin/define: grep -A 3 'Definitions of' | \ bin/etymology: grep -A 100 ']'"$1" | \ bin/google: grep -A 4 'Search Results' | \ bin/js:isOpenJDK=`$JAVA_CMD -version 2>&1 | gre
20:30:31 <olsner> hmm, it seems declension does mean something about bending, which is the swedish word for it
20:31:15 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:31:17 * oerjan was briefly wondering whether the grep localization madness from yesterday affected any HackEgo commands.
20:31:45 <olsner> I missed grep localization madness? awwww
20:32:04 <oerjan> `run echo TEST | grep '[a-z]'
20:33:31 <oerjan> basically, grep [.-.] uses the local collation order to determine which letters are in between - so when that collation order is case insensitive, things get included unexpectedly.
20:33:49 <oerjan> `run echo ZZZ | grep '[a-z]'
20:33:59 <oerjan> now guess why this _doesn't_ print :P
20:34:56 <olsner> `run echo YYY | grep '[a-z]'
20:35:16 <oerjan> (btw you can still use [:upper:] and [:lower:] slightly more portably.)
20:36:06 <olsner> brr, grep shouldn't use locales
20:36:08 <olsner> I use grep in scripts and don't want it to be weird
20:36:14 <boily> `run echo ZZZ | grep -Finr '[a-z]'
20:36:23 <boily> `run echo ZZZ | grep -Einr '[a-z]'
20:36:37 <boily> `run echo ééé | grep -Einr '[a-z]'
20:37:02 <oerjan> olsner: just unset all the environment variables, _so_ simple.
20:37:22 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
20:37:52 <boily> `run echo øøø | grep -Ei '[a-z]'
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20:38:06 <boily> `run echo ẍẍẍ | grep -Ei '[a-z]'
20:38:30 <olsner> using -i doesn't exactly demonstrate the weirdness
20:38:43 <boily> `run echo ẍẍẍ | grep -E '[a-z]'
20:38:51 <boily> `run echo ẍẍẍ | grep '[a-z]'
20:39:08 <boily> `run echo ꝑꝑꝑ | grep '[a-z]'
20:40:38 <oerjan> olsner: oh actually LC_ALL takes precedence over the rest, so just set that.
20:41:23 <olsner> actually, I don't mind if weird localized people get broken results, they should just learn english and set their locale to C
20:41:44 <boily> (that was a norwegian bleh, mind you.)
20:41:51 <olsner> boily: are you weird and localized?
20:42:18 <boily> olsner: définitivement.
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20:43:24 <boily> the approximants. they disagree with my tongue.
20:45:40 <boily> right. approximants in Danish, weird vowels in Swedish, and I'm confused by the nynorsk/bokmål dichotomy.
20:45:55 <oerjan> looking at the grep man page, it actually describes this [a-z] weirdness quite explicitly.
20:46:47 <oerjan> nynorsk has slightly more interesting vowels.
20:48:18 <olsner> I think förträffligt starts with [fœ̞ˈʈ]
20:48:34 <oerjan> for example, en:the arabs = bm:araberne = nn:arabarane
20:49:57 <oerjan> = dk:araberne = sv:arabarna , MAYBE
20:51:37 <boily> and while we're at it, do we have a local Iceland representant?
20:52:23 <olsner> boily: I don't know what the Sundanese word is
20:53:07 <metasepia> Sundance Resort is a ski resort located 13 miles northeast of Provo, Utah on Mount Timpanogos in Utah's Wasatch Range.
20:53:29 <olsner> but I do know that sundanese is one of those languages that calls itself bahasa/basa something
20:53:37 <oerjan> boily: also re approximants: rødgrød med fløde
20:54:05 <boily> oerjan: the canonical approximant shibboleth.
20:55:06 <oerjan> also swedish has the sje-sound.
20:55:18 <boily> oh, the curvy-taily h.
20:56:16 <boily> we have [œ̃], which even metropolitan French has lost.
20:56:24 <oerjan> and many norwegian dialects, including mine, have the "thick" l (it's also in some swedish.)
20:56:37 <boily> oerjan: thick l, as in Klingon?
20:56:51 <oerjan> and both norwegian and swedish are full of retroflexes.
20:57:14 <oerjan> boily: i am not familiar with the klingon pronunciation.
20:57:24 <HackEgo> 923) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just like welsh ll" or "that's just like klingon tlh"
20:57:53 <oerjan> i don't think norwegian thick l is close to either of them.
20:58:01 <olsner> is this the thick l? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_lateral_approximant
20:58:09 <oerjan> it's a retroflex lateral flap, or something like that.
