00:00:42 <kmc> maybe there should be a mode to send the text only if it quits with exit code 0
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00:31:52 <kmc> oerjan: I guess your IRC client / terminal / whatever doesn't know about non-ASCII spaces
00:32:22 <kmc> er actually there isn't a space there
00:33:06 <oerjan> kmc: hm? it's not my client. my client doesn't make links anyhow.
00:33:51 <kmc> so you were asking if anyone saw something that you don't see?
00:34:04 <oerjan> but jwinslow23 made a page on esolang that looks like it came from that message.
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00:51:41 <zzo38> I intend to make it so that there is four kind of line prefixes (there is also lines with no prefix), meaning: assembly language, SQL, text, preformatted text. What could be the prefix characters to indicate these things?
00:57:48 <myname> what the hell are you doing
00:57:50 <zzo38> I shouldn't use letters; I should use a punctuation, other than those used by the basic format that can occur at the start of the line.
00:59:19 <myname> you guys don't even try
00:59:37 <zzo38> So far I think your idea of !?.: is best
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01:02:54 <Koen_> I was gonna go for _ = ≡ but I didn't have a quadruple-bar symbol on my keyboard
01:03:12 <zzo38> I don't have either; I have to use only ASCII symbols.
01:03:24 <zzo38> (and furthermore, only printable ASCII symbols)
01:50:34 <copumpkin> man, I come across random IRC snippets
01:50:41 <copumpkin> and guess what he's talking about!
01:51:10 <zzo38> I cannot guess it very well.
01:51:11 <mnoqy> you got the vowel right
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01:54:27 <Sgeo> Does space count as printable?
01:55:13 <tswett> I consider space a printable character.
01:55:28 <tswett> It doesn't do anything besides advancing the cursor and painting stuff.
01:58:12 <zzo38> Yes space does count as printable (as far as I am concerned), but it doesn't count here because the space would be ignored even before the prefix symbol; this way you can make it in a indented block rather than having to move it to the first column to make it messy.
01:58:49 <zzo38> Do you have the stats for the big leech so that we can downgrade it to make the stats for the small one too?
02:00:06 <oerjan> zzo38: maybe this? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Black_Leech_(3.5e_Creature)
02:01:08 <zzo38> I will look later, but is it suitable to downgrade to make the small one?
02:01:17 <zzo38> (Right now I have another program open instead)
02:01:30 <oerjan> it actually says "small animal"
02:02:02 <oerjan> "A black leech, often called blood devil, is an about 3 feet long, 1 feet thick creature with a completely, inky black skin. It weighs about 40 pounds and is parasitic."
02:02:11 <zzo38> I suppose if the ordinary rules are used to change it to "tiny animal" then it might work
02:03:23 <oerjan> anyway it was my first google hit for '"leech" d&d' (i put leech in quotes because google seemed to want it to be lich instead), there may be other hits.
02:04:12 <tswett> So, lemme complain about... the universe or something.
02:05:00 <oerjan> well, i have a hunch the others on the first page are spells and powers.
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02:05:19 <tswett> So, there's Haskell. It's described as "the simply typed lambda calculus with tons and tons of syntactic sugar on top". It's pretty much one of the fundamental programming languages of the universe.
02:05:37 <Bike> legend has it that the sun was developed in haskell
02:05:57 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe. However the purpose of such a thing I ask is for use as a familiar and other things.
02:07:00 <oerjan> zzo38: yes, the link i gave was for a creature.
02:07:05 <FreeFull> Brainfuck is the most fundamental language
02:07:07 <tswett> So I once pondered, what would Haskell be like if values couldn't be duplicated or discarded? A lot of stuff would become easier; instead of having monadic I/O, you could have functions taking a World and returning a World.
02:07:11 <FreeFull> Everything else is a dialect of Brainfuck
02:07:16 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I know that you said "small animal" which is implying that.
02:07:25 <oerjan> tswett: http://xkcd.com/224/
02:07:34 <Bike> Are we talking about animals, I bet animals are way more interesting than Platonism.
02:07:41 <tswett> Turns out that, like Haskell is in some sense equivalent to intuitionistic logic, there's another sort of logic, linear logic, that would be equivalent to Haskell-without-duplicating-or-discarding.
02:08:12 <zzo38> (But I do like to make up some spell/power too, such as, "Kjugobe's Timer", and magic items such as the magic pair balls which allow you to know the distance between them and teleport the other one to you while you are holding one.)
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02:08:56 <tswett> FreeFull: something like that. In this language, uniqueness would be enforced *everywhere*; you'd need special markers or whatever in order to do something that doesn't obey it.
02:09:02 <oerjan> tswett: btw haskell isn't simply typed, it's polymorphic with its own heap of extensions to hindley-milner types.
02:09:26 <tswett> oerjan: how far does Haskell 98 extend HM types?
02:09:58 <tswett> So it turns out some people have created programming languages based on linear logic. I've looked at them, and I don't really like any of them. So I decided to try to create a programming language that's pretty much Haskell, but linear.
02:10:19 <oerjan> tswett: also look at Clean, which is the very-similar-to-an-older-brother-of-haskell-using-unique-types-instead-of-IO-monads-although-you-_can_-define-monads-if-you-want language.
02:10:24 <zzo38> I will write down the creature stats you gave me so that I can remember it for later in order to downgrade it.
02:10:53 <tswett> I'm calling it Hylisk. As far as I can think, I have it totally worked out, except for a few unimportant details, like what members its None class would have.
02:11:58 <tswett> So, Hylisk and Haskell are almost completely identical, right? Hylisk is also purely functional, with lambdas and applying and algebraic data types and pattern matching and all that jazz.
02:12:25 <tswett> And yet, I've put hours and hours of thought into the idea of compiling Hylisk into Haskell, and I just can't find a way to do it that makes any sense.
02:12:54 <oerjan> tswett: well the first haskell extension was type classes. then the classes were allowed to be type constructors instead of just types, which allowed e.g. Monad. since then it has got all kinds of weird stuff, type families, multiparameter type classes, rank n types, existential types, and lately kind polymorphism and automatic raising of types to kinds...
02:13:18 <oerjan> *the class members were
02:13:19 <zzo38> oerjan: A lot of these Haskell extension are useful.
02:13:26 <tswett> Since when does Haskell 98 have type families?
02:13:45 <FreeFull> tswett: Have you been working on an implementation?
02:13:57 <tswett> But yeah, type constructors and classes are definitely extensions, I think.
02:14:10 <zzo38> tswett: Do you have the other details too?
02:14:30 <oerjan> tswett: haskell 98 isn't the latest standard. almost everything beyong class type constructors isn't included in that. not that haskell 2010 added any type extensions that i recall.
02:14:32 <tswett> FreeFull: not really; I want to write a compiler, not an interpreter, but I have no idea how a compiler would work.
02:14:52 <tswett> oerjan: *nod* I'm just looking to copy Haskell 98 at the moment.
02:14:56 <FreeFull> tswett: Would System F be useful?
02:15:02 <tswett> zzo38: the other details about what? The type system, or the entire language?
02:15:18 <FreeFull> Maybe you could compile down to the same dialect of System F that Haskell uses, and then use GHC's infrastructure from there on
02:15:29 <oerjan> tswett: with all the changes they've done in the basic libraries i'm not even sure ghc _supports_ haskell 98 any more.
02:15:49 <tswett> FreeFull: the thing is, Hylisk types don't translate cleanly into Haskell types, at least not in any way I've discovered.
02:16:03 <oerjan> the removal of superclasses on Num would be the biggest inconsistency, i think.
02:16:05 <elliott> oerjan: you have to replace (Num a) constraints with (Num a, Show a, Eq a), everything else is "fine" if you use the haskell98 base library afaik
02:16:18 <elliott> of course Applicative => Monad is happening and will ruin everything.
