00:01:37 <kmc> i'll be around then probably
00:01:40 <kmc> don't know if I'll stay for the talk
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00:44:28 <kmc> perhaps shaped charges will fix my makefile
00:45:55 <Sgeo> Fine, I'll type it out
00:46:24 <Sgeo> "This whole subject of writing seemingly referentially opaque macros with syntax rules has been /actually/ inspired by a practical application."
00:52:48 <Sgeo> I had a memory leak in a script I wrote a while back
00:52:53 <Sgeo> Had to use the script today
00:52:57 <Sgeo> It ate around 13GB
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01:11:19 <kmc> why does it leak memory
01:14:49 <kmc> drlemon: http://web.archive.org/web/20130917111816/http://fmota.eu/blog/base64-fixed-point.html
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01:33:02 <Sgeo> kmc: I forgot to destroy the prepared statements, which I made in a loop
01:33:34 <Sgeo> Mutable entities in Tcl don't get garbage collected
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01:36:01 <kmc> is that because the "references" between them are strings and therefore impossible to trace?
01:36:22 <Sgeo> Pretty much, yes
01:36:30 <kmc> i shuold learn Tcl
01:37:31 <kmc> Sgeo, what do you think of Rust's macro system? http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-macros.html
01:39:44 <Sgeo> Is pattern-matching the only form of macros available (not done reading yet)
01:42:27 <kmc> it's the only kind which doesn't involve editing the compiler
01:43:03 <kmc> syntactically when you see foo!(bar) it could be invoking a user-defined macro or a compiler-defined syntax extension
01:43:20 <Sgeo> But bar can be anything?
01:43:35 <Sgeo> Can it be arbitrary strings, or is there some form in which it needs to be in to be parsable?
01:44:01 <kmc> I think for macros it can be any sequence of valid Rust tokens, where () [] {} are properly nested and balanced
01:44:27 <kmc> Rust programs are parsed to a "token tree" before a full AST, and that's where macro expansion happens
01:45:09 <kmc> the token tree expresses the nesting structure of () [] {} and contains other tokens as leaves
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01:45:51 <kmc> in fact I think that secretly you can have a macro syntax variable $x:tt to take an arbitrary token tree, rather than the documented e.g. $x:expr which will parse that part of the tree as an expr before expanding the macro
01:46:06 <kmc> not sure tho
01:46:59 <kmc> "As a final, horrifying aside, note that macro-by-example's input is also matched by one of these matchers. Holy self-referential!"
01:47:44 <kmc> i don't have the context to know what that comment means, just pasting for amusement
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02:02:47 <drlemon> Would it be possible to add Fugue or Velato notes over a normal audio file at inaudable frequencies?
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02:57:33 <shachaf> Sgeo: do we delete lists after they're finished
02:57:43 <kmc> Sgeo: here's the macro I wrote today: https://github.com/kmcallister/servo/blob/8bd9be7240faf751b7d23e3d9a65a3db8adf3496/src/components/main/macros.rs#L14-L24
02:58:47 <kmc> it turns «spawn_with!(task(), [foo, bar], { ...blah blah... })» into «do task().spawn_with((foo,bar)) |(foo,bar)| { ...blah blah... }»
02:59:16 <kmc> which is itself sugar for «task().spawn_with((foo,bar), |(foo,bar)| { ...blah blah... })»
02:59:28 <kmc> the second argument to spawn_with is a lambda expression taking a tuple as an argument
02:59:44 <kmc> as for why we need to explicitly name (some of) the captured variables, there's a good-ish reason for that, which I can explain later
02:59:47 <kmc> but -> afk now
03:00:45 <Sgeo> shachaf: lists in Tcl are immutable strings, which are GCed
03:01:29 <kmc> `echo bin/*list
03:01:39 <kmc> `run echo bin/*list
03:01:41 <HackEgo> bin/danddreclist bin/emptylist bin/erflist bin/instalist bin/list bin/llist bin/makelist bin/mlist bin/olist bin/oohlist bin/pbflist bin/slist bin/smlist bin/testlist
03:03:04 <Bike> `run echo 'rm bin/slist' >> bin/slist # There.
03:04:32 <Bike> oh, that won't work.
