00:00:08 <Taneb> Man, I miss Fentimans
00:00:20 <Taneb> Actually, I think I miss liquid in general
00:00:23 <Taneb> Maybe I'm just thirsty
00:00:47 <oerjan> so they don't have fentimans in york, i take.
00:01:00 <oerjan> only in hexham and montreal
00:01:03 <Taneb> I don't know about that
00:01:09 <Taneb> Just I'm on a student budget now
00:06:21 <oerjan> <impomatic> ^ change polarity, switch < with > and - with + <-- i think it would be a bit more interesting if it also swapped [ and ].
00:07:09 <oerjan> because that, unlike the others, might mess things up badly.
00:11:08 <oerjan> eek indian ocean monster cyclone
00:13:56 <ais523> oerjan: doesn't it automatically make the program malformed unless it contains no loops?
00:14:08 -!- Bike has joined.
00:14:13 <ais523> I guess you could use the implied loop-balancing rules from FukYorBrane
00:14:25 <oerjan> well i assume it would be somewhat lenient
00:14:33 <lexande> mismatched brackets cause monster cyclones? shit
00:14:56 <lexande> forgive us, we didn't know
00:15:38 <oerjan> ^bf ((])S:^):^IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT
00:15:46 <oerjan> ^ul ((])S:^):^IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD AS YOU KNOW IT
00:15:46 <fungot> ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] ...too much output!
00:17:58 <lexande> well, i have never known the future
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00:19:47 <Taneb> Hmm, that underload interp is non-compliant
00:21:19 <oerjan> since there's absolutely no point in a compliant one.
00:22:23 <oerjan> you cannot quote the one thing that actually _needs_ to be handled with quoting.
00:28:45 <oerjan> i recall ais523 said the quoting was just leftovers from overload or something.
00:29:04 <ais523> in Underload you used square brackets for pointers and pointer targets
00:29:34 <Taneb> ais523, how is Underlambda going
00:30:22 <Taneb> How is your thingy going about the circuits and whatnot
00:31:42 <ais523> although I've got to do a bunch of category theory again tonight :(
00:31:49 <ais523> category theory makes me angry
00:32:08 <Taneb> Today I was formally introduced to functions
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00:33:51 <oerjan> i hope the functions were polite.
00:34:27 <ais523> oerjan: somewhere between 1/3 and 1/5 were, I imagine
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00:36:11 <shachaf> did i make ais523 angry :'(
00:39:23 <Bike> https://twitter.com/neilfws/status/388462601916542976/photo/1/large something went very wrong here
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00:43:47 <oerjan> are you talking about the formatting
00:44:37 <oerjan> it does seem like some columns are mushed together
00:46:37 <oerjan> also what is an arath.
00:46:44 <oerjan> and should we be afraid of it.
00:52:54 <Sgeo> "In the case of purchasing, a player makes a request for purchasing an item at a given price, and will pay that price to the order with the lowest listed price. In other words, you will buy the item at your price and not the seller's price if yours is higher than his sell price"
00:52:58 <Sgeo> That's about EVE Online
00:53:05 <Sgeo> How does that compare/contrast to how it works irl?
00:53:28 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
00:53:46 <kmc> it seems opposite
00:54:21 <kmc> I think trades usually happen at the price already on the book, not at the price of the order which is taking liquidity (and so will never reach the order book)
00:54:38 <kmc> because I mean if you're paying attention you would just ask for the lower price anyway
00:55:06 <kmc> but you might not be fast enough, plus there are all these weird order types to consider (hidden, floating, etc)
00:55:09 <kmc> so I dunno
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01:09:19 <Sgeo> Hmm, I wonder why EVE does it the way it does, then. More onus on.. the second person to be smart?
01:10:02 <coppro> Sgeo: like, the stock market?
01:10:38 <Sgeo> I don't know how markets work :(
01:15:47 <Sgeo> ....WIndows Defender decided that an SQLite3 journal file used by my IRC client was malware
01:16:05 <kmc> maybe it has some malware in
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01:16:23 <kmc> X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H*
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01:37:08 <oerjan> kmc: i'm happy to report that my browser did _not_ suddenly decide today's logs were a virus.
01:37:23 <kmc> I think it has to appear at the start of a file
01:37:28 <kmc> I'll be sure to send it exactly at midnight next time.
01:46:47 <oerjan> someone claimed the 2.5% yearly inflation means doubling in 28 years
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02:47:13 <Sgeo> o.O there's a person who doesn't like the lens library
02:47:30 <Sgeo> <= Netsplit between *.net and *.split. Users quit: Bike, sebbu, AwfulProgrammer, olsner
02:49:27 <Sgeo> => Netsplit between *.net and *.split ended. Users joined: Bike, olsner, AwfulProgrammer, sebbu
02:49:39 <Sgeo> _after_ Bike said Yo
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03:21:19 <Sgeo> So, I went into a channel which would be the most relevant channel for a language, and asked why the language exists
03:25:31 <kmc> http://mccaine.org/2013/10/09/dwarf-fortress-a-marxist-analysis/
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03:39:02 <Sgeo> And... no one here bothered to fall for it --- I was referring to the "racket/gui" language in Racket, which is just Racket + (require racket/gui)
03:42:12 <oerjan> how tremendously exciting.
03:42:42 <oerjan> i see elliott agrees, and on perfect time too.
03:44:49 <oerjan> i am eagerly waiting about sgeo telling us how he willfully splits infinitives to rile up other channels.
03:48:38 <Sgeo> *to pathetically rile
03:49:47 <oerjan> darn i actually missed that one
03:50:29 <oerjan> i knew i'd get bad karma from this.
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04:37:10 <oerjan> yo, infographic http://xkcd.com/1276/
04:38:31 <kmc> that's cool
04:40:24 <Bike> I didn't thing Voyager's shadow would be so big.
04:48:59 <Sgeo> "(permadeath)"?
04:49:26 <Bike> planet of the roguelikes
04:53:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: those wacky names are references to http://xkcd.com/1253/
04:56:45 <Bike> goldenpalace.com, that's classy
04:58:54 <Bike> http://i.somethingawful.com/u/livestock/2009/11/11_17_dogs.jpg related
05:06:29 <kmc> joke ruined by incorrect choice of image compression format
05:06:43 <Bike> LARGE, FLIGHTLESS DOG
05:06:55 <kmc> hm somehow I missed #1253
05:07:12 <oerjan> kmc has this rare condition that makes him unable to read jpg compressed text.
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05:16:37 * oerjan now learned about goldenpalace.com. and that they _would_ be likely to try to get a planet named after them.
05:17:37 <kmc> wow a naked woman holding some playing cards wants to give me €300
05:17:41 <kmc> this is the best day ever!!
