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01:30:45 <Sgeo> Tcl makes me think of a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas Lisp is a wolf in wolf's clothing. Lisp, no one would try to modify someone else's code without trying to learn the language. Tcl, the language looks ... almost familiar, but if you don't know the language, there's a ton of things to screw up including possible security holes
01:31:08 <Sgeo> Tcl looks too inviting for how dangerous it is to try to write code without knowing the language
01:32:20 <Bike> i don't think i've ever seen a picture of a sheep wearing clothes
01:33:21 <kmc> Sgeo: interesting
01:37:47 <Bike> it seems like a lot of languages can get like that sometimes
01:37:53 <Bike> especially if they're "C-like" or whatever shit
01:38:26 <Sgeo> http://www.kocjan.org/tclmentor/5-why-double-evaluation-is-baaad.html
01:39:16 <Bike> oh, multiple evaluation is fun
01:42:20 <Sgeo> button $buttonname -command "puts $mymessage"
01:42:29 <Sgeo> button $buttonname -command [list puts $mymessage]
01:42:35 <Sgeo> http://phaseit.net/claird/comp.lang.tcl/fmm.html
01:43:01 <Bike> homoiconicity useful, huh
01:44:29 <Sgeo> Err, are you trying to suggest Tcl isn't homoiconic?
01:45:07 <Bike> just commenting a bit on using a data structure (if a simple one) making more sense than a string, is all
01:45:44 <Sgeo> Well, a list is a string in Tcl.
01:46:01 <Sgeo> Just... the list command's the better way to construct that string
01:46:31 <Sgeo> What's annoying is that a script, several commands, isn't a simple Tcl structure like a list
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02:17:01 <Bike> okay, well, that's pretty weird.
02:18:34 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortuna_%28PRNG%29
02:18:42 <Sgeo> That's so incredibly easy for even me to understand
02:19:45 <Bike> it's kind of weird how 'family of' means 'parametrized'
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03:01:17 <kmc> Bike: http://unicode-inc.blogspot.com/2013/09/henry-luce-foundation-grant-to-unicode.html "Henry Luce Foundation Grant to Unicode in Support of Encoding Tangut"
03:01:50 <ion> Let’s form a foundation and give a grant to Unicode in support of encoding Klingon.
03:02:15 <Gregor> Cool, I didn't know you could throw money at Unicode to get a new language in!
03:02:35 <kmc> yeah me either!
03:03:07 <Gregor> But clearly we should choose hieroglyphs and hieratics.
03:03:15 <Bike> are they not in there already?
03:03:20 <kmc> it's times like these that I'm glad I follow the Unicode Consortium on Twitter
03:03:23 <kmc> Bike: nope
03:03:26 <Bike> huh, i forgot 'tangutology' was a thing
03:03:59 <lifthrasiir> Gregor: it's like determining how many glyphs can be considered as a character as per the Unicode standard
03:04:01 <Bike> sometimes it's hard to remember that china is actually at least as diverse as europe
03:04:23 <lifthrasiir> for historical scripts like Tangut, it does take lots of works and also money
03:04:27 <Bike> i think the only sort of that text i've triedd to read were some old coptic letters. they didn't render but by god they had characters
03:06:09 <Bike> Gregor: so is that just hieroglyphs or also hieratics?
03:06:30 <Bike> http://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1jvnhb/maybe_a_dumb_question_regarding_the_documentary/ also what
03:12:51 <kmc> http://threewordphrase.com/hostage.htm
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03:30:04 <Sgeo> http://www.ibtimes.com/firefox-vs-chrome-mozilla-takes-top-honors-latest-web-browser-grand-prix-1330329
03:30:10 <Sgeo> It was in the nonperformance categories like memory efficiency, reliability, security and standards conformance that Firefox was really able to shine.
03:30:17 <Sgeo> Firefox? Memory efficient?
03:37:06 <Sgeo> "I just downloaded this because you said my current browser did not support my Google+ account; just to read you are retiring it! Then why did you offer it at all for downloading? I hope there will be suggestions by Jan 2014 what browser does support Google+!"
03:37:10 <Sgeo> [about Chrome Frame]
04:20:40 <kmc> Sgeo: yeah it's almost like when one browser gets better at something, the other manufacturers work to catch up
04:24:56 <Bike> #define rand01 (0.9999999*double(rand())/RAND_MAX)
04:28:19 <kmc> Sgeo: I use Firefox at work and Chrome at home and I don't notice a performance difference anymore
04:28:23 <kmc> but the work machine is pretty beefy
04:28:34 <kmc> Chrome is still markedly better than Firefox on my pathetic pre-Atom netbook
04:50:25 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
04:57:03 <Bike> «fscanf( stream, "%d", &dd); post[i][j]=dd; fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); s[i][j]=x; fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); sd[i][j]=x;»
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05:03:03 <litrink> How could you crack/attack this vignere cipher? http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=LdWfKLtP
05:04:26 <lifthrasiir> litrink: do you know the characteristics of plaintext?
05:06:10 <litrink> The hint I received was that the cipher was described in a book from 1553 La cifra del
05:13:13 <kmc> this again
05:14:05 <Bike> i'd like to note that my algorithm is constant time
05:14:38 <Bike> hiring djb to do it for me
05:16:09 <kmc> so this person is daakl / sdile / dlackili / sardig / mafingre / xantrixo / etc yes?
05:16:17 <kmc> and therefore evading bans
05:16:23 <kmc> I think we got tired of your act a while ago
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05:21:56 <Bike> shoulda had "whatever" as the kick reason
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08:17:55 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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09:41:36 <fizzie> "Jura [a fancy coffee-grinding-and-brewing-machine in one of the department break rooms] is undergoing maintenance as of today. Coffee substitute (also known as regular coffee) is available during Jura's hopefully short absence."
09:41:45 <fizzie> Those people take their coffee very seriously.
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11:55:50 <ambiltrif> http://pastebin.com/L5da2KjQ I am making a tic tac toe game in C, How can this code/algorithm be made better?
11:55:55 <ambiltrif> Or can someone show me a better/alternative approach?
