00:10:52 <Taneb> ion, I'm on now :)
00:11:12 <Taneb> Had to add "10.10.10.1 fragsoc" to /etc/hosts
00:32:20 <zzo38> Now please look at the HWPL again; I have fixed a lot of things and added some things. Is it good now? Is there anything missing or otherwise incorrect in it?
00:34:35 <zzo38> Now the SPLIT block has the format: SPLIT [LTR|RTL] vec [BY num|IN HALF] AS var: statement [ELSE: statement]
00:34:45 <zzo38> Is this good enough?
00:38:20 <zzo38> Also, I have allowed a CASE statement to have a label attached.
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01:05:10 <zzo38> Things needed may be CMOS models, analog wiring, and foreign function interface.
01:05:19 <zzo38> Do you have any suggestions for this?
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02:04:04 <ion> http://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceImages/comments/1obt00/homemade_double_slit_experiment_not_the_most/
02:04:36 <quintopia> isn't there a bot here that can do unit conversion
02:09:35 <Taneb> fizzie, I'm overtired enough to work on a Haskell port of mcmap
02:10:05 <ion> Or overviewer?
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02:37:48 <zzo38> Do you like my kind of idea of text adventure game?
02:45:11 <zzo38> Can a SDL window be opened by a extension library or only the main program is SDL based?
02:45:25 <ais523> zzo38: it can be opened by an extension library
02:45:34 <ais523> you have to define something in the C source files, though
02:45:47 <ais523> before including the header
02:45:58 <ais523> that means that SDL won't try to provide its own main
02:47:21 <zzo38> If you do that then if another program loads a .dll or .so file that opens a SDL window, then will it work OK? What need to be done to continue the other program to run when the window is not open (or even if the window is open)? Is simply to SDL_Init() and SDL_Quit() and then the caller can continue, would it works?
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02:49:06 <zzo38> Is anything else of concerned?
02:51:41 <elliott> ais523: it doesn't any more, as of SDL 2
02:51:58 <ais523> elliott: this is for SDL 2
02:52:05 <ais523> but only on Windows, Android, iPhone
02:52:09 <ais523> on other pltforms it doesn't matter
02:53:12 <zzo38> Actually I think I am using an older version of SDL anyways, but hopefully should it work OK either way?
02:53:24 <elliott> SDL < 2 does funky things with main
02:53:47 <elliott> ais523: do you have a source for Android and iPhone? it says it's just about WinMain() in http://wiki.libsdl.org/MigrationGuide
02:53:58 <ais523> elliott: the source of the header files themselves
02:54:21 <pikhq> Weird, I thought it only provided a WinMain on Windows, so you could just use main?
02:54:37 <zzo38> What does SDL's main do?
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02:55:14 <ais523> pikhq: it provides equivalents in Java and Objective-C for Android and for iPhone
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02:56:27 <zzo38> Objective-C is a strict superset of C, so you should be able to use an existing C program and just write the stuff to wrap them in Objective-C objects, isn't it?
02:57:36 <zzo38> Does GCC or LLVM target Dalvik yet?
03:07:26 <zzo38> I wanted to know this about SDL because I wanted to make up a SQL extension library for graphics, so that you can write something like SELECT XYPLOT(`TIME`,`SPACE`) FROM `THINGS` ORDER BY `TIME`; and make it plot the graph of the data.
03:08:00 <zzo38> (The "XYPLOT" here is a aggregate.)
03:08:57 <pikhq> ais523: Ah. So, you can just write "int main()" everywhere and it'll work, but if you do fancier stuff it'll cause issues?
03:09:00 <zzo38> Or perhaps XYPLOT just returns a picture, and then another function SHOW takes a picture and displays it.
03:11:20 <pikhq> Okay, that actually makes sense.
03:11:30 <pikhq> I'm not 100% sure it belong in SDL, but eh.
03:19:56 <Taneb> Fiora, http://31.media.tumblr.com/f8e08e23c7819fc749d1d45ae719d38b/tumblr_mtjnvzKW9E1sq11yeo1_500.jpg
03:20:30 <HackEgo> 827) <monqy> what does it mean for a pencil to be turing complete.... <ais523> monqy: it's the same concept as USB sushi, really \ 828) <Fiora> usb sushi is dangerous. I think I would try to eat it
03:20:46 <elliott> wow, two USB sushi quotes.
03:21:12 <Fiora> they were at the same time, I think?
03:49:04 <zzo38> Is there other way I could support graphics with SQL?
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04:11:25 <Bike> that sushi does look pretty good.
04:12:54 <zzo38> I noticed in this computer I have a file with list of Pokemon battle rules that I and my brother made up, including time controls, financial controls, tie breakers, and various other things.
