00:01:23 <kmc> maybe all prehistoric C implementations had sizeof(int) == sizeof(void*)
00:01:42 <kmc> or used register calling convention and therefore were more flexible
00:04:24 -!- Chef has joined.
00:05:48 <oerjan> Koen_: it's not quite that bad http://c-faq.com/ansi/argpromos.html
00:07:20 <oerjan> also this also applies to printf arguments http://c-faq.com/varargs/promos.html
00:07:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:07:24 <Koen_> It is arguably much safer to avoid ``narrow'' (char, short int, and float) function arguments and return types altogether.
00:07:50 <Koen_> so basically just use ints
00:08:04 <Koen_> (and doubles but who needs them)
00:08:07 -!- Slereah has joined.
00:08:32 -!- Slereah has quit (Client Quit).
00:11:09 <Koen_> now I want to try writing prototypes for printf here and there
00:13:04 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:21:33 -!- Tod-Autojoined2 has changed nick to TodPunk.
00:24:12 <zzo38> class (Eq s, SetType__ s) => SetType s where { type SetOf s :: *; ... }; constructSetType :: forall a c. (forall b. SetType b => SetOf b -> (b -> c) -> a) -> [c] -> a; ... Do you expect things like this is OK?
00:32:30 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
00:35:33 <oerjan> i think today's picture in wikipedia needs a nsfl warning.
00:37:12 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:37:29 <elliott> smallpox is kind of not safe for life, yeah.
00:38:28 <kmc> hey smallpox virus is life too
00:38:32 <kmc> (lets argue about that now)
00:38:33 <kmc> also, yikes
00:38:44 <oerjan> i am old enough to have been vaccinated, i think.
00:39:22 <kmc> vaccines are pretty cool
00:39:55 <Bike> wow, i just noticed that photo was taken barely two years after the war
00:40:05 <kmc> i should get more of them
00:40:10 <pikhq> I don't *think* I've been vaccinated for smallpox. But when I was young my dad was in the Army, and so we were overseas, so... maybe?
00:40:50 <Fiora> I think I'm old enough that I wasn't vaccinated for chicken pox at least? ^^;
00:41:12 <pikhq> Yeah, I wasn't vaccinated for chicken pox either.
00:41:47 <coppro> I just got chicken pox. Does that count?
00:42:02 <Bike> i got it and my parents marketed me to their social circle as spreading it. Only 90s Kidz Remember
00:43:06 <oerjan> i've had chicken pox. when i was 18.
00:43:26 <Fiora> I think I must have been like 10
00:43:35 <oerjan> i think i have scars in my face that are from it.
00:44:35 <oerjan> also i have a scar on my shoulder which is from some vaccine, perhaps the smallpox one?
00:46:49 <pikhq> Closest to a smallpox vaccine I *know* I've been is that I've been near someone with cowpox.
00:50:34 <Koen_> is $ in haskell just a prefix-notation parenthese for function application?
00:51:19 <zzo38> Actually $ in Haskell is the infix form of id, but specialized for function application
00:51:45 <Bike> it just has the lowest associativity because i dunno screw parens.
01:00:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:00:37 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:03:53 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: The struct held his beloved integer in his strong, protecting arms, his eyes like sapphire orbs staring into her own. "W-will you... Will you union me?").
01:13:20 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Quit: Uguubee111118).
01:15:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
01:16:39 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
01:21:54 -!- myndzi has changed nick to myndzi`.
01:22:26 -!- myndzi` has changed nick to myndzi.
01:23:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
01:27:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
01:34:24 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/jiGA
01:53:51 <zzo38> Is this Haskell program OK?
02:07:44 <kmc> isthishaskellprogramok.com
02:08:03 <kmc> zzo38: do you not like layout syntax?
02:08:15 <Bike> YES (humorous subtitle)
02:08:38 <kmc> howfuckedismyhaskellprogram.com
02:09:22 <kmc> that really should say "=ω" not "=∞" don't you think
02:09:28 * kmc fixes it using Element Inspector
02:09:48 <zzo38> kmc: I personally don't like layout syntax (and a few other people also don't like).
02:10:11 <shachaf> kmc: does your Element Inspector have a save button
02:10:29 <kmc> zzo38: why not?