03:04:53 <drlemon> shachaf: It works on #xkcd
03:05:02 <drlemon> That's where i usually lurk
03:05:18 <drlemon> or the ++ thing has bot responses
03:05:43 <drlemon> one could say it is... *puts on sunglasses*... BOTOMATED
03:06:51 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/exit/rm bin\/slist/; exit' bin/slist
03:06:56 <HackEgo> sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found \ sh: xit: not found
03:07:04 <Bike> i've learned a frightening amount about sed from this channel.
03:07:22 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/exit/rm bin\/slist; exit/' bin/slist
03:07:45 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; ez ova/fyvfg \ Gnaro \ ngevd \ Atriq \ Svben \ abeggv \ Ftrb \ GungBgureCrefba \ nybg
03:07:48 <elliott> it doesn't look like slist is actually over, just it only has one more run left
03:08:02 <Bike> So now slist is set up to delete itself after that one more run.
03:08:04 <shachaf> Wait, "run" means more than one update?
03:08:08 <Bike> All nice and tidy and completely reasonable.
03:08:32 <Bike> no it was fine!
03:08:41 <Bike> elliott you're ruining the whole system with your propaganda.
03:09:12 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/exit/rm bin\/slist\; exit/' bin/slist
03:09:19 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; ez ova/fyvfg; rkvg \ Gnaro \ ngevd \ Atriq \ Svben \ abeggv \ Ftrb \ GungBgureCrefba \ nybg
03:09:32 <Bike> huh, what's ; do in sed
03:09:48 <Bike> how come it didn't tell you about an unterminated / then?
03:09:54 <shachaf> Because you don't need a final /
03:10:05 <shachaf> `run echo abc | sed 's/b/q'
03:10:07 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 5: unterminated `s' command
03:10:24 <shachaf> `run echo abc | sed 's/b/q; exit'
03:10:26 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 11: unterminated `s' command
03:10:28 <shachaf> `run echo abc | sed 's/b/q; exit/'
03:10:33 <Bike> well, i guess ; terminates it.
03:10:43 <Bike> btw it's great how basically every confusing thing about shell is due to mixing up strings and arguments and stuff
03:10:59 <shachaf> `run sed 's/exit/rm bin\/slist\; exit/' bin/slist | head -n1
03:11:01 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; rm bin/slist; rm bin/slist; exit
03:14:09 <shachaf> OK, where did the exit go?
03:14:47 <shachaf> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/fd7b8d987a01
03:15:53 <Bike> what if we just execute taneb
03:17:20 <Bike> `run sed 's/slist/slist\; exit/' bin/slist | head -n1
03:17:22 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; rm bin/slist; exit; exit
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03:17:51 <Bike> oh well i guess it's finenow.
03:18:26 <shachaf> why am i even aware of this slist thing
03:20:50 <Bike> `pastelogs bike
03:21:25 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.10413
03:22:14 <Bike> `pastequotes bike
03:22:20 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.16742
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05:41:43 <Sgeo> 447 and dead bodies, two great tastes that taste great together
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06:19:51 <Sgeo> `slist News: Gigapause
06:19:56 <HackEgo> slist News: Gigapause: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora nortti Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
06:20:29 <Sgeo> It's of relevance to Homestuck readers
06:20:37 <Bike> `cat bin/slist
06:20:39 <HackEgo> cat: bin/slist: No such file or directory
06:20:43 <Bike> you don't understand.
06:21:52 <Bike> `cat bin/slist
06:21:53 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; rm bin/slist; exit \ Taneb \ atriq \ Ngevd \ Fiora \ nortti \ Sgeo \ ThatOtherPerson \ alot
06:22:02 <Bike> one more update, sgeo!!
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06:47:20 <Bike> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renshaw_cell
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07:49:50 <Taneb> ...I've been reading Homestuck for over 4 years
07:50:05 <Taneb> I've been reading Homestuck for over 20% of my life
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08:10:45 <kmc> helloerjan
08:19:44 <kmc> how's it going
08:21:44 <Taneb> You know everything goes wrong when I try to update anything?
08:22:04 <Taneb> Please be on standby
08:22:35 <oerjan> that's why i never update hth
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08:54:31 <oerjan> <kmc> drlemon: http://web.archive.org/web/20130917111816/http://fmota.eu/blog/base64-fixed-point.html <-- not the most archiveable page :(
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08:56:09 <fizzie> The math seems to have a broken.
08:56:09 <oerjan> i think Taneb may have updated himself permanently off our channel
08:56:22 <oerjan> and the comments section isn't too good either :P
08:57:56 <oerjan> oklofok: btw i think this may mean base64 has an associated minimal shift system.