20:59:57 * boily does «lll... llllll... *choke* ghlllll...»
21:00:04 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
21:00:21 <nooodl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_flap apparently it is
21:00:40 <nooodl> it sounds very un-/ɭ/-like...
21:01:03 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology#Consonants lists both your and the flap and says they're allophones.
21:01:21 <olsner> I'd consider the retroflex flap the thick one
21:01:31 <olsner> the one I linked is just an l I think
21:02:19 <oerjan> well, the one you linked is the one you'd expect from -rl- sandhi in a dialect which has retroflexes but _not_ the genuine flap.
21:03:21 <olsner> hmm, yeah, it should be according to the text, but the sample didn't sound very 'rl'y
21:03:21 <oerjan> ah, i think i use it instead of the flap in some positions, like "forlag".
21:03:34 <boily> seems Québec French and Japanese are the only (at least semi-major) languages which have unvoiced vowels.
21:05:17 <boily> elliott: you are conal.
21:06:08 <boily> elliott: you are also completely insane.
21:06:32 <boily> editting those quotes by hand reveals a *lot* of information on y'all.
21:07:02 <Bike> what is revealed about i, bike
21:07:47 <boily> eeeeh... I recall reformatting your quotes earlier today. vaguely.
21:08:12 <boily> you are Bike, I guess. also, I nobody should touch your eyes again. last time was scary.
21:08:35 <oerjan> Bike: your complete disregard of english grammar
21:08:59 <Bike> is it revealed that i should do my vhdl assignment
21:09:14 <boily> Bike: disregard vhdl, acquire insanity.
21:09:51 <Bike> i was already reading about auditory hallucinations earlier!!
21:11:17 <olsner> it seems we have nothing on this topic
21:11:33 <olsner> maybe you hallucinated it?
21:11:42 <Bike> not... i wasn't reading them /here/
21:12:20 <olsner> well, if it was hallucinated you didn't really read at all, anywhere
21:15:07 <oerjan> `run echo "You are just imagining this wisdom entry." >wisdom/hallucination
21:16:11 <Bike> i said auditory
21:16:24 <boily> Bike: the wisdom *is* auditory.
21:16:40 <oerjan> when boily gets finished with it, anyway.
21:18:53 <boily> oerjan: just went through elliott's quotes. the pdf is updated. that was one hardcore reformatting session.
21:19:00 <olsner> auditory wisdom will have fun with `? szoup
21:19:17 * boily szmackzs olsner with a wooden laddle.
21:19:59 <olsner> oerjan: igen! igen? jag missade första gången isåfall
21:20:20 <oerjan> itt swedish-hungarian puns
21:20:49 <boily> Roujo: t'as pas un jeu de mots poche avec du hongrois à travers qui traine dans le coin, par hasard?
21:21:34 <olsner> something about words for traversing a train of coins?
21:21:50 <oerjan> boily: i recommend using something with "harmadik"
21:22:25 <olsner> oerjan: I think I missed the hungarian part of that pun
21:23:53 <boily> olsner: «jeu de mots»: pun. «poche»: sl. of bad quality. «à travers»: sl. through, mixed in. «traine»: to be left about. «coin»: corner, random place, spot.
21:24:03 <oerjan> olsner: igen, hogy ezt tetted.
21:24:13 <HackEgo> 33) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that
21:24:36 <olsner> the szoup quote was harder to find than I expected because it fails to even mention the hungarian word for soup
21:25:03 <oerjan> olsner: ...because that is the one word i replaced XD...
21:26:05 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Ngevd.
21:26:32 -!- Ngevd has changed nick to Taneb.
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21:29:21 <kmc> elliott: you de-voiced me
21:29:39 <olsner> it seems hungarian now only wants two hogy in that sentence
21:30:20 <oerjan> i am uncertain about the hogy in my answer above, too.
21:30:57 <oerjan> of course the joke, back then, was that hogy is a grammatical word with several different meanings.
21:31:19 <oerjan> well, part of it, anyway.
21:31:27 <kmc> "hogy hogy hogy hogy" gives me "how to make"
21:31:35 <kmc> but any more than that is just "that that that that that..."
21:31:58 <oerjan> i got "how to make it"
21:32:09 <kmc> statistical translation is pretty funny... Google used to translate Latin "quid pro quo" as "What happens in Vegas"
21:32:39 <oerjan> oh wait, the capitalization was different
21:32:59 <oerjan> kmc: heh that almost makes some kind of sense
21:35:28 <oerjan> A harmadik ember is apparently the correct translation of a certain film title.