02:10:36 <kmc> the Firefox OS dev tools do, though
02:10:48 <kmc> (which is just the Firefox element inspector thing)
02:10:59 <Bike> «onclick="f(this); return false"»
02:11:04 <Bike> now what's this then
02:11:05 <zzo38> kmc: I don't really know how to explain, but you can look up some reasons why some people don't like it, at least.
02:11:09 <kmc> f(this) indeed
02:11:44 <zzo38> When I ask about this Haskell program, I mean about its use for the purpose I intended to use it for.
02:12:20 <Bike> what is the purpose you intended to use it for
02:14:07 <zzo38> Bike: Something like a constructor Graph :: forall x y. SetType x => SetOf x -> (x -> y) -> (x -> x -> Bool) -> Graph y; which isn't really a correct definition of a graph, but hopefully can explain clearly enough the use I intended?
02:14:36 <Bike> i didn't read it. just thought maybe that would help kmcists.
02:15:18 <zzo38> Do you understand what I mean now, at least?
02:15:18 <Bike> is x -> x -> Bool the "this is an edge" checker? what's y for?
02:15:31 <zzo38> Bike: The y is in case the nodes have labels attached.
02:15:49 <zzo38> (If they don't then y would just be ())
02:16:14 <Bike> i don't understand why a graph isn't just a set of vertices and a set of edges
02:16:27 <shachaf> data Graph e v = Graph (e -> v) (e -> v)
02:17:23 <Bike> time to understand shachaf's definition: approximately 40 seconds
02:17:27 <zzo38> But, what I mean is if you want to make up such a "unique set" which is only this useful
02:17:44 <zzo38> Bike: I can understand more easily though, in a few seconds
02:17:53 <zzo38> copumpkin: What is that, then?
02:17:55 <Bike> did you just call me stupid
02:17:58 <zzo38> Yours I don't know
02:18:15 <zzo38> Bike: No, I just meant that I realized this specific purpose faster at this specific time.
02:18:21 <shachaf> Bike: Well, mine is a different sort of graph, with multiple edges and loops and so on.
02:18:40 <Bike> i saw an article in a bio journal about hypergraphs the other day. that was odd
02:19:01 <shachaf> did you know it's just a functor from the category •⇉• to Set
02:19:04 <copumpkin> zzo38: it's a generalized relation, covering all sorts of odd graphs
02:19:05 <zzo38> copumpkin: Your definition I do not understand. Do you explain it?
02:19:10 <shachaf> and the natural transformations are graph homomorphisms
02:19:16 <zzo38> I don't know the notation.
02:19:31 <Bike> why, another concept is just a functor? wow. wow. everything is explained. everything is clear now
02:19:42 <copumpkin> well, it is, but not for computation
02:19:54 <zzo38> copumpkin: But what is "Set" here then? I do not understand this dependent types very well.
02:20:03 <shachaf> zzo38: Set is like * in Haskell (I assume)
02:20:17 <copumpkin> so for every pair of values of that type
02:20:31 <copumpkin> which may be empty (in which case there's no edge)
02:20:53 <copumpkin> you could have arbitrary values living in the resulting type
02:21:01 <copumpkin> so it might have more than one edge
02:21:21 <copumpkin> you can define a simple type on top of that that takes the transitive closure, or reflexive transitive closure
02:21:40 <copumpkin> the latter also being "the free category of a graph"
02:22:41 <shachaf> Bike: should i write that as ((Bool,e) -> v) or as (e -> Bool -> v)
02:22:53 <shachaf> Bike: or as (e -> (v,v)) "that would be too simple"
02:23:05 <Bike> iunno, the original was cute.
02:23:54 <Bike> i'm not used to having edges as their own thing. maybe that's it.
02:24:05 <zzo38> copumpkin: OK, but I do not quite understand how you would have values of a type produce another type like that, it doesn't sense to me quite a lot though.
02:24:32 <Bike> "clearly i need to deal with infinite graphs more often"
02:24:50 <Bike> are nonlinear dynamications functors
02:24:51 <shachaf> the other day a bus driver made the asl sign for "no" and i understood
02:25:02 <Bike> am i a functor
02:25:17 <Bike> i am barbed wire
02:25:39 <zzo38> I tried reading about depending type but I don't quite understand it. I have read a Haskell library that says it defines a "dependent sum type" and I can understand that library at least, but not what it has anything to do with dependent types. Actually when I tried to explain when I was asking how to make this program I made I was told about dependent types too, which I don't know.
