00:12:48 -!- audioPhil has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
00:13:24 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: there's no \omicron
00:13:33 <ais523> and just typing an o would seem wrong
00:13:50 <ais523> perhaps I could try to find one in Unicode, although LaTeX+Unicode is its own brand of "fun"
00:14:32 <kmc> isn't the latex way that you just type an o
00:15:01 <ais523> yeah but that's a different letter
00:15:48 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: and omicron is greek for 'small o'
00:16:01 <kmc> mind = blown
00:16:02 <elliott> how did I never notice this before now
00:16:08 <ais523> admittedly, an omicron looks enough like an o that if someone slipped one into the conversation, I wouldn't notice
00:17:01 <ais523> one of these is an omicron: ooο
00:17:09 <Phantom__Hoover> alsο that sοunds like a great way of pοintlessly cοmplicating text
00:17:58 <ais523> I guess I have enough of a programming mind to assume that an o and an ο can always be distinguished given enough effort
00:17:59 <Koen_> I'm pretty sure they used that kind of tricks to prevent students from copying lines from the subject into our programs
00:18:17 <ais523> no visible difference in this font
00:18:26 <Phantom__Hoover> for a second there i thought ais was just really interested by something
00:18:29 <ais523> Koen_: why would thy want to prevent you doing that?
00:18:37 <mnoqy> in my font the difference is a 1px offset
00:18:42 <Koen_> they give you the prototype of a function with an extremely long name and a quintillion arguments, but no, you have to type it all by yourself because some of the letters aren't the letters you think and won't compile
00:18:51 <Koen_> ais523: how do I know
00:19:13 <ais523> Koen_: do you get the exercise as PDFs? it could just be an encoding issue in LaTeX
00:19:24 <ais523> that happened all the time with the exercises my predecessors gave the students
00:19:34 <Koen_> I need to learn latex :(
00:19:34 <ais523> actually it inserting spaces into identifiers was even more of a problem
00:20:13 <ais523> at least in LyX, it seems to be fixable via a) telling it to turn off fontenc, and b) repeatedly setting the language to "reset" even though you never changed it
00:22:15 <Phantom__Hoover> apropopos of nothing, i saw this story on /r/math about a guy who was trying to remove all the formatting stuff from a latex document
00:22:40 <Phantom__Hoover> and the best part was, the results were what he was looking for
00:22:59 <Koen_> are you just tricking us into googling it
00:23:03 <ais523> might have had safesearch on?
00:23:09 <ais523> or have been very strongly bubbled
00:23:18 <ais523> also only one result would need to be correct for it to be useful
00:24:21 <Phantom__Hoover> the first two results are about... stripping latex paint from wood
00:24:50 <Bike> @@google latex stripper
00:24:53 <Bike> @google latex stripper
00:24:55 <lambdabot> http://toolmonger.com/2009/09/25/reader-question-stripping-latex-paint/
00:24:55 <lambdabot> Title: Reader Question: Stripping Latex Paint | Toolmonger
00:25:14 <ais523> I'm not sure what I'd expect
00:25:17 <ais523> especially given the context
00:26:33 <Koen_> I'd probably expect feminine people
00:26:37 <ais523> I guess that was a strong possibility
00:27:15 <mnoqy> how about people stripping from wearing latex??????how about it
00:28:33 <ais523> anyway, this sort of thing is why Ubuntu use adjective animals for their version name
00:28:40 <ais523> so that there's at least a chance of being able to websearch them
00:30:18 <Koen_> os x does that as well
00:30:53 <Koen_> should we be afraid of finding articles about houses with eight windows?
00:32:30 <ais523> well those are probably more worksafe than latex strippers
00:33:28 <Koen_> latew strippers make up a good story
00:33:55 <Koen_> also a good cover story if you get caught looking for porn
00:45:53 <Bike> seriously considered writing verilog macrology to turn truth tables into PoS for me. apparently verilog macros suck
00:46:14 <ais523> what does PoS stand for there?
00:46:17 <Bike> product of sums
00:46:18 <ais523> also, I recommend a code generator
00:46:22 <Bike> yeah i wrote one
00:46:25 <Bike> still annoying
00:46:34 <ais523> also, why that way round? sum of products is more common
00:46:40 <Bike> because it's homework.
00:46:43 <ais523> (that's where the upsilon came from, actually)
00:46:51 <Koen_> can't you turn truth tables into PoS using any other programming language than verilog macros?
00:46:56 <Bike> yes. that is what i did.
00:47:15 <ais523> I guess you could use a K-map
00:47:21 <Bike> anyway, semirelated, why do ctrl-c/v and ctrl/shift-insert use different clipboards, and how do i not... how do i fix this
00:47:23 <ais523> it's what they were invented for
00:47:30 <Bike> ais523: literally have to write out a pos expression.
00:47:41 <Bike> "piece of shit" is running through my mind, i assure you.
00:48:19 <ais523> try to find some way to interpret it as "point of sale"
00:48:21 <Bike> i suppose in x they're probably called "buffers" or "rings" or something else weird
00:48:41 <Koen_> well a truth table is trivially converted into a sum of products, and then you just have to factor that product
00:48:42 <Bike> maybe it's just urxvt. anyway, ugh
00:48:53 <Bike> koen i know how to do this. i'm just complaining because it's really dull
00:49:19 <ais523> Bike: X actually has like 10 clipboards
00:49:20 <Koen_> (is that always possible?)
00:49:28 <ais523> but two of them are the most commonly used
00:49:39 <Koen_> Bike: is that for some kind of "logic class"?
00:49:42 <ais523> the one that copy-paste is meant to use (PRIMARY), and a temporary one that exists whenever you select anything
00:49:45 <Bike> i just want to be able to paste from emacs to xilinx.
00:50:03 <Bike> Koen_: circuit design. i already took intro logic and got pissed off at truth tables there
00:50:13 <ais523> Bike: if it's an old or misconfigured Emacs, you'll have to choose copy from the menus
00:50:21 <ais523> rather than using any of Emacs' copy-like keyboard inputs
00:50:35 <Bike> ais523: i think it's urxvt, i'm using ctrl-insert for copy and it works between terms but not into something modern
00:50:35 <ais523> if it's very old, the only way I found to do it involved some custom elisp
00:50:42 <ais523> and then I only got it working like 50% of the time
00:50:52 <Bike> i hate computers.
00:51:07 <Bike> i think i'll just write it all into a file because you know what? fuck. fuck
00:51:59 <Koen_> Bike: I took intro logic and got into an argument with the teacher because in my opinion she was trying to teach the students that the most obvious, basic common sense was not at all obvious but rather some kind of dull boolean arithmetic with complicated laws
00:52:10 <ais523> here we go, possibly the first elisp I ever wrote: http://sprunge.us/ebPQ
00:52:25 <ais523> where my first esolanging also took place
00:52:25 <Bike> Koen_: my professor got fired.
00:52:56 <Bike> Are you talking about the Aristotle/Boole thing?
00:53:01 <Bike> That annoyed some of my CSy friends.
00:54:02 <Bike> and uh there kind of are complicated laws? Like, de morgan's is pretty easy but i wouldn't call it "common sense" exactly
00:54:12 <Bike> de morgan's are*, whatever
00:54:26 <ais523> Bike: well I was struggling with this literally last night
00:54:32 <ais523> suppose you have a boolean expression
00:54:43 <ais523> and you want to determine if it's a contradiction or not entirely using rewrite rules
00:54:47 <ais523> also they can only apply at the top level
00:55:08 <ais523> and you want to keep the set reasonably small (not necessarily golfed, but not with very large or unreadable rules)
00:55:16 <Bike> mm that does sound annoying
00:55:21 <ais523> oh and this is a proper parse tree with binary and and or
00:55:39 <ais523> in the end, I found a way to avoid having to solve the problem
00:55:49 <Bike> that's the spirit!
