00:17:42 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 1337 seconds).
00:19:47 <Sgeo> I kind of like the idea of having both and? and $and?
00:24:29 <Sgeo> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:24:33 -!- Bike has joined.
00:26:09 <kmc> the latter short-circuits and the former does not?
00:26:43 <Sgeo> I thought you were the Kernel person here
00:27:05 <Sgeo> Ok, that came out kind of mean, sorry
00:28:15 <Sgeo> I see a strong similarity between eval in Kernel and uplevel in Tcl
00:28:48 <Sgeo> uplevel in Tcl lets you eval in the immediately 'above' scope, which I gather eval'ing using the passed-in environment in an operative also does?
00:37:06 <kmc> no it's fine
00:37:10 <kmc> i don't know that much about kernel though
00:37:11 <kmc> never used it
00:37:14 <kmc> just read some of the papers
00:38:28 <Sgeo> You can't pass around the uplevel 1 in Tcl though, and uplevel is too powerful, it lets you go up more than one scope
00:40:34 <kmc> I think CPython also lets you do that
00:41:44 <Sgeo> "Thus, not specifying the order of argument evaluation is key to the expressiveness
00:41:44 <Sgeo> of the language. "
00:44:33 -!- ^v has joined.
00:46:28 <kmc> that is confusing
00:57:38 -!- mnoqy has joined.
00:57:39 <Sgeo> ". Moreover, by the same reasoning, this additional information can be shared with the user of the Kernel system, as long as it remains unavailable to the program."
00:57:44 <Sgeo> What is this, the anti-Smalltalk?
01:07:56 -!- Frooxius has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:11:53 <kmc> i learned about http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/rtld-audit.7.html today
01:11:54 <kmc> seems p. fun
01:13:07 <kmc> it lets you hook almost everything the dynamic linker does, and therefore hook any dynamically linked functions too
01:13:12 <kmc> so you can use it for a souped up ltrace (http://people.redhat.com/jolsa/latrace/index.shtml)
01:15:32 <Sgeo> ... this completely solves the problem I had with Kernel not being Tcl-like enough for my tastes.
01:15:58 <Sgeo> Just... wrapping the operative. Means I can make the operative see what I want it to see
01:16:28 <elliott> couldn't you also just... use eval
01:17:04 <Sgeo> Yeah, but that seems like it would be ... ugly somehow.
01:19:03 <kmc> so you hide the eval inside the body of a vau
01:19:35 <kmc> users of the paperclip gem are encouraged to upgrade to the latest version of cocaine
01:31:41 -!- shachaf has joined.
01:35:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:35:42 -!- augur has joined.
01:36:06 <Sgeo> "It is almost possible to simulate the behavior of type applicative using only operatives,
01:36:06 <Sgeo> thus bypassing wrap and unwrap altogether"
01:36:12 <Sgeo> (almost is italicised)
01:36:17 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:36:34 <Sgeo> I vaguely remember mocking Kernel for the distinction once
01:36:37 -!- augur has joined.
01:36:55 <kmc> i wrote about that
01:36:57 <kmc> in my blog post
01:37:36 <Sgeo> I should read that post more thoroughly
01:37:49 <Sgeo> But reading Kernel spec currently
01:55:47 <Sgeo> "If lists is empty, or if all of its elements are not lists of the
01:55:47 <Sgeo> same length, an error is signaled."
01:56:09 <Sgeo> There's an argument for allowing "useless" cases... makes things easier on code-writing code
01:58:32 <Sgeo> if no list arguments are provided, there is no way to choose a result length that will be
01:58:32 <Sgeo> compatible with all nontrivial cases: the result length would have to be simultaneously
01:58:32 <Sgeo> equal to every nonnegative integer, and to positive infinity as well. "
01:59:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:59:44 -!- augur has joined.
02:04:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
02:28:24 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 1337 seconds).
02:37:26 <Sgeo> With Kernel, macro-like things generally have two environments in play, although I guess they can be given more
02:37:57 <Sgeo> With syntax-case used procedurally, there are potentially a lot of environments in play, if the input to syntax-case has been built up from different sources
02:38:07 <Sgeo> With syntax-rules, how many environments are in play? Just 2?
02:38:46 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Gnat).
02:42:45 <Sgeo> Is Kernel using list the same way it's often used in Tcl?
02:50:01 -!- ION has changed nick to ion.
03:02:02 <Sgeo> Kernel addresses a problem I had with Picolisp. Not sure if I prefer the way Kernel addresses it, but it does address it
03:02:39 <Sgeo> Namely: Whether functions that take symbols should evaluate their arguments (thus requiring the symbols to be quoted) or not
03:02:53 <Sgeo> Picolisp sometimes has functions for both cases
03:03:02 <Sgeo> Kernel is against the idea of encouraging programmers to quote symbols
03:17:28 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:31:40 <Sgeo> make-keyed-dynamic-variable binder thing uses a fresh dynamic environment
03:32:27 -!- Bike_ has joined.
03:33:48 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:42:05 -!- yours_truly has joined.
03:42:48 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
03:42:48 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
03:43:00 -!- yours_truly has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
03:43:44 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
03:44:45 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bike.
03:46:41 <Bike> uplevel in Tcl lets you eval in the immediately 'above' scope, which I gather eval'ing using the passed-in environment in an operative also does? <-- yeah, in some of my little kernel code i defined stuff in the calling environment to make a defclassy thing
03:48:18 <Bike> Sgeo: and re argument evaluation iirc that's because it lets you do amb sorta crap
03:48:24 <Bike> also good for optimization occasionally
03:49:01 <Sgeo> Are there actually implementations of Kernel?
03:49:16 <Bike> at least a dozen
03:49:22 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
03:49:26 <Bike> i mean they're mostly crap, but writing a lisp is damn easy
03:49:47 <Bike> as for anti-smalltalk, yeah, i think the author's attitude there is kind of silly
03:49:57 <Bike> bla bla weird language bla pointless bike crap
03:51:57 <Sgeo> Wonder if I could make a Racket language where the already existing Racket macros become first-class
03:52:28 <Bike> like, (wrap $vau) as you mentioned is nice, but you have to do (eval (cons (wrap $vau) ...) env) to make a closure in env which is imo kind of idiotic
03:54:23 <Sgeo> I have yet to give anywhere near sufficient thought to comparing Kernel with Rebol
03:55:41 <Bike> that sounds boring. now if you'll excuse me i need to read "Achilles and the tortoise climbing up the hyperarithmetical hierarchy"
03:57:22 -!- nisstyre has joined.
04:03:12 <kmc> achilles and the tortoise rob a liquor store
04:06:03 <Sgeo> I have some ideas on a ... not quite Kernel-like, but Kernel-inspired Racket language.
04:06:22 <Bike> is that like a CSI episode inspired by the headlines
04:07:04 <Sgeo> Rather than interpreting some Kernel-like language, I can redefine references to macros to output some kind of wrapped reference to the function behind the macro, and redefine function application to check for this
04:27:29 <Bike> http://shadow-file.blogspot.com/2013/10/complete-persistent-compromise-of.html haha jesus
04:35:10 <Sgeo> So, any responsible disclosure?
04:35:17 <Sgeo> Was Netgear ever contacted?
04:35:25 <Sgeo> Although, not sure what they really could do to fix it
04:35:34 <Sgeo> I mean, can't force everyone to update firmware, can you?
04:35:40 <Bike> "never make such a ridiculous system again"
04:35:55 -!- augur has joined.
04:37:49 -!- asie has joined.
04:42:54 <kmc> "Rust's grammar is defined over Unicode codepoints, each conventionally denoted U+XXXX, for 4 or more hexadecimal digits X" i like that they leave open the possibility of using astral plane characters in the language syntax
04:43:14 <Bike> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixQE496Pcn8
04:56:06 <shachaf> oh when you say you like it you mean that you like it?