11:57:47 <Koen> btw you included stdlib.h but I don't think you're using it
11:58:46 <Koen> apparently you're deciding which player is at turn by looking at what symbol they put in the grid?
11:59:03 <oerjan> now i'm smelling mafingre too
11:59:22 <oerjan> except the ip is australian. but he may have learned.
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12:04:24 <oerjan> if you are him _and_ litrink, then you are getting hard to ban.
12:05:00 <oerjan> obviously banning all of freenode's web gateway is unacceptable.
12:10:16 <oerjan> damn i wish i'd seen this before.
12:11:08 <oerjan> also that some other relevant ops were actually not idle.
12:12:29 <Jafet> @let xo s=let[p,q]=(show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s)."XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=c q."012|345|678"++if w q then" :-)"else"";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$(:p).(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q p
12:12:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `[[Char]]'
12:12:31 <oerjan> ambiltrif: i'm wondering if you've been here before
12:12:34 <Koen> the name sounds like ambf
12:13:02 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.9680
12:13:04 <ambiltrif> oerjan: I have been here once or twice
12:13:26 <oerjan> ambiltrif: under which nick?
12:14:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.28152
12:14:34 <oerjan> ambiltrif: we're getting paranoid about a person coming in and trolling us with changing nicks
12:14:39 <Koen> that's a language
12:15:05 <oerjan> fine, that's proof enough.
12:15:08 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
12:15:14 -!- oerjan has kicked ambiltrif ambiltrif.
12:15:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +bprt #esoteric!*@*.
12:15:50 <Jafet> @let xo=let[p,q]=(show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s)<$>"XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=c q<$>"012|345|678"++if w q then" :-)"else"";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$(:p)<$>(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q p
12:15:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `eval' failed with: Ambiguous infix expression
12:16:06 <Jafet> Why does lambdabot library keep changing
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12:27:40 <oerjan> fizzie: i hope i was not wrong in concluding ambiltrif was another mafingre etc. troll nick, but combined with the lintril earlier today the style seems extremely similar.
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12:31:45 <oerjan> oh hm that was the wrong syntax, sheesh
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12:34:19 <Koen> oerjan: how's he a troll? he was just asking a question about tictactoe :(
12:35:12 <fizzie> Koen: Also spamming the same question to all manner of unrelated channels.
12:35:17 <oerjan> Koen: he's identical to someone who has been trolling before, with stupid off topic stuff.
12:35:44 <fizzie> At least ##asm of the channels I'm on.
12:35:46 <oerjan> fizzie: oh did you see it in other channels? it would really help if people _told_ me this stuff as i'm only in a couple.
12:36:15 <oerjan> good. nails the evidence completely, then.
12:37:53 <Jafet> @let xo s=let[p,q]=map((show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s))"XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=map(c q)"012|345|678"++if w q then" :-)"else"";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$map(:p)(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q
12:37:54 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `(Int, [Char])'
12:38:00 <oerjan> Koen: also it doesn't matter how innocuous the question is if he's already banned here, the evasion is re-bannable in itself.
12:38:07 <Jafet> @let xo s=let[p,q]=map((show=<<).(`elemIndices`filter(/='|')s))"XO";i(n,[])=":-"++["(|O"!!(n+1)];i(_,q)=map(c q)"012|345|678";c q x|x=='|'='|'|elem x p='X'|elem x q='O'|True='.';w p=ap(==)(sort.intersect p)`any`words"012 345 678 036 147 258 048 246";n=first(0-);x a b p q|w p=(1,[])|w q=(-1,[])|True=z$map(:p)(['0'..'8']\\union p q)where z[]=(0,[]);z m=foldr y a m;y p a|a<b=max a(fst.n$x(n b)(n a)q p,p)|True=a;in i$x(-1,[])(1,[])q p
12:38:24 <Jafet> > xo "...|.X.|..."
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12:52:42 <boily> good Linux for Workgroups morning!
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12:59:23 <boily> quintopia: quintohayō.
12:59:45 <boily> @tell fizzie What is a coyote?
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13:04:23 <lambdabot> *** "coyote" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
13:04:23 <lambdabot> n 1: small wolf native to western North America [syn: {coyote},
13:04:23 <lambdabot> {prairie wolf}, {brush wolf}, {Canis latrans}]
13:04:23 <lambdabot> 2: someone who smuggles illegal immigrants into the United
13:04:44 <fizzie> (For some unknowable reason, it's the default quit message of bip.)
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13:05:25 <oerjan> bip bip obvious if you know
13:05:26 <boily> fizzie: wile e. coyote?
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13:07:51 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, for some reason I didn't realize it could have been named after that.
13:09:40 <oerjan> some unknowable reason
13:12:46 <Bike> so, my C is rusty and all, but you could write «fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); v[i]=x; fscanf( stream, "%f", &x); u[i]=x;» as «fscanf(stream,"%f%f",&(v[i]),&(u[i]))» or something, couldn't you?
13:13:38 <fizzie> Assuming the types of x and v[i]/u[i] are not different.
13:13:59 <boily> you can divide an array by an array in rust?
13:14:05 <fizzie> (The parens in &(v[i]) are also not strictly necessary.)
13:14:37 <fizzie> s/not different/all 'float'/.
13:14:38 <Bike> Hm, actually x is a float and v and u are double [arrays]
13:14:53 <Bike> what's the former do, then?
13:15:04 <fizzie> Reads a float, converts it to a double.
13:15:15 <Bike> could you do (float)&(v[i]) and so on?
13:15:16 <fizzie> You could make it "%lf", &v[i] to read a double directly, but it wouldn't be exactly same.
13:15:43 <fizzie> (float)&v[i] would be incredibly wrong, because it would try to convert the pointer to a float.
13:16:00 <Bike> though i'm guessing still no.
13:16:22 <fizzie> It would still write a float in an array of doubles.
13:16:36 <oerjan> a cast cannot change the underlying representation of the pointed to array
13:16:57 <fizzie> Reading it as double with "%lf" is arguably better (you don't have the accuracy loss of the float intermediary), but not an equivalent operation.
13:17:32 <fizzie> I suppose it's a judgement call whether the original author wrote it that way because he/she wanted the float semantics, or because he/she just didn't know about %lf.
