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00:30:07 <HackEgo> ♪♪ Freedom run away... ♪♪
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01:16:21 <madbr> hmm, I wonder how this data structure is called
01:16:32 <madbr> a vector that's split into pages (of, say, 256 entries perhaps) and each page can be "rotated" by an offset
01:17:05 <madbr> so that if you insert or remove an element, you don't have to update everything, only the page where it was inserted/removed, and then the first entry of all the following pages (plus "rotating" the page to keep the order consistent)
01:18:04 <Roujo> madbr: Interesting ^^
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01:21:01 <madbr> Random access is O(1), insertion/deletion is O(sqrt(N))
01:24:05 * pikhq prefers skip lists
01:25:16 <pikhq> Average O(log n) search, insert, delete, index and O(n) in-order access? Whee.
01:28:06 <madbr> don't you already get that from a tree?
01:28:57 <pikhq> Also, skip lists are easy.
01:29:38 <madbr> I'm trying to go for a structure that's balanced mostly towards random access
01:30:24 <madbr> with better performance than O(n) for insertion but worse than O(n log n)
01:32:28 <pikhq> (fair note, O(log n) figures are average case. Worst case is O(n)
01:33:01 <madbr> If you insert more data than a page though, then this structure wouldn't be faster than a straight vector though
01:33:28 <madbr> you'd need to introduce page remapping, which would slow down indexing
01:35:06 <madbr> it would also be possible to introduce multiple page levels, which would reduce insertion cost to O(cuberoot(N)), O(N^0.25), O(N^0.2) etc depending on the number of levels
01:35:33 <madbr> or O(n log n) if you had variable number of levels
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01:52:23 <Sgeo> Bike... isn't here
01:52:30 <Sgeo> Imagine if Common Lisp didn't have gensym :/
01:52:59 <mnoqy> imagine if common lisp macros were hygienic
01:53:04 <Sgeo> Tcl does not have gensym built-in. It's easy to write, but considering you have to do so or use a library, people might not think to reach for it
01:53:04 <Roujo> @ask Bike What would Common Lisp be like if it didn't have gensym?
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02:19:38 <Bike> @tell roujo like java without println, in that you can add the stupid thing back in like three seconds
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03:13:26 <Sgeo> Sure, but then everyone is forced to write their own or use a library
03:13:38 <Sgeo> Which could make using it feel more awkward
03:14:02 <Bike> people do that lal the time for other stuff though. no big eal.
03:19:27 <Sgeo> "• NULL cipher suites provide no encryption."
03:19:47 <Sgeo> No shit? Why would/does SSL/TLS support something like that?
03:20:13 <Bike> null cipher as in identity?
03:20:25 <Bike> oh, it's something else, derp
03:21:12 <Bike> "A null cipher is an ancient form of encryption where the plaintext is mixed with a large amount of non-cipher material. It would today be regarded as a simple form of steganography. Null ciphers can also be used to hide ciphertext, as part of a more complex system."
03:21:21 <Bike> according to god.
03:21:38 <Bike> like using the first letter of each word, that kind of thing.
03:22:02 <Sgeo> The null cipher in SSL seems to be identity
03:22:20 <Bike> oh, well, i'm sure somebody needs identity for something
03:22:26 <Bike> identity is just such a useful thing to have
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04:25:51 <Bike> Does anyone happen to know what happens if a C++ program uses __attribute__((constructor)) or equivalent with a function that can raise an exception?
04:27:05 <kmc> try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light
04:27:16 <Bike> i expected that.
04:28:05 <kmc> I mean, I don't think the C++ spec says anything about __attribute__((constructor)), although it probably says what happens if the actual constructor of a global/static object throws
04:28:33 <Bike> i mean the loads-on-dlopen stuff
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04:39:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2d 18h 13m 35s ago: I have also started seeing the thing where wikipedia tries to change to https automatically. I kind of like it. I think it's set by the "Always use a secure connection
04:39:32 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 48m 2s ago: ooooooooooow.
04:40:26 <kmc> you can't really do "Always use a secure connection when and only when logged in" with HTTP
04:40:40 <kmc> you can send an HSTS header but it will apply when not logged in too
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04:46:39 <zzo38> Now I have the full updated version of CGA Collection: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP The programs and documentation are updated, and there are some new ones such as Attribute Zone.
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04:52:34 <shachaf> oerjan: 21:45 <dolio> shachaf: Monads are algebras of the free monad monad.
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05:00:10 <zzo38> Please tell me if you like this game and of the upgrades it has, and of bug report, comment, opinion, question, complaint, and if you made up any new levels for these games and/or new games to add to this collection
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05:20:45 <zzo38> I have been thinking about the Newcomb's, and realize that purely statistically speaking, picking one box would seem to have the best expected value. However, "statistically speaking" is not the only way to speak.
05:27:01 <zzo38> This program compresses 28 sokoban levels into 942 bytes, although I am sure I could get much better compression than that; I have calculated that even simply adding Huffman coding improves will make it half the size.
05:28:32 <zzo38> Do you know a better way (which won't slow down too much or become too complicated)?
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05:45:05 <Sgeo> `pastequotes pooryorick
05:45:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.4128
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05:58:30 <fizzie> You could probably technically use the NULL cipher if, for some reason (maybe to be NSA-friendly?), you want a non-encrypted but authenticated pipe. (Though that reason doesn't really hold for the TLS_NULL_WITH_NULL_NULL cipher suite.)
05:59:26 <Bike> working nsa codename for skipjack
06:00:10 <fizzie> Anyway, "Application data MUST NOT be sent prior to the completion of the first handshake (before a cipher suite other than TLS_NULL_WITH_NULL_NULL is established)."
06:01:12 <fizzie> "TLS_NULL_WITH_NULL_NULL is specified and is the initial state of a TLS connection during the first handshake on that channel, but MUST NOT be negotiated, as it provides no more protection than an unsecured connection."
06:01:36 <fizzie> I guess it's cleaner to say that the handshake part also has a particular TLS mode.
06:03:14 <fizzie> (But e.g. TLS_RSA_WITH_NULL_SHA256 -- RSA for server authentication, the NULL cipher and SHA256 for the MAC -- seems to be on the cipher suite list, so I guess that's something you could negotiate.)
06:09:24 <nortti> ''This project has been named Gandalf, which stands for "Generic, AdvaNceD Application Loader (Filesystem aware)", and it is inscribed upon the source that it is the "One Bootloader to rule them all, One Bootloader to find them, One Bootloader to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."''
06:10:10 <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings."
06:27:45 <HackEgo> smlist (426): shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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06:28:55 <mnoqy> what a good tuesday
06:29:09 <elliott> I'm glad I forgot to read super mega for like a month. now I get lots of them in one go
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08:14:31 <nvd> Huh, not registered
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08:23:10 <oerjan> <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings." <-- of course not, a _real_ connection wouldn't confuse gandalf and sauron.
08:24:23 <oerjan> fizzie: i say you make the finnish fungot style out of all the spam that keeps coming these days.
08:25:18 <oerjan> i guess getting finnish spam would not be as weird to a finn.
08:25:39 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to learn Finnish?
08:26:05 <oerjan> fungot: are you rebelling against your maker?
08:26:15 <fizzie> Last thing in the log is that "Huh, not registered".
08:26:58 <oerjan> something has gone horribly wrong!
08:30:04 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't get any Finnish spam. :-(
08:32:55 <fizzie> Curious also: I get "PING :pratchett.freenode.net"s in the log every few minutes.
08:33:02 <fizzie> It's like a split without a split.
08:35:17 <oerjan> Taneb is also on pratchett fwiw
08:36:07 <oerjan> didn't it log his nick change?
08:36:18 <fizzie> Should've said "last comment".
08:36:27 <fizzie> Everything after the nick-change is just PINGs.
08:36:44 <fizzie> Your quote just came in.
08:36:52 <fizzie> Only 14 minutes or so late.
08:37:06 <fizzie> Perhaps there's some sort of a time distortion field?
08:38:07 <fizzie> I don't have timestamps in the rawlog to console, sadly. Perhaps I should have.
08:40:15 <fizzie> Still no sign of your first line mentioning fungot, which I guess means the distortion is getting worse.
08:40:23 <fungot> oerjan: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, i think this is already the case for the past ten years, after fifteen years of decline due to the lower age limit of 18 years of this directive may well also prove quite difficult now. the second point which i would like to focus briefly on the issue of inadequate human and financial resources available. the same goes for the liberal economy and to the disadvantage of consumers an
08:40:44 <oerjan> let me guess, it just got in :P
08:41:08 <fizzie> You chose... correctly.
08:41:24 <fizzie> Funny that the reply got through pretty much immediately.
08:42:06 <fizzie> Somewhere in the network there's a very long queue, I suppose.
08:43:29 <fungot> fizzie: as i think it is wrong that all the citizens of north korea to grow seed crops that will produce, we want a europe which locks people out. they have forced the flexibility instrument because, in balancing up the different methods of waste disposal as proposed by the commission.
08:43:45 <fungot> oerjan: commissioner, you have set a timetable, as we have all been quite horribly murdered by people coming from some of the reasons why others cannot be overlooked in this information society are, ladies and gentlemen, i am more than happy to grant the commission discharge. how much is it? entirely because of the substance in a declaration. i hope you will understand history and the brutality was not just the euro, that it co
08:44:33 <Taneb> I would like to learn Finnish
08:45:02 <oerjan> and a Taneb, but no way to know how soon he responded.
08:46:05 <fizzie> At the moment it is at "something has gone horribly wrong!"
08:47:14 <oerjan> my fungot whois from way back came in
08:47:56 <Taneb> I have to say that IRC feels a bit bumpy to me
08:48:11 <oerjan> you would say that, wouldn't you.
08:48:24 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, i have supported, and the traffic in northern italy over the past few years with regard to a simple majority in parliament who are not.
08:48:57 <oerjan> wait, when did you say the next fungot
08:49:05 <fungot> oerjan: when we talk about the dutch example that you yourself, mr santer made a statement on its positions concerning key budgetary issues. in respect of public health protection, the contribution of this report despite the fact that the treaty of nice which, mr fnord, the leader of the governing council if we really want to hold up a mirror to turkey's progress reports year after year hangs over the forests of the north. i fa
08:49:14 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, you just responded to mr wijsenbeek and this house will take note of these. the commission welcomes the european parliament's estimates, also in the european union
08:49:29 <oerjan> you're back! you're safe!
08:50:36 <fungot> fizzie: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!
08:51:16 <Taneb> I'm not entirely sure what is going on
08:51:43 <fizzie> Nothing to see here but reflections from weather balloons, move along.
08:51:43 <oerjan> oh no, he's still distorted - in his mind!
08:52:44 <oerjan> Taneb: do you also feel a weird attraction to learning welsh?
08:53:10 <Taneb> But I do have a lot of italian biscuit things
08:53:12 <oerjan> ah. then i gues you aren't the reincarnation of tolkien anyhow.
