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00:51:35 <zzo38> My character may join "Aberration Saver". What would you think of such thing like that?
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01:16:36 <zzo38> I don't know if it can be explained so easily, sorry
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01:17:17 <zzo38> But I can try to explain it a little big
01:17:39 <kmc> it's hard to know what we think of such thing like that if we don't know which thing it is
01:17:56 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, I know, but I thought you might know
01:18:04 <zzo38> I can try to explain in a minute
01:18:23 <zzo38> It is related to the god Gxxyuxihuvxi
01:18:40 <Bike> this is a good explanation.
01:18:58 <zzo38> It is the patron deity of my character
01:19:11 <kmc> the patron deity of consonants
01:19:48 <zzo38> It is the society to save such creatures, which can be against opposing society but they don't necessarily have some patron deity
01:21:38 <zzo38> It is difficult to pronounce so sometimes they call "The god who shall not be named because is difficult to pronounce".
01:23:25 <kmc> "It has a very high vapor pressure, for a metal"
01:25:36 <zzo38> If you watch how I play the Dungeons&Dragons game then maybe you can know kind of what kind of things I mean.
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01:28:36 <zzo38> They are the god of good aligned aberration type creatures. Their holy and ritual and temple and so on are often considered confusing by others, however.
01:29:33 <zzo38> Sometimes even wrong, but, you have to think about it for yourself too, and see if it is sensible!
01:29:47 <zzo38> Even if it is simultaneously sane and insane, is also OK too.
01:30:06 <zzo38> Now do you like this?
01:30:16 <zzo38> kmc: What kind of metal do you mean?
01:52:53 <zzo38> O, that's what it is.
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02:06:14 <zzo38> Have I explained enough now?
02:13:02 <zzo38> Would you have something to say about it then?
02:13:51 <quintopia> i don't know enough about your play style
02:15:52 <zzo38> You could read the recording of the game, and/or to ask question, answer, complaint, comment, confusing, and thinking.
02:17:31 <zzo38> I would say, I often do unusual kind of things, I suppose.
02:18:34 <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell.
02:19:53 <kmc> how will you attack the darkness
02:20:47 <Bike> i can respect that answer
02:21:14 <zzo38> My character can see in dark anyways (usually; sometimes there is magical darkness that you can't see, but I have ways to get around that too and it depend on circumstances)
02:21:53 <zzo38> Although often the things I do are not spell casting anyways
02:23:15 <zzo38> A lot of things rather have to do with items, such as cat fur, rusty nails, bone, stone, lock picks, astrolabe, rope, IOU, and so on.
02:23:35 <zzo38> The DM thought the astrolabe would be completely useless, but, I used it.
02:23:55 <kmc> `addquote <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
02:23:59 <zzo38> My character sheet is available on the computer though
02:23:59 <HackEgo> 1105) <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
02:24:28 <zzo38> I usually don't need to attack the darkness though
02:26:52 <zzo38> It is usually bright areas that we attack
02:27:09 <zzo38> Simply because the opponent would not attack if they cannot see!
02:27:19 <kmc> zzo38: can you pick locks in real life or only in the dungeons & dragons game
02:27:27 <kmc> zzo38: maybe the opponent has magical sight
02:27:57 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, if they do have magical sight, or just if they can naturally see in dark, then they can, but my character can see in dark too
02:28:06 <zzo38> But is not very good at combat
02:28:54 <zzo38> I have managed to escape far more severe situations than that
02:29:34 <quintopia> have you? or was it your character?
02:30:21 <quintopia> if you've been mugged by a crack addict with a pistol in the middle of the night, i'll concede you've survived grue-level challenges
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02:36:03 <Sgeo> Apparently, 1 bowl of mac and cheese is not a sufficient dinner
02:36:38 <Sgeo> According to my still hungry stomach
02:44:01 <quintopia> you need a box of velveeta shells and cheese with broccoli
02:44:40 <Sgeo> I wonder if Stop&Shop would sell meat thermometers
02:45:00 <Sgeo> So I could feel comfortable buying ... oh I don't know if fridge/freezer actually work
02:45:24 <quintopia> are you still in farmingdale or whatever
02:46:51 <zzo38> No, you have to read the recording to learn!
02:47:50 <quintopia> the recording wouldn't tell me whether you've been mugged by a canadian crack addict
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03:00:00 <Sgeo> quintopia: yes
03:00:06 <Sgeo> Not in college anymoe
03:21:11 <zzo38> I have not been mugged by a Canadian crack addict and neither have my characters.
03:21:48 <zzo38> My playing style has sometimes been compared with Batman.
03:23:31 <zzo38> In the game, once my character was being captured, and I decided not to resist being captured; after all they were taking me to the place I was intending to go anyways. Sometimes deceptive tactics can help.
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03:24:10 <zzo38> My tactics are rarely fighting.
03:28:01 <zzo38> They are more likely confusions, deceptions, preparation, defense, outsmarting opponent, and mainly thinking ahead a lot and using what we happen to have in the given situation.
03:28:19 <zzo38> For example, using the phase of the moon to your advantage, or the day of the week.
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04:29:14 <zzo38> There are many reasons to avoid the use of magic in many situations, and this is what is done. It can include to save the magic for later, or to do other things that work even in anti magic field, to not allow others to identify the spell, and because magical things can go wrong and/or have less likely chances to work.
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04:29:38 <zzo38> However, when magic is used, you have to do things such as taking advantage of the exact duration of the spell, and other side-effects.
04:33:07 <zzo38> Often, mundane things will do.
04:43:14 <zzo38> Such as, like I mentioned, phase of the moon, day of the week, astrolabe, slant of the floor, the arrangement of things in a room or of hallways and rooms in a building, mundane deception or lack of it, Sicilian reasoning, the style of writing of a book, the size and type of paper used to write a message, the current season, time of day, sunrise and sunset times, and a whole bunch of other things like that.
04:43:33 <zzo38> This is how you should learn to play the Dungeons&Dragons game!
04:44:54 <zzo38> Can you play the game like this?
05:00:50 <zzo38> It isn't like chess, where you have to act every turn; you are allowed to pass your turn, and it is often useful to do so.
05:04:07 <zzo38> You can save someone by retreating instead.
05:06:25 <zzo38> In the manga "Kaiji", Kaiji manages to beat a pachinko game partially by the floor being slanted because of someone doing construction nearby.
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07:44:45 <Taneb> I woke up this morning in a mathsy mood
07:45:00 <Taneb> Finally worked out /why/ you can get the Fibonacci series from Pascal's triangle
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07:56:29 <Taneb> Which gives me a weird idea for a Fibonacci sequence program
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08:15:48 <fizzie> "Special course in Language Technology: Language, Motion and Emotion" ... "The course is multi- and interdisciplinary --"
09:03:52 <fizzie> "NOTE! currently system is at most 8*65536 bytes long. This should be no problem, even in the future. I want to keep it simple. This 512 kB kernel size should be enough --" (linux-0.01 bootloader comment) 2.4M /boot/vmlinuz-3.10-2-amd64 (Debian testing) A bit of a discrepancy there.
09:13:12 <olsner> and those 2.4MB is the compressed size! (maybe the 512kB were too?)
09:14:26 <fizzie> I don't think the 0.01 code does decompression.
09:15:14 <fizzie> Something else I learned: the current boot sector header of the (x86) kernel just prints "Direct floppy boot is not supported. Use a boot loader program instead." and reboots: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/master/arch/x86/boot/header.S
09:15:31 <fizzie> I was sort of assuming there still was a vestigial boot loader there.
09:21:11 <olsner> I wonder if they tried removing it completely first but then got tons of bug reports about corrupt kernels not being bootable
09:25:59 <fizzie> It said "Direct booting from floppy is no longer supported. Please use a boot loader program instead." -- a slightly different wording -- in bugger_off_msg in Jun 20, 2012.
09:29:36 <fizzie> Huh, it didn't support floppy boot in 2009 when zImage support (in addition to bzImage -- which is still gzip, I understand it's a common misconception to think it's bzip2) was dropped.
09:29:48 <fizzie> And in fact it did not support floppy boot in 2007 either.
09:30:17 <fizzie> Nor in 2005, which is as far back as github's history view of bootsect.S goes.
09:32:23 <fizzie> (Back to 2.6.12, which seems to be the first Git-managed kernel. Well, maybe LXR knows more.)
09:34:51 <fizzie> 2.5.64 still supports floppy boot, and 2.5.65 already has the "not supported" error message.
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09:36:16 <Taneb> That's a quick change
09:36:35 <fizzie> "Summary of changes from v2.5.64 to v2.5.65" "Peter Anvin <hpa@zytor.com>: bootsect removal"
09:39:08 <olsner> I've already removed my boot sector and I'm not even at 0.01
09:39:38 <fizzie> Curiously enough, 2.5.64 itself changes bootsect.S by adding the value 21 to the 'disksizes' (supported sector/track numbers) array.
09:40:11 <fizzie> I have a feeling perhaps that change prompted someone to get rid of the whole thing.
09:43:21 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/KXBH best thing?
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10:25:56 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 I have also started seeing the thing where wikipedia tries to change to https automatically. I kind of like it. I think it's set by the "Always use a secure connection when logged in" preference.
10:30:58 <ais523_> bleh, reading proggit is making my hatred of github less irrational
10:31:02 <ais523_> should I be annoyed at this?
10:35:45 <olsner> how does proggit affect your opinion of github?
10:36:26 <ais523_> there's someone reporting on how they managed to send 300,000 emails in 4 minutes /accidentally/ because they were trying to migrate an issue tracker to Github
10:36:33 <ais523_> also that it turns out that there's no other way to do it
10:37:23 <ais523_> yeah, git is suboptimal as a VCS
10:37:36 <Gregor> Yeah, I find that flabbergasting.
10:37:44 <Gregor> Since it's hideously unusable.
10:38:08 <ais523_> git story: I spent like an hour last night trying to figure out a git command to print the hash of HEAD
10:38:23 <ais523_> I'm not sure if there's any 100% reliable way to do it, and there's no /obvious/ way to do it
10:38:39 <ais523_> my current best solution is git log --pretty=format:%H -1
10:39:17 <Gregor> Yeah, git is honestly the worst thing ever. I have to assume that there was malicious intent in its design, because even programmers can't eff up UIs that badly.
10:39:29 <ais523_> Gregor: the actual explanation is that it doesn't have a UI
10:39:42 <ais523_> it has a programming API, which they planned to build a UI on top of
10:39:52 <ais523_> so people started using the API directly
10:40:33 <Gregor> What I find most perplexing is that people actually think git is usable.
10:40:50 <Gregor> I know I'm not insane, so I'm forced to conclude that they are.
10:41:03 <ais523_> I find it "usable" in the sense of "possible to use"
10:41:11 <ais523_> but not in the sense of "usability"
10:41:26 <ais523_> I guess git is the C of version control systems
10:41:42 <ais523_> it lets you do just about anything, but at the expense of needing a lot of complexity to do anything
10:42:07 <Gregor> I find that even without any guidance, it's easier to do everything in hg-git VIA A REPOSITORY FORMAT TRANSLATION than it is to do the same in git with github's help pages.
10:42:09 <ais523_> (personally I prefer darcs)
10:42:20 <ais523_> also github don't understand git, AFAICT
10:42:31 <ais523_> they have a github client for Windows that is incapable of doing some of the most basic operations
10:43:01 <fizzie> ais523_: "git rev-parse HEAD" not doing it?
10:43:01 <Gregor> I used to use darcs, switched to hg because it was good enough and more popular, looked at git and cried for a generation of programmers.
10:43:20 <ais523_> fizzie: I thought I tried that, not at a computer with git on right now so I can't check
10:43:31 <ais523_> perhaps it was something similar I tried
10:43:40 <fizzie> It works in the one repository I tried.
10:43:53 <Gregor> Anyway, I now manage everything on bitbucket/hg and have it automatically cloned to github :)
10:44:00 <Gregor> I recommend this solution for everyone.
10:44:10 <ais523_> I don't, it involves having contact with github
10:44:22 <Gregor> ais523_: The problem is, lots of services that want to be trendy are github-only.