13:18:08 <Bike> given this is the "C program" called .cpp i'm inclined to the latter
13:18:45 <Bike> plus there's similar code later but with %d and int.
13:19:03 <fizzie> In that case, fscanf(stream, "%lf%lf", &v[i], &u[i]) might be a reasonable replacement.
13:19:17 <fizzie> (I suppose there's no checking of return values either?)
13:19:42 <Bike> in what kind of application would you want it to go through float, anyway
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13:20:51 <fizzie> I can't think of an example other than "bug-compliant reimplementation of X", but that doesn't mean there isn't any.
13:21:09 <fizzie> Sometimes you might need exactly identical results.
13:21:36 <Bike> hm, well, thanks.
13:21:51 <Bike> (if you mean checking whether fscanf actually reads enough values then no)
13:26:39 <fizzie> I have audio files with transcripts where each line has one word along its start and end times. Now I'd need to inspect whether they are correct by some random listening. Do you happen to know of any useful software for this, and/or some easily-scriptable Python-or-something audio-playing library that'd make it easy to whip up code that, say, prints out the text one word at a time, sync'd with ...
13:27:45 <boily> gstreamer. strangely, the amount of effort to bootstrap a minimal audio player with it is very small.
13:29:28 <john_metcalf> Grrr... "To use this software you need to restart your computer"
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13:29:45 <fizzie> Mhm. I wonder if mplayer/vlc can display subtitles for audio files. It would be very simple to convert those files into .srt or something.
13:30:39 <fizzie> The "subtitle" menu seems to be grayed-out in vlc for a .wav. (But I suppose it would be reasonably simple to multiplex in a black screen.)
13:31:39 <boily> multiplexing seems to be the way, but mencoder is a pain in the fungot. can vlc be used for this kind of task?
13:31:40 <fungot> boily: any web page that lame is not to require heap in low memory. i think
13:32:34 <boily> there needs to be something as simple and straightforward as imagemagick's convert for scripted video authoring.
13:33:08 <fizzie> There's ffmpeg/avconv.
13:33:17 <boily> oh. didn't know about that.
13:33:41 <fizzie> You can (probably) use a single image as a single-frame "video" and have it loop the shorter file.
13:35:50 <fizzie> In fact, a plain avconv -i black.png -i sound.wav -acodec copy -vcodec mjpeg test.avi seems to have worked.
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13:40:37 <boily> fizzie: I suppose doing an s/avconv/ffmpeg/ will work too, as it seems I am still on the unforked side of the fforce.
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13:47:22 <fizzie> "SUB: Could not determine file format" grumble grumble.
13:47:33 <fizzie> VLC showed a subtitle track, but did not display anything.
13:48:10 <fizzie> I wonder if it's because there's only one video frame.
13:49:09 <fizzie> "video:5kB audio:546403kB" heh.
13:50:47 <boily> you need more black screens.
13:50:48 <fizzie> Ah, "avconv -loop 1 -i black.png ..." makes a more proper video.
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13:53:54 <fizzie> Yay, it works. And the alignment was reasonable, for the first minute.
13:54:45 <fizzie> cat out.txt | grep -v '^$' | grep -v '^#' | perl -ne 'BEGIN { binmode STDOUT, ":encoding(ISO-8859-1)"; binmode STDIN, ":utf8"; } chomp; ($s,$e,$t) = split; printf "%d\r\n%02d:%02d:%02d,%03d --> %02d:%02d:%02d,%03d\r\n%s\r\n\r\n", ++$idx, $s/3600, ($s/60)%60, $s%60, ($s*1000)%1000, $e/3600, ($e/60)%60, $e%60, ($e*1000)%1000, $t;' > out.srt
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13:56:53 <boily> that is disgusting. you could have replaced the cat|grep|grep with «grep -Ev '^$|^#' out.txt».
13:57:58 <boily> otherwise, the perl is... well, it's perl.
13:58:54 <boily> (urgh. I'm being corrupted by my sysadmin coworkers...)
14:06:51 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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14:16:05 <Roujo> boily: Well, you know what they say...
14:17:46 <boily> Roujo: they say not to do stupid things to the poor machines, or else your disk quota will be reduced and your VMs crippled.
14:41:19 -!- nooodl has joined.
15:04:48 <boily> random Haskell question: why should datatype fields be strict?
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15:07:25 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-06-molydeux-one-of-the-reasons-molyneux-left-microsoft
15:07:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if molyneux realises he's become a parody of himself
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15:16:17 <boily> we had a bout of internationalised greetings a few hours ago.
15:17:16 <nooodl> boily: how do i greet someone in quebeckqcqois
15:17:38 <nooodl> oops forgot my accents: québèckqçqöis
15:18:24 <boily> nooodl: same as in standard French. happens that we still haven't butchered greetings yet...
15:18:47 <boily> (and I'll have to remember that créatif spelling of québèckqçqöis.)
15:19:47 <boily> nooodl: well. you have «comment va?», between people from Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean. otherwise, the province-wide «pis, à part de tsa?» is another clasic.
15:20:35 <boily> but they are neither very close to «bonjour» and «bon matin».
15:26:12 <fizzie> I generally don't bother to optimize one-off command lines, but instead write them the way I think them.
15:26:36 <fizzie> Anyway, I could've obviously replaced both greps with the perl.
15:29:17 -!- Gregor` has changed nick to Gregor.
15:30:20 <boily> I ought to learn basic Estonian. it looks like it sounds good.
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16:12:04 <Taneb> Aaaah I have a dwarf fortress badge
16:12:08 <Taneb> And I don't quite know how
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16:24:11 <Taneb> You know, design attached to a safety pin type thing
16:25:10 <Taneb> On my bedroom floor
16:27:44 <Taneb> I'm not in York yet
16:27:52 <Taneb> Term starts stupid late
16:29:20 <Bike> what, really? it's practically october.
16:29:42 <Koen> term starts mid-november here
16:30:22 <Bike> also hey your underscores are gone
16:30:43 <Koen> TIME TO REGISTER
16:30:47 <Koen> thank you for telling me
16:31:09 <Bike> one of many lovely services i provide
16:31:18 <Koen> NickServ: Koen is already registered.
