00:04:07 <fizzie> (The unit for measuring fuel consumption, that is; probably no specific term for distance-for-any-quantity-of-gas, because the conventional unit is the other way around.)
00:05:38 <quintopia> so you call L/hkm 'fuel consumption'?
00:06:04 <ais523> "fuel economy" would be the most used term for that sort of ratio in the UK
00:08:35 <fizzie> Well, as a literal translation of what I think a Finn would say, "fuel consumption" sounds perhaps closest.
00:08:49 <fizzie> ("Polttoaineen kulutus.")
00:12:26 <fizzie> Also the unit gets typed as "l/100 km", I don't think you're supposed to combine SI prefixes.
00:14:01 <ais523> there's no SI prefix for myriad? :(
00:15:46 <fizzie> Apparently there kinda-sorta was in "pre-SI".
00:16:18 <fizzie> "The prefix myria-, ten thousand,[6][7] denoting a factor of 10000, originated from the Greek μύριοι (mýrioi), that is, myriad, for ten thousand, and the prefixes demi- and double-, denoting a factor of 1⁄2 and 2, respectively,[8] were parts of the original metric system adopted by France in 1795. These were not retained when the SI prefixes were internationally adopted by the 11th CGPM conference in 1960 --"
00:16:28 <fizzie> It would be the wrong unit anyway.
00:16:59 <fizzie> "10 mym" does not seem like much of an improvement over "100 km".
00:17:47 <fizzie> "In Sweden and Norway, the myriametre is still very common in everyday use (although not recognized or used officially). In these countries this unit is called mil."
00:19:07 <fizzie> It would be one lakhmeter, of course.
00:19:08 <oerjan> that's the common norwegian unit for the presently discussed concept
00:19:38 <fizzie> Which apparently is abbreviated to L, so l/Lm.
00:23:48 <fizzie> "Poronkusema", lit. approx. "reindeer-pissing", is an old unit of distance from Lapland.
00:24:20 <fizzie> It's the distance you can ride a reindeer before giving it a bathroom break.
00:25:30 <kmc> wow i didn't know lappish raindeer were trained to use bathrooms
00:26:34 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_obsolete_units_of_measurement#Miscellaneous
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00:31:42 <fizzie> Reindeer fuel economy is probably measured as jäkälää/poronkusema. (Lichens/)
00:32:41 <kmc> google has determined that the languages I most often translate from are Russian, Finnish, and Hungarian
00:32:44 <kmc> i'm proud of myself
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00:33:24 <kmc> the first translation it gives for "poronkusema" is "Poronkusema" (capitalization sic) but the alternative is "piss of a reindeer"
00:34:07 <kmc> `frink 1 l/km -> jäkälää/poronkusema
00:34:21 <HackEgo> Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Warning: undefined symbol "jäkälää". \ Warning: undefined symbol "poronkusema". \ Unconv
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03:01:32 <zzo38> How should I store rosetrees in SQL so that pattern matching is possible?
03:05:49 <Sgeo> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1984 "Dead Hand"
03:06:26 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Hand_(nuclear_war)
03:07:33 <Sgeo> Yes, the SCP refers to that (as being an anomalous item other than what it's commonly believed to be)
03:19:57 <augur> do you guys know that malbolge was mentioned in a tv show?
03:20:28 <zzo38> augur: I think I have heard of that before.
03:20:33 <augur> thats fantastic :D
03:23:59 <augur> (`&%:0]!-}|z2Vzwv-,POqponl$Hjih%eB@@>}=<M:0wv^WsU2T|nm<unknown stuff here>,tcl(I&%$#"^CBV?Tx<uVtT^Rpo3N1f.Jh++Fdba=C<bn maybe?? then something>?!
03:24:25 <augur> google has no records for the first bit up to the unknown stuff
03:24:32 <augur> if its genuine malbolge, it was original
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03:24:37 <augur> or at least not on the internet
03:24:46 <augur> someone on this TV show is a nerd
03:26:35 <augur> apparently there's a "translation" of the code in malbolge for attacking the random number generator in this episode
03:26:47 <augur> E(pi) = Q(pi)/Q(E)+Q(pi)
03:28:17 <zzo38> I don't know about such program.