10:44:33 <ais523_> well that just makes them easier to ignore :)
10:44:52 <Gregor> Thanks to having a github clone, I can have all my tests run automatically on every push; and I don't have to touch github itself except on initial commit.
10:45:30 <Gregor> Although Google recruiters have only tried to pick me up over my /bitbucket/ activity, so I guess at least the recruitment world isn't github-only.
10:45:42 <ais523_> Gregor: they tried to pick me up over something, and I have no idea what
10:45:49 <ais523_> just "we see you are active in Open Source"
10:46:14 <ais523_> which could be anything from the smallish patches I have in Gnome, to C-INTERCAL
10:47:03 <Gregor> What I find hilarious is how the Google pick-up artists clearly don't go one step further, to "oh you publish stuff relevant to us"
10:47:17 <Gregor> Their whole process is "clearly we don't give a shit about research, but you can be a code monkey, boy"
10:48:10 <ais523_> well I assumed it was an automated process
10:48:10 <HackEgo> 1105) <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
10:48:38 <oerjan> `run sed -i '1105s/ </ </g' quotes
10:48:44 <Gregor> ais523_: Not /entirely/. Probably the initial selection is, but if you're polite and reply "no thank you" then you get a human. And further contact. FOREVER.
10:48:46 <HackEgo> 1105) <zzo38> For example I don't have the "Magic Missile" spell. <kmc> how will you attack the darkness <zzo38> By surprise!
10:49:07 <ais523_> Gregor: I told them that I was busy doing a PhD, and check back in 4 years
10:49:14 <ais523_> I'm waiting to see if they do or not
10:49:28 <Taneb> ais523_, how is your PhD going?
10:49:48 <ais523_> Taneb: decently, although I'm annoyed at the lack of research to build upon
10:50:07 <ais523_> it feels like I have to do all the fundamental research myself just so that I can do the research I actually want to do
10:50:19 <Taneb> If I remember correctly, it's something that I am afraid that I am not particularly interested in
10:50:30 <fizzie> We just sent a 14-page reply letter for reviewer comments about a 12-page paper, in the interests of being thorough.
10:50:37 <ais523_> and meanwhile, my supervisor's asking why I'm writing a paper about formalizing delay-insensitive asynchronous hardware rather than working on my thesis
10:51:17 <oerjan> `run grep '[^ ] <' quotes
10:51:19 <HackEgo> IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oerjan> In an alternate universe, I would say "In an alternate universe,
10:51:30 <oerjan> `run grep '[^: ] <' quotes
10:51:32 <HackEgo> <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing \ (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P \ <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your wate
10:51:41 <oerjan> `run grep '[^]: ] <' quotes
10:51:43 <HackEgo> (in #irp) <Sgeo> Flonk, ask on #esoteric? <Flonk> Sgeo: yeah well its C++, so not that esoteric :P \ <Gregor> <badgood> GOODBAD! Your watered down brand of evil conflicts with my botched attempts at dogoodery! \ <cpressey> < ais523> then running repeatedly until you get the right sequence of random numbers < ais523> and just completely ignoring
10:52:10 <oerjan> `run allquotes | grep '[^]: ] <'
10:52:11 <HackEgo> 1) <Aftran> I used computational linguistics to kill her. \ 2) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 3) <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ 4) <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> roc
10:52:43 <ais523_> Taneb: you should be intrested in this stuff anyway, it's interesting!
10:52:55 <oerjan> `run grep '[^]: ] <' quotes | tail
10:52:57 <HackEgo> <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat \ <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theor
10:53:24 <Taneb> I have a feeling I don't know enough context for its interest to become apparent, ais523_
10:53:56 <Taneb> Having not yet begun to receive any formal education in computer science
10:54:18 <ais523_> Taneb: well basically it's about type systems that require specific useful-for-hardware properties on programs that type in them
10:54:35 <ais523_> things like "there is never more than one copy of this function running concurrently"
10:55:20 <Taneb> (my first lecture is in 3 weeks)
10:56:10 <ais523_> and it's interesting because maths doesn't have a notion of, say, "simultaneously", unless you add it into the type system yourself
10:56:17 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
10:56:26 <ais523_> (nor does it have a notion of causality; forgetting to put causality into your type system is an easy mistake to make)
10:57:07 <Taneb> My first CS lecture will be presented by one of the creators of Haskell
10:58:35 <fizzie> Colin is the name for a dog.
10:59:10 <oerjan> @tell kmc `? quoteformat hth
11:04:30 <Taneb> ...is it even possible to tear apart the very fabric of reality?
11:05:10 <ais523_> Taneb: even if it is, I wouldn't recommend doing so
11:05:43 <Taneb> It has just struck me how weird that cliché is
11:06:59 <oerjan> <Taneb> Finally worked out /why/ you can get the Fibonacci series from Pascal's triangle <-- wait what
11:07:26 <Taneb> oerjan, right align it and sum the left-down diagonals
11:07:53 <oerjan> Taneb: see the plot to "Schild's Ladder"
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11:12:16 <ais523_> btw, has #esoteric seen what's been happening with aimake recently?
11:12:20 <ais523_> it feels like a pretty eso project
11:15:30 <oerjan> the the README doesn't explain the ai part
11:16:20 <ais523_> oerjan: well it's not really AI
11:16:33 <ais523_> it's a cross between "it figures everything out automatically", and the first two letters of "ais523"
11:16:42 <ais523_> assuming you're looking at my aimake rather than someone else's
11:17:35 <oerjan> sorry, went to the top google link, now i see no. 2 is on nethack4.org which seems more promising :P
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11:18:09 <ais523_> it was at #2 even before I documented it
11:18:18 <ais523_> so I suspect it'll climb quickly if it starts being used for anything at all but NetHack 4
11:19:14 <oerjan> nah, how can you possibly compete with iOS and android integration, man
11:19:36 <oerjan> (only slightly joking there)
11:19:44 <ais523_> I guess I don't necessarily have to /compete/, I could just add support for them
11:19:53 <ais523_> but that'd mean actually screwing around with mobile dev
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11:26:44 <Taneb> Right, parts of DF don't really work at 80x25, can anyone suggest a larger but still "nice" terminal size?
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11:27:58 <Taneb> oerjan, "nice" suggests "feasible to run on a modern computer"
11:28:07 <fizzie> I thought "nice" suggested "accurate".
11:29:36 <Taneb> fizzie, only for prophecies
11:30:00 <oerjan> i use 80x43 in putty. that's of course the maximal vertical height that fits with my desired font size.
11:30:24 <fizzie> You can have a nice 1920x720 terminal on a modern computer. (Just take a 2x2 grid of 3840x2160 monitors and put a 4x6 font on it.)
11:31:53 <oerjan> i think cassandra would have something to say about nice ~ accurate for prophecies, although no one would believe her of course.
11:32:10 <fizzie> My typical "two terminals" setup here at work seems to be 119x88.
11:47:01 <fizzie> @tell ais523 The HTMLization at http://nethack4.org/projects/aimake/documentation.html seems to have made a mungle out of the levels of -v: levels >= 0 are missing the "titles", being just an unordered list. (In fact, the HTML has totally mismatched tags.)
11:48:30 <Jafet> Oh I remember dfhack, that game was not bad
11:49:29 <Taneb> Jafet, dfhack is a sort of cheaty tool for Dwarf Fortress
11:50:15 <Jafet> I don't know where you read that. dfhack is an urist management game based on the dwarf fortress simulation engine
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11:52:22 <ais523_> come to think of it, aimake configuration files are probably Turing-complete
11:52:49 <Jafet> Is that like probably polynomial time
11:54:09 <fizzie> ais523_: I sent the underscoreless you a message.
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11:54:23 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_.
11:54:39 <ais523_> fizzie: I actually fixed the -v mangle last night
11:54:45 <ais523_> had a chance to push it yet
11:54:55 <ais523_> basically, pod2html seems really buggy
11:55:08 <ais523_> another bizarre thing it did was add semicolons to the URLs in the GPLv3
11:56:02 <fizzie> The links also include the > character in them, but that's perhaps understandable.
11:56:23 <fizzie> Oh, the semicolons are actually probably leftovers from the ">" that ends in the link.
11:56:44 <fizzie> "-- see <<a href="http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>">http://www.gnu.org/licenses/></a>;."
11:56:48 <ais523_> perhaps I should try to find (or write) a less buggy POD to HTML convertor than the one that ships with Perl
11:57:03 <ais523_> and oh wow, that's the worst escaping fail I've seen
11:57:08 <ais523_> it probably parses with regexes or something
11:57:31 <fizzie> I'm thinking it turns the > into > first, and then parses and locates links afterward, with a regex.
11:57:47 <fizzie> And "http://...blah>" looks quite linky.
11:58:27 <ais523_> the -v mangle is /technically/ my fault
11:58:34 <ais523_> the POD format spec says that you can't mix =item types in a single list
11:58:44 <ais523_> and -2 is free text, 0's a bullet, and 1's a number
11:59:12 <ais523_> I should have written Z<>0 to stop that being a bullet, but apparently pod2html treats that as a bullet anyway
12:00:21 <ais523_> (Z<>'s is pod's arbitrary no-op you use to work around parsing ambiguities)
12:01:26 <ais523_> I do like pod as a markup format, but it has some really nasty corner cases
12:01:43 <fizzie> The conflation of the C++ term "Plain Old Data" and the Perl term "Plain Old Documentation" is distracting.
12:02:59 <ais523_> I guess you could move to POC++O for C++
12:03:37 <Gregor> But pod != plain-old-object
12:03:46 <Gregor> In fact, plain-old-data is almost exactly NOT an object.
12:19:39 <ais523_> "Never send chain letters via electronic mail. Chain letters are forbidden on the Internet. Your network privileges will be revoked."
12:20:49 <ais523_> actually, even better: ":-) is an example of a smiley (Look sideways)."
12:22:04 <ais523_> Oh bleh, apparently we're supposed to capitalize and punctuate correctly on IRC too.
12:22:33 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
12:22:50 <ais523_> that seems to be for when you're sending messages directly onto someone else's tty using write(1)
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12:26:06 <ais523_> hmm... this is describing Gopher as new
12:26:32 <oerjan> ais523_: btw the -v list at http://nethack4.org/projects/aimake/documentation.html looks like it should have had numbered rather than bulleted points
12:26:50 <ais523_> oerjan: it should be a definition list, and it does start as one
12:26:56 <ais523_> what happens beyond there is a bug in pod2html
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12:27:09 <ais523_> which I've worked around locally by writing the items as -v-2, -v-1, etc.
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12:27:56 <ais523_> aha, I've found the IRC guidelines here
12:27:58 <oerjan> oops fizzie already mentioned it :)
12:28:20 <ais523_> and it seems that people pasting into IRC channels was a problem even in 1995
12:28:26 <ais523_> probably more of one, because pastebins didn't exist back then
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12:39:01 <Roujo> 'morning, everyone
12:40:14 <Taneb> The IRC guidelines?
12:40:20 <ais523_> the netiquette guide I was quoting from is http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
12:40:32 <ais523_> it's an RFC, so it's all official and that
12:45:13 <fizzie> Yay for Funet FileSender, 2.6 gigs of stuffs fetched in a hundred seconds.
12:45:31 <fizzie> Speaking of RFCs, I'm still waiting for those style files for fungot. :p
12:45:53 <fizzie> And speaking of fungot...
12:46:40 <fizzie> pratchett.freenode.net is being a slow.
12:46:58 <fizzie> "NOTICE * :*** Got Ident response" and then not a thing.
12:47:20 <fizzie> Maybe it was some sort of timeouting open-proxy-check, who knows.
12:47:35 -!- fungot has joined.
12:47:39 <oerjan> it detected the ident as a known fugitive and is now telling Interpol.
12:47:51 <oerjan> fungot: what did you dooooooo?
12:47:52 <fungot> oerjan: esoteric means not somewhat usable? ( preferrably one that does not have a philly accent!
12:48:17 <oerjan> fungot: hey don't you start agreeing with ais523_
12:48:17 <fungot> oerjan: i have a " format" function, how do you duplicate?