16:31:38 <Koen> time to never log out and hope I don't get ghosted
16:47:06 -!- DzieFull has changed nick to FreeFull.
16:48:26 <fizzie> "Last seen : Sep 17 06:09:05 2013 (10 hours, 39 minutes, 0 seconds ago)" it's not even an inactive account.
16:55:12 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: well... there may be that... >_>...
16:55:19 <Koen> fizzie: he's usually ALWAYS connected
16:55:29 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
16:55:50 <Koen> and by connected I mean logged in
16:59:57 <elliott> 12:59:22 <oerjan> except the ip is australian. but he may have learned.
17:00:11 <elliott> @tell oerjan mafingre is always australian. but different ISPs (sometimes mobile broadband, sometimes university, it seems)
17:00:58 <Bike> https://medium.com/weird-future/2acc5ba75929 very nice.
17:01:04 <elliott> @tell oerjan my suggestion is anyone who comes in on webchat with an australian IP and links to pastebin.com, it's almost certainly them. if they evade the question of whether it is then you can discard any remaining doubts
17:01:16 <elliott> @tell oerjan also I really wish they'd go away, it's not very fun any more.
17:01:24 <Bike> The roots of this division are sadly rooted in humanity’s pre-history. On the plains of our ancestors, male hunters roamed the savannah, chasing down prey, while women remained home to nurture families and gather berries. The males adapted for big movements and fast action, while the women adapted for slow, methodical searching. The traits that made women expert bug-huntresses in the dust have carried forward and given them an advantage a
17:02:03 <elliott> @tell oerjan oh and the IPs have geolocated to both Perth and Victoria, seemingly moreso the latter. so there may be proxying going on, or maybe Australian internet is just weird.
17:04:05 <boily> elliott: are you discussing the ion lickers?
17:04:09 <boily> Bike: what is that blog???
17:04:20 <elliott> no, the challenge-givers :P
17:04:28 <elliott> the licker gave up quickly, it seems.
17:05:26 <boily> and I have a slight little itty-bitty technical problem with metasepia. I registered the account with a randomly generated 14-char password.
17:05:35 <boily> (a password I have completely forgot.)
17:06:21 <Bike> boily: looks like they have no about page..
17:06:55 <Bike> https://medium.com/weird-future/4927989f3ecd i'm thinking it's a good one, though ("Six Radical Life-Extension Technologies for Transhumanist Consideration")
17:14:28 <elliott> boily: extract it from the binary?
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17:19:00 <fizzie> fungot: Do you remember your account password at all?
17:19:01 <fungot> fizzie: what's quack? i dont see a specific use of it, i'm afraid
17:28:25 <boily> elliott: it's not used from metasepia, it's just the freenode account I created afterwards...
17:28:54 <boily> think I can tell the guys at FN to reset the password for me, once I put the code on github and proove some legitimacy?
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17:37:27 <salparot__> hmm, FN is the swedish acronym (abbreviation? initialism?) for UN, so for a while there I thought you would try to get the UN to reset your password
17:38:09 <boily> salparot__: that could also work. also, were you `relcommed?
17:38:47 -!- salparot__ has changed nick to olsner.
17:39:37 * boily falls back in surprise
17:45:48 -!- Taneb has joined.
17:46:12 <boily> ah! someone I know!
17:47:28 <Taneb> Or should I say...
17:55:09 -!- audioPhil_ has joined.
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18:04:52 <fizzie> "bollo" would also be fine.
18:06:19 <Taneb> Streaming Dwarf Fortress @ 120x40 characters, telnet termcast.org
18:07:03 <myname> awesome, how is that done?
18:07:06 <Taneb> No I'm not, I messed up the init.txt
18:07:37 <boily> are you playing real-time at this very moment right now, or is it prerecorded?
18:07:38 <myname> what software is the streaming solution
18:07:48 <myname> i'd love doing something like that myself
18:08:05 -!- audioPhil_ has changed nick to audioPhil.
18:08:24 -!- audioPhil has quit (Changing host).
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18:10:48 <Koen> there appears to be some kind of ascii game playing itself in my console but I've got no idea what is going on
18:11:37 <myname> you don't know the great game dwarf fortress?
18:12:03 <boily> DCSS is better than dwarf fortress :D
18:12:19 <myname> it's the most complex and genious game i ever played
18:12:31 <olsner> Koen: it's not playing itself, I think Taneb is playing it
18:12:32 <myname> boily: i didn't got the hang of it, but it's hilarious
18:13:15 <myname> also, i find cataclysm really interesting
18:13:34 <boily> myname: which one? DCSS or DF?
18:15:20 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:15:42 <elliott> DF is way better than DCSS
18:15:58 <elliott> Taneb: "oh no is he making danger rooms..."
18:16:16 <myname> elliott: did you try cataclysm dda?
18:16:19 <Taneb> elliott, no I'm making a cunning trap
18:16:38 <elliott> I've played cataclysm but not the fork
18:16:56 <boily> Taneb: your dwarves have oddly turkic names...
18:17:18 <boily> (with bits of Hungarian thrown in for good measure)
18:26:15 <fizzie> boily: Continuing from yesterday, a search over the Cabal Hoogle database locates the following >3 character operators: http://sprunge.us/PfCe
18:26:24 <fizzie> ^#->#? seems like a good one.
18:26:38 <fizzie> (Possibly I should try getting the packages in the above list.)
18:29:14 <boily> I feel watched by <<..>> ...
18:31:34 <boily> :$#$#$#: is a joke, right?
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18:34:37 <fizzie> boily: http://sprunge.us/bSiZ
18:35:06 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: might be misattributed, based on just looking at a previous "^module (.*)" line.)
18:36:31 <fizzie> And :$#$#$#: is indeed in http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/she/0.4/doc/html/ShePrelude.html#t::-36--35--36--35--36--35-:
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18:38:04 <fizzie> Data.Composition has a kind of a cadddr thing going on there.
18:38:16 <boily> Control.Plumbers is pretty outrageous.
18:38:41 <fizzie> That's a many operators.
18:39:08 <fizzie> Oh, I seem to have messed up with commas in that new list, have to fix that.