04:58:47 <shachaf> help the quotes are too much for me
04:59:21 <kmc> ````````````````````````````````
04:59:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```````````````````````````````: not found
05:02:01 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
05:02:45 <shachaf> ´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´´
05:03:08 <shachaf> kmc: is that 32 by accident or due to repeated doubling
05:03:41 <kmc> it's due to a mild compulsion to do repetitive actions a power of two times
05:04:35 <shachaf> did you generate it via repeated ^W ^Y ^Y
05:05:53 <shachaf> did you know you can make irssi use lots of memory by doing that enough times
05:05:57 <kmc> i suspected as much
05:06:35 <kmc> 112112311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456112112311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456
05:07:30 <shachaf> hm: 12311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456112112311211234112112311211234511211231121123411211231121123456
05:07:58 <shachaf> "oopse" i forgot that 7 > 3
05:08:00 <kmc> 01101001100101101001011001101001
05:08:32 <ion> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ (f =<<) . ('0':)
05:08:34 <lambdabot> "01011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001011010011001...
05:09:33 <ion> WHOA, DUDE, you can make Irssi use lots of memory by adding lots of characters to the input bar? No way.
05:09:47 <kmc> hm so the Thue-Morse sequence is the fixed point of the Manchester code?
05:10:11 <Bike> i too enjoy restating facts i have just learned in a sarcastic fashion
05:13:56 <kmc> Bike: did you know that there are heterotrophic plants which parasitize mushrooms
05:13:59 <kmc> like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monotropa_uniflora
05:14:04 <kmc> it's white, doesn't produce chlorophyll
05:14:33 <Bike> yeah i did, they rule
05:14:53 <Bike> i mean, not literally, since they're just parasites and don't control the shrooms or anything, but,
05:15:20 <Bike> my bio class put a lot of emphasis on mycorrhiza. nice to know that whole "hey we found this is kind of essential" has filtered down to me
05:17:08 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:19:12 <Bike> i guess arbuscular mycorrhiza isn't as exciting though.
05:31:21 <Sgeo> "In vau3, some careful thinking will be
05:31:22 <Sgeo> needed to make sure that operatives can't be returned from an applicative."
05:32:02 <Sgeo> https://github.com/tonyg/js-vau/blob/master/TODO
05:33:14 <Bike> Sgeo: just checking here it's not just me that thinks using applicatives as security is kind of stupid
05:33:51 <Sgeo> I'm more disturbed by the thought of ceasing to treat operatives as first-class when that's the primary interesting thing
05:34:15 <Sgeo> I have no idea what is meant by using applicatives for capabilities, so can't comment on that aspect.
05:34:28 <Bike> well is that really supposed to be read as, make sure a compound operative will never return an applicative?
05:34:38 <Bike> because i mean, if so, i'd just disregard that whole implementation cos they don't know shit
05:35:46 <kmc> pfffft who needs js-vau just compile guile with emscripten and then run qoppa in it
05:35:59 <Sgeo> tonyg has some interesting other work
05:36:02 <Sgeo> Not related to Kernel
05:36:18 <shachaf> i heard that being outside in the sun is sinful, but i'm just going to disregard that sin cos tan
05:36:28 <Bike> kmc's got a point here,
05:36:38 <mnoqy> shachaf's got a good point here
05:36:46 <kmc> mnoqy has the best point here
05:38:01 <Bike> i think i need a photo of erdős, wide-eyed
05:38:39 <kmc> cocoa-coated co-cones
05:39:09 <Bike> are conic sections co-cones?
05:40:05 <shachaf> Bike: that is not serious question correct
05:40:32 <mnoqy> cocone is a wird word. i think i prefer "cone from" and "cone to" or whatever they were.
05:40:47 <Bike> it's serious in that i'm kind of wondering what a co-cone would be, not serious in that i don't actually think conic sections would be the answer
05:40:48 <shachaf> cones are weird "does such a simple thing even deserve a word"
05:41:11 <kmc> http://mushroomobserver.org/image/show_image/378480?obs=149510&q=1ZqL1
05:41:26 <shachaf> Bike: a cocone is just a natural transformation to a constant functor hth
05:41:37 <Bike> what the fuck does that have to do with cones
05:41:47 <shachaf> a cone is just a natural transformation from a constant functor
05:41:57 <Bike> starting to think i only learn math out of sheer spite for category theory
05:41:59 <mnoqy> it looks like a cone if you draw a picture and squint at it hard enough
05:42:21 <shachaf> what mnoqy said is the real answer
05:42:25 <mnoqy> be sure to draw the picture in such a way that it looks like a cone
05:42:36 <shachaf> because you draw a dot and then you draw a bunch of arrows from that dot to a bunch of other dots
05:42:45 <kmc> that's all of category theory
05:42:50 <mnoqy> sometimes the other dots even have arrows between them!
05:42:53 <Bike> arrows? or spite?
05:43:07 <shachaf> kmc: defining things via universal properties is p. neat do you know how that works
05:43:16 <kmc> a professor told me that computer science is the study of boxes and arrows so I guess it's not surprising that category theory is useful in CS
05:43:32 <shachaf> like the categorical definition of p. much anything such as a product
05:43:33 <mnoqy> who needs boxes when you have even more arrows
05:44:22 <mnoqy> draw a box out of arrows. experience the joy
05:44:26 <shachaf> now define ∞ categories using only arrows
05:44:46 <shachaf> or whatever those end up being i don't even know :'(
05:45:14 <kmc> is pointless topology where you make boxes out of arrows
05:45:35 <Bike> oh, great, thanks for reminding me i was going to read analysis situs -_-
05:45:55 <Bike> the intro going on about all the errors and how he thought his connjecture was trivial is pretty nice
05:55:29 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
05:56:51 <Sgeo> I get it! It's so beautiful! The connection between Kernel, Racket, Tcl, and Rebol
05:57:12 <Sgeo> (ok, not really, but I think I get some idea of similarities between Rebol and Kernel)
05:57:34 <Sgeo> Rebol keeps looking more like Racket than anything else :/
05:57:49 -!- Uguubee111117 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:59:03 <Bike> Sgeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNpW8KZOVhw
05:59:12 <kmc> Sgeo: they should have sent a poet
05:59:52 <kmc> Bike: what. why.
06:00:48 <kmc> that's like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8AUPSfgk18 (can't remember if this is nsfw or not)
06:01:29 <Bike> still not sure whether i believe that was actually graded
06:02:15 <Bike> the typing noises are so great
06:02:28 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEgtYOJ_qeM is definitely nsfw
06:05:51 <Sgeo> I can't help think that I almost like Rebol's model better than Kernel
06:06:44 <Sgeo> Although guess I need to think about whether hygiene can even be broken in the right ways in that model
06:07:29 <Sgeo> I also need to not drop dead of sleep deprivation
06:08:48 <Bike> dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed.
06:10:41 <kmc> one thing I like about the Internet is that things which could be brilliant postmodern art or could be utter shite are produced and published at a rate much too fast for any authority to judge them
06:13:50 <Bike> well cboyardee's later stuff has been well received
06:17:26 * Bike makes note to talk about cboyardee's "rainbow period"
06:18:58 <Sgeo> I think after this song finishes playing I MUST sleep
06:19:44 <kmc> 500KV Substation arc.. Nice
06:25:45 <kmc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2h6UPMcy8-o cool robot
06:29:01 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
06:36:39 <fizzie> Robots are categorically cool, AIUI.
06:37:17 <fizzie> fungot: Have you inspected any high-voltage transmission lines lately?
06:37:17 <fungot> fizzie: and i tried those md5s both all caps and all lowercase
06:37:20 <Bike> fizzie has never watched asimo try to breakdance
06:37:27 <fizzie> fungot: That's... not quite the same thing.