05:24:55 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1539
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06:17:07 <lexande> "We regret to inform you that we do not allow residents from New York to play on our system"
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07:31:25 <oerjan> ais523_: while i'm checking out r/friends, the fact that 2^31-1 is prime is used implicitly by my Unlambda in Intercal.
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09:07:24 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
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10:23:37 <Taneb> Good things to hear in a lecture: "Forget everything I just said"
10:26:02 <Taneb> This is a fun lecture
10:32:09 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
10:32:51 <Taneb> He's trying to remember set theory
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10:33:19 <Taneb> ("He" being the lecturer)
10:35:48 <Taneb> It's going over stuff we've already done, but /practical/
10:36:35 <Taneb> It is abstract too
10:36:49 <Taneb> Set theory and what have you
10:37:16 <Taneb> Just basic abstract, done boringly
10:38:48 <Taneb> Endless bloody sets
10:40:32 <Taneb> Next week we move to functions
10:41:14 <mnoqy> i guess this is an introductory course? nobody's supposed to know math
10:41:34 <Taneb> Oh look he's proving intersection is associative using a venn diagram
10:42:07 <Phantom___Hoover> and a-level is pointlessly modular, too, so they can't even assume you learnt a given thing at a-level
10:43:27 <Taneb> How do you know this PH you are practically foreign
10:44:20 <Phantom___Hoover> because i'm sitting around with people who all did different things at a-level and have had to re-learn them for the benefit of those who didn't
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11:28:00 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover: :/
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13:42:30 <Taneb> How do I prove that in radians sin x ~= x when x =~= 0?
13:44:35 <boily> when x → 0, d(sin(x))/dx ~= 1.
13:45:53 <boily> @tell oerjan but it's expensive! and I don't think there are that many phở joints in hexham.
13:46:18 <Taneb> What's that glyph after the ph
13:46:49 <boily> just a moment... ♪
13:48:15 <boily> U+1EDF LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH HORN AND HOOK ABOVE
13:48:51 <Taneb> No, I can't remember any phở joints in Hexham
13:48:54 <fizzie> Still missing the reverse of `unicode, I see.
13:48:57 <Taneb> Maybe one's opened, though
13:50:45 <boily> the more diacritics stacked on vowels, the tastier the szoup.
13:53:29 <HackEgo> [LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH HORN AND HOOK ABOVE]
13:54:00 <fizzie> (With any luck, someone had already added that in. Oh well, it's good to be redundant.)
13:54:45 <fizzie> `run unicode SNOWMAN | xargs unidecode
13:55:23 <fizzie> A snowman went through a pipe there, but no-one saw it.
13:55:54 <boily> I never understood what xargs is for.
13:56:07 <HackEgo> [INSERTION SYMBOL] [NORTH WEST ARROW TO CORNER] [UPWARDS ARROW WITH DOUBLE STROKE] [ERASE TO THE RIGHT] [SOUTH EAST ARROW TO CORNER] [DOWNWARDS ARROW WITH DOUBLE STROKE]
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13:56:21 <fizzie> It's for piping snowmans.
13:56:34 <boily> `learn xargs is for piping snowmen.
13:56:45 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
13:57:22 <myname> boily: xargs is awesome in combination with find or ls
13:57:36 <boily> myname: ah? care to explain why?
13:58:08 <fizzie> `run unidecode ☯ # now with code points
13:58:25 <myname> people somewhere else really needed to know which paths are longer than 255 chars, because windows is stupid
13:58:31 <myname> how would you do that?
14:00:23 <boily> find -type d | grep -E '.{256,}'
14:00:46 <fizzie> boily: I don't think "paths" involves only directories.
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14:01:35 <myname> tricky :D okay, a bit modified: you want to know how long each path is
14:02:00 <myname> okay, you don't need it for that, either
14:02:49 <boily> fizzie: find -type b -o -type c -o -type d -o -type p -o -type f -o -type l -o -type s -o -type D, then :p
14:03:10 <fizzie> Arguably many uses of "find | xargs" should be "find -exec" instead, it's just that the -exec syntax is kinda crummy.
14:03:24 <fizzie> I've gotten to the habit of "find -print0 | xargs -0" instead.
14:04:31 -!- Uguubee111116 has quit (Client Quit).
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14:04:56 <boily> btw, what is a door?
14:05:09 <fizzie> It's a Solaris IPC thing.
14:07:04 <fizzie> You can have a server behind a door, and then have clients call it and pass things through it; and the door can be visible in the file system. Kind of something between (non-abstract-namespace) Unix domain sockets and a RPC mechanism.
14:07:46 <boily> sounds pretty useful. there must be some reason it hasn't gained more visibility.
14:08:23 <fizzie> I guess it's also a swinging or sliding barrier that will close the entrance to a room or building or vehicle?
14:09:08 <boily> that kind of door is there for physics teachers to try to quantum tunnel through.
14:09:42 <fizzie> I think it just didn't have enough benefits over "traditional" mechanisms to accomplish the same thing to quantum tunnel outside Solaris.
14:10:10 <boily> but then, we're stuck with horrendous abominations like d-bus and suchlike.
14:10:29 <fizzie> You can pass file descriptors through a door, but you can do that over Unix domain sockets too. And there's a library written around it, but you can write libraries around anything.
14:11:29 <HackEgo> [U+263A WHITE SMILING FACE]
14:11:44 <fizzie> That doesn't look very white in this terminal.
14:12:15 <boily> them pixels drawing the face are somewhat white in this terminal, I guess... (what colourscheme do I use again?)
14:12:23 <fizzie> Oh would you look at that, I need to catch a
14:12:27 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'BUS'"
14:12:41 <fizzie> (That thing is so useless. That's U+1F68C.)
14:14:13 <boily> hmm... urxvt/weechat seem to have some trouble with chars outside the BMP...
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14:24:19 <fizzie> My urxvt/irssi setup, too.
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14:24:56 <fizzie> Also I got some surrogates out when I tried to paste one to Unidecode, which is the silliest.
14:25:53 <fizzie> (Did Java's Modified-UTF-8 use UTF-8-encoded surrogates?
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15:14:16 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 5, in <module> \ print u"".join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode("utf-8") \ KeyError: "undefined character name 'POULET'"
15:15:24 <oerjan> <Taneb> How do I prove that in radians sin x ~= x when x =~= 0? <-- i recall from some discussion that it's quite tricky to do from the intuitive geometric definitions without being circular.
15:15:51 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 29m 57s ago: but it's expensive! and I don't think there are that many phở joints in hexham.
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15:17:50 <oerjan> Taneb: of course from the power series definition of sin x it's "trivial".