18:41:08 <boily> NIB (http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/not-in-base/0.1.1/doc/html/NIB-Pointfree.html) provides some ingenious atrocities.
18:45:25 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/MOWM -- one more version, sorted firstly by length of operator (reversed), secondly by the module in question and thirdly by the operator string -- should keep related operators grouped better.
18:46:49 <fizzie> I like the +~--- and ---~+ of BioInf.RNAfold.
18:47:09 <boily> pages and pages of supermarioperators...
18:47:33 <myname> what is a supermarioperator?
18:47:50 <fizzie> Lens is pretty well represented too.
18:48:23 <boily> `learn supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
18:48:50 <shachaf> fizzie: is that a joke about lens and representability
18:49:14 <fizzie> It can be if you think a joke like that would make me look smart!
18:49:18 <fizzie> (But it wasn't, before.)
18:50:10 <boily> fungot: bro, do you even lens?
18:50:10 <fungot> boily: s/ had/ have/ the epiphany address bar.
18:50:58 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
18:52:13 <boily> the pdf is missing the last few quotes... I need to find an easy way to synch it with the repo...
18:52:36 <fizzie> boily: Also, the operator length distribution: http://sprunge.us/GFTH (doesn't merge identical ones, otherwise the '1' would be pretty lame)
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18:52:59 <fizzie> Ooh, I must also do a most-defined-operators thing.
18:53:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:54:53 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/XhVd there you go.
18:56:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/gUOX (all (!)s)
18:57:22 <boily> I guess <> comes from it not being defined in olden GHC distributions?
18:58:42 <boily> woah. holy uninputable unicode operators, batman!
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19:01:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.12738
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19:04:35 <Roujo> boily: Best idea ever: add git commit hooks to > and >>
19:05:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: git: not found
19:05:14 <Roujo> Can we install git on HackEgo?
19:05:29 <Bike> hackego uses hg, you horrible being
19:05:56 <boily> can we wrap HackEgo in git, then?
19:06:03 <Roujo> But it would be sooo easy to just push the new wisdom files to GitHub! =P
19:07:20 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:07:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:07:40 <Bike> Roujo: see: that
19:08:37 <Roujo> I'm just trying to think of a way to be able to push changes in wisdom/ to GitHub
19:08:44 <boily> Roujo: you have commit access to the wisdom repo.
19:08:52 <Roujo> boily: I know, thanks
19:09:12 <Roujo> I *could* just pull from HackEgo, then push to GitHub =P
19:09:17 <boily> Roujo: the sky is blue.
19:09:29 <Roujo> boily: I know, thanks =P
19:09:31 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:09:56 <HackEgo> wget: unable to resolve host address `cat'
19:10:58 <Bike> what were you expecting
19:11:04 <boily> Roujo: calamari is delicious. gravity curves light. russia is the most translated wikipédia article. Phantom_Hoover likes the diæresis. fungot is weird.
19:11:09 <Roujo> For HackEgo to find my cat >_>
19:13:33 <Roujo> `complain wget'ing the quotes takes forever
19:13:35 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:14:13 <Roujo> `complain s/quotes/wisdom files/g
19:14:14 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:14:48 <Roujo> So I can't just download the quotes
19:15:05 <Roujo> And I'm not wget the whole filesystem just to update the quotes
19:15:18 <Roujo> s/(wget)/going to \1/g
19:15:40 <boily> Roujo: pull the hg.
19:15:50 <Roujo> boily: Instructions unclear - got cancer
19:16:51 <Roujo> On a more serious note, what would the URL be?
19:17:49 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:18:07 <Roujo> But do I just pull that?
19:18:45 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:19:07 <boily> Roujo: just a moment...
19:19:19 <Roujo> boily: I think I got it
19:19:58 <boily> Roujo: hg clone http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg the first time, hg pull in the project's root after.
19:20:40 <Roujo> Yeah, cloning right now
19:20:52 <Roujo> I just didn't think that that URL would be the correct one for a clone
19:23:29 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
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19:27:21 <Roujo> Error 500 on GitHub
19:28:00 <Roujo> boily: Is GitHub down for you?
19:28:24 <Roujo> https://twitter.com/githubstatus/status/380049976862461952
19:28:41 <boily> bon, maudit, encore une fois...
19:29:05 <Roujo> Juste comme j'allais réussir à commiter =P
19:32:25 <Roujo> Down for Maintenance, now
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19:36:36 <Roujo> `fetch https://github.com
19:36:38 <HackEgo> https://github.com/: \ 2013-09-17 19:36:37 ERROR 503: Service Temporarily Unavailable.
19:40:21 <boily> fungot: ♪ding♪! you have quotes!
19:40:21 <fungot> boily: but ep2 and ep3 are operationally equivalent in _this_ order of evaluation than has been wasted due to duplication? :)
19:40:43 <boily> fungot: yes, there is some slight duplication, but the order was preserved.
19:40:44 <fungot> boily: since in this way. if after a decrement a number equals 127 then an answer reversal byte is toggled. it has parts.
19:41:17 <boily> fungot: can't remember if you had quote 128 (which is decremented). you still have 72 shiny featured quotes in your name!
19:41:19 <Bike> ain't that the truth.
19:42:55 <Roujo> boily: boily: boily: it worked!
19:43:52 <Roujo> Check the reposotory ^^
19:44:07 <HackEgo> Bienvenue sur le centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d’ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
19:44:20 <boily> Roujo: got an e-mail celebrating that!
19:44:33 <Roujo> `echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d’ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:44:35 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d’ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:44:52 <Roujo> What did I destroy now
19:45:03 <Roujo> `echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:05 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:20 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:21 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
19:45:31 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. \(Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.\) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:32 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:45:38 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. \(Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.\) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:45:40 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez
19:45:51 <Roujo> `run echo Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. \(Pour l’autre type d\'ésotérisme, essayez \#esoteric sur irc.dal.net.\) > wisdom/bienvenue
19:46:02 <Roujo> `run cat wisdom/bienvenue
19:46:03 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
19:50:44 <Roujo> boily: Alright, automated that with a nice script
19:53:23 <Roujo> boily: So yeah, it's done. Every quote *should* be on GitHub now ^^
19:53:52 <Roujo> Wait. Not quote. Wisdom.