02:25:58 <zzo38> copumpkin: What is it called, the things that my program is defining, though?
02:26:29 <copumpkin> dependent sum types can be quite confusing
02:26:51 <shachaf> copumpkin: sum types r confusing, other types less so
02:27:14 <zzo38> copumpkin: Well, I can understand the Haskell library which says dependent sum types, even though I am not understanding the dependent sum types itself.
02:28:48 <zzo38> What I tried to define is that a value contained in some datatype is kind of like another type and a set of values in that type, where the only thing done on the values is check if it is equal to another one, and pass to a function that expects it.
02:29:08 <zzo38> It isn't really making up a new type each time, but it fakes it.
02:29:29 <copumpkin> zzo38: a dependent sum type is like a pair in haskell, where the type of the second half can refer to the value of the first half
02:29:36 <copumpkin> it's a strange concept if you're not used to it
02:29:52 <shachaf> copumpkin: why aren't there things that map between natural transformations
02:29:56 <zzo38> I was also refered to reflection, which also tries to fake to make up a type but uses unsafeCoerce. My program does not involve unsafeCoerce.
02:30:08 <zzo38> copumpkin: Well, I know that, because I have read that program, and that is what it is.
02:30:11 <copumpkin> shachaf: they exist, but they're unnatural and we don't talk about them
02:30:22 <Bike> a functor on the category of small natural transformations
02:30:30 <zzo38> Such things are done in Haskell easily enough anyways, using forall, type parameters, and other stuff like that.
02:30:51 <shachaf> Bike: is that a sequence of words that makes sense or just a sequence of words
02:30:59 <Bike> well consider the speaker
02:31:07 <Bike> an endofunctor. endomonoid. coexofunctor
02:31:17 <shachaf> endonote: don't listen to Bike
02:31:58 <Bike> imo the worst bike
02:33:02 <shachaf> imo i've ridden some p. bad bikes recently
02:34:15 <zzo38> copumpkin: Do you think my program does correctly what I intended though, at least?
02:36:36 <Sgeo> :/ #chicken is too quiet
02:36:57 <copumpkin> zzo38: not sure! what did you intend?
02:37:15 <Bike> he already answered that a while up.
02:37:21 <Sgeo> kmc: I wonder if you would like explicit-renaming/implicit-renaming macros
02:37:47 <Sgeo> There's no DSL, you write a function that receives a few functions that aid in hygiene
02:37:51 <Bike> what are your thoughts on yaoi
02:37:53 <Sgeo> So you're writing in pure Scheme
02:38:19 <copumpkin> Bike: I looked and didn't understand
02:38:26 <Bike> well, i didn't either
02:38:34 <Bike> low standard though
02:38:38 <zzo38> copumpkin: I can try to explain, perhaps, as, the function makes up a new set of its own type (actually Int, although it pretends it is a new type), and where values of this type can only be compared for equality.
02:39:54 <zzo38> Is this explanation good enough?
02:41:04 <zzo38> My example with the Graph constructor is one example (which doesn't actually define a graph though, and isn't really quite intended to anyways), but it is example of how it might be used, I mean.
02:41:25 <copumpkin> it's odd how a superclass refers to its subclass in methods
02:42:45 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose such thing is odd, but it does work.
02:42:56 <copumpkin> I don't doubt it, just trying to make sense of it
02:43:15 <zzo38> (The SetType__ class is private, so that you can never use it)
02:43:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:45:22 <zzo38> The only type that has an instance is also private, meaning that values of such a type are only used in a polymorphic type signature
02:45:45 <copumpkin> so you force people to only use the class interface
02:47:05 <zzo38> Although the point is also that you cannot check for type equality either, as if every call to emptySetOf and so on are of a different type which nobody knows.
02:48:45 <copumpkin> I think it makes sense, although it might pay to figure out how to make your exposed Set interface take the "contents" parameter directly
02:49:08 <Sgeo> Is it just me or is this paper backwards
02:49:13 <Sgeo> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download;jsessionid=E9CB45AD79DE7268512C8A60D0C1A0BB?doi=10.1.1.53.5184&rep=rep1&type=pdf
02:49:53 <copumpkin> oh wait, I was standing on my head
02:50:46 <shachaf> Just print it in this order and it'll be fine.