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08:59:21 <fizzie> oerjan: Aren't you supposed to continue a start like that with some sort of a "your mom" joke?
08:59:36 <oerjan> it's _almost_ a substitution shift system, like thue-morse
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10:01:53 <Taneb> The other night for some reason I was at a Project Euler night
10:02:18 <Taneb> (where people get together and do Project Euler problem
10:02:19 <fizzie> Didn't know that was a thing.
10:03:32 <Taneb> Anyway, someone was trying to do the first problem, really struggling with it
10:03:39 <Taneb> He had about 30 lines of C++
10:04:10 <fizzie> Oh, it's that three-and-five thing. I've seen that in many places.
10:04:29 <FireFly> Is the first one the one that's basically fizzbuzz?
10:04:44 <fizzie> Sum of all multiples of 3 or 5 below 1000.
10:04:49 <Taneb> We looked at him, and said "How?"
10:04:58 <Taneb> The person to the right of me had 8 lines of C++
10:05:03 <Taneb> I had 1 line of Haskell
10:05:11 <FireFly> I think I solved that in J
10:10:24 <oerjan> > intercalate", "[case gcd x 15 of 3->"Fizz";5->"Buzz";15->"Fizzbuzz";_->show x|x<-[1..]]
10:10:26 <lambdabot> "1, 2, Fizz, 4, Buzz, Fizz, 7, 8, Fizz, Buzz, 11, Fizz, 13, 14, Fizzbuzz, 1...
10:12:40 <oerjan> well i don't know J anyway.
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10:16:54 <FireFly> +/ (* 0: = (3&| * 5&|)) i.1000
10:17:00 <FireFly> there's probably prettier ways to do it though..
10:17:37 <FireFly> Oh, those inner parens aren't necessary I think
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12:37:28 <boily> good taneb-has-identity-troubles morning!
12:56:39 <Koen_> hmpf, I wanted to write the ackermann function in When
12:56:51 <Koen_> well this language is harder to use than I thought
12:57:29 <Koen_> (also there's no reference interpreter that I know of so I'm not even sure it should work the way I believe)
12:58:34 <Koen_> for instance, a rule is triggered everytime a variable in its predicate is assigned
12:59:04 <Koen_> but the variable value may have changed before the predicate is evaluated
13:01:02 <Koen_> and the when operator is the only way to do branching; if you want to branch depending on the value of two variables, then the rule will be triggered twice...
13:07:45 <Koen_> I guess I should add some flag variable that basically says "don't compute anything until I confirm you can proceed"
13:10:18 <boily> queues are fun, when you have undergrad students implement them.
13:11:26 * Koen_ imagines boily queuing up students holding numbers
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13:13:43 <boily> Koen_: sadly, I didn't get to TA that class. would have been fun *evil smirk*
13:16:31 <Koen_> what if electronics stopped working and we had to go back to people computing stuff by hand
13:16:50 <Koen_> so you'd ask people to hold the numbers to execute your fueue program
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13:17:31 <boily> that sounds like a very compelling argument to have a live #esoteric meet-up, with group activities, drinks, and computations!
13:19:13 <boily> Taneb: tell me more about yourselves. did you have a good relationship with your mother? how do you feel at the sight of mittens? if a scientist in a labcoat orders you to teach VB to an unsuspecting victim, will you comply?
13:21:12 <Taneb> I had a reasonable relationship of my mother
13:21:34 <Taneb> Mittens remind me of a cute pair I had when I was little that had like an elastic cord from one to the other so I wouldn't lose one
13:21:39 <Taneb> Which is actually a really good idea
13:22:39 <Taneb> If a scientist in a labcoat orders me to teach VB to an unsuspecting victim, I'd probably panic
13:23:37 * boily acquiesces and takes notes “hmm... hmm... please carry on...”
13:24:59 <Taneb> You see, I have a long-held fear of someone pointing out that I'm wrong about something I am supposed to have authority about
13:25:36 <Taneb> So if someone orders me to teach a topic to an unsuspecting victim who may know anything about that topic already, I will be terrified
13:25:47 <Koen_> your Fueue truth-machine was wrong
13:26:20 <Taneb> Koen_, almost every Fueue program I have written is untested
13:26:25 <Koen_> though I guess it's okay to be wrong when oerjan is in the room
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13:29:39 <boily> Koen_: but he's not there. who's the next oerjan-in-command?