06:37:27 <fungot> fizzie: what do 's buy you that fnord and x*y with 0/ 1 then 1/ 1; 1/ 3
06:37:42 <Bike> "Automatic Chicken Breast Deboning Robot " finally
06:39:33 <Bike> oh, this is cool.
06:45:01 <kmc> yes let's teach the robots how to remove bones
06:46:16 <Bike> i meant the power line one, i'm a bit too squeamish for deboning
06:46:24 <fizzie> fungot: Have you learned to remove bones?
06:46:24 <fungot> fizzie: mä fnord mennä fnord. fnord a maclisp guy at heart." block expr; i don't think
06:46:45 <kmc> what about reboning (maybe this sounds like i'm hitting on you)
06:46:46 <fizzie> (Also: more Finnish in it.)
06:47:58 <Bike> well, surgery's cool.
06:48:10 <Bike> i might take a field trip to see a da vinci surgery robot at some point
06:48:58 <Bike> such are the advantages at going to a meat-oriented school, i guess
06:49:10 <kmc> "orientation: meat"
06:49:30 <kmc> Bike: do they have some of those cows with clear removable ports installed in their stomachs
06:49:47 <kmc> so you can reach in and experience the beauty of nature as grass is turned into cow shit
06:50:13 <Bike> is... that a thing
06:50:14 <fizzie> Isn't "orientation: meat" the kind of thing you post in your deadjournal?
06:50:26 <Bike> damn i need to get investigating opportunities re: meat
06:50:59 <Bike> i haven't even gone to the raptor hospital >_>
06:51:00 <kmc> also, isn't it great the range of meaning that English gets just from naming different kinds of animal shit... eg bullshit horseshit dogshit chickenshit apeshit batshit
06:51:13 <Bike> never thought of it that way. very cool
06:51:46 <kmc> these all have different, useful meanings imo
06:52:54 <Bike> the subtle but important distinction between ape and bat shit
06:54:11 <fizzie> Which one of those is closest to bananas?
06:55:19 <kmc> apeshit, clearly
06:55:48 <fizzie> Yes, well, it's the logical choice, but I had this nagging suspicion batshit was closer.
06:56:03 <fizzie> Even though it makes no sense NYARRR
06:57:17 <fizzie> "An army of sneezing wangs stalks my nightmare", as the saying goes.
06:58:04 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
06:58:42 <fizzie> http://isometri.cc/strips/i_have_horrible_allergies/
06:58:51 <kmc> wangs are not known to sneeze, in my experience
06:59:00 <Bike> i think 'sneering' could work though
07:01:07 <kmc> this is an odd comic
07:02:02 <fizzie> As I've mentioned a couple of times, back when I lived alone (redundant?) I had a dot-matrix-printer copy of http://isometri.cc/data/strips/only_when_youre_ready/21.gif as a wall decoration. It's classy to have some art, dontcha know.
07:02:37 <kmc> it's redundant because all of us are truly alone in life, deep down?
07:03:19 <fizzie> It's redundant because that's not the kind of picture you hang up as a member of the civilized society, perhaps.
07:03:34 <fizzie> (Also the print quality was bad.)
07:04:19 <kmc> i was going to put up some pictures but it sounds like I'll be moving (to another room in the same apartment) in a month or two
07:04:23 <kmc> so I'm putting it off again
07:05:00 <fizzie> Putting off and putting up sound pretty equivalent to moo. I mean, me.
07:05:36 <kmc> no its fine
07:05:39 <kmc> just small
07:05:52 <kmc> we have the smallest room and the largest number of people in a room
07:13:11 <fizzie> "NASA reports that it has used a pulsed laser beam to transmit data over the 384,633 kilometers (239,000 miles) between the Moon and the Earth at a transfer rate of 622 megabits per second." They can get 622 megabits to the *moon* but not more than barely a hundred to my home.
07:13:57 <fizzie> Not enough lasers involved in the latter, I suppose.
07:14:29 <Bike> bet you get better latency, tho
07:17:33 <fizzie> The press release doesn't mention it, but that sounds like a safe bet.
07:18:57 <kmc> you're complaining about having a hundred megabit connection to your house?
07:19:20 <kmc> come to america sometime
07:19:59 <fizzie> kmc: It's only ten in the other direction.
07:20:15 <fizzie> (Though the laser to the moon was also only 20 megs to the other direction.)
07:20:17 <shachaf> my internet connection at work is p. good
07:21:47 <fizzie> The student apartments here are (gradually) being upgraded to have gigabit Ethernet to the apartments themselves.
07:22:22 <fizzie> I think they've done about half.
07:22:54 <fizzie> http://netstat.ayy.fi/weathermap/ fancy graph.
07:25:26 <fizzie> Also the entire village used to be a single Ethernet segment at one point.
07:25:31 <fizzie> There was quite a lot of noise.
07:28:42 * kmc wonders who has wi.fi
07:38:00 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
07:47:31 -!- carado_ has joined.
07:55:05 -!- Taneb has joined.
08:02:08 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:09:39 -!- FreeFull has quit.
08:10:04 <fizzie> kmc: A company called "Wi Ventures".
08:11:39 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
08:16:57 <Taneb> http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
08:33:54 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
08:40:13 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
08:41:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
08:41:00 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
08:42:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
08:58:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
09:57:31 <mroman> merde. j'ai besoin d'une nouveaux laptop. :(
09:59:02 -!- Taneb has joined.
09:59:34 <ais523> I understand the rest of the sentence
10:08:58 -!- Frooxius has joined.
10:14:54 <nortti> http://beza1e1.tuxen.de/articles/accidentally_turing_complete.html
10:19:04 <ais523> nortti: strangely enough, I'd opened that in tabs in my browser, but not read it yet
10:19:22 <ais523> but, as the famous lament quote goes, even a box of rotten apples on a string is Turing-complete
10:19:50 <ais523> like, I was intentionally keeping aimake configuration low-powered
10:20:13 <ais523> and yet I think that's Turing-complete, if you write a bunch of files for intermediate storage (assuming the filesystem allows files with names of unbounded length)
10:22:44 <fizzie> I wonder how chaos-pp/order-pp relate to the C preprocessor entry on that page.
10:23:39 <fizzie> (Also I've never figured out how those two work, but the claim to be standards-compliant, yet have apparently general control structures like 8while.)
10:25:24 <ais523> fizzie: huh, that's the same trick I used in Verity
10:25:25 <fizzie> And there's some kind of a lambda calculus example.
10:25:35 <ais523> all the internal-use-only identifiers start with digits to make them impossible to enter in a user program
10:25:47 <ais523> because the lexer won't lex their names
10:26:14 <fizzie> Is that the same thing? I don't think the number is part of the name here.
10:26:39 <fizzie> I guess maybe they're part of the same C preprocessing token.
10:26:43 <ais523> well, the C standards allow you to give semantics to otherwise illegal code
10:27:04 <ais523> it's the usual way to implement extensions
10:27:10 <fizzie> This is not illegal code or an extension, though.
10:31:15 <fizzie> But even in the preprocessor, macro names are restricted to identifiers, so the 8's can't at least be part of a macro name.
10:31:18 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:31:45 <fizzie> Perhaps I should try to look at how it works at some point. It's just that, IIRC, order-pp is written on top of chaos-pp, and the latter seemed quite... confusing.
10:32:33 <fizzie> A lot of token concatenation is involved, I think.
10:34:11 <fizzie> I guess since everything is ultimately inside some ORDER_PP(...) macro it has a chance of prepending something else before the numbers.
