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01:28:03 <oerjan> function's nick is constantly variable
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02:16:34 <oerjan> hyphen-ated, the great pharaoh
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02:20:21 <Koen_> `run bf -[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-.
02:20:29 <HackEgo> bash: ]: No such file or directory
02:20:38 <Koen_> `run bf "-[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-."
02:20:39 <HackEgo> bash: bf: command not found
02:20:59 <Koen_> !bf "-[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-"
02:21:08 <oerjan> `interp bf -[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-.
02:21:35 <oerjan> !bf should work but EgoBot isn't feeling very well
02:21:37 <Koen_> according to brainfuck constants wiki page, it's 139
02:21:55 <Koen_> but I don't understand it
02:22:19 <Koen_> the main loop ends on a cell which only holds multiple of three
02:22:54 <Koen_> oh, so it stops at 3*256 (it is late okay)
02:24:03 <Koen_> okay, but the second cell is supposed to hold 2/3 of the content of the first cell, so that's 2*256
02:25:03 <myname> i'm fairly surprised it even terminates
02:25:26 <Koen_> well, the first cell is incremented by 3 every round
02:25:46 <myname> you are going 3 cells to the right every time
02:25:54 <myname> and neber go back to them
02:26:17 <Koen_> the inner loop takes you back to the zeroth cell, which holds a zero
02:26:47 <Koen_> the second cell is incremented by 2 every round, so it should always be 2/3 of the first
02:27:19 <Koen_> and the third cell is always 2 less than the second cell
02:27:59 <Koen_> I really don't see how the result could be 139
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02:51:25 <oerjan> Koen_: ok it's probably 8249 then?
02:52:26 <oerjan> i'm not sure how those char encodings get messed up. wait function should only be writing one byte, anyhow.
02:52:38 <oerjan> oh hm it's windows something not latin-1
02:52:57 <oerjan> so probably has another unicode code point
02:53:13 <oerjan> there you go, it _is_ 139.
02:54:15 <oerjan> Koen_: ok more seriously, the bf in the other bots is _not_ 8-bit.
02:54:33 <oerjan> `interp bf8 -[+>+>+[+<]>+]>-.
02:54:55 <kmc> Extended Brainfuck Coded Decimal Interchange Code
02:55:50 <Koen_> I still don't understand how this works...
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02:56:08 <oerjan> oh ic why it's looking strange. HackEgo prepends its usual zero-width space, which is then followed by a _non_utf8 character. therefore the whole mess gets interpreted in latin1/cp1252.
02:57:09 <oerjan> so the ​ is the zero-width space while the ‹ is the real output.
02:57:31 <myname> what's that space for?
02:57:52 <pikhq> myname: So bots don't interpret its output.
02:59:00 <myname> so, if one is mean he could write a bot that acts on zero-width space
02:59:12 <pikhq> BTW, friends don't let friends use not-UTF-8.
02:59:28 <pikhq> Equivalently, friends don't let friends use Windows. ;)
03:02:40 <oerjan> ok after the first loop iteration it's 0 3 2
03:06:44 <myname> it should always be 0 1,5x x x-2
03:07:00 <myname> you will break if 1,5x = 256
03:07:42 <oerjan> that's what koen_ thought, i think.
03:08:26 <myname> but it would be 169 then
03:08:27 <oerjan> i don't think using 1,5 is a very good idea. 0 3x 2x 2x-2.
03:09:26 <oerjan> myname: no it would be 255.
03:09:32 <myname> did you calculate another iteration?
03:09:38 <oerjan> it happens when x=256.
03:09:55 <myname> at which point 2x should be 17ß
03:09:58 <oerjan> but i think i know where this thinking breaks.
03:10:15 <oerjan> myname: um you aren't using floating point are you.
03:10:25 <oerjan> that's not how wrapping 8-bit bf works.
03:10:34 <oerjan> you need to calculate mod 256.
03:10:55 <myname> it should happen when 3x = 256
03:11:06 <oerjan> but x is an integer, myname
03:11:12 <myname> since 3x is the cell that is pointed at at the end of the loop
03:11:20 <oerjan> it should happen when 3x is a multiple of 256.
03:11:35 <oerjan> which first happens when x is 256.
03:11:47 <oerjan> however i know which point we are ignoring.