02:51:25 <zzo38> Maybe you can configure the printer driver to work with it
02:51:31 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or is it saying that er macros are limited?
02:52:53 <zzo38> copumpkin: I think this program I made up in there not quite complete, since a few operations are missing, isn't it?
02:53:20 <zzo38> hich things can be constructed using only the exported interfaces and which cannot be?
02:53:47 <Bike> Sgeo: plz to link to the actual citeseer page instead of a pdf.
02:55:13 <Sgeo> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.53.5184
02:55:51 -!- cybercortex has joined.
02:55:55 -!- conehead has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
02:56:08 <shachaf> (it won't help but i might as well ask)
02:56:40 <Bike> I dunno. I still don't get hygenic macros at all. Maybe I should ask around #scheme for programs that really need them.
02:58:12 <Sgeo> I want to recommend trying to understand syntax-case, but syntax-case comes with unneeded extra sugar called syntax-case that might hinder understanding
02:58:28 <Bike> Well I think i get the basic idea of syntax case.
02:59:04 -!- cybercortex2 has joined.
03:00:15 -!- cybercortex has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:01:40 <Sgeo> Just to clarify: syntax-case and not syntax-rules? syntax-case is the more complicated one that allows breaking hygiene
03:02:09 <Bike> Yeah, you specify what symbols are supposed to be literal and which ones aren't, right.
03:02:18 -!- cybercortex has joined.
03:03:39 -!- cybercortex2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
03:03:45 <Sgeo> syntax-rules allows that too, but syntax-case is more flexible than that. And easily allows arbitrary Scheme computations
03:04:02 <zzo38> My other (unrelated) question was how to make pattern matching with rosetrees, in SQL or in a C program that can be export functions to use with SQL.
03:04:16 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up such pattern matching?
03:04:27 <Bike> ok, but "it allows what the other thing is based on" is kind of... i don't really care, you know what i mean?
03:06:03 -!- cybercortex2 has joined.
03:06:04 <zzo38> What I can think of is there will be the kind of patterns: A(P) A(* A(P) *) A(P *) ? where A is atom and P is a list of zero or more patterns.
03:06:30 <zzo38> If this is kind of patterns I would need, how would it be doing, so that you can match and replacement?
03:07:06 -!- cybercortex has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:07:45 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nyit).
03:08:02 <Sgeo> Bike: just trying to ascertain which one it is you know >.>
03:08:19 <Bike> i don't really know either one that well, if that isn't obvious.
03:14:27 -!- cybercortex has joined.
03:14:40 -!- cybercortex has quit (Client Quit).
03:14:48 -!- cybercortex2 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
03:17:03 <shachaf> kmc: Do you think persistent data structures are generally not very effective without a GC?
03:21:30 <kmc> I don't have the experience to say, really
03:21:33 <kmc> it seems like they wouldn't be
03:22:57 <shachaf> Hmm, are there obvious ways to make a GC more efficient if you don't care about finding cycles?
03:23:25 <kmc> is only sometimes more efficient
03:23:52 <kmc> i can come up with a few reasons that it would kill performance for a persistent concurrent hash trie or the like
03:23:55 <kmc> but i dunno
03:23:59 <kmc> haven't tried it
03:24:12 <Bike> i don't doubt it. it's just the obvious for cyclefucking gc :p
03:24:21 * kmc made an accidental pun there
03:24:35 <kmc> Bike: you would be interested in cyclefucking wouldn't you
03:24:49 <Bike> he's on a roll today folks
03:24:54 <shachaf> my gc can find cycles but not bicycles
03:24:56 <kmc> LIKE A BICYCLE
03:24:57 <Bike> much like me! hyuk hyuk. my brakes are out, i'm going to die
03:25:09 <zzo38> Do you know anything about pattern matching rose trees in general?
03:25:16 <kmc> zzo38: in SQL?
03:25:52 <Bike> i don't know what a rose tree is, other than that it is probably depicted in the hit japanese cartoon show, Shōjo Kakumei Utena
03:25:55 <shachaf> Maybe zzo38 means Proof General.
