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02:46:59 <HegoDamask> have to leave now i will try my luck again tomorrow, thanks anyways guys
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05:42:14 <zzo38> The control scheme in the Apogee games "Pharaoh's Tomb" and "Arctic Adventure" is something I didn't see in other platformer games and is the control scheme I happen to prefer: left/right shift keys to move left/right, space jumps, and any of ZXCVBNM,./ shoots.
05:53:25 <zzo38> It looks like someone is making a NES/Famicom game entirely in hex coding!!!!
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06:58:56 <fizzie> "xmlset_roodkcableoj28840ybtide" :)
07:06:27 <olsner> > echo roodkcableoj28840ybtide | rev
07:06:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:30: parse error on input `|'
07:06:35 <olsner> `run echo roodkcableoj28840ybtide | rev
07:06:46 <kmc> MDZhB 24 664 NAYeMNICA 34 21 29 93 priyom
07:07:01 <kmc> olsner: O_O
07:07:31 <kmc> i didn't know that wrinkle of it
07:07:53 <kmc> i wonder if 04882 is joel's bank code
07:08:53 <fizzie> Possibly a version control revision number.
07:08:57 <fizzie> ("What version control?")
07:09:13 <fizzie> zzo38: It's a backdoor recently published in D-Link routers. It lets you access the web config interface if you give a HTTP User-Agent with that string.
07:10:13 <fizzie> (Apparently it's intended purpose is to let some tools on the router change settings.)
07:11:12 <fizzie> Or maybe an employee ID or something.
07:11:23 <fizzie> Perhaps Joel's user account is 04882joel.
07:12:28 <kmc> the influence of illuminati numerology is obvious
07:12:40 <kmc> most obvious in the fact that it doesn't contain any of the usual illuminati numbers
07:13:19 <zzo38> What are usual illuminati numbers, and what does that have anything to do with it?
07:13:27 <kmc> 17, 23, 5, etc
07:13:50 <kmc> and, little to nothing
07:13:53 <Bike> if the illuminati wanted to hide their influence they wouldn't include any of the usual numbers. c'mon zzo get with it
07:14:51 <zzo38> Bike: I suppose you are correct about that, but if you really want to hide your influence then, if the numbers happen to occur naturally anyways then you would use them anyways just because it goes that way
07:15:13 <Bike> but if the illuminati numbers are in it you know the illuminati did it.
07:16:26 <Bike> why would the illuminati numbers be in it if not for the illuminati
07:16:57 <zzo38> That's what they want you to think!
07:17:26 <Bike> if it was what they wanted me to think they would hav eput the numbers somewhere in the think but they didn't so they didn't.
07:17:30 <kmc> apparently "NAYeMNICA" means "mercenary"
07:17:55 <kmc> it would be funny if the numbers station codebook happened to pick 'mercenary' as the code word for 'mercenary' and they had to use it anyway because what zzo38 said
07:18:21 <zzo38> Bike: No, I mean *that* is what they want you to think.
07:18:23 <Bike> that is how they broke enigma after all
07:18:31 <Bike> zzo38: right and that doesn't have any numbers in it
07:19:16 <kmc> some of the CIA's CORONA satellites were done in by (coincidentally named) corona discharge
07:19:33 <kmc> Bike: you mean the fact that it never mapped a letter to itself? yeah that was useful
07:20:16 <kmc> i dunno if you can attribute breaking enigma to that one thing though
07:20:25 <kmc> the third reich HATES this 1 weird old trick for winning world war 2
07:20:51 <Bike> probably not, but i hav eto demonstrate that i know irrelevant facts about seventy year old ciphers somehow
07:21:04 <zzo38> You think it needs to have numbers in it......
07:21:15 <zzo38> Not necessarily.......
07:21:21 <kmc> the polish intelligence agency was reading enigma traffic before it was cool
07:22:42 <fizzie> "Enigma Traffic" is probably a band name.
07:23:26 <Bike> apparently there's a town called Enigma in georgia
07:23:59 <Bike> i tell you this because googling "Enigma Traffic" will find you some lawyers for dealing with traffic tickets in this town
07:24:58 <fizzie> Some of those NSA code names are p. funny too. (EGOISTICALGIRAFFE?)
07:25:23 <Bike> that's just what they want you to think.
07:25:27 <Bike> egotesticlegiraffe
07:26:58 <fizzie> I remember reading some Clancy novel "Way Back" -- hey, you go with what's available -- where they (people at CIA) called some guy downstairs for random names out of a random-name machine.
07:27:04 <zzo38> So that you will misspell it
07:27:37 <fizzie> I wonder if that's how it works for reals.
07:27:49 <Bike> it was back in the seventies.
07:28:22 <Bike> well, sometimes.
07:28:34 <Bike> looks like the codename for the FBI was "ODENVY" which sounds slightly less than coincidental.
07:28:51 <Bike> and... ODYOKE for the US federal government, that's slightly terrifying.
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07:29:09 <fizzie> [[ “That’s next.” Moore lifted his phone again and tapped in five numbers. “I need two words…Uh-huh, thank you.” He wrote a few things down. “Okay, gentlemen, you’re calling this Operation MANDOLIN. You, Ryan, are Magi. ]]
07:29:11 <Bike> something about the ETA was LINCOLN though.
07:29:33 <zzo38> They do it on purpose; they don't want other people to spell it correctly.
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07:30:38 <fizzie> It is nice that I have some brainspace apparently permanently wasted storing the bit of information that the random word they got in a book I read 15-20 years ago was MANDOLIN.
07:31:33 <Bike> to be fair, mandolins are great.
07:45:55 <zzo38> All opponent's pokemon card are futile.
07:48:35 <kmc> if you say so
08:02:10 <impomatic> Now a bit of my brainspace is wasted storing info about fizzie's random word! :-/
08:02:26 <impomatic> To be fair, most of my brainspace is wasted :-)
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08:09:44 <oerjan> <zzo38> Another idea is some game that you have to prevent all of the magnets from touching each other; I am unsure how to make such a computer game though <-- tatham's collection also has a "magnets" game, although the point there is you can only touch + sides to - sides.
08:10:51 <oerjan> (they're marked with + and - instead of N and S, for some reason.)
08:19:01 <oerjan> 21:33:00: <fizzie> Some people[citation needed][who?][dubious - discuss] are very... ardent about org-mode.
08:19:04 <oerjan> 21:33:53: <Bike> isn't it [weasel words] more than [citation needed]
08:19:21 <oerjan> {{who?}} is a weasel words template afair
08:20:11 * impomatic goes to check his favourite pages on Wikipedia
08:21:19 <oerjan> they decided to delete Irregular Webcomic! too :(
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09:44:32 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA* my theory about girl genius was right
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10:02:53 <oerjan> ^ul (That )S(that ):S(is )::SS~::SS~:(not )*:SS:S~S(it ):SSS
10:02:53 <fungot> That that is is that that is not is not is that it it is
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10:49:01 <fizzie> The most unbalanced-parenthesisy of computers.