03:12:12 <oerjan> namely the inner [+<] loop.
03:12:17 <myname> i don't get wh it shouldn't happen earlier
03:12:43 <oerjan> myname: because x=256 is the smallest integer such that 3x is a multiple of 256.
03:13:23 <oerjan> 0 6 4 2 becomes 0 9 6 4 etc.
03:13:35 <oerjan> but now let's _not_ ignore the inner loop.
03:13:48 <myname> yes, it gets 255 and after that 2
03:14:04 <myname> it breaks there earlier?
03:15:23 <oerjan> at the entrance to the inner loop it goes as 0 7 5 3, 0 10 7 5 etc.
03:15:56 <oerjan> the inner loop will break if any of _those_ hit a multiple of 256.
03:16:54 <oerjan> ok only the first number has a chance of not being odd, so only that can trigger it.
03:17:19 <oerjan> that's a multiple of 3.
03:17:59 <oerjan> > (0, 10+3*82, 7+2*82, 5+2*82)
03:18:32 <myname> so it breaks the inner loop, adds one to 171
03:18:42 <myname> and should use a fifth cell
03:19:31 <oerjan> it gets to the major end of loop with 0 0 173 170
03:21:31 <myname> it starts again with offsets
03:21:46 <oerjan> surely it should increase 3,2,2 again
03:22:26 <myname> it will go up to 256 in the first one again
03:23:14 <oerjan> before inner loop it will start 0 0 174 171 1, 0 0 177 173 3 ...
03:23:18 <myname> it should be 0 0 0 213 43 by then
03:24:21 <oerjan> again all but the first are odd before the inner loop
03:25:12 <oerjan> 174, 176; 177, 179; 180, 182;
03:26:17 <oerjan> hm _neither_ the inner nor the outer loop will hit 256.
03:27:30 <oerjan> so we need to go on to 512, i guess.
03:27:56 <oerjan> 176, which is the outer loop, hits that.
03:28:35 <oerjan> > (176+3*112, 172+2*112, 2+2*112)
03:30:01 <myname> i also learned that you cannot do basic math in head ;p
03:30:25 <myname> i mean, 256 - 10, come on
03:31:08 <myname> 396 - 256 isn't that hard, either
03:31:22 <oerjan> well of course i could do that, but my brain tires fast these days, so it might have meant that i would simply give up at some later point.
03:32:25 <oerjan> and also asking lambdabot means i don't miss my own stupid mistake.
03:32:42 <myname> i know a student who always do mod 5 in ghci
03:33:39 <Bike> i know a student who only does mod 7 with computers instead of in their head.
03:33:43 <Bike> that student... is me.
03:34:03 <myname> mod 5 is trivial to do
03:35:02 * oerjan used to be good at mental arithmetic.
03:35:02 <myname> it's basically if n[-1] > 5 { n[-1] - 5 } else { n[-1] }
03:35:41 <oerjan> now i cannot concentrate worth a damn
03:45:29 <kmc> git rebase -i: a tool assisted speedrun for your code
03:45:58 <Bike> great, now i want to see the git version of the family feud TAS
03:48:57 <kmc> the Mystery Hunt had a puzzle called "Git Hub" where they gave you a Git repo and you eventually realize the commit graph has the same shape as the Boston subway system
03:49:05 <kmc> and then you have to do puzzling things with it
03:49:39 <myname> you need to look at the graph, but nice
04:13:40 * oerjan wonders if this year's nobel prize winner martin karplus is related to esolanger maharba...
04:20:51 <shachaf> You know how you can't select text which is part of a link in browsers in general?
04:21:08 <shachaf> Because the link just gets dragged instead.
04:30:20 <oerjan> "All people with the surname "Karplus" appear to be descendants of Alexander Karplus, who died in June 1797 and was the first to carry the family name "Karplus". The name was created in response to the 1787 requirement of the Austrian Empire that all Jewish families have surnames. No one knows what the name means (if anything)."
04:30:47 <oerjan> so i guess he's definitely _somewhat_ related
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05:42:36 <shachaf> so it's come to my attention that "unique" and "exists" also mean "?" and "+"
05:43:11 <Bike> i mean "?" too
05:43:27 <shachaf> are you suggesting that i'm being bad at communicate
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05:54:27 <Bike> http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v31/n10/fig_tab/nbt.2706_F1.html "hm, this could be a problem"
05:59:26 <kmc> "cumulative PhDs awarded" "cumulative faculty positions" "cumulative PhDs employed by Google to improve advertising algorithms"
06:00:21 <Bike> does google hire many entomologists
06:00:33 <Fiora> monsanto hires those, right
06:00:37 <kmc> to look for bugs?