15:21:06 <oerjan> wtf did this get a commit http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/7003033326b8
15:22:02 <oerjan> oh wait i see, it was with `run probably, so some of the >'s got shell interpreted
15:22:18 <HackEgo> + \ +[+ \ bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
15:22:49 <oerjan> myname: see my previous link
15:23:21 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
15:24:32 <boily> `run echo -e "#!/usr/bin/env python\n# -*- encoding: utf-8 -*-\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\ntry:\n print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8')\nexcept KeyError:\n print u'Úńḱńóẃń ćh́áŕáćt́éŕ.'" >bin/unicode
15:24:42 <boily> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A
15:24:51 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/unicode", line 8, in <module> \ print u'Úńḱńóẃń ćh́áŕáćt́éŕ.' \ UnicodeEncodeError: 'ascii' codec can't encode characters in position 0-6: ordinal not in range(128)
15:24:55 <oerjan> boily: um what did you change
15:25:21 <boily> oerjan: tried to add a try/except for `unicode not to choke on a KeyError.
15:25:36 <boily> `run echo -e "#!/usr/bin/env python\n# -*- encoding: utf-8 -*-\nimport sys\nimport unicodedata\ntry:\n print u''.join(map(unicodedata.lookup, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8')\nexcept KeyError:\n print u'Unknown character.'" >bin/unicode
15:26:30 <boily> `unicode MAKE MY DAY, PUNK.
15:26:43 <oerjan> Taneb: iirc you essentially have to go through a proof that the circumference of a circle is 2pi*r
15:28:00 <oerjan> or something like that. different ways of saying essentially the same limit thing.
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15:31:18 <oerjan> sin'(x) = cos(x) is of course one of those.
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15:31:54 <oerjan> (which allows you to get yours with l'hôpital's rule.)
15:32:00 <Taneb> oerjan, which was the proof I was trying to understand
15:32:13 <Taneb> (that is, that sin'(x)=cos(x))
15:33:14 <oerjan> or to be precise, you need to carefully define the length of a circle arc somehow.
15:33:52 <oerjan> like how archimedes did it, when he proved c = 2pi*r.
15:34:28 <oerjan> although in modern treatments, the length of a smooth curve is defined using derivatives.
15:34:39 <oerjan> i think if you do that, you get a non-circular proof.
15:35:03 <Phantom___Hoover> <Taneb> How do I prove that in radians sin x ~= x when x =~= 0?
15:35:24 <Phantom___Hoover> oerjan has presumably told you this already but the maclaurin series is the quickest way
15:35:50 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: i did, but i also guessed he's asking for a deeper issue.
15:36:06 <lexande> Phantom___Hoover: well, that's circular for Taneb's question unless you say that sin is defined to be the limit of this power series
15:36:40 <lexande> (as opposed to being defined to be some nonsense with circles)
15:37:24 <Phantom___Hoover> this is all true, but actually proving that d/dx(sin x) = cos x is not something i've ever seen, at least
15:37:32 <Taneb> I think mostly I'm falling asleep
15:38:00 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, it's pretty easy using that lim_(x->0) (sin x) = x
15:38:15 <Taneb> And the limits definition of differentials
15:38:46 <Taneb> No, that was the thing I asked about
15:38:47 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: this is the x and y of the xy problem in question.
15:39:03 <Jafet> Modern trigonometry avoids circular reasoning.
15:39:11 <oerjan> which are equivalent to each other.
15:39:16 <Taneb> I wasn't actually meant to do anything
15:39:24 <Taneb> Put the milk in the fridge maybe
15:39:27 <Taneb> Guess I failed at that
15:40:39 * oerjan checks he didn't forget to unpack his own groceries
15:41:18 <oerjan> Taneb: anyway it's good to ask such questions, it's what i vaguely recall doing when i started univ.
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15:41:32 <lmt> ok which one of you assholes posted this http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/1o7ktk/what_happened_to_real_redstone/
15:42:40 <oerjan> lmt: i don't recall that nick here.
15:43:04 <boily> oerjan: does it mean I can spam^H^H^H^Hkindly welcome lmt?
15:43:40 <lmt> who are you, the NSA
15:43:49 <oerjan> boily: i meant the author of the reddit post. please stand by for answer to your question.
15:43:59 <lexande> Taneb: i mean if the point is just to intuitively convince yourself, imagining the circle is probably sufficient
15:44:04 <HackEgo> 2013-03-19.txt:21:52:54: <lmt> which is a hallmark of a good esolang
15:44:13 <oerjan> i never trust HackEgo's No outputs on first - right.
15:44:21 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: good
15:44:26 <lmt> feel the pain
15:44:47 <lexande> since it's just saying that near the x axis, the circle is practically vertical
15:45:10 * oerjan almost forgot to swat Jafet -----###
15:45:48 <lmt> I just can't appreciate the kind of vast, redstone-powered computers that folks build in Minecraft. While it clearly takes dedication and talent to design them, it's kind of like looking at someone's model railroad or stamp collection. It's impressive, but not something that really 'impacts' you beyond saying, "Wow, this guy has a ton of time on his hands".
15:45:49 <boily> oerjan: oh well. maybe next time! (and hopefully it won't be an overly attached misguided young teenaged colombian girl...)
15:46:25 <oerjan> boily: what we need to ask, are those spanish people all the same girl
15:47:11 <oerjan> lmt: what is the point of minecraft _other_ than doing such things.
15:47:39 <lmt> building stuff
15:47:48 <lmt> that looks good on renders
15:48:50 <oerjan> `learn lmt is insufficiently mad for this channel.
15:49:49 <Phantom___Hoover> i can kind of sympathise to an extent though, MC circuitry was far more interesting when it was all about crazy physics exploits
15:50:05 <lmt> i'm the only one mad enough for this channel, actually
15:50:16 <boily> ah... the good old times where I exploited grass growth for my mad contraptions...
15:50:20 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: yeah, redstone isn't really a particularly good esolang
15:50:52 <lmt> the most esoteric part of minecraft is getting upside-down stairs to align with each other
15:51:39 <Phantom___Hoover> the block update detector becoming an actual block was the dumbest thing ever
15:52:47 <lmt> huh? it did?
15:55:15 <lmt> on the other hand have you seen the guy creating spawners in vanilla survival
15:55:46 <lmt> minecraft is not quite dead yet
15:56:48 <Taneb> Dwarf Fortress is where it's at
15:57:08 <Phantom___Hoover> i was under the impression that minecraft has been completely usurped by its own modding community
15:57:16 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iaU1TvIQqM
15:57:21 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, GO ON
15:57:28 <lmt> Phantom___Hoover: the most insane thing i've ever seen
15:57:38 <Taneb> VANILLA OR ANTHRACITE
15:57:41 <lmt> pure vanilla survival
15:59:22 <Phantom___Hoover> i have gone back to my opinion that mineral distribution is still complete shit
15:59:51 <lmt> on the other hand if you make it more realistic it will just be boring as hell
16:00:07 <boily> boatvators are dead??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
16:00:49 <lmt> every embark would just have at most one mineral
16:01:15 <Phantom___Hoover> lmt, anthracite is my mod, it adds high-yield coal ore to some stone layers and adds iron ore to others
16:01:33 <Phantom___Hoover> makes it actually possible to start a steel industry on most sites
16:01:53 <lmt> if you want to start a steel industry pick a proper embark
16:02:30 <Phantom___Hoover> even with dfhack's prospect-on-embark-screen thing i wasn't able to find a site with coal, flux and ore
16:03:03 <lmt> well keep looking!