03:26:10 <shachaf> i was riding a bicycle without working brakes recently
03:26:17 <Bike> taht's dangerous
03:27:28 <kmc> "Apparently many of you missed it. I took a screenshot of all unauthenticated VNC servers on IPv4. It took 16 minutes. http://results.survey.tx.ai"
03:27:29 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, in SQL, although it could be in C and then export the function to SQL. (It is operating on SQL data structures however.)
03:27:43 <zzo38> (Rose tree is what in Haskell would be (Cofree []), although this program is C)
03:27:54 <Bike> kmc: it's cool how we're all doomed
03:28:29 <shachaf> did you see conal's talk on parallel scans
03:28:33 <Bike> the links are broken :(
03:33:32 <Sgeo> shachaf: you had a halting problem?
03:33:42 <Sgeo> [even my humor is stolen]
03:34:08 <Fiora> it was just taken down?
03:34:27 <Bike> looks up to me
03:34:28 <kmc> i see screenshots on http://results.survey.tx.ai/216.html
03:34:33 <Bike> Oh, no, there it goes.
03:34:59 <kmc> no porn yet
03:35:22 <kmc> http://a0cb98c247b3db5ffaba-2460f3ea0996e8d440cbab5ff57046e7.r23.cf2.rackcdn.com/216.230.224.203_5903.jpg
03:36:15 <kmc> http://a0cb98c247b3db5ffaba-2460f3ea0996e8d440cbab5ff57046e7.r23.cf2.rackcdn.com/216.200.140.167_5900.jpg
03:36:31 <Sgeo> THat icon looks like ActiveTcl... I assume it's actually ActivePerl
03:43:51 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
03:51:23 * Sgeo mutters about dead scheme communities
03:54:40 <kmc> (is-not (that-which-can (eternal lie)) dead)
04:07:06 <Sgeo> "One of my favorite things about Chicken Scheme is ir-macro-transformer. I find it to be the most intuitive hygienic macro system yet (using it isn't any more complicated than the traditional unhygienic define-macro)."
04:07:22 <Sgeo> Of course, that simplicity may come at a cost
04:10:17 <Sgeo> implicit renaming
04:10:47 <zzo38> Can Scheme make "law of excluded middle" continuations? You can define that and ordinary continuations in terms of each other (at least in Haskell you can).
04:10:50 <Sgeo> Symbols that are returned are automatically renamed, unless you call inject on them (inject being a function supplied to the transformer along with the form)
04:11:36 <zzo38> lemCC = callCC (return . Right . (<=< return . Left)); callCC x = lemCC >>= either return x;
04:13:19 <Sgeo> Cont monad continuations are almost delimited continuations. You can build delimited continuations in standard Scheme with call/cc and a bit of mutable state, although it's horrible. Some Schemes and Schemelike systems also provide delimited continuations natively
04:13:49 <Sgeo> That doesn't mean I understand your code, or what a "law of excluded middle" continuation is, just that I'm pretty sure the answer is 'yes'
04:24:45 <shachaf> Sgeo: It means a thing that gives you a continuation when you call it. Then when you call the continuation with a value, it gives you that value.
04:30:45 <Sgeo> I think if I want the name of a bare input symbol to an IR-based macro... I can't get it
04:31:05 <Sgeo> I can compare against known symbols, but I don't think I can just easily convert to a string
04:31:36 <Sgeo> Because all the symbols come in 'renamed'
04:32:13 -!- trout has changed nick to variable.
04:36:38 -!- contrapumpkin has joined.
04:36:39 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:48:21 -!- Chef has quit (Quit: Rooms • iPhone IRC Client • http://www.roomsapp.mobi).
04:49:13 <Sgeo> http://paste.call-cc.org/paste?id=fd5f78e7052159d4df1dfed5cbec51d8e7017598
04:51:21 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 1337 seconds).
05:26:37 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
05:27:52 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
05:28:39 -!- Taneb has joined.
05:28:56 -!- carado has joined.
05:30:36 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
05:31:48 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
05:32:19 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
05:38:15 <Taneb> I can't get 4oD to work
05:38:22 <Taneb> So I can't watch Agents of SHIELD
05:42:58 -!- asie has joined.