06:01:46 <Bike> for pesticide things, i imagine
06:01:50 <shachaf> Schillebeeckx is a p. good name
06:02:01 <shachaf> i didn't know you were allowed to have ckx right next to eack other like that
06:04:43 <kmc> my impression is that science grad students spend 90% of their time writing MATLAB code regardless of the notional field they're in
06:04:49 <kmc> this may be inaccurate
06:05:05 <kmc> benefits of working at google: 1) you don't have to use MATLAB
06:05:07 <Bike> of course it is, some of them use R
06:05:24 <lambdabot> What be a priate's favourite cheese?
06:07:32 * oerjan swats lambdabot for misspelling -berg -----###
06:09:18 <shachaf> oerjan: is that where pirates come from
06:11:54 <kmc> i thought they were from penzance
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06:23:35 <fizzie> "In the remainder of this document the term User refers to: ____ (Individual name) and the term User's Research Group refers to: ____ (University, Institute or Company name), ____ (Specific department, area, organizational unit), ____ (Geographic site where material will be used)"
06:23:47 <fizzie> I don't know how an individual person would fill this form.
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07:41:04 <kmc> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ntgLdXV1etk/UJmmHdKIhvI/AAAAAAAAAII/ZtqzsfTIjXI/s1600/2u58bjo.jpg
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08:20:26 <fizzie> "However, some applications require very large amounts of memory. For example, building the models for a large vocabulary continuous speech dictation system might require 150MB or more. Clearly, when memory demands become this large, a proper understanding of the impact of system design decisions on memory usage is important."
08:20:45 <fizzie> (HTK documentation might be slightly old.)
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09:48:10 <fizzie> Heh. If I move (with an IMAP client, on an Exchange server) an (arguably) spam email from the spam folder to INBOX, then after a second or two it automatically goes back to the spam folder.
09:48:35 <fizzie> Other manually moved spam has tended to stay in the inbox; I guess this one is just too spammy.
09:48:58 <fizzie> "X-Spam-Status: HIGH ; 83%" -- well, that is a lot.
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13:33:52 <Taneb> Is there a name for the complement of the empty set?
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13:38:09 <mnoqy> complement relative to what?
13:39:46 <mnoqy> well, set complement is always relative to something.
13:40:26 <mnoqy> the complement of the empty set will of course be "that thing" so what you want to call it depends on what you're doing
13:40:45 <Taneb> So I could say the co-empty set relative to something
13:42:05 <mnoqy> no matter what set thingy or universe or whatever you're working with (let's call it A), A \setminus \emptyset is just A
13:43:08 <mnoqy> say if you're talking about a topological space, the complement of the empty set might be called "the whole space" because it's the whole space.
13:43:14 <boily> is there an universal empty set from which you could derive other lesser empty sets?
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13:45:40 <Taneb> What made me ask this is I suddenly realised boolean algebra is kind of like set theory
13:48:19 <Taneb> Shortly after asking the question I realised I could just use the singleton set containing only the empty set
13:48:36 <mnoqy> to represent truth? yes
13:48:44 <mnoqy> and then complements can be relative to that
13:49:47 <Taneb> Well, I'm going now
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14:00:21 <NeroReflex> i can' t understand if my project could be considered an esoteric IDE
14:09:21 <boily> NeroReflex: two questions: were you already `relcommed, and does your project run on linux?
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14:14:57 <NeroReflex> boily what is "relcommed" and: the project will be released for linux too but the project is in development and i didn' t developed the main method
14:15:21 <Fiora> `relcome NeroReflex
14:15:29 <HackEgo> NeroReflex: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:16:39 <Fiora> people here like to spam welcomes to anyone they notice is new <.<;;
14:17:40 <boily> it's not spam >_>'...
14:17:45 <NeroReflex> i can' t understand if i am creating an esoteric language or not
14:18:37 <NeroReflex> i think it is, because no one should use it for professional development, but it is not a joke
14:19:05 <NeroReflex> i am not sure of what i am creating asd
14:21:25 <boily> just a moment, checking that out...