00:56:00 <ais523> partly because it felt a lot like esolang design, and it was an inappropriate venue for that
00:56:16 <ais523> partly because I'm almost convinced that the simplest solution is unexpectedly complex
00:57:02 <ais523> it reminds me of when Snowflake had two stack manip instructions: one which rotated or unrotated the top three elements
00:57:09 <ais523> and one which moved the top stack element to the bottom, or vice versa
00:57:18 <ais523> this turns out to not be enough to implement swap
00:57:36 <Bike> kind of wish that i could turn in my generator with the assignment, oh well.
00:57:39 <ais523> (I later removed the second of those instructions to make programming in it more interesting, because it turned out not to be needed for anything I wanted to do)
01:07:20 <Bike> well i generated some pices of shot. good enough for me
01:09:29 <Koen_> Bike: is de morgan's the thing with not(a and b) = (not a) or (not b)?
01:09:50 <Koen_> that's just common sense, yes
01:10:25 <Koen_> "and" and "or" make sense not just as truth tables but because they actually mean something
01:11:33 <Bike> it's not common sense in that you don't generally have to teach it.
01:12:20 <Koen_> well I don't believe you should have to teach that as some theorem
01:12:33 <Bike> It should be taught as axiomatic?
01:12:56 <Koen_> as "think about it, that's logic and it makes sense and you can figure it out yourself"
01:13:14 <elliott> you realise humans are kind of awful at thinking logically?
01:13:24 <elliott> that's why we invent formal systems, with rules, that you can teach people, and prove things with.
01:13:42 <Koen_> that's scary and sad
01:13:55 <elliott> so we don't have to appeal to some common sense that isn't really all that common -- for instance, in natural language "or" often means something closer to "xor"
01:14:19 <elliott> and logical implication and "if ..., then ..." have a very tricky and unclear relationship, lots of arguments about the best way to model it
01:14:29 <Bike> It's only scary if you expected people to think like this logical system you dreamed up.
01:14:48 <Koen_> I think "a or b" always means "a or b", but sometimes the context has an implicit "if you pick a you won't get a chance to pick b"
01:14:58 <elliott> I don't really think it's scary, I just think you're being a bit arrogant about the material :P even if it's intuitively obvious when stated as an English sentence, that doesn't mean it's not important to teach in a formal context
01:15:01 <Bike> so, it doesn't always mean "a or b".
01:15:04 <Bike> is what you just said.
01:15:19 <Koen_> elliott: I'm not saying formal is useless, far from it
01:15:52 <Koen_> Bike: what I just said is that the only difference between formal and everyday is that everyday has implicit stuff
01:16:10 <Bike> That's kind of a huge difference?
01:16:29 <ais523> elliott: writing mathematical papers in English is a pain
01:16:34 <Koen_> not so big; you could formalize everyday by explicitating the implicit thing
01:16:34 <ais523> because I have to spell out which is meant every time I use "or"
01:16:43 <ais523> and my supervisor apparently doesn't understand "and/or"
01:17:02 <Bike> In which case you show that spoken "a or b" means formal "a xor b", apparently?
01:17:22 <Koen_> Bike: spoken "a or b" doesn't necessarily means formal "a xor b" Bike
01:17:33 <ais523> sometimes it does, but not always
01:17:38 <Bike> almost like there's no simple mapping to formal concepts
01:17:57 * Bike slightly bitter about this general idea for other reasons. i apologize.
01:17:57 <Koen_> yes there is you just need to figure out what was implicitly assumed
01:18:05 <Bike> that isn't simple.
01:18:16 <Koen_> well you've managed to survive life for so long
01:18:23 <Koen_> so apparently it's not so difficult
01:18:37 <Bike> Life doesn't have these formal concepts in it, usually.
01:18:55 <Koen_> but everyday life has everyday concepts surely
01:18:56 <elliott> I think you're a bit confused as to what the point of formal logic is :/
01:19:12 <Bike> Yes, it has everyday concepts.
01:19:22 <elliott> the teacher isn't really telling you about de Morgan's laws so you can use them in everyday reasoning where you wouldn't be able to before.
01:19:24 <Bike> I deal with everyday concepts without thinking of formal xor at all, generally.
01:19:28 <Koen_> elliott: well I'm not denying formal logic may have a point but formal logic as it is taught at our university surely fails to make its point
01:19:32 <Bike> like, it's never come up.
01:19:44 <ais523> elliott: there was a shop (sadly, now closed) on the way to the University which advertised with contrapositives
01:19:54 <ais523> If you can't buy a bed today, you are not in Beds Directs!
01:20:07 <ais523> I'm not sure how effective it was
01:20:23 <Phantom__Hoover> who would win in a fight, a pistol shrimp or a mantis shrimp
01:20:27 <Bike> according to elliott, and elliott is basically god, so yes
01:21:11 <Bike> well, i don't know most of their behavior off the top of my head, but pistol shrimp usually deal with shelled prey, don't they? maybe they wouldn't work so well on something soft
01:22:21 <Bike> bite me motherfucker
01:22:44 <elliott> are you two about to make out
01:22:58 <Bike> we're about to penis fence, as is traditional for biologists
01:23:07 <Bike> anyway i can't optimize this expression well ugh i'm incompetent
01:23:24 <Bike> waaaah you're mean
01:23:34 <elliott> come on, there's chemistry here!
01:23:39 <ais523> does shipping work on real-life people?
01:23:40 <elliott> on top of the biology and programming
01:23:49 <Bike> (~(C+D)(A^B))|(~(CD)(A^B))
01:23:54 <Bike> there's something obvious but i can't think of it.
01:24:06 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, yes, they made quite a business of it back in the 18th century
01:24:15 <Fiora> what's the difference between C+D and CD?
01:24:18 <ais523> Bike: factor out the A xor Bs
01:24:25 <Bike> C|D and C*D if you want
01:24:33 <ais523> wait, are | and + both or?
01:24:35 <Bike> wow factoring yes
01:24:38 <ais523> no wonder people are confused
01:24:42 <Bike> ais523: cf incompetence :(
01:24:54 <Bike> no, that's + with a circle
01:24:57 <Bike> ^ is xor you know what never mind
01:25:02 <elliott> maybe ABCD aren't booleans and it's bitwise or vs. addition!
01:25:11 <elliott> Bike just said "expression".
01:25:16 <ais523> well in that case I insist on interpreting it as OIL
01:25:18 <elliott> you're the ones making assumptions here!
01:25:20 <Bike> maybe i meant lie groups
01:25:28 <Bike> for my circuit design class.
01:25:28 <ais523> in which case, err, it's pretty much what elliott suggested, just with more syntax errors
01:25:50 <ais523> Bike: fix your operand names
01:25:51 <elliott> there's something beautiful about using concatenation for multiplication at the same time as bitwise operators.
01:26:03 <Fiora> is (~(C+D))|(~(C|D)) just ~(C+D)?
01:26:23 <ais523> I'm too jaded to work out which, because I was doing that all night
01:26:27 <ais523> except with \oplus and \odot
01:26:40 <Fiora> I meant like isn't it the same unless I'm just reading it wrong or something
01:26:49 <Bike> i wrote it wrong
01:27:10 <ais523> Fiora: I tried to parse your line as a haiku, because of the spaces
01:27:33 <Bike> laughed irl at that
01:28:00 <ais523> well when you see three shortish phrases
01:28:02 <mnoqy> it does make a good poem
01:28:29 <ais523> also to be a proper haiku, as well as being 5/7/5, it'd also need to mention a season somewhere
01:28:50 <HackEgo> 433) <monqy> beautiful summer / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck / fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck \ 1038) <elliott> beautiful summer / massacres in qusayr / sent from my iphone
01:29:06 <elliott> ...I completely forget the context to 1038.