04:13:29 <Bike> was there a subprime mortgage crisis in hoenn
04:13:39 <zzo38> For example, one option is this: SURRENDER COMMAND = BATTLE | MATCH
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04:16:15 <zzo38> There is even such thing as doubling cube
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04:20:25 <zzo38> INVALID TARGET CORRECTION = AUTO SAME SIDE | AUTO ANY SIDE | MISS | PROMPT | USER FAINTS | LOSE BATTLE | DISQUALIFY I believe "AUTO SAME SIDE" is used in the official games, although I prefer "MISS" instead.
04:21:01 <zzo38> What is your preference for such things?
04:24:27 <ais523> zzo38: I believe the official game actually uses auto same side if possible, otherwise random opponent
04:24:58 <ais523> and the same side behaviour is important, it means that you can hedge against unknown EVs on the opponent via double-targeting and knowing that the second attack will shift if necessary
04:25:05 <ais523> so I'm happy with the official rules
04:25:30 <zzo38> Some people might not always be so here I specified a lot of possibilities.
04:25:35 <ais523> it'd remove a layer of strategy to do the vast majority of those possibilities
04:26:52 <zzo38> What strategy do you think would be different with each one?
04:33:50 <ais523> zzo38: double-targeting would only be valuable under prompt or auto same side, unless you were confident that it would KO
04:33:55 <ais523> err, not KO without it
04:34:33 <ais523> it's risky enough as it is because of Protect, and it just wouldn't work under almost all those rules
04:34:48 <zzo38> There is also self-destruct, though
04:35:01 <zzo38> But yes I believe you are correct in general
04:35:25 <ais523> ever since the nerf in gen V, selfdestruct hasn't done enough damage to be useful, and it hits everything so there's no invalid target correction anyway
04:35:55 <ais523> base 200 of (nearly always) the wrong type is like base 133 STAB
04:36:12 <ais523> which is only slightly higher than the top attackers would be doing anyway, and the drawback's really large
04:36:18 <ais523> if it's not oneshotting things, you wouldn't use it
04:36:21 <ais523> and it doesn't oneshot things
04:36:23 <zzo38> I mean if the target uses selfdestruct and goes first
04:37:07 <ais523> if you thought that would happen, you'd just use Protect
04:38:56 <zzo38> But what if you didn't think that would happen (but it happen anyways) or if you don't have Protect?
04:41:26 <ais523> if you didn't think it would happen, you probably weren't strategizing for it
04:41:39 <ais523> and in doubles, it's quite rare to not have Protect, and if you do, you're probably going all-in on going first
04:41:42 <ais523> so the target isn't going first
04:41:49 <ais523> err, if you do go without Protect
04:42:08 <ais523> finally, if the opponent's using Selfdestruct, it's going to be because they think it's a KO
04:42:16 <ais523> so it probably will be a KO, and you won't be able to attack anyway
04:43:25 <zzo38> If the invalid target correction is set to USER FAINTS, LOSE BATTLE, or DISQUALIFY, and they have the ability to go first, then they will use it even if it isn't a KO, just to trick you
04:44:09 <ais523> yes, but those settings are silly
04:44:31 <ais523> with lose battle / disqualify, you'd get a free win with encore/memento and a wobbuffet
04:45:02 <ais523> which is as stupid, as combos go, as the one where you use serene grace blissey in order to trick the opponent into breaking sleep clause
04:45:09 <ais523> (I actually did use serene grace blissey, but not for that reason)
04:45:21 <zzo38> Then for what reason?
04:46:46 <ais523> so that I could get it paralyzed and it couldn't get poisoned after that
04:46:55 <ais523> or, in general, I could switch it into status moves to protect it from toxic poison
04:47:02 <ais523> sleep and toxic poison are huge problems for blissey
04:47:15 <ais523> and toxic spikes will toxic poison it on every switch in
04:47:25 <Bike> here is a pokemon art http://evandahm.tumblr.com/post/63890319543/
04:47:26 <ais523> but getting it paralyzed avoids that problem
04:47:40 <ais523> also it gave a higher chance of freezing with ice beam, which is always nice
04:47:49 <ais523> and helped save on PP due to the paralysis
04:48:08 <ais523> so it tends to win long drawn-out battles
04:49:40 <ais523> my blissey was almost invincible against just about anything that wasn't able to kill it within 2 turns
04:52:01 <ais523> or toxic poison / sleep it
04:53:30 <Sgeo> What game, Pokemon?
04:53:43 <zzo38> How much do you expect use of doubling cube to affect the game?
04:58:39 <zzo38> What about formats for creating the team? There is official, custom data, rental, random, random rental, duplicate random rental, and you could have drafts and auctions too.
04:59:02 <ais523> zzo38: doubling cube works much the same way in any game
04:59:06 <zzo38> (The first two formats are Constructed and the others are Limited.)
05:00:56 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, Official and Custom Data would correspond to Standard and Proxy.
05:02:08 <zzo38> ais523: How do you think it is affecting pokemon game specifically though, what kind of strategies may differ as a result?
05:02:32 <Bike> Seven hundred and sixty one armless and legless corpses float inconspicuously around the inside of hangar ninety six. I say that they are inconspicuous because it is their arms and legs which demand my attention.