14:23:52 <boily> eeeeeeeh... I'd say it is both esoteric and not esoteric.
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14:24:38 <boily> it is, because you're emulating an exotic theoretic architecture, and it is not because university students tend to suffer through the same kind of task, namely emulating architectures.
14:25:33 <NeroReflex> ok xD thanks, so when the project will be completed you will se it on the wiki xD
14:26:58 <boily> Si dovrebbe tradurre tutti i vostri commenti in inglese :p
14:27:41 <boily> I found one in targetver.h.
14:28:09 <NeroReflex> targetver.h is generated by Visual Studio, and i don' t use it xD
14:28:44 <NeroReflex> boily, have you got some complex brainfuck program to test? (and also some less complex one)
14:29:52 <boily> I'm very bad when it comes to brainfuck... you should ask one of the experts on this channel.
14:30:11 <boily> btw, who's the Current Bfjoust Champion?
14:31:09 <boily> NeroReflex: talk to either ais523, quintopia, Lymia or Gregor, probably.
14:31:26 <NeroReflex> oh ok, the fact is that i written a brainfuck interpreter in javascript but i think that the speed is not good :/
14:31:30 <boily> Fiora: how would you rate your Mad Brainfuck Skillz?
14:32:42 <NeroReflex> boily did you write an esoteric programming language?
14:32:54 <boily> Java being stupid is a nice thing. you don't have to think about annoying syntactic corner cases, everything is predictable (and verbose, but that's another subject).
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14:33:13 <boily> NeroReflex: I wrote some → http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Boily
14:34:35 <NeroReflex> anyway "zucchini" is the same as an italian?
14:35:43 <boily> probably. the small dark green long vegetable without much of a taste?
14:40:37 <Fiora> boily: ummmm I've never done anything except a bfjoust program
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14:49:27 <nortti> https://torrentfreak.com/riaa-wants-web-browsers-to-block-pirate-sites-and-more-130918/
14:55:17 <Taneb> I am afraid I am too aware of my positive feedback loop wrt RIAA to comment
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14:58:42 <NeroReflex> boily can you understand regex algorythms?
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15:00:30 <boily> NeroReflex: perhaps. maybe. possibly.
15:02:05 <boily> are you talking about DFA and suchlike?
15:02:58 <NeroReflex> i am tolking about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression
15:04:05 <boily> oh, if it's only about using regexpes, then yes, I tend to understand them.
15:04:22 <boily> (except that time I wrote a recursive regexp in PHP. that hurt my brain.)
15:05:15 <NeroReflex> what do you think about an esoteric programming that could sobstitute php?
15:05:16 <Bike> regexes are often implemented with DFAs, is what boilly is referring to
15:05:40 <Bike> there are already some esoteric languages based on string replacement, like Thue and ///
15:05:45 <Bike> deterministic finite automata
15:06:16 <Bike> NeroReflex: http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html
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15:18:28 <NeroReflex> boily did you see the BareMetal Project?
15:19:38 <NeroReflex> someone know about the C++11 to_string() in visual studio 2013? I can' t find it
15:21:03 <Bike> we only program in ultrahaskell around these parts
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15:21:55 <Bike> it's like regular haskell, but no values are instantiated, you have to do everything with the type system.
15:22:08 <NeroReflex> so you aren' t interested on C++ or assembly?
15:22:59 <Bike> they are impure. i am only interested in programming languages approved by our father who art in heaven, as represented by the vatican.
15:23:25 * boily shushes Bike with artfully applied Duct Tape
15:23:36 <boily> (with respect to Japanese æsthetics, mind you.)
15:23:43 <Bike> Mmmmf mmrgh rmmmghf grhgh.
15:23:55 <boily> NeroReflex: we are interested in just about everything, except brainfuck derivatives.
15:24:41 <boily> NeroReflex: you haven't talked to elliott yet, haven't you?
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15:33:25 <boily> why does my bot keep dying today? that's unnerving.
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15:33:45 <NeroReflex> [17:24] <boily> NeroReflex: we are interested in just about everything, except brainfuck derivatives. lol how many derivatives did you saw during your life?