08:53:48 <oerjan> that was the inspiration for one of his smaller elvish dialects
08:54:53 <oerjan> fungot: wait how did you silently change from europarl to ct
08:54:55 <fungot> oerjan: the knight spirit has long been broken! the mountain of woe. it's likely that dalton came from the laboratories to the west?... yes! well then rest and relax! huh?
08:54:55 <Taneb> I did actually try to learn Welsh once
08:55:02 <Taneb> Didn't get very far
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08:55:34 <oerjan> fungot: can the sword alone stop?
08:55:36 <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this world are places like that. a peaceful. hah! you think you are? coming and going out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
08:56:50 <oerjan> fungot: yes, but how is that relevant to sword stoppability?
08:56:52 <fungot> oerjan: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca the great magus. oh! crono!!
08:57:54 <oerjan> fungot: but i'm not very good with swords. might lose my arm or something.
08:57:55 <fungot> oerjan: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! i owe you one! you saved the day of lavos"... go to " mystic mountain" 65,000,000 b. c.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
08:58:16 <oerjan> fungot: well keep looking.
08:58:50 <fizzie> oerjan: I thought, given your exclamation points and the topic of time shenanigans, it would be more appropriate.
09:03:13 <oerjan> @arr It's that day again!
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11:55:38 <fizzie> I just can't help it that the Python list-flattening "idiom" (I'm not sure how widely used it) of [item for sublist in list for item in sublist] just confuses me. I can think through it with effort, but it just doesn't parse right in my head naturally.
11:56:01 <fizzie> I think if they had it in the [item for item in sublist for sublist in list] order it would.
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12:50:43 <fizzie> What's the generic installed-by-default Unix-like tool for computing sums of numbers? I'm getting tired of always writing a perl or awk oneliner.
12:53:04 <Gregor> Actually, I think only bc is specified by POSIX, but historically speaking, dc.
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12:57:14 <fizzie> I think I've used bc but that involves making a summation expression, which is nasty too.
12:59:35 <ais523> I think the perl oneliner is the correct way to do it
13:03:48 <fizzie> `run echo '1 2 3 4 5' | dc - <(echo '0ss[q]sq[z1=qrls+ssdx]dxlsp')
13:04:07 <fizzie> I'm sure that's easier to construct than a Perl oneliner.
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13:08:25 <myname> there should be J installed everywhere! make things much easier
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13:11:50 <oerjan> darn hth preservation failure
13:12:11 <oerjan> myname: i don't know but jconn has been here for ages
13:12:28 <oerjan> <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings."
13:12:28 <oerjan> <nortti> "Note: This project bears no connection with the Lord of The Rings."
13:13:11 <oerjan> when you accidentally paste with your stomach you might be having your laptop too comfortably placed
13:13:58 <boily> good since-when-oerjan-can-hth-again morning!
13:14:39 <myname> but i don't know how that bot works
13:14:51 <myname> i want to rewrite that for myself
13:15:28 <boily> myname: iirc, you'll have to ask Jafet. I think he's the one who's jconning this chännel.
13:15:54 <myname> i am writing an xmpp bot ;)
13:17:13 <oerjan> boily: i've always been able to hth, just not at the end of the line
13:18:52 <myname> is d for did or for didn't?
13:19:10 <oerjan> should be did, otherwise you say
13:19:41 <boily> the tdh is not the tdnh, if twh. hth.
13:20:01 <boily> oerjan: how many hth variants are your barred from?
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13:21:15 <oerjan> boily: hth, twh, twnh, tdh and
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13:34:56 <oerjan> so, we live in a world where, after something attains perfection for a while, it then becomes unfashionable and falls out of use.
13:35:26 <oerjan> (daily oerjan melancholy)
13:38:53 <boily> just wait 20 years, then your melancholy will become retro and vintage.
13:39:58 <oerjan> no, that happened 20 years ago, then it went out of fashion again. of course it happened during the _one_ period in my life when i wasn't depressed.
13:40:23 <myname> what the hell are you talking about
13:40:44 <oerjan> myname: yeah, pretty much.
13:41:26 <oerjan> the theory that i'm already dead and in hell has a lot going for it.
13:41:50 * oerjan somehow laughs, anyhow.
13:42:16 * boily gives a herring plushie to oerjan
13:42:58 <oerjan> that sounds like a friendly gesture, but i'm afraid it's a red herring.
13:44:11 <boily> it only appears red because of hell's lighting. it's an optical illusory friendly herring ersatz.
13:45:47 <myname> oerjan: i still haven't figured out what a piece of code did you gave me once :D
13:46:29 <oerjan> myname: well i've forgotten?
13:47:03 <oerjan> you could paste, if you like.
13:47:06 <myname> it was (2+(1<<x))<<(-1-(1<<x))
13:47:45 <oerjan> hm was that for an esolang? i remember there was one that needed bit shifting.
13:48:08 <myname> yeah, it was for one i designed and i proved turing-completeness recently
13:48:45 <oerjan> it was for testing something for x.
13:49:05 <boily> silly me, trying to run that through python. either it's complaining about negative shifts, or long ints being too large.
13:49:23 <boily> I wonder if I can haskell that code...
13:49:48 <oerjan> > [(2+(1`shiftL`x))`shiftL`(-1-(1`shiftL`x)) | x <- [-2..2]]
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13:52:12 <oerjan> ok if x is negative, that gives 2<<(-1), which should be 1.
13:53:03 <myname> otherwise it should be 0
13:53:15 <myname> how did you came to this :D
13:55:28 <oerjan> well, the idea is that shifting y right by y would give 0 for any number, but by decreasing the shift slightly you can get a few exceptions.
13:55:47 <Roujo> 'morning, #esoteric
13:56:26 <oerjan> or well, step 1: 1<<x is 0 for x negative, something positive otherwise.
13:56:57 <Roujo> Realization of the day: My girlfriend in NP-Complete
13:57:19 <boily> I'm tempted to answer «helloujo», but mentioning any word that has «hell» in it seems to disrupt ørjan today...
13:57:47 <Roujo> That is, given a certain desired outcome, it is very hard to find the required input
13:58:08 <Roujo> However, given a certain input, it's pretty easy to see if it produces the desired outcome
13:58:09 <oerjan> step 2: use right shifts and tweaking with constants to turn 0 into 1 and every other positive number to 0.
13:58:26 <Roujo> So yeah. NP-Complete
13:58:59 <oerjan> Roujo: you are assuming the input always has the same effect. otherwise, she might be PSPACE-Complete.
13:59:31 <Roujo> oerjan: Well, given that she's in the same state, the same input will always have the same outcome
13:59:37 <myname> Roujo: isn't that just the definition of "being in np"?
14:00:06 <Roujo> Sounds like it, anyway
14:00:22 <myname> to be np-complete you have do reduce to 3sat
14:00:40 <Roujo> Sure, I'll get right on that
14:02:04 <oerjan> no, you need to reduce 3sat to her. sheesh, people always get that the wrong way around.
14:02:30 <Roujo> I guess the NP problem would be "interacting with my girlfriend", anyway
14:02:35 <Roujo> Not my girlfriend herself
14:03:14 <oerjan> Roujo: i dunno, it feels more like sokoban (where you can get stuck in corners) than sudoku, no? and sokoban is PSPACE-complete.
14:03:42 <Jafet> Perhaps she is equivalent to set domination.
14:03:46 <boily> Roujo: gorging myself on unapproved yerba mate.
14:03:57 <Roujo> Right. The way I formulated it implied that there's always a solution, didn't it
14:04:31 <myname> boily: in what way unapproved?
14:04:36 <boily> Roujo: my argentinian coworkers disapprove my technique.
14:04:53 <metasepia> Software description: a ruby gem which adds support for yerb (yaml with erb) to yaml (Ruby).
14:06:45 <metasepia> Software description: eRB for JavaScript (JavaScript).
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14:16:29 <Roujo> [10:06:08] <boily> [09:20:01] oerjan: how many hth variants are your barred from?
14:16:29 <Roujo> [10:06:08] <oerjan> [09:21:15] boily: hth, twh, twnh, tdh and
14:17:03 <ais523> he's not allowed to use them at the end of sentences
14:17:21 <Roujo> That's why I found it funny
14:17:37 <Roujo> I'm just curious as to what that last one was
14:17:48 <Roujo> Ah, yeah, probably
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14:17:53 <nooodl> that would help, that would not help, that did help, that did not help
14:18:07 <boily> Roujo: most of them are in the wisdom.
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14:18:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
14:18:41 <Roujo> I had a nice conversation with Koen the other day, re: netsplits
14:18:50 <Roujo> Something about being on the "right side" of the split
14:19:10 <Roujo> And how he always managed to do that, since it was always the other side that quit the channel
14:19:36 -!- Tayler has joined.
14:19:46 <HackEgo> Tayler: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:20:26 -!- conehead has joined.
14:20:35 <Roujo> Heya. How is it going?
14:20:54 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 273 seconds).
14:21:16 <Roujo> Yeah, the moon is up
14:21:50 <Tayler> where are you from? it's day in my house rsrs
14:22:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3990
14:22:10 <Roujo> Tayler: It's day here as well, and yet the moon is up
14:22:53 <Roujo> oerjan: Most of those are about dupdog. That's sad =P
14:23:11 <oerjan> Roujo: yes, but look further
14:23:25 <Roujo> <Phantom_Hoover> And then elliott brought in another totally unrelated bot named updog which did nothing but say "what's updog" whenever its name was mentioned.
14:24:41 -!- Tayler has left.
14:25:25 <boily> he left! why do they always leave! I was typing the The Question! and asking him about his opinion on the malleability of steal!
14:25:35 <oerjan> the next time elliott complains about botspam in the channel, just mention updog
14:26:05 <oerjan> boily: it's ok you don't need to ask the the question of people who aren't staying
14:26:29 <boily> oerjan: but it's fun...
14:26:34 <oerjan> it's supposed to be the center of mass of #esoteric, not people-who-once-passed-through-#esoteric
14:26:59 <Roujo> So the Regular Center of Mass, not the Transient one
14:27:08 <boily> I know. I only log the Relevänt Coördinates of People who Stay Here Enough to be Graphed by Fizzie.
14:27:37 * boily shudders in terror at the memories of transient responses in unstable dynamic systems
14:28:02 -!- elliott has joined.
14:28:26 <boily> oerjan: and besides, I assume temporary visitors have no measurable mass.
14:28:56 <oerjan> boily: well they're basically virtual particles, so presumably they borrow mass from the vacuum.
14:29:54 <boily> in light of that multidimensional eldritch amplitudedron, that confuses me even moreso.
14:30:34 <oerjan> it's just yog sototh, nothing to be upset about
14:31:21 <boily> oh. I was worried there for a moment.
14:37:12 -!- updog has joined.
14:38:53 <boily> uhm. «updog (~updog@modemcable226.119-70-69.static.videotron.ca) a rejoint #esoteric».
14:39:02 <boily> subtle. real subtle.
14:39:30 <oerjan> i guess it was inevatble.