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11:30:19 <fizzie> "The Cutwail botnet is known as "0bulk Psyche Evolution" in the underground market."
11:30:22 <fizzie> That sounds so sci-fi.
11:44:07 <Jafet> If I had a cool botnet, I wouldn't call it Cutwail.
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11:45:56 <Taneb> Should I audition for Iolanthe
11:50:21 <Taneb> An operetta about the queen of the fairies and the house of lords
11:52:54 <Taneb> That is it is about someone who is the queen of the fairies
11:53:07 <Taneb> And her interactions with the British House of Lords
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13:31:08 <Yogi_Bear> Invitation < Only Development > http://www.tatuuu.com.br
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14:51:08 <FireFly> fungot: what's your opinion re. spam?
14:51:08 <fungot> FireFly: adding a language to be in boundary(a) if every neighbourhood about x contains at least an initial fnord of 40 fnord. internet expo on fnord. fnord
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16:31:26 <oerjan> that /whowas list was impressive
16:49:42 <fizzie> fungot: You sound just like a real mathematician.
16:49:42 <fungot> fizzie: i know about windoz is less then 1/ 3; 2/ 7 then 1/ 2; 1/ 4 cup milk, 1/ 3
16:50:12 <oerjan> fungot: mathematics isn't just arithmetic, you know
16:50:12 <fungot> oerjan: whats that? sure :) i'll think about it. :) actually, i can't run my own mx with dreamhost, that's all
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17:16:59 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131014-4679.png I can't figure out if it's *supposed* to look like that. Maybe it is.
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17:18:40 <oerjan> clearly the graph snagged on the rotating database
17:18:52 <oerjan> no wonder it cannot take the load
17:19:43 <shachaf> kmc: http://ikeaordeath.com/
17:20:10 <HackEgo> olist (924): shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
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17:20:17 <fizzie> I was wondering about http://sprunge.us/hbUQ but I think it's just Skype futilely trying to punch through a NAT or something, based on the source address.
17:22:28 <oerjan> darn it was so easy until i got "samspelt"
17:22:46 <oerjan> (it's the first word that was both genuine swedish and related to music)
17:23:10 <fizzie> I got that right, though mostly accidentally.
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17:23:18 <fizzie> It didn't really sound "heavy" enough to be the other.
17:23:36 <oerjan> "Lack" is the table i have, i think
17:23:37 <fizzie> Knowing at least some Swedish probably makes it easier than not knowing.
17:23:59 <fizzie> LACK is a pretty popular series.
17:24:19 <oerjan> darn i also got "Von" wrong
17:24:22 <fizzie> It's not just a side table, there's also a TV stand and a wall shelf and whatnot.
17:24:50 <fizzie> You are a better IKEA.
17:25:22 <oerjan> i was very unsure on that too. "Von" means hope in nynorsk, but also is an obvious german name prefix.
17:25:39 <oerjan> and i was not sure if it meant something in swedish.
17:26:20 <oerjan> there were some others that i were nervous about, but they all went right
17:26:42 <fizzie> I had more trouble in the start, then I got in the "groove" and just clicked.
17:27:43 <FireFly> I really just went with whether it's a valid swedish word
17:29:02 <fizzie> Not all IKEA names are exact valid Swedish words.
17:29:47 <oerjan> indeed, some are place names from other parts of scandinavia
17:30:28 <oerjan> when i was in ikea last time i noticed "Hemnes", which is where my aunt used to live.
17:31:04 <fizzie> I think there's some Finnish names in there.
17:31:12 <fizzie> PELLO is a municipality in Finland.
17:31:28 <fizzie> Though apparently there's one also on Sweden's side too.
17:31:36 <oerjan> indeed, there was one in the quiz which i was nervous whether it could be a finnish place name, but i guess metal and was right.
17:31:42 <fizzie> (Opposite to Pello, Finland across the river.)
17:32:14 <oerjan> um i forget but it had a double vowel
17:32:57 <fizzie> I don't think it's a place. It doesn't quite sound Finnish.
17:32:57 <oerjan> hm i guess that's not very good vowel harmony
17:33:14 <fizzie> It's acceptable ('e' goes with front vowels too), but it feels somewhat off.
17:33:20 <fizzie> Then again, so do some actual places too.
17:34:37 <oerjan> oh hm it's probably the archaic spelling of no:tåke = en:fog
17:35:08 <fizzie> It is related to that, according to the Wikipedia page of the metal band.
17:36:47 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure that "oe" for "ø" is proper archaic spelling :D
17:37:19 <oerjan> the band seems to use that a lot
17:40:18 <fizzie> We went through Ekenäs the other day, that's such a Swedish-speaking place.
17:40:25 <fizzie> "The town is bilingual, with the majority being Swedish speakers (81%), and the minority Finnish speakers (17%)."
17:40:52 <fizzie> It's worse (or better, I guess that depends on point of view) than Hanko even though geographi-logically speaking it should be the other way around.
17:46:48 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131014-thing.jpg -- that was in Ekenäs. Can someone of you decipher what it means?
17:50:09 <oerjan> "now it's time to make a memory picture of your (still hot) summer ..." um
17:50:36 <fizzie> All the words seems to make sense in itself, but I am unable to sort of comprehend the whole.
17:50:38 <oerjan> not quite sure how to translate jag. and then it gets worse.
17:51:03 <oerjan> it's swedish, so "I" (or "Ego")
17:51:30 <fizzie> olsner: Comments from a native Swedishperson?
17:51:45 <fizzie> Though this thing was put up by a Swedish-speaking Finn, which is quite another thing altogether.
17:52:35 <oerjan> ok the _overall_ gist is "Make sure to remember how your summer is, it'll make it easier to survive the winter."
17:52:56 <fizzie> I guess that's more or less what I got out of it too.
17:53:02 <oerjan> it's just ridiculously pompously technobabbly expanded :P
17:53:52 <fizzie> It was next (nearly next) to a mini-golf course that had a "closed due to lack of players" on it.
17:54:07 <Koen__> I think it's got something to do about computer science
17:54:15 <oerjan> Koen__: that's "reference points"
17:54:27 <Koen__> should I take your word for it??
17:55:14 <fizzie> (Add the word "sign" to some suitable place in the preceding.)
17:55:17 <Koen__> so is that about global warming?
17:55:43 <fizzie> It's more about how winter is too cold up here. :p
17:56:15 <oerjan> Koen__: no. it's about how in finland your general well-being and mood strongly varies according to season, and how to help that some. (this also applies to norway.)
17:56:23 <fizzie> See e.g. leftmost picture about the social wellbeing as a function of the season.
17:56:51 <fizzie> (Winter is on the left side.)
17:56:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure what scale it's calibrated on.
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17:59:57 <olsner> it appears to be a 0-5 scale
18:00:19 <fizzie> olsner: No, the outer border has a value of 1, based on the <--> in the first image.
18:00:22 <fizzie> (I note that in the last figure it goes briefly over 1, which doesn't sound necessarily all too good either.)