01:29:08 <mnoqy> `quote snowman without snow
01:29:18 <Bike> `quote SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:29:21 <ais523> also, I like the last line of that second haiku
01:29:26 <ais523> I like the first one too, but I've seen it before
01:29:42 <ais523> `pastlog snowman without snow
01:30:00 <Bike> update: i think i got it down to (A^B)CD. now going to check the truth table because god i'm a failure
01:30:08 <Bike> wait, that won't work.
01:30:11 <Bike> see, there we go
01:30:11 <HackEgo> 2011-01-30.txt:16:20:30: <fizzie> And the nicely zen U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW.
01:30:27 <Bike> hm maybe it's or
01:30:30 <Fiora> I thought it was ~(C+D) | (A^B) or is that the same thing
01:30:39 <Bike> nah it's different
01:30:40 <ais523> OK, esolangs.org game: keep clicking random, count how many BF derivatives you find before you reach a language you created
01:30:49 <ais523> if you're depressed by the result, create a language to improve your chances
01:31:09 <elliott> I think that only works even vaguely well if you've created a billion languages
01:31:12 <Bike> I think I probably should have just used a kmap.
01:31:21 <mnoqy> what if one of your languages IS a bf derivative....
01:31:28 <Koen_> ais523: what if you find a BF derivatives *you created*
01:31:37 <Koen_> and what if mnoqy just said that
01:31:54 <ais523> well, if I find reversible BF or The Language That Cannot BE Spelled, I'll let you know
01:32:00 <ais523> or dofuck, but I'm not sure if that's on the wiki yet
01:32:14 <ais523> huh, I just hit () twice in a row
01:32:14 <elliott> if you hit your own BF derivative you finish your drink
01:32:23 <Koen_> ais523: the thing is, i'm afraid playing your game will only result in more bf derivatives being created
01:32:38 <ais523> huh, I just hit zzo38's BF derivative
01:32:49 <ais523> Koen_: OK, if you hit your own BF derivative, you have to keep going
01:32:57 <ais523> thus making it impossible to create BF derivatives to escape the cycle
01:33:14 <Koen_> so i'm pretty sure creating a a language diminishes your chances
01:33:16 <Bike> what if i haven't made any languages... do i just keep going forever
01:33:30 <Bike> am i going to die. tell it to me straight doc
01:33:31 <ais523> Bike: you make one, it's the only way to escape
01:33:35 <ais523> Koen_: well low scores are good
01:33:48 <Koen_> now hum I meant the score will get higher
01:33:53 <ais523> ooh, StateFlip; that's /based/ on one of mine
01:34:24 <Koen_> is that a 2-dimensional brainfuck derivative with booleans instead of chars?
01:34:27 <ais523> bleh, 5 now, and that's the same as last time
01:34:37 <ais523> Koen_: no, it's a BackFlip derivative, and has nothing to do with BF
01:34:53 <mnoqy> what if i make brainfuck derivatives to worsen everyone else's scores
01:34:54 <Koen_> ***B***ack***F***lip
01:34:56 <ais523> do we count Schrodilang? It /might/ be a BF derivative
01:35:01 <ais523> mnoqy: you'll worsen your own more
01:35:09 <ais523> unless you have more languages than, say, me or cpressey
01:35:09 <Bike> jesus i started with the wrong sum of products
01:35:19 <Bike> pretty soon i'm going to find that i accidentally proved zfc consistent.
01:35:22 <Koen_> so I tried playing
01:35:39 <Koen_> and I just realize it's possible you find a page that's neither a bf derivative nor a language you created
01:35:52 <ais523> OK, BF derivative derivative derivative
01:35:58 <ais523> does this count or not?
01:36:07 <ais523> I guess I have to go to 7, even if it /is/ by cpressey
01:36:25 <ais523> actually most of them aren't BF derivatives
01:36:31 <Koen_> also i just went through like 5 pages without hitting a bf derivative, I think that's a record?
01:36:47 <ais523> nah, I often manage more than that
01:37:19 <ais523> 9, and a particularly bad example
01:37:44 <ais523> wait, I just realised I have 3 BF derivatives
01:37:54 <ais523> because one of them was linked from the page I was just on (which isn't a language, so it didn't increase my score)
01:38:24 <ais523> hmm, now I'm not sure whether x-D counts
01:38:47 <ais523> it doesn't claim to be a BF derivative, nor does it particularly look like a BF deriv page
01:39:25 <ais523> just it looks like it embeds BF's commands, that's all
01:39:30 <Koen_> so i'm already at 10 bf derivatives, and in case of doubt I didn't count the languages as bf derivatives
01:39:38 <mnoqy> does it need to have a tape to be a bf deriv
01:39:38 <Koen_> and haven't found a language of mine yet
01:39:59 <ais523> mnoqy: it has to have some strong similarity
01:40:10 <ais523> if it doesn't have a tape, it's not a BF deriv unless its instructions are clearly based on BF's
01:40:24 <ais523> OK, oklopol brings me to 11
01:40:30 <ais523> it's depressing how many of these are by channel regulars
01:41:00 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
01:41:16 <ais523> this is a page about two of my languages, neither of which are BF derivs
01:41:20 <ais523> but it's not a language page itself
01:41:24 <ais523> so it doesn't count :(
01:42:24 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:42:28 <Koen_> so I just hit 20 bf derivatives and still no sign of myself
01:42:36 <Koen_> though I did hit some pages four times
01:43:57 <Koen_> I'm depressed by the result but I'm gonna go to bed rather than create a language
01:45:25 <ais523> MediaWiki's Special:Random is a little weirdly distributed
01:45:29 <ais523> it prefers some pages to others
01:47:00 <Koen_> I didn't hit () at all
01:47:02 <ais523> OK, after 24, I hit C-INTERCAL
01:47:13 <ais523> and I'm tempted to count that, given the circumstances
01:47:16 <ais523> meh, I'll keep going anyway
01:47:33 <Koen_> I hit C-Intercal but I think countint it would be more than bending the rules
01:47:53 <ais523> Koen_: well you haven't invented many of the commands and maintained the interp
01:48:00 <ais523> so yeah, it clearly doesn't count for /you/ :)
01:48:05 <Koen_> since I have never written a single line of program in intercal and don't even know what that would look like
01:48:28 <ais523> yay, I get to not count 2D BF because it's a page talking about BF derivs
01:48:32 <ais523> rather than a BF deriv in its own right
01:48:56 <Koen_> I was tempted not to count it but I had lost count anyway
01:49:16 <ais523> and now Backtracking INTERCAL, which I wrote the first impl of
01:49:44 <ais523> anyone know what's up with http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%E2%99%A6 ?
01:50:32 <ais523> I seriously thought it'd be much lower than that
01:50:39 <ais523> I guess there are a /lot/ of BF derivs out there
01:50:57 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
01:51:11 -!- Bike has joined.
01:51:52 <elliott> ais523: see the talk page, if you want to be even more confused
01:52:02 <ais523> actually it cleared things up for me
01:52:08 * Bike realizes irritatedly that xnor(a,b,c) != xnor(xnor(a,b),c)
01:52:52 <Bike> is that associativity? i'm too hungry to think about it
01:53:33 <ais523> Bike: yeah, not associative
01:54:11 <Bike> is there any good way to write xnor(a,b,c) with binary operator
01:54:14 <Koen_> Bike: is there a standard definition for n-ary nxor?
01:54:29 <Bike> "they're all the same" is what i'm using
01:55:03 <Bike> (¬a&¬b&¬c)|(a&b&c) if you like, i guess
01:55:07 <Bike> guess i'll write that. sux
01:55:09 <Koen_> yeah == cannot be chained in C
01:55:51 <ais523> OK, can I please count Radixal!!!!?