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02:16:30 <tswett> The best idea I've come up with so far is to have a Haskell type called HyliskValue and make everything be that.
02:16:57 <FreeFull> That sounds like throwing types away
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02:16:59 <kmc> copumpkin: what did i do now
02:17:09 <elliott> tswett: look at https://github.com/isomorphism/Delineate.
02:17:28 <tswett> zzo38: well, I guess there are some other details I've thought of that I haven't decided what to do about. And, undoubtedly, some other details I've completely forgotten about.
02:18:29 <FreeFull> tswett: I think rather than trying to map types to types, you just create your own type system
02:18:37 <FreeFull> Which you probably are already doing
02:19:01 <FreeFull> Although if you say it's still typed lambda calculus, you should be able to compile down to that
02:19:28 <tswett> elliott: I've looked at that, and I feel like I ultimately dismissed it for some reason. Now I don't remember why I dismissed it. Maybe I didn't have a good reason.
02:21:04 <tswett> FreeFull: well, here's one rough spot that Hylisk has. In Hylisk, there's a type for functions that don't return: a function of type "a -> Done" takes "a", and then doesn't return. Now, there's a function cancel :: ((a -> Done) -> Done) -> a.
02:21:31 <oerjan> elliott: it just makes a lie of the promise the haskell 98 report made that programs made according to it should expect to be supported long after new standards had arrived.
02:21:44 <tswett> "cancel" takes a function f. It then creates a new function g, and passes g into f. Then it waits for f to call g, and grabs the argument to g and returns it.
02:22:19 <Koen_> tswett: what's the point of a function that doesn't return, except side-effects? but I thought Hylisk was purely functional and that would mean there are no side-effects...
02:23:50 <tswett> Koen_: well, there are ways that data can get out of a function besides being returned.
02:25:02 <tswett> All right. You might really hate this syntax. If so, I apologize.
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02:25:18 <tswett> Example: ((\y -> y 3) \x) -> x
02:25:37 <tswett> You know what, that example can be simplified.
02:25:55 <tswett> In Hylisk, \x is a function that binds x to its argument, and doesn't return.
02:26:04 <tswett> So (\x 3) -> x evaluates to 3.
02:26:28 <zzo38> Do they have any relations to linear logic?
02:26:44 <Koen_> so that's "assign 3 to x"?
02:26:49 <tswett> zzo38: the stuff that I just described? Yeah, absolutely; it's completely inspired by linear logic.
02:26:53 <Koen_> that sounds *a lot* like a side-effect
02:27:07 <zzo38> Is there a zero, one, top, and bottom types? What do they do, if so?
02:27:39 <tswett> Sounds really impure, but isn't. There's no way to do destructive modifications. Evaluating the same expression twice always gives you the same answer.
02:28:17 <Koen_> destructive as in irreversible?
02:28:54 <oerjan> i see google front page has changed its ui again. now i need one more click to get to translate.
02:29:09 <oerjan> it was already slightly annoying that i needed two.
02:29:16 <tswett> zzo38: yup. Zero is an uninhabited type. One is the unit type, whose values can be freely created and destroyed. Top is a "garbage" type; you can create values of it, but values of that type can't be destroyed or otherwise disposed of. Done is the "no return" type; if a function returns Done, that's equivalent to not returning.
02:30:14 <oerjan> i assume this is poisonous infection from that mobile app stuff.
02:31:20 <tswett> Koen_: you know, I guess I don't really have a good idea of what "destructive modification" actually means.
02:31:36 <tswett> I mean, "const True" is an irreversible function in Haskell, isn't it? But it's not impure.
02:32:39 <Koen_> I'm not sure what -> means in Hylisk, but I'm gonna assume "(\x 3) -> x" is literally what I would write in ocaml as "let x = 3 in x". in that case the only reason why this "assignment" isn't a side-effect is because it's not an assignment, but rather just a replacement in the right-hand expression
02:33:12 <Koen_> (and the right-hand expression wouldn't make sense without the let in, since x would be free)
02:33:29 <tswett> Right. And that's pretty much what -> does.
02:33:45 <tswett> Evaluate the left hand side until it's of the form "\x y", and then replace x with y on the right hand side.
02:34:19 <Koen_> yeah... but in that case "\x 3" doesn't make sense without the "->" ?
02:34:22 <tswett> Now, here's cancel: cancel f = (f \x) -> x
02:34:37 <Koen_> so it's not really a function
02:35:16 <tswett> Backslash-variables, arrows, and the corresponding bare variables are in a one-to-one-to-one correspondence. Each appearance of one must correspond to exactly one appearance of each of the other two.
02:35:54 <tswett> Koen_: well, it's certainly treated as a function. It has a type (in this case, something like Integer -> Done), it can be passed into functions that take functions, and so on.
02:35:54 <FreeFull> Which excludes something like \x -> x*x
02:36:05 <tswett> FreeFull: right, because x appears too many times on the right hand side.
02:36:30 <Koen_> my point is I'm under the impression that this "Done" is similar to ocaml's "unit"... but ocaml has a unit type because it's is *not* purely functional
02:36:52 <FreeFull> tswett: How would you write something like that, assuming there is no other way to square?
02:37:34 <tswett> FreeFull: well, here's how you're going to write it if I don't create any syntactic sugar for it: \x -> uncurry (*) (duplicate x)
02:37:39 <tswett> I'm going to create syntactic sugar for it.
02:38:12 <tswett> "\x -> x*x" is probably going to be syntactic sugar for "\x -> uncurry (*) (duplicate x)". "duplicate" is a member of a class, called Duplicable or something.
02:38:40 <tswett> The instance of duplicate for Int is primitive, but other data types might have non-primitive implementations.
02:38:42 <FreeFull> tswett: Do you think something like this could work as a stack-based/concatenative language?
02:39:20 <tswett> Koen_: it took me a really, really long time to figure out what Done means, and I still don't have too great a grip on it.
02:40:15 <Koen_> then it's probably not like ocaml's unit, because afaik "unit" just stands for "dummy value you return when you've got nothing to return"
02:40:38 <tswett> Koen_: right. Hylisk has such a type; it's tentatively called Unit.
02:41:03 <Koen_> ooooookay. so there are side-effect after-all?
02:41:43 <elliott> Haskell has () too. nothing to do with side-effects
02:42:17 <tswett> FreeFull: well, I did come up with an idea for a modified do-block. "sdo {a; b; c}" is syntactic sugar for "c . b . a". And if you write "x <- a", then I think that corresponds to matching a with a pair, binding x to one half of it, and passing the rest of it along.
02:42:39 <tswett> elliott: yeah, but my Weird Extended Lambda Syntax looks a lot like side-effects.
02:42:40 <Koen_> I apologize for exhibiting my ignorance like that :p but I really can't think of a use for the unit type, other than as return type for side-effect-only functions
02:43:01 <elliott> same reason the identity function is useful
02:43:14 <zzo38> Do you expect downgrading the size to make it suitable for familiar and similar things?
02:43:17 <elliott> e.g., instantiating parameterised types
02:43:19 <Bike> "making @pl do stupid things"
02:44:20 <Koen_> I'll try to give that some thought, and in the meantime I'll give myself some sleep. thank you for your explanations and your patience!
02:44:44 <FreeFull> tswett: I want to try it out as soon as you have a working implementation
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02:46:07 <tswett> I guess here's how I'd say it. "\x 3 -> x" doesn't have side effects. The funky thing about \x is that instead of returning a value into the surrounding expression, it returns a value into the letter x on the other side of the arrow. The only "side effect" is that data moves through a different channel.
02:46:12 <tswett> FreeFull: yeah, me too. ^_^
02:48:49 <tswett> So, lemme think. Hylisk types don't seem to be possible to translate into Haskell in a sensible way. Maybe they are, I dunno. But Hylisk *expressions* can be translated into Haskell in a sensible way, or so it seems.