21:36:22 <oerjan> http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%80%9EHarmadik_ember%E2%80%9D-%C3%A9rv
21:36:49 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/WWII.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/WWI-re.png
21:37:23 <Bike> oh, the powers
21:37:57 <Bike> why is burma labeled as axis but not france?
21:39:08 <Bike> same with ethiopia, etc etc.
21:41:03 <oerjan> um that's thailand, not burma.
21:41:26 <oerjan> and ethiopia was invaded by italy.
21:41:34 <kmc> I guess the blue dots are countries that got invaded and occupied by the Axis during the war?
21:41:37 <kmc> looks less one-sided then
21:41:47 <Bike> god damn it, do i seriously not still have southeast asia straight ;_;
21:41:51 <kmc> was there much action in South America, or the southern half of Africa?
21:42:11 <kmc> Madagascar got invaded by the British
21:42:11 <Bike> no oerjan's right
21:42:25 <Bike> burma just has a dot
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21:42:38 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeppelin_LZ_104#Africa_flight
21:42:42 <kmc> (WW I naturally)
21:43:01 <Bike> anyway this thing counts manchuria as axis too, so i don't get the difference between "axis" and "occupied"
21:43:15 <Bike> i guess you could say ethiopia and manchuria were invaded before the war, but that's kinda arbitrary
21:43:41 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not particularly, where else do you draw the line
21:44:02 <kmc> well it's more about where you draw the line of when the war started, no?
21:44:08 <Bike> right that's what i meant
21:44:16 <Bike> some people count the sino-japanese war as part of wwii, and so on
21:44:48 <oerjan> Bike: you can claim you were confused by bangladesh not being a separate country
21:45:09 <Phantom_Hoover> never actually realised burma and bangladesh shared a border
21:45:24 <Bike> oerjan: no, i really should have this straight by now, it's pathetic.
21:45:31 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: burma is very mean to bangladeshi migrants.
21:46:00 <Bike> and also people who are de facto burmese but they say are bangladeshi sooooo
21:46:48 <oerjan> hey, _someone_ has to do the job of breaking the illusion that buddhists are more peaceful than muslims.
21:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> that bangladesh is bad enough that people want to leave for burma doesn't really surprise me, but it's still a grim juxtaposition
21:47:14 <Bike> "By 1941 it became illegal, among other things, to ridicule those who attempted to promote national customs" sounds enforceable
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21:47:55 <Bike> oerjan: that's... one way to think about it :V
21:48:58 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: bangladesh turns back refugees from arakan too. it's kind of shitty all around!
21:49:39 <Bike> hm, maybe my problem is that arakan looks kind of like thailand
21:49:39 <Phantom_Hoover> that doesn't surprise me either (even before i found my way to the wp page on the rohingya)
21:50:38 <Bike> with that little spiny outpost in the lower right, i mean, except thailand's is more curvy
21:50:51 <Bike> well, i guess burma looks like that too.
21:50:54 <Bike> anyway. pathetic
21:59:28 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
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22:10:21 <oerjan> `run echo Test *test* test
22:10:51 <oerjan> Roujo: it only worked the first time because you hadn't made the testing file yet
22:12:13 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:12:58 -!- Koen_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:13:13 -!- Koen_ has joined.
22:14:07 <oerjan> <Koen_> hello, future oerjan <-- hi
22:14:49 <Koen_> so how was the future?
22:15:05 <Koen_> we can call it the past now then
22:15:07 <Bike> i feel let down.
22:15:30 <Koen_> Bike: so i take it you've been lobbied against then
22:15:35 <oerjan> Bike: i haven't got to your real abuse yet, will probably punish you afterwards
22:16:26 <oerjan> i don't know, i haven't got to it yet
22:16:27 <Bike> the empire of bike happened
22:16:31 <Bike> it ws glorious
22:17:44 <Koen_> oh so you're still the future oerjan
22:17:54 <Koen_> it's not in the past yet
22:19:02 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:19:24 -!- sebbu has joined.
22:23:15 <oerjan> Bike: looks like it was cut short
22:23:41 <Bike> well, elliott gave me op back for some reason.
22:23:46 <Bike> but the empire's spirit was dead by then.
22:24:03 <oerjan> the ghost of empires past
22:24:11 * Bike weeps for his power
22:24:29 <oerjan> ...ok now i'm imagining a christmas carol with scrooge replaced by hitler.