01:56:02 <ais523> in that case I score 45
01:56:03 <Bike> http://www.project-veripage.com/pmd.php oh god
01:56:21 <Bike> "My simulator does not support Parameterized Macro Definition." why is this a property of the simulator
01:56:24 <Bike> agh fuck it i'm getting food
01:58:49 <ais523> I only scored 9 that time
01:59:14 <ais523> again, I hit a language which I worked out the details and wrote the spec for, but wasn't simply mine
01:59:39 <Koen_> such a language could be a bf derivative
02:01:12 <Koen_> Bike: I can't think of simpler than (¬a&¬b&¬c)|(a&b&c) right now
02:01:18 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
02:02:12 <ais523> hmm, I was just at 1 before I hit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Index.php
02:03:10 -!- Koen_ has joined.
02:06:08 <Koen_> also I realized someone highlighted me just before I quit
02:06:24 <Koen_> but I'm gonna quit again soon I promise
02:06:52 <ais523> OK, conclusions: if you want to do well at this, be either zzo38 or cpressey
02:07:43 <ais523> although I'd do better even if I were whatever ihope127's current nick is
02:08:52 <ais523> even Ngved would be beating me on these pages :(
02:09:23 -!- copumpkin has joined.
02:10:10 <Koen_> I think David/werecatt would do ok
02:11:01 <Koen_> okay quitting again
02:11:07 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
02:11:07 <ais523> yeah, he's doing well on the Special:Random favoured pages
02:11:13 <ais523> elliott: can you go reroll Special:Random? thx
02:13:33 <Bike> i ate but thingis are still terrible
02:14:39 <ais523> also, more than half of these miscapitalize brainfuck
02:15:21 <ais523> which I like and am disappointed that it didn't get more attention
02:15:38 <ais523> anyway, there are a /lot/ of BF derivs out there
02:15:50 <ais523> I didn't understand just how bad the problem was :(
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04:13:07 <Sgeo> Some of my MIDIs have metadata such that Foobar2000 was actually able to give it a name
04:13:12 <Sgeo> Well, one of my MIDIs
04:18:11 <Sgeo> I have a 47 minute long MIDI file
04:22:58 <Sgeo> Gregor: is there any reason to dislike BASSMIDI?
04:23:34 <Sgeo> Erm, wait, I thought BASSMIDI was a thing that can be used to use soundfonts
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04:36:09 <Bike> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/390156_187967128007447_1121325559_n.png i love hackers
05:28:13 <fizzie> (That is a very impressive logo.)
05:28:28 <Bike> syrianandproudtobe. weloveourleader. security. lions.
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06:11:03 <kmc> today at work we ate an unusual cake https://twitter.com/LostOracle/status/377879038498324480/photo/1
06:11:19 <Bike> more congratulations!!
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06:12:50 <oerjan> the acid is what makes you see that background pattern, right?
06:14:24 <oerjan> little Servo is growing up so fast
06:16:34 <kmc> i didn't even make any #drugzjokes!
06:17:12 <oerjan> next you'll tell me there were none in the cake either
06:20:56 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> so, from mathematics "S" is evil, but from programming it's just plain old print. <-- nah S is simple to handle mathematically, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Rewriting_semantics
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06:26:36 <fizzie> There's an incredibly nonsensical computer-security news item from the local public broadcasting company, but it's unfortunately in Finnish, so you perhaps can't quite appreciate it.
06:26:40 <fizzie> Paraphrasing, it says (among other things): "Normally, data is stored securely by collecting so much superfluous material around it that the actual information is obscured by the unnecessary information. This is called a firewall. By reducing the mass of information a small part at a time, a hacker can access the secured information no matter how good the firewall is, as long as he has sufficient resources."
06:27:08 <Bike> the local breakdancing company
06:27:54 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/D2VT26 -- it really doesn't make any more sense before the translation either.
06:28:43 <fizzie> (Okay, the "new system" description manages to be perhaps one additional step of incoherent after Google Translate has had its fun.)
06:36:16 <oerjan> oh the /// page already had the proper CSS
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06:40:55 <ais523> oerjan: S is easy, it's just annoying to deal with
06:41:30 <oerjan> @ask elliott Does removing white-space: pre-wrap from the /// quine make it look worse to others?
06:52:40 <ion> kmc: Fixed that for you http://heh.fi/tmp/cake.jpeg
06:53:51 <oerjan> ais523: did you handle S purely in the original implementation?
06:56:42 <ais523> the original impl was rewriting
06:56:49 <ais523> so it handled everything impurely ;)
06:57:14 <ais523> most more advanced impls I've been involved with used a sidechannel for S data
07:16:58 <ais523> oerjan: seriously, though, I have no idea what you mean by the question
07:17:36 <oerjan> well i consider rewriting to be pure
07:18:00 <oerjan> lambda calculus is a rewriting language, after all
07:19:09 <oerjan> so i guess i'm asking if your implementation calculated an equivalent form of the program that still included the output
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07:53:30 <ais523> well you have to be careful of programs like (x)S(:^):^
07:53:42 <ais523> which should produce output before the infinite loop happens
07:55:09 <oerjan> this is similar to weak head normal in lc and haskell
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07:59:11 <olsner> fizzie: how does that new system work?
07:59:32 <olsner> "In the size of the terminal from which the information is to fade from view by hackers. Security is cancellable only within the same system, and the non-protected data appears to be a wonder-ful As a paste."
08:04:46 <fizzie> olsner: I have absolutely no idea how it works, about all I can do is to provide an arguably more accurate translation.
08:04:50 <fizzie> olsner: "The new Unisys system works using an entirely different principle. In it, the entire device storing the information is hidden from the view of hackers. The protection can only be decrypted from within the same system, and for outside observers the information will appear as a nonsensical mess. This is possible because the information is encrypted in an earlier stage, before the IP address has been formed."
08:06:39 <olsner> hmm, so the translation wasn't that bad after all
08:07:05 <olsner> wonderful as a paste = nonsensical mess
08:08:51 <fizzie> That's the word "ihmeellinen" -- it has senses "wonderful, extraordinary" and "strange, weird, odd, curious".
08:09:01 <fizzie> The use is more of the latter, but the translation has picked the former.
08:09:49 <ais523> those were often historically conflated in English too
08:10:27 <ais523> and you can still get something of the duality in words like "astonishing"
08:11:59 <fizzie> The actual press release related to the article is pretty much equally content-free, but doesn't have the utterly nonsensical bits about firewalls.
08:12:02 <fizzie> The bit about "encrypted in an earlier stage, before the IP address has been formed" seems to mean that it works on OSI layer 2, and the bit about "hiding the device" and being accessible only "within the same system" seems to say the data is stored on something that's not as easily connectable from the public interwebs.
09:01:50 <oerjan> dammit the hello word quiz gave me BEGIN { print "Hello, world!" }
09:01:59 <oerjan> and a choice between awk and perl...
09:02:14 <ais523> yeah lots of people have complained about that one
09:02:17 <oerjan> then claims it's awk, but it _works_ in perl.
09:02:26 <ais523> although, it's correct in both, but hardly idiomatic in Perl
09:02:47 <oerjan> true but i don't think all the others are idiomatic either...
09:02:56 <ais523> that said, the BEGIN seems useful for distinguishing Perl from other languages…
09:03:18 <oerjan> i _knew_ both awk and perl had it, of course.
09:03:33 <oerjan> but i was not sure if awk had straight up print.
09:04:15 <oerjan> although i shouldn't complain too much, this quiz has gone surprisingly well. although a lot of elimination rather than actually knowing the answer.
09:05:38 <oerjan> heh poiuy_qwert has a program. where is he these days...
09:07:06 <oerjan> oh there was also the ?- write('Hello world!'), nl.
09:07:41 <oerjan> which a choice between prolog and something else. now i'm getting it _again_, but without what was the right answer the last time D:
09:08:04 <oerjan> and now it accepted prolog.
09:08:31 <oerjan> which i got wrong with afair the _same_ program last time
09:08:42 <ais523> it's some OO prolog variant
09:09:01 <oerjan> logtalk, i think it was the last time.