02:49:42 <elliott> tswett: a Hylisk type of kind * will most likely translate into a Haskell type of kind * -> * or (* -> *) -> *.
02:50:39 <tswett> elliott: I had that thought, yeah. For a little while, I thought that Hylisk types might even translate into monads.
02:52:13 <elliott> e.g. newtype Done r = Done r; data Unit r = Unit; data Zero r
02:52:31 <elliott> maybe that Unit is actually Top.
02:52:48 <tswett> elliott: I've had almost exactly the same thought as that, yeah.
02:53:39 <Bike> that wasn't very funny.
02:53:49 <tswett> I defined the four identity types (Done, Unit, Zero/Impossible, Top/Garbage) in those three ways, using one of the definitions twice, but I knew that had to be wrong.
02:54:26 <tswett> Now, certainly the Hylisk type World does translate to a Haskell monad. You'll never guess which one. Hint: it's IO.
02:54:31 <elliott> tswett: I think you should rename Unit -> One and Done -> Bottom.
02:54:35 <elliott> for consistency with the rest of the world.
02:55:14 <tswett> elliott: I could, I suppose, but Haskellers are used to "bottom" meaning... whatever its Haskell meaning is.
02:55:51 <tswett> Now, my reasoning with World and IO is pretty straightforward. In Haskell, a monad is essentially a context, which cannot be duplicated or discarded, but which can be queried.
02:56:18 <tswett> And in Hylisk, a value of type World is essentially a context, which cannot be duplicated or discarded, but which can be queried. So, like, exactly the same damn thing.
02:56:59 <tswett> But there's a problem. In Haskell, querying the context doesn't change the type of a context. If you make a query, you can always make the same query again any number of types.
02:57:27 <zzo38> Is this OK? Telepathy to 5ft anywhere; master loses 3 max HP within range.
02:58:09 <tswett> But that's not the case in Hylisk. If you have a value of type (Int -> Int), then you can pass an Int into it and receive an Int, but only once.
02:58:30 <zzo38> tswett: Then add some ! and ? types too.
02:58:46 <zzo38> (Possibly even more than one kind of each.)
02:58:59 <tswett> zzo38: yeah, but the problem isn't that ! and ? don't exist; the problem is that types without ! and ? do exist.
02:59:44 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, I know, but there can be ! and ? types in addition to the types without ! and ?
03:00:12 <tswett> !(Int -> Int) would translate perfectly well as a Haskell monad, I think. But that doesn't fix the fact that (Int -> Int) does not.
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03:02:14 <tswett> So, this gives me a thought: "duh, just make them functors instead".
03:03:15 <tswett> If "f" is a Hylisk type, then the corresponding Haskell type "f a" will mean "something that uses a Hylisk value of type 'f' to produce a Haskell value of type 'a'".
03:04:38 <tswett> So, what is "Done a"? It's something that uses a Hylisk value of type "Done" to produce a Haskell value of type "a".
03:05:15 <tswett> There's a problem with that, though. The only thing you can do with a value of type "Done" is call it, and when you do, it won't return the program flow back to you.
03:05:54 <elliott> tswett: I am pretty sure you want to be using something like the continuation monad's idea of negation.
03:06:07 <elliott> which importantly, lets you *customise* the equivalent of Done to an "r" type you get to choose
03:06:31 <tswett> elliott: I've definitely thought about the continuation monad(s) a lot, yeah. They also have the idea of "functions that don't return".
03:06:48 <tswett> Where can I read about negation in a continuation monad?
03:06:57 <elliott> Oleg's site has some stuff, I think
03:11:08 <tswett> I haven't found anything yet.
03:14:06 <tswett> What *is* the continuation monad's idea of negation, exactly? Is the negative of "a" in "Cont r" just "a -> r"?
03:17:09 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
03:18:37 <tswett> I have had some vague ideas about how Hylisk might turn into continuation stuff. In Haskell, you can't prevent someone from duplicating a value; but there may be ways to make it so that even if they do duplicate a value, they can only use one copy of it.
03:19:21 <tswett> Like, suppose you're a function of type (a -> r) -> r, where r is opaque to you. You can duplicate your argument all you want, but it's not going to matter, because you can only *use* it once.
03:20:08 <oerjan> tswett: i think the negative of a is ideally a -> Cont r Void
03:20:57 <tswett> That's isomorphic to a -> r, though, isn't it?
03:21:14 <tswett> That's a -> (Void -> r) -> r, and (Void -> r) only has one inhabitant.
03:21:44 <oerjan> i was trying to think inside the monad
03:22:09 <tswett> Gee, this is starting to seem like it might be really simple.
03:22:28 <oerjan> wait, Void -> r has as many inhabitants as r has.
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03:22:32 <Bike> such is computer science
03:22:53 <tswett> oerjan: uh, no? The only inhabitant is \x -> case x of {}.
03:23:13 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, I think all those are equivalent, aren't they?
03:23:37 <copumpkin> they're all the same empty function
03:23:54 <oerjan> copumpkin: a total language function doesn't have to use its argument.
03:24:13 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, but who says const x /= const y?
03:25:16 <tswett> If you're a function of type "Either (a -> r) (b -> r) -> r", you'll provide either an "a" or a "b" to anyone who asks, but they'll only really be able to use one of them.
03:26:41 <tswett> And if you're a function of type "(a -> r, b -> r) -> r", then, uh... what the heck is that
03:28:11 <tswett> Okay, if you're a function of type "(a, b -> r) -> r", then you'll take an "a", and you'll return a "b", but no matter how many times you're called, they'll only be able to use one of the "b"s.
03:28:21 <copumpkin> I'm too tired to explain now, but https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/haskell-cafe/XQ-tFFKgyqM/ldrTqYd4hHsJ
03:28:42 <copumpkin> I'm talking about your (a -> r, b -> r) -> r
03:28:44 <copumpkin> being isomorphic to Either a b, if your quantifiers are where I think they re
03:28:58 <copumpkin> type Either a b = forall r. (a -> r, b -> r) -> r
03:29:05 <tswett> I guess that makes sense.
03:29:10 <tswett> Yeah, I'm not sure where the quantifiers are, though.
03:29:57 * copumpkin mumbles something about fibrations and binding
03:30:01 <tswett> What if r is existentially qualified... then it's much worse.
03:30:22 <tswett> Yeah, it must be quantified dependent on something...
03:30:38 <tswett> Because that's supposed to be the "par" of linear logic, which is definitely not Either.
03:31:05 <copumpkin> if those are -o then it's different
03:31:10 <tswett> Essentially, a "Par a b" is a single value that behaves as both "a" and "b" at once.
03:31:15 <copumpkin> but I'm not well versed in reasoning about linear logic
03:31:19 <tswett> Nope, this is Haskell.
03:31:48 <tswett> Guess I'll go to sleep, yeah. I'll think about continuations.
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03:34:58 <oerjan> par is the one that's hardest to intuit
03:42:12 <elliott> oerjan: forall r (f g :: Void -> r), f = g
03:42:30 <elliott> oerjan: because forall (x :: Void), f x = g x
03:42:44 <elliott> because forall (x :: Void), p
03:44:53 <oerjan> OKAY BUT DON'T ASK ME FOR HELP WHEN LOGIC STARTS BREAKING
03:50:20 <Fiora> `slist (or did someone already do this? I don't know when the upd8 was)
03:50:24 <HackEgo> slist (or did someone already do this? I don't know when the upd8 was): Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
03:50:47 <Sgeo> There was one HUGE update today
03:50:49 <Sgeo> Forgot to slist
03:53:37 <Bike> This webpage is not available <-- so i take it it turned out roxy is calliope's dream clone wife or something similarly server-crashing
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05:19:51 <__Hithere> i lkie you Bike, you are the cesloot
05:20:02 <Bike> fnially someonea gets it
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05:24:33 <kmc> hi __Hithere
05:24:38 <kmc> `relcome __Hithere
05:24:43 <HackEgo> __Hithere: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:24:54 <__Hithere> i was adaerly wlceeomd lkie fitfy mliolin tmies
05:25:24 <kmc> itt we are drunk
05:26:43 -!- kmc has set topic: The how-to guide to become the new face of zero and one | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | this spacetime intentionally left right.