15:34:34 <metasepia> LIRF 101520Z 22010KT 190V250 9999 SCT025 21/16 Q1011 NOSIG
15:34:40 <NeroReflex> you don' t simply like it or there is a motivation
15:35:24 <Bike> they're uncreative. since they're all brainfuck but with different names for the operations.
15:36:03 <Bike> it's like taking Don Quixote and renaming everybody except Rozinante and calling it a new novel.
15:36:36 <Bike> oh, that's not the horses' name. wlel whatever
15:37:22 <NeroReflex> OH NO I AM STUPID! I DIDN' T USE STACK AND NOW EVERYTHING IS SLOW
15:38:45 <NeroReflex> how much stupid i am -.-" i used a complex algorithm instead of stack
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16:53:27 <boily> hello, my name is Alexandre, and I am a fentimanholic.
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17:34:26 <boily> random keyboardian question: where can I get a list of all possible available shifts in X?
17:34:42 <boily> (stuff like ctrl, shift, meta, ISO level 5, etc...)
17:36:17 <olsner> I think someone here knows that
17:37:06 -!- Bike has joined.
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17:39:55 <boily> olsner: but the only other someone here left the chännel. you're all someones over there for me!
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17:44:40 <impomatic> Why's everyone hating on bf derivatives? :-(
17:45:12 <Bike> because they're boring and killed archduke ferdinand
17:46:11 <ais523> there are good BF derivatives
17:46:14 <ais523> there are just a lot more bad ones
17:47:13 <NeroReflex> have you got some bf programs to test?
17:47:36 <NeroReflex> and tell me about the time it takes on my interpreter
17:47:51 <ais523> I'm not particularly prolific as a BF programmer
17:48:01 <ais523> I do BF Joust more, which is kind-of different in terms of benchmarking it
17:48:27 <impomatic> - increment the byte at the data pointer
17:48:28 <impomatic> + decrement the byte at the data pointer
17:48:28 <impomatic> , output the byte at the data pointer
17:48:28 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:15: parse error on input `data'
17:48:29 <impomatic> ] if the data pointer points to zero, jump to the matching [
17:48:30 <impomatic> [ if the data pointer points to nonzero, jump to the matching ]
17:48:30 <impomatic> ^ change polarity, switch < with > and - with +
17:48:45 <ais523> impomatic: apart from ^, I think that's already been invented
17:49:02 <ais523> and it isn't massively interesting in any case
17:49:18 <impomatic> It's got ^ though, so it's a new language!
17:49:27 <ais523> yes, but I'm not sure that makes it an /interesting/ new language
17:49:29 <Bike> "a new and boring language"
17:49:56 * impomatic goes away to create a FALSE derivative :-)
17:50:20 <ais523> I did make /ˈæmbiːɛf/ <http://esolangs.org/wiki//%CB%88%C3%A6mbi%CB%90%C9%9Bf/>, along similar lines
17:50:27 <ais523> but that's more interesting because it's not obvious whether it's TC or not
17:50:42 <ais523> whereas yours is just BF with an extra instruction, and one that doesn't make it uncomputable
17:50:48 <ais523> thus there's no big mystery about the computational class
17:51:53 * boily goes away to create an impomatic derivative :D
17:52:47 <impomatic> Has someone already invented bf with a time traveling instruction pointer?
17:53:06 <NeroReflex> ais523 a brainfuck intresting mod could be a mod where a "new" type of memory is used, for example a stack
17:53:21 <ais523> impomatic: I don't think so
17:53:35 <ais523> NeroReflex: like http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF-PDA?
17:54:20 <boily> fungot: do you derivate brains?
17:54:20 <fungot> boily: you think ( probably so) that you'll get much out of courses until after these two. and not an else in there)
17:54:30 <ais523> IMO the way to make an interesting BF derivative is to screw with the control flow in a way that means the standard techniques don't work
17:54:38 <ais523> I guess what I care about in esolanging is that there isn't an obvious way to write programs
17:54:42 <ais523> BF wasn't obvious once, but it is nowadays
17:55:14 <NeroReflex> ais523, no in this mod there isn' t a turing machine concept, it is not BF anymore
17:55:37 <ais523> NeroReflex: yeah, BF-PDA is interesting as a baseline for push-down automata
17:55:49 <ais523> just like regular BF is interesting as a baseline for TC systems with I/O
17:56:05 <ais523> but with one stack, it's hard to make something that isn't an uninteresting push-down automaton deriv…
17:56:31 <NeroReflex> a stack machine is not useful as a turing machine
17:58:53 <ais523> well, it depends on how complex the stack elements are
17:59:05 <ais523> something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload is TC despite only having one stack
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18:04:59 <NeroReflex> "Swap the top two elements of the stack" this is not a LIFO stack
18:06:06 -!- asie has joined.