16:03:10 <lmt> prospect-on-embark underreports flux
16:03:13 <HackEgo> [U+D83D DUNNO] [U+DE8C DUNNO]
16:03:22 <lmt> and who needs coal
16:04:01 <lmt> i have never used coal ever
16:04:08 <Phantom___Hoover> anyway this argument is not going to be anything but worthless and acrimonious, let's stop
16:04:10 <Taneb> You need coal or charcoal to make steel
16:04:11 <lmt> there's lava on every map
16:04:17 <lmt> on every map
16:04:33 <Taneb> Choosing a site now
16:06:02 <Phantom___Hoover> Taneb, btw dfhack is now essentially "the dwarf fortress unofficial patch project"; i highly recommend it even if you never actually use any of its tools
16:06:44 <lmt> it even fixes the cursor jumping to the middle of the screen when you switch modes!
16:07:14 <Phantom___Hoover> sadly it doesn't fix the need to have four different cursor modes
16:08:09 <lmt> btw i'm serious about never using coal - i dont' think i've ever even seen any
16:08:44 <lmt> yeah but that doesn't actually prevent you from having steel
16:09:10 <Phantom___Hoover> ten layers of sedimentary stone which may contain useful ores, then a hundred layers of worthless metamorphic and igneous intrusive
16:09:55 <Phantom___Hoover> lmt, i do know this, my perspective is just slightly skewed on account of just having spent a while playing on a glacier
16:10:30 <lmt> that's how geology works, yes
16:11:33 <Phantom___Hoover> you can't fit an unlimited number of people into a given space because they're lying down
16:11:59 <Phantom___Hoover> you can't feed a couple hundred people off two underground farm plots
16:13:03 <Taneb> You can't attach an archimedan screw to a watermill and make a perpetual motion machine
16:13:16 <Phantom___Hoover> you can't fit a few hundred boulders into the same space taken up by a chair
16:13:37 <Taneb> Pressure sometimes causes liquids to end up higher than when they started in real life
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16:15:27 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, embark on a small island y/n
16:15:57 <Phantom___Hoover> i had the same problem on the glacier, it's just boring in the long run
16:16:44 <Taneb> No, you encounter megabeasts
16:16:59 <Taneb> One of my previous fortresses got wiped by a fire demon on a small island
16:17:48 <Taneb> Embark with no reported flux y/n
16:22:33 <Taneb> Time to make a new world, then
16:26:52 <fizzie> U+D83D and U+DE8C are surrogates. Dunno where they come from.
16:27:24 <fizzie> "The Python language environment officially only uses UCS-2 internally since version 2.0, but the UTF-8 decoder to "Unicode" produces correct UTF-16."
16:27:27 <fizzie> Oh, I guess from there.
16:28:09 <fizzie> "Since Python 2.2, "wide" builds of Unicode are supported which use UTF-32 instead;[12] these are primarily used on Linux."
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16:30:51 <fizzie> `run python -c 'unichr(65536)'
16:30:53 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "<string>", line 1, in <module> \ ValueError: unichr() arg not in range(0x10000) (narrow Python build)
16:31:01 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, this worldgen is up to the Age of Heroes
16:31:05 <fizzie> "narrow Python build" I guess that's why it doesn't do non-BMP.
16:34:49 <Taneb> Worldgen 2 complete
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16:53:18 <Taneb> btw I'm leaving at 7
16:55:30 <Taneb> On another note, it's less than two weeks until I attend a relatively Haskell-themed event
16:57:46 -!- FreeFull has joined.
16:59:05 <mnoqy> relatively haskell-themed, eh?
16:59:42 <Taneb> It's got people like Phil Wadler and Neil Mitchell
17:01:09 <FreeFull> I can't figure how to make the Rust 0.8 REPL evaluate anything without segfaulting
17:02:39 <FreeFull> If I write code with an error, it displays the error, but if I write valid code it segfaults
17:02:53 <fizzie> A segfault is how you know it's working.
17:03:16 <FreeFull> Maybe the interpreter in the HEAD is better
17:03:46 <fizzie> You mean the limitless power of your imagination?
17:04:53 -!- lmt has joined.
17:06:53 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, this world looks more promising
17:07:43 <Taneb> As in it actually has flux
17:09:23 <oerjan> but can you make capacitors out of it
17:09:27 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, embark next to a human town y/n
17:09:49 <Taneb> Alas Doc Brown was not a dwarf
17:09:59 <boily> I like capacitors that go *BOOM*.
17:10:31 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, warm, woodland, stream, moderate vegetation, calm, clay, deep soil, multiple shallow and deep metals, flux
17:11:04 <Taneb> lmt, this is elliott, Phantom___Hoover, and I playing
17:11:04 <lmt> dwarf fortress is too boring :(
17:11:11 <Taneb> Boring is impossible
17:11:41 <lmt> right, the only way to make it non-boring is by griefing your own game
17:12:20 <Taneb> Or by having three clashing playstyles interacting
17:12:27 <lmt> same thing
17:12:35 <boily> of course DF is boring. how would you get your minerals otherwise?
17:12:49 <Taneb> lmt, yeah, but it feels less self-harm-y
17:12:54 <lmt> there are no drills in DF if that's what you mean
17:13:35 <lmt> which is unfortunate, would be cool if you could strap a giant corkscrew onto a pole and bore all the way down to lava
17:13:54 <Taneb> You'd need a p. long pole
17:14:10 <Jafet> Embark with: one adamantium corkscrew
17:14:34 <lmt> Taneb: you just keep adding sections to it
17:16:23 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, I'm gonna embark here now
17:17:05 <kmc> http://mccaine.org/2013/10/09/dwarf-fortress-a-marxist-analysis/
17:19:06 <fungot> olsner: so i just filter it out my end
17:19:36 <Jafet> fungot is not in a mood for talking.
17:19:37 <fungot> Jafet: it just might not be so useful if one cannot interleave conditionals as well the quick-sort code is unusual, so " hello, world always nops in those situations)
17:19:47 <boily> fungot: how are you today?
17:19:50 <lmt> dwarf fortress would be nicer with progressively harder sieges and building destroyers that destroy constructed walls and traps
17:20:24 <boily> dwarf fortress needs endermen.