14:40:06 <oerjan> in fact i considered suggesting it, until i remembered how much trouble it was last time
14:41:24 <oerjan> hm .ca, perhaps this isn't elliott's work
14:41:51 <Jafet> How much trouble is it if no one actually says updog
14:42:14 <oerjan> don't worry, that's not the troublesome part iirc
14:43:20 <boily> oerjan: it's hosted somewhere on a server probably southeast from downtown Montréal.
14:43:46 <oerjan> boily: why do you think i'm glaring at Roujo
14:44:07 <Roujo> I have no idea what you're talking about
14:44:12 <Roujo> There's no server involved at all
14:44:22 <oerjan> Roujo: neither did elliott, last time
14:45:37 <Roujo> What's the worst that could happen? =P
14:46:04 <oerjan> DON'T ASK THAT QUESTION
14:46:20 <oerjan> sheesh, you'd think he doesn't even _read_ tvtropes
14:46:25 <boily> 69.70.0.0/16 belongs to Vidéotron. 69.70.96.0/19 is tied to a small hosting provider, linked to the Parti Québécois. the nearest good phở is in Chinatown.
14:46:50 * boily touches wood. no way I'm gonna get jinxed by an untroper.
14:46:54 <oerjan> Roujo: i see boily is slowly revealing all the important relevant information
14:47:19 <ais523> oerjan: or – if BSD is involved – xkcd
14:47:30 -!- aloril has joined.
14:48:21 <ais523> this probably explains /dev/null/nethack, actually, which uses BSD exclusively
14:48:30 <ais523> because it's run by NetHack players, they know how to deal with sharks
14:48:44 <ais523> but the extra effort that takes subtracts from the time actually getting the tournament running
14:49:24 <oerjan> ais523: congratulations, you've managed to be too obscure to google
14:50:02 <ais523> oerjan: because I don't rely on Google, I don't structure my sentences in such a way that Google can easily explain what they're about
14:50:07 <ais523> which part were you trying to google?
14:50:46 <oerjan> well i have only got to the xkcd part
14:51:34 <ais523> http://www.xkcd.com/349/
14:52:19 <ais523> not a direct link, but the explainkcd page about it was the third result for "xkcd bsd sharks"
14:52:26 <Roujo> From broken desktop to sharks in 14 hours flat
14:53:07 <oerjan> ais523: well i was trying to include "worst that could happen"
14:53:20 <ais523> this conversation is probably some deeply profound statement about search engines
14:53:23 <ais523> I'm just not sure what
14:54:09 <oerjan> `run quote reference #also this
14:54:11 <HackEgo> 88) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making.
14:54:39 <HackEgo> 798) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
14:54:49 <oerjan> did someone remove the quote.
14:55:19 <boily> speaking of quotes, what should I down about those from People that Left the Channel and Probably will Never be Back?
14:55:59 <Roujo> For they shouldn't be forgotten
14:56:59 <ais523> `pastlog ais523.*cultur
14:57:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.18809
14:57:17 <HackEgo> 798) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
14:57:26 <HackEgo> 2011-08-24.txt:23:42:16: <elliott> ais523: also, rich for you to say essentially "how can <PERSON> not know <ITEM OF POP CULTURE>"
14:58:50 <boily> Roujo: I'll lump them in a section, then.
14:59:47 <oerjan> `pastlog ais523.*obscure
14:59:55 <HackEgo> 2008-02-06.txt:17:17:28: <ehird`> ais523: i think yours is a bit too obscure, yeah
15:00:46 <ais523> you need more search terms than that
15:00:51 <ais523> what are you trying to find, anyway?
15:00:56 <ais523> or do you need to find it to know what it is?
15:00:59 <Roujo> An obscure quote, probably
15:01:24 <oerjan> yes, i don't remember the wording used
15:01:49 <oerjan> in fact, i vaguely recall having trouble searching for it before
15:05:13 <boily> Deewiant: who are you, so that I may not have to lump you and that you may Shine with your Own Section?
15:05:26 <oerjan> `pastlog ais523.*obscure.*reference
15:05:35 <HackEgo> 2009-04-29.txt:17:11:51: <ehird> ais523: OBSCURE REFERENCE BUDDIES *HI5*
15:05:56 <ais523> `pastlog \<ais523\>.*obscure.*reference
15:06:05 <HackEgo> 2012-03-04.txt:05:10:37: <HackEgo> 2011-12-01.txt:21:31:28: <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
15:06:22 <ais523> oerjan: is it that one that you're looking for?
15:07:48 <Deewiant> boily: I am the world's number one expert on Befunge and Funge-98.
15:07:53 <oerjan> funnily, it returned a previous search attempt instead of the original
15:08:46 <boily> `learn Deewiant is the world's number one expert on Befunge and Funge-98.
15:09:28 <ais523> yeah, I think I agree with Deewiant there
15:09:47 <ais523> for ages, the ontopic discussion here was sustained via Deewiant and Vorpal discussing Funge-98
15:10:01 <Deewiant> I can't remember who said that originally. (I know it wasn't me.)
15:10:02 <Taneb> We've had on-topic discussion here?
15:10:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:10:32 <ais523> it used to be ontopic all the time
15:10:46 <ais523> then it stopped, and I stopped going here because there was no reason to stay
15:10:47 <boily> Taneb: the channel is Old. I'm digging deep into its History as we speak.
15:10:52 <ais523> or, well, there used to be offtopic discussion too
15:10:58 <ais523> but it was a smaller proportion
15:11:04 <ais523> (it was also rather more distasteful)
15:11:12 <ais523> `pastlog expert on Befunge and Funge-98
15:11:13 <Gregor> On-topic conversation will not be tolerated.
15:11:17 <Taneb> `quote did you even read the bible
15:11:23 <Deewiant> ais523: It probably wasn't in those words.
15:11:25 <ais523> Gregor: do you really want to drive me away from the channel again?
15:12:05 <Taneb> I ought to create another language
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15:14:38 <Taneb> Anyone want to try and collab?
15:14:47 <Taneb> And usher forth a new age of esolangs!
15:14:51 <Roujo> What's the idea? =)
15:15:08 <Taneb> Now all we need is a cool idea
15:15:54 <Taneb> Something to do with modulo arithmetic?
15:16:01 <ais523> most of my ideas were either a) made into esolangs, b) turned out to be almost impossible to make into esolangs, or c) I haven't had the time to work out the details of
15:16:27 <Taneb> Most of my ideas were either a) stupid, or b) stupid and also made into esolangs
15:16:52 <ais523> I dunno, even stupid ideas can be interesting esolangs
15:16:52 -!- augur has joined.
15:16:56 <ais523> see Quiler, for instance
15:17:16 <ais523> also I just searched that on Bulbapedia rather than Esolang by mistake
15:17:19 <ais523> no results, unsurprisingly
15:17:49 <Roujo> An Esolang made out of Pokemon!
15:18:17 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PokéArena
15:18:22 <boily> a dataflow / visual programming of the bastard child of Maple, Mathematica and Matlab!
15:18:32 <boily> s/g o/g version o/
15:18:38 <ais523> unfinished, by the look of things
15:18:45 <Roujo> That sounds a bit unwieldy =P
15:19:14 <ais523> you can see me and zzo38 trying to make PokéArena more realistic on the talk page
15:19:31 <Roujo> I was thinking more along the lines of pokemon being variables, with attacks being keywords (the effect depending on the type)
15:20:50 <Roujo> ais523: Yeah, like you said on the talk page =P
15:21:15 <Taneb> We could start over with a new Pokémon-themed esolang
15:21:54 <ais523> boily: typo on page 34 of the quotes PDF: there's a ~ that's rendering as a nbsp rather than a ~
15:22:38 <Taneb> Call it "Battle" or something
15:23:20 <ais523> the problem is that there's only 6 Pokémon on a team, with 4 attacks, 1 item, 1 ability each
15:23:26 <ais523> putting hard limits on the size of the program
15:23:30 <ais523> but that's interesting in its own right
15:23:52 <boily> ais523: nice catch. I'll have it replaced soon.
15:24:06 <boily> ais523: say, do you have a github account, so that you may commit it yourself?
15:24:11 <Taneb> Well, each Pokémon 6 stats, an experience value, a nature...
15:24:34 <ais523> I have a mostly irrational hatred of github
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15:24:58 <Taneb> ais523, yes, I swear this is about the third time you've come to this revelation
15:25:11 <Taneb> And this morning I registered nvd
15:25:23 <ais523> is atriq a rot-13'd ngevd?
15:26:00 <boily> ais523: time to face you fears. otherwise, spiders, your mom, and all that psychanalysis stuff.
15:26:05 <ais523> also, did you ever design that Rummy mixed with Breakout language?
15:26:08 <Taneb> "gnaro" sounds like it ought to be a Pokémon
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15:26:16 <Taneb> ais523, I don't think so
15:26:24 <Taneb> I can't remember the context for that
15:26:33 <HackEgo> 435) <Taneb> So it's like... Rummy mixed with... breakout?
15:26:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rot26: not found
15:26:42 <Taneb> It was me badly misunderstanding something
15:27:07 <ais523> Roujo: it's called `echo
15:27:24 <ais523> also, "rot13 four times" is one of the stupidest of the Slashdot memes
15:28:05 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
15:28:13 <Roujo> `rot13 Slashdot | rot13 | rot13 | rot13
15:28:15 <HackEgo> Fynfuqbg | ebg13 | ebg13 | ebg13
15:28:22 <Roujo> `run rot13 Slashdot | rot13 | rot13 | rot13
15:28:30 <Taneb> What would a rummy-mixed-with-breakout esolang look like?
15:28:37 <ais523> Rummy, and Breakout, presumably
15:28:56 <ais523> I guess the ball would bounce off the cards
15:28:57 <boily> Jafet: who are you? are you Deewiant? do you want to be undescribed, lumped or separated?
15:29:16 <Taneb> Okay, in Rummy you have to collect (say 7 card hands) a 7-card straight or a 3 of a kind and a 4 of a kind
15:29:31 <ais523> something like that, yes
15:29:33 <Taneb> In breakout, you have to bounce a ball on a paddle to destroy bricks
15:30:06 <ais523> I guess the rummy part could have limited storage and be used for control flow and the like
15:30:17 <ais523> and the breakout part could be for the unlimited storage
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15:30:50 <Taneb> well, I shall certainly think about this
15:30:59 <Taneb> But now I must leave!
15:31:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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15:37:35 <boily> the early recorded history of the channel seems to be centered on sex...
15:38:12 <ais523> I tended to stay out of those discussions
15:39:04 <Roujo> I'm surprised that Armok isn't on the Wiki
15:40:04 <Roujo> https://github.com/Frib/Armok
15:40:23 <ais523> actually, I think the Deewiant era is where fungot came from
15:40:23 <fungot> ais523: as long as you keep crono in your heart, the day of lavos"... go to " leene square" 1000 a.d.? yes, i'd have done something very brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope.
15:40:32 <ais523> oh, must be set to chrono trigger mode
15:41:30 <boily> ais523: but fungot is fizzie's!