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13:31:15 <Koen_> we could appoint Fiora
13:31:43 <Taneb> Fiora, you are now promoted to acting oerjan. Congratulations!
13:32:41 <Koen_> also he usually logbackread/readlogsback/whatever so if you misbehave in his name, HE'LL KNOW
13:33:59 <Fiora> what does that mean O_O
13:36:26 <boily> fungot: what does it mean, to be oerjan?
13:36:26 <fungot> boily: don't you get it working
13:36:37 <boily> fungot: no I didn't, that's why I'm asking.
13:36:37 <fungot> boily: i'm not really " ick" from a syntactic environment
13:37:13 <boily> Fiora: okay, so... I guess you can start by not being “ick”, from a syntactic environment.
13:37:55 <Taneb> fungot, I believe in you, can you tell us the answer?
13:37:55 <fungot> Taneb: fnord... fnord whether that reflects your opinion in that debate well enough? :) i'm learning scheme and now
13:38:09 <Taneb> Fiora, learn scheme and now
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13:39:53 <boily> Fiora: a single-celled parasite, a church, a train-coach, a human protein or English slang.
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15:17:39 <FireFly> fungot: you seem rather "ick" to me...
15:17:39 <fungot> FireFly: last time i had a hard time
15:17:46 <fungot> FireFly: the page doesn't appear here at all, should it end up?! :) http://list.cs.brown.edu/ pipermail/ gambit-list/ 2005-may/ fnord
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15:31:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
15:31:51 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.17624
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16:20:00 <fizzie> Also an INTERCAL kompiler, of course.
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16:40:42 <Jafet> INTERCAL compiler kludge
16:49:44 <boily> it's freezing in here. as a developer, I can't be expected to have good blood circulation!
16:51:56 <Jafet> I hear coffee can be used as an anticoagulant.
16:52:16 <olsner> boily: but maybe you can be expected to adapt your clothing after temperature?
16:52:48 <olsner> ideally houses should take care of that, but sadly houses are frequently imperfect
16:53:55 <Jafet> Netburst jokes aren't as hot as they used to be.
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16:55:51 <boily> olsner: I'm at work, and forgot my hoodie at home.
16:57:03 <olsner> boily: you should be fired for such a basic lapse in competence
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16:58:00 <boily> olsner: I'd like being fired. that'd raise my body temperature enough that I can still feel my fingertips, and get to code.
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16:59:25 <olsner> hmm, I guess that backfired
16:59:51 <Taneb> boily, huddle for warmth with your fellow programmers
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17:00:53 <boily> my fellow programmer went for lunch. the next fellogrammer is too far away (about 2.5 m West)
17:01:21 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `nest' (imported from Text.PrettyPr...
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17:01:31 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `nest' (imported from Text.PrettyP...
17:01:35 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable
17:01:36 <olsner> boily: why didn't you go for lunch?
17:01:54 <boily> olsner: I got done with lunch about half an hour ago.
17:02:15 <boily> (delicious curry chicken and eggplant ratatouille over rice)
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17:02:37 <Taneb> Ooh, I should start thinking about dinner
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17:03:29 <olsner> boily: aha! you *are* the man eating chicken
17:05:36 <boily> something something stupid chicken quote something something...
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17:06:48 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, this has to be a record for shortest-lived succession fort
17:09:39 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover, in other news, me and one of my friends may have started a University of York Homestuck society
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17:10:35 <boily> Taneb: did you just use “elliott,” as a punctuation symbol?
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17:12:31 <Taneb> boily, it served two purposes
17:12:35 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover, yes, and yes
17:12:47 <Taneb> We've got a meet-up on the 30th at 19:30
17:13:07 <Taneb> We don't even have a name yet
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17:37:26 <Taneb> Figure out a way to transfer it
17:38:02 <Taneb> But I kind of want to eat and watch Agents of Shield
17:38:35 <Phantom___Hoover> you can mute the dialogue of agents of shield, that way you can listen to DF's soundtrack rather than whedon's dialogue
17:38:56 <Taneb> But I watch Agents of Shield in the common room!
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17:39:16 <Taneb> And I'm not moving my desktop a mile and a half just to play video games while I watch TV
17:40:20 <Taneb> I'm slightly off-campus
17:40:40 <Taneb> York's accommodation was over-subscribed
17:41:04 <oerjan> <FireFly> +/ (* 0: = (3&| * 5&|)) i.1000 <-- i sense a lack of fizz and buzz.