18:00:45 <olsner> it's also written in slightly archaic swedish .. but maybe that's just normal finnishswedish
18:01:29 <fizzie> I don't think it's very normal.
18:02:23 <fizzie> There was also this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131014-hatler.jpg
18:03:35 <fizzie> olsner: I think it's referring to "perussuomalaiset", our populist-nationalist party.
18:03:59 <fizzie> "True Finns", vaguely translated.
18:04:21 <fizzie> "perus" meaning mostly "basic, elementary" and so on.
18:04:31 <fizzie> (And "aito" meaning "genuine, real".)
18:05:31 <fizzie> I don't think they're terribly popular in the region.
18:06:15 <oerjan> in a couple days norway's populist-nationalist party (who like to deny they're as bad as those of some other countries) is getting into government.
18:06:36 <oerjan> should be interesting.
18:07:00 <fizzie> The Finnish one got 19.05% of the vote in the parliamentary election of 2011.
18:07:59 <fizzie> But they did not get into the government, though the negotiations were complicated, IIRC.
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18:09:45 <fizzie> At least it took a long time (and six parties) to form it.
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18:10:47 <oerjan> ours ended up with only two parties, but two others supporting it, and not joining because they don't want to be _too_ associated with the formerly mentioned populist party.
18:10:49 <fizzie> Incidentally, their score in Ekenäs (corresponding to that overall 19.05% figure) was just 6.4%.
18:12:13 <fizzie> I have a feeling Perussuomalaiset has been sort of slowly losing ground since that 19% win. Though it's not like I've been following any polls or anything.
18:12:57 <oerjan> our parliament only has sev... no wait, the greens got their single representative. our parliament has eight parties.
18:14:02 <ais523> oerjan: we have a single green party representative in the UK parliament too
18:14:04 <fizzie> We have 8. Plus the mandatory single representative from Åland, which I think is not in any of those.
18:14:06 <ais523> which is notable because it's FPTP
18:14:12 <oerjan> and getting as many as six of them to agree would be very unlikely.
18:14:13 <Taneb> House of Commons has 11
18:14:26 <Taneb> Plus 5-9 independents
18:14:31 <fizzie> 10 representatives from the Green League.
18:14:35 <FireFly> sometimes it feels like our parliament has two parties
18:14:36 <ais523> and thus, they had to put their best candidate into the constituency they thought had the best chance of winning, and campaign really massively
18:14:40 <Taneb> Sinn Fein as a rule don't take their seats
18:14:42 <fizzie> Down from 15 mostly due to Perussuomalaiset.
18:15:02 <ais523> Taneb: they refuse to swear allegiance to the Queen, or something like that
18:15:06 <ais523> so they're not allowed in
18:15:34 <ais523> the allegiance requirement seems a little ridiculous, really
18:15:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, pass it to elliott, maybe?
18:15:57 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, idk, but it's kind of traditional
18:16:12 <oerjan> the greens were _hoping_ for more, but they got slightly below the necessary cutoff to get fully proportional representation country-wide.
18:16:23 <Taneb> @ask elliott Can you tell Phantom_Hoover whether you want to join in this succession fortress?
18:17:12 <oerjan> without that, they have to win in a single county, which is not as hard as fptp but still much worse than getting above the cutoff.
18:17:41 <oerjan> (wait, not win, but get among that county's directly selected representatives)
18:18:03 <oerjan> all the other parties made the cutoff, although some barely.
18:18:14 <Bike> FireFly: first past the post.
18:18:20 <oerjan> FireFly: first past the post, the system used in the UK and US.
18:18:35 <Bike> the system usually results in a two-party system.
18:19:57 <Taneb> oerjan, I think the US uses an even stupider system, but I'm not sure
18:20:25 <fizzie> We have a set of 15 electoral districts too, and I think it's fully independent of all the other organizational hierarchies. (I believe it's more or less based on the old notion of "provinces", but those were reduced to six in 1997, and abolished entirely in 2010 and replaced with some other subdivisions, like the "regional state administrative agencies".)
18:20:26 <ais523> I think the US's system is theoretically slightly better than the UK's, but the political makeup makes it work worse
18:20:28 <Bike> you mean te electoral college? that's just something before the fptp
18:20:38 <fizzie> (I'm sure there is a good reason for all this.)
18:21:07 <kmc> it should be noted that Austrialia has preference voting and is a strongly two-party country
18:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> so btw while we're talking about voting systems, i'm a bit confused by arrow's theorem
18:21:17 <ais523> the US effectively elects three governmental bodies (congress, house of representatives, president)
18:21:23 <kmc> preference voting may be necessary for third parties but it's not sufficient
18:21:23 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: what about it?
18:21:31 <ais523> each of which uses different weightings
18:21:44 <Bike> ais523: by "congress" do you mean the senate...?
18:21:44 <oerjan> ais523: i recall reading on wikipedia about the mess when the uk got their first openly atheist MP
18:22:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i think there was one condition that didn't seem very important
18:22:01 <Bike> because "congress" usually includes the representatives
18:22:15 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: the tiebreaker thing?
18:23:13 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the four conditions, IIRC, are "must be deterministic and always produce a result", "cannot just ignore most of the data", "removing votes from a candidate cannot hurt their chances", "if everyone prefers candidate A to candidate B, then candidate A beats candidate B"
18:23:26 <ais523> oh, and "at least three candidates"
18:23:38 <ais523> FPTP fails the fourth condition
18:24:09 <ais523> err, I think I misworded the fourth condition
18:24:12 <fizzie> Oh, and we use D'Hondt for seat allocation here.
18:24:15 <Bike> oh and re the senate i think it's interesting that originally senators weren't popularly elected
18:24:21 <ais523> or rather, got it slightly wrong
18:24:33 <ais523> Bike: I'm really upset that the House of Lords in the UK is being moved to being elected
18:24:38 <ais523> I preferred it as hereditary
18:24:48 <Bike> are you a monarchist
18:24:53 <ais523> the hereditary Lords were generally too rich to bribe, and too apolitical to really bargain
18:24:59 <ais523> err, political bargaining, that is
18:25:07 <ais523> elections are much easier to manipulate, as are MPs
18:25:24 <ais523> so the Lords were an important sanity check, and they can't actually pass any laws by themselves anyway
18:25:34 <Bike> i can assure you that having a lot of money is no obstacle to wanting more money
18:26:15 <Taneb> Bike, it does make the bribes seem smaller
18:26:36 <Phantom_Hoover> also p. sure you can have a hereditary peerage and be broke
18:27:51 <Phantom_Hoover> also confused at your assertion that the landed gentry are apolitical
18:28:05 <ais523> perhaps I'm really misinformed
18:28:09 <ais523> it wouldn't be the first time
18:28:56 * oerjan applies some acetone to ais523's glasses to remove the rose paint
18:29:35 <Bike> so i just checked and it looks like there's a hereditary peer in UKIP
18:29:47 <fizzie> Incidentally, Finland had an electoral college for the presidential election from 1919 to 1988.