05:26:45 <elliott> ^v: why are you connected as both ^v and __Hithere?
05:27:20 <__Hithere> eloitlt, becusae i wnat to see how aewosme my txet lokos
05:28:38 <oerjan> i think someone read too much of that "people only need the first and last letters to be in the right place" theory
05:29:00 <kmc> so you're not drunk?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? fals advertising
05:29:14 <kmc> what this channel has become..........
05:30:00 <__Hithere> maby i should make it seperate by capitals
05:30:30 <oerjan> __Hithere: there is no such thing as BrainFuck.
05:30:39 <oerjan> you may be confusing it with brainfuck.
05:30:43 <kmc> brbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrb-
05:30:52 * ^v shoots himself in head
05:30:58 <kmc> NOW THE HUNTER BECOMES THE HUNTED
05:31:15 <^v> is it good that i use http response code 337 for a project thingy? c_c
05:31:28 <kmc> HTTP 402 Payment Required
05:31:39 <^v> so that the header looks like HTTP/1.1 337 H4X
05:32:30 <kmc> none of that here plz
05:32:39 <kmc> why are you russian some of the time
05:32:51 <^v> im never russian
05:33:20 <kmc> Я люблю большие окурки и я не могу лгать
05:33:42 <^v> Ш вщте дшлу нщг kmc нщг фку ф зщефещ.
05:33:59 <oerjan> ^v: i suspect nonexistent response codes are not recommended.
05:34:11 <^v> not for webpages
05:34:13 <kmc> im a potato?!?!?!?
05:34:38 <^v> kmc has a russian keyboard
05:34:39 <kmc> russian is hard
05:34:49 <^v> (or memorized the keys)
05:35:10 <^v> ^ cant see this
05:35:19 <kmc> ^----------------------- IM WITH STUPID
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05:35:51 <^v> i hated that bastard
05:35:56 <^v> he was an $%^hole
05:36:06 <oerjan> he had something to hyde
05:36:08 <kmc> Русский Стандарт
05:36:20 <^v> Russian Standard
05:36:47 <kmc> Вы хотите муравьев? потому что это, как вы получите муравьев
05:37:29 <^v> Нет, я, как картофель больше
05:38:10 <^v> Ш дшлу екфшты
05:38:45 <kmc> <span lang="ru">
05:39:20 <^v> i dont like python
05:39:28 <^v> it is worth the title of joke esoteric language
05:39:35 <kmc> not interesting enuf
05:39:47 <^v> but its useless by itself
05:40:13 <kmc> those languages are so boring
06:20:36 <oerjan> not to be confused with a coopless
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11:32:13 <Taneb> Man, I forget how easy adblock makes watching youtube
11:32:26 <Taneb> Or having a desktop IRC client makes going on IRC
11:33:44 <Taneb> I had my first actual lectures this morning
11:34:09 <Taneb> One was an introduction to boolean logic, the other was an introduction to the concept of a computer architecture
11:34:17 <Taneb> I preferred the first one
11:34:31 <Taneb> I didn't think the second was very well presented
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11:55:27 <S1> So Bike what are you doing?
12:02:27 <S1> good to hear
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13:52:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:53:47 <boily> @tell oerjan my perception skills are poor. I usually need 17+ on a check.
13:53:51 <boily> @tell oerjan indeed.
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15:11:15 <JWinslow23> I'm working on a Hello World program in Tic-Tac-Toe.
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15:23:45 <JWinslow23> Anyone wanna help convert other BF programs to Tic-Tac-Toe?
15:23:57 <JWinslow23> Maybe someone can make a conversion program!
15:24:10 <JWinslow23> I'm terrible at non-esoteric programming.
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15:40:50 <Gregor> "I'm terrible at non-esoteric programming" -> So write a BF version. Then convert it with itself.
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15:55:55 <nooodl> help i think tic tac toe is kinda cute for a brainfuck derivative...
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16:15:33 <nooodl> @tell JWinslow http://codepad.org/fBMEnC3S is this a valid bf->ttt conversion? the wiki article is kinda vague
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16:23:05 <ais523> @tell elliott I want to block the latest spambot (I think I've spotted a pattern) http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:AbuseFilter/new appears to be a blank page; is there some sort of PHP issue going on on esolangs.org?
16:27:24 <fizzie> nooodl: It seems kinda wasteful.
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16:59:13 <boily> I have a dream... an Esolang Wiki without spam...
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17:17:51 <kmc> shachaf: it sounds like Servo may get speculative tokenization of CSS a la http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/118795/pldi026-vaswani.pdf
17:17:54 <kmc> p. exciting
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17:21:46 <ais523> I started lagging, so I reconnected
17:21:50 <ais523> in time to see the messages I'd just sent
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17:36:07 <elliott> probably a version mismatch
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18:18:30 <metasepia> CYUL 071810Z 22034G50KT 140V220 6SM -RA SCT022 OVC045 20/17 A2956 RERA RMK SC4SC4 PRESRR SLP011 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
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18:33:49 <tswett> So you guys know Delineate.hs? A certain Haskell module that pretty much purports to implement linear typing, in Haskell.
18:34:58 <tswett> This morning, during statistics class, I tried to replicate it. I could remember the definitions for Not and the turnstile, but nothing else. I came up with an implementation of Plus, and then I just used Not to turn it into an implementation of With.
18:35:22 <Bike> did you learn any statistics
18:36:09 <tswett> So then I realized that given a linear type, the double negation of that type is always equivalent to the original type. So I added a new class, Dne, with a function called dne that lets you eliminate double negation.
18:36:18 <tswett> This allowed me to simplify my implementation of With.
18:36:34 <tswett> Then I go look here, and it turns out my implementation of With is this guy's implementation of Times.
18:36:35 <boily> so... you added stuff to remove stuff?
18:36:58 <tswett> They can't both be right, can they??????
18:36:59 * boily scratches his head in paradozzulment
18:37:00 <tswett> boily: something like that, yeah.
18:37:42 <tswett> So now I'm skeptical that this guy's Times is actually Times and not just With, because the thing he calls Times ought to be With.
18:40:28 <tswett> It kind of seems like it is. Ich estoy confused.
18:42:34 <tswett> I'll try to get a better idea of *how* this guy's stuff corresponds to linear logic. Like, what the actual correspondence is.
18:42:35 <boily> tswett: Je am 慌てている también.
18:44:10 <tswett> Google Translate says "慌てて" means "hastily".
18:45:20 <boily> it also suggests “perpexedly”.
18:46:18 <Bike> i am perplexedly always? that's some deep shit boily.
18:46:24 <tswett> Je don't parlare Japanisch.
18:46:28 <tswett> También is also, not always.
18:46:41 <boily> Bike: I am deep. it was -RAing today. humidity confuses my neurons.
18:46:54 <Bike> why your neurons specifically?
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18:47:16 <boily> tswett: et avec mon (supposément horrible) accent français, the confusion propagates by itself.
18:47:54 <boily> Bike: statistically, I have way more neurons than anything else in my body, modulo gastrointestinal bacteria.
18:48:41 <Bike> uh... you are human, right? or am i making bad assumptions?
18:49:25 <boily> I have five fingers per hand, and I dislike BF derivatives. I think I am human, or under ~duck typing, something that moderately acts like one.
18:49:53 <tswett> Is a ~duck a function that takes a duck and doesn't return?
