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01:19:48 <kmc> wow we have a fizzie, a fizziev, and a fizziew
01:20:31 <kmc> are fizzievp and fizzievpe next
01:26:01 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:27:49 <oerjan> the next will be the outsourced cnzzie version.
01:41:57 <kmc> fizzie's non-union Canadian equivalent?
01:42:05 <kmc> er, Chinese
01:46:05 <kmc> what about suzzie
01:47:04 <myname> is that the root of all fizzies?
01:47:25 <oerjan> suzzie disappeared back in the early nineties.
01:48:59 <kmc> is there any good alternate history fiction where the soviet union survives into the Internet age
01:56:03 <oerjan> technically the soviet union _did_ survive into the Internet age.
01:56:05 <quintopia> kmc: yes, it's called "modern china"
01:56:22 <quintopia> oerjan: it collapsed within months of eternal september.
01:56:44 <kmc> oerjan: I'm (conveniently) defining "Internet age" as a time when the Internet is a pervasive part of everday life for a substantial fraction of all people
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02:02:14 <oerjan> hm funny today is the anniversary of the end of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis
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02:03:02 <Bike> i always confuse that with the 1991 thing, because i'm dumb
02:03:36 <oerjan> i was briefly wondering if quintopia had done so
02:04:19 <Bike> wow thanks myname??
02:04:20 <oerjan> (although that's not how i found it, it's on wikipedia's On this day...)
02:05:46 <oerjan> also 56 years since sputnik
02:32:00 <Sgeo> Oh, kmc, I wanted to ask your opinion about an article?
02:32:39 <Sgeo> http://www.eighty-twenty.org/index.cgi/tech/scheme/fexprs-remain-inscrutable-20110929.html
02:33:31 <Bike> «Calling Kernel's Fexprs "trivial" doesn't seem quite right to me; perhaps calling them "inscrutable" would be a better fit.» uh?
02:34:35 <Sgeo> point 1 is obvious, point 3 is interesting (saying that what should be an implementation detail of higher-order functions can get exposed)
02:35:12 <Sgeo> Actually, I take back point 1 being obvious. Just its conclusions about compilability
02:35:28 <Bike> point 3 is mentioned in shutt's thesis, he cites some paper that mentioned basically the same problem in the 80s
02:36:58 <Bike> you can dealwith it somewhat with ($define call (c . args) (apply c args)) and then using (call f ...) instead of (f ...)
02:37:08 <Bike> problems with this left as an exercise to the chatter
02:44:49 <myname> i love how you guys make more serious discussions about programming and the theory behind it than every other channel i know
02:44:54 <Bike> does anyone else think it's crazy that "feedback" didn't exist as a concept before like a hundred years ago
02:55:13 <Sgeo> Is Concurrent ML any good? Reason I ask is I think Racket is sucking CML's di.. concurrency mechanisms
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02:56:14 <Bike> how does one suck a concurrency mechanism
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03:06:45 <oerjan> `run WeLcOmE JWinslow23 | rev | rainwords
03:06:48 <HackEgo> ).tEn.lAd.cRi nO CiReToSe# YrT ,aCiReToSe fO DnIk rEhTo eHt rOf( .eGaP_NiAm/iKiW/GrO.SgNaLoSe//:pTtH :iKiW RuO TuO KcEhC ,nOiTaMrOfNi eRoM RoF !tNeMyOlPeD DnA NgIsEd eGaUgNaL GnImMaRgOrP CiReToSe rOf bUh lAnOiTaNrEtNi eHt oT EmOcLeW :32wOlSnIwJ
03:06:54 <JWinslow23> I am still stuck on commands for my Tic-Tac-Toe esolang. Can you help?
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03:07:58 <oerjan> i suspect this esolang will come to nought. just cross it out.
03:08:10 <myname> what should a command be? a move? a board? a full board?
03:09:01 <JWinslow23> I am thinking a move. But for that to work, we would need different commands on each space for each round.
03:09:39 <oerjan> you could do nim sums of tic-tac-toe games.
03:09:58 <HackEgo> EgObOt: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
03:12:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nim
03:13:24 <oerjan> the nim sum of two games is where a player can choose which of the games to play at each step.