05:02:55 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think it'd affect it in any specific way compared to other games
05:08:19 <zzo38> Which formats do you prefer, Constructed, Limited, or both? (I always play the Limited formats myself, both in Magic: the Gathering and in Pokemon.)
05:10:36 <zzo38> What time controls do you use?
05:11:25 <Bike> novikov self-consistency
05:13:46 <zzo38> In a match consisting of multiple battles, there are even more things to consider: DELETE FAINTED POKEMON = NO | YES DELETED POKEMON GO TO OPPONENT'S COMPUTER = NO | YES SURRENDER COMMAND = BATTLE | MATCH POKEMON CENTER PRICE = PROHIBIT | REQUIRE | 0..99999 and of course the doubling cube is also one thing that applies to a match of multiple battles.
05:14:59 <zzo38> Such things as interest rates and inflation rates would also apply in such case if money is being used.
05:16:12 <zzo38> How do you expect these to affect strategies?
05:37:20 <zzo38> I made up a kind of Pokemon mahjong. It includes typed and typeless wildcards (typeless wildcards are only dealt after a drawn game and otherwise unused). There are two kind of sequences possible (numeric and evolutionary). A called set ("chii" or "pon") has to be unambiguous; for example, [2,joker,fire] is unambiguous, but [4,joker,fire] is ambiguous (it may represent [3,4,5], [4,5,6], or [4,4,4]), and [1,joker,fire] is not valid.
05:37:50 <zzo38> (It is OK for a closed set to be ambiguous.)
05:39:03 <zzo38> ([3,joker,fire] is also ambiguous; it represents either [2,3,4] or [3,4,5], but not [3,3,3]. If you understand Pokemon then you should understand this!)
05:40:40 <Bike> I don't understand this.
05:40:51 <zzo38> Do you understand Pokemon?
05:41:59 <zzo38> What part did you not quite understand?
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05:48:16 <zzo38> Also, [1,2,joker] is unambiguous, [2,3,joker] is ambiguous, and [150,151,joker] is unambiguous in first generation but ambiguous in later generations. Hopefully this is clear enough, since there is no zero (if there is then clearly it is ambiguous).
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06:12:11 <Taneb> Been playing Guns of Icarus Online
06:16:26 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jd-iaYLO1A
06:16:35 <Sgeo> (US-politics related)
06:24:52 <oerjan> @tell quintopia <quintopia> isn't there a bot here that can do unit conversion <-- yes, `frink on HackEgo
06:25:31 <HackEgo> 4000000000000000/45359237 (approx. 8.818490487395103e7)
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06:28:40 <oerjan> @tell quintopia `frink 40 Gg -> pound
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07:34:31 <Gracenotes> say, how many years should I renew my domain for
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07:38:14 <ais523> Gracenotes: I went for 3 because I got a discount on that
07:38:35 <ais523> I doubt it matters much, though
07:38:42 <ais523> so long as you know you're going to hold onto it
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07:44:25 <Gracenotes> I ended up choosing 3 because it looks like it's a magic number, but I think the cost for me scales up proportionally
07:46:29 <Gracenotes> if I die and my domain expires shortly after, surely that will be sad, but I won't be around for it.
08:07:29 <oerjan> clearly what we need is for people to pay for the next period 3 years before the previous runs out.
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08:19:53 <Taneb> I'm losing my battle against sleep
08:20:32 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sun Oct 13 09:20:33
08:21:05 <Taneb> I've been awake for ~24 hours
08:22:10 <Gracenotes> ...er, jeez, it's 1:21AM here. when did that happen.
08:24:13 <Gracenotes> after about 4 years of thinking about doing so, I'm writing an HTML page about all of the projects I've done
08:24:28 <Gracenotes> or, at least starting to. I think I've started to before.
08:24:41 <Gracenotes> mostly a lot of technical reports that I have no reason not to publish.
08:25:27 <Gracenotes> maybe it's a bit against the point that I'm only starting to do this now that I'm gainfully employed.
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08:41:21 <Gracenotes> (yeah, partly in that sharing ideas is nicer when you have mostly-unstructured free time...)
08:50:47 <fizzie> Every time I see a polished sphere I get this urge to photograph it. (Cf. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131013-balls.jpg for example.)
08:55:24 <fizzie> Also https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131013-balls2.jpg and so on and so forth.
08:59:23 <oerjan> if fizzie ever meets a disco ball we won't see him again.
08:59:45 <fizzie> oerjan: I own a disco ball, yet here I am.
09:00:14 <oerjan> oh right, you solved the problem by bringing it with you. fiendish.
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09:00:51 <oerjan> Taneb: what seems to be the problem.
09:01:11 <Taneb> oerjan, i slightly haven't slept
09:01:32 <oerjan> ic. we shall use the ancient and tried procedure for this.
09:02:00 <oerjan> this is the slight problem with the ancient and tried procedure.