22:25:51 <oerjan> `run WeLcOmE OriginalOldMan | rainbow
22:25:54 <HackEgo> OrIgInAlOlDmAn: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
22:26:42 <oerjan> that was a particularly light choice of colors today
22:27:09 <shachaf> `run relcome OriginalOldMan | rainbow
22:27:12 <HackEgo> OriginalOldMan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:27:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainbow
22:27:30 <shachaf> was hoping for something more disastrous
22:28:14 <oerjan> shachaf: rainbow is designed to potentially fill up the line with color chars, so repeating it should have little effect
22:29:07 <oerjan> `run echo Testing | rainbow | rainbow #This might work
22:29:22 <shachaf> Yes, that's the kind of thing I was hoping to see.
22:29:40 <oerjan> "Testing" is too short for rainbow to fill up the line with colors
22:29:57 <Bike> `run ? Bike | rainbow | rainbow
22:30:00 <HackEgo> 06B1i06ke11 8is4 f10r2o8m13 06Lu2xe11m02b4o08u09rg11.
22:30:13 <oerjan> since it doesn't do redundant color changes in sequence
22:30:23 <Bike> `run ? Bike | rainbow | rainbow | rainbow | rainbow | rainbow
22:30:26 <HackEgo> 0507B02ik089e098 i140s 610f14ro028m 1213L1107u409xe0305mb11o034u08rg04.403
22:30:27 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +v Bike.
22:30:28 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:30:29 <Bike> is there a power operation in bash
22:30:45 <kmc> `run echo $((2**10))
22:30:54 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:30:55 <Bike> i mean composition power.
22:31:02 <oerjan> Bike: it won't get longer once it has filled up the line length (350 bytes) with color codes + original text
22:31:09 <shachaf> kmc: you can't go voicing people like that
22:31:22 <kmc> we have children here?!?!? fuck
22:31:39 <pikhq> Is elliott a children?
22:31:46 <kmc> not anymore, by law
22:31:57 <Bike> everybody flirt with elliott at once
22:32:21 <pikhq> elliott: Me love you long time.
22:32:29 <kmc> great flirting, 9.5 / 10
22:32:58 <kmc> (I may not be the best judge of such things)
22:33:11 <oerjan> Bike: i don't think so, it doesn't seem particularly useful
22:33:23 <kmc> PH: I think you're supposed to be more subtle than that
22:33:26 <Bike> oerjan: it's useful for rerererererainbowing!
22:33:45 <elliott> not sure PUAs understand the concept of "subtlety"
22:33:52 <elliott> or the concept of uh. anything
22:34:00 <Phantom_Hoover> like “Me, I like a girl with a couple extra pounds on her” ?
22:34:07 <kmc> nothing wrong with that PH
22:34:17 <kmc> let's not talk about PUA though
22:34:19 <kmc> that's just depressing
22:34:30 <Bike> with my voice, i make it law
22:34:30 <Fiora> I think I agree with kmc
22:34:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -v Bike.
22:34:40 <elliott> oerjan: Proto-Uto-Aztecan language
22:35:04 <pikhq> Well, I suppose if I'm going to flirt with elliott I should determine how androphilic he is.
22:35:17 <pikhq> elliott: On a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you like the cock?
22:35:37 <oerjan> i happen to know elliott likes coq
22:37:32 <oerjan> oh so that's what it means.
22:37:59 <Bike> yes. it means cock
22:39:28 <oerjan> also, i have a hunch elliott doesn't like this subject, so let's talk about prepromorphisms or something.
22:39:44 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: have you tried possing instead
22:39:48 * kmc makes a note to use the word "androphile" more often
22:40:27 <Phantom_Hoover> (the joke was that it was an excerpt from a lyttle lytton entry, hth)
22:40:50 * Bike stuffs Phantom_Hoover into a locker
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22:42:16 <kmc> my friend was trying to think of single straight guys he knows in New York but I think by "straight" he meant "interested in women" and by "single" he meant "available"
22:43:04 <pikhq> kmc: So, *not* excluding bi guys then.
22:45:10 <kmc> there's that tshirt "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"
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22:46:12 <Koen_> it's funny how five years ago I hadn't heard of any one being bi but today nearly a third of my friends say they are
22:46:34 <kmc> different friends or the same ones as five years ago?
22:46:44 <Bike> entranced by your organs no doubt
22:46:59 <pikhq> Bike: Oh baby, gimme some more of that liver.
22:47:13 <Koen_> are you suggesting I might have accessed a different social circle recently?