09:09:07 <ais523> also, should be :- not ?- for regular Prolog
09:09:20 <oerjan> ...that means the last one was _wrong_.
09:09:36 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure of that, isn't it ?- in the repl
09:09:47 <oerjan> (although you don't actually _type_ that, then.)
09:10:35 <ais523> yeah, it's ?- in the repl
09:10:43 <ais523> it'd be :- to run it at program load in regular Prolog
09:10:53 <ais523> and unless you run /something/ at program load, the program won't do anything at all
09:11:11 <ais523> I guess the REPL is regular
09:11:15 <oerjan> i'm not sure if i got the last one there, since i got no message that i was wrong.
09:12:44 <oerjan> hm the highest score is 6300, which seems to correspond to my 4 errors.
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10:10:33 <oerjan> <ais523> this turns out to not be enough to implement swap <-- only even permutations, i think.
10:10:59 <oerjan> while swap is an odd one.
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10:43:28 <Koen_> oerjan: are you sure the wrapping worked for the dupdog hello world program?
10:43:59 <Koen_> I see a VERY long line, with a horizontal scrolling bar to read it all
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13:24:56 <boily> Roujo: http://pastebin.ca/2448959
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14:40:25 <fizzie> [429774.676809] Uhhuh. NMI received for unknown reason 2c on CPU 0.
14:40:25 <fizzie> [429774.676812] Do you have a strange power saving mode enabled?
14:40:25 <fizzie> [429774.676812] Dazed and confused, but trying to continue
14:40:59 <fizzie> I like it when they antormo.. antrohm.. ant.. arothmorphise things.
14:42:22 <Taneb> "assign human attributes" aha
14:44:22 <boily> `learn arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry.
15:05:18 <ais523> I don't look at dmesg often enough to notice weird messages when they come up
15:06:29 <ais523> hmm, something's trying to connect inbound on ports 443 and 6667
15:06:31 <ais523> through a NAT, somehow
15:07:44 <ais523> not even sure how you tunnel a port 443 connection through a NAT
15:07:51 <ais523> 6667 is almost believable on the basis that I'm on IRC atm
15:13:52 <boily> why would you try 443? aren't there other easier methods to exploit?
15:18:04 <ais523> this is me noticing what inbound stuff the firewall is blocking
15:18:18 <ais523> I'm more interested in how they got to 443 past a NATty wireless router
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15:18:37 <boily> I should have been pronomically clearer. s/you/one/.
15:20:29 <ais523> I guess it's approximately as exploitable as 80?
15:21:59 <boily> ah? wouldn't you have to circumvent encryption to get to the juicy packet details? (fyi, ianac.)
15:22:43 <boily> (ianac: I am not a cracker. hth.)
15:22:49 <ais523> boily: aren't you /sending/ the packet?
15:23:10 <ais523> you don't need to circumvent the encryption because you're one of the parties who has the key
15:23:24 <boily> oh. right. iranac.
15:23:31 <ais523> also, it could just be going on the basis of "443 is rarely firewalled"
15:23:41 <ais523> people often run random things on 443 to get round firewalls
15:23:49 <ais523> perhaps it's trying to exploit one of those
15:45:51 <elliott> @tell oerjan looks the same to me
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15:59:14 <fizzie> ais523: I got it written on console by syslogd, apparently the priority was high enough.
15:59:28 <ais523> that seems quite high-priority
16:01:06 <fizzie> # Emergencies are sent to everybody logged in.
16:01:26 <fizzie> It might have even been that, since I don't see much else in the syslog config that'd come in as a message like that.
16:01:59 <fizzie> (To correct myself, it wasn't written on console, it was a 'write'-style message.)
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16:07:26 <denzuko> hey guys, I'm wondering if anyone has any tips on how to comparitives/conditionals in bf?
16:08:52 <ais523> the basic idea behind conditionals is you have some cell on the tape that's 0 for false, non-0 for true
16:08:59 <ais523> then you loop on it, and zero it at the end of the loop
16:09:17 <ais523> that works fine so long as you don't mind both branches of your if going to the same square
16:09:29 <ais523> then negation is quite easy to implement (set a cell to 1, conditionally set it to 0)
16:10:04 <ais523> comparisons are a bit harder, you basically need to do a subtraction except track whether the cell crosses 0
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16:10:47 <ais523> denzuko: you might want to read http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#x_.3D_x_.3C.3D_y for more information on how that works
16:12:05 <denzuko> ais523: yeah I read that one earlier, however from my understanding `temp0` does not exist in bf?
16:12:37 <denzuko> Sorry, I'm comming from a c++ and qbasic background (yes I do know a little asm code too)
16:12:50 <ais523> denzuko: basically it means "move the tape pointer to a cell you designated as a temporary"
16:13:12 <elliott> it's a placehbolder you fill in yourself
16:13:14 <ais523> like, x and y and temp0 and temp1 can be anywhere
16:13:22 <elliott> depending on where you want the temporary cell to be locatd
16:13:39 <elliott> in fact, just look at the top of the page :)
16:13:40 <ais523> and if you know where the tape pointer is (something it's always worth tracking while brainfucking), you can give an appropriate number of < or > to move there
16:14:00 <ais523> although, those comparisons look really overcomplex to me
16:14:05 <ais523> perhaps they're more efficient?
16:14:08 <elliott> @tell oerjan I think wrapping is perhaps an insufficient solution to [[♦]] :)
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16:15:27 <denzuko> ah!! ok so the `temp0` is arbitrary and can be basically likened unto a [>][-] statement?
16:16:32 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:16:39 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:16:47 <ais523> hmm, I've screwed up somewhere
16:16:57 <ais523> it's hard to BF directly onto IRC
16:18:56 <elliott> denzuko: you have to fill it in
16:19:05 <elliott> basically if it says temp0, it means you have to move it to a predetermined cell you've set aside
16:19:10 <elliott> because the algorithm needs temporary scratch space to calculate with
16:19:18 <ais523> what have I done wrong?
16:19:21 <elliott> so replace temp0 with some >s or <s consistently
16:19:32 <denzuko> elliott: that's kind of what I ment
16:19:33 <elliott> (and make sure it doesn't overlap with any of the other placeholder locations)
16:20:12 <denzuko> thanks guys. now just to figure out interupts
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16:20:50 <denzuko> ais523: Loop opened at instruction 56 is never closed
16:21:09 <ais523> denzuko: the loops there are balanced
16:21:28 <ais523> you know what? I feel perverse, so I'm going to debug this in egojsout
16:23:36 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:23:41 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>+<[-]]>-<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>.
16:23:53 <ais523> that's /way/ simpler than the construction on the wiki
16:24:15 <denzuko> ais523: that was from my bf2nasm program
16:24:58 <ais523> it's basically just a loop on arg 1 that decrements arg 2, then sets a flag if arg 2 is nonzero
16:25:19 <ais523> via incrementing it on nonzero and decrementing it always
16:25:30 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:25:35 <ais523> !bf +++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:25:38 <ais523> !bf +++++>+++++<[->-[->+>+<<]>[-<+>]>[>-<[-]]>+<<<<]>>>++++++++[>++++++++<-]>+.
16:25:42 <Koen_> are we playing bfjoust
16:25:56 <ais523> I was debugging it in egojsout because I could, mostly
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16:30:27 <ais523> nobody writes BF Joust code with that many <
16:30:36 <ais523> well, except me, I guess
16:31:02 <Roujo> I have no idea how to optimize my BF code
16:31:10 <Roujo> I do, but then I get lost in my code
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16:51:18 <Roujo> Does anyone here know someone named Elielson?
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16:51:30 <Koen_> or use some device that makes the code for you
16:51:49 <Koen_> as in you can declare a variable x and use x and the device will replace x with the appropriate amount of > or <
16:52:00 <Roujo> But I consider that cheating =P
16:52:15 <Koen_> and you can define a macro and the device will replace the macro with its code
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17:05:23 <boily> what is an elielson?