18:30:01 <ais523> Bike: given the conservative bias of the Lords, that's believable
18:30:28 <ais523> UKIP are basically just beyond the Conservatives, to the right, with the /really/ objectionable parties beyond them
18:30:44 <ais523> I consider UKIP mostly just deluded, rather than particularly evil
18:30:58 <Taneb> UKIP's the party of people reading the newspaper and grumbling about things used to be better
18:31:23 -!- NihilistDandy has quit.
18:31:24 <fizzie> (Also we had a single president for 1956-1982.)
18:32:21 <ais523> hmm… the UK doesn't have any term limits, but it's basically impossible to stay in parliament more than 2 terms (I think Tony Blair was the only person who ever managed it)
18:32:39 <ais523> people normally get fed up of the Prime Minister pretty quickly
18:32:48 <fizzie> "After nine political parties supported Kekkonen's candidacy [for his fourth term, after the third term had already been extended by a special law] in the 1978 Presidential election, including the Social Democratic, Centre and National Coalition parties, no serious rivals remained. He humiliated his opponents by not appearing in televised presidential debates and went on to win 259 out of the 300 electoral college votes, with his nearest rival, Raino West
18:32:50 <Taneb> How many terms was Thatcher?
18:32:59 <fizzie> It was a strange time, AIUI.
18:33:06 <oerjan> hm norway had electoral college for electing _parliament_ until 1905
18:33:19 <Bike> anyway, originally senators weren't hereditary, because AMERICA, they were just appointed by state representatives
18:34:08 <Bike> dunno how it got to being popular election actually, maybe that's an interesting story
18:35:00 <fizzie> "From December 1980 onwards, Kekkonen suffered from an undisclosed disease that appeared to affect his brain functions, sometimes leading to delusional thoughts. He had begun to suffer occasional brief memory lapses as early as the autumn of 1972, which became more frequent during the late 1970s." <- best choice for a president?
18:35:35 <oerjan> hey it worked for reagan
18:35:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:36:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:36:42 <Bike> reagan wasn't alzheimeric until after his presidency, probably. completely in control of his faculties. just a shit.
18:37:06 <Taneb> ais523, Thatcher managed three terms
18:37:34 <coppro> and if you go back farther, there are longer-serving PMs
18:37:38 <oerjan> also norway didn't get proportional voting until 1919, which was basically because the (then communist) labor party looked like it might get a majority under the old system.
18:38:49 <fizzie> I don't think we have any term limits for any other offices than the president.
18:39:15 <oerjan> they managed to get a majority under the new one too, but not before turning anti-communist.
18:39:28 <fizzie> The aforementioned Kekkonen did four consecutive terms as the prime minister before going on to be president for all those years.
18:39:43 <coppro> ais523: are the Lords actually going to be elected, or is it more banging around the buck?
18:40:08 <fizzie> Or maybe that was less than four.
18:40:13 <ais523> coppro: I think Labour wanted to make them elected, but they aren't in power at the moment
18:40:21 <ais523> currently the new ones are appointed, I think
18:40:25 <ais523> by the current government
18:41:11 <coppro> An elected Senate is being seriously contemplated here, but currently two different courts are trying to sort out whether or not that would even be legal without a constitutional amendment
18:41:21 -!- carado has joined.
18:41:30 <coppro> I'm opposed; I like an appointed Senate for much the same reason you like your Lords
18:41:47 <ais523> yeah, appointed seems better than electing both chambers
18:41:57 <coppro> I would rather abolition than election
18:42:08 <ais523> or at least, using the same mechanism for every chamber tends to be a bad idea because there are no real distinctions between them
18:42:44 <coppro> we do lack the safety valve of flooding the Senate as can be done with the Lords, but this hasn't been a practical problem because the Senate has never stood in the way of a budget like happened in 1910
18:43:08 <ais523> coppro: my brain's insisting on interpreting that "flooding" as literally filling the building with water
18:43:26 <coppro> I would not be opposed to making the Senate's veto on appropriations bills merely suspensory, but it should remain absolute on other legislation because otherwise it becomes toothless like the modern Lords
18:43:27 <oerjan> until a few years ago, norway had the ridiculous system of dividing the parliament into two chambers _after_ election.
18:43:46 <fizzie> Huh, the current Finnish six-party government seems to have a party cardinality (is that a term?) equal to the maximum in Finnish history; and the previous six-party one was back in 1945.
18:43:51 <ais523> the situation in the US, anyway, appears to be that the budget has a majority in every chamber but in one of them, the Speaker refuses to allow it to be debated on
18:44:31 <coppro> ais523: there's some informal rule int he Republican party that nothing goes forth to the chamber unless it is supported by a majority of the Republican caucus
18:44:47 <oerjan> the members were elected unitedly, but divided themselves into Lagting and Odelsting, with different responsibilities. (There were also plenal sessions.)
18:44:48 <coppro> this is plain dumb stupid and it amazes me that the Speaker has that much control
18:45:19 <ais523> coppro: well it'd work in Guild Council, if the Independent Chairs refused to allow something on the schedule, it'd require a 2/3 majority to overturn that
18:45:40 <ais523> and the Republicans easily control 1/3 of any chamber they want to, apart from the President
18:46:00 <coppro> most of the assemblies I've participated in feature the assumption that every member has a right to bring something forth for consideration
18:46:30 <coppro> the only slight exception to that is the Senate of the University, where a bylaw amendment must be approved to be placed on the agenda by the Executive Committee, but any member of that committee has a right to bring something forth
18:46:32 <ais523> same here, they're not supposed to unilaterally bar things from the agenda
18:47:00 <coppro> it's a hard rule though; even if something is left off the agenda, there is always opportunity to bring it forward under new business
18:47:03 <ais523> just need a proposer and a seconder to get them to add things, who don't even need voting rights (they can just be consituents)
18:48:37 <fizzie> LDC (Linguistic Data Consortium, an "open consortium" hosted by University of Pennsylvania) is not answering my emails; I was wondering if this could be blamed on your shutdown too somehow. (I guess not, since it's a private university, and it'd be a state thing anyway.)
18:48:54 <ais523> hmm, imagine if it only needed two constituents to introduce a bill in the UK parliament
18:49:39 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:52:04 <fizzie> (Also I think it's a bit confusing that there's a private University of Pennsylvania and a public Pennsylvania State University; and I think quite a lot of similar pairings.)
18:53:12 <Bike> i attend washington state university. there is a university of washington which is also public. there is also a private Washington University on the other side of the country.
18:53:14 <oerjan> i seem to recall washington university and university of washington were different entities
18:53:16 <ais523> fizzie: it's bad enough talking about the University of Birmingham to people when there's also a Birmingham City University, and Aston University which many people know is in Birmingham (and might assume would be referred to as Birmingham University colloquially)
18:53:19 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, wow you've had a tumblr for like a whole year now
18:53:33 <Bike> oerjan: ur welcome
18:54:17 * oerjan spent a half year at UofW in 1996
18:54:25 <Bike> funny story, this state was going to be called Columbia but they thought that would get confusing what with the district of columbia.