18:06:32 <boily> jackpot. wasn't it asked that I should convert IATA into ICAO codes when querying ~metars?
18:07:23 <boily> http://www.weathergraphics.com/identifiers/
18:07:48 <boily> ↑ this list roxxorzes the meteorological socksen.
18:12:06 <ais523> NeroReflex: it's TC even without that
18:12:15 <ais523> also, it only looks at a finite amount of the top of the stack
18:12:18 <ais523> so it still looks LIFO
18:13:16 <NeroReflex> if i do the swap operation the first output is not the last value pushed
18:15:37 <ski> how do you take the derivative of BF ?
18:15:46 <ski> some variant of regular expression derivative ?
18:21:18 <ais523> NeroReflex: well a swap is equivalent to pop, pop, push, push
18:21:34 <ais523> using intermediate storage for the stored value
18:21:45 <ais523> in BF-PDA, you use the program's control flow as the intermediate storage
18:22:30 <ski> kmc : re Rust unsafeness, have you seen the impurity declarations in Mercury, <http://www.mercurylang.org/information/doc-latest/mercury_ref/Impurity.html> ?
18:24:10 <lexande> http://i.imgur.com/LfqyX3p.gif
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18:50:45 <ais523> wow, Azerbaijan accidentally released the results from this week's elections the days before the polls opened
18:52:59 <olsner> poor guys, now they have to regenerate all that fake election data
18:53:08 <fizzie> [[ The commission explained the gaffe by saying that a software developer had released the figures as a "test" at one polling station. It apologized for the "misunderstanding." ]]
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18:53:50 <fizzie> olsner: They already had the "real" election, with an even bigger win for the guy, so I guess they did regenerate it.
18:54:30 <boily> too simple and logical. I believe that the True Version comes from a temporal paradox!
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18:58:44 <Bike> i like the part where they say it was 2008 results even though it had the people running in 2013
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19:00:42 <olsner> that part might well be true, using runners from 2013 (because those are the ones that will run) and numbers from some other year does make sense as test data
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19:01:18 <olsner> assuming you don't have this year's numbers yet
19:03:16 <impomatic> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
19:04:30 <ion> @karma blah
19:05:11 <impomatic> Sorry. Was carry the laptop and a few books from office to house!
19:05:58 <ais523> clearly lambdabot wasn't here at the time
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19:15:12 <metasepia> Error (1): No instance for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 a0 -> m0 b0))
19:15:13 <metasepia> arising from a use of `M9487173991581741433654.show_M9487173991581741433654'
19:15:13 <metasepia> add an instance declaration for (GHC.Show.Show (m0 a0 -> m0 b0))No instance for (GHC.Base.Monad m0) arising from a use of `e_1'
19:15:13 <metasepia> The type variable `m0' is ambiguous
19:15:13 <metasepia> Possible fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s)
19:15:13 <metasepia> Note: there are several potential instances:
19:15:14 <metasepia> instance GHC.Base.Monad ((->) r) -- Defined in `base:GHC.Base'
19:15:14 <metasepia> instance GHC.Base.Monad GHC.Types.IO -- Defined in `base:GHC.Base'
19:15:15 <metasepia> instance GHC.Base.Monad [] -- Defined in `base:GHC.Base'
19:15:26 <boily> oh. yeah. chännel flood.