05:46:05 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
05:56:43 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
05:56:44 <Sgeo> Hmm... this thing about Chicken just recommended autoconf and automake
05:56:51 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just run far, far away
05:57:10 <Taneb> Will autoconf and automake help me watch Agents of SHIELD
05:58:51 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
05:59:44 <Sgeo> It's theoretically possible for at least some hypothetical problems preventing 4oD access
06:01:15 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
06:08:33 <mnoqy> what is agents of shield. is it an anime
06:09:05 <Taneb> It's about some agents of shield
06:09:15 <Taneb> It's made by disney
06:10:49 <Bike> why the fuck is everyone talking about anime now
06:13:47 <Taneb> Also I'm on a team for a CTF competition Detica is running today
06:14:48 -!- Bike has quit (Quit: Reconnecting).
06:15:02 -!- Bike has joined.
06:21:27 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
06:23:25 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
06:27:32 <Bike> https://twitter.com/grammarware/status/393871325338411009/photo/1 this is dumb but still great, somehow.
06:28:35 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 259 seconds).
06:34:26 <Bike> Fiora: This ECDSA paper introduces ten acronyms on the first page.
06:36:59 -!- FreeFull has joined.
06:41:26 -!- shikhin has joined.
06:57:56 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
07:00:46 <FreeFull> http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/programs/tpk.i
07:02:43 <Bike> HERE I USE A SLICK TRICK
07:03:58 <FreeFull> PLEASE NOTIFY THE AUTHOR IF YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS; BUT PLEASE DON'T SEND EMAIL
07:34:36 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
07:38:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
07:38:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
07:39:00 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
07:46:11 -!- asie has joined.
07:46:30 -!- asie has quit (Excess Flood).
07:52:48 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
07:57:16 -!- shikhin has joined.
08:01:30 -!- Slereah has joined.
08:03:22 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
08:04:28 <Sgeo> The SRFI process specifies HTML 3.2
08:05:19 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:12:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
08:18:22 -!- mnoqy has joined.
08:24:00 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
08:26:10 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
08:27:45 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
08:39:22 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Quit: Uguubee111118).
08:41:01 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
08:41:55 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
08:42:41 -!- yorick has joined.
08:44:55 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
09:09:20 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
09:12:27 -!- shikhin__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
09:40:20 -!- asie has joined.
09:55:57 <fizzie> @tell Koen_ You can pass other types without a prototype. You can't pass a char, a short or a float because the default arugment promotions convert those to an int, an int and a double, respectively, in absence of a prototype.
09:56:45 <fizzie> @tell Koen_ If it's any other type, you can receive it as-is in a function without a prototype. (Of course you need to make sure it is exactly the type the function expects, because no implicit conversions are done.)
09:57:17 <fizzie> @tell Koen_ Oh, I didn't notice oerjan's links. Sowwy.
09:57:32 <fizzie> The dangers of incomplete logreading.
10:00:47 <Slereah> So I am thinking of going back on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp
10:01:08 <Slereah> I want all (functional) operators to be compatible in a pinch
10:01:29 <Slereah> Mostly by giving them an equivalent lambda version
10:01:58 <Slereah> But if possible I also want to make an equivalence between the numbers and lists
10:02:11 <Slereah> Like 0 being the empty list or NIL, I dunno
10:02:33 <Slereah> But in that case, that equivalent must be the same as the one with the lambda expressions
10:02:53 <Slereah> With 0 = ^x^y.y, and so on
10:03:07 <Slereah> And I'm not sure which construction to pick
10:03:45 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
10:18:48 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
10:19:46 -!- asie has joined.
10:48:38 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
10:49:08 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
10:52:50 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
10:53:41 -!- FreeFull has joined.
10:59:46 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Operation timed out).
11:03:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
11:05:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
11:21:21 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
11:23:19 -!- nooodl__ has joined.
11:26:43 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
11:32:21 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
11:45:59 -!- Bainos has joined.
11:49:28 -!- asie has joined.
11:54:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
11:55:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
12:00:58 -!- Chef has joined.
12:03:44 -!- Chef has quit (Client Quit).
12:15:38 <Phantom__Hoover> http://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/1p83at/turing_machine_vs_human_mind/
12:22:26 -!- Bainos has left.
12:25:31 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
12:32:45 -!- mnoqy has joined.
12:43:26 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:47:52 -!- asie has joined.
13:02:41 <oklofok> which irc clients do people usually use with mac
13:03:05 <nortti> I used XChat-aqua and ircII
13:06:50 -!- nooodl__ has changed nick to nooodl.