18:54:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:54:40 <fizzie> ais523: Admittedly Aalto University (where I work) used to be the Helsinki University of Technology in English, and it *was* occasionally confused with University of Helsinki. (The Finnish names were completely different.)
18:55:01 <ais523> Bike: well people mostly aren't confused about the difference between Washington state and Washington DC
18:55:09 <Bike> ais523: i can assure you that they are.
18:55:28 <Bike> we sell t shirts joking about it.
18:55:41 <oerjan> Bike: is that why the canadian one has "british" in front
18:55:43 <ais523> OTOH, New York city and New York state are quite easy to confuse
18:55:54 <ais523> due to having identical names and being in much the same physical location
18:56:12 <Bike> oerjan: i think so, yeah. adding to this problem, i'm originally from a city called Vancouver.
18:56:24 <Bike> well not "originally" but whatever
18:56:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:56:39 <Taneb> ais523, one of my friends thought that Washington was in British Columbia
18:56:55 <Bike> ais523: i usually call NYC "NYC" now, seems to work ok
18:56:56 <oerjan> where i lived before, for a while someone had put up a large map of british columbia on the wall
18:57:15 <ais523> for any particular reason?
18:57:25 * ais523 wonders how many people think British Columbia is in the UK
18:57:37 <oerjan> (well someone had, and for a while after they left it staid there)
18:57:42 <Bike> "well it is in the commonwealth, right"
18:58:04 <olsner> it's somewhere around Colombia, right?
18:58:13 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
18:58:17 <oerjan> i don't know who put it there. i'm not quite sure if it was there already when i moved in.
18:58:22 <fizzie> ais523: Or in South America.
18:58:36 <fizzie> Oh, I missed olsner doing that alraedy.
18:58:41 <olsner> oerjan: british columbia was probably wherever it was before you moved in
18:58:48 <Bike> the colombia thing comes up too. i may have lived in the most ambiguously named part of the country
18:59:13 <Bike> vancouver (not BC), washington (not DC), on the columbia (not colombia, not british)
18:59:22 <fizzie> I like Wikipedia's Columbia disambiguation page. "Not to be confused with Colombia (disambiguation) or Colombia."
19:00:05 <Bike> i don't think i've ever actually been to BC. it seems like a nice enough place but i only know it from twin peaks and a HRW report
19:00:14 <olsner> there used to be a United States of Colombia too
19:00:38 <fizzie> olsner: And the prehistoric supercontinent of Columbia, I'm sure people confuse it with that a lot too.
19:00:43 <Bike> olsner: well mexico is the United States of Mexico but nobody seems to mind.
19:01:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:01:42 <Bike> people get way more antsy about "america" being used to refer to the US. which makes sense imo.
19:01:50 <fizzie> United States of Mexico and New Mexico of United States.
19:01:59 <Koen__> Taneb: could you explain to me again how Real Fast Nora'Hair programs are applied to their input? since input is text, but functions are lambda abstractions
19:02:35 <Taneb> Koen__, the input is first transformed into a stream of bits
19:03:20 <oerjan> stream of bytes, actually
19:03:59 <Taneb> Then, it transforms each byte into its church numeral representation
19:04:01 <fizzie> Don't forget the step of thanking oerjan, it's crucial.
19:04:16 <HackEgo> olist 924: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
19:04:22 <oerjan> well i _did_ make the interpreter, and steal Lazy K's IO model.
19:04:48 <Taneb> Then, convert = APPLY APPLY LAMBDA ZERO [next byte of input] [convert(remainder of input)]
19:05:44 <Taneb> In general, I think oerjan knows my two halfway decent languages better than I do
19:06:47 <ais523> my brain insisted on parsing "APPLY APPLY LAMBDA ZERO" as a Unicode character name
19:06:47 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
19:06:57 <fizzie> `unicode APPLY APPLY LAMBDA ZERO
19:08:05 <Taneb> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download, the language where EVERY program is a unicode character
19:08:07 <fizzie> `run unicode 'FUNCTION APPLICATION' 'FUNCTION APPLICATION' 'GREEK CAPITAL LETTER LAMDA' 'DIGIT ZERO' # close approximation
19:08:32 -!- Bike has joined.
19:08:33 <fizzie> Sadly, the function application cannot be seen.
19:08:33 <oerjan> hm wait Taneb had stolen the IO model already.
19:10:18 <Taneb> oerjan, when I was writing it, my mind was going "Hmm, what's a bit like this but with IO? I know! Lazy K!"
19:15:34 -!- muskrat has joined.
19:16:21 <oerjan> fizzie: hm actually in irssi i see the function application by missing the previous space.
19:17:29 <fizzie> oerjan: You see DEAD PEOPLE.
19:17:52 <fizzie> `unicode SHAVIAN LETTER DEAD
19:18:12 <oerjan> the dead look strangely square to me
19:18:13 <fizzie> `unicode BAMUM LETTER PHASE-E PA PEOPLE
19:18:25 <fizzie> HackEgo: That is so a real character, you charlatan.
19:18:47 <fizzie> Somebody ought to update UnicodeData in that thing.
19:19:46 <Taneb> `unicode MULTI-OCULAR O
19:19:50 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
19:20:16 <Bike> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
19:20:29 <Bike> as opposed to PHOENICIAN LETTER MULTIOCULAR O, probably
19:20:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/unicode
19:20:55 <FireFly> Oh, there's a python module for that? That's handy
19:21:27 <fizzie> The connection attempts to port 4679 (from a random Finnish DSL IP) continue on even though there's no Skypes open here any longer. I wonder what on earth is up with that. There's a new try every six seconds, always to the same destination port. For hours and hours. And there's no conntrack entries related to that IP.
19:22:22 <oerjan> someone's trying to get out a "HELP I'M TRAPPED IN A SKYPE FACTORY"
19:23:05 <olsner> maybe it's the ghost of fungot, trying to reunite with the bot of fungot
19:23:05 <fungot> olsner: and because the only common aspect of all those bp pics where i have to wear glasses manage to find them. but that wasn't right.
19:23:24 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about this?
19:23:24 <fungot> fizzie: what do you see how such artificial restrictions can help in learning. use what you want
19:23:30 * FireFly tries to imagine fungot with glasses
19:23:31 <fungot> FireFly: anyone know a fast algorithm in c ( in guile) to register funcs to be called
19:23:35 <fizzie> fungot: Stop being cryptic and answer the question.
19:23:35 <fungot> fizzie: " the replacement may contain the special character to refer to one symbol with two different formattings ( fnord that can be translated to
19:26:54 <shachaf> ais523: You were here when I `olisted. :-(
19:27:25 <ais523> shachaf: yeah but I wasn't reading
19:27:35 <fizzie> Welp, I dumped what it tries to say with netcat, and it seems it actually is just some worm propagation attempt.
19:27:46 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
19:27:48 <shachaf> ais523: Maybe we should add you to `olist so that you get notified, then?