22:47:38 <Bike> pikhq: shower your lymph all over me
22:48:07 <kmc> Koen_: social circles do tend to shift over time, yeah
22:48:25 <kmc> I'm just wondering if the trend is people you already knew telling you they're bi, or you meeting new people, or both
22:48:43 <shachaf> are you truly the same person you were five years ago
22:48:47 <shachaf> imo that's the real question
22:49:10 <Koen_> kmc I think the trend is that more people are bi today than five years ago
22:49:31 <kmc> a lot of my friends have at least /some/ interest in both directions... whether or not to self-identify as bi based on that is pretty personal and arbitrary
22:49:40 <Koen_> also maybe my friends are (in average) older than my friends were (in average) five years ago, and thus have more sexual experience
22:49:45 <shachaf> imo self-identification considered harmful
22:50:10 <Koen_> well I had never thought that age might just be it
22:50:35 <Koen_> I had a feeling it was somewhat more fashionable to be bi today than it was before
22:50:48 <kmc> that's a loaded way to put it
22:50:59 <kmc> but maybe, yeah
22:51:17 <kmc> another way to put it would be that there's less pressure to hide it now
22:51:32 <Koen_> well that's not exactly saying the same thing
22:52:08 <Koen_> I once heard someone say that there was effectively less pressure, and that saying it had anything to do with being fashionable was highly homophobic
22:52:26 <Fiora> I don't know, I still get the feeling that there's just as much negativity as there used to be...
22:52:38 <kmc> it really depends on the context
22:52:41 <Koen_> but there's also more resistance Fiora
22:52:42 <kmc> who you interact with
22:52:54 <Fiora> bisexual people still "get all the fun", are "sex fiends", are "just trying to look good for the guys", or just plain don't exist
22:53:22 <Phantom_Hoover> <kmc> there's that tshirt "I'm not gay but my boyfriend is"
22:53:49 <pikhq> "Look good for the guys" ohhh my
22:53:54 <Koen_> when you say "just trying to look good for the guys" are you talking about bi people in general or about "lesbians pretending to be somewhat available to guys"?
22:53:55 <Phantom_Hoover> my first response to this was 'ah i get it, the wearer is female' then i realised why that was stuped
22:54:06 <kmc> Koen_: I'm not sure it's inherently homophobic to say there's an element of fashion to it, but as soon as you start telling people that their self-identification X is wrong and they're just doing it for reason Y, that's pretty dangerous ground
22:54:16 <Fiora> Koen_: the stereotype that bisexual women are actually straight girls trying to look "hot"
22:54:18 <Bike> Koen_: about bi women being described as being straight women pretending to be bi because men think it's hot
22:54:25 <pikhq> Koen_: Probably more hetero women pretending to be somewhat available to girls, because "lesbians are hawt"
22:54:38 <kmc> I mean, some of them are, though
22:54:43 <kmc> it's more about applying that stereotype to all bisexual people
22:54:54 <kmc> also, you don't have to be that sexually attracted to someone to have fun making out with them
22:54:55 <Fiora> it's still very common and generally results in bi women getting flak from both straight /and/ gay women
22:54:57 <Koen_> kmc: well I just observed that all girl friends I had who said they were bi happened to have a boyfriend
22:55:30 <Koen_> though I guess statistically for bi girls there are more boyfriends available than girlfriends
22:55:38 <kmc> it's not, like, fraudulant to make out with someone you don't want to fuck
22:55:53 <Bike> plz turn in makeout license
22:56:00 <pikhq> Yup, the dating pool for bi people is weighted as heck.
22:56:01 <kmc> Koen_: sexual interest is different from relationship interest, too
22:56:20 <Koen_> are you suggesting they might be cheating on their boyfriend?
22:56:21 <Fiora> Koen_: also, if they have a girlfriend but say they're bi, they will probably attract quite a bit more unwanted interest
22:56:50 <Fiora> because men take "I am bi and have a girlfriend" as code for "I want a man"
22:57:15 -!- ^v has joined.
22:57:17 <kmc> Koen_: it's not cheating if he's OK with it
22:57:35 <kmc> Koen_: but it's also fine to identify as sexually interested in women, without currently having your hand in someone's vagina
22:57:53 <Fiora> it's also okay to call yourself bisexual even if you've /never had sex/
22:57:55 <Koen_> pikhq: actually I have always wondered how it was possible that so many gay friends of mine had boyfriends - I mean my gay friend in couple / gay friend not in couple is higher than my straight male friend in couple / straight male friend ratio
22:58:13 <Koen_> though statistically it should be easier for a straight guy to find a girlfriend
22:59:05 <Koen_> kmc: I beg to differ, a lot of guys are not ok when they don't currently have their hand or other body part in someone's vagina
22:59:30 <pikhq> Maybe there's more to it than just dating pool size though.