19:53:58 <HackEgo> bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ delvs \ delvs-master \ dog \ etc \ factor \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ master.tar.gz \ mind \ multiply.bf \ no \ oerjan \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom
19:54:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access quotes/: Not a directory
19:54:33 <boily> Koen: who are you? I'd prefer having a nice learndb of you before adding your quotes to the PDF.
19:55:00 <kmc> `quote fungot
19:55:00 <fungot> kmc: you don't need to
19:55:01 <HackEgo> 505) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that up let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again." \ 591) <Vorpal> anyway fungot is the only esolang irc bot I know of that doesn't depend on nethack or a similar helper \ 896) <oerjan> fungot knows all. <fungot> oerjan: you are correct. there's no freedom for free. \ 951) * fungot h
19:55:16 <boily> kmc: you can check fungot's collected quotes in the PDF now.
19:55:26 <boily> fungot: yes you do, you nimrod.
19:55:27 <fungot> boily: just dissolve the pills in your beverage of choice before hand. d:...
19:55:44 <boily> fungot: no need to poison me. you should be grateful!
19:55:44 <fungot> boily: wait, you probally did that already
19:55:48 <boily> fungot: yes I did.
19:55:49 <fungot> boily: i'm learning scheme. the vm binary fits in about 128k on some platforms.
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19:56:04 <boily> fungot: neat. I read the R5RS myself some time ago.
19:58:06 <Roujo> kmc: I think it's the one in the topic
19:59:10 <boily> Roujo: could you fix your git identity? it's showing up as = <=>. c'est pas beau.
19:59:22 <kmc> that's quite the document
20:00:56 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:02:18 <Roujo> I was sure I set that up =/
20:03:32 -!- S1 has joined.
20:03:42 <Roujo> git config --global user.name = Jonathan Rouillard
20:03:52 <Roujo> ^ This gives you three names: =, Jonathan and Rouillard
20:04:01 <Roujo> Can I fix this on GitHub? =/
20:04:20 <boily> for those commit already made? bad idea.
20:05:38 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
20:06:36 <Roujo> boily: In any case, it'll be fixed for the next comments
20:07:22 <myname> ttyrec seems not to work with curseofwar :(
20:07:25 <Koen> boily: eh, the last attempt to `learn me was dimmed too lazy
20:08:15 <boily> Koen: oh. I put a note from the Editor as a placeholder. hth.
20:10:54 <boily> any Channelder who dares to describe Koen?
20:11:26 <Koen> btw the new youtube buttons are aweful
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20:13:23 <S1> will I ever comprehend?
20:14:27 <S1> Uh sry I mean
20:14:33 <boily> S1: see the /topic ↑. read. peruse. grok. flabbergast.
20:14:59 <Roujo> Emphasis on "Flabbergast"
20:15:36 <boily> and I have this sudden urge to apply Dr. Oerjan's Patented Flyswatter on the espèce d'achigan de brochet de perchaude who added LaTeX to the DB.
20:17:17 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
20:17:25 <Roujo> That would be me =P
20:24:59 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:26:34 <fungot> olsner: people have done a bit of code comes with lol. it's even worse than www.gotahoe.com www.gotahoe.com
20:26:35 <HackEgo> 505) <elliott_> now that we've cleared that up let us hug fungot = <fungot> elliott_: let's not start that again."
20:29:11 -!- S1 has joined.
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20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 30m 33s ago: mafingre is always australian. but different ISPs (sometimes mobile broadband, sometimes university, it seems)
20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 29m 41s ago: my suggestion is anyone who comes in on webchat with an australian IP and links to pastebin.com, it's almost certainly them. if they evade the question of whether it is
20:30:45 <lambdabot> then you can discard any remaining doubts
20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 29m 29s ago: also I really wish they'd go away, it's not very fun any more.
20:30:45 <lambdabot> elliott said 3h 28m 41s ago: oh and the IPs have geolocated to both Perth and Victoria, seemingly moreso the latter. so there may be proxying going on, or maybe Australian internet is just weird.
20:31:03 <elliott> now all those messages are in the logs twice :p
20:31:38 <oerjan> elliott: i think i confused him with hagb4rd and thought he was german-like
20:32:37 <oerjan> i guess that means he was possibly honest about not faking ip's when i talked with him
20:32:37 <kmc> how about I kick anyone who joins and immediately sends a pastebin link to some crypto puzzle
20:32:41 <kmc> regardless of IP etc
20:32:50 <kmc> they can go to ##crypto where it's Not My Problem
20:33:30 <oerjan> kmc: yeah that's the most obvious hint. but when i banned him he had only posted a programming thing (not esoteric)
20:33:41 <kmc> oh must have been a different incident then
20:33:54 <kmc> also I only kicked but they thought I banned them
20:33:55 <elliott> kmc: agreed with an exception for puzzles that are interesting in any way whatsoever
20:33:58 <oerjan> kmc: yes, he was on twice today.
20:34:13 <kmc> elliott: that would require me to, like, click the link
20:34:33 <boily> «cat *.tex | wc -l» → «5046».
20:35:16 <elliott> it's not like they'd even have gotten banned if they'd just kept giving stupid puzzles without doing the whole changing nicks and denying it's them thing. it's weird. like, what is the point other than to get banned?
20:35:23 <oerjan> elliott: anyway fizzie's pointing out that he's spamming _many_ channels is better proof, unfortunately i'm not on many channels so am not privy to that information unless people tell me
20:35:50 <elliott> oerjan: well I've already seen them give a challenge to #haskell.
20:36:05 <elliott> and then ask whether #esoteric is the right place for it when shachaf said #haskell wasn't.
20:36:09 <oerjan> but i considered my intuition good enough to ban him before fizzie said that.
20:36:32 <elliott> I suspect they migrated from ##crypto to #esoteric, guessing via the tunes.org logs because #haskell too?
20:36:34 <oerjan> elliott: well i'm not in #haskell. although i guess i do know where the logs are.
20:36:43 <kmc> yeah it's really hard to understand what they get out of this
20:37:26 <oerjan> anyway i tried to point out to him privately this time that ban evasion is good enough reason for re-banning.