10:37:15 <fizzie> But e.g. after #define ORDER_PP_DEF_8fib_iter ORDER_PP_FN(8fn(8N, 8I, 8J, 8if(8is_0(8N), 8I, 8fib_iter(8dec(8N), 8J, 8add(8I, 8J))))) the expression ORDER_PP(8stringize(8to_lit(8fib(8nat(5,0,0))))) expands into the string "139423224561697880139724382870407283950070256587697307264108962948325571622863290691557658876222521294125"
10:37:24 <fizzie> (Just verified that with gcc -E.
10:37:55 <ais523> cpp isn't turing-complete unless you run it in a loop, there's an entropy restriction
10:38:04 <ais523> but you can still make decently large loops and the like
10:38:43 <fizzie> I just wonder, since there seems to be no inherent limitations in order-pp.
10:40:42 <fizzie> I guess there is some kind of an arbitrary limit somewhere deep in chaos-pp.
10:40:57 <fizzie> But it manages to look quite a lot like the real thing, anyhow.
10:41:14 <ais523> I think offhand that cpp is primitive recursive, not sure on that though
10:41:24 <ais523> it's a computational class that doesn't get that much love, really
10:43:18 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
10:48:17 <fizzie> You could sort of argue that the "Stuff which is somehow limited -- is still considered Turing complete, since all "physical" Turing machines are resource limited", should apply to C preprocessor too.
10:49:26 <fizzie> Compare e.g. someone's brainfuck interpreter in CPP that has unbounded memory but an execution step limit of 2^33 instructions, with Apache's rewrite rule system that has a similar arbitrary restriction and still has been counted to be TC on that page.
10:51:40 <ais523> I remember originally registering for reddit for the purpose of complaining that that HTML/CSS TCness proof was wrong
10:58:25 -!- yorick has joined.
11:01:23 <FireFly> What did it rely on anyway?
11:01:38 <FireFly> I recall there being something fishy with it
11:12:06 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:12:22 <ais523> FireFly: it had limited memory horizontally, probably vertically too
11:12:44 <ais523> although I got at least some reddit commentors trying to work around that with CSSForms
11:12:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
11:15:41 -!- Koen_ has joined.
11:17:18 <ais523> mroman: I don't think it got very far
11:38:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
11:39:47 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
11:53:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
11:59:16 -!- boily has joined.
11:59:28 -!- metasepia has joined.
12:08:17 -!- oerjan has joined.
12:09:14 -!- nooodl has joined.
12:09:37 <boily> good headache morning.
12:10:22 <boily> oerjan: people from trondheim are weird.
12:10:51 <oerjan> boily: itj færra nålles
12:11:31 <boily> oerjan: de quossé?
12:12:15 * oerjan doesn't actually speak trondheim dialect, despite living there for most of 24 years.
12:12:35 <fizzie> (Ooh, I low how Google Translate picks all the wrong senses for that.)
12:13:07 <oerjan> boily: hey no fair confusing google translate with your ... oh wait.
12:13:24 <boily> fizzie: do not change the service???
12:14:09 <fizzie> boily: It's approximately "you don't say [sarcastic tone]" or "say no more", it's just managed to choose pretty badly there.
12:14:11 <boily> oerjan: «dequossé» → «de quoi c'est» → «what is that» → «what» → «wut».
12:15:46 <oerjan> boily: it's a notorious trøndersk phrase which is used as a farewell greeting and means approximately "Don't get in trouble."
12:15:58 <fizzie> "muuta" is the second-person imperative of the verb "muuttaa" (alter, change), but it's also the partitive case for the noun "muu" (else, other).
12:17:00 <FireFly> No relation between "muuttaa" and "mutate"?
12:17:16 <ais523> hmm, in English, "you don't say" is mostly used as a sarcastic reply when someone says something really obvious
12:18:18 <fizzie> And "virka" is indeed a post or a public office or things like that, but also second-person imperative of the verb "virkkaa", which is (in addition to crocheting) an old-fashioned dialectal alternative of "to say, to speak".
12:18:28 <fizzie> oerjan: That should be "älä laita vauvaa".
12:18:31 <oerjan> ais523: you don't say.
12:19:17 <fizzie> ais523: So I thought. I think the Finnish works for that, at least vaguely, but it can also be used in a "you're certainly right about that" context, depending on tone.
12:19:45 <fizzie> I suppose more for the latter, really.
12:20:03 <fizzie> "Ai, älä?" or something would be a closer match for "you don't say".
12:21:58 <oerjan> fizzie: gt doesn't even give your senses as alternatives.
12:23:11 <fizzie> oerjan: I can see that. Though if you type in "virkkaa", it does list "say", "quoth" and "utter" as alternatives.
12:23:22 <fizzie> I guess "quoth" is kind of close, in that it sounds obsolete.
12:23:22 <ais523> hmm, I fear oerjan is transitioning into that awful curse of believing everything that computers say
12:23:38 <fizzie> fungot: Do you believe everything your computer tells you?
12:23:38 <fungot> fizzie: that's what i wanted
12:23:58 <fizzie> I suppose it's understandable for a piece of software.
12:24:14 <fizzie> Er, meaning fungot. I'm not implying anything about oerjan here.
12:24:23 <ais523> yeah, I think fungot trusting its computer is entirely reasonable
12:24:24 <fungot> ais523: that depends... there's two ways of doing things. and, tcl and ruby are my strongest.
12:24:38 <oerjan> ais523: if it's not on google, it doesn't exist!
12:24:39 <ais523> wow, two answers that can be interpreted as relevant in a row
12:25:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Are you, in fact, a piece of software?
12:25:34 <fizzie> fungot: You're on a roll. (I'm sure you'll reply something insensible to this.)
12:25:34 <fungot> fizzie: am i allowed to not use it voluntarily.
12:25:49 <oerjan> fizzie: well i'm fairly soft...
12:26:05 <fizzie> oerjan: I wonder if that's in the official translation.
12:27:15 <fizzie> No, it's just "korppi huus" (shortened form of "huusi", second person singular past tense of "huutaa", to shout).
12:28:03 <FireFly> I'm not entirely comfortable with the fact that fungot does tcl and ruby
12:28:03 <fungot> FireFly: blicero has been rotated. i think tspl is basically just r5rs scheme though. just used sox to convert fnord in emacs. how to deal with
12:28:07 <fizzie> ("Virkkoi korppi" sounds a bit too sedate for that context, actually.)
12:28:34 <fizzie> fungot: Is your army for world domination going to run on TCL and Ruby?
12:28:34 <fungot> fizzie: if you can find a very simple system that allows him to edit the generated output to get rid of methods all together just have the equivalent of " jump to the start and end of thread testing always the same.
12:29:37 <FireFly> That sounds vaguely relevant as well
12:30:09 <oerjan> also gt doesn't know what "Nevermore" is in finnish.
12:30:43 <fizzie> oerjan: "Ei milloinkaan."
12:30:48 <FireFly> and here I thought you knew Finnish
12:31:04 <FireFly> fungot: do you know Finnish?
12:31:04 <fungot> FireFly: that's still distracting from the main page and some links are known not to work
12:31:18 <fizzie> "Turhaan pyydän armahdusta, järkkymättä korppi musta / istuu päässä veistokuvan, hievahda ei paikaltaan. / Unelmissaan vain se mailla hornan liikkuu irvokkailla, / kun sen varjo aaveen lailla illoin kasvaa lattiaan / varjo synkkä, raskas, josta sieluni ei nousemaan / pääse enää milloinkaan."
12:31:54 <fizzie> There's some adaptation that has been done there.
12:32:13 * boily is drinking probably prestigious but most possibly bootleg 大紅包袍
12:34:56 <fizzie> I put *that* in GT, and for some weird reason it writes "BUDGE" in all uppercase.
12:36:06 <fizzie> Wow, the prosody for speaking that out loud was quite "out there".
12:36:19 <fizzie> Their language models aren't perhaps trained for poetry.