23:01:19 <kmc> maybe your friends who are gay don't feel the need to advertise this fact to you unless they're dating a guy
23:01:41 <pikhq> "Have I mentioned I'm gay today?" :)
23:01:59 <Koen_> pikhq: yeah I felt very weird when I learned my cousin was gay
23:02:24 <shachaf> Fiora: imo what's with the "men do X" thing
23:02:52 <Koen_> pikhq: because I was so surprised not to know that already
23:04:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:05:37 <Koen_> kmc: I hadn't thought about that
23:07:06 <kmc> the use of the term "cheating" to describe any non-monogamous situation really pisses me off... cheating = lying, breaking rules, etc.
23:07:23 <kmc> if everyone involved is aware of what's happening and is okay with it, /that's not cheating/
23:07:27 <kmc> this happens more often than you might expect
23:07:39 <Koen_> Fiora: it's also okay to call yourself bisexual even if you've /never had sex/ <<< I realize I would never call myself anything anyway so that wouldn't apply
23:07:55 <kmc> of course as a society we make an exception for "single" men, who are allowed to sleep around as much as they want without it being "cheating"
23:08:02 <pikhq> There is a term for "uninterested in sex" FWIW. :P
23:08:21 <Koen_> kmc: as far as I know I have exactly one friend who's into that
23:08:43 <Koen_> (either that or other friends want to keep that a secret)
23:09:09 * pikhq is also some sort of non-monogamous...
23:09:32 <kmc> I have remarkably few personal secrets...
23:09:40 <kmc> keeping secrets is too much effort
23:09:44 <pikhq> I'm kinda bad at 'em.
23:09:47 <kmc> plus secretly (!) I like to brag
23:09:56 <Koen_> kmc: also note that "non-monogamous" implies one man and several women, not the other way around
23:10:08 <kmc> Koen_: no, it definitely does not
23:10:25 <kmc> that is a traditional meaning of the word "polygamy" yeah
23:10:29 <Koen_> did you just break what I knew about vocabulary? :(
23:10:29 <kmc> not the only meaning, either
23:10:33 <kmc> but I would avoid that word for that reason
23:10:36 <kmc> (and for others)
23:11:01 <pikhq> -gamy is the a suffix for "marriage"...
23:11:07 <Koen_> when I was in highschool we had a Nigerian teacher who came to talk about the differences between France and Niger
23:11:26 <Koen_> he began by introducing himself and ended by answering our questions
23:11:30 <pikhq> It just happens that people think multiple women when discussing non-monogamous things.
23:11:33 <kmc> (another reason to not keep secrets: I'm in a position due to various privileges and life circumstances to say "fuck 'em" to the people who would hate me for these things, rather than being afraid of them)
23:11:39 <Koen_> he's introduction included "I'm monogamous"
23:11:52 <Koen_> so one of the question was "is having several wives legal in Niger?"
23:12:00 <kmc> yes "polygyny" and "polyandry" are specific anthropological terms
23:12:16 <Koen_> to which the teacher answered by explaining why that was okay and why the student shouldn't be shocked
23:12:23 <kmc> "graph minor isomorphic to K_5" less used in the literature
23:12:29 <Koen_> then the student asked, "is it legal for a woman to have several husbands in Niger?"
23:12:36 <Koen_> the teacher was very shocked
23:12:45 <Koen_> "HOW WOULD THAT MAKE ANY SENSE"
23:13:01 <pikhq> Did somebody say "gangbang"?
23:13:07 <kmc> you, just now
23:13:28 <kmc> people have double standards about practically *everything* involving sex and relationships
23:13:32 <kmc> it's kind of remarkable
23:14:12 <kmc> sometimes the double standards are clearly in the interests of the patriarchy
23:14:15 <kmc> sometimes they are just baffling
23:16:06 <pikhq> Sex in general is best described as "complicated".
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23:16:59 <Fiora> I can never hope to understand it
23:18:08 <kmc> pikhq: yeah... but I would much rather have the complications that come from people actually feeling strongly about each other, over the complications that come from following arbitrary rules that never made any sense to me or the people i'm with
23:18:09 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: pikhq just has too short nick
23:18:20 <kmc> to me these are fairly different in kind
23:19:10 <kmc> I will probably not understand why monogamy is such a compelling default to most of the population... but the same goes for theism, and lots of other things
23:19:30 <kmc> of course people are plenty bad at actually following the rules of monogamy, or of your theistic religion of choice
23:21:23 <Bike> depends on "the population". historically (institutionalized) polygyny has been more common than monogamy
23:21:29 <kmc> that's true
23:21:32 <Bike> historically and worldwide. w/e.