12:48:44 <ais523_> why can't fungot agree with me? :-(
12:48:44 <fungot> ais523_: i have no idea. i can write other of them
12:49:07 <ais523_> (also RFC 1855 puts the nose in smileys, therefore I now consider this to be official)
12:49:19 <oerjan> ais523_: because then he'll be leaving the channel most of the time! oh wait he's already started!
12:49:35 <fizzie> Smileys with noses feel all quaint.
12:51:40 <fizzie> Is ":5" like "drooling from the side of the mouth"?
12:52:05 <oerjan> either that or some serious underbite
12:52:37 <quintopia> huh that 2 makes a good gaunt nose
12:57:14 <quintopia> is there anything new and interesting in esotericland?
12:58:02 <ais523_> well it's not new, I just mentioned it
12:58:06 <ais523_> I think it's TC in configuration
12:58:36 <ais523_> it seems to have everything necessary to be TC, although probably you'd hit a filename limit eventually and run out of storage
12:58:45 <ais523_> perhaps it's doable without touching the filesystem at all
13:00:29 <Taneb> quintopia, ais523_'s make replacement that needs much less config
13:00:59 <quintopia> a drop-in replacement? that sounds useful!
13:01:08 <quintopia> but where do i read about such a thing
13:01:16 <Taneb> From what I have heard, almost drop out
13:01:27 <Taneb> http://nethack4.org/projects/aimake/
13:02:37 <ais523_> well, it can arguably be drop-in, in that it can entirely ignore the makefile and work anyway
13:03:27 <quintopia> sounds good to me. will it be possible for it to do installation without config eventually?
13:03:59 <Taneb> quintopia, that future is now
13:04:11 <ais523_> quintopia: actually it can almost do that now
13:04:22 <ais523_> however it sucks at choosing filenames for executables
13:04:25 <ais523_> and yes, that page is outdated
13:04:40 <ais523_> the filename-choosing logic is there, I just haven't hooked it up to the executable installer yet
13:04:59 <quintopia> i see no reason why it would be annoying to specify the filename in the installation command
13:06:09 <ais523_> because I'm used to projects that build multiple executables
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13:08:06 <quintopia> but how do you go about coming up with filenames automagically?
13:09:03 <ais523_> grep for "namehint" in the config file
13:09:16 <ais523_> basically it works out which files have the largest weight in naming the executable
13:09:24 <ais523_> then takes the common prefix (both filename and directory name)
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13:12:13 <ais523_> well it tries to distinguish files that probably contain relevant code, from files that are probably libraries
13:12:29 <ais523_> the heuristic is that a file probably contains relevant code if it contains a main() function or any initialized read-write data
13:15:21 <quintopia> and namehints are created automagically also?
13:16:20 <ais523_> nothing's created automagically, except sys:, config_rule: and config_option: objects
13:16:30 <ais523_> you can read how they're created in the config file (at the end of the aimake script itself)
13:17:20 <quintopia> so namehints are user provided in the source files? i so confuse
13:18:19 <ais523_> quintopia: no, they're created by aimake's config file
13:18:23 <ais523_> like everything else in aimake
13:18:32 <ais523_> it's basically a rule engine + a set of rules
13:18:48 <ais523_> and the reason it's architected like that is that it makes it much easier to test
13:19:23 <ais523_> if everything's treated the same way, it's much less likely to make it accidentally non-idempotent or accidentally fail to track dependencies correctly or something like that
13:20:16 <quintopia> so they are created by aimake, but not automatically...
13:20:35 <boily> oerjan: about underload's monoidalitude, I'll have to believe you at face value for now.
13:21:12 <ais523_> underload's obviously a monoid
13:21:22 <ais523_> with concatenation being the operation, and the null string the unit
13:22:23 <Gregor> Oh, everything's a monoid to moneyes.
13:22:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:23:05 <Gregor> Also, http://bitbucket.org/GregorR/exc . *runs*
13:23:10 <ais523_> actually I think all concatenative languages are monoids by definition
13:23:12 <oerjan> although brainfuck is a monoid in essentially the same way
13:23:22 <quintopia> Gregor: what is everything to soreyes?
13:23:51 <ais523_> BF is technically concatenative too, isn't it?
13:23:58 <Taneb> Gregor, aren't those dinosaurs?
13:24:01 <ais523_> just not in an interesting way
13:24:55 <oerjan> brainfuck behaves too erratically on pre-initialized tape
13:25:11 <oerjan> although there isn't anything stopping you from clearing cells first
13:26:31 <quintopia> i learned today that t-rex lived closer in time to the present day than to the time when stegosaurus lived
13:26:32 <ais523_> yep, it's better than Snowflake in that respect
13:26:51 <ais523_> where by definition, given a suitably initialized stack, any program can do anything whatsoever
13:27:12 <ais523_> hmm... I think it's interesting to draw a distinction between reversible languages, and rereversible languages
13:27:26 <ais523_> in a reversible language, given a program and an eventual state, you can construct the initial state of the program
13:27:40 <ais523_> in a rereversible language, given a program, there is another program in the same language that undoes its effects
13:27:47 <ais523_> which is a stronger requirement
13:28:30 <quintopia> so rereversible languages might form a group. like burro. or rather, my improvement to burro.
13:29:00 <oerjan> ais523_: that's like the difference between bijection and isomorphism
13:29:29 <ais523_> quintopia: yeah, the original burro didn't form a group because it was reversible but not rereversible
13:29:32 <Taneb> quintopia, I think that any rereversible language forms a group possibly without associativity so not a group at all
13:29:48 <oerjan> or possibly between injection and monomorphism
13:30:34 <oerjan> monomorphism is the same
13:31:01 <oerjan> it's the difference between injection/monomorphism and left invertible
13:32:28 <ais523_> Snowflake has possibly the strongest reversibility I've seen in an esolang (within a single cycle): for each command, there is a specific other command that's both a left and right inverse of it
13:33:20 <ais523_> (from this, it's immediately impossible to conclude that Snowflake has no infinite loops within a single cycle)
13:33:28 <ais523_> oerjan: well it only has finitely many commands
13:33:48 <ais523_> unlike, say, Burro, where the inverse of a single command can IIRC be multiple commands
13:34:26 <ais523_> I don't really remember either
13:34:46 <quintopia> ais523_: did you ever read my suggested improvements to make it form a proper group?
13:35:18 <ais523_> quintopia: I don't think so, and can't find them on the wiki article or talk page
13:35:44 <oerjan> i recall discussing making a language with all basic commands _self_-inverse.
13:36:04 <ais523_> yeah, I recall that being discussed too
13:36:14 <ais523_> Snowflake needed to be reasonably easy to program in, though
13:36:21 <quintopia> ais523_: that's because i posted them on the xkcd fora instead
13:36:24 <oerjan> of course this property is not preserved for composite commands
13:36:26 <quintopia> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14986
13:36:44 <ais523_> or at least, I didn't mind making arbitrary changes to make it harder, but I wanted it to be reasonable to write a working program
13:38:06 <ais523_> hmm... it's interesting how close cpressey's fixed conditional in Burro ended up to FORK/SPOON in Snowflake
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13:48:51 <ais523_> yay, I only scored 10 that time
13:48:56 <ais523_> also, onoz is pretty interesting as BF derivatives go
13:58:17 <Roujo> Life, presumably. Out of 10. Success.
13:58:56 <quintopia> when you assume, you give an ass to Uma Thurman
14:00:10 <ais523_> quintopia: the BF derivative dodging game
14:00:20 <ais523_> basically you keep clicking on random page on Esolang
14:00:30 <ais523_> and count how many BF derivs youu find before you find a language you created
14:02:15 <boily> could we, like, y'know, like, delete and remove and obliterate and shred to pieces so small you start doing atomic fission the brainfuck derivatives?
14:02:23 <Taneb> ais523_, does Most ever Brainfuckiest Fuck you Brain fucker Fuck count?
14:02:46 <Roujo> <quintopia> when you assume, you give an ass to Uma Thurman
14:03:43 <Taneb> How about I hate your bf-derivative I really do?
14:04:32 <ais523_> I forget what that language is
14:04:40 <ais523_> the counts are only going to be approximate anyway, though
14:04:49 <ais523_> due to judgement calls or clicking too fast
14:04:53 <Taneb> Aaargh, thought I had scored 3 but it was Fugue rather than Fueue
14:06:34 <ais523_> that sort of thing happens all the time to me
14:07:35 <boily> I got confused. some languages had a BFDish name, but the language itself was not quite BFDian enough...
14:08:11 <Taneb> I've ended up at the page for me
14:09:11 <Roujo> What game is this? =P
14:09:18 <ais523_> the BF derivative dodging game
14:09:25 <ais523_> [15:00] <ais523_> basically you keep clicking on random page on Esolang [15:00] <ais523_> and count how many BF derivs youu find before you find a language you created
14:09:42 <ais523_> AFAICT, if you want to do /really/ well, you have to be either cpressey or zzo38
14:09:51 <ais523_> although I hit Taneb before I hit me, usually
14:09:59 <Roujo> So... Infinite score for me? =P
14:10:02 <ais523_> so Taneb's likely to see the opposite results ;)
14:10:17 <ais523_> Roujo: if you have no non-BF-derivative languages, you have to write one so as to not be stuck clicking forever
14:10:31 <Taneb> Yeah, just hit ais523
14:10:38 <Roujo> I have no language, period =P
14:10:56 <Roujo> I guess I know what I have to do now!
14:10:59 <Taneb> Just hit Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
14:11:43 <quintopia> maybe we should change the game to be "until you land on your own language or one of cpressey's or Zzo38's"
14:12:50 <Roujo> Maybe put in bonus points if it's your own language
14:13:08 <Roujo> Well, deduce some points from your total, really
14:13:13 <Gregor> I'm up to 7 and still haven't hit me >: (
14:13:17 <Roujo> Since it seems the goal is the get a low score?
14:13:24 <quintopia> although the word you want is deduct
14:13:36 <boily> Massive Multiplayer Online Esoteric Brainfuck Derivative Dodge!
14:14:23 <Roujo> quintopia: Nah, I want to use logical axioms to find out what my score is >_>
14:15:01 <ais523_> Roujo: I thought that last sentence was a language idea
14:15:11 <ais523_> until the second time I read it
14:17:47 <ais523_> Gregor: I've scored like 30 before now
14:18:02 <Gregor> Yes, but I'm at work ;)
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14:20:01 <Taneb> Wow, just actually scored 3
14:20:30 <boily> how many samples would one need to get a statistically safe average that could be published on the user's page?
14:20:32 <quintopia> this game could be scripted, if the brainfuck derivative category were accurate and up-to-date
14:21:56 <ais523_> you wouldn't really need to sample it, you could just calculate
14:22:15 <ais523_> except that MediaWiki's random page command isn't uniformly weighted
14:22:37 <ais523_> basically it assigns a random float between 0 and 1 to each page, then the random page button generates a random float and looks for the next higher float that belongs to a page
14:22:53 <Gregor> Actually, the calculation is simple enough that you don't even need a program. Number of pages in the BF-derivs category divided by number of languages you've made.
14:23:27 <boily> oh. right. but I still like my overengineered solution :D
14:23:30 <Taneb> ais523_, doesn't that wind up as roughly uniform weighted for a sufficiently large number of pages?
14:23:45 <ais523_> Taneb: yeah, but some pages will be more heavily weighted than others
14:23:50 <Gregor> Or rather, bfderivs/(bfderivs+yourlangs)
14:24:14 <Gregor> Nowait... oh well, I'm not sure precisely the math apparently X-D
14:24:45 <boily> do we count your own BFDes differently than other people's BFDes? do you count them at all?
14:25:07 <boily> (own languages) / (1 + own BFD)?
14:25:13 <Gregor> I think the rule is that if you've made BF-derivs, you don't deserve to play the game.
14:25:27 <ais523_> if you hit your own BF deriv, you have to keep going
14:25:51 <Roujo> What if you invented BF?
14:26:57 <Roujo> That makes sense, yeah
14:27:12 <quintopia> ais523_: is there a tool that explores the gaps between page's assigned floats to figure out which page is most heavily weighted?