09:02:06 <oerjan> Taneb: GO TO SLEEPING BAG
09:02:09 <Taneb> And I'd need to cart my desktop over
09:02:15 <Taneb> I didn't bring one!
09:03:24 * oerjan has vague memories of the local (tabletop) gamer's con.
09:03:49 <oerjan> and of sleeping on mats, maybe.
09:03:56 <fizzie> Taneb: GO TO UNDER TABLE
09:03:57 <Taneb> Since my last sleep, I have consumed one bowl of cereal, one hot chocolate, one 500ml bottle of coca cola, one packet of crisps, and a lot of water
09:04:26 <Taneb> So, I'm cold, hungry, overtired, and something else
09:04:41 <oerjan> Taneb: i now also have vagure memories of the cuisine at the con. you might try a sausage if they have them.
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09:05:51 <Taneb> The only consumables they provide seem to be a ridiculous high-energy slushy thing
09:06:04 * oerjan also has vague memories of the second con where he gave up and went home to sleep.
09:07:33 <oerjan> my memory is too vague to tell whether i returned after sleeping or not.
09:18:08 <oklofok> lol you used to be such a nerd
09:18:32 <oklofok> what were you like at lan parties
09:18:46 <oerjan> i never went to a lan party that i can recall
09:18:58 <oklofok> i thought gamer con was some kind of lan party
09:19:23 <oerjan> these days it can be, which is why i added the "tabletop".
09:20:19 <oerjan> these were board games and role playing games (which weren't computer games either).
09:20:30 <oklofok> oh ok i was not familiar with that term.
09:20:36 <oklofok> i thought it meant a computer.
09:21:01 <fizzie> No, that's a *desk*top, obviously a completely different thing.
09:21:18 <oerjan> you just cannot win when people start stealing your terminology.
09:21:47 <oklofok> so what were you like at board game parties
09:22:16 <oklofok> i'm thinking beer bong & cocaine
09:22:36 <fizzie> I went to Ropecon (a tabletop-ish gamer con, though it's related things too) once or twice, and also have "fond" memories of the "cuisine". (Also haven't really been able to look at potato salad the same way since.)
09:23:01 <oerjan> these were drug and alcohol free. they were trying to recruit youngsters to the club, after all.
09:23:01 <oklofok> i've been to konklaavi, which i guess is turku's attempt at ropecon
09:23:31 <oklofok> i played this board game where you program a robot
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09:24:03 <oerjan> (i think i saw it played but never played myself)
09:25:03 <oklofok> i think that was the only thing i played, i usually prefer watching
09:25:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Also I think I left some potato salad on a table with a "free to take (if you don't bring it back)" sign while sleeping somewhere nearby, and when I woke up, *someone had taken it*.
09:26:22 <oerjan> fizzie: worked perfectly then!
09:27:13 <fizzie> They also had a Brockian Ultra-Cricket tournament there, because I tried sleeping in a plastic-tubing-duct-tape-and-foam canoe that someone had made for a weapon.
09:27:20 * oerjan has an eerie premonition
09:27:54 <oerjan> nope, this year's con isn't until a month from now.
09:29:16 <fizzie> Ropecon XX (20th time) this year was in late July. (Didn't go.)
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10:04:05 <myname> sad thing i'm way too stupid for military
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10:12:31 <Phantom_Hoover> dammit Taneb, clear rooms of stone before furnishing them
10:13:12 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: how that?
10:14:28 <Phantom_Hoover> it even makes the temperature system not half your FPS
10:15:17 <nooodl> how do people "get into" df these days
10:16:58 <Phantom_Hoover> uh-oh, i think i cooked all our plump helmets and most of the booze
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10:26:43 <Phantom_Hoover> meanwhile, a ranger is shooting at a carp out of some sense of dwarven triumphalism
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10:30:08 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: it still doesn't work without X, though
10:31:12 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: i don't do windows
10:31:21 <myname> thing is, i'm playing df via ssh
10:31:52 <fizzie> X goes over SSH just fine. (For some values of "just fine" that aren't very large for slow links.)
10:32:09 <fizzie> (And there's things for that scenario too.)
10:32:34 <myname> exactly that is my problem
10:32:51 <myname> i may have to search for a good way of using it
10:33:06 <myname> tbh, i use the liquids hack a lot
10:34:30 <myname> i just don't like pumping magma up all the way :(
10:34:50 <fizzie> I'm not sure I understand why adding hooks to libsdl would be incompatible with networksing the SDL output.
10:35:06 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: i have a werebeast with no military :/
10:35:38 <myname> fizzie: afaik dfhack forks itself into df to get the pid
10:36:29 <fizzie> myname: I'm still not seeing how that's relevant.
10:37:05 <fizzie> (Of course I don't know anything about dfhack, or df in general.)
10:37:05 <myname> one may hack dfhack to make it work other ways, but afaik it doesn't work with networking right now
10:39:35 <fizzie> I guess I just don't get it. If you have SDL library using an X backend, it ought to use the X server reached through $DISPLAY even if there's patches to the library, or it's started in some fancy way.