23:21:50 <kmc> I mean among people I'm generally pretty close to culturally
23:23:09 <Bike> yeah i just felt like mentioning that.
23:23:21 <Bike> since it moves you to cultural norms rather than "human norms".
23:23:43 <Fiora> kmc: maybe at least to me the appeal comes from the idea of like, having a person you can cling to and rely on and know they'll be there, and you'll be there for them, and that you'll always be their priority?
23:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "i'll never understand theism" is a pretty internet atheisty statement to me tbh
23:25:31 <Fiora> it's a little easy to shrug off monogamy when you feel like you can get through all of life's challenges on your own, but not everyone feels that way...
23:25:34 <Koen_> I'll never understand why people have war over religions
23:25:43 <Bike> they don't, generally.
23:25:53 <Bike> any more than the pig war was about a pig.
23:26:49 <Bike> also holy christ circuit design programs are complicated, fucking hell
23:27:41 <Bike> this is the program that i had to download as a five GB tarball, have i mentioned that here
23:27:52 <Phantom_Hoover> verilog sounds really cool to me but i've never really gotten into it
23:29:11 <Bike> right now i'm doing the super cool circuit design of "connecting a switch to a light"
23:29:22 -!- CADD has joined.
23:30:01 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: I was Arc_Koen because there was that guy on freenode who owned the Koen nick
23:30:03 <Bike> "If using the DEPP interface uncomment lines 25-28" hoping this had to do with johnny
23:30:17 <Koen_> but I've recently decided I was the real Koen and didn't needed the Arc_
23:30:34 -!- Solain has joined.
23:30:51 <Bike> the zen thing, one assumes
23:31:13 <oerjan> what is the sound of one word cognating
23:32:12 <Bike> i should probably find an emacs mode and ditch this thing
23:34:03 <kmc> Fiora: yeah, good point... I don't feel like I can get through life's challenges alone, and I depend on a wonderful committed partner all the time
23:34:28 <kmc> but it would also be totally unfair of me to expect her and her alone to satisfy all of my physical and emotional needs
23:34:34 <kmc> (or vice versa)
23:34:39 <kmc> in fact I think the stress of doing so would destroy our relationship
23:35:08 <kmc> so I'm very glad that neither of us feels any pressure for that to be the case
23:35:11 <Fiora> I guess sex makes it compliated -_-
23:35:23 <kmc> I think it's complicated either way, but yeah
23:35:35 <Fiora> but that's the whole physical needs thing right
23:35:41 <kmc> sure but it's not only about that
23:35:42 <Bike> well he said "emotional needs"
23:36:06 <Solain> i feel as tht i shouldnt be seeing be in this irc in this time of the night
23:36:20 <Bike> you can deal w/it
23:36:21 <Phantom_Hoover> don't think monogamy entails exclusivity over 'emotional needs' really
23:36:40 <Fiora> yeah... I was thinking the same
23:36:41 <kmc> that depends on who you ask
23:36:47 <kmc> and what exactly you mean
23:36:48 <Fiora> but I guess ... yeah
23:36:56 <kmc> "emotional cheating" is definitely a thing people talk about
23:37:03 <kmc> facebook cyber-flirting
23:37:03 <Bike> «If using the DEPP interface uncomment lines 25-28» have so little idea of what i'm doing
23:37:07 <Bike> er wrong paste
23:37:10 <kmc> twitter ultra-sexing
23:37:15 <Fiora> that's... emotional cheating?
23:37:18 <Bike> well i don't understand that either, so assume i don't know anything about anything.
23:37:20 <kmc> Bike: you better uncomment it
23:38:05 <kmc> anyway most people would say that marriage is about more than sex, so I would assume they think monogamy is about more than sexual exclusivity too?
23:38:18 <kmc> but the whole thing makes me go a bit :psyduck:
23:38:47 <Fiora> I guess it's about guaranteeing that both people will always view the other as their primary care and responsibility, emotionally and otherwise...?
23:39:01 <Fiora> I don't know, socially-defined constructs like that based around sex confuse me
23:41:04 <Bike> start with two files. build. end with forty files and six subdirectories.
23:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, i think they probably mean you're meant to be emotionally invested in your partner, not rely on them exclusively
23:41:38 <kmc> by the way I don't mean to imply that arrangements with only two people are bad or wrong (for anyone, or for myself)
23:41:51 <Bike> i don't know what most of them are, in fact.
23:42:11 <Bike> for example, a .xrpt.