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03:14:51 <oerjan> ok it works best for games where there is no difference between the two players.
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03:15:09 <oerjan> especially games resembling nim.
03:16:06 <PiRSquared> every impartial game is equivalent to a nim heap of a certain size (Sprague-Grundy thm)
03:16:35 <PiRSquared> but I think the idea of a tic tac toe esolang could be simpler than that
03:17:23 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:18:08 <myname> how is hackego secured?
03:18:38 <oerjan> JWinslow23: the size of the nim heap is less than the max number of moves remaining, i think.
03:19:07 <Bike> myname: lots of ways.
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03:19:37 <oerjan> myname: it runs in an umlbox sandbox, for a start.
03:19:38 <JWinslow23_> Sorry I was out. Wha were we saying about my idea?
03:21:09 <oerjan> i don't actually have an idea about a tic-tac-toe esolang that would be interesting in the way i think of as interesting (i.e. with the tic-tac-toe tied to the _semantics_ of the esolang, rather than just its encoding or syntax).
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03:22:01 <oerjan> well, which would be able to write interesting programs in that semantics.
03:22:03 <JWinslow23_> Maybe we could do something like COBOL! (No, not that one.)
03:22:46 <Bike> what if you had generalized tic tac toe, and a program was a starting position. then the action of the program is somehow encoded in the perfect play after that position.
03:23:22 <myname> Bike: way too short imho
03:23:51 <oerjan> he did say generalized, i assume that means unbounded board
03:24:05 <Bike> also, the name has to do with cheese and crackers, because pajama sam is my hero.
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03:26:54 <Bike> i don't make the rules, oerjan; i just enforce them. and the rule here is clear.
03:41:31 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:41:55 <kmc> you should find a UML 0-day
03:42:09 <kmc> shit, maybe buy one, gotta be cheap
04:01:10 <myname> i am a bit unfamiliar with the lack of hths here
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06:52:50 <Taneb> `slist happenings including the law against a controlled rage, and a hopeful fork
06:52:54 <HackEgo> slist happenings including the law against a controlled rage, and a hopeful fork: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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08:07:11 <ais523> oh, talking about C corner cases, here's one I found in mingw, and now I don't know whether it's correct or not
08:07:17 <ais523> #define STIRINGIFY(x) #x
08:07:34 <ais523> int main(void) {puts(STRINGIFY(a\r)); return 0;}
08:07:45 <ais523> in mingw, it prints "a" then a carriage return
08:08:14 <ais523> however, backslashes are escaped correctly if they appeared in any context that would be syntactically legal if it weren't a macro argument…
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08:12:05 <ais523> (not that the "past" is needed atm...)
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08:13:29 <HackEgo> 2007-04-29.txt:18:42:07: -!- ihope_ has quit ("http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/06.08.09").
08:16:07 -!- ais523 has set topic: fnord, offset fnord (with no evidence) | PDF while supplies last: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | this space intentionally left right.
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10:05:19 <ais523_> gah, Ubuntu's login prompt is really really dangerous from a security point of view
10:05:31 <ais523_> it prefills the username and asks you to type the password
10:06:01 <ais523_> which means you get into the habit of just writing the password without the username first, meaning you can accidentally type it into an echoing field whenever you use a different system
10:26:17 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523_, thus rendering you vulnerable to people-staring-over-your-shoulder attacks
10:26:44 <myname> don't forget vnc and webcams
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10:33:46 <myname> the one of the hackers, obviously
10:40:34 <fizzie> Also: reflections in your eye.
10:40:58 <fizzie> (You just rectangle-select it and say "enhance".)
10:42:16 <Taneb> fizzie, that's why I always squint when typing my password in
10:42:48 <nortti> or, you could use text-mode login that doesm't display anything when writing pass
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10:43:30 <fizzie> I've written my password on the input line of this IRC client due to "I'm sure this computer is xlock'd but I don't want to bother waiting for the screen to wake up before typing in the password". (Though I take care to not press enter before actually seeing the dialog.)
10:43:46 <myname> but what if you accidentally type it as username?