10:39:51 <Phantom_Hoover> the farms aren't producing any food for whatever reason
10:48:30 <fizzie> Well, I just started dfhack on my workstation at work some 6 kilometres away, and I don't understand anything of what's happining, but I did get a "DFHack is ready" in the console, and a SDL window with "Slaves to Armok: God of Blood" Chapter II title in it.
10:49:07 <fizzie> So as far as I can tell, it seems to be working just fine forwarded over a SSH connection. (Two, in fact, since the workstation in question isn't directly reachable from the outside; had to go through a shell server first.)
10:50:05 <fizzie> (It's typically forwarded-X laggy, and there's no sound because of "Dynamically loading the OpenAL library failed, disabling sound" and anyway networked sound is a bigger headache always, but other than that.)
10:50:31 <Phantom_Hoover> sound in df consists of one music track playing on a loop
10:51:08 <fizzie> "Forwarded-X laggy" meaning about one second between keypress and action in the title screen.
10:51:41 <fizzie> But there are things one can do to make forwarded X significantly faster that shouldn't make it any less likely to work.
10:52:09 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: well, there is soundsense
10:54:41 <fizzie> (Even plain X can be borderline usable over a LAN connection, this was a VDSL2 link and through ten hops to the shell server, and four more to the workstation (different department).)
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10:57:29 <fizzie> NX makes things faster though involves more setup, and there's the Xvnc approach (virtual-framebuffer X on the same box as the process + compressed VNC for the screen), and I seem to recall hearing about something NX-y except newer and better.
10:58:29 <myname> i'd still prefer it just sitting in the terminal, but i guess it can't be helped
11:02:28 <fizzie> With the usual "faster SSH" flags ("-C -c blowfish-cbc,arcfour" -- compression and faster encryption methods, if you dare) the input lag in the title screen drops to something like 0.2 seconds, maybe. (Hard to judge.) I've used programs with interfaces this slow locally.
11:03:31 <fizzie> (Possibly the compression made more of a difference, I don't believe it's a CPU-bound thing at these link speeds.)
11:06:00 <Phantom_Hoover> CPU-bound and dwarf fortress are phrases which fit together nicely
11:06:36 <myname> that is one reason i don't want to play it on my netbook
11:07:04 <Phantom_Hoover> amazingly in my last fort there wasn't any slowdown, at all
11:07:19 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm not sure whether it's having a better laptop or dfhack or both, though
11:07:43 <myname> i played a nanofortress once
11:07:55 <myname> it was like "wow, this stuff actually can be fast"
11:09:47 <myname> if it were just for liquids, i might transfer the savegame and make that stuff locally
11:09:57 <myname> that doesn't help withmilitary, though
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11:12:08 <fizzie> Oh, right Xpra was the other fancy thing for slow-link X I was thinking of.
11:13:11 <myname> well, the brokenness is not my personal main issue
11:13:20 <myname> it's just too complicated for me
11:13:34 <myname> everything is fine but military
11:16:14 <myname> well, that and textile industry tbh
11:16:45 <myname> i had a fortress once that got completely destroyed by the clothing-for-happiness update
11:16:53 <myname> and i'm kinda traumatized since then
11:22:34 <myname> yeah, but not very good ones
11:24:32 <myname> i want my dorfs like i want my women: happy and drunk
11:50:17 <nooodl> i'm no expert on english pronunciation but i feel like it should be "dorvs"
11:51:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the two things you can make a backpack with are leather and adamantine
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14:09:35 <fizzie> The first hit is always free?
14:09:47 <myname> i doubt i will play it somewhere as good as you
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14:29:11 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, if you want the save then i'll kill the ambush before handing it over, but i recommend setting up a hospital asap
14:31:22 <Phantom_Hoover> oh it just figures, the one dorf who dies has to be the expedition leader/manager/bookkeeper
14:32:27 <myname> one time i had an ambush and my leader was like "okay, i gotta go and watch what's happening there"
14:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> why am i producing no drink! why are hungry dorfs going straight for the plump helmets rather than the prepared meals!!!
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14:56:47 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, http://www.filedropper.com/region3 if you're man enough
14:57:41 <fizzie> *swoon* such a manly file
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15:17:43 <zzo38> A rule I was thinking to use in Pokemon battle game is PP factor, which is 5 by default but you might play with a lower PP factor in case 5 is too easy.
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15:32:07 <Koen_> zzo38: well I guess that depends on the game mechanics
15:32:25 <Koen_> I recall in the video games 5 was the lowest, and most attacks had 15 or 20
15:32:37 <lambdabot> kmc said 1d 16h 40m 18s ago: the C-T thesis is about machines which can actually be built; it's easy enough to make mathematical models stronger than a Turing Machine
15:33:53 <oerjan> the C-T boundary, on the other hand.
15:35:04 <oerjan> ok so it's actually K not C
15:35:14 <oerjan> and they've just renamed T to Pg.
15:36:27 <fizzie> Apparently you can blame the Germans for the K, unsurprisingly.