14:27:14 <Taneb> If I hypothetically uploaded the Ook! derivative I wrote when I was 12, would that count?
14:27:30 <ais523_> quintopia: not as far as I know
14:27:45 <ais523_> Taneb: I still count BF derivative derivatives as BF derivatives
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14:28:10 <Taneb> I think I lost the specs for my Ook! derivative
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14:30:08 <Jafet> BF', a BF derivative
14:30:48 <Roujo> We had a similar conversation in another channel
14:32:00 <Roujo> We were thinking of starting a cover band for a K-Pop group called f(x), just so that we could call ourselves df(x)/dx or f'(x)
14:33:00 <Taneb> Roujo, I haven't had much exposure to K-pop, I find the various groups very difficult to differentiate
14:33:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, publish it, so i can write a tumblr entry decrying this crime against the perfect language
14:33:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I think it's been completely lost now
14:33:48 <Taneb> THIS WAS A THIRD OF MY LIFE AGO
14:34:00 <Taneb> I'VE STARTED AND FINISHED HIGH SCHOOL SINCE I LAST READ IT
14:34:19 <Taneb> Actually, I can vaguely remember what it was like
14:34:27 <Phantom_Hoover> wow i found something dumber than a brainfuck derivative
14:36:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: there's a version in a more usual encoding at http://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%99%A6/~
14:37:27 <Roujo> Taned: To be honest, I can't really tell either - except for that one band that I like a lot. =P
14:37:31 <ais523_> and seriously, there are languages there that are worse than even the worst bf deriv
14:38:02 <Roujo> ais523_, Phantom_Hoover: Like what? =P
14:38:51 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: I was going to say Snack, but someone added it to Shameful while I wasn't paying attention
14:39:21 <boily> I seem to miss whatever is U+1A85...
14:39:46 <Roujo> "Esme is an esoteric programming language[citation needed] created by User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God as a lol."
14:40:21 <ais523_> Shameful (which officialy does not exist) is reserved for only the very worst languages
14:40:42 <ais523_> also read the talk page for Esme
14:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how there's a command in the reference interpreter which isn't in the spec
14:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i also like how i'm p. sure the reference interpreter shouldn't work at all
14:42:49 <Roujo> Wow. Okay, so the bar for my first esolang is pretty low, I guess. =P
14:43:07 <Roujo> "You have eaten as a snack right 2 people."
14:43:09 <boily> I think poison is the complete worst.
14:43:10 <ais523_> Roujo: to be fair, it requires a sort of perverse genius to create a language quite that bad
14:44:31 <Roujo> ais523_: It doesn't even do anything! It doesn't even have a POOP function!
14:44:48 <ais523_> Roujo: I am not debating that that language is bad
14:44:58 <ais523_> there is no point in arguing that that language is bad because everyone will agree with you
14:45:12 <Roujo> I know, I was kidding =P
14:45:14 <boily> I disagree about automatically agreeing.
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14:58:18 <boily> `relcome audioPhil
14:58:21 <HackEgo> audioPhil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:02:08 <HackEgo> audioPhil: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:02:10 <Gregor> There are also non-ridiculous versions.
15:02:54 <Roujo> `bienvenue audioPhil
15:02:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
15:03:12 <HackEgo> ` \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ e \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ fortune \ freedom \ frink \ fsck \ fu
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15:08:19 <ais523_> it seems like half the activity of this channel is creating new, ridiculous sorts of welcome sometimes
15:08:27 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .egaP_niaM/ikiw/gro.sgnalose//:ptth :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW :83ozz
15:08:47 <ais523_> `relcome is one of the more popular ones, though
15:08:51 <HackEgo> is: one: of: the: more: popular: ones,: though: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
15:08:58 <Roujo> ais523_: Don't forget the part where I cat stuff for no good reason
15:09:04 <Roujo> `run cat cat | cat
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15:14:06 <Roujo> And thus the cuttle died
15:27:43 <Bike> @tell boily http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/scicurious-brain/2013/09/16/ignobels-2013-who-ate-the-dead-shrew-for-science/
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16:00:58 <boily> Bike: I deny the parboiled shrew.
16:07:31 <Gregor> Roujo: Actually, there can be a purpose to | cat.
16:14:13 <Gracenotes> there are things which like paging themselves unnecessarily
16:19:24 <Roujo> Gregor: Well yeah. I just don't really do it for a good reason, that's all
16:20:40 <Gregor> Gracenotes: Hahaha, 'struth.
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16:25:18 <Koen__> I can see use for | cat -e
16:26:00 <fizzie> But "cat -e" is an abomination, is it not?
16:26:21 <fizzie> (Not to mention oh so POSIX-incompliant.)
16:27:28 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
16:28:40 <Gregor> Oh gawd, cat -e is Satan incarnate.
16:29:04 <fizzie> Gregor: What do you think of cat -n then?-)
16:29:38 <Gregor> Even the solitary option that POSIX specifies (-u) is ridiculous.
16:30:21 <Koen__> `run man cat | grep '-e'
16:30:23 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config \ grep: option requires an argument -- 'e' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try `grep --help' for more information.
16:30:28 <Gregor> cat --system echo hi # equivalent to echo hi | cat
16:32:34 <nooodl> <boily> henooodllo. <-- good stealth greeting i didn't notice
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16:33:55 <S1> Did anyone ever try to implement QuickSort in Brainfuck?
16:34:08 <S1> Cause that is what I am trying to do.
16:35:03 <Koen__> I'l bet you anything that several ones did
16:35:23 <S1> I just need to find them. That's why I'm asking
16:35:40 <S1> Well I don't NEED to. Would be just fine.
16:35:44 <Koen__> on the other hand, every one here knows brainfuck and everyone here knows quicksort
16:35:53 <Koen__> what can we do you for?
16:36:30 <S1> Nothing. I was just asking ^^ But you can look at my program so far if you want.
16:36:38 <fizzie> There's a StackExchange challenge for it, with one accepted answer.
16:36:57 <fizzie> (It's eminently findable with the search terms of "brainfuck quicksort".)
16:37:34 <Koen__> I think the hard part is if you're sorting an array in-place you need to remember the begin and end indexes of every sub-array you're "recursively" sorting
16:38:38 <Bike> can i just code it in c and use the c to bf compiler
16:38:41 <HackEgo> S1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:38:56 <S1> Nah that'd be cheatin
16:39:49 <S1> I split the array in two, then recursively run the programm on each of the new two arrays.
16:40:01 <Koen__> I think someone had a nice environment wwhere you could name variables and stuff
16:40:17 <Koen__> and then it replaces with the appropriate amount of > and <
16:40:17 <S1> I split it by moving the right part a few cells, so that there is some space in between.
16:40:25 <S1> NO CHEATING!
16:40:28 <Bike> http://31.media.tumblr.com/c33227832138905c415ff573eae65a91/tumblr_msv9kcrYxt1sgh0voo1_500.png beware.
16:40:30 <Koen__> https://github.com/pikhq/pebble
16:40:58 <Bike> if i write the compiler myself can it be not cheating
16:41:50 <S1> You mean you want to write a c to bf compiler in bf? Well if you can do that without using one from the internet and without writing the c to bf compiler in c and then compiling it to bf it's ok.
16:41:54 <Koen__> would it be cheating to build a boat to enter a swimming contest?
16:42:20 <Roujo> Koen__: Depends if you're swimming in BF-derivates, I'd guess
16:42:25 <Koen__> Bike: I think it's ok for you to write your own compiler yourself... but you're not allowed to compile it using another compiler
16:42:30 <Bike> what i if i write a c to bf compiler in c and use it to compile itself into bf
16:42:46 <Koen__> pretty sure that wouldn't work
16:42:49 <S1> Come on I think I made myself clear :D NO COMPILERS
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16:42:56 <Bike> these requirements seem rather arbitrary!
16:43:15 <Bike> truly, can we not say that i myself am a compiler of a description of an algorithm into brainfuck
16:43:39 <Koen__> if that were true we'd have to kill you
16:44:03 <S1> No because you don't translate one thing to another but think about HOW to implement it in bf
16:44:23 <S1> For the case: Human compilers allowed -_-
16:44:37 <Koen__> doesn't "implementing program A in language B" mean compiling?
16:44:43 <Bike> "if you meet a compiler on the road, pkill it" -- lin chi
16:44:46 <S1> I dont think so
16:45:48 <Koen__> hey is there a simple "move n cells to the right" algorithm in brainfuck? where n is the content of the current cell (and you don't want to destroy it)
16:47:21 <Phantom_Hoover> by moving the tape you lose all information on the content of n, essentially
16:47:21 <S1> can there be blank cells between the cells that are to be moved or am I allowed to create it?
16:48:04 <Koen__> so maybe it would be a good idea to use every other cell for the array, and every other cell to store intermediate stuff to move along the array
16:48:06 <Bike> nothing on http://esolangs.org/wiki/brainfuck_algorithms
16:48:07 <S1> I think I don't get the problem exactly. Please write an example. A state before the program and a state after it.
16:48:33 <Phantom_Hoover> in brainfuck you can only move information a bit at a time, i guess
16:48:55 <Phantom_Hoover> and that bit has to correspond to whether or not some cell is zeroed
16:49:31 <Bike> you could probably write something to turn n{n{0}} into 0{n{1}} [totally appropriate use of verilog syntax
16:50:06 <Koen__> you know I'm very uncomfortable with unmatched brackets
16:52:33 <Roujo> ...that looks so wrongm
16:52:53 <Koen__> I'm not sure if that's what your verilog syntax meant but you could turn (n)(x)(0) into (0)(x)(n-1) if every other cell is a tmp cell
16:53:27 <Koen__> and thus you've moved two cells right and the content of the current cell has been decreased; repeat until it's 0 and you're there
16:53:46 <Koen__> Phantom_Hoover: when I write the whole brainfuck program, I've got AN INFINITY of tmp cells
16:55:03 <Koen__> but that's horribly slow
16:55:24 <Koen__> you need n^2 operations to move n cells
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16:55:52 <Koen__> you know what screw brainfuck, I'm gonna write a sorting algorithm in thue
16:56:26 <Koen__> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue
16:58:35 <myname> Koen__: i'm fascinated about subleq right now
16:59:48 <Koen__> subtract and lsomething if equal
17:00:03 <Koen__> subtract and branch if less than or equal to?
17:00:35 <myname> basically, everything is a pointer
17:01:08 <myname> it's one instruction set computing
17:05:02 -!- Bike has joined.
17:05:16 <boily> huh? my bot is dead???
17:05:27 -!- metasepia has joined.
17:05:35 <metasepia> Your divination: "Small Accumulating" to "Attending"
17:06:07 * boily pats his bot “Good bot. Yes you are.”
17:08:36 <metasepia> cheese definition: a food consisting of the coagulated, compressed, and usually ripened curd of milk separated from the whey.
17:09:00 <Roujo> Now that doesn't sound very appetizing >_>
17:09:02 -!- augur has joined.
17:09:28 <metasepia> tendon definition: a tough cord or band of dense white fibrous connective tissue that unites a muscle with some other part (as a bone) and transmits the force which the muscle exerts.
17:09:49 <boily> when tendon sounds yummier than cheese, there's a problem.
17:10:19 <boily> (of course, tendon in phở is good, but that's besides the point.)
17:11:46 <Koen__> I'm kinda disappointed
17:11:59 <Koen__> I've been looking for some thue-like that would accept variables
17:12:16 <Koen__> that is, some kind of pattern-matching
17:12:52 <Bike> variables how?
17:12:56 <Roujo> Why do I feel like we've had this conversation before
17:13:43 <Koen__> well variables may not be the best name
17:13:49 <Koen__> regular expressions maybe
17:13:59 <boily> Roujo: because Koen__ likes variables.
17:14:19 <Koen__> so I've looked up thutu and thubi
17:14:25 <Roujo> With the tendon part as well
17:14:37 <Koen__> the closest thing to what I'm looking for is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Definer
17:15:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
17:16:04 <boily> Roujo: no, we never talked about tendons beforehand.
17:16:19 <boily> Koen__: Definer has a very l-system feel.
17:16:54 <HackEgo> 2013-08-12.txt:18:43:00: <boily> ~duck i-esse-erre j'ai dit!