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12:05:24 <Taneb> I'm laughing at my own joke and I can't stop
12:05:59 <Taneb> Someone posted on Facebook, "yay making friends"
12:06:19 <Taneb> I replied, "Making friends is the best.", followed by, "The only bit I find difficult is attaching the arms."
12:07:21 <Koen__> that almost makes me wish I had a facebook account
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12:08:22 <mnoqy> just not funny enough to motivate getting an account
12:09:02 <mnoqy> hm, a joke would have to be pretty dang funny to motivate such a horrible thing wouldn't it
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12:46:50 <Taneb> Is it possible to double a cube with the power of origami?
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12:51:58 <fizzie> Double the cube, double the fun.
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13:44:07 <boily> good sorry-for-the-sudden-metar morning!
13:44:10 <metasepia> CYUL 041300Z 05013KT 30SM BKN080 BKN210 15/08 A3014 RMK AC6CI1 SLP205
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14:19:08 <boily> and from now on, I have glorious blue cherries under my fingers :D
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15:02:25 <EgoBot> 193 ++++++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++>++>+++++<<<<-]>>++.<-.+++++++++++++++..+++++++++.>>++++.>---.-.<.<++++++++++.+++++++++++++++.+++.+++++.++++++.>.>++.<<--------------.<.>>+.-----------------------. [148]
15:03:01 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
15:03:57 <nortti> JWinslow23: CB radio day?
15:04:42 <boily> @localtime JWinslow23
15:04:43 <lambdabot> Local time for JWinslow23 is Fri Oct 04 10:04:42 2013
15:04:57 <boily> nortti: can I ask him the The Question?
15:05:16 <boily> JWinslow23: what are your approximate cördinates, and body weigh?
15:05:28 <boily> coördinates, says I.
15:05:36 <boily> (I still need to get used to that shiny keyboard.)
15:05:38 <JWinslow23> No idea, but somewhere in Wisconsin. I weigh about 110 pounds.
15:07:02 <nortti> JWinslow23: you a CB radio user?
15:07:24 <JWinslow23> No, but I always her 10-4 on walkie talkies.
15:08:22 <JWinslow23> I sometimes use walkie-talkies. Not cell phones.
15:08:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
15:08:57 <nortti> no, I mean are you using IRC on a phone
15:09:27 <nortti> school computer has autocorrect? O_o
15:09:43 <HackEgo> bash: Welcome: command not found
15:10:00 <HackEgo> RaDiOuSeRs: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:10:35 -!- carado_ has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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15:13:09 <JWinslow23> School computer has no autocorrect, I just joked about that.
15:15:13 <JWinslow23> I think I have an idea for my Tic-Tac-Toe language.
15:15:15 <boily> @tell oerjan you stealth quoted me 4 days ago!
15:15:26 <boily> JWinslow23: is it recursive?
15:15:30 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:15:35 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
15:15:41 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
15:15:41 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
15:16:24 <JWinslow23> The center square and winning move are NOPs.
15:31:04 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
15:31:24 <lambdabot> poll-add <name> Adds a new poll, with no candidates
15:31:45 <JWinslow23> @poll-add Should I go on with my Tic Tac Toe idea?
15:31:46 <lambdabot> usage: @poll-add <poll> with "ThisTopic" style names
15:32:02 <lambdabot> Added new poll: "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea"
15:32:12 <lambdabot> choice-add <poll> <choice> Adds a new choice to the given poll
15:32:29 <JWinslow23> @choice-add ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea Yes
15:32:29 <lambdabot> New candidate "Yes", added to poll "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea".
15:32:37 <JWinslow23> @choice-add ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea No
15:32:37 <lambdabot> New candidate "No", added to poll "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea".
15:32:51 <JWinslow23> @choice-add ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea Maybe?
15:32:51 <lambdabot> New candidate "Maybe?", added to poll "ShouldIusemyTicTacToeidea".
15:33:01 <lambdabot> vote <poll> <choice> Vote for <choice> in <poll>
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15:34:57 <HackEgo> CoNeHeAd: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
15:35:29 <conehead> dear lord this is the best welcome to date
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15:43:42 <shikhin> I got three welcomes, and that wasn't one.