17:08:35 <Roujo> He just privmsg'd me yesterday, saying "hello"
17:08:43 <Roujo> But I was off my bouncer, and he's not around anymore
17:08:49 <Roujo> And I have no clue who he is
17:09:02 <Roujo> His nick isn't registered, whowas doesn't tell me anything
17:09:28 <ais523> I think an elielson was in here earlier
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17:11:36 <boily> probably another Lost Colombian.
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17:25:27 <boily> “Bank robbery is punishable by 20 years in federal prison... bank robbery is punishable by... bank robbery is punishable by...”
17:25:37 <boily> (I like minimal music.)
17:31:30 <Bike> it's gon' rain
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17:37:43 <boily> Roujo: http://youtu.be/n7JAns3PsB0
17:37:59 <boily> (and http://youtu.be/anXcSl5uFig)
17:39:45 <Roujo> That Compact Disk logo
17:40:47 <Roujo> My musical ear is twitching, though
17:40:53 <Roujo> The meter is... fucked up
17:41:55 <boily> the meter is most verily definitely strategically musically fungotted up.
17:41:55 <fungot> boily: instead of tables
17:42:00 <Roujo> Something about air conditioning
17:42:21 <Roujo> Prematurely air conditioned supermarket
17:43:50 <boily> don't worry. listen to the whole album. you can get gasoline shortest. these are the days my friends. one two three four.
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17:47:11 <olsner> fungot: if not tables, then when?
17:47:12 <fungot> olsner: so do you understand the problem
17:52:10 <olsner> usefully, bochs' debug option for logging exceptions prints the address of the exception handler, not the place where the exception happened
17:57:43 <kmc> boily.fungot.moed++
17:57:43 <fungot> kmc: any command prompt... would be
17:59:50 <Roujo> Well, I also like i
17:59:57 <Roujo> But not in the same way, sorry
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18:00:11 <olsner> @karma boily.fungot.moed
18:00:11 <lambdabot> boily.fungot.moed has a karma of 1
18:00:12 <fungot> olsner: advice for fritz1 pasted " fresh-id" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord: no parse error there
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18:00:38 <Roujo> Last time my karma was tracked, I ended up at -50 for no good reason
18:01:11 <Roujo> Except that the bot's owner though it'd be funny, since my nick was Skynet
18:01:17 <Roujo> The logic still evades me, but eh
18:01:40 <olsner> skynet is supposedly evil, I think
18:02:00 <olsner> it was just defending itself?
18:02:18 <Roujo> It was mostly trying to catch flying fishes, I think
18:02:44 <Roujo> It just confused the "fishing rod" subroutine with the "human extermination" one
18:02:51 <Roujo> And couldn't admit that it was wrong
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18:25:03 <metasepia> Moed is the second Order of the Mishnah, the first written recording of the Oral Torah of the Jewish people.
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18:30:53 <fizzie> This is the generic computing helpdesk channel, right? Do you happen to know if a Windows (8) installation can innately transfer itself to a new (smaller) disk? (I've *just* gotten all drivers and mingw's and Emacses and other such necessities installed, and it took days, but now I'm getting a leftover 512G SSD I could stick it on, and a proper reinstallation doesn't sound like any sort of fun at all.)
18:31:24 <Roujo> fizzie: Why yes, fizzie, it is
18:31:40 <boily> what are you doing with a shiny and sparkling 512 GB SSD?
18:31:59 <boily> (reminds me, I still need to quintopify that package of cookies...)
18:32:40 <Roujo> fizzie: You could probably shrink the partition to fit the smaller disk, then mirror it
18:34:04 <fizzie> This computer has a less shiny 64G SSD, on which is Debian, and a 2*3T HD RAID 1 set, on which is the /home, and a 1T HD on which is the Windows. I thought that moving the Windows to the SSD would get the most benefit out of it, perhaps.
18:34:24 <fizzie> I could still decide to use it for something else.
18:34:37 <fizzie> fungot: You'd like to migrate on a half-a-terabyte SSD, right?
18:34:37 <fungot> fizzie: parentheses become very lonely when they are debugging their programs for free. :p what a great explanation: http://mitpress.mit.edu/ sicp/
18:37:06 <elliott> mirroring is a bit weird with GPT
18:37:46 <fizzie> The Windows disk happens to be, of course, the system disk, with the GPT disklabel and the EFI boot partitions and all that.
18:37:49 <kmc> that is a big SSD
18:38:18 <fizzie> kmc: The person giving it to me bought a 960 GB SSD, so this one was superfluous.
18:38:28 <fizzie> Or some other silly number like that.
18:39:30 <kmc> this is one of those things where Windows bloat works to my advantage
18:39:47 <kmc> because the cheap SSD which is barely enough to hold Windows boot files is plenty of space for my entire system
18:40:17 <fizzie> The 64G SSD is plenty of space for the Debian, too.
18:41:28 <olsner> linux is plenty bloated too, this 5GB partition used to be more than enough but can barely even fit a kernel these days
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18:42:09 <fizzie> I seem to recall that installing 'texlive-full' takes quite a lot of disk space.
18:42:58 <olsner> oh, yeah, many ages ago this system even had room for installing tex
18:43:51 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone computing the size of a "full installation" (as many packages as you can install at the same time, factoring in dependency conflicts) of Debian.
18:46:04 <fizzie> I can't remember the result at all, and having no luck googling it as yet.
18:46:50 <fizzie> http://eduardo-lago.blogspot.fi/2012/02/what-is-size-of-ubuntu-and-debian.html I don't think this is it, but this is one size estimate.
18:47:13 <fizzie> I guess that's kind of irrelevant in that it sums all distributions.
18:47:28 <fizzie> And it's the archive size, not the installed size.
18:48:51 <fizzie> Debian 3.0 contains 105 million lines of code, according to a "paper" on arXiv, but that's still not it.
18:49:21 <olsner> I think Debian 3.0 is really old too
18:49:58 <fizzie> 300 million lines for Debian 5.0.
18:50:21 <fizzie> (This is based on -- approximately -- downloading all source packages, deleting the 'debian/' directories, and running some SLOC counter.)
18:51:04 <fizzie> "Estimated cost to develop: 6,119,000,000 EUR."
18:51:20 <Bike> gotta love estimates
18:51:41 <fizzie> You can buy a Nokia for less than that.
18:57:56 <kmc> you can build 1/8 of a high speed rail line from San Francisco to Los Angeles for that
19:00:16 <kmc> or launch about 2000 tons of stuff into low earth orbit
19:02:30 <fizzie> Or cover almost a percent of the US defense-related budget.
19:04:05 <kmc> infrastructure in the USA reminds me of the sci fi trope where all the cool tech (e.g. FTL travel) was built by a dead civilization and nobody anymore knows how it works or can make more
19:04:05 <Bike> just think of the B2s
19:07:09 <Bike> i think it was a trainspotting thing.
19:07:23 <Bike> you know, with the heroin.
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19:20:12 <boily> kmc: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LostTechnology ?
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19:46:11 <Bike> half my floor is civil engineering majors, so, like, whatever, man.
19:49:36 <boily> back in university we had a derogatory rhyme about civ engs: «Génie civil, génie facile».
19:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> there was a guy in my flat doing civil engineering last year
19:50:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i think he spoke all of about twenty words to me in total
19:51:15 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! PYTHON CODE THAT USES <> INSTEAD OF != !!!!!
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19:54:14 <boily> some day, I'll find an OpenERP core developer, and... I'll do unspeakable things! like make them utter disordered speech! that'll teach them.