17:41:06 <Phantom___Hoover> same thing happened at warwick, apparently they changed the clearing rules for this year
17:41:20 <Taneb> But as it happens the halls are laid out in a really stupid way anyway
17:41:38 <FireFly> oerjan: that gives the sum of numbers in [0,1000) divisible by 3 och 5 (project euler task 1)
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17:43:58 <oerjan> > sum [n|n<-[0..1000],gcd n 15>1]
17:44:02 <boily> isn't och supposed to be “and”, not “or”?
17:44:14 <oerjan> boily: i was trying not to mention that.
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17:45:52 <Phantom___Hoover> @tell Taneb here's your save http://www.filedropper.com/showdownload.php/region3
17:46:26 <oerjan> i had a vague sense that the distinction is slightly different than in english, so that it's not _entirely_ wrong to use och. although not wise in math.
17:46:47 <oerjan> also that maybe it's not clear in english either, outside math.
17:47:24 <oerjan> it's basically about how much of the phrase and/or/och/eller distribute over
17:50:57 <boily> and/or/och/eller/pis/oubedon
17:51:56 <boily> horrible, terrible, vernacular Québec French.
17:52:40 <oerjan> i guess i recognized the "ou" part.
17:53:12 <boily> «oubedon» is «ou bien donc» mashed, mangled, corrupted and otherwise blended with a lawnmower.
17:53:49 <oerjan> well that's no worse than what happened when french got made in the first place.
17:55:09 <oerjan> i recall reading some claim that if you ignore the writing system, french is a highly agglutinative language. although i also recall disagreement with that.
17:55:43 <oerjan> like, "je" is basically a subject prefix.
17:56:15 <Bike> i would have thought somebody would have noticed romance grammar being agglutinative
17:56:46 <oerjan> well it was french only, not the other ones.
17:57:11 <oerjan> i mean italian still frequently _drops_ the equivalent word to je (io)
17:57:27 <oerjan> and i think spanish is the same
17:57:56 <oerjan> but french has mushed its original suffixes so much that it needs to keep the pronouns.
17:58:52 <oerjan> especially when pronounced.
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18:05:43 <oerjan> although e.g. german keeps the pronouns even if it has most of the suffixes left to do without them.
18:07:33 -!- Bike has joined.
18:08:24 <oerjan> <Fiora> what's an "ick"? <-- the C-INTERCAL compiler iirc
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18:09:31 * oerjan keeps wondering if Uguubee111117 is Kjugobe's evil twin.
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18:14:09 <oerjan> <boily> (delicious curry chicken and eggplant ratatouille over rice) <-- wait i thought quebec didn't have proper french cuisine.
18:14:29 <oerjan> i guess that's not very french, mind.
18:14:36 <oerjan> except the ratatouille.
18:19:43 <boily> French is I think the only romance language that retains extensive pronoun usage.
18:20:11 <boily> and I'm a man eating chicken of the World.
18:21:12 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser.
18:21:13 <boily> with written French, you *could* drop pronouns and maybe lose a little bit of information, but it's impossible with spoken French.
18:22:13 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/ser./ser, and a Man Eating Chicken./' wisdom/boily
18:22:27 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
18:27:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:28:02 <oerjan> the old topic was starting to smell.
18:28:57 -!- boily has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic with perfume | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:29:07 <boily> oerjan: there. much better, eh?
18:29:34 <oerjan> that doesn't _reduce_ smell, boily.
18:30:07 <oerjan> think of the allergic.
18:31:19 -!- boily has set topic: The how-to guide to changing the topic with environmentally friendly hypoallergenic perfume | PDF yourself: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:31:51 <boily> and then you're going to point out that perfume is a known carcinogen or something like that, aren't you?
18:32:25 <oerjan> nah the fetal matter in it actually prevents cancer.
18:33:42 <kmc> how about hyperallergenic perfume
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18:58:22 <Phantom___Hoover> 18:31:51: <boily> and then you're going to point out that perfume is a known carcinogen or something like that, aren't you?
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19:18:57 <boily> people always complain about patchouli, but I think I never smelled it.
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19:51:57 <kmc> fizzie: there's now a #rust-osdev (on irc.mozilla.org) and https://github.com/mozilla/rust/wiki/Operating-system-development
19:52:07 <kmc> i'm sure they'd like to chat about Rust on Xen
19:52:30 <boily> have the rust-osdev people met the nodejs-osdev ones?