15:44:20 <nortti> `run WeLcOmE shikhin | rainwords
15:44:23 <HackEgo> ShIkHiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
15:44:34 <nortti> `run WeLcOmE shikhin | rainwords | tac
15:44:37 <HackEgo> \ \ ShIkHiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
15:44:57 <boily> `run WeLcOmE shikhin | tac | rainwords
15:45:00 <HackEgo> \ ShIkHiN: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
15:45:24 * boily kicks tac in the... hmm... does a unix command have reproduction organs?
15:46:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/WeLcOmE
15:48:03 <nortti> oh, interesting. still written in py
15:48:23 <nortti> I though someone would've rewritten it in perl by now
15:49:33 <boily> or a python interpreter written in perl.
15:50:20 <nortti> hmm, not gonna do that
15:50:29 <nortti> at least not over hackego
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15:56:59 <boily> yield to the Asinine and Useless side of the Programming. let free your sanity inhibitions!
15:58:56 -!- carado has joined.
15:59:03 <nortti> my sanity inhobitions I've let free when I wrote python program that had no statements, only expressions
15:59:28 <nortti> but writing a perl program over hackego would just be too much of a pita
15:59:49 <nortti> well, unless I figure out how to nicely simulate ed, that is
16:00:09 <boily> I think you know what to do. let the yaks roam and be shaved!
16:01:15 <nortti> it'd just not scale to multi-user
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17:36:02 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
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17:36:45 <fizzie> `run words --swedish --finnish 10 # let's get some of that Swedo-Finnish stuff going
17:36:47 <HackEgo> telsertapa sellistenemanan banansarskeiskys fixeri aukebatalat konaivuamiintron asigniner tempiltimurkes vacks sum
17:37:36 <olsner> does that like run a markov thingy on a mix of swedish and finnish data?
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17:39:09 <fizzie> It's a character... trigram? 4-gram? Something like that, I forget exactly.
17:39:16 <fizzie> And if you specify multiple options, it just interpolates.
17:39:36 <fizzie> (As in, sums the frequencies.)
17:39:54 <olsner> aah, ogerman is probably o-german, not oger-man
17:40:50 <olsner> is it weighted by the size of the input sets? I imagine --esolangs --x would not be very esolangy otherwise
17:41:18 <fizzie> olsner: I think all the models are normalized, but not sure.
17:41:49 <fizzie> `words --eng-1M --esolangs 15
17:41:53 <HackEgo> whailyletornentallyido ado dup lazzo ora son guo wierding befear sho affic miscudal yllangi abn evill
17:42:08 <fizzie> Well, that's not conclusive, but it looks quite esolangy.
17:42:27 <fizzie> (And whailyletornentallyido is probably quite a nice language.)
17:43:39 <olsner> dup is an esolang, isn't it? and befear is probably from befunge +/- some letters
17:45:49 <fizzie> Dupdog is. Apparently DUP is, too.
17:46:53 <fizzie> I was sort of expecting befear to actually exist, but seems that there's just Befreak.
17:47:49 <Bike> begrunge, a nirvana-based esolang
17:53:02 <fizzie> Begrudge, a language where the implementation runs your program but isn't happy about it at all.
17:56:39 <Fiora> that sounds a little like INTERCAL
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18:17:17 <Taneb> I managed to get to the semifinal without actually winning a match
18:18:46 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
18:19:58 <Taneb> nortti: writing an AI for a Battleships-like game to run on a RaspberryPi
18:21:08 <Taneb> I almost actually got to the final without winning a match
18:21:28 <Taneb> My opponent almost got disqualified for misentering twice
18:21:47 <Taneb> I saved him out of the kindness in my heart
18:22:09 <Taneb> And the fact that if I managed to get to the final without winning I'd feel really unfulfilled
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18:33:38 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: I can't right now on account of the only computer I have access to which I am willing to install software on is a Raspberry Pi
18:33:49 <Taneb> And tomorrow is Freshers' Fair
18:33:53 <Taneb> Maybe tomorrow evening
18:34:39 <Phantom__Hoover> how does freshers work in universities that actually have a week for it
18:35:43 <Taneb> Basically, you have a week to get settled in with stuff like "This practical is where you learn to turn on a computer"
18:35:55 <Taneb> And then for one day all the societies try to get you to join them
18:36:02 <Taneb> And then it's over
18:37:22 <Phantom__Hoover> except the societies all try and get you to join on tuesday through thursday
18:56:04 <myname> anyone suggestions for naming my hardware in general or my new mini root in detail?