19:27:57 <fizzie> A "GET /product.xml HTTP/1.0" request to port 4679.
19:27:59 <shachaf> Otherwise I get notified for no reason and it's annoying.
19:28:14 <ais523> because I don't /want/ to be notified
19:28:21 <ais523> you could just remove yourself from the list if you don't want to be notified
19:28:36 <shachaf> OK, so why are you `olisting yourself?
19:28:41 <shachaf> I want to get notified once per update.
19:28:42 <Bike> it's always more idiotic list etiquette
19:28:44 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/*list': No such file or directory
19:29:09 <fizzie> Someone's just going to revert that, it's not like it'd accomplish anything.
19:29:25 <fizzie> Then it's a HackEgo edit war all over again.
19:30:13 -!- shachaf has left.
19:30:33 <Bike> this channel has the most amazing drama
19:30:43 <fizzie> For some very strange values of "amazing".
19:30:47 <Phantom__Hoover> does shachaf just make a hobby of becoming pointlessly forceful about things
19:30:57 <ais523> fizzie: I think Bike's amazed that it's a drama
19:31:08 <Phantom__Hoover> the problem now is that i have deleted bin/list, and i like bin/list
19:31:21 <fizzie> ais523: Admittedly I'd've expected some sort of a comedy too.
19:31:31 <Bike> i'm very good at finding comedy in stupid shit don't worry
19:32:16 <ais523> I guess my problem with the lists is that their intended function seems to be to notify people to not update the lists
19:32:45 <fizzie> I don't think there's anything unclear with their intended function.
19:33:03 <fizzie> Whether they work well or not.
19:34:34 <fizzie> Also it sounds reasonably reasonable (as far as anything in the list universe can be reasonable) that the people paying any attention to them and the people invoking them would be the same set.
19:35:04 <ais523> fizzie: well in that case the lists would never be used
19:35:07 -!- Bike_ has joined.
19:35:15 <ais523> if you're relying on the lists to let you know when the comic's available
19:35:16 -!- Bike has quit (Disconnected by services).
19:35:21 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
19:35:25 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
19:35:27 <Phantom__Hoover> <ais523> I guess my problem with the lists is that their intended function seems to be to notify people to not update the lists
19:35:28 <ais523> you'd never check the comic to be able to announce the lists
19:35:45 <fizzie> ais523: People on the lists seem to be entirely capable of using them themselves.
19:35:48 <ais523> really, the set of people who benefit from the notification, and the set of people who /provide/ the notification, should be disjoint
19:36:07 <ais523> fizzie: more to the point, I noticed that the discussion thread was only on page 5
19:36:12 <Phantom__Hoover> my problem with the lists is that they are THE STUPIDEST THING EVER and yet a handful of people have latched onto them out of contrarianism or blissful naivete
19:36:16 <ais523> meaning that the comic was probably pretty new
19:36:29 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: what about `list? that was the stupidest thing ever /intentionally/
19:36:47 <Phantom__Hoover> <Phantom__Hoover> the problem now is that i have deleted bin/list, and i like bin/list
19:37:07 <fizzie> ais523: And they work just fine even if the sets are identical; then it's just a "you can do your semirandom poll of this comic right now" shortcut mechanism.
19:37:15 <Bike> i'd like to point out, as a neutral observer, that you are all terrible and stop stifling my ree speech
19:37:30 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: oh right, missed that first time
19:37:37 <fizzie> ais523: I mean, if you wanted efficiency out of it, you'd probably be using that RSS reader or whatnot.
19:37:50 <ais523> well in my case, I don't want to read it at work
19:38:01 <ais523> so I tend to check it whenever I'm bored and can read it
19:38:05 <ais523> as opposed to wanting to read it instantly
19:38:12 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, I find slist useful sometimes
19:38:28 <fizzie> It'd be quite simple just to opt out of the whole list mechanism then, instead of willfully adding multiplicate listings.
19:38:34 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
19:38:52 <ais523> fizzie: right, I thought I was being useful via adding listings, though
19:39:06 <fizzie> ais523: I think well-meaning people could disagree on that.
19:39:12 <fizzie> (On the third hand, it's all very stupid.)
19:40:08 <ais523> I guess my problem is that I don't see the circumstances under which the list would ever be listed
19:40:33 <Bike> i do not have an emoticon to show my current expression
19:41:58 <Bike> way ahead of you
19:42:07 <fizzie> ais523: I think that's because you think people either (a) poll/feed the comic with some other mechanism and do not look at listings, or (b) never poll the comic independently and only look at it when it gets listed, while the "in-practice" scenario is (c) that all/most people on the list poll the comic at semirandom intervals anyway, and the list just shortcuts that by notifying the involved people, and thereby shortens the mean lag between update and se
19:42:26 <fizzie> (Where's my splitlong.pl again?)
19:42:58 <fizzie> But I'm certainly no list expert, I'm not even on any; that's just the sort of feeling I've gotten from observing it.
19:44:00 <olsner> why are we even discussing lists?
19:45:13 <ais523> olsner: shachaf just ragequit the channel over them
19:46:41 <olsner> what's the list a list of again?
19:46:56 <Bike> people who have used `list
19:47:23 <olsner> hmm, that doesn't sound entirely useful
19:47:45 <oerjan> fizzie's (c) fits me, anyway :P
19:49:56 * oerjan wonders if ais523 is assuming people are predictable.
19:51:10 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
19:51:57 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:53:30 -!- shachaf has joined.
19:53:52 <shachaf> I didn't "ragequit" the channel.
19:54:09 <shachaf> I joined the channel in the first place to talk to kmc, and he wasn't here anyway.
19:54:56 <fizzie> I built rust and that's kmc's fault entirely.
19:54:57 <shachaf> Then I was mostly idling in the channel. But then people started mentioning my name without actually communicating anything to me. So I left.
19:55:03 <fizzie> (Still missing a project.)
19:55:38 <shachaf> For what it's worth, I only thought to check `olist after joining the channel. And I checked the logs before saying it, to make sure I wouldn't be double-notifying people.
19:56:30 <shachaf> Anyway, fizzie's (c) is correct.
19:57:05 -!- shachaf has left.
19:58:35 <fizzie> Sadly, I don't win anything.
19:59:13 <olsner> manual polling is so web 1.0, subscribe to the feed already
19:59:55 <oerjan> i once subscribed to the feed and it somehow broke horribly, reshowing me old comics all the time.
20:00:02 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover Phantom__Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
20:00:20 <oerjan> that was before the lists.
20:01:22 <nooodl> proudly not on the list
20:01:37 <FireFly> It seems like being on the list would be annoying
20:01:45 <Bike> it hurts my pride.
20:02:03 <FireFly> I'm curious how fungot and HackEgo came to be on the list
20:02:04 <fungot> FireFly: because 2.6 or even 2.4 is too large
20:02:16 <ais523> FireFly: people telling them to `echo or whatever
20:02:26 <FireFly> I thought the bots around here had blacklists for other bots
20:02:36 <fizzie> ais523: Also the listification mechanism had some bugs.