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03:39:04 <zzo38> If you are playing Pokemon card, and you have a card that says "The trash can is empty", then what are you going to do with it? My brother suggest some people might make up different interpretation of such an effect.
03:42:53 <kmc> zzo38 is your brother on irc
03:43:46 <kmc> maybe one day???
03:56:45 <zzo38> I made up this Pokemon card: Basic Pokemon E: { @ } HP: 3 W: - R: - RC: 0 /// POWER: Cannot retreat if confused or poisoned, but can retreat if sleep or paralyze, even if poisoned.
03:56:50 <kmc> i'm only a C paralegal but go ahead
03:57:35 <constant> kmc: what is the difference between "extern int a = 10;" and "int a = 10;" (the initalizer is important)
03:57:38 <zzo38> /// { @ }: Discard { @ } attached to this card in order to use this attack. Toss coin, if heads opponent sleeps. If this card is knocked out before your next turn, opponent's active card is knocked out and return all energy cards attached to this card into your hand. /// { *** } [1]
03:57:57 <kmc> "When the going gets tough, you don't want a criminal laywer, you want a CRIMINAL lawyer, know what I'm saying?"
03:58:12 <kmc> constant: I've never seen extern with an initializer >_>
03:59:20 <zzo38> I also made up the stage 1 card, which has HP 6, and has: POWER: Can use attack of basic form unless confused. /// { @@@ } [2]: Toss coin, if heads you may move 1 damage from one opponent's card to another.
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04:10:23 <Bike> is external with an initializer even legal
04:11:14 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know! Would it even mean anything?
04:12:02 <pikhq> This is one of the C edge cases I'm quite unfamiliar with.
04:12:13 <Bike> constant: are you seeing this in actual code?
04:12:24 <pikhq> I can only *assume* it's the same as "extern int a;int a = 10;"? But I cannot be certain.
04:12:32 <pikhq> Well. That is, if it's legal..
04:12:32 <constant> Bike: zzo38: only legal is specific cases
04:12:39 <constant> that is, if you don't have a defintion
04:12:42 <pikhq> Which it mightn't be.
04:12:52 <constant> and if you try to use link it with another file which also defines it you get linker error
04:13:48 <zzo38> pikhq: Perhaps it ought to do that, but, I don't know if it will.
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04:18:24 <zzo38> But is it standard to do that or is it implementation-specific feature?
04:29:09 <constant> so it appears to be standards allowed if not standards required
04:29:18 <constant> both also *warn* in both cases
04:29:25 * constant would consider it a standards bug
04:49:01 <Jafet> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus
04:49:37 <Jafet> “both governments agree that there is only one sovereign state encompassing both mainland China and Taiwan”
04:50:00 <Bike> are you new to the wondefulness that is china taiwan
04:50:37 <Bike> i like the island that was shelled so hard that residents are still making stuff out of bomb metal
04:50:47 <Fiora> hee hee, cross-strait relations are great
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05:08:08 <Bike> «I hold the conviction that there is a comparable phenomenon [to the influence of the Poincaré conjecture] today in the notion of a “polynomial time algorithm”. Algorithms are becoming worthy of analysis in their own right, not merely as a means to solve other problems. Thus I am suggesting that as the study of the set of solutions of an equation (e.g. a manifold) played such an important role in 20th century mathematics, the ...
05:08:14 <Bike> ... study of finding the solutions (e.g. an algorithm) may play an equally important role in the next century.» bro it's 1998.
05:10:17 <zzo38> I have not read about extern with initializers in GCC documentation, and I have not mentioned it in the Black-C specification.
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05:59:01 <zzo38> How much do you know of ESC/P format for printing?