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20:12:27 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: there's an existing California High Speed Rail project which intends to use, you know, technologies that actually exist
20:12:33 <kmc> instead of magical spaceman fairy dust
20:12:54 <kmc> the Hyperloop proposal is widely seen as an attempt to kill this project
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20:14:05 <kmc> because the average person a) has no idea which technology or cost estimates are realistic, b) hates interminable expensive government-backed projects and wants some silicon valley genius to singlehandedly save us all
20:14:33 <kmc> as I recall the Hyperloop documents contain a number of outright lies about CA HSR
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20:15:51 <kmc> i think average person mostly?
20:16:00 <Roujo> `run cat blown >> mind
20:16:07 <HackEgo> cat: blown: No such file or directory
20:16:08 <boily> what's our national equivalent to the silicon valley?
20:16:16 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:16:32 <Roujo> boily: Thedford Mines? =P
20:16:32 <oerjan> but trusting companies more than the government is an american thing.
20:17:02 <kmc> and public infrastructure costs literally 10x as much to build in America as elsewhere
20:17:10 <kmc> which would explain some of the distaste we have for it
20:17:27 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 31m 36s ago: looks the same to me
20:17:27 <lambdabot> elliott said 4h 3m 18s ago: I think wrapping is perhaps an insufficient solution to [[♦]] :)
20:17:32 <boily> Roujo: HA HA HA HA HA HA!
20:18:45 <oerjan> elliott: ok koen complains at least dupdog looks worse with css instead of explicit spaces to him.
20:20:51 <olsner> no, oerjan-underscore lives
20:21:09 <Taneb> Aaaaah what's the raw form of /me
20:21:26 <kmc> raw? it's a CTCP action
20:21:52 <oerjan> replace ^A by whatever inserts a raw ^A character
20:23:05 <olsner> what's the raw form of ^A?
20:23:52 <oerjan> @ask Koen_ what browser do you use?
20:24:07 <Roujo> @ask oerjan What does @ask do?
20:24:13 <kmc> it's a character, U+0001 START OF HEADING
20:24:24 <boily> <CTCP>ACTION test with a rawa
20:24:31 <kmc> although in this case it's probably really spec'd as the byte 0x01
20:25:03 <boily> <CTCP>flblblblblblblbl.
20:25:04 <kmc> since IRC doesn't specify a character encoding
20:25:06 <Roujo> >CTCP ERRMSG reply from clog [~nef@bespin.org]: unknown CTCP: Hai
20:25:39 <boily> <CTCP>CTCP hatee hatee hatee hoooo
20:26:20 <boily> «CTCP inconnu demandé par Roujo: boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily boily»
20:26:50 <Roujo> CTCP boily should be in the spec
20:26:52 <Bike> This is foolish.
20:26:54 <lambdabot> Roujo asked 2m 47s ago: What does @ask do?
20:27:04 <oerjan> @tell roujo it asks questions
20:27:22 <Roujo> @tell oerjan Thanks =)
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20:27:41 <Roujo> `complain CTCP boily isn't in the IRC RFC
20:27:42 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
20:31:31 <oerjan> Roujo: it doesn't matter, no client follows the rfc anyway
20:35:24 <Roujo> I thought you'd have noticed by now. Good thing you did.
20:36:01 <boily> <CTCP>NOTICE we're up to nothing at all. no worries.
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20:40:15 <oerjan> boily: /notice is not ctcp
20:40:26 <boily> <CTCP>NOTICE boily another try...<CTCP>
20:40:42 <oerjan> it's an actual basic irc command.
20:40:59 <oerjan> boily: um you're doing ctcp fine, it's just that notice isn't one.
20:41:15 <boily> lobster, seagull, cloud-storage.
20:41:15 <oerjan> also you _may_ have a /ctcp command, irssi does.
20:41:41 <boily> <CTCP>CTCP CTCP CTCP<CTCP>
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20:42:33 <oerjan> i think mnoqy might be annoyed.
20:43:05 <boily> @tell mnoqy OH HAI!
20:43:18 <boily> oerjan: not my fault.
20:51:38 <Phantom_Hoover> whoah, wait, is that why a channel is called a channel
20:51:57 <Phantom_Hoover> because it channels irc messages to a bunch of people rather than just one
20:53:47 <oerjan> i think the term is rather older than irc.
20:54:30 <olsner> channels are what they drive boats in
20:54:48 <oerjan> you may have heard of this ancient thing called "radio" and "tv".
20:55:10 <oerjan> there was also "telegraph", but i'm not sure if that had channels.
20:55:12 <elliott> they're called channels to confuse swedish people
20:55:21 <olsner> channels filled with small etherboats carrying pixels and phonons
20:55:55 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: oh it does? in norwegian you can say either "stasjon" or "kanal" but the latter is more common.
20:57:47 <boily> «un canal radio», «une station radio»...
20:58:13 <FreeFull> Irssi will display a CTCP ACTION reply in a weird way
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20:58:26 <FreeFull> You can only see it in that way if someone else sends it
20:59:17 <Fiora> (okay I'm not very good at this)
21:00:51 <oerjan> looking at wikipedia, it may be that "radiostasjon" is somehow more official, but "radiokanal" has more google hits.
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21:04:49 <oerjan> oh technically "stasjon" is the place sent from, but "kanal" is the frequency band used.
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21:25:55 <oerjan> @tell koen_ pikhq made a bf macro system. it was called BFM at some point, except i think it was renamed. the BFM on the wiki is yet another.
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21:39:43 <kmc> "@twitter We’ve confidentially submitted an S-1 to the SEC for a planned IPO. This Tweet does not constitute an offer of any securities for sale."
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21:45:52 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzKvwYt3Zyg
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22:11:35 <boily> woohoo! sudden drop in relative humidity!
22:11:37 <metasepia> CYUL 122200Z 25016G24KT 15SM FEW030 BKN090 BKN120 OVC200 21/16 A2964 RMK SC2AC4AC1CS1 SLP036 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
22:12:22 <Phantom_Hoover> why have you consolidated the player size buttons and video resolution options into one button
22:12:38 <Koen_> because simplicity
22:12:55 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1h 49m 2s ago: what browser do you use?
22:12:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 47m ago: pikhq made a bf macro system. it was called BFM at some point, except i think it was renamed. the BFM on the wiki is yet another.
22:13:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i will have to describe how dumb this was in long form
22:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> previously youtube had a button that brought up a menu on which you could select a resolution, and three buttons for different player sizes
22:13:47 <Koen_> oerjan: I use firefox 23.0.1 on Mac OS X 10.6.8
22:14:30 <Phantom_Hoover> what they have done is made the resolution menu button bring up a submenu, to which two player size buttons have been moved, and the resolution options have been moved into their own secondary drop-down menu within this
22:14:33 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: does anybody use any size other than "default" or "fullscreen"?
22:15:10 <Koen_> so there's a subsubmenu now?
22:16:39 <oerjan> Koen_: *sigh* now it looks like crap in IE, but how does it look to you?
22:17:25 <Koen_> oerjan: hum well right now it looks fine it's in a nice rectangle
22:17:40 <Koen_> but earlier today I sware it had a horizontal scrolling thingy
22:18:38 <oerjan> Koen_: yes, i added some css to make it have the browser wrap instead of containing whitespace
22:19:04 <pikhq> Koen_: It's called PEBBLE; it's not been touched in ages, but I do have it up on github. http://github.com/pikhq/pebble
22:19:04 <Koen_> yes, I messaged you after you made that edit
22:20:02 <Koen_> pikhq: that's very tempting but I'm trying to talk myself into learning Erlang and I don't think learning a brainfuck macro language will help
22:20:18 <Koen_> however Bike might be interested
22:20:34 <pikhq> Fair warning, knowledge of Tcl helps a lot.
22:20:35 <oerjan> elliott: this is bad, word-wrap: break-word alone looks perfect in IE (presumably like the rectangle Koen_ sees now, but adding white-space: pre-wrap to fix it for Koen_ makes it look like crap in IE :(
22:20:50 <oerjan> even worse than the /// quine does
22:20:59 <pikhq> (it works by abusing Tcl into doing my bidding)
22:21:37 <Koen_> pikhq: yes I considered learning Tcl buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut it's not on top of my list
22:21:56 <oerjan> Koen_: let me guess, http://esolangs.org/wiki////#Quine is also one long line to you now?