18:57:28 <myname> where does it come frome?
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19:04:10 <Phantom__Hoover> myname, it's one of the nitrogen-fixing bacteria in plants or something
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19:47:27 <boily> finally out of formation.
19:47:42 <boily> uuuuuuuuurgh... that was long. but now, I understand enterprisey stuff!
19:48:09 <Bike> hooray, apparently
19:48:56 <boily> I'm feeling dizzy on so many levels it's not funny.
19:48:59 <Bike> woe, apparently
19:49:23 <boily> the woe is amply felt, and I'm confused as ever about manufacturing processes.
19:56:43 <olsner> incidentally, that means scrotum
19:57:03 <boily> that's the second definition on urban dictionary about pung.
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20:53:55 <boily> some day, I'll get an amateur radio license...
20:54:00 * boily dreamily looks in the sky
20:54:41 <Bike> is the license in the sy or just the radio waves
20:56:48 <boily> license in the sky with radio waaaaves ♪
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21:15:22 <boily> the new swearing idiom, after the Fungottian Conjugations, “to give a BF”.
21:18:58 <boily> `learn JWinslow23 is a Wisconsinite who doesn't give a BF.
21:22:42 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:23:06 -!- boily has quit (Quit: probably poulet tonight. maybe. but don't bet on it.).
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21:23:18 <HackEgo> bash: JWinslow23: command not found
21:24:11 <Bike> `run echo JWinslow23
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21:28:43 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, SYNTAX ERROR!
21:28:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:14 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:24 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:42 <JWinslow23> `If you're happy and you know it, then your face will surely show it, if you're happy and you know it, /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
21:29:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: If: not found
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21:41:06 <kmc> Error: something's wrong.
21:41:17 <ion> Error: an error occurred
21:47:23 <Phantom__Hoover> someone make a clever `? telling people to experiment with the bots in /query
21:48:28 <Koen__> doing irc in private sounds ultimately boring
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21:50:06 <kmc> I remember HL engine games that would crash with "Error: no error"
21:50:17 <kmc> the Linux equivalent is usually "Error: Success"
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22:03:09 <lambdabot> boily said 6h 47m 53s ago: you stealth quoted me 4 days ago!
22:03:31 <oerjan> @tell boily i don't recall there being anything stealthy about it.
22:03:48 <oerjan> `run allquotes | tail -4
22:03:50 <HackEgo> 1112) <zzo38> It is probably also "horrifyingly fucked up" \ 1113) <boily> aaaaaurgh. you're making me think on a Monday! that shouldn't be happening! \ 1114) <kmc> what did fungot say? <fungot> kmc: my implementation isn't supposed to sound rude. \ 1115) <kmc> BBC: Exercise 'can be as good as pills' <kmc> oh, they mean for your health
22:09:22 <oerjan> @tell Gregor ais523 evicted your logs from the topic, you might want to fix them.
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22:25:52 <oerjan> <nortti> school computer has autocorrect? O_o <-- it's so the pupils will get used to computers being maddenly annoying.
22:29:51 <oerjan> @tell boily also, you are still confusing tac and rev
22:31:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT
22:31:57 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ print (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())
22:32:33 <FireFly> is tac the one that reverses order of lines?
22:32:49 <FireFly> Okay, good, hopefully I'll remember that
22:32:49 <oerjan> what's the python for printing without a newline?
22:34:12 <FireFly> Good question. Unfortunately I don't know python
22:34:19 <olsner> add an extra comma at the end
22:35:46 <oerjan> olsner: i think that's perl, not python
22:36:04 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/493386/how-to-print-in-python-without-newline-or-space
22:36:34 <olsner> hmm, so comma adds a space instead of newline?