19:54:00 <kmc> boily: I... didn't know there was such a group
19:54:38 <boily> kmc: I'm just naming it like that. there was that recent article about that Visionary Guy who Never Wrote Oses and would very much like write one with Nodejs.
19:55:43 <Bike> can anyone explain electricity to me. i'm dyin here
19:56:11 <boily> Bike: electron movement.
19:56:24 <kmc> am I an absurd person for writing things like "$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")")/foo"
19:56:34 <kmc> is there A Better Way for a shell script to refer to another file in the same directory as the script?
19:56:41 <boily> Bike: including stuff that makes electrons move, but I can't explain that part because it makes my head hurt.
19:56:55 <Bike> well yeah but like how come voltage is a difference in potential and then in circuits you talk about "voltage at a point".
19:57:29 <boily> voltage at a point is an abuse of language. the reference in that case is implicit, and is the ground.
19:58:18 <Bike> it's a really confusing abuse of language ;_;
19:58:31 <kmc> myname: my working directory might not be the directory where the script lives
19:58:34 <boily> I know. took me ages to understand that one, and I'm a certified engineer.
19:58:49 <Bike> that helps though. probably.
20:00:03 <boily> for example, take a simple circuit with an AA battery and a light. the + pole is said to be “at 1.5 V [relatively to the ground]”.
20:00:28 <boily> because relating potential difference to the ground is the most common case, it gets thrown out because it is generally understood.
20:00:58 <Bike> so that means that moving a a coulomb's worth of electrons from ground to that pole would take 1.5 J, right?
20:01:34 <boily> yup. it's the difference that is measurable, therefore we use volts.
20:01:56 <boily> we don't know the starting point, we don't know the end point, but we know the difference between them is 1.5 J/C.
20:02:42 <boily> and the battery, through chemical work, is able to add that amount of energy per «paquet d'électrons».
20:02:55 <boily> thus, electromotive force.
20:02:58 <Bike> right, right, i've seen everything saying that about difference, and that's all well and good, and then they kind of ignore it.
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20:04:00 <boily> it's even more confusing when, say, you have your nice DC circuit going on, and then you decide to plug it into the mains with a diode bridge.
20:04:15 <Bike> those are words you have arranged into a sentence.
20:04:44 <boily> would you like it to be translated in French? I can garantee it's going to make as much sense.
20:05:11 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode_bridge
20:08:24 <boily> if you're running Linux, you should try ktechlab.
20:09:04 <boily> hm. probably not. seems to be pretty much dead, and running on qt3.
20:09:23 <boily> I wonder if there are any easy-to-use electronics simulators out there...
20:09:33 * kmc solves the problem a different way
20:12:42 <oerjan> boily: btw iirc the fact that you cannot determine more than differences in potential gives rise through noether's theorem to the conservation of charge.
20:14:17 <oerjan> basically, adding any constant to all potentials is a symmetry.
20:14:39 <oerjan> well, element of a symmetry group.
20:15:03 <boily> now you're losing me. maths and me makes 3.
20:16:57 <boily> Bike: http://123d.circuits.io/ ← looks interesting.
20:17:04 <Bike> i'm already too demoralized
20:17:47 <oerjan> noether's theorem is a wonderful theorem in physics that says that global symmetries imply conserved physical quantities.
20:18:11 <oerjan> the fact you can only measure _position_ relatively, for example, gives the conservation of momentum.
20:18:24 <oerjan> and in a sense, time gives energy.
20:19:19 <oerjan> and rotation/direction gives angular momentum.
20:19:45 <Bike> i'd be a lot better off if i could understand a tenth of everything noether did
20:20:12 * Bike bookmarks link for some later time when he's not drowning in his own failure
20:20:25 <oerjan> although the time one is sort of circular, i think, because this is all based on a formalism where you base physics on an energy function (the lagrangian or hamiltonian)
20:20:53 <oerjan> Bike: do you include the algebra work in that? :D
20:21:03 <boily> Fiora: ↑ I think you have a nice example here of what it is to be oerjan.
20:21:46 <Bike> oerjan: obviously.
20:21:54 <oerjan> Fiora: note that i cannot actually use these formalisms myself. never had a proper mechanics course.
20:22:03 <Bike> when i think noether i think conservation and something about chains.