12:37:46 <fizzie> (You can also read it as "don't say 'muu'", a favourite for witty people everywhere.)
12:38:40 <oerjan> Onko lehmä on Buddha-luonto?
12:40:38 <boily> muu, muu, muu, muu ♪
12:43:34 <fizzie> oerjan: "Onko lehmällä Buddha-luonto" hth
12:44:16 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: possibly "Buddha-luontoa". It's debatable.)
12:45:57 -!- FreeFull has joined.
12:46:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Changing host).
12:46:00 -!- FreeFull has joined.
12:51:54 <ais523> hmm, now I want to make an esolang where all strings are equal
12:51:58 <ais523> but I'm not sure why that would be interesting yet
12:53:23 <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
12:54:18 <FreeFull> ais523: You could make one where there are no string literals, so you have to write a string-generating function
12:54:20 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
12:54:24 <HackEgo> 1122) <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
12:54:44 <ais523> FreeFull: elliott already did that with Underload
12:56:50 <boily> elliott already did everything conceivable. except Feather.
12:56:58 <FreeFull> Doesn't seem to be what I was thinking of
12:57:29 <ais523> FreeFull: it basically only had literals for the basic commands, all of which had side effects (those commands themselves)
12:57:32 <oerjan> <ion> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ (f =<<) . ('0':)
12:57:50 <oerjan> that's not a correct thue-morse.
12:58:15 <FreeFull> ais523: http://yiap.nfshost.com/esoteric/underload/99.ul Are you sure you are talking about Underload?
12:58:21 <ais523> FreeFull: it was an Underload derivative
12:58:32 <ais523> the difference was that it had no string literals
12:58:38 <ais523> you had to build them up from the individual commands
12:58:57 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ ('0':) . tail . (f =<<)
12:59:02 <oerjan> > let f '0' = "01"; f '1' = "10" in fix $ ('0':) . tail . (f =<<)
12:59:08 <lambdabot> "01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001...
12:59:15 <FreeFull> I was thinking of something where you provide a formula and it becomes a string
13:00:33 <FreeFull> So something like (\x -> 0x41) would just generate an infinite string of a
13:00:55 <ais523> `quote sometime this week
13:01:07 <HackEgo> 214) <zzo38> ais523: Maybe it is better, because I don't think the octopus will live very well in the tree. But the difference is that the Internet is lying and you cannot see such things; you could make modified picture, though, in order to lie more clearly, at least. \ 356) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getti
13:01:14 <HackEgo> 356) <ais523_> meanwhile, I've been running a program for over 24 hours (getting close to 48 now) which is calculating digits of pi, in binary <ais523_> so far, it has found four digits <ais523_> I hope it will find the fifth some time this week
13:01:16 <ais523> that's the one I was looking for
13:01:29 <FreeFull> What if all strings were expressed as polynomials?
13:01:36 <ais523> that program used that representation for lists
13:01:42 <ais523> and used lists as strings of digits
13:01:48 <ais523> that's why it was so slow, btw
13:03:13 <FreeFull> ais523: You could probably calculate pi faster than that using the first computer ever made
13:03:25 <ais523> FreeFull: not using that algorithm :)
13:03:27 <FreeFull> Much faster to calculate even by hand
13:05:21 <boily> I still believe the fastest way to get a very accurate pi is to use a large circle and a rope.
13:05:43 <ais523> boily: wouldn't that be inaccurate due to the curvature of the earth?
13:06:21 <boily> hmm... probably a very, very large circle then.
13:06:36 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
13:06:41 <boily> hey, what if we used the observable universe?
13:06:57 <ais523> how are you going to measure the diameter/area of the observable universe?
13:08:28 <fizzie> ais523: I'm sure there are some estimates about the diameter based on $PHYSICS_THING, and then you can just multiply by pi.
13:08:46 <fizzie> (For diameter and circumference.)
13:08:54 <ais523> fizzie: this is for measuring pi
13:08:56 <fizzie> (I don't think you generally measure area with a rope, anyway.)
13:09:01 <ais523> so you can't use any formulas that depend on the value of pi
13:09:21 <fizzie> Oh, you just do it recursively.
13:10:25 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
13:12:21 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmail that's the most (deliberate hyperbole) random "History" section in a Wikipedia article.
13:12:48 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
13:14:40 <boily> “This article appears to be written like an advertisement.” but at least, it's an ecologically friendly advertisement.
13:15:43 <FreeFull> boily: I'm pretty sure using the observable universe only would get you about 20 digits or so
13:16:00 <FreeFull> And that's assuming it is flat in the first place
13:16:29 <boily> the Universe is flat, I say!
13:20:04 <boily> it is an assumption I'm perfectly happy to live by. I just can't picture curvature in my head.
13:20:22 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
13:20:40 <boily> okay, I can imagine a rubber sheet (2D) being distorted in space (3D), but I can't imagine space (3D) curvatured (4D).
13:22:11 <`^_^v> can you imagine anything 4d?
13:22:50 <boily> nope. not at all. even the 3D projections disagree with my eyeballs, which in turn send confusing eldritch images to my brain.
13:24:43 <FreeFull> boily: http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/
13:25:10 <ais523> adanaxis helped, for me
13:25:19 <FreeFull> Lets you look at hyperbolic and elliptic spaces ( and others too )
13:25:26 <ais523> it's a 4-dimensional first person shooter (in space, so no gravity to worry about)
13:25:39 <ais523> the most obvious thing is that four dimensions gives a /lot/ of room to dodge
13:26:26 <boily> I'm already feeling nauseated (re “good headache morning”), so I think I will pass today.
13:26:57 <ais523> FreeFull: I've wanted to set an RPG in a hyperbolic space
13:27:02 <ais523> to confuse people who tried to draw a map
13:29:28 <FreeFull> ais523: I find both hyperbolic and elliptic space cool
13:29:36 <FreeFull> Although elliptic is more understandable
13:30:37 <FreeFull> To be honest though, when you look at hyperbolic space in 3D you don't really realise it is hyperbolic
13:30:47 <FreeFull> Although it does somehow feel bigger
13:35:50 <fizzie> # single valued (/me smirks)
13:35:52 <fizzie> -- Evolution's LDAP schema for an address book entry.
13:35:59 <fizzie> So unfair for poly people.
13:42:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
13:42:08 <FreeFull> http://i.imgur.com/pL8aVPF.png
13:44:26 * boily is mantra-ising... “stay focused, stay focused, tea goes down, not up, stay focused...”
13:45:09 <FreeFull> That wasn't 3-sphere but Binary Dihedral 12 L
13:45:18 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: http://www.geometrygames.org/CurvedSpaces/
13:45:50 <FreeFull> Note that for some reason it won't work on Linux with AMD's propertiary drivers, but will work with open source ones
13:46:46 <FreeFull> Dihedral means a polyhedron with two sides
13:47:47 <FreeFull> One weird thing about elliptic spaces is that as you come closer to something, it first appears to be moving away from you, and then towards you
13:47:49 <Phantom_Hoover> in this case it means the symmetry group of said polygon
13:48:45 <Phantom_Hoover> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Dicyclic-commutative-diagram.svg helpful diagram
13:49:20 <FreeFull> I just checked and it doesn't actually seem to be a dihedron
13:49:55 <FreeFull> It seems to be a prism-like thing with 12 faces around the edges
13:52:11 <FreeFull> If you make the struts thin it looks like a torus
13:53:20 <FreeFull> The inside and outside switch as you cross the boundary
13:57:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:04:37 <fizzie> "Description: SSH-Contact is a client/service tool that makes easy to connect your telepathy IM contacts via SSH. No need to care about dynamic IP, NAT, port forwarding or firewalls anymore; if you can chat with a friend, you can also SSH him."
14:04:43 <fizzie> That sounds kind of weird.