15:36:47 <oerjan> i really knew that. it's "Kritt" in norwegian.
15:37:14 <zzo38> Koen_: They are a multiple of five (or sometimes just one); this "PP factor" is the multipler to use in place of five (if set to zero, all attacks with have 1 PP)
15:38:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Liitu(kausi) in Finnish, for some reason.
15:40:47 <fizzie> Though limestone in general is "kalkki(kivi)", which I would assume comes from the same place as chalk.
15:40:55 <oerjan> presumably a lot of chalk was made at the time.
15:42:28 <fizzie> Yes, I was just wondering about the etymology of "liitu".
15:43:39 <fizzie> The two generic Finnish dictionaries I have web-access to don't include etymology entries.
15:47:05 <fizzie> I suppose "liitu" and "kritt" could also share roots, actually. (Also it's "kriit" in Estonian.)
15:48:11 <oerjan> i can understand dropping a k, but why would the r turn into l, given that finnish has proper r.
15:48:22 <fizzie> Perhaps someone misheard.
15:48:29 <oerjan> maybe it's been borrowed via a language that doesn't have r
15:48:51 <fizzie> "From Swedish krita" says the Wiktionary of fi:liitu.
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15:50:15 <oerjan> maybe finnish didn't have r until it started heavy borrowing?
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15:51:01 <Yogi_Bear> Invitation http://www.tatuuu.com.br
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15:51:05 <fizzie> I've certainly not heard of that being the case.
15:54:30 <fizzie> Proto-Uralic, according to Wikipedia, does have a trill /r/.
15:56:57 <oerjan> but has that been preserved as /r/ in finnish
15:58:01 <fizzie> At least in the single 'r'-containing example word the "Vocabulary" section of the Proto-Uralic article has.
16:00:53 <oerjan> what about word-initially
16:00:59 <fizzie> The other "kr"-starting Swedish examples that have a similar-sounding Finnish word I can think of generally have a 'r' left. Like krabba <=> rapu.
16:01:23 <oerjan> maybe the etymology is just mistaken.
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16:02:25 <fizzie> Or both k and r, like kris-kriisi.
16:03:19 <oerjan> presumably more is preserved the newer the loan
16:07:13 <fizzie> There's a Finnish etymological database but I don't have access to it. There's also a freely available database of cross-references, which lists five book-and-page entries discussing "liitu", but of course not the contents.
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17:06:30 <zzo38> Is there a C library for cross-platform access of what is the directory where the executable program is stored and files that override ones in that directory? SDL 2 has some, but it isn't available in SDL 1 and uses UTF-8 rather than native filenames, and I want to use native filenames instead.
17:13:50 <zzo38> Also I wanted a cross-platform printing library so that I can just send ESC/P codes and it converts them and sends them to the printer.
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18:46:43 <zzo38> I want to know some cross-platform library to support printing with ESC/P codes so that I can use it with the Z-machine interpreter.
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18:58:55 <Sgeo_> https://code.google.com/p/awib/
19:00:09 <Sgeo_> (NSFW source code)
19:01:32 <Sgeo_> The source code is arranged as ASCII art of a naked woman
19:03:29 <zzo38> Do you like give away chess puzzle? Do you like tsume shogi?
19:05:35 <Bike> ah yeah gonna get off on this triangle of space characters
19:10:44 <FireFly> For instance, malware could probably be considered NSFW...
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19:17:29 <tswett> Hey, I think Gregor did a great job on that new album. I really liked the face paint.
19:21:38 <zzo38> I have two different ideas of making a text adventure game; do you like any of this?
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19:43:43 <zzo38> tswett: What album is that?
19:44:16 <tswett> The one that's coming out on the 29th.
19:44:20 * oerjan assumes some gregorian chant
19:57:15 <Sgeo_> I should totally make some Racket language that makes Racket more like Tcl
20:06:59 <zzo38> One of the games is there is one starting room with many spell stones (like scrolls, but much more heavy), you have to pick a few and go through everywhere else and use that to your advantage and them come back, get new ones, go around again, until you have completed the game. Do you like this?
20:08:29 <myname> i may be playing it, but i won't write it
20:08:38 <zzo38> Of course I write the game, not you
20:08:49 <zzo38> I would also write the other game trilogy
20:10:11 <zzo38> (For the other game that I didn't just describe now, that is why I was asking about DNA that goes the other way, and I study other scientific things)
20:10:17 <myname> well, personally i am looking for a game idea to realize
20:10:26 <myname> but i have no creativity at all
20:10:45 <zzo38> myname: Using what system, do you expect? Is it DOS, Z-machine, C+SDL, etc?
20:10:56 <zzo38> I can provide some ideas
20:11:42 <myname> well, i'd prefer a pretty boring linux shell :p
20:12:24 <zzo38> I do not understand very well what you wanted
20:12:35 <zzo38> Do you mean you are going to write in shell scripts?