22:39:01 <oerjan> `run sed -i -e '1aimport sys' -e 's/print/sys.write/' bin/CaT #Let's see how much i messed this up
22:39:15 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ sys.write (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read())
22:39:36 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/CaT", line 3, in <module> \ sys.write (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()) \ AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'write' \ 0 0 0
22:40:07 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/write/stdout.write/' bin/CaT
22:40:18 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/CaT", line 3, in <module> \ sys.stdout.write (lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()) \ TypeError: must be string or read-only character buffer, not function \ 0 0 0
22:41:55 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/write /write (/;s/read(/read()/' bin/CaT
22:42:14 <HackEgo> WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/WiKi/mAiN_PaGe. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
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22:46:32 <quintopia> cosider a class of programs in which every program P can, given the right integer as input, output the listing of any other program in this class
22:46:34 <oerjan> quintopia: also what happened to your webside, we had to link Spiral to Wayback.
22:47:38 <quintopia> does it make sense to talk about the maximal such class?
22:47:56 <quintopia> i lost it when i stopped paying for it
22:48:55 <oerjan> there is clearly a program which ignores its input and prints itself (i.e. an ordinary quine). it cannot be extended, and there are many such, so "the" cannot apply.
22:49:29 <oerjan> *its single-program class cannot be extended
22:52:12 <oerjan> otoh the set of programs that can print _anything_ given an integer as input is such a class, i should think. although it might still be extendable.
22:52:30 <quintopia> yes, i would expect the most inclusive such class
22:52:45 <oerjan> it's the "the" that's the problem, not the "maximal" :P
22:53:19 <oerjan> it's obviously non-existent. just make two programs that can print anything, except each other.
22:53:32 <oerjan> which one should you include?
22:54:29 <oerjan> you can always find a maximal class, using zorn's lemma on the class you start with. (you might even be able to tweak it to be constructive to list.)
22:55:21 <oerjan> no wait, cannot be constructive/computable, it will be undecidable whether a program can be added to the class.
22:55:56 <oerjan> because you cannot check whether a program can print a given other program.
22:56:52 <oerjan> unless you start out with a class that is artificial limited to only decidable programs as the common output
22:56:58 <impomatic> Someone sent a tombstone to the creators of COBOL in 1960! http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X572.85
22:57:21 <Koen__> oerjan: what if you throw an equivalence relation over your programs
22:57:31 <Koen__> "if they do the same thing, they're the same program"
22:57:46 <oerjan> Koen__: that's not going to _help_ decidability.
22:57:47 <Koen__> and then reprensent every equivalency class by a decidable program
22:58:31 <oerjan> Koen__: there are probably programs that have no decidable equivalent programs.
22:59:02 <Koen__> even in the set of programs that print listings of other programs of the class given integers as input?
23:00:01 <Koen__> every program is equivalent to the sequence (output(n))_(n\inN)
23:00:36 <Koen__> surely you can make a decidable program matching that sequence?
23:01:13 <oerjan> um those programs don't match quintopia's initial problem afaict
23:01:55 <oerjan> sure you can make decidable programs for a simple example. the problem is coming up with anything interesting where you can decide for _all_ the members.
23:05:40 <kmc> nice, you can write any old HTML/CSS/JS in jsfiddle and then immediately download it as a Firefox OS mobile app
23:12:43 <quintopia> oerjan: what's the proof that it's impossible to prove an as-inclusive-as-possible maximal set is maximal
23:14:14 <kmc> `rot13 dongs
23:14:33 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't know, but i am saying you have to construct your maximal set very carefully to ensure no undecidable-whether-you-can-add-them candidates arise
23:14:51 <oerjan> and it might very well be impossible to do so.
23:15:06 <quintopia> in what situation would it become undecidable whether you can add them
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23:16:38 <oerjan> quintopia: if all the programs already printed are capable of printing a program whose halting problem is undecidable, and if it does halt the part after the loop belongs to the class...
23:17:39 <oerjan> and that's just the simplest context i could think of
23:18:22 <oerjan> you could also have programs at some point for which it is undecidable whether they can print a given other progra¨m
23:20:22 <oerjan> if you try to include only programs for which such things are decidable, then it may not be maximal in the original sense because there would always be a program with undecidability issues that _could_ be added.
23:20:51 <quintopia> so does this mean the existence of an as-inclusive-as-possible such class is undecidable?
23:21:52 <oerjan> i am not claiming to have any proof.