17:20:35 <lmt> boily: endermen were nerfed
17:20:47 <lmt> they can't pick up things like cobble anymore :(
17:20:58 <boily> but... but... whyyyyy...
17:21:46 <Jafet> Dwarf Fortress will be nicer once toady writes the actual game on it
17:22:56 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, good news
17:23:05 <lmt> boily: i don't know.. i'm sorry :(
17:24:29 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, and limonite
17:24:35 <Taneb> Doin' p. good so far
17:27:20 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, and we've struck galena!
17:27:32 <Taneb> So we can make silver for hammers and lead goblets for elves
17:29:02 <boily> the races of DF: dwarves, humans, elves, goblins, and hammers.
17:30:03 <oerjan> you'd sort of think goblets were for goblins
17:30:26 <Taneb> No, the hammers are for the goblins
17:30:43 <lmt> for elves i recommend making a giant death trap
17:30:52 <Taneb> boily, technically kobolds are a race too
17:30:53 <lmt> possibly involving lead goblets somehow
17:31:22 <boily> Taneb: I deny kobolds. I refuse to admit their existence.
17:31:36 <Jafet> You could serve them deadly poison in lead goblets. Wait, I guess that's not implemented.
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17:33:45 <lmt> oerjan left! let's party!!
17:34:04 <lmt> i'm blue, dabadee dabada, dabadee dabada, dabadee dabada
17:34:50 <boily> lmt: if you want to party hard, try ~duck.
17:35:47 <metasepia> --- Query information from Duck Duck Go
17:36:02 <lmt> ~duck how to party hard
17:36:02 <metasepia> "Party Hard" is a song by Andrew W.K., first released as a single in 2001 and included on his first album I Get Wet.
17:36:21 <Taneb> Wasn't someone in this channel trying to apply graph theory to Dwarf Fortress to find the optimum workshop/stockpile layout
17:36:38 <mnoqy> that sounds plausible
17:36:45 <lmt> where else would they be?
17:37:56 <boily> #df doesn't seem to be very dwarfortressian...
17:38:14 <olsner> whatever dwarf fortress calls its IRC channel then
17:38:32 <lmt> #dwarffortress is incredibly bad
17:38:57 <lmt> i can't recommend that channel for any purpose
17:42:04 <metasepia> KPWT 111735Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM BKN023 OVC032 10/06 A3018 RMK AO1
17:50:21 <boily> fizzie: nah. going to open an issue for that.
17:50:52 <fizzie> Is "open an issue" some kind of an euphemism?
17:51:20 <boily> only if you have wet github dreams.
17:52:37 <lmt> who doesn't?
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17:52:54 <lmt> i mean, octopussies?
17:54:54 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
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17:56:43 <fizzie> I should make that channel stats page update somehow semiautomatic, it had been a month since I last refreshed it.
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18:03:29 <metasepia> KNYC 111751Z AUTO 08011G16KT 030V110 10SM BKN019 OVC046 18/14 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP170 60002 T01780139 10183 20167 58008 $
18:05:46 <metasepia> CYUL 111700Z 01005KT 15SM BKN240 18/08 A3017 RMK CI7 SLP218 DENSITY ALT 200FT
18:06:08 <boily> hm. kinda the same weather down there.
18:06:12 <olsner> are IATA codes those normal airport codes you see on boarding passes etc?
18:06:51 <boily> olsner: yes. IATA codes are 3 letters long, ICAO 4 letters (sometimes 3 alpha + 1 num).
18:07:34 <lexande> there are some namespace issues because the FAA assigns three letter codes to every US airport
18:07:39 <metasepia> EFHK 111750Z 30008KT CAVOK 06/03 Q1026 NOSIG
18:07:49 <fizzie> That's so short compared to all you guys.
18:08:04 <olsner> is three letters even enough for the world's airports? seems like such a small namespace
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18:08:34 <lexande> and the IATA assigns three letter codes to every airport with commercial international flights and many but by no means all others
18:08:35 <boily> olsner: no, therefore ICAO. as lexande said, there are clashes between IATA codes.
18:09:06 <lexande> and if a US airport has an IATA code then the FAA code matches it
18:09:07 <fizzie> 43762 lines in the master-location-identifier-database-20130801.csv mentioned before.
18:09:49 <olsner> they should switch to unicode so they get more letters
18:10:08 <lexande> but there are US airports with no IATA codes (and no commercial flights) with FAA codes that the IATA uses elsewhere
18:10:14 <lexande> CBG is perhabs the most notable examble
18:11:19 <lexande> KCBG, Cambridge Minnesota Municipal Airport, is known to the FAA as CBG and not known to the IATA
18:11:51 <olsner> and cambridge, england is iata's cbg?
18:11:54 <lexande> while EGSC, Cambridge UK Airport, is known to the IATA as CBG (and not known to the FAA since it's not in the US)
18:12:25 <olsner> I'm sure the FAA *know* about it
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18:12:46 <fizzie> The xkcd "geohash" in this graticule few days ago was right on one of the runways of the Helsinki-Vantaa airport.
18:12:48 <lexande> well the IATA also *know* about KCBG
18:13:10 <lexande> i've flown to an airport with no ICAO code
18:13:14 <lexande> kind of a hassle for my openflights
18:14:34 <fizzie> http://carabiner.peeron.com/xkcd/map/map.html?date=2013-10-08&lat=60&long=24&zoom=9 -- there
18:15:00 <fizzie> (Sorry, I think they renamed to "Helsinki Airport" recently.)
18:17:47 <lexande> it's just (-2.1575, 34.2212)
18:18:24 <lexande> actually i found some website pretending it's called GTZ but that seems to be made up
18:19:36 <lexande> hmm, i guess it's not true that FAA codes always match IATA codes when both exist
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18:33:45 <olsner> bay12games? that's ... obvious
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19:19:08 <boily> I'm bored. anybody knows of an exotic OS I could boot in virtualbox?
19:20:35 * boily thwacks ion with an old MS-DOS manual
19:22:35 <fizzie> (Okay, that's just a DOS program; but it's got an "OS" in the name.)
19:24:34 <fizzie> I have the strangest urge to boot something non-Linux on the (PV-only) Xen system fungot runs on, which is the silly. I don't think there's anything very exotic that runs paravirtualized under Xen anyway; just Linux, FreeBSD, NetBSD, Solaris
19:24:34 <fungot> fizzie: yes...? :) i don't really understand why those people keep misreading. fnord luin fnord " fnord"
19:25:17 <fizzie> fungot: You wouldn't mind, would you? It wouldn't be that many megabytes off your nose.
19:25:18 <fungot> fizzie: i have *never* seen a certificate on his wall. a couple of threads, although there are seven mandatory and n optional levels in the taxonomy, species are fnord ( well, at least so did a bit more
19:25:30 <boily> you can certify a wall?