15:41:31 <fungot> boily: but, we are far outnumbered! princess! i see you're dressing...normally again! chaos confuses you into attacking allies! a little tough on friendships! blind you can't see too well, ho!! see ya around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca
15:41:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:41:52 <ais523> Bike: yeah, fizzie was using the improvements in Funge-98 interpreter design to test out fungot on
15:41:52 <fungot> ais523: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono!
15:41:59 <Deewiant> At least I dimly remember fungot appearing at some point
15:42:57 <ais523> well fungot had to be created at some point in time
15:42:57 <fungot> ais523: yes, it's been awhile prometheus!
15:43:05 <ais523> it hasn't just existed forever
15:43:08 <ais523> (also, relevant answer, neat)
15:43:24 <Deewiant> It could have been here before me, in which case I wouldn't remember its appearance
15:43:42 <Deewiant> (Or after, but I haven't left yet and it's already here.)
15:45:47 <fizzie> ais523: Perhaps some kind of a stable time loop.
15:46:18 <fizzie> ais523: In 2047, I'll use HackEgo's `send-to-the-past command to send it back to whenever it was it appeared.
15:46:34 <ais523> fizzie: you're getting /very/ close to Feather territory there…
15:46:54 <fizzie> Also in 2047: EgoBot still won't be merged in HackEgo.
15:47:02 <ais523> Gregor: why did I get five contradictory responses to /ctcp version?
15:47:04 <Deewiant> No need for an unimplemented HackEgo feature, we already have TRDS
15:47:05 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
15:47:24 <HackEgo> df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory \ Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ - 0 0 0 - /
15:47:32 <boily> in 2047, Hong Kong will be merged into China.
15:48:14 <Gregor> ais523: They don't ALL contradict.
15:48:32 <ais523> even the xchat ones all give different processor speeds
15:48:40 <ais523> also, it turned out not to be called Windows 9 after all
15:49:30 <fizzie> xchat's "processor speed in ctcp version" thing is kind of silly.
15:50:12 <fizzie> (They could just put the vpenis.sh output in it directly.)
15:51:17 <Gregor> find /proc -type f -exec cat {} ';'
15:51:55 <ais523> are there any -type f in /proc?
15:51:58 <ais523> also you forgot the `run
15:52:14 <Gregor> Since that wasn't intended for HackEgo.
15:52:20 <Gregor> It was a suggestion of how to make a CTCP VERSION line.
15:52:37 <Gregor> Also, of course, most of /proc is files.
15:52:47 <ais523> yeah, but I thought none of it was regular files
15:52:57 <ais523> I guess it might be full of irregular files pretending to be regular files
15:57:08 <boily> @tell asiekierka lumps and bumps and sections and stuff.
16:01:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27727
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16:06:32 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
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16:09:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: does Dwarf Fortress even allow you to craft items out of lava?
16:09:51 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
16:14:14 <Jafet> It allows you to direct dwarves to craft items out of former lava.
16:16:06 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
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16:20:24 <doesthiswork> so I've reading about skousen's analogical modeling, and I think it would be a fun logic language. You could tell it 2+2=4, 3+3=6 and 3+2=5 so when you asked it what 2+3 equals half the time it would say 4 and half the time 6
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16:24:22 <ais523> it just looks for the closest match and randomizes between them?
16:25:56 <doesthiswork> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogical_Modeling
16:26:54 <doesthiswork> it finds the set of generalized matches that minimizes internal dissagreement
16:30:32 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:31:39 <doesthiswork> there are a couple other algorithms that do about the same thing, but they are used for modeling how people generalize a set of examples to categorize new instances.
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16:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: does Dwarf Fortress even allow you to craft items out of lava?
16:35:00 <Phantom_Hoover> it does let you pour it on nobles making unreasonable demands
16:39:27 <ais523> is that your preferred method of disposing of them?
16:39:32 <Taneb> And you can cool lava and make obsidian items
16:41:50 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, although admittedly i never actually implemented it
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16:44:55 <ais523> I thought it was more common to drown them, or create rooms that they would fall out of
16:45:08 <ais523> incidentally, is it possible to exile dwarves, rather than just killing them?
16:45:14 <ais523> locking them out of the fortress, or the like?
16:46:07 -!- aloril has joined.
16:46:19 <Phantom_Hoover> if they're alive, and their mandates aren't met, they'll still be able to issue random punishments
16:47:02 <ais523> and people will actually pay attention to them?
16:47:12 <ais523> this seems unrealistic
16:50:21 <Roujo> Well. It *is* pretty realistic at times.
16:50:59 <Roujo> And yet dwarves will go outside, one after the other, in the middle of a siege, just to try and get that wool sock that's lying aroud
16:53:44 <Roujo> Do you guys know about the Armok programming language?
16:55:01 <Phantom_Hoover> <ais523> and people will actually pay attention to them?
16:55:38 -!- S1 has joined.
16:55:42 <Phantom_Hoover> so actually you can completely neuter them just by not establishing one, but that has other disadvantages
16:58:54 <Roujo> myname: https://github.com/Frib/Armok
16:59:25 <Roujo> No nobles yet, but still =P
17:01:17 <Koen> dwarves handle rocks... you can get rocks by mining... that makes me wondering, is that a zero-sum programming language?
17:01:45 <Koen> as in the only way to increment a variable is to decrement another, or something
17:02:05 <myname> mining creates 64 rocks from one block
17:02:09 <Koen> and do we have other zero-sum esolangs?
17:02:31 <myname> that would indeed be interesting
17:02:59 <Roujo> Call it Equilibrium or something
17:03:03 <Koen> to be original, imagine the following brainfuck-derivative
17:03:40 <Koen> there's an unbounded tape of -128 to +127 non-wrapping cells, all starting at zero
17:04:07 <Koen> and hmmm there's a toggle which can be PLUS or MINUS
17:04:18 <Koen> and when it's at plus, the - instruction is a no-op
17:04:27 <Koen> and when it's at minus, the + instruction is a no-op
17:04:42 <myname> you could say, + in your language is like +>-< in BF
17:04:44 <Koen> and instructions are the same as in brainfuck except every usage of + or - toggles the toggle
17:04:50 <myname> there you have zero-sum
17:05:02 <Koen> hmmm yeah I'm afraid
17:05:16 <Koen> okay it's not so interesting then
17:05:22 <Roujo> Koen's version sounds a lot more impractical
17:05:34 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:06:01 -!- augur has joined.
17:06:37 <Koen> Roujo: yeah but you could convert any brainfuck program into this derivative by replacing + with +>-<, - with ->+<, > with >> and < with <<
17:06:48 <Koen> (except for the non-wrapping thing)
17:07:21 <Koen> so that's boring
17:07:37 <Koen> okay what about:
17:07:40 <Roujo> Just make it so that odd cells can only be incremented
17:07:43 <Koen> every cell starts as 1
17:07:50 <Roujo> And even cells can only be incremented
17:07:53 <Koen> and cells can only be positive
17:08:03 <Roujo> even cells can only be decremented
17:08:22 -!- lambdabot has joined.
17:08:28 <Koen> therefore you can't double every cell with its negative
17:08:37 <Koen> (because there are no negatives)
17:08:58 <Roujo> Everytime you increment a cell, a random sector of your HD is decremented
17:09:15 <Koen> okay you could start with an initialization loop that fills a lot of cells with +128 but that would be reaaaaaally impractical
17:09:36 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:10:01 <Roujo> "Note: This interpreter must be run as root. Don't ask why. Just let it be."
17:10:19 <myname> write directly to /dev/sda
17:10:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:10:34 <myname> make it default on suicide linux
17:13:36 <ais523> it's hard to make a BF deriv that a) isn't stupid, and b) you can't trivially compile BF into
17:13:41 <ais523> although not impossible
17:15:48 <Koen> ais523: well, replacing the tape with a single tape makes it equivalent to push-down automata, and therefore you can't compile bf into it
17:15:56 <Koen> with a single stack
17:16:07 <Roujo> What if you replace the tape with a punch-card
17:16:25 <ais523> but that's not that interesting either IMO
17:16:33 <ais523> I guess a Splinter→BF-PDA compiler could be interesting
17:16:50 <Koen> if it's not interesting why does it have three or more pages on the wiki?
17:16:55 <Koen> brainstack, stackfuck, etc
17:17:41 <myname> brainqueue would be much more interesting
17:21:34 <ais523> <Koen> if it's not interesting why does it have three or more pages on the wiki? ← because BF derivative
17:23:25 <Koen> ha I like the BF-PDA page
17:23:34 <Koen> "possible modifications"
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17:24:00 <Koen> aka "this is brainfuck with a stack, you got the general idea, do whatever you want with the details"
17:24:02 <Roujo> ais523: What's with the BF-derivative hate? =P
17:24:20 <HackEgo> 2011-11-09.txt:06:33:57: <elliott> And delegate the brickbraining to me.
17:24:22 <Koen> I think it's more like BF-derivative sadness
17:24:44 <ais523> basically we'd like the esolangs to be more interesting than yet more pointless derivations of BF
17:24:56 <ais523> there are some good ones (PaintFuck is a good one I didn't write)
17:25:00 <ais523> but plenty more stupid ones
17:25:27 <Roujo> Ah, so it's a matter of them being unoriginal, then?
17:26:26 <Taneb> Roujo, phantom-hoover.tumblr.com
17:26:30 <Koen> "there are some good ones, and also one good one I didn't write"
17:27:59 <ais523> Koen: there's more than one good one I didn't write
17:28:08 <ais523> but I thought that would be an amusing way to word the sentence
17:28:27 <Koen> be reassured I was amused
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17:31:14 <Roujo> >It replaces part of boolfuck with words such as “derp” and “herp”
17:31:51 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kPRA0W1kECg
17:33:54 <Roujo> Phantom_Hoover: Quick sort is amazing
17:34:32 <Roujo> Merge sort sounds like good old computer sounds you hear in movies
17:35:18 <Roujo> Holy crap radix sort
17:39:08 <Roujo> What if we just sorted the actual bits?
17:39:19 <Roujo> Would it be quicker?
17:39:45 <Roujo> (Nevermind, that was a bad joke)
17:40:26 <Phantom_Hoover> well basically it's a question of working out how many 1's there are in the input
17:40:58 <Jafet> It's more efficient to count the 0 bits
17:41:30 <Roujo> Why would it be more efficient? =P
17:42:20 -!- Bike has joined.
17:43:29 <Roujo> I have no idea what Bitonic sort is doing
17:44:17 <Roujo> Awwww, they didn't let it finish D:
17:44:58 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:48:05 <Roujo> It's not the worst algorithm I've heard of, though =P
17:48:17 <Roujo> There's also Intelligent Design Sort
17:48:46 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:48:53 <boily> I don't know who crystal-cola is, but I like them. proper LaTeX in their replies.
17:49:06 <Roujo> Oh, there we go: Miracle Sort
17:50:48 <Roujo> Intelligent Design Sort: The probability that the input list would be in the order it's in is 1/(n!). That probability is so small that the list *must* be that way for a reason. To try to sort the list further shows ignorance of the Sorter's ways.
17:51:57 <boily> @tell NihilistDandy can I extract some kind of biography from your person, so that you may be paraquoted?