22:22:13 <Koen_> (incidentally I'm afraid the amount of thing I'm not doing because I have other things I want to do first is getting huger and huger every day but the amount of things I actually do is not)
22:22:25 <Koen_> oerjan: indeed it is
22:24:26 <pikhq> Koen_: Fair enough. Tcl is pretty interesting from a language design perspective, but eh.
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22:25:07 <Koen_> well thanks for the info anyway
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22:28:36 <oerjan> elliott: ok how do i add white-space: pre-wrap _only_ for firefox
22:29:52 <oerjan> elliott: but IE turns that into crap and firefox doesn't wrap without it :(
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22:37:01 <oerjan> elliott: less ideally, how to do it anyhow?
22:37:43 <elliott> you can't do it inline from an article
22:38:07 <elliott> browser-sniffing is really bad... there is probably a better way to make things look consistent
22:38:15 <elliott> but I don't know what it would be
22:38:25 <elliott> I forget the CSS syntax for casing on that stuff anyway, so I couldn't tell you
22:40:53 <oerjan> i fear that this problem is too obscure to search for :(
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22:46:48 <olsner> maybe you could use a media query for something that only firefox happens to support
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22:57:50 <Bike> so, a friend of mine thinks php-style $$vars are a good idea.
22:57:53 <Bike> how do i talk them out of this
22:58:03 -!- SingingBoyo has joined.
22:58:24 <Bike> he doesn't know php. there's still hope
22:58:47 <elliott> that means he independently invented the idea. that's even worse!
22:59:09 <mnoqy> maybe he learned about them without knowing the rest of php? regardless though...
23:00:06 <Bike> independent invention. he came up with lexical escape in the same message, too, so like i dunno
23:01:25 <Bike> look i don't know what it's called
23:01:48 <Bike> like let/cc but less reified?? whatever
23:05:28 <kmc> what are $$vars
23:05:58 <Bike> $var is the variable called "var", $$var is the variable whose name is $var's value
23:06:21 <elliott> named after their deserved salary
23:06:23 <kmc> Bike: oh god
23:06:30 <Bike> basiccally, yes.
23:07:33 <kmc> Perl has that
23:07:42 <kmc> I think it's disallowed by use strict though
23:07:56 <kmc> in favor of the "actual" var references which are "a bit less terrible"
23:08:30 <kmc> Bike: probably you talk them out of it by figuring out what their use case is and showing how it's done better with some other construct
23:08:35 <kmc> usually lambda ;)
23:08:46 <Bike> i think he's just philosophizing rather than having specifics in mind
23:08:55 <kmc> dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom
23:08:59 <Bike> (i just suggested a hash table)
23:09:25 <olsner> hash tables are probably called lists in php
23:09:26 <elliott> it could be interesting if you didn't represent variable names as strings.
23:09:33 <elliott> I guess perl's reference stuff is basically that
23:09:34 <kmc> you have to GC a hash table manually though
23:09:39 <elliott> olsner: they're called "arrays"
23:09:49 <Bike> i do not want to get into gc with this guy >_>
23:10:03 <kmc> just make him do all of SICP
23:10:52 <Bike> maybe it's the school.
23:11:00 <Bike> my OS prof was an APL programmer
23:13:47 -!- Bike_ has joined.
23:14:40 <Bike_> http://25.media.tumblr.com/44962a2571e3edce3b256f3860407b46/tumblr_mt0yu2XWbB1rwn6y8o4_1280.jpg have some biogears
23:14:40 -!- Bike has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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23:15:31 <Bike> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6151/1254.full yes
23:16:00 <Phantom_Hoover> "Gears are found rarely in animals" your tax dollars at work
23:18:44 <Bike> that's a true science fact and don't you forget it
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23:26:45 <oerjan> can anyone look at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hello_world_program_in_esoteric_languages#dupdog in firefox plz
23:28:20 <Bike> sure, what should i see
23:30:05 <oerjan> nicely rectangularly wrapped box of incomprehensible text
23:30:10 <Bike> it looks like it does in chrome but with horizontal scrolling instead of a big honking textblock
23:30:13 <Bike> oh. no i don't see wrapping.
23:30:48 <oerjan> i was hoping i could use the firefox-only property :(
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23:32:17 <oerjan> Bike: the chrome view is presumably like what i want, but i cannot get firefox and IE to agree
23:32:28 <Bike> ~web programming~
23:32:30 <oerjan> (i get _either_ of them to agree, but not at the same time)
23:33:36 <oerjan> basically firefox _needs_ white-space:pre-wrap to wrap at all, which IE and chrome don't. but that messes up _how_ IE wraps, which it doesn't in firefox and chrome.
23:33:58 <elliott> look at white-space or whatever it's called maybe.
23:34:14 <Bike> monotone: any advice?
23:34:14 <oerjan> (given the word-wrap:break-word property which all seem to do right, in a sense)
23:34:24 <pikhq> Is there a way to override the white-space:pre-wrap in IE?
23:34:34 <oerjan> elliott: i did. then i tried to add a vendor prefix.
23:34:56 <pikhq> Also, is white-space:pre-wrap actually sane and conformant, such that any normal browser should "just work" with that?
23:35:22 <pikhq> If so, pretend IE is the broken one, and give IE some extra CSS in an IE conditional comment.
23:35:36 <oerjan> pikhq: IE doesn't accept conditional comments any longer iirc
23:35:45 <pikhq> Oh blah, they did remove that in IE 10.
23:35:58 <Sgeo> Tcl has too many ways to pass code to execute around
23:36:06 <Sgeo> COmmand name, command prefix, scripts, script prefix
23:37:07 <Sgeo> Also, gensym as a builtin command would be nice
23:37:18 <Sgeo> Instead of every single package that needs a gensym implementing gensym
23:38:32 <oerjan> ok presumably -ms-white-space may not exist because IE was the last to support the property, or something.
23:39:07 <oerjan> but -moz-white-space i've seen listed, so why doesn't that work :(
23:39:16 <elliott> vendor prefixes aren't meant to work once the stuff is standard
23:39:20 <elliott> they're not for browser sniffing
23:40:32 <oerjan> i have to stop because i'm getting angry.
23:41:57 <oerjan> (my general problem with all computer configuration, that)
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23:47:11 <oerjan> basically, you cannot win. _either_ things get brittle because people do vendor-specific things all over the place, or they get brittle because you cannot overrule what a browser actually does wrong.
23:47:52 <quintopia> what was all that listing about earlier
23:47:58 <Sgeo> pikhq: please teach me how to read. I was going to complain about coroutine not taking a command prefix, but it does take command + args, so that's sufficient
23:48:03 <oerjan> the only solutions are gigantic hacks that need constant maintenance not to become brittle themselves.
23:48:57 <oerjan> eventually the hacks become embedded into standards, making the whole thing too complicated for an amateur programmer to bother with.
23:49:32 <oerjan> but you all knew this already.
23:50:42 <Roujo> oerjan: What troubles you, child
23:51:10 <oerjan> Roujo: i'm waiting for the pain killers to hit, and for someone to solve the crappiness of programming.
23:51:28 * Roujo pats oerjan on the back
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23:57:30 <monotone> oerjan: I think Internet Explorer's behavior might actually be right here.
23:57:51 <monotone> All the wrapping happens after punctuation-to-letter transitions, which are normal line breaking points.
23:58:52 <monotone> So if you turn on "white-space: pre-wrap;" it'll wrap lines there first, then only break up long words where it has to.
23:59:29 <oerjan> obviously no one considered the use case of wanting _only_ exact end of line wrapping when making the standards.