14:05:00 <FreeFull> You could use the galaxy or gyroscope
14:07:50 <fizzie> It's a Gnome IM thing.
14:08:02 <fizzie> I get confused about which part is Empathy and which part is Telepathy and so on.
14:08:31 <fizzie> I *think* Telepathy is the backend, and Empathy the UI.
14:08:43 -!- diva has changed nick to avid.
14:08:54 <Koen_> empathy is the part about feelings and telepathy the parts about thoughts
14:09:15 <boily> gnome is the part about gardens. twnh.
14:11:04 <boily> oh. a glaring hole!
14:11:18 <fizzie> quintopia: I think there's some module or another for bitlbee to use at least the IM protocol parts of Telepathy.
14:11:28 <boily> `learn twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help.
14:11:40 <fizzie> (Telepathy also does some audio/video call things like SIP.)
14:11:50 <boily> SIP is evil. very, very evil.
14:12:23 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you could get from Telepathy that bitlbee wouldn't already do via other means.
14:13:21 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:13:44 <fizzie> Except perhaps a single place to configure IM accounts, but that sounds only relevant if you were actually using the Gnome/Empathy stuff.
14:13:51 -!- nisstyre has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
14:14:13 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
14:14:50 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Quit: Uguubee111118).
14:17:09 <fizzie> I'd perhaps like to get Skype into Bitlbee, but last I looked, it required running a headless copy of the actual client, and that sounded too silly.
14:17:12 <fizzie> (I don't suppose the MSN XMPP things they were making extend to IM'ing Skype users now that the accounts have been merged?)
14:20:29 <Phantom_Hoover> FreeFull, i think the binary dihedral n L is a 2n sided prism?
14:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> with the upper and lower faces glued, although i'm not sure in what orientation
14:21:36 -!- carado has joined.
14:23:30 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
14:26:13 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
14:27:40 -!- nisstyre has joined.
14:28:16 -!- conehead has joined.
14:32:06 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: Could always figure out the file format to know for sure
14:32:07 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has joined.
14:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> it's "the quotient of the 3-sphere by the binary dihedral group D_12"
14:35:32 <FreeFull> I'm not a geometricist so that doesn't tell me much
14:36:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't really know what it means to take the quotient of a topological space with a group
14:38:14 <FreeFull> I just ripped the Unreal CD to an iso
14:38:19 -!- asie has joined.
14:40:08 <FreeFull> I think Wine supports DirectX 5 pretty well
14:40:15 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
14:40:47 <boily> FreeFull: platinum and/or gold.
14:46:47 -!- asie has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
14:50:09 -!- asie has joined.
15:18:02 -!- carado has joined.
15:18:22 -!- carado has quit (Client Quit).
15:21:51 -!- Koen_ has joined.
15:41:04 -!- carado_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:41:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:42:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
15:52:43 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
16:12:31 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
16:21:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:22:10 -!- augur has joined.
16:23:27 <fizzie> "Do not close our corridor door tonight if anybody is still working inside, please. Hopefully the lock gets fixed tomorrow, but currently the opening button does not work."
16:23:34 <fizzie> That is kind of tragic, to be stuck at work.
16:26:16 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
16:33:26 -!- Meilyn has joined.
16:35:07 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:35:45 -!- asie has joined.
16:40:59 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 24.0/20130910160258]).
16:42:01 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
16:46:00 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:46:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:46:40 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Changing host).
16:46:40 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
16:49:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
17:00:15 -!- augur has joined.
17:01:31 -!- ais523 has quit.
17:02:26 -!- Meilyn has left.
17:09:48 -!- muskrat has joined.
17:23:48 -!- ^Tristesse^ has joined.
17:24:00 <boily> `relcome ^Tristesse^
17:24:04 <HackEgo> ^Tristesse^: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:25:53 -!- ^Tristesse^ has left.
17:27:37 <boily> @tell ^Tristesse^ the usual.
17:28:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: välkommen: not found
17:29:02 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
17:31:46 <oklofok> (i guess there's a more appropriate word for welcome)
17:32:26 <FireFly> coi is approx. "hi", right?
17:33:19 <oklofok> that's pretty much all i know
17:35:15 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:37:02 <lambdabot> FireFly asked 6m 53s ago: tervetuloa?
17:38:06 <oklofok> k i'm not sure what i asked
17:39:21 <FireFly> something about speaking and lojban, I think
17:40:13 <oklofok> "do you talk ? lojban" but i'm not sure which place fi gives
17:40:32 <oklofok> i don't remember what the lojban vowel order is
17:41:37 <boily> fee fy fo lojbanum.
17:44:21 -!- muskrat has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
17:53:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:00:51 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
18:09:27 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
18:10:48 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
18:11:05 -!- Bike has joined.
18:15:41 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
18:26:48 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:27:11 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:27:49 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
18:27:49 -!- sebbu has joined.
18:46:02 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
18:46:29 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
18:52:27 -!- Slereahphone has joined.
18:53:10 -!- conehead has joined.
18:53:12 <kmc> `rwelcome Slereahphone
18:53:15 <HackEgo> Slereahphone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:55:36 <boily> oh, there's an rwelcome? looks nice!
18:56:06 <Bike> i think it's just a rename of the previous rwlcome.
18:56:37 <kmc> it's different from relcome which is per-character and looks bad imo
18:56:38 <olsner> this colors by word, the other one colors randomly I think
18:57:06 <boily> the other one is a fungotting nightmare to enlatexify.
18:57:07 <fungot> boily: the system... if operating... will be connected." :-d i am a scientist.' ( c interface generator), which would explain my ignorance)
18:57:38 <boily> fungot: no, it does not operate.
18:57:38 <fungot> boily: you there tonik? a: not being retarded!
18:57:48 <FireFly> fungot: and it doesn't explain your ignorance either
18:57:48 <fungot> FireFly: you're 13 hours east of me? and please define ' compiled language.
18:57:52 <olsner> can't you just make some tex macros that interpret the magic bytes that sets colors in irc?
18:58:15 -!- conehead has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:58:15 <olsner> might make the tex source horrible :D
18:58:45 <boily> my friend is travelling in Japan, so she's 13 hours from me. I should ask her about any bot sighting.
18:58:47 <FireFly> or just a sed script that substitutes the coloury IRC bytes with LaTeX macro invocations
18:59:05 <FireFly> fungot: for the record I'm one hour west of you. I think.
18:59:05 <fungot> FireFly: i am going to teach it how to correct the semantics of letrec in r5rs. what's the caveats?
18:59:31 <FireFly> The caveats of fungot teaching something something?
18:59:31 <fungot> FireFly: but purely for fnord entering in the repl'?" i'm not implying anything resembling creationism, i'm saying he's growing it in the book
19:00:20 <boily> olsner: you are a cocoonspirator on the Wisdom repo. you can sed to your heart's content on it.
19:00:41 <Slereahphone> So after a few years of joblessness and such I am doing some CS studies
19:00:59 <olsner> boily: I don't have enough disk space to install tex on this system
19:01:04 <Slereahphone> And now that I'm starting to learn some actual programming
19:01:46 <Slereahphone> Maybe finally implement the Andrei Machine or Limp
19:01:47 <boily> olsner: a full latex system isn't that big. it only takes...
19:02:18 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:02:24 * boily waits while the du completes...
19:02:25 -!- monotone has joined.
19:03:12 <boily> Taneb: I like your github picture. is that bread?
19:03:43 <olsner> boily: oh, merely at least 1GB too big then
19:05:39 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:06:07 <fizzie> boily: You can do randomness in LaTeX; our university logo needs that.
19:06:33 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:06:37 <fizzie> (Because it's either A!, A? or A" and the punctuation mark is in one out of three designated colors, randomly.)
19:07:26 -!- monotone has joined.