19:16:53 <kmc> woah it's ski
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19:17:14 <kmc> Rust used to have pure / impure for functions as well, but we removed it
19:17:26 <kmc> I think partly because nobody could agree on what exactly "pure" means (this happens in Haskell as well)
19:17:36 <kmc> but I'm not sure of all the reasons; it was long before my time
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19:32:48 <ais523> kmc: gcc defines two sorts of purity for functions, which basically are to do with how aggressively the function can be cached
19:33:30 <ais523> one is basically "this function is 100% memoizable", the other is basically "this function is 100% memoizable except if global variables change values"
19:34:25 <ski> i was mainly thinking about possible similarities between the impurity system in Mercury, and the unsafeness system in Rust (which i don't have a clear understanding of)
19:35:13 <ais523> if you define it in terms of safe memoizability it's unambiguous how it works wrt effects, at least
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19:37:50 <kmc> ais523: yeah
19:39:06 <kmc> ski: the Rust system is very simple afaik. certain primitive operations (e.g. deref a raw pointer) are only allowed in unsafe code, which means either an 'unsafe fn' or inside an unsafe { ... } block
19:39:16 <kmc> and you can only call an 'unsafe fn' from unsafe code, as well
19:39:33 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/rust.html#unsafety
19:40:54 <kmc> in fact I think dereferencing a raw pointer is the only primitive unsafe operation; others are exposed as compiler intrinsics that look like normal unsafe fn's
19:41:28 <kmc> e.g. cast::transmute and its friends in http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/std/cast/index.html
19:42:35 <kmc> "This is a list of behaviour not considered unsafe in Rust terms, but that may be undesired... Accessing/modifying the file system"
19:42:48 <kmc> cool, signed overflow is defined in Rust
19:44:34 <ais523> kmc: as 2's complement?
19:46:40 <kmc> ais523: yes
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19:50:06 <kmc> i'm pretty sure raw pointers could be a library type + intrinsics too (as in Haskell)
19:51:22 <kmc> but I like that low level unsafe code in Rust doesn't get a lot more verbose than C
19:52:14 <ais523> kmc: if you're aiming to replace C, that's probably correct
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19:54:14 <kmc> we're aiming to replace C++, which is another language where you do low-level stuff to implement higher level memory-safe abstractions, and then use those
19:54:43 <kmc> the difference being 1) the memory safety in C++ comes from following a bunch of idioms and isn't checked by the compiler
19:54:56 <kmc> 2) people mostly don't bother and just treat C++ as C with random other shit thrown in
19:55:03 <kmc> which is a shame
19:55:12 <kmc> but High Church C++ can be pretty fucking cumbersome
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19:55:17 <ais523> kmc: I've seen conflicting statements on 2)
19:55:27 <ais523> although that definitely seems true in the games industry
19:55:38 <kmc> yeah it varies a lot between codebases
19:55:59 <kmc> and C++ isn't very good about letting you pick and choose features
19:56:19 <kmc> if you want to "do it right" then you're quickly sucked into using everything
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19:58:09 <ais523> kmc: you're giving me bad memories of arguing with C++ fanboys now
20:00:04 <ais523> NeroReflex: my line was in response to <kmc> if you want to "do it right" then you're quickly sucked into using everything
20:00:08 <ais523> a statement which I agree with
20:00:13 <ais523> but many C++ fanboys don't seem to
20:00:38 <kmc> this is why I say C++ is bad in the opposite way of most bad languages
20:00:45 <kmc> PHP is not cohesive enough; C++ is too cohesive
20:01:25 <kmc> it's this ornate structure built by very clever people and it all makes sense but it's a pain to actually live there
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20:01:46 <kmc> the frank gehry building of languages
20:01:51 <NeroReflex> oh, well, you must use the language that is more adapt
20:02:47 <NeroReflex> i dont' t think there are a "right" way of doing something, but only way to do it better than others
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20:03:02 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
20:03:12 <Bike> what's the fitness landscape for languages look like
20:04:37 <mnoqy> fitness landscape covered in gym mats and pools of sweat
20:05:54 <mnoqy> fitness landscape that's just a really big arm flexing. constructing house on fitness landscape is not advised
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21:28:02 <kmc> there are not enough bonghits in the world for this makefile
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21:38:36 <lexande> kmc: did you exhaust them all? have we passed peak bonghits?
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21:41:17 <kmc> bonghits are a renewable resource
21:41:24 <shachaf> perhaps there were never enough in the first place
21:41:37 <shachaf> do you need uncountably many
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22:16:29 <oerjan> Taneb: in set theory the empty set has no universal complement, since that would be a set of all sets, from which you can easily derive russell's paradox with the other axioms.
22:17:00 <oerjan> naive set theory had one, of course, and was inconsistent.
22:17:48 <oerjan> (zfc set theory, that is.)