18:50:35 <ais523> hmm, there's an interesting insider trading speculation going on
18:51:01 <ais523> it seems as though some people became aware of the contents of a specific announcement that was going to be released at a specific time
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18:51:09 <boily> tswett: it's a function that takes an unwanted query, then returns no information.
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18:51:25 <ais523> and acted upon it after it had been announced, but before there was time for the information to reach the markets even at the speed of light
18:52:01 <tswett> Isn't that a window of a few hundred milliseconds?
18:52:11 <Bike> i mean i'm just saying, you have less than a hundred billion neurons, and more than a hundred trillion cells. by cell count you probably have more fascia or something
18:52:17 <ais523> tswett: it was 7ms in this particular case
18:52:22 <boily> wikipedia says that there are about a thousand more bacteria in your gut than neurons in your brain. “The human body carries about 100 trillion microorganisms in its intestines” “One estimate puts the human brain at about 100 billion (10¹¹) neurons”
18:52:26 <ais523> but finance trading software's faster than that nowadays
18:52:37 <Bike> boily: well yes, but your body has other cells in it.
18:52:48 <ais523> <khallow> I must admit to being a bit surprised that there is a non empty intersection of relativity and finance law.
18:53:17 <Bike> ais523: is it time for me to recommend krugman's paper on hyperspace arbitrage again
18:53:30 <ais523> Bike: that seems like a great recommendation
18:53:37 <tswett> Yeah, the relative order of those two events seems to depend on the frame of reference, doesn't it.
18:53:39 <ais523> but I enjoy the fact that it exists
18:53:40 <Bike> aw, but it's full of jokes
18:53:48 <elliott> ais523: isn't it easily explainable by the fact that news organisations are allowed to transfer the data to their own servers in preparation for releasing it?
18:54:00 <elliott> so it can be released immediately at the scheduled time once copied
18:54:08 <Bike> http://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf
18:54:12 <ais523> elliott: this was a big federal announcement in the US
18:54:17 <tswett> ais523: so, is anyone actually going to get prosecuted here?
18:54:18 <ais523> and they were intentionally keeping it secret until a specific time
18:54:19 <kmc> the really weird thing is that US securities law mandates a notional single reference frame for the National Market System, even though this is physically impossible
18:54:25 <boily> .............metasepia.........
18:54:36 <ais523> and they knew how time-sensitive it was, thus they specified the time they'd release it in advance, and used an atomic clock to make sure
18:54:48 <ais523> my guess is no, but it's quite early yet
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18:55:15 <tswett> ais523: so the information was time-sensitive down to less than a second?
18:55:23 <elliott> ais523: if you read the news articles it says news organisations are allowed to see and IIRC copy the data before it's announced
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18:55:39 <metasepia> fascia definition: a flat usually horizontal member of a building having the form of a flat band or broad fillet.
18:55:41 <elliott> ais523: so it's perfectly plausible they just copied it to a nearer server before the release date, as far as I know
18:55:56 <ais523> this is a plausible explanation
18:55:57 <elliott> ais523: thus allowing simultaneous release at both locations, because you already paid the light-speed requirement in transferring it beforehand
18:56:20 <elliott> I'd like to think that if it was that simple there would be no story, but...
18:56:21 <tswett> ais523: so... do you have a link to this or something?
18:56:47 <kmc> if I send an order to buy stock on NASDAQ, and NASDAQ thinks that I can get a better price on BATS, then they are legally required to route my order to BATS, but they might do this on the basis of their link to BATS being slow and the order can't actually be filled by the time it gets there
18:56:52 <kmc> v. annoying
18:57:11 <ais523> tswett: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/24/traders-may-have-gotten-last-weeks-fed-news-7-milliseconds-early/
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19:01:17 <tswett> Okay. So the article says that they placed the order at about 2:00:00.002, even though theoretically, there was no way they could have gotten that information until 2:00:00.007.
19:03:47 <tswett> <If I understand correctly>, that's not insider trading. The information was released at 2:00:00.000, so they placed the order after the information was publicly available. That may be really unfair, but the purpose of insider trading laws isn't to make the marketplace more fair; it's to prevent people with insider knowledge from leaking it.</If>
19:04:35 <ais523> tswett: not sure anyone understands this correctly
19:04:45 <ais523> I doubt it's ever come up before
19:05:52 <kmc> what's the purpose of preventing them from leaking it
19:05:55 <kmc> if not to make things more fair
19:06:24 <tswett> kmc: they obtained the information through some sort of agreement that obliges them to keep the information private.
19:06:48 <tswett> Or through illegitimate means.
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19:09:01 <Bike> boily: connective tissue. the stuff that keeps your heart tied to your ribcage.
19:09:37 <tswett> But yeah, the article makes a good point, I think. People trading securities ignorantly (i.e. literally everyone) are injecting free money into the market, or something like that, and all these guys compete to be the first to slurp it up.
19:10:09 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolfing haha what the fuck, awesome
19:11:01 <kmc> tswett: I don't know about "literally everyone"; the public US equity market is pretty damn efficient these days. it's hard to get a foothold building a new HFT strategy from scratch as there's very little low-hanging fruit
19:11:46 <tswett> kmc: yeah, but of all the people trading securities, not one of them knows *all* of the relevant information.
19:12:05 <kmc> brokerages get a lot of stupid orders but they'll match them internally or route them to various "dark pools" etc. before it hits the public market
19:12:27 <kmc> tswett: hm, ok, I guess that's a valid use of the word "ignorant"; I read a value judgement into it that wasn't there
19:12:34 <kmc> but I wouldn't say they're injecting "free money" then
19:12:42 <kmc> combining all that relevant information has a cost
19:12:53 <Bike> I don't know all the information relevant to this thai chicken i just bought for lunch but i'm confident that the purchase was a good decision.
19:12:54 <kmc> the people who don't pay that cost are paying others to do it for them
19:13:00 <kmc> or something
19:13:07 <Fiora> isn't HFT more along the lines of like, basically shaving cents off each transaction?
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19:13:29 <boily> Bike: what the rolfungot is that...
19:13:29 <fungot> boily: is the source free? can i write
19:13:35 <kmc> long term investors don't care about the last penny of the price; somebody else pays a bunch of physics PhDs and buys a bunch of servers to get that last penny from them
19:13:38 <ais523> Fiora: that's not how it's defined, but that's what it normally does in practice
19:13:39 <kmc> both parties walk away satisfied
19:13:41 <boily> fungot: of course you can. you just need an account on wikipédia.
19:13:41 <fungot> boily: or lichen. not. know.
19:13:42 <Bike> boily: pretty hilarious
19:13:51 <Fiora> I remember reading an article where they were doing cheesy things like using recognition algorithms to find large institutional trades
19:13:54 <kmc> Fiora, ais523: there are all kinds of different HFT strategies
19:13:57 <ais523> basically, suppose I want to buy something from you, I'm willing to pay £7, you're willing to sell it for £6
19:13:57 <Fiora> and then like, take advantage of that
19:14:12 <ais523> if we just made the deals with each other directly, we'd probably agree on a price somewhere in between
19:14:30 <ais523> in the markets, what will normally happen is that HFT bots will try to react as quickly as possible to us placing the buy or sell orders
19:14:39 <ais523> then buy it from you for £6 and sell it to me for £7
19:14:48 <Fiora> so like super short timescale arbitrage?
19:14:49 <boily> Bike: indeed. my previous top-quackering holistic body manipultion technique was accupressure, but I think that one takes the cherry.
19:15:13 <boily> fungot: lichen tastes good. I had it once in China.
19:15:13 <fungot> boily: every procedure returns a recurisve procedure. http://www.kendyck.com/ 2005/ 02/15-feb-2005 the scsh manual is?!
19:15:27 <Bike> boily: i wish my whole body was organized in gravity.
19:15:44 <ais523> anyway, this is tolerated because it increases liquidity; if I want to buy something for £7, and it normally trades for less than that, then the HFT bots will sell it to me immediately
19:15:49 <boily> Bike: btw, what does it mean?