17:55:37 -!- Bike has joined.
17:57:38 <fizzie> "New in version 3.2" "3.1.3-12+squeeze1" oh no
18:05:57 <boily> copumpkin: who are you? where do you come from? are you a living entity? what is the effect of capitalism on the growth of birch trees?
18:07:45 <Bike> i'd say that effect is rather uneven
18:09:25 <boily> who knows. maybe there's a correlation between the two! (r² < 0.01)
18:11:41 <Bike> r squared of negative zero
18:16:49 <boily> why did I /nicked myself groily...
18:17:00 <Roujo> I didn't see anything
18:17:12 <Roujo> It's been a while, really
18:17:28 <boily> there is some weird stuff going on in the disparate quotes...
18:23:43 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:30:55 <Roujo> Huh, sleepsort. Sounds nice enough.
18:31:43 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:33:23 <Koen> insertion sort looks like it's using dichotomy to find where to insert the elements
18:33:31 <Koen> is that a thing? dichotomy insertion sort
18:34:29 <zzo38> I have used insertion sort mainly when the data to sort isn't all available at once, it can do one at a time, sorting it into another buffer
18:34:46 <zzo38> I don't know about dichotomy insertion sort, though.
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18:37:15 <fizzie> Koen: I don't know what a "dichotomy" means in that context, but if you mean it determines the insertion position with a binary search (over the already-sorted part), I think that's called "binary insertion sort".
18:37:48 <Koen> though such an insertion in an array sounds kinda dumb since you have to move everything anyway
18:38:05 <Roujo> Use a linked list! =D
18:38:08 <Koen> and cutting a list in half usually isn't O(1) either
18:38:13 <Roujo> Doubly linked, too!
18:38:35 <Koen> so I guess you'd need some kind of tree structure for that to be efficient
18:38:37 <Bike> quintuply linked is the way to go
18:38:49 <Koen> so it sounds like we just reinvented heap sort
18:38:49 <Roujo> Finding the spot to insert it in would be O(n), actually putting it in would be O(1)
18:38:57 <fizzie> Koen: It can be a good idea if the comparisons are expensive but swaps are not. (List of pointers to long strings or whatever.)
18:39:06 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-conditions.html#conditions these are pretty weird
18:39:10 <Koen> Roujo: O(n) dichotomy doesn't sound very useful
18:39:21 <kmc> they're like... dynamically bound delimited continuations? i don't even know
18:39:23 <Roujo> Oh, wait, you're doing a binary search
18:39:41 <Koen> fizzie: hmm I guess that makes sense
18:40:05 <Bike> kmc: cool, it's like CL's.
18:40:31 <kmc> CL has this?
18:40:42 <kmc> does it work well?
18:41:11 <Koen> A successfully trapped condition causes execution to continue at the site of the error, as though no error occurred.
18:41:40 <Bike> basically when you "handle" a condition you install a type-function pair in the dynamic environment, and then when an error happens it looks through the dynamic environment to find a pair with the type of the error
18:41:57 <Koen> so you can make a code that has "x / y" somewhere in it, and wrap it in a "try ... with Division_by_zero -> 3" and if y = 0 it will act as if x / y = 3 ?
18:42:04 <Roujo> "on error resume;"
18:42:07 <Bike> it's really very useful, like for example, when i had an irc bot it would raise an "i don't understand this type of message" condition
18:42:20 <Bike> and in my code i just had it handle that as ignore and continue and it worked great
18:42:20 <boily> I think all the quotes from anybody ever are currently covered.
18:42:33 <Roujo> "throw new IDontEvenException("wat");"
18:42:34 <Bike> using an external irc library i didn't want to mess with, i mean
18:42:53 <Roujo> boily: Congrats! =)
18:43:02 <Bike> Koen: i think so.
18:43:14 <elliott> conditions freak me out a bit
18:43:17 <elliott> they feel a little spaghetti
18:43:29 <Bike> yeah they're easy to fuck up probably
18:43:29 <Koen> "it's really very useful, like for example, when the key doesn't go in the lock I just have to force and it works great"
18:43:30 <elliott> also they kinda break RT :P
18:43:44 <Bike> thank goodness rust has like nine types of error handling apparently
18:44:17 <kmc> Bike: just like haskell! i feel so at home
18:44:28 <elliott> because (x / 0) is _|_ but then it's also 123 or 346534563456536 instead depending on the surrounding context
18:44:36 <elliott> well, I guess you could just separate asynchronous exceptions out as a separate concern.
18:45:00 <Koen> (btw is it me or did they drastically reduce the number of elements to sort when showing off particularly inefficient sorts?)
18:45:08 <Bike> CL: (handler-case (/ 4 3) (division-by-zero () 3)) => 4/3, (handler-case (/ 4 0) (division-by-zero () 3)) => 3
18:45:13 <kmc> i should probably learn how to use delimited continuations one day
18:45:37 <elliott> kmc: have you used Cont? :P
18:45:44 <kmc> in Haskell? yes
18:46:13 <Bike> have you used Cont in Rust!
18:46:19 -!- mnoqy has joined.
18:46:20 <Bike> that's rust-factorial
18:46:39 <Bike> exponentially rustier for the hands-on ninja developer.
18:46:49 <elliott> kmc: well, delimited continuations are just Cont, pretty much.
18:46:55 <Koen> gnome sorts looks like it's trying to do insertion sort but the insertion is very approximative
18:47:14 <kmc> elliott: this is my skeptical face
18:47:25 <Bike> haskell is the mother of all, kmc.
18:47:37 <elliott> A sample shift/reset code in Haskell, in the Cont monad -- the monad for delimited control
18:47:38 <kmc> bubble-insertion sort
18:47:47 <elliott> reset :: Cont a a -> Cont w a
18:47:47 <elliott> shift :: ((a -> w) -> Cont w w) -> Cont w a
18:48:00 <elliott> I don't have an Oleg face but I'd be using it if I did
18:48:09 <boily> Roujo: just had to merge some stuff and do minor corrections. please check the new PDF.
18:48:11 <Koen> bitonic sort: merge sort except the merging part reshuffles the list
18:48:27 <kmc> dymaxion sort
18:48:28 <boily> wasn't there something on page 34 with a tilde being incorrectly parsed?
18:48:32 <ais523> oh, bitonic sort is awesome
18:48:33 <Roujo> `run fetch https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
18:48:35 <HackEgo> bash: fetch: command not found
18:48:41 <Roujo> `fetch https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
18:48:41 <ais523> it's one of the most parallelizable of sorting algorithms
18:48:46 <HackEgo> 2013-09-19 18:48:45 URL:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf [476823/476823] -> "wisdom.pdf" [1]
18:48:53 <HackEgo> %PDF-1.5 \ % \ 2 0 obj << \ /Type /ObjStm \ /N 100 \ /First 798 \ /Length 1046 \ /Filter /FlateDecode \ >> \ stream \ xڅmo6SD.Euiv
18:49:03 <Roujo> boily: Looks like garbage. hth.
18:49:05 <ais523> and it's pretty similar to mergesort in how it works
18:49:20 <Koen> awwwwwwwwwww bogosort
18:49:29 <Phantom_Hoover> wp just gives us this helpful diagram http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/BitonicSort1.svg
18:49:33 * boily slaps Roujo with a slightly damp soviet-era sorting algorithm
18:52:22 <fizzie> Bike: "While the jth record is being processed during a straight insertion sort, we compare its key with about j/2 of the previously sorted keys, on the average; -- [We can use a binary search.] This method is called /binary insertion/; it was mentioned by John Mauchly as early as 1964, in the first published discussion of computer sorting. The unfortunate difficulty with binary insertion is ...
18:52:28 <fizzie> ... that it solves only half of the problem; after we have found where record R_j is to be inserted, we still need to move about (1/2)j of the previously sorted records in order to make room for R_j, so the total running time is still essentially proportional to N^2." -- D. Knuth, /The Art of Computer Programming, Vol. 3, Sorting and Searching/. Second Edition, Addison-Wesley, 1998, chapter ...
18:53:21 <fizzie> The comment was so long that I couldn't see the attribution line any more. (Don't know where the Bike came from.)
18:55:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
18:55:24 <Koen> but then does he uses that to think "okay, we need a data structure that allows dichotomy search, but also has O(1) insertion?
18:55:41 <Koen> and come up with some tree sort or something
18:55:57 <zzo38> boily: This PDF won't load in my computer; do you have another file?
18:57:38 <oerjan> Roujo: the curse of zzo38's setup
18:58:19 <fizzie> Koen: No. After describing the two-way insertion sort (another trick), it continues with shellsort and other things.
18:58:51 <zzo38> Do you have a file other than PDF?
18:58:53 <Koen> ohhhhhhhh silly me I thought "shellsort" stood for "the sort command in the shell"
18:59:19 <boily> zzo38: how come? what's happening?
18:59:34 <boily> it opens with okular.
18:59:41 <fizzie> The other day, I generated a PDF file locally and tried to submit it to IEEE. and got a "this file could not be converted to PDF" error back.
18:59:46 <Roujo> zzo38: There's the original LaTeX file, if you want it
18:59:48 <oerjan> boily: i recommend sending him a dvi
19:00:07 <fizzie> Turns out the pdfTeX-1.40.13 I have here generates a PDF 1.5 file, while the pdfTeX-1.40.10 sticks to PDF 1.4, and that made all the difference.
19:00:08 <zzo38> The source file will do fine, since I am sure I can load that in any text editor.
19:00:13 <boily> zzo38: I'll send you the dvi, and if you want you can join the github repo.
19:00:22 <zzo38> Yes, a DVI will also work fine.
19:00:50 <fizzie> s/sticks/at work sticks/
19:01:09 <Roujo> "I took the compiler less updated by, and that made all the difference"
19:01:47 <boily> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.dvi
19:02:15 <boily> and if that doesn't work, I can make a PS.
19:04:26 <zzo38> I have downloaded it, now I have to wait for it to load the fonts
19:04:28 -!- S1 has left.
19:04:57 <boily> you guys were very creative with having me put through incongruous latex loops...
19:05:09 <boily> all the horrors I had to commit...
19:05:24 <boily> (at least, there's a \photon{} somewhere.)
19:05:52 -!- S1 has joined.
19:06:02 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
19:06:37 <boily> that one was an easily dodgeable open attempt at trying to make my Glorious Document not compile.
19:06:55 <Roujo> That wasn't the goal, no
19:06:55 <zzo38> Even the DVI doesn't work; dvitype crashed too
19:07:20 <zzo38> So did Yap and DVIOUT
19:08:04 <boily> \ldots{} \ldots{} \ldots{}
19:08:14 <boily> zzo38: just what kind of setup do you have???
19:09:28 <Roujo> <oerjan> Roujo: the curse of zzo38's setup
19:09:46 <Bike> AnotherTest: what do you want to know?
19:09:59 -!- S1 has quit (Client Quit).
19:10:11 <boily> zzo38: what is your github account?