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20:22:39 <boily> I should bring my bro to this chännel again. he could strike interesting conversations with oerjan about that physics/mathematics stuff.
20:22:46 <Fiora> so like, how does relative position thingy imply momentum conservation?
20:23:02 <oerjan> because i don't recall noether did much _other_ than her famous theorem that was in physics.
20:23:46 <oerjan> you do an integral iirc.
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20:24:40 <Bike> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=Noether&to=Noggin_%28TV_channel%29
20:25:28 <Bike> i guess some of these are max.
20:25:28 <oerjan> Fiora: oh also in case you don't already, maybe you'd like to know that noether was a woman.
20:25:50 <Fiora> I knew that bit ^^; though I really should learn more about her
20:26:20 <oerjan> i think she's considered the greatest woman mathematician in history so far.
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20:30:03 <oerjan> Bike: i also think the italic ones may be redirects?
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20:33:03 * oerjan had to check euler, that was over a page
20:34:41 <Bike> noether has done less math than euler and i have done less biology than darwin, yes
20:38:22 <oerjan> darwin has a bit more, but i think many of those are just named in honor of him
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21:22:23 <olsner> kmc: when I've tried to write stuff like "$(dirname "$(readlink -f "$0")")/foo" it has usually fallen on the lack of a useful and portable readlink program that is likely to be installed on the user's system
21:24:50 <olsner> but to answer the actual question: yes, trying to solve a problem "correctly" is weird, normal people just throw together some half-assed broken solution like ./foo or $(dirname $0)
21:24:57 <olsner> or even simply requiring that the script is run from a particular working directory
21:26:23 <kmc> I tend to symlink scripts around
21:26:26 <kmc> sorry you're bored olsner
21:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> <Fiora> so like, how does relative position thingy imply momentum conservation?
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21:27:32 <kmc> olsner: and yeah, istr that readlink -f doesn't work on OS X
21:27:43 <kmc> why can't everyone use Debian ._.
21:28:10 <Phantom_Hoover> like any symmetry in the laws of physics maps to a conservation law
21:28:27 <Bike> i had to find a 1941 journal volume for something and it says that it cost $3 per volume for a subscription.
21:28:32 <Bike> this is bullshit, modern world
21:29:55 <Bike> Apparently that's around $48 in modern USD, christ.
21:30:32 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i don't think you can blame me when i actually started the conversation.
21:31:44 <oerjan> that way lies disaster, Phantom_Hoover
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21:59:57 <Bike> Does anyone know where I could get a set of gears to play with? With stuff like differentials or gearboxes.
22:00:12 <kmc> 3D printer
22:00:58 <Bike> huh, scbearhol has a ceramics printer
22:01:04 <Bike> no bears i think
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22:37:53 <Bike> the library has Serbian mathematical journals from the seventies, and I just happened to pick the one that mentioned Aczel.
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22:45:33 <Bike> i think it's the same one anyway, i don't know why else you'd write about... "saturated theories"
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22:46:59 <kmc> yesterday in my kitchen there was a discussion of Kant and RMS and it was decided that RMS doesn't understand Kant
22:47:12 <Bike> i don't understand kant either.
22:47:18 <kmc> omg me too bike
22:47:24 <kmc> what kind?
22:47:51 <Taneb> Blocked nose, headache, the air tastes wrong
22:48:05 <Taneb> Occasional throaty cough
22:48:19 <Bike> i don't feel so bad about it because hegel seems to have understood kant weirdly. of course i don't understand hegel either.
22:48:55 <Bike> because hegel's writing style is difficult and he called india a faeryland, oerjan.
22:49:17 <Taneb> Also I think I've turned Les Miserables into a comfort film
22:49:55 <oerjan> maybe he couldn't stand kant because of his dialectic
22:50:50 <fizzie> Today's stupid program: HTK.
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22:51:14 <oerjan> is there a film called Les Comfortables that you can use to get misery
22:51:54 <fizzie> "FillTabFromParm: cannot convert MELSPEC to MFCC_D_A_Z_0"
22:52:22 <fizzie> There's no sensible reason why not, except that the code is a steaming pile of a turd.
22:52:32 <oerjan> i can categorically say that it's imperative to understand kant.
22:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> that is the strongest thing i have ever heard fizzie say
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22:56:00 <fizzie> somefunction(float *data) { ... float *fp = data-1; for (i=1;i<=nframes;i++) ... fp[i] ... } I honestly thought the "let's make 1-indexed arrays by pointing pointers one before the start" thing was an urban legend or something.