19:25:44 <boily> fizzie: althought not an OS, that is quite exotic.
19:25:53 <boily> fungot: fnord luin fnord fnord.
19:25:53 <fungot> boily: but i don't know if it's just a photo of the fnord
19:25:56 <fizzie> boily: I used to use it for TCP/IPing from DOS.
19:26:18 <fizzie> "luin" is the first-person past-tense word for "read" in Finnish.
19:27:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
19:27:46 <fizzie> Seems I've pasted twenty or so Finnish misreadings on one of the channels the 'irc' style is trained on; those tend to be of the form "luin 'X'".
19:28:36 <fizzie> Oh, I found even the actual quote.
19:28:43 <fizzie> fungot: Shame on you for borrowing so literally.
19:28:43 <fungot> fizzie: i just found a flaw in what i've done at http://www.cs.indiana.edu/bmastenb/")?
19:29:44 <shachaf> fungot: what's the matter with you!!
19:29:44 <fungot> shachaf: what is sicp? :) " migrate my process thence!"
19:29:54 <fizzie> nortti: Is that the Plan 9 Xen thing?
19:30:07 <nortti> fizzie: no, that is a fork of plan 9
19:30:30 <fizzie> Well, yes, but one that has some Xen PV support. I saw a reference to something like that somewhere.
19:30:54 <fizzie> HaLVM sounds like Xen Mirage except Haskell instead of Ocaml.
19:31:16 <boily> is it me, or tolkien's languages borrowed a lot from finnish?
19:31:36 <fizzie> boily: That's an officially acknowledged fact.
19:31:52 <fizzie> fungot: Have you always wanted to run on a Haskell Funge-98 interpreter on HaLVM?
19:31:53 <fungot> fizzie: name is not a reader abbreviation?
19:32:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
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19:33:19 <fizzie> (I don't know what the good Haskell Funge-98 interpreters are, though.)
19:34:03 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/sXa7yv4.png well um this is about the worst security I've ever seen in a game
19:34:22 <Fiora> (FF14 apparently lets you... post arbitrary JSON to modify your own character's data... without verification...)
19:35:40 <boily> fizzie: oh, indeed.
19:35:50 <boily> (meanwhile, installing plan 9)
19:38:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, are there any?
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19:39:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly there are not. I know Fungi doesn't include SOCK.
19:40:49 <olsner> does xen require a paravirtualized os?
19:41:16 <fizzie> No, if you have hardware virtualization extensions in your processor.
19:41:24 <fizzie> But the box in question doesn't.
19:42:01 <olsner> can kvm run xen-paravirtualized stuff?
19:42:48 <fizzie> It's built on the same paravirt_ops infrastructure, at least.
19:44:21 <fizzie> And HVM Xen guests can do paravirt_ops drivers for efficiency (calld PV-on-HVM, I think) instead of having emulated hardware devices (provided by qemu).
19:44:56 <olsner> is that the same as virtio or something different?
19:46:35 <fizzie> I guess technically they might be different, but I was referring to both with paravirt_ops.
19:46:42 <fizzie> I don't know the codistical details.
19:47:55 <fizzie> It vaguely seems that the virtio drivers might be different from the Xen PV drivers.
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19:54:57 <fizzie> As far as I can figure out, the paravirt_ops general paravirtualization blobs are common to both Xen and KVM, but there might be some duplication with virtio drivers specific to KVM, and different ones for Xen.
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19:55:55 <fizzie> fungot's network interface and block device are from xen_netfront and xen_blkfront, respectively, so that's that.
19:55:55 <fungot> fizzie: from two different employers had an affectionate way to refer to
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20:01:45 <fizzie> I wonder if there's isn't a Mirage/HaLVM kind of thing already for Rust, it sounds like the kind of thing someone'd do.
20:03:55 <fizzie> Other Xen news: Xen 4.3 removed support for the 32-bit x86 hypervisor. It's almost like "last time" (I started the late server-laptop using Xen but then they dropped 32-bit non-PAE support), except I had a borderline 64-bit (Atom 230) system this time.
20:04:17 <fizzie> I'm sure they're going to drop support for processors with no hardware virtualization sooner or later, though.
20:04:34 <fizzie> (As in, the "old-fashioned" PV side.)
20:05:14 <olsner> seemed that vmware had already dropped their PV interface, because cpus are good enough at virtualization themselves now
20:05:59 <olsner> yeah, wikipedia said that VMI support will be dropped around 2010-2011
20:07:18 <fizzie> There's no hardware virtualization on the Atom. (Except a couple exceptions.)
20:07:30 <fizzie> Quite a few of them didn't even support Intel 64.
20:07:47 <fizzie> Well, maybe not "quite a few", but the old N270 ones and such.
20:08:32 <fizzie> I guess the 2013 high-ender Atoms do VT-x and all that.
20:09:38 <kmc> There's no hardware virtualization on the Atom <--- Virtual 8086 mode!~!!!!!
20:09:53 <kmc> the earliest x86 hardware virtualization
20:09:56 <kmc> also best ofc
20:10:16 <fizzie> There was some sort of paravirtualized-Xen-on-ARM project that I think also sort of died, now that ARM's introduced virtualization extensions in ARMv7 and (I guess?) made it standard in ARMv8; Xen 4.3 has a "tech preview" supporting those.
20:10:31 <kmc> vmware did paravirt?
20:10:41 <kmc> i thought they only did hardware virt or dynamic translation
20:11:13 <kmc> also dynamic translation can perform better than bare metal thanks to JIT optimizations
20:11:26 <fizzie> They did paravirt: http://pubs.vmware.com/vsphere-4-esx-vcenter/index.jsp?topic=/com.vmware.vsphere.vmadmin.doc_41/vsp_vm_guide/configuring_virtual_machines/t_enable_and_disable_vmi_paravirtualization.html
20:12:00 <fizzie> kmc: So how about that Rust-on-Xen, then?
20:12:01 <kmc> like oh, we recorded a JIT trace from your program through the kernel syscall path, now we don't actually need to switch CPU modes or perform privilege checks on that hot path
20:12:08 <kmc> fizzie: that'd be cool
20:12:11 <kmc> like HalVM you mean?
20:12:23 <fizzie> Like that, and like the Ocaml-based Xen Mirage.
20:12:43 <kmc> looks like people have been talking about it: https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/rust-dev/2013-March/003335.html
20:15:27 <fizzie> It's kind of like Xen hypervisor is the OS, and all these things are the applications. Soon they'll start talking about sharing common code between the "guests" and then it turns into some regular microkernel OS instead of a virtualization system.
20:16:17 <kmc> and there's already precedent for running a traditional kernel on top of a microkernel
20:16:50 * kmc actually ran MkLinux back in the day.