19:10:14 <fizzie> Koen: It does describe quite many variants of insertion sort, including the linked list insertion sort, and the tree-structured arrangement. ("This possibility was first explored about 1957 by D. J. Wheeler -- A similar but simpler tree-insertion scheme, using binary trees, was devised by C. M. Berners-Lee about 1958 -- Since the binary tree method and its refinements are quite important for ...
19:10:20 <fizzie> ... searching as well as sorting, they are discussed at length in Section 6.2.2".) The whole Shapter 5.2.1. ("Sorting by Insertion") is 26 pages long.
19:10:58 <zzo38> boily: I don't have any.
19:11:02 <Koen> the Shah Peter
19:11:07 <fizzie> I wrote "Chapter", then noticed it's called "Section" for references in the text itself, and somehow thought just changing the first letter was sufficient.
19:11:14 <Bike> You have done so.
19:12:43 <boily> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.tar.bz2
19:13:52 <oerjan> C. M. Berners-Lee, any relation to Tim?
19:14:04 -!- Yonkie has joined.
19:15:06 <fizzie> oerjan: His father, I think.
19:15:16 -!- zzo38 has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:15:21 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:15:25 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:15:34 <oerjan> hm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_Berners-Lee has no M
19:15:39 <boily> zzo38: I hope downloading the sources didn't make your machine crash...
19:15:44 <fizzie> oerjan: See the External Links section.
19:16:06 <zzo38> boily: It didn't crash (although I haven't extracted the archive yet).
19:16:12 -!- S1 has joined.
19:16:40 <Koen> heap sort is kinda twisted - we're gonna take the elements from the array to put them in a tree, then take the elements from the tree to put them back in the array - except the tree is stored in the array, so're basically we're completely reorganizing the array into a still-not-sorted-but-with-some-logic-you-cant-see-yet array that will be easier to sort in the future
19:16:51 <fizzie> oerjan: (Well, all the "C. M. Berners-Lee" references. I don't know what the M stands for.)
19:17:20 <zzo38> boily: Most of the files have strange filename and other things probably not needed so I only extracted the *.tex files; those ones will load fine in a text editor.
19:17:32 <S1> Besides... Is there still interest in a programm that's fed with program code and determines the language(s) the code is written in? Cause I've got a concept.
19:18:33 <zzo38> S1: OK, although such thing wouldn't always work
19:18:43 <zzo38> It can work sometimes, though.
19:18:47 <zzo38> It might be worth a try.
19:19:07 <Koen> then you can add it to google translate
19:19:15 <fizzie> "The marriage of Conway M Berners-Lee and Mary L Woods is registered at Hampstead, Middlesex 3rd quarter 1954 vol 5c page 1925 --" it seems a mystery, lots of references but none mentioning the expansion.
19:19:20 <fizzie> I'm sure it's listed *somewhere*.
19:19:21 <Roujo> "Google Code Translate"
19:20:02 <boily> zzo38: you only need the .tex files to compile the stuff. the source/ folder is a local copy of the wisdom DB. README.md is a readme.
19:20:04 <zzo38> Some programming languages can even vary their syntax, such as Forth and TeX
19:20:18 <fizzie> "http://sprunge.us/bXPJ Tim talks of his parents.
19:20:56 <zzo38> boily: Well, yes I have only extracted the *.tex so it is OK, but of course to compile it, I would also need LaTeX and all of the packages and fonts you used. I can just read it in the text editor it is fine, though.
19:21:33 <boily> zzo38: it is a fact.
19:22:04 <Roujo> By now, just `pastequotes? =P
19:22:27 <Roujo> Oh wait, boily added more than just the quotes. Nevermind ^^
19:22:55 <boily> I added EVERYTHING!
19:25:03 <boily> bright green is a little bit to light, imho...
19:25:25 <Roujo> A little bit is lightable enough, isn't it?
19:25:56 <boily> s/to/too/, says I.
19:26:15 <boily> and now I'm stuck with a Supertramp piece in my head.
19:26:34 <boily> (“give a little bit... ♪”)
19:27:13 <boily> woah. the phở uses the right font. I... don't know how it happened.
19:29:31 <zzo38> I think there might be a few duplicates? (Or maybe I am wrong)
19:29:47 <Koen> ais523: in splinter, if a capital letter is followed by '{', then it's the store-to-splinter instruction, and if it's not followed by '{', then it's the push-splinter-to-program instruction?
19:29:48 <zzo38> Should you change "Plain TeX" into "Plain \TeX" to print using the TeX logo?
19:30:50 <S1> Okay then if anyone is still interested in the Esolang identifier concept I made: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/11001067/EsolangIdentifier%20Concept.txt
19:30:54 <ais523> haven't Splintered for ages
19:31:15 <Koen> [insert turtles joke]
19:31:45 <boily> zzo38: the duplicates are a conscious decision. if multiple people locute a quote, then I put it under each relevant section.
19:32:22 <boily> but yeah, I'll \TeXify the references to Plain TeX.
19:32:47 <Roujo> `complain \TeX isn't used-- oh, nevermind
19:32:49 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
19:32:58 <Taneb> `slist Terezi sniffs out a conspiracty
19:33:00 <HackEgo> slist Terezi sniffs out a conspiracty: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
19:33:11 <Koen> S1: how about first trying to identify if keywords are actually words ("if", "while", etc.) or rather single-char ops (like brainfuck) and then moving on to identifying them?
19:34:12 <S1> Koen: for what? ;)
19:34:24 <Koen> well if keywords are actually words then you can split the program into tokens according to whitespace
19:34:29 <Roujo> What does `slist do?
19:34:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:34:39 <Koen> but if you're parsing befunge then every char is a token
19:35:18 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
19:35:42 <zzo38> What happens if you are using \verb! to quote something that contains a exclamation mark?
19:36:39 <S1> Koen: I don't differ between single-char keywords and multi-char keywords. There could be a language someday (or with high probability already is) that does so, too.
19:36:40 <boily> the `? list is dead?
19:36:44 <Taneb> `learn list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
19:36:50 <boily> zzo38: I use \verb+...+.
19:37:19 <S1> Koen: Whitespace has to be detected properly, too. I would not split anything.
19:37:31 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
19:37:43 <Roujo> There we go! Bots can have fun too!
19:37:55 <S1> Koen: And maybe some keywords even overlap... Like for example in a polyglot
19:38:14 <boily> zzo38: I'm having some problems with overfull hboxen, but nothing impossible to resolve.
19:38:21 <Koen> S1: well I can think of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Alight which is especially weird to parse
19:38:21 <Taneb> "hello world" is a perfectly valid brainfuck program
19:38:41 <zzo38> boily: Well, I know how I can fix these things in Plain TeX, not in LaTeX though
19:39:20 <AnotherTest> I think it's generally impossible to do perfect language detection, due to polyglots. Unless it reported all of the languages of course.
19:39:55 <zzo38> AnotherTest: Yes, that is one reason; there are also programming languages with varying syntax, programming languages that accept any input file, and other things.
19:40:05 <Koen> Taneb: "your mama" is a perfectly valid brainfuck program
19:40:35 <Koen> btw this is my first your mama joke ever
19:40:53 <boily> Koen: “Taneb: "your mama" is a perfectly valid brainfuck program” is a perfectly valid reason to make you choke on a ballistic bowl of gaszszszpascho.
19:41:03 <zzo38> Yes, any file without unbalanced square brackets is a valid brainfuck program.
19:41:20 <Taneb> zzo38, any text file, at least
19:42:03 <Koen> what if the program is in emmental or mascarpone and the syntax evolves to have bits in every language in the wiki
19:43:16 <S1> Koen: uh shit... well I hope that 1) there are at least some keywords in that language written horizontal. 2) the programmer is intelligent enough to recognize a 2D language -_-
19:43:35 <Koen> I hadn't thought about option 2
19:43:55 <oerjan> <boily> I don't know who crystal-cola is, but I like them. proper LaTeX in their replies.
19:44:07 <oerjan> crystal-cola has gone by many nicks.
19:44:51 * boily swears in Québécois
19:45:01 <boily> oerjan: who are they, then?
19:45:30 <oerjan> a mystery. not here at present. last time was as katla.
19:46:04 <oerjan> the unusual thing about last time is that e _didn't_ explode violently before leaving afair.
19:46:07 <Taneb> boily, that's like wiping your arse with a silk hangman's rope
19:46:46 <zzo38> Did you look at the recent CGA Collection? Do you like to write a review of it that fits in one line of the wisdom file?
19:47:15 <boily> ~duck CGA Collection
19:47:28 <oerjan> boily: j-invariant is probably also in the quotes file.
19:47:39 <boily> zzo38: what is the CGA Collection?
19:48:02 <zzo38> boily: It is a collection of public domain computer games for DOS computers.
19:48:05 <boily> oerjan: I... think I saw some of their quotes in there. peek at the last section ↑
19:48:20 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP You can download the source-codes, executables, and documentation.
19:49:24 <boily> oerjan: let me guess. j-invariant is someone else.
19:49:37 <boily> zzo38: perusing that in a few minutes... I'm reformatting Taneb.
19:52:44 <zzo38> This ZIP file will fit on a single 3.5" floppy disk.
19:53:12 <kmc> zzo38: does it need to be double density?
19:53:57 <boily> Taneb: you are all nice and shiny, now.
19:54:00 <zzo38> kmc: I haven't checked, but a 1.44MB high density disk works.
19:54:13 <boily> zzo38: does it work in qemu?
19:54:57 <boily> (or probably dosbox)
19:55:05 <zzo38> boily: I have not tried, but if it has DOS then I expect it to work.
19:55:25 <oerjan> <AnotherTest> try to do it with snowflake! <-- itym emmental
19:55:40 <Taneb> `quote fall in love
19:55:41 <HackEgo> 558) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love \ 578) <HackEgo> 678) <Ngevd> Dammit, Gregor, this is not the time to fall in love <HackEgo> 187) <alise> Gregor: You should never have got her pregnant. <Gregor> what whaaaaaaaaaaaat
19:55:53 <Taneb> I can remember the context for that!
19:56:38 <oerjan> boily: j-invariant = crystal-cola
19:56:39 <Taneb> Roujo, I named all my Pokemon after people in the channel
19:56:56 <Taneb> An opponent used "attract" on the one named for Gregor
19:57:19 <zzo38> boily: OK. Do you like this?
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19:57:59 <boily> I can play sokoban!
19:58:07 <zzo38> Tell me if you made up any new levels for any of these games, too. Or even, to make up new games in QBASIC to add onto this CGA Collection!
19:59:28 <boily> THERE IS SOUND! ☺♪
19:59:29 <zzo38> There are two games mentioned in the documentation but which aren't yet completed enough to include in this CGA Collection; eventually it will be, though.
20:00:36 <zzo38> Yes, I wrote the music for these games using the MML.
20:01:30 -!- augur has joined.
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20:01:48 <zzo38> The music for the "SKEDALS" game is in Bohlen-Pierce, though. Most of them use ordinary 12-TET, however.
20:04:21 <zzo38> boily: Do you liket he other game too? Which ones did you try so far?
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20:06:07 <boily> zzo38: well, I can't really try them right now, as I'm at work.