20:37:45 <oerjan> (even if the original ban were unjust for some reason.)
20:38:17 <elliott> oerjan: I hear they've also ban-evaded in ##crypto, so I wouldn't bother
20:38:43 <oerjan> right, we just had a little chat.
20:38:52 <elliott> it's kind of weird for an ISP-hopping ban-evading nick-changing person to have a modus operandi as innocuous as just giving random challenges...
20:39:29 <oerjan> elliott: well with the crypto thing maybe he considers himself a H4XOR
20:39:38 <oerjan> and so does it just on principle
20:40:34 <Fiora> maybe like "I have to prove how much smarter/better I am by giving challenges that people can't solve and then showing off my smartness"
20:40:36 <oerjan> and the nick-changing, well, has anyone ever seen him use the same nick twice, i think it's autogenerated everytime he joins or something.
20:41:41 <oerjan> elliott: on the positive side, this time i managed to ban his actual freenode account which was nearly a year old. feels slightly more satisfying than whacking ip's.
20:42:19 <kmc> Fiora: yeah that happens a fair bit in ##crypto
20:42:24 <fizzie> I watched this "A Capella Science - Bohemian Gravity" video, and thought it was a fun even for a non-physicist.
20:42:41 <kmc> people come up with shitty cryptosystems then assert them to be unbreakable when nobody bothers to explain in detail why they're bad
20:42:48 <kmc> (or after arguing with all the explanations given)
20:42:54 <elliott> oerjan: have they really been identified all this time?
20:43:11 <shachaf> No, they're usually not identified.
20:43:13 <elliott> oerjan: that seems surprisingly amateur for someone who whipped out an EC2 instance to evade a ban :P
20:43:21 <elliott> (admittedly in the most transparent way possible)
20:44:31 <fizzie> oerjan: "many" might not deserve an underline, out of my (admittedly small) sampling it was just ##asm and ##c, on the latter of which it was even borderline topical (though ##c-basic would've been a better fit).
20:44:32 <oerjan> elliott: it is possible he just forgot it this time.
20:45:08 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe he had identified for the purposes of ##c or such, it's +r.
20:45:09 <oerjan> fizzie: well if it was really many he'd get klined and stuff right?
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20:52:10 <oerjan> <boily> random Haskell question: why should datatype fields be strict? <-- it prevents space leaks due to large thunks building up.
20:53:14 <boily> oerjan: then shouldn't they be always strict by default? all those sudden «!» startle me.
20:53:49 <kmc> no because Haskell is a lazy language
20:54:04 <kmc> making stuff strict for performance is something to do carefully, not a panacea where you throw everywhere
20:54:12 <kmc> throw ! everywhere
20:54:14 <kmc> of course people do that anyway
20:54:28 <boily> so I have to think when coding Haskell? how outrageous!
20:54:32 <kmc> i know right
20:54:36 <elliott> the style guide that recommends putting !s on everything is misguided.
20:54:47 <elliott> especially putting ! on e.g. a list is incredibly pointless
20:54:47 <oerjan> boily: if the structure is only used incrementally, then thunks can be _less_ expensive.
20:54:53 <elliott> since you only force the outermost cons cell at most
20:54:54 <kmc> laziness is more efficient sometimes
20:54:59 <elliott> (assuming it's constructed in a normal way)
20:55:02 <oerjan> e.g. infinite lists would be impossible with strict fields.
20:55:04 <kmc> it can use asymptotically less space
20:55:07 <kmc> if stuff uses
20:55:18 <elliott> I leave fields lazy by default except when I have a strong intuition that they should be strict, e.g. the coordinates in a point type
20:55:18 <kmc> im doing a real good job of typing today
20:55:24 <oerjan> kmc: you don't even need fusing, just gc
20:56:57 <HackEgo> bash: svn: command not found
20:57:18 <HackEgo> bash: cvs: command not found
20:57:26 <oerjan> Roujo: HackEgo has hg, although only read accress to its own repository.
20:57:42 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: because it doesn't really make sense to force them independently, or the constructor of the pair type separately from them
20:58:00 <elliott> especially since they're likely some flat (i.e. only ever either unevaluated or fully evaluated) integer type, there's no complex structure to delay
20:58:00 <boily> elliott: I didn't grind the Intuition Skill yet. all my XP went to boosting my understanding of monads, and I'm not even done with that yet (Cont is still giving me a headache).
20:58:05 <Roujo> oerjan: I know it has hg, I was just wondering if it also had svn
20:58:19 <shachaf> boily: Cont is the only one you need to understand!
20:58:26 <fizzie> At least it's got RCS.
20:58:36 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b }
20:58:39 <boily> shachaf: that's the problem. I understand the rest, but that one warps my brain.
20:58:49 <oerjan> Roujo: i _suppose_ you could make another repository inside HackEgo. recursion!
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20:59:11 <boily> Roujo: de quossé que are you not bussing lately? like, hovercraft?
20:59:30 <Roujo> boily: Weird schedule. Full of eels. So yeah.
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21:01:31 <oerjan> boily: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2008/12/mother-of-all-monads.html
21:02:41 <oerjan> that'll explain what shachaf said, and possibly give you a hint about Cont as well.
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21:03:24 <shachaf> Note that when he said Cont he really meant Codensity.
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21:06:31 <boily> oerjan: I read that post multiple times. didn't work. I think I have a problem with «<-», as used in the Cont context.
21:06:41 <boily> shachaf: codensity shmensity.
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21:07:43 <shachaf> newtype Codensity m a = Codensity { runCodensity :: forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b }
21:07:46 <shachaf> (>>=) :: forall m. Monad m => m a -> forall b. (a -> m b) -> m b
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21:08:41 <boily> isn't codensity exactly like plain old monad?
21:09:08 <Roujo> tee-tee-ouaille-elle, #esoteric
21:09:19 <shachaf> One of them is a type class and one is a type.
21:11:58 <oerjan> Roujo: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÀ
21:12:39 <oerjan> also, shouldn't it be ti-ti- or something
21:13:30 <oerjan> shachaf: i say just use reflection to convert
21:13:53 <boily> the Bilingual Spelled ティ ティ Why Elle strikes again.