20:02:45 <fizzie> ais523: Picking "most-recent" and not "most-recent-lister".
20:02:57 <ais523> `list now checks the logs
20:02:58 <HackEgo> ais523 atriq Bike boily cuttlefish elliott fgrep Fiora fungot HackEgo metasepia mnoqy monqy Ngevd nortti oklopol Phantom_Hoover Phantom__Hoover pikhq quintopia Roujo Sgeo SgeoBot shikhin SUPREME_BUTT_SUI Taneb
20:03:14 <fizzie> Yes, but it checked them wrong. Some of those could be carryovers.
20:03:24 <ais523> no, I think it greps the logs every time
20:03:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ grep '^..:..:..: <[^>]*> `list' /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt | sed 's/^.*<//;s/>.*//;s/_*$//' | sort -u | tr '\n' ' '
20:03:51 <ais523> that fixes FireFly's issue, too; `list works even if HackEgo doesn't see the original `list
20:04:42 <ais523> and glogbot doesn't have an ignore list
20:05:02 <fizzie> It was a plain "tail -1" before that grep was added.
20:05:02 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
20:05:08 <fizzie> And the names weren't reset when it was, is my point.
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20:05:37 <olsner> hmm, so there is no way to get off the list once you're on it?
20:05:56 <fizzie> olsner: Just the obvious manual sed ways.
20:06:10 <fizzie> Though if you do it wrong, drama may ensue.
20:06:39 <olsner> you mean something like edit all your `lists out of the irclogs?
20:07:07 <ais523> I guess you could edit bin/list to contain an exception for you
20:07:28 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, *that's* what you meant by "every time", I'm just too slow.
20:08:11 <fizzie> I'd think that will eventually get too slow.
20:08:24 <fizzie> And there's that year limit.
20:08:31 <zzo38> The other way would be to modify it in the client-side
20:08:57 <zzo38> Which in some cases may be preferable (but not necessarily all cases)
20:08:58 <FireFly> That doesn't really remove you from the list
20:16:36 <fizzie> The port-4679 hammering still continues, even though I accepted one connection to slurp out what it was trying to say.
20:16:39 <fizzie> If it really is some sort of a worm propagation attempt, it seems ridiculously ineffective.
20:18:55 <fizzie> 4679 *is* listed as "MGE UPS Supervision" service, and there's some references to "http://connectups-1713ae.domain.com:4679/product.xml" in the webs re UPS management, so it sounds like a reasonable assumption it's trying to find vulnerable UPSes.
20:19:06 <fizzie> But it keeps trying this same IP over and over again.
20:19:28 <fizzie> Maybe someone has typed an IP address wrong somewhere.
20:27:41 <fizzie> Tried to connect to source:80 in case it's someone I could contact, but a GET / got a "HTTP/1.0 501 Not Implemented" and a malformed request got some incomprehensible jumble of bytes.
20:28:47 <fizzie> Not seeing any particular patterns in the returned bytes.
20:30:19 <olsner> weird combination of things to send though... a well-formed HTTP response in some cases and random binary data in other cases
20:30:55 <fizzie> I think the HTTP response is just to discourage HTTP clients, since whatever it is for reals, it *is* in port 80.
20:31:08 <fizzie> And the random binary data would be for the actual functionality, which I'm less sure of.
20:31:20 <olsner> maybe the binary data is just gzipped or something
20:31:36 <fizzie> It doesn't have any headers according to 'file', so it's not a gzip stream.
20:31:47 <fizzie> Perhaps it wouldn't notice a raw DEFLATE stream, though.
20:31:54 <fizzie> I guess I could check that out.
20:32:07 <fizzie> When it comes to general portscans, I sometimes wonder if I should email the abuse@ address in the WHOIS, but this is so bizarre.
20:32:17 <fizzie> (Then again, at the ISP they'd at least know which customer it is.)
20:34:00 <olsner> I wonder if wireshark is good at autodetecting protocols
20:36:17 <fizzie> It just said "Continuation or non-HTTP traffic" about it.
20:36:33 <olsner> I guess it assumes HTTP due to being on port 80
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20:36:53 <fizzie> Guess so; the overall label is HTTP, and I don't know how to tell it to ignore that and re-autodetect.
20:38:03 <fizzie> There's a "decode as", but that's no help.
20:38:22 <fizzie> I can apparently disable the HTTP decoder.
20:38:45 <fizzie> In which case it's just "TCP".
20:38:58 <olsner> isn't "decode as" the one that lets you select which protocol decoder(s) to use?
20:39:21 <fizzie> Well, no, it lets you select a decoder, as far as I could tell. Maybe I didn't look at it too closely.
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20:39:46 <fizzie> Anyway, disabling HTTP just got plain TCP, so I'd guess it doesn't autodetect anything sensible out of it.
20:42:55 <fizzie> More news: the source has port 4679 open too, and replies to a GET /protocol.xml HTTP/1.0 (the thing it sends out) with a |
20:43:01 <fizzie> HTTP/1.0 404 Not Found.
20:43:13 <fizzie> "Error 404 - File read error"
20:43:33 <ais523> fizzie: any idea why people keep on asking my web server for pages on other sites?
20:43:46 <ais523> some sort of attempt to exploit a vulnerability?
20:45:01 <olsner> sounds like trying to use you as a proxy
20:45:31 <fizzie> ais523: Most likely guess, yes.
20:45:31 <fizzie> Ooh, GET / on port 4679 gives a long web page built entirely out of <!-- Fix IE8+ compatibilities issues --> and <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="emc2.css"> and lots of javascript.
20:45:31 <fizzie> I guess that should be enough to identify the device.
20:45:31 <fizzie> (Also the /product.xml request it was trying to *send* has an User-Agent of Emc2.)
20:45:33 <ais523> my serve responds by ignoring the domain and trying to find a page at the same path
20:46:00 <fizzie> I'd need some sort of a throwaway VM to look at this thing in a browser, and I don't have one set up. :/
20:47:01 <olsner> EMC could refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMC_Corporation
20:47:26 <fizzie> If I send it the exact same request it's trying to send to me (also for /product.xml but with proper User-Agent and so on) it replies back with <PRODUCT_INFO name="Intelligent Power Manager" type="Windows NT/6.01.01" version="1.28.087" protocol="XML.V4">.
20:48:16 <fizzie> "Intelligent Power® Manager Software - Eaton’s Intelligent Power Manager software enables you to --"
20:48:36 <fizzie> I guess that's what it is, and it's trying to connect to an UPS.
20:48:53 <fizzie> Or some other sort of a power-related sensor.
20:49:23 <fizzie> Maybe I *should* in fact email abuse@ then; they could email the customer in question.
20:49:32 <fizzie> Though it's a regular home dialup, as far as I can tell.
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20:52:43 <fizzie> I'm sure they don't have anything better to do.