20:06:30 <boily> (yes, the PDF is part of my work. it's a periodic pause.)
20:06:35 <zzo38> boily: OK, try later perhaps, or someone try
20:06:53 <boily> the files are there, tempting me with their sexy lo-res bits.
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20:17:04 <kmc> pixellization fetish
20:18:33 <boily> kmc: I'm a japanophile. what else did you expect?
20:19:02 <zzo38> So can you play Japanese mahjong then?
20:19:14 <Roujo> `run cat japan >> boily
20:19:21 <Roujo> He plays Shogi, so yes?
20:19:26 <Koen> 45-lines ocaml splinter interpreter working
20:19:46 <boily> zzo38: I'm in a japanese mahjong club. we play every two Sundays.
20:19:54 <kmc> do androids dream of the fisherman's wife
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20:20:20 <Koen> task for next week: splinter to bf-pda
20:20:30 <boily> Roujo: come play mahjong with us :D
20:20:44 <zzo38> Can you play Washizu mahjong?
20:21:10 <zzo38> What rule variants do you use when playing mahjong?
20:21:29 <Roujo> Not-Solitaire Mahjong
20:21:42 <Roujo> Please forgive my mindblank >_>
20:22:06 <boily> zzo38: I played classic chinese at first, but now I exclusively play riichi. some members play hong kong (I should learn the rules some time).
20:22:36 <boily> zzo38: concerning variations in a single style, we don't apply kuitan nashi, we use kuikae, and sometimes play with yakitori. we never use uma, though.
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20:22:50 <Roujo> boily: We never even met yet. Mahjong might be a little too... forward?
20:23:06 <Roujo> Come by my apartment on Saturday and we'll talk about it
20:23:10 <boily> Roujo: enwéye don, viens faire un tour! on mord pas! (la plupart du temps)
20:23:34 <zzo38> I don't like kuitan nashi either; I play kuitan ari, but don't use yakitori
20:24:01 <boily> kuitan nashi is for... uhm... Roujo, how would you translate «moumoune» in English?
20:24:04 <kmc> isn't yakitori a way of cooking chicken
20:24:28 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, but in mahjong it is penalty for someone who never wins a single hand during the game
20:24:32 <boily> zzo38: yakitori is rough on the nerves. it makes the game very stressful.
20:25:05 <boily> zzo38: uhm, if I may correct you, yakitori is a game of chicken where you have to declare riichi at least once during East and South.
20:25:32 <boily> (and if all four players have called riichi, it resets)
20:25:48 <zzo38> boily: That is a different kind of yakitori game then
20:26:00 <boily> zzo38: let me check, just to be sure...
20:26:04 <zzo38> boily: What happen in case of no-ten riichi?
20:26:41 <zzo38> I have made up a few variants, though, even. One is that menzenchintsumo counts 1 han toward the requirement for winning but it doesn't score 1 han; another is that ippatsu doesn't count for self-drawn.
20:26:50 <boily> zzo38: ah. wikipédia points to your yakitori.
20:27:24 <boily> zzo38: in no-ten riichi, you hope somebody else wins. if you get to an exhaustive hand, you *have* to show your hand, and then it's chombo.
20:28:07 <zzo38> Yes, I know it is chombo, but does it cancel the yakitori counter in your kind of yakitori game when that happens?
20:28:24 <Roujo> I can't tell if you guys are pulling a Mornington Crescent or not
20:28:35 <boily> zzo38: menzen tsumo is just like any other yaku. ippatsu on a tsumo is just dramatic and fun :D (did it last sunday. it was completely undeserved, made me score a haneman as oya. it was grandiose!)
20:28:50 <kmc> Roujo: me either
20:28:55 <boily> zzo38: eeeeeeeeeh... we never had that scenario happen.
20:29:06 <kmc> also that is a perfect way to describe the sense of confusion
20:29:07 <boily> Roujo: honestly, everything you see here is real mahjong.
20:29:16 <kmc> zzo38: do you ever play Mornington Crescent?
20:29:35 <zzo38> kmc: No, but I do have a map of the London Underground.
20:29:36 <Roujo> I play Berri-UQAM with my SO, if that counts
20:29:53 <boily> zzo38: I'll have to ask our expert player next time. that point is very interesting.
20:30:54 <Roujo> Especially with the Special AMT Extension rules
20:32:32 <boily> zzo38: my favourite yaku combo is the Infamous Men Tan Pin (tsumo, tan'yao, pinfu), nicknamed the «Anyway en tout cas bin là» here (quote mash-up from a bad movie).
20:33:11 <boily> zzo38: plug in a riichi, pile up the dora, and get a ludicrous amount of points from your disgruntled opponents.
20:34:07 <boily> Roujo: is the Montmorency/Cartier transition valid, or do you stop at Concorde when doing a double-lateral?
20:34:30 <zzo38> Other things I eliminate are the "all green", and the bonuses for first-turn stuff. I also allow players to declare riichi even if your score is negative.
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20:35:47 <oerjan> <Roujo> I can't tell if you guys are pulling a Mornington Crescent or not <-- zzo38 is the last person in the channel i'd suspect of doing that.
20:35:54 <boily> zzo38: all green is epic. a girl did that with suankō during a tournament, while oya. 96000 points.
20:36:17 <boily> zzo38: also, when a player is bankrupt, it ends the game. if you don't have at least a thousand left, no riichi.
20:36:41 <boily> zzo38: my bro actively tries to achieve tenhō. hasn't worked yet :P
20:36:46 <zzo38> boily: You are playing dobon, then.
20:36:58 <zzo38> boily: And how can you actively try to achieve tenhou?
20:37:05 <boily> zzo38: yup. I did that last Sunday on a chombo :D
20:37:17 <boily> (I was furiten, and called ron.)
20:37:45 <boily> Roujo: comment t'avais fait la dernière fois pour réussir à faire que le Pouti s'en vienne sur le channel?
20:38:26 <zzo38> I just play that when calling ron when furiten or otherwise an invalid win, you have to expose your tiles but then you can put them back up and the game continues normally. If you make incorrect calls too often then you may be disqualified (except for no-ten riichi)
20:39:56 <boily> in games between regular members, it's chombo, and that's it. it seems harsh at first, but nobody really minds.
20:40:08 <boily> when playing with my friends from Québec City, it's much more lenient.
20:40:19 <boily> (and when alcohol is involved, screw penalties.)
20:41:33 <zzo38> To simplify it a bit, I also ignore the fu, and just treat it as always 25 fu, so that there is no rounding (some players use 30 fu, but this results in rounding); this also results pinfu slightly different, more like the "All Chow Game" in the Singapore game
20:42:13 <zzo38> To me the rounding is considered a bit unfair.
20:42:22 <Roujo> boily: Je lui ai demandé de se pointer sur FB? =P
20:42:49 <Roujo> boily: Also, yeah, Montmorency/Cartier is alright, it's just... weird. I've never seen it work. >_>
20:42:55 <boily> the most common hands lie on the 30 fu line, so you get to know the points by heart. otherwise, it's 40 fu. very rarely you get an interesting hand at 50.
20:43:08 <Roujo> But yeah, it's legal
20:44:31 <boily> Roujo: it works in weird tournament matches between 3 players, but only if the Drapeau handicap is applied to an out-of-town visitor. I think they changed the limits to Longueuil in 2006 for that, otherwise there were too many corner cases left.
20:44:38 <zzo38> boily: Yes, OK, but I do use many variations of the rules, like I have said; it is the game I prefer anyways
20:44:56 <boily> zzo38: do you plan to visit Montréal in the foreseeable future?
20:45:16 <zzo38> boily: No, I currently have no such plan.
20:46:31 <boily> that means I'll have to cross the Great Puddle some day if I want to match you.
20:47:13 <zzo38> Maybe I will go over there in some day, but I don't expect so.
20:48:21 <boily> we could meet in the middle.
20:48:26 <Roujo> boily: Ah, I wouldn't know. My SO is the only one I play with =/
20:48:55 <zzo38> I still prefer the Japanese game over the other mahjong games, though!
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20:49:06 <zzo38> boily: Do you sometimes play Washizu mahjong?
20:49:30 <boily> zzo38: no. I am subject to vasovagal responses when my blood is involved.
20:49:49 <zzo38> You can play without your blood if you want to, as long as you have some way to keep track of hit points
20:50:48 <Roujo> boily: I have a friend like that.
20:50:55 <Roujo> Well, blood in general, really
20:51:20 <Roujo> [16:48:21] <boily> we could meet in the middle.
20:51:25 <Roujo> Tell me how that goes
20:51:33 <boily> other's people blood I have no problem with. I just really prefer that mine stays inside my body, thank you very much.
20:51:38 <zzo38> The "Akagi DS" game includes a mode for Washizu mahjong and I play that game.
20:51:53 <boily> I wonder if there is mahjong yet on the Ouya...
20:53:16 <zzo38> You are allowed to look at your partner's tiles, and communication with them freely, and oka and uma does count.
20:53:37 <boily> Roujo: there was that collecte organised by héma-québec at the cégep one time. I went by and was like: “Hey, I should try that. I got two hours to kill”. bad idea.
20:53:40 <zzo38> (The uma really does add another aspect to Washizu mahjong.)
20:53:56 <Roujo> boily: Did you die? D:
20:54:08 <boily> Roujo: it felt like dying, but I don't think so.
20:54:55 <boily> Roujo: I was fine up to the point where I was pierced and plugged to the machine. a few seconds later, reboot.
20:55:12 <zzo38> Usually the leaders are in first and second place, but I have once won with Washizu in last place, giving me a lot of uma bonus.
20:55:28 <oerjan> boily: what's the Great Puddle?
20:55:29 <boily> you wake up shaking, shivering, sweating, your hands are prickly, you are hungry, you are nauseous, you want to pee...
20:55:35 <boily> oerjan: the Atlantic Ocean.
20:55:42 <Roujo> oerjan: the Authentic Ocean
20:55:55 <boily> zzo38: uma is nasty and perverse :p
20:56:35 <zzo38> boily: In an ordinary game with four players playing by themself, yes, but in Washizu mahjong with the team format it uses, I like it.
20:57:37 <boily> Roujo: also, my blood pressure was unstable, and my heart was beating some eldritch morse message.
20:57:53 <oerjan> boily: i think you will find that zzo38s in the mirror are closer than they appear.
20:58:10 <oerjan> in fact, you should know that already, having read the quotes
20:58:23 <Roujo> boily: Sounds like a party to me
20:58:36 <zzo38> boily: Are you good at morse code?
20:58:48 <boily> oerjan: right. I just assume that people are in Hexham by default, and forgot that zzo38 is from BC.
20:58:56 <boily> zzo38: sorry about that.
20:59:04 <boily> zzo38: uhm, somewhat.
21:00:06 <boily> Roujo: maybe I should become a Super Serial Killer, with my secret weakness being my own blood.
21:01:04 <Roujo> boily: zzo38's user page on Wikipedia would tell you that much
21:01:04 <oerjan> .... .- ... - ..- .-. .... .- ... - ..- .-. .... .- ... - ..- .-.