20:17:16 <fizzie> I ran MkLinux too, and it wasn't even too "back in the day", it was like 2003-ish.
20:17:22 <kmc> well okay, same here
20:17:31 <kmc> that was a decade ago!
20:17:58 <kmc> somebody pointed out to me the other day that I was in the first 0.1% of Facebook users and now I feel bad about helping inflict Facebook on the world
20:18:26 <fizzie> I had a... what was it, Performa 5260.
20:19:02 <fizzie> (Fun fact: went to http://www.lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml to verify the model number, because all I remembered was "it was mentioned on that list of worst Mac design choices".)
20:26:23 <fizzie> I haven't been an early adopter of anything else except "IRC-Galleria", a Finnish iamge gallery that started as a collection of photos of IRC users (in 2001-2002) but then morphed into a generic (if image-gallery-oriented) social network with its own groups and users, so that people these days talk about "IRC" when they mean that site. (Annoying "real" IRC users to no end.)
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20:27:52 <fizzie> They claim to have 50% of all Finnish 15-24-year-olds visiting per month.
20:28:44 * shachaf keeps forgetting not to pronounce fizzie's nick as if it was English.
20:29:33 <nooodl> what IS the correct pronunciation
20:29:59 <nooodl> is it /fizzie/ (finnish joke)
20:31:09 <fizzie> /fitsie/ (not really).
20:31:19 <fizzie> Though that might be pretty close to how a Finn would do it.
20:31:38 <fizzie> (We don't have a native 'z'.)
20:33:57 <shachaf> nooodl: is "nooodl" pronounced as if dutch
20:36:10 <shachaf> that would be "the good pronunciation"
20:36:55 <nooodl> if it's any consolation i mentally pronounce "shachaf" with that thick "chhh" sound
20:37:12 <olsner> is it pronounced n'dl with a glottal stop?
20:38:39 <nooodl> (or ח?? help wikipedia is confusing me)
20:39:43 <shachaf> and which thick chhh sound do you want
20:41:02 <nooodl> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_uvular_fricative
20:41:25 <shachaf> some people use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_fricative ...............
20:41:40 <boily> /fɪzi/, /ʃähäf/, /nuːdl̩/, /ɔlsnœʀ/
20:41:42 <mnoqy> some people use lots of things
20:42:32 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-fizzie.wav <- from the rather crummy diphone synthesis Finnish voice for Festival, but the main gist of it is correct.
20:43:57 <nooodl> expected boily to say /fizi/. is /ɪ/ even in french
20:44:20 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-fizzie2.wav <- the other Finnish Festival voice, you can take an average of these two.
20:44:28 <boily> nooodl: only as a lax allophone of [i].
20:45:48 <fizzie> Also a Finnish person says "shachaf" like this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-shachaf.wav
20:46:53 <fizzie> And these are the two ways a Finnish person might refer to kmc: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-kmc.wav
20:47:55 <fizzie> (The prosody is a bit hit-and-miss.)
20:48:03 <nooodl> the finnish way to spell the alphabet sounds pretty cute too
20:48:36 <boily> /bwali/, /kaɛmse/, /vɔʀpal/, /ɛljɔt/, /fʌngɔt/, /lɛksãd/, /metasepja/, /ɛlɛmte/, /mnɔki/, /dʒafɛt/, /tanɛb/
20:51:38 <fizzie> nooodl: The whole alphabet: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131011-alphabet.wav
20:51:48 <boily> FireFly: /aksãgravsiʀkɔ̃flɛkssuliɲesiʀkɔ̃flɛksve/
20:54:13 <fizzie> (The "kaksoisvee" for 'w' is sort of formal, more commonly it's just "tuplavee".)
20:55:14 <ion> “more commonly” probably depends on your location.
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20:55:31 <shachaf> fizzie: if only i had headphones :'(
20:55:34 <boily> FireFly: also, /fajɚflaj/.
20:58:33 <Bike> http://wtfviz.net/image/63750418075
20:59:24 <fizzie> Bike: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3dgzx4zSbjM/UUAb4KDOmpI/AAAAAAAAAJM/dn0hWHqIc0Y/s320/Kauko+Nieminen+2003.JPG
20:59:38 <boily> Bike: the wtf is very wtfing.
21:03:38 <ion> The Finnish alphabet. http://heh.fi/tmp/alphabet.ogg
21:04:23 <fizzie> Yes, well, there is a reason I added some periods and spaces before generating alphabet.wav.
21:05:54 <fizzie> I think that's the same Suopuhe voice.
21:06:39 <nooodl> i love how it's looped four times
21:07:02 <boily> “soi soi soi soi soi soi soi soi”
21:08:48 <fizzie> Bitlips, one of the Finnish commercial players in the field, has a web demo of their thing at http://www.bitlips.fi/tts/demo.cgi
21:10:14 <fizzie> For non-Finnish people: first row of radio buttons selects the voice (last one does unit selection and is therefore most natural), second row the special sound effect, and third row the speed, left to right from slow to fast.
21:11:01 <fizzie> (The effects don't work for the last voice, it seems.)
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21:14:10 <fizzie> (Google Translate's Finnish voice might be the best easily-accessible Finnish synthesis voice.)
21:16:08 <fizzie> It even makes a difference between "fizzie" and "fitsie", and pronounces the former like my nick "should" go, and the latter more like "fit-sie", as far as timing and stress go.
21:17:27 <fizzie> It also makes a pretty impressive "Finglish" if you set the input language to Finnish and paste in some English text. I laughed.
21:19:43 <nooodl> dear finland: what is torilla tavataan
21:20:20 <ion> Updated. It now contains a comparison between synthesized and spoken versions of the Finnish alphabet. http://heh.fi/tmp/alphabet.ogg
21:20:22 <fizzie> "(let's) meet at the (market) square".
21:20:53 <fizzie> Or it could be something to say as a... what's the opposite of a greeting?
21:21:41 <fizzie> Kind of like "be seeing you".
21:22:30 <fizzie> (It also has a sarcastic sense.)
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21:23:18 <fizzie> ion: Did you spell the alphabet like that in primary school?
21:24:48 <ion> Not before getting an Amiga with “Say”.
21:25:45 <fizzie> I had the aforementioned Performa 5260 reading #esoteric out loud (Ircle + OS 7.5.3 builtin speech synthesis) a couple of times.
21:26:08 <fizzie> (It wasn't a terribly good idea.)
21:30:01 <kmc> my house in college had an old Mac (one of the first ever models) in the lounge running a text editor, into which people would type poetry / obscenity / ramblings
21:30:18 <kmc> and occasionally we would transfer the floppy disk to a slightly less old Mac and make a text to speech recording and play it at events
21:31:18 <kmc> in middle school I used remote applescript to make other people's computer lab Macs talk to them
21:32:51 <fizzie> I liked that voice where the sample sentence in the control panel was "the light you see at the end of the tunnel is the headlights of a fast approaching train", or something approximately like that.