13:14:31 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
13:16:58 -!- oerjan has joined.
13:18:59 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
13:19:58 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
13:27:08 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
13:40:50 -!- MindlessDrone has joined.
13:42:07 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
13:49:35 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
13:55:35 -!- Koen_ has joined.
14:04:11 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
14:04:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
14:11:31 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
14:14:34 <fizzie> oklofok: Ircle was quite popular, if you mean pre-X MacOS.
14:14:56 <fizzie> oklofok: As for current, I've heard of both Limechat and Colloquy.
14:20:12 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
14:20:14 <Phantom___Hoover> supposing i have an infinite-dimensional vector space V with basis e_i and some T \in V* such that T(e_i) = 1
14:20:53 <fizzie> Sounds like a setup for a "your mom" joke.
14:21:32 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
14:21:46 <Phantom___Hoover> then by linearity T(sum of e_i) = sum of T(e_i), which is an infinite sum of 1s
14:22:05 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
14:22:56 <mnoqy> you can't push the T into the infinite sum just with linearity
14:24:00 <mnoqy> i'll check out if the rest of it makes sense
14:26:25 <mnoqy> ahh there's also the matter if the sum of e_i is even an element of V
14:28:37 <mnoqy> just since the vector space &c axioms only require closure &c under finite sums (usually stated in terms of binary sums) and as with lots of things it doesn't generalize very nicely to infinities. i'd have to think a bit more if i wanted to say anything useful
14:29:13 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
14:31:26 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
14:36:22 <mnoqy> example: if you're dealing with, say, functions N->R with the obvious vector space structure, the set {e_i : e(i) = 1; e(j) = 0 for i \neq j} isn't a basis. that's a basis for the subspace of "finitely supported" functions. and the sum of all the basis elements isn't a member of that space. since linear combinations are finite sums of scalar multiples of vectors.
14:37:34 <mnoqy> woops i messed up my explanation structure there oh well
14:38:06 <Phantom_Hoover> would've helped if they'd thought to actually mention infinite-dimensional spaces before springing it on us in an assignment
14:39:33 -!- ^v has joined.
14:44:42 <mnoqy> infinite dimensional spaces are like finite dimensional spaces except sometimes you need the axiom of choice to find a basis
14:45:33 <Phantom_Hoover> like if you define linear combinations with a sum over a set of indices you run into exactly this problem
14:52:55 <nooodl> remember how my maths class taught matrices before vectors. or any linear algebra. they're just introduced as magic rectangles of numbers,
14:58:03 <mroman> the only thing I know about matrices is
14:58:10 <mroman> that you always forget how to multiply them
15:02:52 <mnoqy> i didnt understand matrices until i learned that theyre just a way of representing linear transformations in terms of som bases. then i understood them. i also never really ever had to do much in the way of computations on them so
15:03:54 <oklofok> Phantom_Hoover: sum of e_i is not an element of the vector space
15:04:14 <oklofok> although apparently you were answered already
15:04:24 <mroman> *that's* when you understood them?
15:05:13 <oklofok> but note that there's not even a question of whether "sum of e_i" is an element, it doesn't even mean anything a priori
15:05:45 <mroman> I'm not even sure if all matrices represent linear transformations
15:06:15 <mroman> I though't that's only a sub space
15:06:36 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, no, all matrices represent linear transformations
15:07:54 <mroman> which would mean that not all linear transformations are reversible?
15:09:26 -!- shikhin__ has joined.
15:11:58 <mroman> since we're already at match
15:12:33 <mroman> Does for any proof that gives an example (or counter-example) as a proof
15:12:39 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
15:12:44 <mroman> exist a formal proof that does not rely on an example?
15:14:14 <mroman> I.e. a counter-example shows, that a certain assumption does not hold for all cases
15:14:19 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
15:14:19 <mroman> (and therefore disproves it)
15:14:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:14:54 <Phantom__Hoover> that's like the opposite of what people normally try to do
15:15:07 <mroman> but an example does not describe the exact reason why it does not hold.