21:01:07 <Roujo> And much, much more
21:01:54 <zzo38> In the Akagi DS game, after each hanchan, oka and uma are counted, and then you compare the final scores of the leader of both teams; however has less, loses however many hit-points is the differences.
21:01:57 <boily> oerjan: nice try :p
21:02:45 <zzo38> (The scores of the supporters are not used, except to calculate oka and uma.)
21:03:50 <zzo38> Any time during the game that one leader pays the other, the payer also loses that number of hit-points, too.
21:05:23 <zzo38> Winning off of the last card seems to be much more common in Washizu mahjong, than in the ordinary game.
21:06:27 <kmc> zzo38: what kind of map of the Underground do you have, and what do you use it for?
21:07:03 <zzo38> kmc: Currently, I do not use it for anything. Someone who was there had it when coming back to Canada, and since he didn't need it anymore he gave it to me.
21:07:50 <boily> zzo38: I can't remember any occurence of haitei happening in any game I played.
21:08:28 <zzo38> boily: Except in Washizu mahjong, it hasn't happened to me either.
21:10:35 <kmc> makes sense
21:10:58 <kmc> zzo38: it's a nice map, don't you think
21:11:31 <kmc> too bad the Circle line isn't a circle anymore :(
21:12:25 <kmc> also it stops at Edgware Road twice, which is confusing
21:12:48 <kmc> there are two stations named Edgware Road and the Circle Line stops at one of them twice and the other not at all
21:13:14 <fizzie> We're getting the "drop [as in, raindrop] line", it has this shape: http://portal.liikennevirasto.fi/portal/page/portal/f/hankkeet/suunnitteilla/pisara/pisara_kartta_0.jpg
21:13:31 <kmc> oh well, the NYC subway system has like 50 station names that are reused
21:13:48 <kmc> fizzie: heh
21:14:33 <fizzie> Apparently it's just called "Helsinki City Rail Loop" in English, but the Finnish name refers to a teardrop shape.
21:14:42 <zzo38> I think ippatsu is usually played to not count toward the han requirement to win (in Akagi DS it is like this); I prefer that it does count, unless the discarder is on the same team in which case it still scores but doesn't count toward requirement.
21:16:11 <kmc> running the commuter trains in a loop through the city center, to free up capacity at the main terminal for long distance trains
21:16:23 <boily> zzo38: ippatsu depends on a riichi anyway. in washizu you can ippatsu without that?
21:17:29 <zzo38> boily: No, I mean when you need 2 han to win if the oya wins five times
21:17:45 <kmc> fizzie: there should be a high speed rail tunnel to Tallinn, don't you think
21:18:34 <boily> zzo38: oh. right. good catch, here.
21:21:28 <Taneb> `quote bathroom interior
21:21:29 <HackEgo> 887) <coppro> GreyKnight: for instance, you can form a poset category from a bunch of tiles <GreyKnight> oh, that's why somebody was conflating category theory with bathroom interior design the other day :-D
21:21:51 <Taneb> I still think Wang Tiles would look good in a bathroom
21:21:59 <fizzie> kmc: I do think that. (I also think people have made plans for it, but that's about all.)
21:24:47 <boily> Roujo: some day, we'll have a nice train from Québec City up to Windsor...
21:25:23 <fizzie> http://www.euregio-heltal.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Hel-Tal-rail-connection-prefeasibility-study_ETI-ASIC_110708.doc-NeoOffice-Writer.pdf and so on.
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21:29:09 <kmc> the boat is pretty nice though
21:29:13 <kmc> honestly it might matter more for freight
21:29:36 <fizzie> It's also the general "there should be more trains" principle.
21:29:50 <fizzie> "If it's empty, fill it with trains," as the saying goes.
21:30:12 <fizzie> My wife's brother 3D-printed a train at the library the other day.
21:30:15 <kmc> that document doesn't say much about the gauge issue
21:30:23 <kmc> nice! they have 3D printers at the library?
21:30:49 <fizzie> Not in any sort of generally-available-in-many-places way, just in the one at Tapiola and perhaps a couple of other places.
21:31:05 <kmc> we have one at work, but I haven't used it yet
21:31:46 <fizzie> It also costs zero moneys at Tapiola, I believe.
21:31:56 <fizzie> They're so slow the material costs aren't that high. :p
21:32:19 <kmc> Rail Baltica will be standard gauge
21:32:31 <kmc> will / would
21:32:51 <fizzie> (It's a MiniFactory v2.0 -- http://www.minifactory.fi/en/ -- that's some sort of Finnish product.)
21:34:08 * kmc is briefly confused by a country labeled "Somija" on a map of the Baltic region
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21:36:15 <fizzie> Also the "Glass Palace" (there's not all that much glass in it, but that's what it's called) right in the city centre has this placed called "meeting place" administered by the Helsinki regional library system, that's the other place they've got 3D printers (another miniFactory and an Ultimaker) in. Seems that a single 3D "printout" costs 0.40 EUR -- the same as a regular paper printout -- there.
21:36:46 <fizzie> From what I've heard, the machines at Tapiola are rather regularly broken. 3D printing doesn't quite seem to have matured all the way yet.
21:37:24 <fizzie> (On the other hand, regular printers still paper jam all the time too, so... But it's usually less of a mess to unjam.)
21:37:39 <kmc> I don't know how often the really expensive professional grade printers break
21:37:42 <kmc> probably still a fair bit
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22:47:25 <Bike> searches "/F/", finds no hits
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22:48:52 <Bike> as in, people are identifying themselves with 22/M/Canada and so on
22:50:43 <kmc> ah, this is distinct from the porn reddit convention of putting [m] or [f] etc in the title
22:50:51 <kmc> ... not like I would have any way of knowing about that
22:51:06 <Phantom_Hoover> there's an F on the second page! she does not carry a knife
22:51:50 <pikhq> I have every confidence that kmc does not know about porn.
22:53:46 <Bike> me too, redditor
22:53:57 <Bike> only leave the house with... god that is one stubby revolver
22:54:11 <Bike> are you supposed to like punch people with it
22:54:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i checked the comments; the people asking "why the fuck do you need four knives, a gun and two dozen bullets" are all downvoted
22:54:28 <zzo38> Akagi did once make a haitei on purpose (in a game that isn't Washizu mahjong, and isn't teams), and being the only yaku.
22:54:58 <elliott> Phantom_Hoover: haha wow, link to the comments?
22:55:01 <Bike> if you run out of ammo with your first knife you have to use the second
22:55:07 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/EDC/comments/1mji11/21m_microholic/
22:55:24 <Bike> put the bullets on the knifes then the knifes in the gun
22:55:56 <olsner> put the knives on the bullets and shoot knives
22:56:06 <elliott> "Not trying to hate but what is your purpose for each knife? Is one for cutting tape/boxes, another for defense? How do you carry them (pockets using clip, sheath on belt, in a backpack)?" "I use any of em for the job at hand"
22:56:16 <elliott> pretty sure this guy is a professional killer.
22:56:30 <Bike> nah he uses hunt and peck typing but REALLY hunts
22:56:32 <Phantom_Hoover> well suppose he's cutting something and one of the knives gets stuck
22:57:18 <elliott> "I like options and having several knives gives me options."
22:57:30 <elliott> I don't think he could sound more ominous if he tried
22:57:41 <Bike> several knife related options
22:57:46 <elliott> "An don't get into the whole switchblades are illegal thing. They aren't where I live and if they were I honestly don't care."
22:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> your average idiot just shrugs at this point and, at best, goes home to get another knife and gets shanked along the way after he uses all his bullets on the thirty-odd muggers coming at him
22:58:37 <kmc> reddit is scary
22:58:48 <Bike> wow the FAQ only has one question and the question is "Why are you carrying a gun/knife/etc?"
22:59:05 <elliott> "I want more than five shots available to me."
23:00:42 <Fiora> elliott: someone who needs lots of shots, maybe it's a bartender?
23:01:09 <Bike> just shoots all his patrons
23:01:29 <elliott> "two shots and four knives, please"
23:01:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 5 years later "oh shit was THAT what they were asking for?"
23:02:18 <Phantom_Hoover> "And the reason I don't always carry te glock is because I'm a smaller guy and the glock is a little big."
23:02:44 <Phantom_Hoover> so does he carry both guns when he feels like having it along or does he at least leave the revolver behind
23:02:55 <olsner> probably both, more options?
23:03:15 <fizzie> He should get a gun that shoots smaller guns.
23:03:40 <olsner> or a portable 3d printer loaded with gun templates
23:03:56 <kmc> "Security in this office park is a joke. Last year, I came to work with my spud gun in a duffel bag. I sat at my desk all day, with a rifle that shoots potatoes at 60 pounds per square inch. Can you imagine if I was deranged?"
23:04:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i had to google to make sure that wasn't a serious gun control analogy
23:07:04 <olsner> some nut with a gun complaining about nuts with guns getting into his office?
23:10:30 <Phantom_Hoover> haha wow this was the second submission after: http://i.imgur.com/aHZklek.jpg
23:11:20 <Phantom_Hoover> "if i'm going to carry things they'd better either be for killing people, or finding more people to kill"
23:15:22 <fizzie> Is that knife connected with some string to another knife?
23:15:52 <zzo38> Do you need a lot of guns to kill people? Isn't one sufficient?
23:16:03 <zzo38> Why do you need to find people to kill anyways?
23:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> the second knife is there to cut the first knife free from it
23:17:00 <fizzie> I was thinking knife-chucks.
23:17:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you can garotte an unaware mugger whilst also stabbing him in two different places
23:21:23 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/EDC/comments/1mjrh6/remember_that_kickstarter_for_pens_that_was/
23:22:37 <kmc> yes it does look like a vibrator
23:23:09 <fizzie> "It feels... just so good, you guys."
23:23:11 <kmc> disappointing that it isn't actually one, really
23:23:58 <fizzie> It feels "airtight" and "well-machined" too, if you catch my drift.
23:24:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i still can't believe they don't realise they're not even paying for a pen, they're paying for an aluminium cylinder with a hole in one end
23:24:24 <kmc> fizzie: could be trouble
23:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/EDC/comments/1mfa5p/help_me_figure_out_how_to_carry_some_combination/
23:30:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i can think of one big redundancy you could cut back on
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23:32:07 <olsner> "get rid of the car and phone and you can pack two or three more knives in your pockets"
23:32:30 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:32:36 <olsner> oh, and get a combination knife/lighter
23:39:01 -!- Bike has joined.
23:41:25 <Phantom_Hoover> cut a hole in some suitable part of your flesh, put a knife in it
23:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> some fucker tries to stab you? they have simply upped your knife count
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23:56:13 <Fiora> http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/stop-using-nsa-influence-code-in-our-product-rsa-tells-customers/ o_O
23:56:20 <Fiora> RSA was using DUAL_EC_DBRG @_@
23:56:57 <Fiora> gosh, is "everyone using dual_ec_dbrg" going to turn out to match "list of companies that were ordered around by the NSA" -_-
23:59:46 <Bike> yeah what's "rsa" mean here