22:18:50 <oerjan> nor can any other set have a ... right ... because you could just take their union.
22:19:11 <myname> i do think, in linguistik there is the opponent of ""
22:19:26 <myname> i.e. whatever string you match against it, it is the same
22:19:46 <myname> you need that to make a group for finite automata
22:20:05 <oerjan> myname: well .* is the universal regular expression, if that's what you're saying.
22:20:41 <oerjan> there's no problem making a complement of languages over an alphabet, since strings over an alphabet form a set.
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22:26:51 <Koen_> I bet the complement of a nice programming language is all but nice
22:27:28 <Koen_> ouh, new challenge: make up two programming languages that are each other's complement
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22:29:29 <Koen_> hmm I guess it you take brainfuck, the complement over +-><[]., is the set of strings with unmatched [ and ]... so you'd just need to find a way to give some sense to unmatched brackets
22:30:38 <myname> i bet it's way easier to make that work with a language of just 2 symbols
22:32:16 <Bike> who needs sense, just define "~brainfuck is the language of all strings with unmatched brackets" and let someone else figure out what it's for!
22:38:25 <Bike> "Ghost_Of_MNG bot banned from Mozilla IRC #developers. Ghost_Of_JNG shows up in its place. Whoever is doing this: well played."
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22:59:35 <oerjan> Bike: are both of these formats they refuse to support (i recall the first one is)
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23:07:40 <olsner> taneb, tanflo, never a miscommunication
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23:09:36 <oerjan> imagine if tides were completely unpredictable.
23:10:41 <ais523> oerjan: due to the moon moving around the earth at random rather than orbiting?
23:10:48 <oerjan> of course in this world there would _still_ be someone using that as evidence of god.
23:11:09 <oerjan> ais523: i guess that would be one way.
23:13:57 <oerjan> Koen_: btw we solved the 139 mystery yesterday
23:15:07 <oerjan> the trick is that at one point, the _inner_ loop stops on a different cell.
23:15:36 <ais523> Unicode has washing instruction symbols?
23:15:40 <Koen_> because we reach 0, right
23:17:06 <oerjan> ais523: is that related to the ‹, which is just a single non-utf8 byte
23:17:26 <oerjan> also, in retrospect it probably does.
23:17:30 <ais523> oerjan: it's Konversation, its wide range of failure modes is kind-of larger than can easily fit into a human brain
23:17:38 <ais523> let me copy-and-paste what I saw:
23:18:17 <oerjan> well that's not what i saw from fungot.
23:18:17 <fungot> oerjan: i was hoping to see something like embedded assembly though ( like 4bit rot) this sounds impossible, it happens; some programs have been written on. :d
23:18:32 <ais523> oerjan: I was wondering if it'd copy-and-paste back as malformed Unicode
23:19:34 <ais523> the character doesn't render in Firefox
23:19:44 <ais523> and causes an error when entered into Wikipedia's search box
23:19:54 <ais523> which is the normal method of determining what a weird Unicode character is
23:19:56 <oerjan> i saw fungot's as a left-ward pointing variation of ^ and so was what i pasted although the first was probably not utf-8 while my paste was. yours i saw as reverse video K
23:19:56 <fungot> oerjan: a simple, programmable mouseless editor, though.) ( 200 0.) ( 2 y))
23:20:13 <ais523> "An error has occurred while searching: The search backend returned an error: "
23:21:00 <oerjan> ais523: it's byte 139, which i guess isn't legal latin1 but i set irssi to use cp1252 as fallback which people recommended.
23:21:22 <oerjan> and then it becomes the left arrowhead.
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23:22:27 <oerjan> ais523: i think your paste stripped the 8th bit.
23:22:41 <Koen_> every time you use a calculator to do a simple subtraction, something breaks in my heart
23:22:51 <Bike> oh, deal with it, ya baby.
23:22:58 <oerjan> Koen_: i do it to bloody demonstrate
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23:54:36 <oerjan> <Bike> it's like taking Don Quixote and renaming everybody except Rozinante and calling it a new novel. <-- Sir Backquote Fighting the Solar Panels
23:56:28 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> hello, my name is Alexandre, and I am a fentimanholic. <-- i suggest moving to hexham to get better access. i hear there's a recent opening.
23:56:59 <oerjan> i'm sure Taneb won't mind boily getting his old room.