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06:22:51 <Gracenotes> hm. I find it amusing that it seems that quoting from the 80s hit "You Spin Me Around" is, in and of itself, considered a tad obscene.
06:23:57 <Bike> is this a meatspin joke
06:25:18 <Gracenotes> so, compared to quoting various other 80s hits, you get slightly more nervous laughter
06:26:03 <Bike> oh. i didn't think it was actually realted
06:28:36 <Gracenotes> well, it's obscene by association. being quoted in the right (or wrong) context can change what a song signifies culturally.
06:33:13 <zzo38> "By association" should not be allowed to count in many cases.
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06:36:51 <Bike> it's funny watching a video from the 1950s about a "computer" made of gears.
06:38:49 <Bike> there's such a thing as a "snail cam". do you like this?
06:42:09 <kmc> Bike.zzo38.moed++
06:43:57 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a way to make a Haskell type which acts like the type I have called "enum" in mathematical descriptions of some things?
06:43:58 <Bike> i had no idea you could make a cam to compute, like, tangent.
06:44:28 <zzo38> Bike: I don't know either!
06:45:01 <Bike> or reciprocal. or apparently anything smooth. it looks weird
06:47:46 <Bike> "the barrel contains an infinite number of cams"
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07:11:30 <Sgeo> I think I actually like racket/match better than Haskell pattern-matching
07:13:02 <coppro> radix sort is everything that is terrible about computer science
07:13:50 <Bike> coppro: how come
07:14:43 <Sgeo> Beyond being able to make your own patterns, it has or and and
07:15:11 <coppro> Sgeo: because it's theoretically linear but in all the worst ways
07:15:20 <coppro> it works only on a restricted input dataset
07:15:45 <coppro> BUT in 99% of real-world applications, these restrictions in fact exist
07:15:51 <Sgeo> Wait, why are you replying to me? Was your radix sort statement in relation to racket/match?
07:15:51 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Oh, I think Rust's pattern matching has OR but doesn't have AND
07:15:53 <coppro> BUT it's still slower than other algorithms
07:16:57 <Sgeo> Seriously, racket/match is starting to be the only place, besides macros, where I like Racket's approach more than Haskell's
07:17:09 <Sgeo> Kind of depressing
07:19:03 <Sgeo> Oh, and first-class continuations
07:19:43 <Bike> doesn't haskell have a cont monad for ya
07:20:51 <FreeFull> There is a Cont monad, also known as the "mother of all monads"
07:21:16 <Sgeo> I'm not especially inclined to call what Cont does "first-class continuations", though I need more thought
07:21:27 <FreeFull> Yeah, what Racket does is probably nicer
07:22:00 <Sgeo> Maybe I don't know how to express that Haskell's Cont monad doesn't allow for a monad syntax that first-class continuations in Racket do (by virtue of being mother of all monads)
07:22:59 <Sgeo> Remember my "mamb" operator?
07:23:26 <Jafet> Did coppro have a bad trip from LSD
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07:24:35 <Sgeo> (define (mamb ma) (shift k (return (>>= ma k))))
07:45:03 <Sgeo> Racket debugger doesn't work well with stuff run from the REPL
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08:15:05 <Sgeo> http://pasterack.org/pastes/9079
08:17:09 <Sgeo> Maybe I should have it output
08:18:25 <Sgeo> uh http://pasterack.org/pastes/8324
08:18:30 <Sgeo> I swear it works on my computer
08:19:06 <Sgeo> Ok, that version doesn't
08:19:59 <Sgeo> http://pasterack.org/pastes/1950
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08:33:25 <Taneb> Sgeo, because lisps are scary and I'm ill
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09:05:51 <oklofok> i hear in scrubs that reading lisp is pretty easy
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09:43:57 <fizzie> Hmm. Why does my Icedove context menu for selected text suggest "Search Bing for: ..."?
09:47:20 <fizzie> (It also stubbornly starts Iceweasel instead of Chromium for links.)
09:47:32 <fizzie> I guess this is all documented somewhere.