23:22:50 <Bike> class of what now
23:22:53 <oerjan> an added problem is that you have not defined "as-inclusive-as-possible"
23:23:18 <Bike> but not gregor's, i note
23:23:38 <oerjan> Bike: ais523 removed them. the .txt version still works.
23:24:03 <Bike> why are they removed
23:24:08 <Bike> the class of computable enumerations? hm
23:24:17 <Koen__> doesn't "A is as-inclusive-as-possible" mean "there is no set B (fitting the same criteria )
23:24:27 <Koen__> such that A is included in B"?
23:24:39 <oerjan> Bike: ask ais523, but my guess is because the link leads to a date listing page where the most prominent links _don't_ work.
23:24:59 <Bike> yes, i have been the most active Gregor-complainer during the crisis
23:25:01 <oerjan> Koen__: no, that's "maximal".
23:26:10 <oerjan> i understand quintopia to mean something else by "as-inclusive-as-possible", something that excludes my example above of every quine forming a single-element maximal class.
23:26:49 <Koen__> quines take input now?
23:27:06 <oerjan> Koen__: no, they ignore it.
23:27:09 <Koen__> (I was trying to be funny. sorry)
23:27:19 <Bike> jokes are disallowed in this space-time vector
23:27:29 <oerjan> but since there are obviously subsets of programs that exclude each other, the concept of "inclusive" seems _very_ vague to me.
23:27:43 <oerjan> to include something, you have to exclude something else.
23:28:19 <oerjan> and in what sense is whatever you include then "inclusive" if that's to mean something other than maximal.
23:28:35 <quintopia> oerjan: i don't know how to define it. i suppose the one you get by starting with all quines, then modifying them so they can all print each other
23:30:06 <oerjan> quintopia: i suspect a horrible mess of possible alternative definitions.
23:34:21 <oerjan> Bike: i never notice the log problem personally because my habit is to just bring up the last .txt link on the address line and edit the date.
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23:35:16 <Bike> i kinda like the formatting
23:35:36 <oerjan> i cannot stand the font size
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23:35:47 <oerjan> it's fine if i zoom out.
23:35:55 <Bike> oh... i think it's the same size as the .txt for me.
23:37:43 <oerjan> or wait, i may have to set the font size instead, i recall one of the options causes horrible wrapping.
23:38:18 <oerjan> (as in, the messages gets wrapped to right below the corresponding nick, iirc)
23:39:23 <oerjan> in any case, since .txt from the address bar means less tweaking, i use that.
23:40:10 <oerjan> well except in some cases, when the .txt gets horribly broken and i switch to the formatted version.
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23:40:31 <oerjan> right-to-left stuff sometimes does that.
23:41:11 <oerjan> (and it affects the whole _rest_ of the file after it.)
23:42:54 <oerjan> i wish Gregor would set the encoding on the .txt file, for some reason IE 10 hides the option to select utf-8 if it hasn't autodetected it deeply in a horribly long list of charset options.
23:43:25 <kmc> imo, fuck IE
23:43:30 <oerjan> (old IE 8 had utf-8 conveniently placed.)
23:44:34 <kmc> does it have "codepage 65001"
23:44:41 <oerjan> kmc: you're so predictable. also, does whatever you use have changing a wrongly detected encoding in a convenient place?
23:45:32 <kmc> yeah both Chrome and Firefox make that convenient
23:45:46 <kmc> I love that you can introduce security holes by convincing users to change the character encoding (or tricking the browser)
23:46:12 <oerjan> kmc: i don't see 65001 on the list.
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23:46:32 <oerjan> admittedly the list isn't _that_ long, but utf-8 isn't on the first page.
23:46:33 <kmc> I think I'm OK with being predictable
23:58:26 <kmc> "With Silk Road shut down, developers are finding it hard to do a rolling deploy" -- Hacker News Onion
23:58:48 <Bike> haha i get it, it's about "blunts"
23:58:52 <Koen__> are you ok with being decidable?
23:59:08 <kmc> Bike: so close yet
23:59:22 <Bike> this is me and every drug joke. right here. the platonic bike reaction.
23:59:38 <kmc> Koen__: the alternative is having unbounded state, which seems more terrifying