19:09:44 -!- Nisstyre-laptop has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:13:43 -!- Bike has joined.
19:14:30 <boily> fizzie: ah! found it. aalto.fi.
19:14:47 <fizzie> boily: Sadly, terribly few official places actually do randomize it.
19:15:29 <boily> looks like the home page is stuck on a yellow “?”.
19:15:30 -!- asie has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:16:08 -!- asie has joined.
19:16:20 <fizzie> Though the bottom header has the "
19:16:28 <fizzie> And the per-school pages have the red ?.
19:17:26 <fizzie> The logo generator -- http://aalto.digtator.fi/custom/aaltologoselector.aspx -- does put out random ones.
19:18:07 -!- monotone has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:18:26 -!- monotone has joined.
19:19:29 <fizzie> You can get it as a PDF.
19:25:33 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
19:39:21 <Taneb> boily, it's a yorkshire pudding
19:39:34 <boily> oh, the mysterious thing that sounds delicious.
19:40:24 <Taneb> a) it's savoury and generally served with a roast and b) I can send you a recipe if you want
19:43:47 <Bike> https://www.eventbrite.com/event/8938393977/ so who's going
19:44:41 <Bike> then how do you explain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre%C3%AF_Makine
19:44:45 <Slereahphone> It was an esolang based on the Kolmogorov machine
19:47:30 -!- carado has joined.
19:48:08 <Slereahphone> I wonder if I still have the notes I wrote down for it
19:49:38 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
19:50:06 <Fiora> Bike: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0809.4235.pdf help this is scary ;_;
19:50:22 <Fiora> (I followed the links from that story going around about quantum-entanglement-emergent-time and came upon a paper I will never understand)
19:51:26 <Bike> "hm, i bet this would scare the shit out of bike, better show them"
19:51:57 <Bike> this reads like snarxiv
19:52:34 <boily> holy integrals, batman!
19:53:14 <Slereahphone> it reads like a pretty standard quantum gravity paper?
19:53:28 <Fiora> http://arxiv.org/pdf/1310.4691v1.pdf is the more recent one
19:53:48 <Fiora> it's basically an experiment to demonstrate a thing where the time-evolution of a system exists with respect to an entangled clock but not a non-entangled clock or something?
19:53:51 <Bike> Slereahphone: like i said.
19:54:04 -!- ^v has joined.
19:54:05 <Fiora> they're apparently using the quantum eraser or something like that too, but I think I understand about 2% of it
19:54:51 <Slereahphone> I understand more quantum gravity than quantum computings I'm afraid
19:57:49 -!- ^v has quit (Client Quit).
20:04:03 <Vorpal> What the hell, OpenGL acceleration randomly broke
20:07:02 -!- conehead has joined.
20:12:52 -!- muskrat has joined.
20:16:42 <Vorpal> Okay... Somehow the kernel headers were not installed
20:18:07 -!- nisstyre has quit (Disconnected by services).
20:18:21 -!- nisstyre has joined.
20:19:39 <Vorpal> Yeah, the year of the linux desktop is still some way away, there is too much weird breakage still happening for your average user.
20:20:24 <Bike> surprisingly the year of the linux desktop was actually 1739, we just missed it
20:20:29 <Vorpal> And weird quirks. Like if I mute the volume using the key on the keyboard, I have to manually open the pulse audio mixer to unmute.
20:20:34 -!- yours_truly has joined.
20:20:39 <Vorpal> Can't unmute it from the keyboard buttons
20:21:02 -!- muskrat has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:21:28 <Vorpal> When it works, it works spectacularly well though
20:22:13 <Vorpal> Oh and this is with debian stable. Not sure if ubuntu is more "user friendly" as it were
20:22:34 <Vorpal> And I am using a kernel from backports, so that probably caused part of the proble
20:27:09 -!- asie has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
20:29:17 -!- augur has joined.
20:31:31 -!- boily has quit (Quit: *FOOM*!).
20:31:34 -!- metasepia has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
20:39:26 <fizzie> I use some custom XMonad volume control bindings these days, after switching from the previous XMonad-in-Gnome-in-Ubuntu setup to a plainer XMonad-in-Debian one.
20:42:42 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
20:44:57 <kmc> yeah well I run XMonad on BARE METAL
20:45:14 <kmc> I even dunked my CPU in some hydroflouric acid so that the metal would be more bare
20:45:25 <Bike> i run xmonad on electrons i gathered and arranged myself
20:45:25 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:46:26 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
20:47:03 <olsner> all my xmonad electrons are volunteers, no forced labor in my window manager
20:49:15 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
20:49:31 <fizzie> "Selected video codec: ASCII/ANSI art [libavcodec]" apparently mplayer will gamely play also all .txt files if I tell it to play *.
20:54:21 <kmc> great if you want to watch a whole movie and then a split second of some warez group .nfo file
21:08:27 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:20:47 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
21:20:54 -!- mnoqy has joined.
21:28:03 <kmc> Servo crashes if you try to put two sets of umlauts on the same letter :<
21:28:05 <kmc> we're not metal enough
21:29:14 <JWinslow23> Stackbeat is AMAZING! I just don't know how it works. :\
21:31:23 <fizzie> It's one of those music synthesis things.
21:31:50 <JWinslow23> I need a more thorough explanation on the wiki.
21:32:11 <fizzie> Isn't its article quite thorough?
21:32:21 <FireFly> I think someone wrote a forth-inspired RPN thing for the music synthesis thing a year or two ago
21:32:53 <FireFly> a møøse once bit my sister.
21:34:20 <kmc> "9 SAN BRUNO - Cow Palace"
21:34:24 <kmc> is a thing that buses in SF often say
21:35:10 <coppro> fizzie: i got lessons in how to pronounce finnish yesterday
21:35:52 <fizzie> coppro: What on earth for?
21:35:58 <JWinslow23> When are sounds made, is what I don't get.
21:36:12 <JWinslow23> Are they made after the bitwise operations?
21:36:20 <fizzie> JWinslow23: Well, when a daddy sound and a mommy sound like each other very much...
21:37:25 <FireFly> fizzie: why wouldn't one receive lessons on how to pronounce finnish?
21:38:21 <coppro> it turns out you pronounce it a lot like finish
21:38:29 <fizzie> JWinslow23: If the given StackBeat program is represented by the function PROG, the generated sound is just kind of what you get from for (t = 0; t < N; t++) buffer[t] = PROG(t); play(buffer); kind of thing.
21:38:43 <coppro> it's halfway between the two really
21:40:12 <fizzie> JWinslow23: Just PCM audio samples. You know. Output sin(k*t) to make a single sine wave, and so on.
21:40:53 <fizzie> Open some audio file in Audacity or some other audio editor.
21:41:01 <fizzie> It'll show you the values.
21:41:25 <JWinslow23> And I can recreate it in StackBeat, right?
21:41:56 <fizzie> Well, in theory. The program might end up rather long for an exact reproduction.
21:44:51 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
21:46:19 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:46:58 <fizzie> You could start with a square wave, that's easy to do from bits.
21:47:00 <oerjan> ooh did anyone make an esolang 99 bottles that was the melody before
21:47:29 <fizzie> Try figuring out why 10:2#>1&120* is a tune one octave higher than 10:3#>1&120* for example.
21:47:58 <fizzie> (And similarly for 4, 5, ...)
21:53:42 -!- JWinslow23 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:57:15 -!- Bike has joined.
22:01:35 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortticat.
22:04:50 -!- nortticat has changed nick to hvidiecat.
22:05:17 -!- hvidiecat has changed nick to nortti.
22:06:05 -!- Slereahphone has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi).
22:08:29 <oerjan> darn i was getting used to girl genius updating early again.