17:17:05 <Roujo> Pretty sure that didn't work
17:18:46 <metasepia> ASL+ - An algebraic specification language by David Aspinall of the University of Edinburgh.
17:21:20 <Koen__> on the other hand, I think all string-rewriting systems kinda feel alike
17:23:43 <Koen__> boily: in fact l-system looks a lot more like Thue than Definer, in my opinion
17:25:42 * boily strokes his sandpapery beard stubble...
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17:35:13 <Roujo> boily: Quite, quite
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17:41:41 <AnotherTest> ais523: would you say that, the ultimate purpose of a Snowflake program is to essentially produce an interpreter that does all of the work?
17:42:21 <AnotherTest> Well, I think it's an interesting language
17:42:28 <AnotherTest> although I don't fully understand the threads
17:42:36 <ais523> it took me a while to understand them too
17:43:01 <ais523> basically the idea is that fork splits every thread, spoon joins the split bunches, a thread can split into 0 threads but those 0 threads can still be split and joined
17:43:27 <AnotherTest> do threads run in parallel as well or is that not a requirement?
17:43:27 <ais523> but some entity (the shabby/decrepit threads) has to be added to track when that happens
17:43:39 <ais523> it's unobservable whether they run in parallel or in order
17:43:44 <ais523> but the spec assumes they run in parallel
17:44:40 <AnotherTest> well, what I specifically do not understand in the different types of threads (shabby, tarnished, shiny and deprecated)
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17:46:29 <AnotherTest> so, as far as I understand, you start with a single thread (which appearantly needs to have a parent as well, so you actually start with an infinite amount of threads?)
17:46:48 <AnotherTest> then that thread can be split by a fork command
17:46:56 <Roujo> As I recall, it's threads all the way up =P
17:47:30 * boily lobs a mine-turtle over at Roujo
17:47:38 <AnotherTest> I just don't really see what's up with all the different types of threads
17:48:40 <ais523> OK, say I have a thread and I split it into two threads
17:48:51 <ais523> then I split one of those threads into 3, and the other into 0
17:48:55 <ais523> then I split each of those 3 into 2
17:49:06 <ais523> the group of 0 threads has to also split into 0, again
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17:49:14 <ais523> then I can undo those splits and should end up with the original organization
17:49:22 <ais523> it's quite hard to track anything about a group of 0 threads
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17:49:31 <ais523> so I use a group of 1, with a different adjective, instead
17:51:33 <ais523> AnotherTest: basically you just add a shabby thread
17:51:36 <ais523> which represents the group of 0
17:51:52 <ais523> and it's pretty useful, you can use it to do conditionals
17:51:52 <Roujo> "Is adding 0 to a number the same as not doing anything at all?" ~ Mao
17:51:59 <Bike> i must say i think of shabbiness as a property of ropes, not threads
17:52:02 <ais523> Bike: can't halt in a rereversible language
17:52:25 <Bike> is that different from reversibility
17:52:46 <ais523> Bike: it's different in that in a reversible language, the steps to reverse it don't have to exist within the language itself
17:54:15 <AnotherTest> ais523: so what's the type of a non-zero thread? Do those have a type at all. Or is it not the sero thread that this given this type?
17:54:36 <ais523> basically, running threads are shiny
17:55:10 <Bike> "There is no facility for entering comments, due for the tendency for documentation to get out of date quickly" i must say you do some crazy stuff
17:55:11 <ais523> threads that running threads split from (and that running threads will eventually join into) are tarnished
17:55:11 <ais523> groups of 0 that would be currently running if they had any threads are shabby
17:55:11 <ais523> and groups of 0 that more groups of 0 have been split from are decrepit
17:57:21 <quintopia> i see this is a snowflake discussion
17:57:53 <ais523> AnotherTest: you start with a shiny thread
17:57:57 <ais523> with infinitely many tarnished parents
17:58:25 <AnotherTest> Ok, I get that so far. I still don't get the decrepit and shappy threads though :(
17:58:51 <ais523> basically say I try to run FORK, with an empty list at TOS
17:58:51 <Roujo> Split a shiny thread to 0 children -> 1 Shabby thread
17:59:03 <ais523> yeah, it splits into 0 children, which has to be tracked somehow
17:59:06 <Roujo> Split a tarnished thread to 0 children -> 1 Decrept thread
17:59:16 <ais523> so we create a shabby thread that basically just sits there and stops its parent running
17:59:31 <AnotherTest> what happens when you split a decrept thread though
17:59:36 <Roujo> `addquote <ais523> until you SPOON
17:59:40 <boily> quintopia: AAAAAAAAAAURGH! need to mail the biscuits!
17:59:40 <HackEgo> 1106) <ais523> until you SPOON
17:59:50 <ais523> AnotherTest: they don't split
17:59:52 <ais523> because they aren't running
17:59:57 <ais523> only the shiny and shabby threads split
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18:00:29 <quintopia> it's okay, i haven't gone to gorham yet. i'm probably a week away still
18:01:30 <boily> besides, I think that's the closest I can get to mailing something to a *ham.
18:02:02 <Roujo> boily: What if you mailed a ham to somewhere strange?
18:02:53 <boily> uhm. considering my mail karma, I don't think it's a good idea.
18:02:59 <Gregor> What if elliott mailed SIX hams to somewhere stranger.
18:03:13 <Roujo> Gregor: That's overkill and you know it D:
18:03:15 * boily still remembers that time where we tried to mail yak cheese from China...
18:03:35 <Roujo> "Express? Nahh, it's already rotten milk, how bad can it get?"
18:05:09 <Gregor> boily: No soap, radio!
18:05:23 * Roujo laughs, everybody laughs, nobody knows why
18:05:42 <quintopia> not cool, not funny, not a good joke
18:05:43 <ais523> Roujo: the problem is that the punchline is starting to become legitimately funny in random contexts through association
18:05:51 <ais523> which completely destroys its original purpose
18:06:03 <boily> which by itself is becoming an antiantijoke.
18:06:09 <Roujo> So... Soap, no radio?
18:07:12 <ion> (Soap -> Void) -> Radio
18:08:01 <ais523> Void is Haskell's name for the uninhabited type, right?
18:08:15 <boily> ais523: the duck agrees.
18:08:40 <Roujo> `unicode WHITE SQUARE
18:08:55 <ais523> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
18:09:05 <Roujo> Crap, the square isn't the same!
18:09:36 <Roujo> `unicode WHITE MEDIUM SMALL SQUARE
18:09:52 <boily> heh? `unicode is a new command?
18:09:59 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'yes'"
18:10:02 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8")
18:10:11 <ais523> OK, yet another reason Python's whitespace thing sucks
18:10:11 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'a'"
18:10:32 <boily> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A
18:10:39 <ais523> I saw a post on a forum a while back which was meant to be Python but the whitespace was destroyed by the forum software…
18:10:48 <ais523> Roujo: do you use dead keys on your keyboard?
18:10:50 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GREEK SMALL LETTER X'"
18:10:54 <ais523> you probably have to type ` space unicode
18:11:06 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'GREEK ZETA'"
18:11:07 <ais523> `unicode GREEK SMALL LETTER CHI
18:11:37 <Roujo> ais523: Yeah, that's what I'm supposed to do
18:11:49 <Roujo> I just forget it often, since I don't need to do it to `run stuff
18:12:06 <AnotherTest> I should map all of my keys + Alt Gr to greek equivalents
18:12:10 <ais523> it seems there's an ŕ, but you need to use combining characters to backquote an r
18:12:14 <Roujo> But then again, that's by design, probably =P
18:12:23 <Roujo> What's a dead key? =P
18:12:44 <ais523> Roujo: key with an accent that you press in order to accent the next letter you type
18:12:46 <boily> Roujo: si t'es sur le layout canadien français, c'est les touches qui font un accent, puis que t'appuies sur une autre touche après.
18:14:20 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HEBREW SMALL LETTER ALEPH'"
18:14:29 <Roujo> ais523, boily: Yeah, I have dead keys then
18:14:38 <Roujo> They just don't work on consonants =P
18:15:00 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HEBREW ALEPH'"
18:15:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'HEBREW LETTER ALEPH'"
18:15:25 <quintopia> why can't hackego like grep around for the closest thing that matches...
18:15:35 <Roujo> `unicode CANADIAN SYLLABICS OY
18:16:03 <Roujo> `unicode UNMARRIED PARTNERSHIP SYMBOL
18:16:06 <Gregor> quintopia: As you know full well, HackEgo can do only what you tell it to.
18:16:19 <Roujo> `unicode COMBINING ENCLOSING UPWARD POINTING TRIANGLE
18:16:23 <quintopia> and sometimes it can't even do that
18:16:29 <HackEgo> df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory \ Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on \ - 23G 22G 28M 100% /hackenv
18:16:50 <ais523> what's taking up all that space anyway?
18:16:58 <HackEgo> 0/sys/fs/ext4/features \ 0/sys/fs/ext4 \ 0/sys/fs/cgroup \ 0/sys/fs \ 0/sys/bus/cpu/devices \ 0/sys/bus/cpu/drivers \ 0/sys/bus/cpu \ 0/sys/bus/clocksource/devices \ 0/sys/bus/clocksource/drivers \ 0/sys/bus/clocksource \ 0/sys/bus/platform/devices \ 0/sys/bus/platform/drivers/uml-blkdev \ 0/sys/bus/platform/drivers/alarmtimer \ 0/sys
18:17:06 <ais523> `run du --si / | sort -n
18:17:15 <ais523> it's probably going to time out :(
18:17:30 <Roujo> `unicode MONGOLIAN FREE VARIATION SELECTOR THREE
18:17:37 <HackEgo> du: cannot read directory `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ du: cannot read directory `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ du: cannot read dir
18:17:46 <ais523> `run du / 2>/dev/null | sort -n
18:18:08 <Gregor> ais523: You won't be able to tell what's taking up the space because you can only see a tiny portion of a chroot.
18:18:10 <ais523> (normally you have to worry about reading /proc or the like, but the HackEgo sandbox means that everything is fine)
18:18:22 <ais523> Gregor: oh, I assumed it meant the /chroot/ was full
18:18:37 <ais523> I assumed the sandbox wouldn't be able to see outside its own filesystem even with df
18:18:43 <Roujo> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
18:18:45 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM '"
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18:19:12 <Gregor> ais523: Naw, df is just mounted fs. The chroot has no quota anyway.
18:19:29 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
18:19:31 <ais523> well then the chroot might /actually/ be full
18:19:35 <ais523> and probably should be quota'd
18:19:56 <Gregor> Naw, there's no point in quotaing the chroot. Quotaing HackEgo, yes.
18:22:36 <Roujo> `run chroot oerjan/
18:22:39 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/chroot: Permission denied
18:22:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quota: not found
18:22:55 <quintopia> what's the sandbox built on these days?
18:23:05 <Roujo> `run chroot oerjan/
18:23:47 <Phantom_Hoover> is there not a command or whatever for telling you the free space left in a filesystem
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18:23:59 <Gregor> quintopia: umlbox, like it has been for quite a long time.
18:24:09 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Uh, yeah, df -h, like I ran two minutes ago.
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18:29:49 <fizzie> `unicode HEBREW LETTER ALEF
18:30:48 <kmc> `unicode ALEF SYMBOL
18:31:14 <ion> `unicode ALF
18:31:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ALF'"
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18:31:57 <Roujo> `unicode '; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS;--
18:32:02 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name ''; DROP TABLE CHARACTERS;--'"
18:32:21 <fizzie> `unicode ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA ISOLATED FORM
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18:32:56 <nooodl> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
18:33:12 <nooodl> `unicode SUNSET OVER BUILDINGS
18:33:14 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'SUNSET OVER BUILDINGS'"
18:33:14 <myname> `unicode RANDOM CAPSLOCKED WORDS
18:33:17 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'RANDOM CAPSLOCKED WORDS'"
18:33:18 <fizzie> `unicode TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE
18:33:19 <boily> `unicode TIBETAN MARK GTER YIG MGO -UM GTER TSHEG MA
18:33:19 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE'"
18:33:34 <Roujo> `unicode UMBRELLA WITH RAINDROPS
18:33:35 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'UMBRELLA WITH RAINDROPS'"
18:33:36 <nooodl> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f307/index.htm um excuse me.