20:54:57 <Taneb> My god this anime is hilarious
20:58:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I actually have been laughing at it
20:58:55 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:59:00 <mnoqy> in a good way or a bad way
20:59:02 <Taneb> It's about a dark lord who finds himself in Tokyo without his magic powers
20:59:15 <Taneb> He winds up working at McDonalds to make ends meet
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21:00:26 <Taneb> It's laughing with it
21:00:39 <Taneb> I just said at because I never really liked the phrase "laughing with it"
21:04:37 -!- shikhin has joined.
21:04:39 <fizzie> I don't normally monitor incoming-but-dropped connections at all closely; it's kind of a funny coincidence that the one time I do, I get a nice puzzle like the current one.
21:05:18 <mnoqy> maybe they're actually all like that
21:06:13 <fizzie> Well, I did it also during the day at work, and nothing seemed to be happening, except for some showers of SSH port knocking and a few Microsoft SQL server connection attempts. Certainly nothing sustained like this.
21:07:32 <fizzie> (Those are still going on, interspersed with the UPS guy.)
21:08:53 <fizzie> MSSQL from "CHINANET jiangsu province network", telnet probes from Turkey, Lithuania, Slovakia; that's all very boring.
21:09:50 <fizzie> Hey, the UPS guy stopped.
21:10:18 <fizzie> Wonder if the abuse@ email had something to do with it.
21:11:57 -!- augur has joined.
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21:13:48 <fizzie> (Also a quick poke backwards didn't seem to reach the source at all. Hope they didn't *disconnect* him/her/it; that seems a bit drastic.)
21:14:38 <fizzie> Networks: they so funny.
21:17:06 -!- ais523 has quit.
21:21:19 <fizzie> I guess the abuse folks might have a "disconnect first, ask questions later" policy. Or else the timing was just coincidental. (The connection attempts stopped about five minutes after sending the email.)
21:23:26 <fizzie> Or possibly even a "disconnect first [based on email subject line], read complaints later" policy.
21:27:20 <zzo38> In Dungeons&Dragons game, I have to do some prepare (including to ask things of the kingdom) before continuing on the next quest. I have some ideas; tell me if you think I missed something? * Ask for a spare space on a shelf to store my books and stuff I don't need to carry to there * Request a boat or boat ticket * Summon a familiar * Study the Calimsham some more * Find religious ties in Church of Gxxyuxihuvxi in both cities * Try to
21:27:39 <zzo38> Did this message get cut off? There should be seven asterisks.
21:29:07 <zzo38> * Try to ask father's friend if he is a speaker in dreams * Get the Calimsham advisor and others who may need to come
21:29:11 <zzo38> There, I fixed it.
21:29:59 <zzo38> What things did I miss?
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21:44:34 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y, $z) = ("inf", +"inf", 0+"inf"); $x++; $y++; $z++; print "$x $y $z";' # nasty?
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21:50:19 <zzo38> fizzie: I think that is understandable to me. Why are you using this now?
21:51:04 <fizzie> I'm not, I just saw it on the Perl channel.
21:51:41 <fizzie> And it's understandable, but arguably a bit inelegant, because Perl in general likes to pretend there's no difference between a scalar that's a number and a scalar that's a string.
21:51:59 <FireFly> it's the middle one that annoys me
21:52:08 <zzo38> It doesn't looks too much inelegant to me, although I am not a Perl programmer so I wouldn't know so much
21:52:19 <FireFly> I'd expect +"inf" to force the number-y behaviour
21:52:21 <zzo38> It seems fine to me, although I can understand why you might not like the middle one.
21:52:40 <fizzie> FireFly: That's what I sort of expected too, coming from JavaScript.
21:52:45 <zzo38> In case you want unary + to make it numeric.
21:53:32 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y) = (+"inf", -"inf"); $x++; $y++; print "$x $y";' # and unary - does, of course.
21:54:52 <zzo38> Probably it would make sense if unary + to make it numeric, since it can be meaning something then.
22:00:43 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:04:32 <zzo38> It doesn't really annoy me so much that unary + doesn't do that though.
22:05:23 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y) = ('inf', 'inf'); $z = $y + 0; $x++; $y++; $z++; print "$x $y $z";' # then there's this
22:05:28 <fizzie> Performing the calculation $y + 0 goes and turns $y into "more numeric" even when the result is assigned to something else.
22:05:31 <fizzie> `run perl -e '($x, $y) = (0+'inf', 0+'inf'); $z = $y . ""; $x++; $y++; $z++; print "$x $y $z";' # but not the other way around
22:06:12 <fizzie> Doing $y . "" does not alter the "numericalness" of $y, even though the result in $z is "less numeric".
22:07:29 <zzo38> That "$z = $y + 0" causing such things looks like strange, although I think that many things in Perl are looking like strange.
22:07:49 <fizzie> If you like to be nasty about it, you could even say that $y + 0 has an (observable) side effect that modifies $y.
22:08:23 <fizzie> Admittedly the interchangeability of numbers and strings means it usually doesn't matter.
22:09:14 <zzo38> And that it works only one way and not the other way around, just seems like silly, however (although maybe there is a proper reason for it).
22:09:36 -!- Bike has joined.
22:09:58 <fizzie> I believe (I'm not much of a Perl programmer either) the reason has uncomfortably much to do with the internals of Perl scalars.
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23:05:23 <zzo38> I do program in AWK, though, and I think there are some similiary to Perl.
23:06:03 <olsner> IINM, perl is supposed to have been based on awk
23:10:05 <zzo38> But there are two features I would like to see added into AWK: One is a command to tell the program to receive a line of input (so it matches against all patterns in the program just as if it is from the normal input), and the other is a \ operator to read matched parts of a regular expression used as a boolean and was true.
23:11:03 <zzo38> In the second case an example might be: /^[^0-9]*([0-9])*/{print \1}
23:13:41 <zzo38> In this case it would just output the first digit available in each line of input, if they have any digits.
23:17:15 -!- Bike has joined.
23:17:23 <fizzie> I've wanted the latter feature too. (Generally ended up writing in Perl instead then.)
23:20:10 <fizzie> perl -ane and perl -ape are somewhat close to awk in that they do an automatic loop and split, though patterns still need to be written as ifs.
23:20:35 <fizzie> (Easy to do both those features then, though.)
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23:46:25 <zzo38> I still like AWK though, and think adding two such features like I describe may improve it.
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23:51:03 <kmc> -- Larry Wall, 1987
23:52:36 <zzo38> My other opinion of AWK is that a few features of GNU AWK (such as gettext) should be moved to external plugins instead.
23:53:16 <zzo38> kmc: What about Larry Wall, 1987?
23:53:25 <kmc> what about him indeed
23:54:10 <zzo38> I don't know, that's why I asked.
23:54:42 <Bike> the idea is that larry wall said "I still like AWK though, and think [..]", in 1987
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23:56:39 <Bike> the contnuation of this idea is that it lead to perl
23:58:07 <kmc> the idea is that adding features to Awk is a slippery slope to Perl
23:59:39 <zzo38> It may have done, but there should be a better way.