22:56:10 <drlemon_> was that a scary few minutes without me?
22:56:11 <fizzie> (It's a pervasive idiom in this codebase.)
22:57:16 <oerjan> drlemon_: yeah fizzie was telling horror stories
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22:57:43 <Bike> fizzie: my goodness.
22:58:01 <nooodl> fizzie: iirc that's actually undefined behaviour or something!
23:01:15 <fizzie> Bike: It also uses a "Vector" datatype everywhere for "N floats plus a size"; that's implemented by a typedef float *Vector; and allocating (N+1)*sizeof(float) bytes, then doing *(int *)vector = N; to store the size in the memory that should be occupied by the first float, and then using vector[1] .. vector[N] for the actual storage.
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23:04:51 <fizzie> Bike: There's also a SVector type that allocates 2*sizeof(Ptr)+(N+1)*sizeof(float) bytes, puts two pointers in the beginning and then the contents of a Vector after, and returns a pointer there in the middle so that you can still use it as svector[1]..svector[N].
23:05:22 <fizzie> But also ((Ptr*)svector)[-1] and [-2] to get at those pointers.
23:05:30 <fizzie> All this makes for very clean code.
23:07:11 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
23:08:20 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/AbIj is another end result.
23:20:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: You want me topic what?).
23:21:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fLib yes that is good thing.
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23:40:57 <kmc> wait but it's not MATLAB anymore
23:41:23 <Bike> the matlab is coming from inside the c
23:43:16 <kmc> that's where most things come from
23:43:17 <kmc> ultimately
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23:50:18 <pikhq> nooodl: It's not UB if you actually allocate space there! :P
23:50:52 <pikhq> However, that (int*) cast actually *does* invoke UB.
23:51:34 <Sgeo> I think dynamic typing in and of itself doesn't bother me as much as the idiotic API design decisions that dynamic typing often acts as an enabler for
23:51:36 <pikhq> "N floats plus a size" should be a typedef struct {size_t size; float array[]} *Vector;
23:51:51 <Bike> sure, if you're a wuss
23:51:56 <Sgeo> "This argument can be returned directly from the function if this other thing isn't found. Unless the argument is a function, in which case it will be called"
23:52:00 <Sgeo> THat sort of thing
23:52:11 <Bike> yeah, that sucks.
23:52:18 * Sgeo glares at Racket
23:52:33 <Bike> probably your mindset is what led to the "bondage and discipline typing" joke.
23:52:37 <Sgeo> http://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/hashtables.html?q=hash-ref#%28def._%28%28quote._~23~25kernel%29._hash-ref%29%29
23:52:52 <Bike> Anyway. Does anyone know of a mathematician named Holden. Probably early 20th century, worked in analysis.
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23:53:11 <Sgeo> Although at least in that case it's possible to write code that safely does what you want without needing to check types yourself
23:53:13 <Bike> Sgeo: lol nice.
23:53:24 * Sgeo glares at Clojure's trampoline
23:54:02 <Bike> uncited references suck.
23:54:05 <Sgeo> http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/trampoline
23:54:19 <Sgeo> "Note that if you want to return a fn as a
23:54:19 <Sgeo> final value, you must wrap it in some data structure and unpack it
23:54:19 <Sgeo> after trampoline returns."
23:54:32 <Bike> Oh. it's at typo for Holder. Fuckin ggreat
23:55:12 <fizzie> I think it might be crashing due to MAX_PATH.
23:55:15 <Bike> And I can't correct the author because they have been dead for fifty years.
23:55:58 <fizzie> See, I have this file list, it's at /akulabra/projects/T40511/htkallas/reverb-challenge/sys/asr/lib_revmask_a19_b0p43_g1p4_bcmi_N1000_G5_T5_norm0_MFCC_0_D_A_Z_CEPLIFTER_1/flists/reverbWSJcam0/revmask_a19_b0p43_g1p4_bcmi_N1000_G5_T5_norm0_MFCC_0_D_A_Z_CEPLIFTER_1.lst
23:56:08 <fizzie> And some might consider that as a long path.
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23:57:56 <fizzie> It doesn't crash when I run it single-tasked; the parallelization introduces a couple more hoops to jump through, could be that pushes it over the edge.
23:57:56 <Bike> "The Poincaré-Bendixson theorem for the Klein bottle" must be the most useful article in history