19:15:56 <Bike> boily: what does what mean
19:16:00 <ais523> in anticipation of someone selling it for less than that soon (say, when you come along with your £6 version)
19:16:22 <ais523> so I pay more than I might have to if I'd traded with you directly, but I get the trade fulfilled faster
19:16:40 <tswett> So suppose that first you place an order of BUY LIMIT 7. Then I guess the bots could place an order of BUY LIMIT 6 right away. Then I place an order of SELL LIMIT 6, and so I sell it to the bot. Then the bot places an order of SELL LIMIT 7 and sells it to you.
19:16:52 <boily> Bike: to be organized in gravity.
19:16:54 <kmc> some strategies provide liquidity, some of them take liquidity
19:16:58 <kmc> both can be classified as HFT
19:17:09 <boily> fungot: the recursion that can be recursed is not the true recursion.
19:17:09 <Bike> boily: I don't know but it sounds relaxing.
19:17:09 <fungot> boily: it is not so much so that a reload can work" occasions. stupidity isn't so special. eg. many doctors think that multiple sclerosis ( fnord), fnord ( the old style negation symbol looks in between and good key travel
19:17:16 <kmc> some strategies lose money on average except that exchanges pay you to provide liquidity
19:17:37 <boily> Bike: I'm sure I can find at least on place here.
19:17:56 <tswett> I'd love to see the origin of "every procedure returns a recurisve procedure".
19:18:09 <boily> `pastlogs every procedure returns
19:18:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
19:18:20 <Bike> it could be, like, markov.
19:18:28 <tswett> Search for "recurisve procedure", man.
19:18:30 <Bike> "every procedure returns" and "returns a recurisve procedure" massed up.
19:19:10 <boily> Bike: what do you know → http://www.rolfing.qc.ca/engl/rolf2.htm
19:19:18 <tswett> Yeah, but what sorts of things return recurisve procedures?
19:19:45 <Bike> https://www.google.com/search?q=recurisve this misspelling is more common than i thought.
19:19:53 <tswett> I guess you could say that the Y combinator returns a recurisve procedure. But we wouldn't call it a procedure.
19:21:33 <tswett> Like, since it's a "procedure", that seems to imply that it's an actual piece of computer code. A recurisve one, to boot. But what sort of thing would specifically return a piece of recurisve code, rather than just any type of code? Not a compiler. Usually.
19:21:51 <Bike> "I have the profound conviction that our bodies are the physical manifestation of who we are."
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19:21:58 <boily> tswett: self-self-modifying code?
19:22:53 <Bike> what if it meant "recursive" as in "computable", eh
19:23:16 <tswett> Hmmm. That's a possibility.
19:23:42 <kmc> Fiora, ais523: a lot of strategies can be decomposed as a "signal" that tells you what assets would be good to own right now, and an execution engine which buys those at the best possible price by understanding market microstructure
19:23:52 <Bike> boily: by the way, if your neurons are directly exposed to atmospheric humidity, i recommend consulting a medical professional immediately. preferably a certified Rolfer ™.
19:24:45 <kmc> in some cases the former is trivial, e.g. a pure market maker which is willing to go long or short on anything. in that case the execution had better be very good so that you can unload the position when the market moves
19:25:07 <ion> :-D. The video could be straight from The Onion. I also laughed when a Fox News employee explained with a straight face that since people don’t have the time to find out what’s true and what’s not, Fox News will helpfully do that for them. http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/7/4812630/fox-news-shepard-smith-news-deck
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19:25:36 <boily> Bike: can one auto-rolf oneself? I have this emotional attachment to my precious brain.
19:25:44 <Bike> ion: that is an awesome picture
19:25:51 <kmc> but often the signal is based on observed patterns and statistical correlations between assets and such
19:25:58 <Bike> boily: you'll have to get certification in practicing Rolfing ® first.
19:26:01 <tswett> So, like... what happens when a person sells stock short, or something, and then they don't have enough money to buy it back?
19:26:07 <kmc> also, you can factor out the execution engine as a service, and this is often done within a firm, but brokers will also do it for you
19:26:10 <tswett> Presumably someone has to pay for that.
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19:26:37 <kmc> they'll offer a service which guarantees to buy a stock over the next minute and give you a price which is at most x basis points above the volume-weighted average price over that minute
19:26:46 <tswett> Guess I need to go. Auf Wiedersehen.
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19:26:56 <kmc> oh I was going to answer the question :/
19:26:59 <Bike> «"We call these BATs," Smith notes. "Big area touchscreens."» it's so beautiful
19:27:43 <boily> uhm. in Québec French, «toucher son bat» is very obscene...
19:28:10 <kmc> what's it mean
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19:28:43 <kmc> 'This is to apprise you that $1.9 Million USD was paid out to us by the United Nations in conjunction with Microsoft...
19:28:46 <kmc> They have successfully succeeded in depositing "your" total funds of $1,900,000.00 with us here at Western Union, Malaysia.'
19:29:03 <Bike> you had two million dollars? do you have any more? can i have some?
19:29:27 <boily> kmc: «bat» is slang for penis.
19:36:14 <boily> why does each time I mention something embarassing do all conversations suddenly stop?
19:36:27 <Bike> My chicken is spicy. I can't talk.
19:37:38 <boily> good point. chicken has ultimate priority.
19:37:53 <kmc> what isn't slang for penis, really
19:40:00 <ais523> kmc: "what" isn't slang for penis
19:40:08 <ais523> at least, not before I said that
19:40:22 <Bike> no, it was before you said that, i can think of how
19:40:44 <ais523> Bike: it has to actually be used for that purpose to be slang
19:40:52 <ais523> or at least appear on Urban Dictionary
19:43:02 <kmc> "Note: This fund is coming in 2 security proof boxes which are sealed with Synthetic nylon seal and padded with machine."
19:43:03 <fizzie> The Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms lists "what you may call it" ("often shortened to whatsit, less often to whatzis") with the meaning of "any taboo object".
19:43:42 <Bike> yeah, that's the sort of thing i was thinking o.
19:43:57 <fizzie> "The whatsit is through there if you want it. (B. Forbes, 1983--a woman was indicating where the lavatory lay)"
19:44:09 <kmc> let's see so World Fund Management wants to give me $7.3M, Standard Chartered is sending me $65M, and the United Nations / Microsoft are sending me $1.9M
19:44:15 <ais523> fizzie: but that's a different word
19:44:40 <Fiora> my spam box has a $10.5m thing from Nigeria
19:44:40 <fizzie> ("whistle" is slang for penis. (Didn't have to read very far to find one.))
19:44:40 * ais523 wonders what "padded with machine" means
19:44:55 <Fiora> I am vaguely afraid to open any of them though
19:45:03 * kmc asks the padding oracle
19:45:33 -!- asie has joined.
19:48:24 <fizzie> "jump² a single act of copulation"
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19:50:31 <olsner> kmc: why are they giving you money?
19:51:02 <kmc> cause i'm so great
19:51:17 <kmc> Copulation in Three Acts
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20:38:57 <kmc> checking whether the C compiler (clang -fPIC -fPIC -fPIC) works... no
20:39:03 <kmc> maybe with a fourth -fPIC ?!?!?!?
20:40:14 <boily> kmc: you sound like fungot.
20:40:44 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:40:47 <fizzie> fungot: Why u no reply?
20:40:47 <fungot> fizzie: invalid syntax delay and force are deficient. is that possible.
20:41:20 <boily> fungot: what have I done to you?
20:41:32 <boily> fungot: I must be... what?
20:41:33 <fungot> boily: oh offby1, it's not useful
20:42:53 * boily slaps fungot "get a hold of yourself!"