18:33:38 <Roujo> `unicode UMBRELLA WITH RAIN
18:33:40 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'UMBRELLA WITH RAIN'"
18:33:40 <Roujo> `unicode UMBRELLA WITH RAIN DROPS
18:33:43 <fizzie> Hey, now! TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE is U+1F375.
18:34:03 <Roujo> `unicode FIZZIE WITHOUT HANDLE
18:34:05 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'FIZZIE WITHOUT HANDLE'"
18:34:10 <fizzie> `unicode GEAR WITHOUT HUB
18:34:16 <fizzie> `unicode FACE WITHOUT MOUTH
18:34:18 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'FACE WITHOUT MOUTH'"
18:34:23 <fizzie> That, too, should exist.
18:34:31 <boily> nooodl: uhm. why would anyone need that.
18:34:31 <fizzie> (Time to upgrade the Unicode database?)
18:35:13 <AnotherTest> any appropriate ASCII symbol for "xor" that's not ^?
18:35:49 <fizzie> "(+)" if you can go with multiple characters?
18:36:09 <boily> AnotherTest: ⊗ U+2297.
18:36:38 <fizzie> I don't really know about (+), it's kind of silly.
18:37:51 <Roujo> Wait, that's not ASCII
18:38:02 <Roujo> (But still, apparently that's a thing)
18:39:45 <fizzie> Maybe ↑, that's ASCII(-1963). (Except it's really for NAND.)
18:40:07 <Roujo> NAND = XOR for some values, doesn't it?
18:40:10 <Roujo> Close enough for me
18:40:27 <fizzie> For most values, even.
18:40:49 <fizzie> There's always >< too.
18:42:30 <boily> are there any 4+ punctuation symbol operators defined in the currently available Haskell libraries, or have the multiple developers stuck to at most three-character-wide ops?
18:43:19 <boily> something ridiculensous, like ~+^.?
18:44:09 <boily> Haskell is the new perl.
18:44:14 <kmc> haskell is the gnu perl
18:44:16 <mnoqy> this isn't all of them, mind you. just a few
18:44:18 <mnoqy> there's a whole bunch
18:45:15 <boily> oui qu'où sue eux mou y coup ne?
18:45:46 <Roujo> boily: je ne même pas
18:46:12 <boily> Roujo: google translate is no help here. «Grebe manger corégone.»
18:46:46 <Roujo> Corégone is best gone
18:47:10 <fizzie> boily: That seems to have been mostly correct.
18:47:41 <boily> fizzie: the English version has “whitefish” replacing the «corégone», and the verb is correctly conjugated.
18:48:08 <metasepia> A grebe is a member of the Podicipediformes order, a widely distributed order of freshwater diving birds, some of which visit the sea when migrating and in winter.
18:48:13 <fizzie> Well, French-to-English "corégone" says "whitefish", too.
18:48:31 <boily> fizzie: I have a feeling it's a Traditional Old Finnish Proverb in Harmony with Nature or Something Like That.
18:48:39 <fizzie> No, it's just nonsense.
18:49:00 * boily slaps a humid salmon on fizzie
18:49:41 <fizzie> But fi:uikku -> grebe, fi:muikku -> vendace (which, I believe, is a kind of whitefish).
18:49:53 <fizzie> And of course they have that similarity.
18:50:31 <fizzie> And those birds do eat fish. I'm not a 100% on whether they eat that particular kind.
18:51:13 <boily> incidentally, whitefishes are a kind of salmonidæs.
18:51:36 <kmc> lake trout: no lake, no trout
18:52:07 * trout slaps kmc with a large salmon
18:52:19 <Roujo> You might want to get that nose checked, trout
18:53:03 <nooodl> > let (<+?.*<$>?@%?.*<$>) = const in 3 <+?.*<$>?@%?.*<$> 4
18:55:05 <kmc> the fungot am I reading
18:55:06 <fungot> kmc: shouldn't ghc substitute enough things at compile time it gives " fnord" in there, either.
18:56:42 <boily> myname: you didn't see that. your brain is playing tricks on your eyes. fnord. hth.
18:56:50 <fizzie> boily: Oh, incidentally, for ridiculous operators... XMonad.Layout.LayoutCombinators introduces *||*, **||*, ***||*, ****||*, ***||**, ****||***, ***||****, *||****, **||***, *||*** and *||**, plus all those with either //, | or / in place of the ||.
18:57:00 <myname> oh, how i missed that hth here all the time
18:57:22 <fizzie> boily: http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/xmonad-contrib/0.11/doc/html/XMonad-Layout-LayoutCombinators.html
18:57:53 <boily> ascii operator art. well, I'll be damned.
18:57:53 <fizzie> The number of stars gives the ratio in which screen space is divided.
18:58:08 <boily> that is so wrong on so many levels.
18:58:31 <fizzie> (And || vs // is vertical/horizontal, and two-vs-one separator is draggable-or-not.)
18:58:42 <fizzie> (****||***) = combineTwo (dragPane Vertical 0.1 (4/7))
18:58:57 <boily> completely, utterly disgusting and horrendous.
18:59:11 <myname> but what if i want 5/13?
18:59:36 <fizzie> myname: Then you're outta luck, I'm afraid.
18:59:52 <boily> http://thecodelesscode.com/case/109
19:00:01 <myname> maybe i should introduce *****||********
19:01:07 <fizzie> boily: Also the <&&> and <||> in XMonad.ManageHook (part of the core XMonad) do (just barely) fill your "4+ punctuation" requirement.
19:01:37 <fizzie> ((<&&>) = liftM2 (&&), and the same for ||.)
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19:01:59 <boily> maybe I should put the threshold at 4.5 characters, as <&&> and <||> seem reasonable.
19:02:21 <boily> fizzie: ah, I correctly guessed their purpose. the applicative/monadic variant of && and ||.
19:03:07 <fizzie> boily: XMonad.Hooks.ManageHelpers comes with <==?, </=?, -->>, and -?>> too. (I think I've used that last one, which is why I remembered to go look for it.)
19:04:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:04:20 <boily> we have left fat arrow, left weird existential fat arrow, right lean prickly arrow, right questioning prickly arrow, and then we have myname's dangling arrow.
19:05:16 <myname> don't get me wrong, i really like haskell
19:06:44 <metasepia> A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished
19:06:44 <metasepia> from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others.
19:06:44 <metasepia> -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
19:07:17 -!- audioPhil has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.).
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19:12:29 <boily> hm. it's been a long time since I've asked the The Question to anybody. I feel... weird.
19:17:18 <boily> oh well... Roujo, what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
19:17:46 <Roujo> My script just didn't work TT_TT
19:18:20 <Roujo> I'd /nani you, but I've heard that *that* script somehow PMs everyone in the channel
19:19:01 <boily> if your script has that very interesting side-effect, maybe you could have a /hth >:)
19:20:01 <Roujo> [kornbluth.freenode.net][421] Roujo hth :Unknown command
19:20:03 <boily> Roujo: btw, could I get a real body weigh for your entry? I only have "403", without any unit.
19:20:35 <Roujo> 403: Forbidden? =P
19:21:23 * boily prods Roujo with an automated squirrel feeder
19:21:37 -!- conehead has joined.
19:21:42 <Roujo> More or less - it's been a while
19:27:16 <boily> I used a tanebvention with actual results.
19:31:21 -!- Bike has joined.
19:33:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bike: not found
19:33:58 <Roujo> We really should make it so that `run executes a random program if the correct one isn't found
19:35:38 <Bike> that way lies php
19:36:13 <HackEgo> PHP is preferred by 9 out of 10 idiots, and past elliott. Ask your GP today! [Website redacted]
19:36:27 <Bike> elliott: what really
19:36:35 <boily> elliott: do you certify randomizing unknown HackEgo commands will lead to PHP?
19:36:43 -!- audioPhil has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
19:37:16 <elliott> Bike: I started programming with PHP.
19:37:36 <Bike> i wonder if that's worse than starting with qbasic
19:37:37 <ais523> elliott: have you recovered?
19:37:38 <Bike> i'm thining yes
19:37:52 <elliott> qbasic is a pretty good way to start, I think
19:37:53 <boily> I started with GW-BASIC.
19:38:15 <Bike> it was nice how my normal windows system already had qbasic so i didn't have to deal with installing anything.
19:38:24 <ais523> I started with BBC Basic, unless you count pressing random keys in front of a Pascal interpreter when I was a baby
19:38:37 <ais523> compiler+IDE, not interp
19:38:45 <Bike> does windows have any built in ides nowadays?
19:38:50 <Bike> somebody, think of the children.
19:38:54 <Taneb> I started with Visual Basic 2005
19:39:23 <elliott> Bike: does powershell count?
19:39:35 <Bike> eh... i guess.
19:39:40 <Taneb> ais523, I sort of remember pressing random keys on my dad's computer when I was 3 or 4
19:39:46 <Taneb> Don't know what they would have done
19:39:55 <ais523> most likely, not a lot
19:40:05 <Roujo> I started with BASIC on a TRS-80 ^^
19:40:17 <Taneb> I was good at filling screens full of text manually
19:40:24 <Bike> if you want to talk about random keys i was trying to make a Frogger sequel in actionwhatever when i was like eight :p
19:40:38 <Roujo> Copying pages of code from books I got at the library
19:40:40 <Bike> have you ever seen animation of a plane crashing made by a child in ms paint
19:40:42 <Bike> good stuff imo
19:40:43 <Roujo> Somehow, that was fun ^^
19:43:17 <boily> Roujo: I still have mine, somewhere at my parents'.
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19:47:03 <boily> oerjan: tell us about your childhood BASIC experiences.
19:49:14 <oerjan> well, like, my dad is a (now retired) telecom engineer, and way back he went on this BASIC course, i think.
19:49:47 <oerjan> so he brought back a BASIC textbook (in swedish)
19:50:04 <oerjan> which means that i actually learned basic before i ever used a computer.
19:50:56 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i even wrote a complex number calculator of sorts. iirc still without a computer.
19:51:09 <oerjan> i'm a bit unclear about that part.
19:53:07 <oerjan> at one point my dad brought home a printer with a modem, with which we connected to a computer server of the telecom service. this was my first hands on computer experience, i think. also BASIC.
19:53:29 <oerjan> or well, typewriter with a modem.
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19:54:26 <oerjan> and then i recall seeing an apple (2?) while on holiday visiting some friends of a friend of my mother. i think i made it display a norwegian flag. with BASIC.
19:56:02 <oerjan> a couple years later my dad bought an oric-1 computer, which i still should have in the storage in the basement of this building. also BASIC, which i played with for many years.
19:56:50 <oerjan> terrible interference with the television you connected it to, btw
19:57:44 <boily> you burned a norwegian flag onto some CRTs?
19:58:26 <oerjan> and cassette storage, which i basically never bothered with - i kept typing programs in fresh everytime. including a disassembler. i recall there was an assembly instruction reference in the manual, which was missing pages.
20:00:13 <ais523> oerjan: I was given a tutorial on writing asm for BBC microcomputers
20:00:19 <ais523> like, a big manual thing
20:00:19 <ais523> but not a reference manual
20:00:19 <ais523> it was basically just full of examples
20:00:20 <ais523> and finshed with a 16-bit divide
20:00:24 <ais523> yeah, BBC micro was 6502 too
20:01:46 <oerjan> (there were two cassettes with programs included, of which my cousin managed to destroy one with a magnet. the other was an adventure game named Zodiac, the cassette had a slow loading side and a fast loading side, the latter never worked.
20:03:32 <boily> I remember copying a blackjack game from a manual. I never had to see the colour version of it, since the only TV at my disposition at the time that worked with the TRS was an old black&white ~12" cube.
20:03:41 <oerjan> i assume it might have worked with a better cassette player.
20:06:27 <oerjan> i wrote mandelbrot in it, i recall.
20:08:02 <oerjan> after a while he bought an ibm pc. if it had basic i never found it. got turbo pascal and masm, though.