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11:24:48 <oerjan> @tell augur <augur> nonsense nodoubt <-- it's actually a hello world program, see wikipedia's Malbolge page (where it was probably snatched from, although wp changed to another one later).
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11:26:10 <oerjan> @tell augur iirc it had some transcription errors. see also the talk page.
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11:52:08 <quintopia> why would they even use malbolge on a tv show? what weirdos. ben must be so proud
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12:02:12 <olsner> "The KMT of the ROC says that the consensus exists, while the DPP of ROC and the President of ROC in 1992, Lee Teng-hui, deny the existence of the 1992 consensus." ... pretty good consensus
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12:19:42 <Taneb> Once more I find myself wondering where the closest place is that sells pokemon
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12:23:28 <Taneb> I may go for a wander
12:23:45 <Taneb> And over the River
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14:25:33 <mroman> Does anyone of you guys know C?
14:28:41 <mroman> I'd like to know if malloc(sizeof(char)*80)[70] is well defined behaviour
14:28:47 <mroman> actually replace malloc with calloc
14:28:59 <mroman> assuming malloc does memset to zero
14:29:19 <mroman> the point is, that char might have an alignment
14:29:34 <mroman> in which case there is not enough space in 80*sizeof(char) for 70 chars
14:29:43 <mroman> i.e if char requires a 4-byte alignment
14:29:53 <mroman> then sizeof(char)*80 would only give you space for 20 chars
14:30:00 <Koen_> there's no alignment
14:30:25 <mroman> C requires that char has NO alignment?
14:30:39 <Koen_> well, at least is char arrays
14:31:31 <Fiora> char is required to be 1-byte, isn't it?
14:32:07 <Fiora> like I thought sizeof(char) has to be 1
14:32:21 <mroman> but does sizeof(char) INCLUDE alignment?
14:32:31 <Koen_> Fiora: yeah but what about struct s { char a; int b; char c };
14:32:33 <Fiora> Um... I... I don't think char could require more than 1 alignment @_@
14:32:53 <Fiora> then code that did, like malloc(70) couldn't store 70 chars
14:33:50 <Fiora> you could ask ##c maybe or something...? it doesn't feel right though
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14:39:59 <fizzie> mroman: I'm pretty sure you can't have an alignment larger than sizeof.
14:40:13 <fizzie> Because array elements are spaced at sizeof byte intervals, and array elements need to be aligned.
14:40:52 <mroman> int32_t could have a 16 byte alignment requirement
14:41:56 <fizzie> int32_t a[2] must have both a[0] and a[1] aligned suitably for int32_t, and (char *)&a[1] == (char *)&a[0] + sizeof (int32_t).
14:42:51 <mroman> is the second part a C requirement?
14:43:13 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it is. And I'm entirely sure it is for the case of a char array.
14:43:37 <fizzie> As in, char a[2] must have both a[0] and a[1] aligned suitably for a char, and &a[1] == &a[0] + 1.
14:45:01 <Fiora> I wonder what compilers do with long double for that...? like I think the type is 10 bytes but it's often aligned to 16? maybe the sizeof just gets set to 16...
14:45:12 <mroman> &a[1] == &a[0] + sizeof(char)?
14:45:19 <fizzie> Fiora: The sizeof is either 12 or 16 for GCC.
14:45:25 <fizzie> mroman: sizeof(char) == 1.
14:45:54 <mroman> but does the equation &[1] ==&a[0] + 1 hold for char?
14:46:15 <mroman> suitably aligned doesn't really mean, that you can do + 1 and get the next element?
14:46:15 <Fiora> fizzie: that makes sense...
14:46:25 <fizzie> mroman: &[1] does not mean anything, but other than that.
14:46:29 <mroman> if sizeof were to include alignment requirements
14:46:41 <mroman> then it is well defined
14:47:16 <mroman> if my int32_t is 4 bytes long, but has an 8 byte alignment requirement
14:47:22 <mroman> is sizeof(int32_t) == 8?