22:11:39 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
22:11:50 <oerjan> i'm really wondering what about that view made agatha so shocked. educated guess: gil has filled his remaining empire with giant statues of her.
22:11:54 -!- S1 has joined.
22:12:41 <S1> Haven't been here for a while. Anyone on?
22:12:50 <kmc> `rwelcome S1
22:12:53 <HackEgo> S1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:14:56 <S1> What is your time zone kmc?
22:15:04 <kmc> America/Los_Angeles
22:15:26 * kmc is so pissed that it's not America/San_Francisco
22:15:30 <lambdabot> Local time for S1 is Thu Oct 24 00:15:29 2013
22:15:55 <S1> Didn't know one could do that
22:16:02 <kmc> @localtime kmc
22:16:05 <lambdabot> Local time for kmc is Wed Oct 23 15:16:02 2013
22:16:24 <S1> wow that's a difference
22:17:08 <S1> @localtime oerjan
22:17:08 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Thu Oct 24 00:17:08 2013
22:17:27 <S1> oerjan is in France, right?
22:17:40 <shachaf> kmc: well i'm in America/San_Francisco
22:17:42 * oerjan sidles scarily close to S1
22:17:59 <Fiora> kmc: is LA not good enough for you
22:18:02 <oerjan> je suis francais tre bien aussi
22:18:17 <kmc> Fiora: nope, sorry
22:18:21 <shachaf> presumably that's why you left
22:18:33 <kmc> @loerjantime
22:18:55 <shachaf> Los_Angeles is not good enough for anyone
22:18:56 <oerjan> S1: you might want to test a few other information-gathering methods.
22:18:57 <Fiora> my local smoggy city is insufficiently good :<
22:19:08 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
22:19:17 -!- muskrat has joined.
22:19:19 <S1> @listmodules
22:19:19 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap
22:19:19 <lambdabot> source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
22:19:28 <oerjan> (and i'm not talking about lambdabot)
22:19:33 <S1> How do I know what does what?
22:19:56 <kmc> @help yarr
22:20:12 <kmc> Fiora: I don't like cars :<
22:20:22 <Fiora> (sorry, I'm just teasing you xD)
22:20:49 <Taneb> The one thing I don't like about this game is that it doesn't really feel like a Pokemon game
22:20:54 <lambdabot> index <ident>. Returns the Haskell modules in which <ident> is defined
22:21:27 <oerjan> that's not very updated.
22:23:11 <lambdabot> Foreign.Marshal.Error, Foreign.Marshal, Foreign
22:23:16 <lambdabot> Control.Monad, Control.Monad.Reader, Control.Monad.Writer, Control.Monad.State, Control.Monad.RWS, Control.Monad.Identity, Control.Monad.Cont, Control.Monad.Error, Control.Monad.List, Data.Graph.
22:23:16 <lambdabot> Inductive.Query.ArtPoint, Data.Graph.Inductive.Query, Data.Graph.Inductive
22:23:49 <oerjan> i don't think that's what "defined" means, lambdabot
22:24:45 <shachaf> perhaps "defined" means "in scope"
22:24:51 <shachaf> as in "ERROR: x is not defined"
22:25:08 <oerjan> no, that's not what it means.
22:26:30 <Taneb> @index not#valid?name
22:26:55 <fizzie> Missing all the important operators there.
22:27:01 <fizzie> (Those were both real.)
22:27:36 <FireFly> Those read like lens operators
22:27:54 <oerjan> i don't think lens gets _quite_ that bad.
22:28:10 <oerjan> and the first one is a constructor.
22:28:59 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor `:$#$#$#:'
22:29:00 <Taneb> The worst in lens is something like <<</>=
22:29:38 <lambdabot> `<<<>=' (imported from Control.Lens),
22:29:46 <Taneb> (it's only in HEAD)
22:30:21 <fizzie> ^#->#? is from regexdot.
22:30:23 <lambdabot> (Monoid r, MonadState s m) => LensLike' ((,) r) s r -> r -> m r
22:30:24 <FireFly> I think lens needs a fish operator
22:30:37 <S1> Did y'all just create a new esolang?
22:30:44 <fizzie> (^#->#?) :: a -> RepetitionBounds -> Repeatable a
22:30:52 <FireFly> Yes, it's called "Haskell with lens"
22:30:53 <oerjan> S1: no, this is haskell's lens library.
22:31:15 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:31:30 <S1> yes, no, same reason, ok.
22:31:31 <oerjan> <<<>= looks insane, but it's supposedly logical. although i don't quite remember what the initial << means.
22:31:44 <S1> Should learn this lang
22:31:49 -!- augur has joined.
22:32:36 <FireFly> oerjan's response might've been more honest
22:33:00 <Taneb> oerjan, that means it gives you the value before it was changed
22:33:08 <oerjan> ok from the types i think << means to ... right.
22:33:09 <Taneb> = means it modifies in the State monad
22:33:16 <Taneb> <> means it's mappend
22:33:31 <fizzie> (<//><) has something to do with fish, right?
22:33:36 <lambdabot> (Monoid r, MonadState s m) => LensLike' ((,) r) s r -> r -> m r
22:33:50 <FireFly> fizzie: it's a fishy operator
22:33:52 <Taneb> Hmm, I ought to train my Pikachu some more
22:34:02 <oerjan> and if << gives you _before_ it was changed, just < gives after. i think.
22:34:18 <lexande> maybe hilighting on "train" isn't such a great idea...
22:34:44 <FireFly> What, are you that interested in railway discusisons?
22:34:51 <HackEgo> 328) <Phantom_Hoover> The system I kind of have in mind makes a flying train a natural consequence. \ 628) <oklopol> the point of a university is research and training new researchers. the point of the world is to enable this. \ 761) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more,
22:35:19 <HackEgo> 761) <itidus21> . o O ( (watches on from a distance) I just can't think that abstractly... or I don't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast i
22:35:58 <FireFly> Why are itidus21's quotes so insightful that they don't fit in a single line?
22:36:24 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:36:48 <FireFly> `run quote 761 | tail -c +200
22:36:50 <HackEgo> How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
22:36:59 <FireFly> `run quote 761 | tail -c +100
22:37:01 <HackEgo> 't want to. I'm more, there are 2 trains heading in opposite directions: what year were they built? How many windows do they have? Is anyone train surfing on them? Is Ringo Starr narrating this problem? ) [...] <itidus21> Do they serve french toast in the dining carriage?
22:40:37 * S1 drowns in text
22:40:38 -!- S1 has left.
22:40:55 -!- S1 has joined.
22:41:28 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:44:11 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
22:46:41 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:54:56 <shachaf> do you have /hilight exande\b
22:55:08 <shachaf> hmm, that would match on alexande et al.
22:55:26 <lexande> i actually hilight on alexande anyway
22:55:26 <kmc> <//>< fishy brackets ><\\>
22:56:14 <lexande> i just have /hilight lexande
23:00:10 <fizzie> I have a "/hilight -mask -level quits fungot!*@*" but it doesn't seem to work.
23:00:10 <fungot> fizzie: well " would think so", "
23:00:39 <fizzie> fungot: Well if you're so clever, why don't you tell me how to write it.
23:00:39 <fungot> fizzie: the numbers could still be useful for see if something is said on reddit, it must be considered as a crime... i am
23:01:02 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
23:08:04 -!- augur has joined.
23:12:42 -!- S1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
23:13:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:18:10 -!- Bike has joined.
23:39:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:45:20 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: taking the quotient by a group probably means you have an action of the group, and the equivalence classes are whatever points are mapped to each other by the group action.
23:46:44 <oerjan> and then you use the usual quotient topology on that if you have one on the original space.
23:47:47 <oerjan> indeed that would seem to be a problem. but there is probably an obvious one?
23:48:10 * oerjan isn't overly well-acquainted with 3-spheres.