20:08:05 <ais523> btw, the mandelbrot set looks great with floating point rounding errors
20:08:16 <ais523> because the rounding errors look like little distorted mandelbrot sets of their own
20:09:24 <oerjan> ais523: well the real set also has little distorted mandelbrot sets in it. i even recall some seminary in complex analysis at the university explaining why.
20:09:45 <ais523> yeah but they're not entirely disconnected from it
20:09:49 <ais523> like the rounding errors are
20:10:19 <boily> ~duck little distorted madelbrot
20:10:26 <boily> ~duck little distorted mandelbrot
20:11:15 <oerjan> boily: i am not sure that is the technical term
20:12:35 <boily> ~duck technically correct little distorted mandelbrots
20:13:00 <boily> oerjan: wikipédia mentions a "distorted" in the article, but no explanation why.
20:13:11 <oerjan> ~duck the best kind of correct little distorted mandelbrots
20:14:41 <oerjan> wait, _google_ also has turned into https...
20:15:31 <oerjan> did google change or did IE itself change...
20:16:58 <elliott> google has defaulted to https for a while now, I think
20:17:13 <oerjan> perhaps everyone got so fed up with the NSA stuff they decided to turn all the websites as redirecting http to https
20:17:32 <elliott> http://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/making-search-more-secure.html
20:17:35 <oerjan> elliott: i haven't noticed before.
20:18:04 <elliott> the NSA stuff claims to be able to break SSL under at least some circumstances, I think?
20:18:07 <oerjan> elliott: that's if you're signed in. i don't have an account.
20:18:31 <Bike> break implementations of SSL, anyways
20:18:57 <oerjan> elliott: i just found it a bit weird that google and wikipedia changed at nearly the same time, afaict
20:19:11 <oerjan> (and only noticed because zzo38 commented on the latter)
20:19:25 <elliott> Wikipedia did it specifically because of the NSA, iirc
20:19:31 <Bike> the platonic ideal of ssl, that's still safe!!
20:19:45 <Bike> finally, shachaf is placated.
20:20:51 <Bike> what's the "eh" at
20:21:13 -!- iconmaster has joined.
20:21:49 <boily> Bike: why is shachaf placated?
20:21:51 <oerjan> Bike: he's just being canadian
20:21:52 <boily> `relcome iconmaster
20:21:55 <HackEgo> iconmaster: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:22:09 <Bike> boily: because whenever an http wikipedia link is posted he asks for https
20:22:11 <boily> oerjan: also this. I have a canadian quota to fulfill.
20:23:49 <ais523> hmm… the stereotypes of Canadians are quite similar to the stereotypes of Brits
20:24:26 <Bike> oh, shit, i just noticed "eh" as canadian.
20:25:26 <ais523> hmm… this reminds me of something bizarre I saw at a train station recently
20:25:30 <boily> ais523: Canadians are a mix of Brits, Irishmen and Scotsmen, with Ukrainians and probably just about any other nationality.
20:25:44 <ais523> that I'd have photographed and submitted to TDWTF if I thought of it at the time and owned a camera/cameraphone
20:25:52 <ais523> boily: so are Brits ;)
20:26:17 <boily> (and then we have ass-backwards members of the Provincial Government that put forth a stupid «Charte des Valeurs Québécoises».)
20:26:49 <ais523> basically, it was showing expected arrival times for trains
20:27:08 <ais523> including both 13:50 and 02:40
20:27:23 <ais523> some of those trains were like 12 hours 15 minutes late, predicted
20:27:36 <ais523> I can only assume there was some stupid mishap converting between 12h and 24h clocks
20:27:39 <boily> ais523: oh! mentioning Brits and locations and stuff, and then checking the File to see where you are from, it seems you still aren't in there.
20:27:50 <boily> ais523: so... what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
20:27:58 <ais523> I don't know my body weight
20:28:06 <Taneb> ais523, did you just mix 24 hour and 12 hour notations
20:28:06 <ais523> you can figure out the coordinates from my email address
20:28:12 <ais523> Taneb: no, the train station did
20:28:26 <Taneb> Oh that's much less aaaah
20:28:37 <ais523> I could interpret the 02:40 as 12 hour, but not with the times > 12:59 showing on the same board
20:28:45 <boily> ais523: [ais523] (~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523): (this is obviously not my real name)
20:28:57 <ais523> hmm, theory: the times were 12:50 and 01:40 in the 12 hour clock, UTC
20:29:04 <ais523> then it added 1 hour for daylight savings
20:29:10 <oerjan> boily: psst he's in birmingham, unless he's moved
20:29:29 <ais523> which is stupid, but not as stupid as most of the other possible explanations
20:29:52 <oerjan> it's come up often enough i don't consider it secret.
20:29:56 -!- S1 has joined.
20:30:53 <boily> oerjan: I'll put that as a temporary answer. I'm using advanced devious social techniques to extract his email from the Intarwebs.
20:31:31 <boily> techniques aka sending him an email through the Wiki.
20:31:57 <oerjan> you know that only works if he responds, right?
20:32:25 <boily> I know. I'm waiting for a kind response. it should come soon, no?
20:32:36 <oerjan> boily: alternate method, start playing agora
20:32:36 <Bike> boily just has to craft an email ais can't resist responding to
20:32:41 <ais523> boily: re your email: hi!
20:32:48 <Bike> wow ais is good at this
20:32:56 <Bike> you'll have to be more cleverer
20:33:07 <boily> darn. foiled again!
20:33:50 <Bike> "Dear AIS, I am a general from the deposed Quebec Republic. I need to transfer a few million quedollars out of the country and would like to transfer to you if possible to avoid suspicion. You will of course be paid greatly for this service..."
20:34:05 <oerjan> `run grep -i birmingham wisdom/*
20:34:33 * boily falls to the ground, laughing
20:34:35 <oerjan> our files are mysteriously missing all birmingham information. this can be no coincidence.
20:34:46 <ais523> yeah, that surprised me too
20:34:59 -!- audioPhil has joined.
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20:35:05 -!- audioPhil has joined.
20:35:45 * boily puts on some Agora (http://youtu.be/1l6LE2yCdQ0), wears a +3 nightgown of ais523-seduction, and whispers “Give me your coördinates...”
20:36:28 <oerjan> boily: i think you are misunderstanding. i mean that if you played agora, you'd get to see some actual emails from him.
20:36:41 <ais523> or if you just read the archives
20:36:56 <oerjan> well some forms of the archives hide the email address
20:38:23 <ais523> entirely, or just obfuscate it?
20:38:31 <ais523> they're more likely to hide the ais523 bit than the domain
20:38:50 <Bike> `pastelogs .ac.uk
20:38:55 <kmc> shachaf: in this thread I complain about #haskell in #rust and others respond by saying #rust can't have these problems because everyone is so nice!
20:38:59 <boily> a little grepping and whoising, I have Edgbaston.
20:39:45 <Bike> i wonder if you could hire a sociologist to determine a good way to make people in a dedicated group like #rust not be shits
20:39:46 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.29526
20:39:52 <Bike> important research project possibilities imo
20:40:12 <Bike> well, that didn't work.
20:40:35 <Bike> well, except for all the "ais.*bham" in there i guess.
20:40:44 <Bike> well, well, well, well
20:40:59 <boily> Edgbaston is where the University of Birgmingham is.
20:41:03 <kmc> well people aren't being shits now
20:41:13 <kmc> in fact I don't think the problems of #haskell have manifested yet
20:41:23 <oerjan> ok that whois mention gave me an idea, which unfortunately doesn't work. ais523, the address you gave on the nethack4.org whois gives me grave doubts of your lawful goodness.
20:41:26 <kmc> but I brought them up as part of a conversation there, and now I kind of feel like I need to explain my view
20:41:36 <Bike> but i mean "we're nice" is a classically bad solution to those inevitabilities
20:41:37 <kmc> that you can't solve all community problems by being nice
20:41:43 <kmc> but I also have an axe to grind about #haskell so whatever
20:42:21 <oerjan> i suppose it does say it's obfuscated.
20:42:25 <boily> but #haskell can't be all bad. I mean, the /topic was defined by shachaf!
20:43:10 <kmc> it's tough because I think niceness is really lacking in tech communities and should be encouraged (see: linus torvalds is a dick)
20:43:14 <kmc> but it's not a panacea
20:43:51 <Fiora> kmc: it reminds me of a friend I had who used to hang around the gitp forums, she was explaining how like, the rules basically mandated niceness, so what trolls/jerks would do is try to get other people caught by the rules
20:43:56 <Fiora> while sticking to the letter
20:44:10 <itsy> Hi! Are the codu.org logs broken?
20:44:13 <Bike> Fiora: (guess exactly what happened on tvtropes)
20:44:31 <Fiora> (giant in the playground, apparently)
20:44:34 <kmc> I don't think #rust could avoid the "information only available on IRC" problem, anyway, because Rust is still changing so fast that there is literally no time to write everything down
20:44:36 <ais523> Fiora: actually there was an epic troll on the gitp forums today
20:44:36 <Bike> itsy: try the [text] link instead, i don't know what's up
20:44:47 <metasepia> The Order of the Stick From Left to Right: Belkar, Vaarsuvius, Elan, Haley, Durkon, and Roy.
20:45:10 <ais523> basically exploiting the tl;dr phenomenon to make a lot of people look stupid
20:45:36 <Bike> i actually raised a huge stink there once back when i cared 'cos a guy got banned for insulting someone who'd said something racist in a nice way for the thousandath time
20:45:51 <ais523> http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302960 if anyone's interested
20:46:05 <ais523> read the first sentence, then scroll down to see all the people who didn't
20:46:09 <Bike> to this day, classicists skeeve me right the fuck out.
20:48:10 <Bike> which one is tarqin again? elan's dad?
20:48:47 <ais523> the joke is that he has a bunch of fans in the forum despite being obviously evil
20:49:29 <Bike> gitp is in a universe where "lawful good" is part of physics, you'd think that would discourage that sort of thing
20:50:03 <ais523> basically it's some sort of GitP versus TV Tropes war
20:50:15 <Bike> wow, please don't tell me any more about this.
20:50:44 <ais523> even though I find it hilarious, I'll stop
20:51:10 <Bike> so anyway how about those esolangs
20:51:22 <ais523> Bike: well I did Snowflake
20:51:36 <Bike> oh right i was reading that article before
20:52:51 <Bike> it's... kind of hard to understand
20:52:53 <kmc> GTA V comes out tomorrow
20:53:57 <boily> kmc: Montréal's been plastered with stupid ads recently for that game. mainly boobs.
20:54:21 <Bike> saints row is already parodying it, i guess
20:54:28 <kmc> i think that's been the case for years yeah
20:54:37 <Bike> i mean gta specifically
20:54:42 <kmc> I like boobs, but I might be ambivalent to negative about their use in advertising
20:54:51 <oerjan> it's an ais523 wall of text. i drifted off when it started explaining how the program modifies itself.
20:55:03 <Bike> yeah that was kind of my reaction too >_<
20:55:09 <Bike> hm, which reminds me
20:55:22 <ais523> I'm going to have to write an interp and a program, I guess
20:55:22 <Bike> ais523: is there any chance i could understand checkout if i made a little cpu on moy fpga
20:55:23 <elliott> if you think that's bad try http://esolangs.org/wiki/Checkout :P
20:55:29 <Bike> high five elliott
20:55:39 <ais523> elliott: hey, no fair, I can't keep Checkout straight either
20:55:54 <Bike> so i'm going to take that as a no
20:56:00 <ais523> whereas I have a pretty good intuitive understanding of Snowflake
20:56:32 <ais523> I think it might be clearer as two separate languages
20:56:40 <ais523> one that's just the original language
20:56:46 <ais523> and one that does the self-modification
20:57:01 <ais523> but basically, it's as complex as it is because I wanted the language to actually work
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21:04:07 <Bike> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0550321311002938#aff019 academia is great
21:06:11 <boily> Bike: uhm. the page, it is borken.
21:07:06 <Bike> looks fine to me
21:07:13 <Bike> maybe your browser isn't prepared for this level of authorship
21:07:50 <kmc> is that averyone who worked on the LHC?