20:42:53 <fungot> boily: it's silly to junk up a page for the 21st century or something for tseitsei and perhaps others too: http://www.deviantart.com/ view/ fnord
20:43:22 <ion> http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131005/01383624761/how-telecom-helped-government-spy-me.shtml
20:46:11 <boily> fungot: obviously.
20:46:12 <fungot> boily: stalin compiling itself is, just a clue
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21:42:20 <oerjan> `pastelogs @tell boily
21:42:25 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 48m 37s ago: my perception skills are poor. I usually need 17+ on a check.
21:42:25 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 48m 33s ago: indeed.
21:43:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.3029
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22:14:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.1949
22:15:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:16:23 <oerjan> @tell boily fungot's irc style includes some logs from #scheme, the recurisve thing probably comes from there.
22:16:23 <fungot> oerjan: that's why i was confused by spurious control chars coming out of nothing but cornstarch water. you would see them as seperate libraries instead of solving f(x,y,z,t) 0 for x 0 99
22:16:57 <olsner> fungot: I would also be confused by that...
22:16:57 <fungot> olsner: it was quick and she i let her fnord out one last zippy the pinhead is a character from the input from a file; i don't wnat to setup output to fnord to
22:17:23 <oerjan> i see #scheme takes grieving over their idols seriously.
22:18:08 <fungot> shachaf: ( r6rs seems pretty cool game, supports many languages) fnord work
22:19:18 <fungot> shachaf: and another satisfied customer. next! *grin*
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22:28:40 <oerjan> <Bike> "I have the profound conviction that our bodies are the physical manifestation of who we are." <-- finally a profound statement we can all agree with!
22:28:55 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
22:29:05 <oerjan> except, perhaps, the profundity part.
22:29:42 <JWinslow23> I figured out my Hello World program! It is 101 instructions in BF, and 81 games in TicTacToe. Wow.
22:30:24 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello, World!
22:30:29 <EgoBot> 140 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>+++++++>+++>++++++<<<<-]>++.>+++.+++++++..+++.>++.------------.>+++.<<.+++.------.--------.>+.-----------------------. [238]
22:30:53 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello World
22:30:55 <EgoBot> 110 ++++++++++[>+>++++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>>>++.<+.+++++++..+++.>>++.<+++++++++++++++.<.+++.------.--------.<. [831]
22:31:56 <JWinslow23> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
22:32:56 <myname> JWinslow23: so, you have your language specified?
22:34:47 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
22:34:53 <JWinslow23> I have all of the syntax (and cat program) down.
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22:35:43 <oerjan> JWinslow23: oh the wikipedia one. that's shorter yes. here in this channel, "the wiki" usually means the esolang wiki (also we all are disgusted by people calling wikipedia just "wiki" hth)
22:37:27 <olsner> (as we all know, the full name is wikiwikipedia)
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22:44:54 <oerjan> oh wait the wikipedia one isn't shorter, it was 111 chars.
22:52:55 <oerjan> the wikipedia one looks txtgen made, unlike the one on esolang.
22:54:00 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello World!
22:54:03 <EgoBot> 111 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [243]
22:55:19 <oerjan> ok now i had the same text and it's identical to wikipedia.
22:55:45 <Bike> indeterminism~
22:56:14 <oerjan> no, i just didn't write precisely Hello World! before.
22:56:32 <Bike> !bf_txtgen Hello World!
22:56:34 <EgoBot> 111 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. [324]
22:56:58 <Bike> er, what's the bracketed number even do
22:57:07 <oerjan> ^bf >+++++++++[<++++++++>-]<.>+++++++[<++++>-]<+.+++++++..+++.>>>++++++++[<++++>-]<.>>>++++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<---.<<<<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
22:57:25 <oerjan> Bike: number of execution steps, i think
22:57:44 <Bike> !bf_txtgen Hello World!
22:57:47 <EgoBot> 115 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>----.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [189]
22:58:04 <Bike> now that's more like it
22:58:43 <Bike> 243and 324 are different even though it looks like the code is the same...
22:59:40 <oerjan> maybe it's genetic algorithm steps, then.
23:05:46 * oerjan makes our wiki use the shorter version too.
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23:12:20 <kmc> are you here for nobel prize season?
23:14:07 <lexande> you can award your own nobel prizes when you can come up with an endowment big enough for a million dollar prize annually
23:14:22 <kmc> when I become a central bank you mean
23:14:38 <lexande> and get some scandinavian institution to agree to make the decisions
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23:17:40 <shachaf> what if i want to award micronobel prizes
23:18:07 <JWinslow23> Look at the wiki page for my language, TicTacToe. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tic_Tac_Toe
23:18:56 <lexande> kmc: how about the fact that nobel's will says the prize in literature is only for work in an idealistic direction
23:19:06 <kmc> LOOK! At the picture. SEE! The skull. The piece of skull removed.
23:19:10 <kmc> lexande: wtf
23:19:37 -!- Bike has joined.
23:20:56 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> or at least appear on Urban Dictionary <-- ok i see cocaine and marihuana, but not penis.
23:21:56 <Bike> perhaps cocaine is itself slang for penis
23:22:55 <HackEgo> cat: bdsmreclist: No such file or directory
23:22:55 <HackEgo> * oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
23:23:39 <kmc> whisky dick, cocaine cock
23:24:03 <Phantom_Hoover> `run echo <oerjan> YOU are out of order. >> bdsmreclist
23:24:04 <HackEgo> bash: oerjan: No such file or directory
23:24:06 <lexande> this is clearly a strange place
23:24:12 <kmc> lexande: what were you expecting
23:24:19 <Phantom_Hoover> `run echo "<oerjan> YOU are out of order." >> bdsmreclist
23:24:22 <kmc> `relcome lexande
23:24:25 <HackEgo> lexande: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
23:24:29 <oerjan> lexande: NOW you are realizing? wait are you new here.
23:24:44 <oerjan> i thought lexande looked familiar.
23:24:46 <HackEgo> 713) <zzo38> I think we are sort of this insane, and also sort of not as much as insane, and also sort of a bit more insane than that, and also somewhat more various other thing at various times whatever you are discussing at that time
23:24:58 <kmc> that quote is hella apropos
23:25:02 <lexande> oerjan: i've stuck my head in here a few times previously
23:25:09 <lexande> i recall it being less strange
23:25:11 <kmc> and you have always left with your head too!
23:25:17 <kmc> lexande: it's my civilizing influence
23:25:26 <oerjan> wait, poignant is not a synonym for apropos
23:25:29 <lexande> it may be strange but it doesn't seem dangerous
23:25:30 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
23:25:39 <HackEgo> 588) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks \ 618) <shachaf> You should get kmc in this channel. kmc has good quotes. <shachaf> `quote kmc <HackEgo> 686) <kmc> COCKS [...] <kmc> truly cocks <shachaf> Well, in theory. \ 689) <kmc> damn i should make a quasiquoter for inline FORTRAN \ 692) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming l
23:25:40 <kmc> also I can do this now:
23:25:46 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
23:25:51 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o kmc.
23:25:51 <HackEgo> 939) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:26:20 <Phantom_Hoover> lexande, do these problems involve not having enough of something
23:26:21 <kmc> `run quote kmc | shuf
23:26:23 <HackEgo> 1044) <kmc> would not be surprised to find out this tumblr is guerilla marketing by wolfram co to sell mathematica to stoners \ 1000) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile of cows you have previously put your arms t
23:26:29 <kmc> `run quote kmc | shuf
23:26:32 <HackEgo> 724) <kmc> aim hecker (n): when ur dronk and u pee so bad all over the toilet that ppl make fun of u <kmc> (corruption of "aim heckler") \ 999) <kmc> healthy immune system is a wonderful thing, you gotta take advantage <kmc> sometimes i eat food off the ground just to keep mine on its toes \ 956) <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo_, are you just trying to pos
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23:27:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: you seem to have been whooshed by that quote.