20:13:04 <myname> in fact, i want to write in rust with termbox or ncurses
20:13:24 <zzo38> So it is a text grid, do you mean?
20:15:10 <zzo38> I have made various games using that in CGA Collection (some are graphical but most are text grid); will that give you any idea?
20:15:30 <zzo38> (One of my ideas was to make a game based around the limitations of the Famicom, so that I can later put it in Famicom too)
20:15:52 <myname> what limitations are you aiming at?
20:16:33 <zzo38> Mainly the PPU limitations, where there are a limit of eight sprites per scanline and areas of 2x2 tiles sharing an attribute (palette).
20:17:58 <myname> sounds interesting, but i'm not really a graphics guy
20:18:12 <zzo38> (I have made a puzzle game based on these limitations. In the CGA Collection, it is called "ATTRZONE", and it does use text mode, not graphics mode.)
20:18:50 <myname> should i know the cga collection?
20:18:51 <zzo38> You can also make text adventure games (and even text grid games) using Z-machine; I have written the Frolg assembler and the Aimfiz and Fweep interpreters, if you want to use Z-machine.
20:19:10 <zzo38> myname: Maybe; you can look if you want to at least: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/CGACOLL.ZIP
20:20:04 <zzo38> (The interpreter Fweep can run in a text window/terminal emulator, although it doesn't support grid windows, colors, etc; Aimfiz is SDL and does support grid windows and colors and so on.)
20:20:57 <myname> please use the gopher service
20:21:45 <zzo38> myname: What are you trying to access?
20:21:47 <myname> but firefox dropped gopher-support a while ago :(
20:22:02 <zzo38> I don't have an index; you have to access directly by the filenames.
20:22:32 <myname> and what's behind the gopher?
20:24:16 <zzo38> There is menus in gopher, although it is not quite complete. There are gopher clients (I have written two, one in shell scripts and one in VB6; there is also OverbiteFF to support gopher in Firefox). Probably you can just know the filename though you can access the file (even using wget or whatever; there aren't any webpages to navigate before finding the file to download)
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20:24:58 <zzo38> (You can also write your own gopher client; it is not difficult)
20:25:53 <zzo38> Just to download a file though you don't need it; you can download files over HTTP using wget or curl, or you can download files over gopher by something like "echo filename.zip | nc example.org 70 > filename.zip" or whatever.
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20:26:30 <myname> why do you even use gopher?
20:28:30 <zzo38> It doesn't use the stupid stuff of HTML and HTTP and that stuff; it also saves energy
20:29:57 <zzo38> But most files are available on HTTP too, so if you have wget or whatever you can easily download these files in that way. (You can also download or view using a web browser)
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20:34:48 <zzo38> I do have other ideas for computer games though
20:35:16 <zzo38> Such as, sokoban with strange geometry
20:36:02 <myname> that needs lots of levels, though
20:36:29 <Koen_> sokoban is "I give you the sum of each row and column and you find the numbers in each cell" right?
20:36:58 <zzo38> Or, the Z-Comp theme, which is this: Richardson fire // 2009-10 Leicester City F.C. season // Merciful to gibbering mouthers and the other monsters (pick one, two, or all three combined; that would be difficult)
20:37:10 <Koen_> I once played a wooden game kinda like that where there was a skycrapper in every cell and you could see the projection on very row and column
20:37:26 <zzo38> Sokoban is push the blocks on the targets
20:37:38 <myname> Koen_: that's part of simon tathams portable puzzle collection
20:37:46 <Koen_> that is, if one row has skycrappers of height 3, 4, 1, 2 and you're looking from the right, you only see that there is a height 2, and behind it a height 4
20:38:05 <myname> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/
20:38:14 <zzo38> Koen_: I have played a similar game except that it only tell you how many are visible, not their height
20:38:25 <Koen_> okay maybe that was it
20:40:20 <zzo38> myname: Do you like any of these ideas I wrote now? I do have some others ideas too
20:40:58 <myname> where there some i missed?
20:41:30 <myname> the sokoban may be interesting to play, but it would bore the shit out of me as a developer as i have to know all the levels already
20:42:03 <zzo38> Another idea is some game that you have to prevent all of the magnets from touching each other; I am unsure how to make such a computer game though
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20:49:00 <zzo38> Here are some other computer game ideas (some aren't mine, but most are): http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10081 See if that help you at something
20:50:55 <zzo38> myname: Are these good?
20:51:19 <myname> have to read them first :D
20:52:08 <myname> where do you get all those ideas
20:52:59 <myname> i do like "hoplite" for android
20:53:18 <myname> it's a roguelike where moving into an opponent is NOT a method to attack
20:53:29 <myname> that alone makes it very interesting
20:54:01 <zzo38> Yes, OK, if you move into opponent what happens, is your path blocked, do you enter the same space, or what?