23:42:13 <kmc> you can have such arrangements without having a rigid external rule that this is the only acceptable way to do anything ever
23:42:33 <Bike> oh, it's "Xml RePorT"
23:42:34 <Solain> excuse me for interupting your conversetion, but i found the medical expretise which consults bones and muscles, its called "orthopedics" in english. you can find more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopedic_surgery; we have a more accurate name in hebrew though
23:42:49 <kmc> CASH FOR BONES
23:42:55 <kmc> MUSCLES FOR BONES
23:43:37 <Bike> wow this is the pinout as csv
23:43:54 <kmc> Solain: why are you telling us this
23:43:59 <Bike> "T8,sw,IOB,IO_L31N_GCLK30_D15_2,INPUT,LVCMOS25*,2,,,,NONE,,UNLOCATED,NO,NONE,"
23:46:10 <Roujo> Huh, Solain is back
23:46:31 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:46:36 <Roujo> <kmc> [19:37:10] twitter ultra-sexing
23:46:40 -!- Bike has joined.
23:46:48 <kmc> Roujo: totally not a thing I just made up
23:47:19 <Roujo> I mean, if we're talking about cheating, I'm pretty sure twitter ultra-sexing applies
23:47:27 <Bike> "$2.77 × 10^15 + $3.99 shipping" yay amazon
23:47:34 <Roujo> Like, basic cheating. Not emotional cheating.
23:47:37 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
23:47:43 <Bike> relationship advice: does following voidsexts constitute cheating
23:47:59 <kmc> what if you pixelate out your junk before you twitpic it to a congressman
23:48:13 <Roujo> public void sex(Relationship *arg)
23:48:14 <kmc> #esoteric should totally write a relationship advice column
23:48:35 <Bike> Roujo: https://twitter.com/voidsexts
23:48:39 <kmc> what language uses 'public' that way and also has *-pointers? checkmate
23:48:48 <Roujo> Bike: Failing advice, I gave you some pointers...
23:49:26 <Roujo> Bike: Huh. I don't think it counts, no
23:50:40 <Roujo> [19:45:19] <kmc> [19:34:28] but it would also be totally unfair of me to expect her and her alone to satisfy all of my physical and emotional needs
23:50:40 <Roujo> [19:45:19] <kmc> [19:34:33] (or vice versa)
23:50:40 <Roujo> [19:45:19] <kmc> [19:34:39] in fact I think the stress of doing so would destroy our relationship
23:51:05 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:51:06 <Solain> those insta messeges scared me
23:51:12 <Bike> i don't think you need to paste three lines just to "++" in the future
23:51:22 <Roujo> Here's a cautionary tail, though
23:51:30 <Roujo> (Bike: There's more coming up)
23:51:36 <Roujo> I have to provide context and all
23:51:44 <Roujo> But yeah. Cautionary tail of sorts
23:51:56 <Roujo> That's the kind of relationship I build with my SO
23:52:40 <Roujo> "Your SO doesn't have to fill every emotional need you have"
23:52:44 <Roujo> It worked, to a point
23:53:02 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:53:10 <Roujo> It worked well, no pressure and all, until we got to the last few months
23:53:30 <Roujo> When I realized that since I wasn't expecting her to fill any particular need, I found ways to fill them elsewhere
23:53:38 <Roujo> Which put her in a weird position in my mind
23:54:01 <Koen_> SO stands for significant other right?
23:54:21 <Koen_> I first thought of "soulmate" but that acronym is already taken I reckon
23:54:36 <oerjan> it's SO weird to see that term which i remember from old usenet
23:55:06 <Roujo> It seems that by trying not to put pressure on my SO to fill my needs, I just bypassed her for most of them
23:55:31 <Roujo> So I ended up in a situation where she wasn't my go-to person for any non-physical need
23:56:03 <Roujo> Which lead to a not-so-nice situation where I was wondering what was special between us two
23:56:08 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/quotes
23:56:19 <Roujo> Since most of what I needed, I could find elsewhere - and did
23:56:36 <Bike> your SO(2) group
23:56:41 <Koen_> Roujo: It worked well, no pressure and all, until we got to the last few months <<< I read that as "we had a countdown-to-separation already in place and we reacting badly to it going under a few months
23:56:46 <Roujo> So yeah. The realization was recent (weeks, really), so I'm still recovering
23:57:54 <Koen_> oh so that's actually a countdown-to-marriage!
23:58:08 <Roujo> Well, vaguely, yeah
23:58:13 <Bike> t minus one million seconds
23:58:14 <Roujo> But there's no date yet, so not really
23:58:34 <Bike> oh, that's eleven days
23:58:36 <Roujo> Anyway. We're still recovering and trying to get back close to one another
23:58:40 <Bike> congrats on being married in eleven days