14:47:57 <fizzie> I don't think it's allowed to.
14:48:14 <fizzie> intN_t are not allowed to have padding bytes.
14:48:17 <fizzie> Also "An array type descirbes a *contiguously allocated* (emphasis mine) nonempty set of objects --" so I'm pretty sure (char *)&a[1] == (char *)&a[0] + sizeof a[0] for any type for a.
14:48:49 <Fiora> I think the fixed-length types require 8-bit chars? so like, int32_t has to be size 4
14:49:01 <Fiora> and um if I remember right the signed ones have to be 2s-complement
14:49:20 <fizzie> Fiora: I think CHAR_BIT == 16 is legal for an implementation with an int32_t.
14:49:31 <fizzie> You'd just have a sizeof (int32_t) == 2 there.
14:50:07 <fizzie> But CHAR_BIT needs to be either 8, 16 or 32 for int32_t to exist, because it cannot have any padding, and all sizes are in multiples of CHAR_BIT.
14:50:25 <fizzie> And you can't define int8_t if CHAR_BIT > 8, of course.
14:50:36 <Fiora> that makes sense...
14:50:52 <Fiora> I just remember someone telling me that sizeof(int32_t) was redundant or something <_<;
14:50:56 <mroman> but does contigously disallow padding bytes?
14:51:00 <Fiora> but maybe they were wrong
14:51:26 <fizzie> mroman: Perhaps that's arguable. There might be something more applicable.
14:52:09 <fizzie> mroman: Do note that absolutely everything allocates n * sizeof (type) bytes of memory for an n-element array of type, which wouldn't work if sizeof didn't include any padding.
14:58:17 <mroman> sizeof array / sizeof array[0] must yield the number of elements of array
14:58:32 <mroman> sizeof array[0] == sizeof char == 1
14:58:36 <mroman> therefore, sizeof array = 10
14:59:06 <mroman> the contigously allocation already requires, that there's no padding
14:59:09 <fizzie> I don't see why "sizeof array / sizeof array[0] must yield the number of elements of array" is any more or less obvious than "n * sizeof (type) is the size of an array", unless you have a paragraph to cite.
15:01:18 <mroman> Another use of the sizeof operator is to compute the number of elements in an array:
15:01:24 <mroman> sizeof array / sizeof array[0]
15:01:46 <fizzie> mroman: Non-normative example.
15:02:04 <mroman> the it's an example in the standard
15:02:14 <fizzie> It's still non-normative.
15:02:15 <fizzie> "Directives, this foreword, the introduction, notes, footnotes, and examples
15:02:15 <fizzie> are also for information only.
15:02:59 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/EIIg -- slightly related.
15:04:18 <fizzie> I was wondering how that'd work for an array of direct int32_t _Alignas(16) type, but the _Alignas in an array declaration applies to the array type, not the element type, and you can't have an _Alignas specifier in a typedef.
15:04:56 <fizzie> (A single int32_t _Alignas(16) a; seems to have a sizeof of 4, but that's perhaps not a problem.)
15:11:34 <mroman> is _Alignas standard C?
15:14:09 <fizzie> "sizeof (t) must indeed be a multiple of A(t) [alignment of t]", has the committee clarified in its answer for DR #074 in 93: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_074.html
15:15:38 <fizzie> And the question refers to the contiguous alignment requirement and correct alignment of array elements, so presumably that is also the official correct way of deriving the requirement.
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18:53:33 <augur> i didnt even think to check wikipedia
18:53:41 <augur> i just went straight to the esolang wiki
19:03:55 <zzo38> I realized something about the familiar which was almost certainly not intentional. I get +3 to Swim, and are going on a boat.
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19:09:07 <zzo38> I don't know how fast it is yet.
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19:10:08 <zzo38> We didn't actually do that part of the game yet, but we entered the boat. (And on the same day we had to go on a real boat after te game is played.)