21:08:24 <kmc> I wonder if there's a paper about the classification of finite simple groups with a similarly long authors list
21:08:53 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATLAS_experiment sorta
21:09:23 <Bike> wikipedia says the finite simple groups paper only has a hundred authors. boring!
21:12:10 <boily> Bike: http://i.imgur.com/hYxPyaR.png
21:12:32 <Bike> does sciencedirect normall do that for you
21:13:34 <boily> the home page is fine. as soon as I search for something, it borkenifies itself.
21:15:13 <oerjan> maybe try that for screenreaders link?
21:16:44 <HackEgo> ghc: no input files \ Usage: For basic information, try the `--help' option.
21:17:24 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'putStr "Hi!"'
21:18:17 <boily> `run ghc -e 'print [1..]'
21:18:21 <HackEgo> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52,53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72,73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92,93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102,103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112,113,11
21:19:29 <kmc> probably not
21:19:37 <oerjan> `run ghc -e 'let s = show s in s'
21:19:43 <HackEgo> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
21:21:35 <shachaf> i can't make up my mind about being in this channel now
21:23:21 <Bike> i'd like to point out that I, Bike, am here
21:24:53 <shachaf> yes but you're also in #lisp
21:25:04 <Bike> oh snap......................
21:31:18 <shachaf> and you used to be #haskell "not anymore????"
21:31:34 <Bike> i was there for like five minutes
21:31:38 <shachaf> my sister is a big fan of the gitp forums it turns out
21:32:30 <kmc> whenever Bike is not in the room, all of the other characters should be asking "Where's Bike?"
21:32:35 <boily> Bike: seems like #lisp is a nice place. «ARGH ELISP».
21:32:46 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:34:11 <Bike> boily: there is a pretty sad amount of smug vapid complaints about other languages, but i've seen that in every other language channel i've been in too so *shrug*
21:34:45 <shachaf> the really advanced language channels have smug vapid complaints about their own language too
21:35:02 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:35:17 <Bike> i should just join ###biology and part all other channels
21:35:57 <oerjan> > concat $ fix (map (('(':).(++')').concat) . inits)
21:35:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[GHC.Types.Char]'
21:36:46 <Bike> > concat $ fix (map (('(':).(++")").concat).inits)
21:36:46 <lambdabot> "()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()((...
21:37:02 <shachaf> and it even allows people to join it, strangely enough
21:38:46 <Bike> > iterate ('(':).(++")")) ""
21:38:47 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:23: parse error on input `)'
21:39:06 <Bike> well, whatever, then.
21:39:24 <oerjan> that's not the same thing though
21:39:27 <kmc> Bike: your lisp joke is so highbrow
21:39:45 <kmc> or maybe it's oerjan's
21:39:45 <Bike> oh is that what oerjan was doing
21:39:49 <Bike> i just wanted to see if i could fix it, lol
21:40:00 <boily> > concat $ fix (map (('0':).(++"1").concat).inits)
21:40:01 <lambdabot> "01001100100111001001100100111100100110010011100100110010011111001001100100...
21:40:12 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:40:13 <kmc> which sequence is that
21:40:35 <Bike> the boily sequence
21:40:38 <boily> https://twitter.com/Haynes1980/status/291958991704178688
21:42:01 <boily> http://bbs.emath.ac.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=386 ← longer sequence subset, which has exactly 1 hit on google.
21:42:48 <boily> I don't know what “你厉害 0100110010011100100110010011110010011001001,,,” means, but it seems the Chinese people are onto something...
21:44:02 <oerjan> chinese children, even
21:46:05 <boily> anyone who speaks one of the Chinese languages in this fine chännel?
21:46:06 <oerjan> btw if you're wondering it's essentially a list of von neumann numerals
21:46:14 <boily> ~duck von neumann numeral
21:46:30 <oerjan> metasepia: you really should know that
21:46:48 <boily> ~duck von neumann ordinal
21:46:52 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:47:06 <boily> Bike died both from here and #lisp.
21:47:26 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_number#Von_Neumann_definition_of_ordinals
21:47:28 -!- Bike has joined.
21:48:36 <boily> oerjan: can't parse that. the mathematese is too heavy.
21:49:32 <oerjan> boily: 0 = {}, 1 = {0}, 2 = {0,1}, 3 = {0,1,2} , ...
21:50:29 <oerjan> then remove the commas and turn braces into parens
21:50:53 <boily> then it becomes underload programs!
21:51:20 <oerjan> ^ul (())(:~:S:a*~:^):^
21:51:20 <fungot> :~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S:a*~:^:~:S ...too much output!
21:51:33 <fungot> ()()(())()(())(()(()))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(()) ...too much output!
21:53:09 <boily> the people on #lisp seem to have a cheeky markovian bot too. fungot, how do you feel about that?
21:53:44 <fungot> ()()(())()(())(()(()))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(()) ...too much output!
21:54:18 <fungot> (())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(( ...too much output!
21:54:29 <boily> Bike: I see what yeta did there.
21:55:36 <Bike> it's nice to know your bosomed
21:55:39 <Bike> whatever that means
21:55:50 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:55:51 <boily> well... I'm feminine.
21:55:56 <fungot> ()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(())))(()(())(()(()))(()(())(()(()))))(()(()) ...too much output!
21:56:40 <boily> oerjan managed to von neumann the von neumann while he von neumanned in a von neumann.
21:57:49 <oerjan> which proves that von neumann was a smurf.
22:11:15 -!- Yonkie has joined.
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22:16:03 <HackEgo> Yonkie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:18:04 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
22:18:47 <Fiora> oh. I missed the earlier one :/
22:18:58 <Bike> this incident will be reported
22:21:35 <ais523> it has so many ridiculous quotes, and yet people pick that one
22:23:06 <olsner> I was surprised to find that it actually does report those incidents (if you e.g. configure outgoing mail), I got the report once
22:23:51 <ais523> yeah, I've got them too
22:24:03 <ais523> or at least, I found them just sitting in root's mailbox
22:24:16 <ais523> I don't get /why/ it reports them
22:24:26 <monotone> Well, you have to enable insults in order for sudo to give you the interesting messages.
22:24:31 <ais523> given how you could write a wrapper around sudo that makes your experiments go unreported
22:25:07 <olsner> hmm, wouldn't that be a bug in sudo?
22:25:10 <Bike> maybe anybody savvy enough to do that isn't going to fuck up sudo in the first place
22:25:35 <ais523> olsner: well people have found actual security bugs in sudo
22:25:49 <ais523> some way to get %n into a printf string was the most recent, I think
22:26:16 <kmc> how would yo uwrite that wrapper?
22:26:23 -!- SingingBoyo has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
22:27:33 <monotone> sudoers(5): "insults -- If set, sudo will insult users when they enter an incorrect password. This flag is off by default."
22:28:42 <monotone> ais523: I'd think the underlying authentication library would log and report the failure regardless.
22:28:53 <ais523> kmc: sudo -l "$@" && sudo "$@"
22:29:31 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
22:31:04 <ais523> wow, this is mindbogglingly hard to test
22:31:16 <ais523> due to all my non-sudoers accounts not having passwords
22:32:49 <oerjan> you cannot test security because it's too good
22:35:09 <ais523> <randall munroe> I managed to lock up my copy of Mathematica several times on balloon-related differential equations, and subsequently got my IP address banned from Wolfram|Alpha for making too many requests.
22:35:10 -!- augur has joined.
22:35:48 <ais523> I'm going to take this as evidence that Mathematica sucks ;)
22:36:52 <ais523> it's not /just/ my weird similar-but-not-identical-to-turing-machine automata that make its performance start really sucking
22:37:18 <kmc> http://i.imgur.com/wkygDoR.png
22:37:23 <Phantom_Hoover> to be fair it does seem pretty good for multimedia type things
22:38:02 <kmc> this must be those personalized google results I keep hearing about
22:38:10 <Bike> i get the same actually :D
22:38:15 <Bike> on image search, anyway
22:38:18 <ais523> Mathematica is good at things that were considered when writing it
22:38:22 <Bike> maybe you've just corrupted us all
22:38:27 <ais523> it's probably one of the first non-general-purpose programming languages
22:38:43 <ais523> basically it's just a really optimized, large, library
22:38:48 <ais523> containing lots of routines
22:38:49 <Bike> ais523: i've been complaining about matlab elsewhere. am i allowed to feel solidarity with you
22:39:04 <ais523> Bike: oh, matlab sucks in entirely different and unrelate ways
22:39:11 <Bike> way to cheer me up!
22:39:31 <ais523> I had to do a project with it, because that's what the lecturer requested
22:39:49 <ais523> and it was really hard to write the report in a way that covered up the arithmetic errors
22:39:57 <ais523> (which I think were the result of stack smashing or something like that)
22:40:02 <Bike> so far i've learned that the "ones" function, that is described as just returning an array of ones, has over nine different calling conventions, several of which involves literal strings
22:40:06 <ais523> (because it often crashed rather than getting the values wrong)
22:40:52 <mnoqy> i've heard bad things about matlab, like these things you're saying just now.
22:41:02 <boily> GHARGH! WHY MUST YOU BE FAILING ME NOW! all I want is /r/nosleep's top submissions for the past month!
22:41:30 <Bike> (also a hit from the same course: "spnet.cpp - C program to [...]")
22:41:30 <ais523> mnoqy: I've got it to dump Java stack traces to the console
22:41:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i did about one exercise in it; that was enough to convince me that i never wanted to use it again
22:41:41 <Bike> source*, interesting typo
22:45:00 <lambdabot> Ix i => (i, i) -> [e] -> Array i e
22:45:32 <oerjan> > listArray ((-1,-1),(1,1)) $ repeat 1
22:45:33 <lambdabot> array ((-1,-1),(1,1)) [((-1,-1),1),((-1,0),1),((-1,1),1),((0,-1),1),((0,0),...
22:46:27 <Bike> well can you write a function that can return either an array of int8 1s or double 1s!!
22:49:06 <oerjan> > let ones = listArray ((-1,-1),(1,1)) $ repeat 1; ones :: Num n => Array (Int,Int) n in (ones :: Array (Int,Int) Int8, ones :: Array (Int,Int) Double)
22:49:07 <lambdabot> (array ((-1,-1),(1,1)) [((-1,-1),1),((-1,0),1),((-1,1),1),((0,-1),1),((0,0)...
22:49:46 <Bike> uh i meant like «ones ((-1,-1),(1,1)) "Int8"» obviously
22:49:48 <Bike> you're failing me dude
22:50:10 <oerjan> sorry, no dependent typing
22:50:22 <Bike> so matlab is dependently typed
22:50:24 <Bike> haskell is inferior.
22:50:28 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:51:45 <boily> time to disappear in the Great Coldish Outside, while Bike sputters heresies.
22:52:00 <Bike> don't forget to bring your ix
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22:56:38 <Koen__> say I make a language that's essentially Thue but when you make a rule "original::=replacement", "original" is a regular expression, and "replacement" may contain "\0", "\1", etc., where \n means the substring that was matched by the nth group in the regular expression
22:56:53 <Koen__> is that too much redundant with an existing language or is it ok to make a page for it?
22:57:02 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:05:31 <ais523> Koen__: it's not massively interesting
23:05:37 <ais523> it's like a wimpmode Thue
23:05:48 <ais523> or possibly a hardmode Thutu
23:10:30 <oerjan> also, i vaguely recall it's been made already?
23:12:12 -!- Bike has joined.
23:13:39 <oerjan> didn't Koen__ mention that earlier
23:14:04 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:15:37 <Koen__> for some reason i've never read the rebel page
23:16:23 <Koen__> everytime I decide to read all pages in the category string-rewriting, I quickly end up with a huge tree of pages to read (half of which from wikipedia)
23:16:42 <Koen__> there are too many webpages in the internet
23:20:27 <Koen__> yup that's exactly the language I had been looking for
23:20:35 <Koen__> feeling less lonely now
23:33:50 <ion> A great idea emerged #elsewhere. Make an easier variant for kids of a certain well-known esoteric programming language, name it with s/brain/child/.
23:35:48 <mnoqy> that's a bad idea.
23:39:40 <kmc> great idea
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