20:55:11 <myname> you attack by either move from next to a monster to another tile next to it (it's hexa tiled)
20:55:38 <zzo38> O, I think I once made up a chess variant like that
20:55:47 <myname> or moving in it's direction and sting
20:56:12 <myname> or throw your lance (in which case you may not sting until you get it again)
20:56:34 <myname> so every permanent way of attacking requires you to be able to move
20:57:10 <zzo38> Yes, that is understandable now
20:57:23 <zzo38> And yes it is a bit similar to some chess variant I once made (although it wasn't hex)
20:58:01 <myname> http://www.nongnu.org/tong/ looks a bit like your third idea, even if it's not pinball
20:59:04 <myname> also, i played some mix of minesweeper and dungeon ascending, very interesting idea
21:02:16 <zzo38> Yes, I have played that too
21:02:41 <zzo38> I have designed a roguelike called KING and someone reviewed it too
21:07:25 <myname> zzo38: what do you mean by "delayed by different amounts"?
21:09:22 <zzo38> I don't really know exactly
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21:16:02 <nooodl> i'm torn between "yes" and keeping the game alive
21:16:11 <nooodl> really i think i'll have to go for "no" though :(
21:16:23 <nooodl> maybe i should learn how to play df decently and then i could play in a couple of years!!
21:16:33 <nooodl> (plot twist: irl years)
21:16:44 <myname> not really a plot twist
21:16:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't get why people get so caught up on that, elliott was shit and he never let that stop him
21:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> you need to have that can-do spirit that leads to the fort collapsing utterly because it ran out of booze for no good reason
21:17:49 <myname> i need a working military system
21:18:43 <zzo38> I am also writing a roguelike called "Savant's Maze"; rooms may be generated overlapping and one of the terrain is windows that you can see through but not move through. I implemented data structures, line of sight, level generation, and a few others and then I can add the rest.
21:19:11 <Phantom_Hoover> the way i left it the only thing the military needed was for steel armour to be made; they'd train and equip themselves on their own
21:20:26 <Bike> elliott: so if i get a virtual server thing to run shit on + stop annoying people by disconnecting who should i be renting from
21:21:07 <zzo38> Do you like any other of my computer game ideas too?
21:23:08 <myname> i like the idea of guarding something, but it's missing
21:25:24 <fizzie> Bike: I've used prgmr and tilaa so far, and both have been just fine.
21:26:08 <myname> maybe one could make a roguelike with some tourist exploring a dungeon on his own
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21:27:36 <myname> like, you are rodney and have to stop an adventurer
21:27:37 <fizzie> Bike: And esolangs.org is on linode, which is I think reasonably popular, if not quite the most "budget" option (though certainly also not the most expensive) out there.
21:28:13 <Bike> that warning about not getting phished is scary
21:28:45 <fizzie> They had some nasty security issues a while back, but that could be a function of popularity too.
21:29:03 <Bike> i mean, i don't know what to do to avoid getting haxed.
21:29:54 <impomatic> Does anyone use a personal wiki or something similar? I need something to help me organise some stuff...
21:29:54 <fizzie> "Don't install Wordpress/Drupal/other-big-web-thing" seems to be a good step.
21:30:08 <Bike> impomatic: i used to use tiddlywiki
21:30:49 <fizzie> I used to use DokuWiki.
21:31:12 <fizzie> It's perhaps less "personal".
21:31:27 <fizzie> In that people use it "for reals".
21:31:39 <Bike> tiddlywiki is just one page with a shitload of javascript, nice and easy
21:32:13 <fizzie> As for organizing stuff, there's of course good old venerable org-mode.
21:33:00 <fizzie> Some people[citation needed][who?][dubious - discuss] are very... ardent about org-mode.
21:33:53 <Bike> isn't it [weasel words] more than [citation needed]
21:34:52 <fizzie> And perhaps not very dubious, but I like how the "dubious-discuss" sounds.
21:35:17 <Bike> yeah it's good
21:38:03 <impomatic> Grrrr... wikipedia. "It is proposed that this article be deleted because of the following concern: Notability"
21:43:17 <myname> wikipedia even deleted the subtitles for the modem dial-in sound :(
21:45:46 <Phantom_Hoover> http://hackadaycom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/dial-up-handshake-infographic.png this thing
21:46:11 <myname> there is a dial-up modem sound
21:46:29 <myname> like "bow beep beep beep" and stuff
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23:32:24 <HegoDamask> i am trying to solve a riddle where esoteric programming is involved, anybody willing to help me out with some really basic stuff?
23:33:22 <HegoDamask> basically i have shakespeare prorgamming code, and it should give me some "hello world"-like program outputting 2 numbers.
23:33:37 <HegoDamask> but i dont know how to compile this kinda stuff
23:34:01 <mnoqy> does the wiki page have any resources
23:34:29 <HegoDamask> well i found the compiler software for linux, unfortunately i dont run on linux and have next to zero knowledge on using it
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23:35:43 <HegoDamask> is there compiler softare for windows?
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23:57:07 <Fiora> what language is the code in?
23:59:15 <Bike> @google esolang shakespeare
23:59:16 <lambdabot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Shakespeare