21:14:14 <olsner> does fungot speak japanese?
21:14:15 <fungot> olsner: is it a draw with fnord to browse through some code that returned a procedure
21:14:59 <boily> fungot: 日本語は知っている？
21:14:59 <fungot> boily: nor is it for learning or for production?
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21:18:13 <shachaf> boily: Did you go through the usual exercises like writing out the Cont monad instance and stepping through some simple Cont code by hand?
21:19:20 -!- S1 has left.
21:20:26 <boily> shachaf: uhm. eeeeeh... >_>... partially?
21:21:21 <shachaf> @djinn ((((a -> r) -> r) -> r) -> r) -> (a -> r) -> r
21:22:25 <shachaf> Well, you might as well just use the library in that case.
21:23:02 <shachaf> I think there's value to stepping through it yourself when you don't have intuition for it.
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21:23:57 <shachaf> i heard that cool people implement Cont via the adjunction (-> r) -| (-> r)
21:24:51 * boily wildly flails around. “ADJUNCTIONS!”
21:24:59 <boily> the other thing that bugs me.
21:25:30 <boily> well. the second thing that leaves me in utter confusion. the third being lenses.
21:25:59 <shachaf> You can join #haskell-lens and I can talk about it later if you want.
21:26:36 <boily> my day is done, and I'm going to watch an English-subtitled Mandarin movie tonight. the lenses are punted to tomorrow for me.
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21:26:59 <shachaf> That's the hardest part of Cont.
21:27:09 <shachaf> You get the rest for free*!
21:27:22 <boily> I see what you mathematically did there.
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21:28:24 <Bike> "in serge lang’s complex analysis book, one of the exercises is to prove the non-trivial zeros of the zeta function have real part 1/2" good book
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21:31:57 <oerjan> always throw that in in case some student finds a simple proof everyone has missed.
21:33:04 <shachaf> @let type Cont' r a = (a -> r) -> r
21:33:26 <shachaf> @let return' :: a -> Cont' r a; return' x = ($ x)
21:33:48 <shachaf> @let fmap' :: (a -> b) -> Cont' r a -> Cont' r b; fmap' f = (. (. f))
21:34:06 <shachaf> @let join' :: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a; join' = (. return')
21:34:59 <Bike> "Come up with a theory that unifies general relativity and quantum mechanics. Devise and perform experiments to prove it. (Hint: you may have to invent new mathematics to do this)"
21:36:51 <fizzie> TAOCP, which ranks exercises from 0 to 50, famously had Fermat's Last as one exercise ranked to 50, and then later a post-Wiles edition downgraded the ranking.
21:37:36 <Bike> funny, i just mentioned a [50] problem that got answered (elsewhere)
21:39:05 <Bike> wonder how many of those specifically have been solved
21:39:43 <fizzie> I think Fermat went from [M50] to [HM45].
21:40:14 <fizzie> Possibly the lack of a H was because you never know, it might turn out there's a simple proof.
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21:44:36 <HackEgo> olist (919): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
21:45:34 <shachaf> `run ln -s olist bin/oohlist
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21:58:43 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed.
21:59:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/$/ He does not understand shell quoting./' wisdom/roujo
21:59:26 <HackEgo> Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
22:00:14 -!- augur has joined.
22:00:36 * oerjan doesn't understand it either, but not quite so blatantly.
22:01:15 <shachaf> no one likes join = (. return) :'(
22:01:53 <oerjan> that's not the usual definition, shachaf.
22:05:19 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, for Cont, of course.
22:06:50 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:07:26 <shachaf> And newtype noise makes it not work.
22:07:48 <shachaf> But the point is eta = eps = \x -> ($ x)
22:09:13 <oerjan> :t join :: Cont r (Cont r a) -> Cont r a
22:09:33 <lambdabot> Type synonym Cont' should have 2 arguments, but has been given none
22:09:33 <lambdabot> In a type in a GHCi command: Cont'
22:09:50 <oerjan> sheesh that is not helpful ghc
22:10:25 <oerjan> :t (. return) :: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a
22:10:26 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `r' with `a -> r'
22:10:26 <lambdabot> `r' is a rigid type variable bound by
22:10:26 <lambdabot> an expression type signature: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a
22:11:31 -!- Bike has joined.
22:12:15 <oerjan> oh i thought that was just -> stuff
22:12:23 <oerjan> :t (. return') :: Cont' r (Cont' r a) -> Cont' r a
22:13:06 <shachaf> @let halfmap :: (a -> b) -> (b -> r) -> (a -> r); halfmap = flip (.)
22:13:07 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
22:13:57 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/\\/\\end{verbatim} \\/' wisdom/latex
22:14:06 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
22:14:47 <kmc> is that a quine
22:15:09 <oerjan> kmc: i sincerely hope not^Wso
22:15:56 <Bike> presumably the point of this entry is basically to fuck with boily
22:17:38 <Bike> mention of backslashes
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22:31:09 <kmc> it just looks quiney
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22:32:04 <kmc> douglass found a LaTeX document that requires pdflatex to run four times to produce correct output
22:32:07 <kmc> not supposed to be possible
22:34:09 <Roujo> Bike: I can confirm that the point of `? LaTeX is to fuck with boily =P
22:37:25 <oerjan> kmc: what, is pdflatex supposed to be better than standard tex on converging?
22:41:57 <kmc> no, but I thought all the types of tex were supposed to converge after three runs
22:42:00 <kmc> maybe I was misinformed!
22:42:47 <oerjan> maybe i just didn't hear about it, i thought you could have loops and stuff
22:44:20 <oerjan> like, if things keep shuffling back and forth over page boundaries as cross references adapt to the previous version
22:45:23 <oerjan> it feels somewhat plausible that this could be made PSPACE-complete
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23:22:33 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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23:55:18 <Sgeo> `oohlist (919)
23:55:20 <HackEgo> oohlist (919): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
23:55:43 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have zero-width-space'd that
23:59:02 <Roujo> `unicode ZERO-WIDTH SPACE
23:59:04 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'ZERO-WIDTH SPACE'"
23:59:09 <Roujo> `unicode ZERO WIDTH SPACE