23:28:09 <lexande> oerjan: mostly i am a friend of kmc's from way back. i also know shachaf from Another Place
23:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> oh is the joke that you'll have as much problem as you like
23:28:14 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
23:28:43 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the joke is that it's an allusion to the regexp joke.
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23:29:17 <kmc> `run quote kmc | shuf
23:29:19 <HackEgo> 842) <kmc> i would subscribe to @zzo38_ebooks <zzo38> kmc: I have no ebooks which can subscribe to \ 865) <kmc> i like the idea that if you name your country a Soviet Republic you automatically get the right to call up Lenin on the telephone and complain about bathroom pranks \ 984) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> umm
23:30:18 <kmc> `quote 984
23:30:19 <HackEgo> 984) <kmc> i'm not actually competent at hacking things <elliott> ummmm kmc dont u mean `cracking' [tiny glider symbol with "hacker pride" written next to it in silkscreen] [head of a gnu] [tux penguin] <kmc> [face shoved in toilet]
23:30:52 <kmc> my quote 984?
23:30:57 <kmc> that was kind of kmc.jerkcity.moed++
23:31:04 <Bike> because elliott's a nerdeeee
23:31:12 <kmc> oh why not
23:31:23 <kmc> oerjan started in with the `quote kmc
23:31:29 <kmc> but the earliest quotes are embarassing and bad
23:31:31 <kmc> so i had to shuf them
23:31:44 <oerjan> to get other embarassing quotes.
23:31:46 <kmc> `run quote lexande | wc -l
23:31:50 <kmc> oerjan: but not bad ones!
23:31:56 <Bike> it's beyond me why you would be embarassed by cocks
23:32:02 <lexande> i'm pretty happy with my one quote
23:32:16 <Bike> `quote lexande
23:32:18 <HackEgo> 939) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:32:31 <HackEgo> 939) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
23:32:32 <Bike> i was expecting "<lexande> i'm pretty happy with my one quote"
23:32:53 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
23:33:05 <Bike> tarski, as in "proved reals decideable" tarski, is underappreciated?
23:33:11 <lexande> Phantom_Hoover: but, Tarski undefinability of truth, and Tarski-Vaught test for elementary substructures, and stuff
23:33:19 <Bike> yeah what he said
23:33:26 <Bike> i mean banach's theorem is cool too but c'mon
23:33:40 <lexande> whereas only analysts care about banach mostly
23:34:00 <Bike> maybe you've been spending too much time in infinite-dimensional space, phantom
23:34:12 -!- Sgeo has joined.
23:34:15 <lexande> maybe you've been spending too much time around analysts
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23:34:28 <Bike> yeah, well, which one is closer to this channel
23:35:01 <lexande> what did we ever do to you
23:35:04 <Bike> programmers are confused and scared by reals, man
23:35:11 <kmc> that's because real numbers are /fucked up/
23:35:18 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well you see, since tarski and banach are both half of banach-tarski, they are also equivalent to the whole
23:35:25 <Bike> see like that *points and laughs at kmc*
23:35:57 <Bike> though speaking of unknown hyphenated mathematicians, i only looked up who bendixson was today
23:36:02 <Bike> and i already forgot
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23:36:21 <kmc> good story
23:36:38 <Bike> "As a young student Bendixson made his name by proving that every uncountable closed set can be partitioned into a perfect set (the Bendixson derivative of the original set) and a countable set." deep, apparently
23:37:04 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe he was just trying to get the name bendixson on things
23:37:24 <kmc> mathematicians: taking derivatives of things since 1680
23:37:33 <Bike> well he's mostly known for the "poincaré-bendixson theorem" and poincare is obviously famouser
23:37:56 <kmc> the curry-howard correspondance is the curry-howard-de Bruijn correspondance in .nl
23:38:11 <Bike> it's kind of weird to say someone's name is cool and then complain about their nationality
23:39:04 <Bike> you implied it
23:39:14 <Bike> implying is the new saying
23:39:58 <kmc> "You infer, I imply"
23:40:07 <lexande> Bike: oh, i only heard of him because of cantor-bendixson rank
23:40:21 <Bike> huh i have never heard of that
23:40:33 <Bike> maybe he's more famous than i realized..................
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23:41:01 <elliott> does the "s" actually do anything in "Bendixson"?
23:41:09 <elliott> or is it just like, okay, here's an "s" to help you get over that "x"
23:41:16 <Bike> it says he's son of bendix obviously
23:41:17 <Phantom_Hoover> probably copied other people's work and pretended he discovered it independently
23:41:43 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: well poincare-bendixson was him ironing out an earlier proof by poincare.
23:42:36 <Bike> oh, but it went the opposite way with "bendixson-dulac"
23:43:00 <Bike> maybe mathematics isn't actually driven by single geniuses and a bunch of hangers on........
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23:44:42 <Bike> elliott: seems "bengtsson" is another form
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23:45:58 <Phantom_Hoover> <Bike> maybe mathematics isn't actually driven by single geniuses and a bunch of hangers on........
23:46:17 <Phantom_Hoover> on this general topic can i have 3 minutes of hate for the wolframs
23:46:36 <lexande> elliott: i think the s does something, yes
23:47:33 <Bike> i saw a new kind of science in my uni bookstore, had a good chuckle
23:47:42 <Phantom_Hoover> conrad's now going around doing TED speeches about how terrible maths education is and how we all have to fix it by teaching all the kids with mathematica
23:47:55 <Bike> i love ted talks. they're so bad
23:48:09 <lexande> also elliott you know alice atlas?
23:48:26 <Bike> "Wolfram has been a prominent proponent of 'Computer-Based Math'- a reform of mathematics education to make greater use of information technology. [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]" hmm not sure i buy it better find some more sources
23:48:41 <elliott> lexande: yeah, for 7 years :)
23:48:48 <lexande> yay for the world being small
23:48:55 <Bike> «he argued that "Maths should be more practical and more conceptual, but less mechanical,"[19] and that "Calculating is the machinery of math - a means to an end."» is this even coherent
23:49:30 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: what i've seen of tedx has been way worse than even regular ted
23:49:44 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, keep in mind that vortex math had its big break at a tedx
23:49:57 <mnoqy> i've only seen the vortex math tedx
23:50:14 <kmc> some kind of joke about how singular geniuses are not invertible
23:50:16 <mnoqy> it was a good tedx though
23:50:22 <Bike> the last ted talk i saw was this neuroanatomist going on about the mystic experience she got from a hemorrage
23:50:29 <Bike> what do you even say to that
23:50:39 <Bike> "i'm sorry your brain blew up but i don't care"
23:50:39 <Phantom_Hoover> have you all heard the story about my dad and vortex math
23:50:58 <mnoqy> i vaguely remember something about it but i could be imagining
23:51:39 <lexande> so generally when i hear about such hilariously bad talks they are TEDx but are there notable TED-proper instances?
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23:51:58 <kmc> ... is TEDx like UberX
23:52:04 <Bike> tedx is ted by third parties
23:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> and he was all like "this guy's onto something, i'm interested"
23:52:15 <kmc> a cut rate version of TED where they let random jerkoffs do it
23:52:32 <Bike> lexande: the one i'm talking about was ted proper actually. jill bolte taylor if you want to look it up
23:52:59 <lexande> uberx is fine, so is lyft, cab drivers are not really less jerkoff-y than randoms
23:53:49 <lexande> they are maybe better at driving but not necessarily
23:55:05 <kmc> how is lyft still legal
23:55:11 <kmc> are they really still relying on the "donation" thing
23:55:47 <lexande> aren't they legal the same way uberx is?
23:55:52 <kmc> which way is that
23:55:52 <Bike> what's lyft and why would it be illegal
23:56:10 <lexande> also the donation number is inscrutable
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23:56:26 <lexande> there's no price list or anything
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