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19:20:05 <zzo38> Maybe this bonus is useful if the boat falls down or if they tell us to get out of the boat. My character also has a sailor skill so that might also be useful too in case the captain falls off or whatever (the familiar therefore also has the same skill but probably cannot use it very well).
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20:15:03 * pikhq notes that Pokemon X/Y be awesome
20:15:35 <coppro> I realized after BW that the replay value has basically gone from pokemon games for me
20:15:43 <pikhq> Last game I played in the series was Emerald, so.
20:16:49 <zzo38> Will it improve by modifying the game with cheat codes, ROM hacks, and/or self-imposed restrictions?
20:20:37 <pikhq> Also, yeah, Pokemon is not exactly a series that you want to play each and every time it comes out.
20:21:20 <pikhq> The replay value is such that it merits a long enough span of time between replays that the game seems fresh.
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20:21:41 <coppro> zzo38: self-imposed restrictions, yes, others, no
20:23:04 <Fiora> pikhq: I was so badly sucked into Y I like, beat it in two days
20:23:05 <pikhq> Which fits, given that Satoshi Tajiri is literally autistic...
20:24:19 <Fiora> I'm tempted to keep playing just to get some nicer clothes but rune factory 4 and etrian odyssey said no
20:25:07 <coppro> I *might* consider playing the inevitable Z since they tend to really up the ante on those games
20:25:18 <coppro> I have far too much other stuff to eat my time
20:25:19 <Fiora> I'm not sure they'll do a Z, given they didn't do a pokemon grey
20:25:40 <pikhq> they did. Black/White 2.
20:26:15 <Fiora> that was a sequel though! not like platinum or something
20:29:28 <Taneb> I got X this afternoon
20:29:53 <pikhq> Also, god there's a lot of games I'll probably be playing on here.
20:30:04 <zzo38> I have "Akagi DS".
20:30:08 <pikhq> Last portable console I owned was a GBA.
20:31:16 <coppro> Fiora: platinum was sort of a sequel
20:31:33 <zzo38> The Akagi DS game is a mahjong game which include Washizu mahjong too.
20:31:47 <lexande> pikhq: last i owned was a GBC, last game i played on it was pokemon silver, get off my lawn etc
20:32:16 <Fiora> pikhq: yeah, like not long after launch a friend convinced me to get a 3DS and I've been playing DS/3DS games ever since, I think I'veplayed dozens now
20:32:19 <Fiora> there's so many good ones
20:33:13 <nooodl> pokemon is just so slow... god
20:33:13 <nooodl> i've played through two pokemon games but i don't think i could've done it without emulator speed-up. seriously
20:33:50 <zzo38> I agree it is slow. There are some options to speed it up a bit, such as turning off animations and set battle mode to "SET", although it is still slow.
20:34:17 <pikhq> Thankfully, they've done a lot of stuff to speed up the travelling bits.
20:34:21 <nooodl> Fiora: i keep telling myself it's not worth it to buy *yet another* ds but there's so many good games for 3ds it's really tough
20:34:26 <pikhq> (by god, running shoes)
20:34:51 <pikhq> lexande: I bought a GBC for Blue, FWIW.
20:35:49 <nooodl> yeah i've bought 2 ds's :(
20:36:17 <myname> i find the 2ds hilarious
20:37:02 <zzo38> I do have a "SuperCard DS" device but now it is broken, and Akagi DS is the only DS game card I have.
20:37:04 <pikhq> Yeah. The 3DSXL even seems awkward.
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20:40:09 <fizzie> I have a Game Boy somewhere, but I haven't seen it in a while. Wonder where it ended up.
20:40:17 <fizzie> Also something like a ten (10!) games for it, maybe.
20:41:25 <fizzie> Though I couldn't quite enumerate them. Tetris, SML1, SML2, some tennis thing, maybe some golf thing, a Qix clone (or maybe it's just Qix) and that one game with the balloons.
20:43:25 <myname> that game with the baloons was awesome
20:43:39 <fizzie> It's "Balloon Kid", apparently.
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