21:33:08 <kmc> is that one of the singing ones?
21:33:17 <fizzie> Yes, it was a sing-songy one.
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22:12:51 <zzo38> How to access the printer in a SDL based program?
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22:13:53 <ion> I’m not sure SDL affects printing.
22:15:34 <zzo38> I also don't see any SDL functions for printing, although is there some cross-platform library usable with SDL programs that can emulate a line printer or something like that?
22:18:26 <zzo38> I have finally earned over 300% advantage of points in basketball; before I was between 200% and 300%.
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22:40:05 <Koen_> say I have a language in which it is possible to implement programs that would output every possible integer sequence
22:40:35 <Taneb> Is that one program per sequence?
22:41:05 <Koen_> say there is an output function which takes an arbitrarily large integer as argument, and outputs it
22:41:36 <Taneb> I don't think this is possible
22:41:39 <Koen_> assume for every sequence (a_n) there exists a program where this output function is called first on a_0, then a_1, etc
22:41:43 <Taneb> Without infinitely long programs
22:41:59 <Taneb> Because there are only a countably infinite number of possible programs
22:42:01 <Koen_> well, the set of all integer sequences is uncountable
22:42:12 <Taneb> But an uncountably infinite number of possible sequences of integers
22:42:16 <Koen_> but the set of programs in a given language is countable
22:42:31 <Koen_> so there's a problem
22:42:43 <Taneb> So you need infinitely long programs
22:42:59 <Koen_> which means that there are no turing-complete languages at all
22:43:02 <Koen_> we've been lied to
22:43:15 <Taneb> The set of computable integer sequences is countable
22:43:42 <Koen_> what's a computable integer sequence?
22:44:07 <Taneb> One that you can write a program to output it, pretty much
22:44:07 <fizzie> If there is a program to output it. :p
22:44:15 <kmc> the set of computable anything is countable
22:44:19 <kmc> because the set of programs is countable
22:44:29 <Koen_> that's pretty much my point
22:44:55 <fizzie> Koen_: Your point seems to be missing the link between itself and the alleged impossibility of Turing-completeness.
22:45:23 <Koen_> fizzie: well, "turing-complete" means you can write any program
22:45:28 <Koen_> and I just proved that's not possible
22:45:40 <Koen_> there are simply not enough different programs
22:45:46 <fizzie> Koen_: You can write any program, so you can output any computable integer sequence, sure.
22:45:55 <fizzie> Koen_: There's no requirement that all integer sequences have programs.
22:45:57 <Koen_> I think I'm gonna drop out of computer school and become a musician instead, now that I know the truth
22:46:13 <Koen_> yeah but what's the definition of computable?
22:46:45 <Koen_> "computable means it can be done by a program" "this language is turing-complete because you can write a program for every computable task"
22:47:16 <Koen_> outputting a simple integer sequence sounds like something you should be able to do
22:47:29 <Koen_> anyhows, I'm going to bed now
22:47:31 <fizzie> Well, "sounds like something" isn't much of an argument.
22:48:03 <Koen_> I hear the Church-Turing thesis isn't either
22:48:33 <fizzie> I don't think Church-Turing really affects the definition of Turing-complete, though.
22:48:55 <fizzie> It's Turing-complete if you can do everything a Turing machine can do, and the name doesn't really sound like it'd promise anything more.
22:48:59 <kmc> Turing machines are a perfectly well defined mathematical construct regardless of the C-T thesis
22:49:39 <Koen_> well it basically says "Being Turing-complete is equivalent to 'be able to do anything'" without really stating what "anything" is
22:49:50 <Koen_> like it's intuitive
22:49:52 <kmc> that's what the C-T thesis says yes
22:49:56 <kmc> it's not a formal statement
22:49:58 <kmc> it can't be
22:49:58 <Koen_> well, integer sequences are intuitive
22:50:05 <kmc> you cannot proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means!
22:50:10 <Koen_> yes, I know, the flying fire-breathing monkeys
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22:52:19 <kmc> @tell Koen_ the C-T thesis is about machines which can actually be built; it's easy enough to make mathematical models stronger than a Turing Machine
22:53:34 <kmc> well feel free to substitute "method which can be carried out" for "machine which can be built"
22:54:04 <kmc> i don't know what you mean tho
22:54:32 <Phantom_Hoover> well obviously you can't actually build a TM because infinite memory
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23:10:59 <Taneb> Are there any uninteresting complex numbers
23:11:30 <kmc> i was going to say 0 but maybe it's actually one of the most interesting numbers ever!!
23:12:07 <fizzie> Is any uninteresting real number also an uninteresting complex number, or is it more complex than that?
23:12:34 <Taneb> The proof that there are no uninteresting naturals doesn't extend to it at all, I think
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23:13:23 <fizzie> You can order the Gaussian integers.
23:15:57 <fizzie> I'm sure you can find some property that lets you pick one of the assumed uninteresting complex numbers.
23:16:51 <kmc> quick, anyone know if [ foo -et bar ] is in POSIX test?
23:16:58 <kmc> er, -ef rather
23:17:35 <shachaf> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/test.html
23:17:43 <shachaf> Some additional primaries newly invented or from the KornShell appeared in an early proposal as part of the conditional command ( [[]]): s1 > s2, s1 < s2, str = pattern, str != pattern, f1 -nt f2, f1 -ot f2, and f1 -ef f2. They were not carried forward into the test utility when the conditional command was removed from the shell because they have not been included in the test utility built into historical implementations of the sh utility.
23:18:20 <shachaf> are you doing autotools things again or something
23:18:28 <kmc> no just hacking the servo configure script a bit
23:18:42 <kmc> (which is hand-written, not autoconf)
23:19:25 <olsner> can't you just put bash after #! and ignore posix?
23:19:38 <kmc> seems rude
23:20:21 <olsner> are you supporting anything that actually doesn't have bash at all?
23:21:09 <fizzie> You could just compare stat -c '%d.%i' of both files except that stat(1)'s not POSIX either.
23:22:00 <kmc> yeah that was my first idea before I thought to check if test had this ability built in
23:22:03 <kmc> olsner: no
23:24:11 <kmc> i want ./configure to check if $0 and ./configure are the same file
23:24:40 <kmc> clearly I should do: fgrep -q pO1TnNAzAlfRkUq4T/sSzf5hSjP3XxK7kA+ItpXA5Kx+Gm47yVFr5+Q/bQK6wJfTSLARo6HgVIsF ./configure
23:25:13 <shachaf> is that base64 /dev/urandom
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