15:15:41 <mnoqy> the burden of explanation is on whoever's writing the proof
15:16:06 <mroman> it does not hold because a counter-example was found, yes
15:16:54 <mroman> but that doesn't mean that you can describe when exactly the assumption does not hold
15:17:48 <Phantom__Hoover> so you want a way to construct all possible counterexamples
15:18:21 <mroman> or at least an algorithm that can state about any given input if it is a counter example
15:19:03 <mroman> which is roughly the same :)
15:19:33 <Phantom__Hoover> that algorithm consists of "check if the example satisfies whatever predicate you're concerned with"
15:19:48 <mnoqy> but what if that's undecidable??????? what then
15:19:48 <mroman> i.e. show that sin(x) + sin(f(x)) is not peridioc for all f
15:19:59 <mroman> Counter example: sin(x) + sin(sqrt(x))
15:21:07 <mroman> that would at least be an answer to if such an algorithm exists for all proofs :)
15:21:10 <Phantom__Hoover> yes, the algorithm here consists of "determine whether sin(x) + sin(f(x)) is periodic"
15:21:38 <mroman> I can prove that this is wrong by giving a counter example
15:21:55 <mroman> but that does not mean, that I can really prove it for all f
15:22:11 <mroman> all I know is, that it is wrong without knowing WHY it is wrong.
15:22:14 <mnoqy> i don't get what you're getting at
15:22:43 <Phantom__Hoover> it's wrong because there exists f such that sin(x) + sin(f(x)) isn't periodic
15:23:17 <mroman> But I have no way of telling that for any given f
15:23:54 <mroman> because I don't have an algorithm which would solve that problem
15:24:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
15:24:28 -!- shikhin__ has changed nick to shikhin.
15:24:46 <Phantom__Hoover> whether it's true for arbitrary f is meaningless as far as the truth of the universally qualified statement is concerned; it suffices to know that it is not true for all f
15:25:10 <mroman> Phantom__Hoover: That's true.
15:25:56 <Phantom__Hoover> if you're using intuitionistic logic or whatever you actually need to specify an algorithm anyway
15:27:04 <mroman> my opinion is, that a more precise proof would specify the exact properties f must have in order to make the statement wrong
15:27:17 -!- conehead has joined.
15:27:40 <mroman> an algorithm that produces counter examples.
15:29:38 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
15:30:49 <Phantom___Hoover> basically your notion of a 'precise' proof is extremely limited and doesn't really give much meaningful insight in the relatively few cases where it even exists
15:31:39 <mroman> There's the proof "does it hold for all f"
15:31:51 <mroman> and there's the decision problem "does it hold for this given f"
15:32:06 <mroman> and a counter example doesn't solve the second one
15:32:35 <mnoqy> ok i give up her'es the answer
15:32:55 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
15:33:11 <mroman> I just asked a question
15:33:24 <mnoqy> and the answer is "no". does that help
15:33:35 <mroman> Does an algorithm that would solve the second example exist if a counter example exists?
15:34:42 <mroman> mnoqy: Yes. That answers my question :)
15:34:47 <oklofok> "<mroman> I'm not even sure if all matrices represent linear transformations" they are exactly the linear transformations (in the finite-dimensional case, otherwise i don't know what you mean by matrix)
15:35:20 <oklofok> "mroman> which would mean that not all linear transformations are reversible?" the map where everything goes to 0 is trivially linear
15:36:36 <mroman> Projection matrices are linear but not always reversible
15:36:51 <mroman> i.e projection from R^n to R^(n-1)
15:38:35 <mroman> and I don't know anything about infinite-dimensional stuff anyway
15:39:41 <mroman> unless it is about discrete mathematics
15:39:48 <mroman> then I might propose that they don't exist anyway
15:42:54 <oklofok> life sort of sucks if you don't believe in infinite things
15:44:04 <oklofok> all the best math only works if you do
15:47:01 <mroman> I don't know math that well anyway
15:49:10 <mroman> it's still better than physics
15:49:47 <mroman> because that would make sense which english does not
15:50:11 <mroman> physicist was correct.
15:51:11 <mroman> they just don't add up to the real world.
15:51:41 <mnoqy> isn;t modeling the real world kind of what science is about
15:51:53 <mroman> if you're a single mass point
15:52:26 <mroman> or your electrical wires are not too close to each other
15:52:31 <mroman> then you suddenly need new models
15:52:57 <mroman> that's what it's about, yes
15:53:10 <mnoqy> thankfully their models are good enough to get us ipads and flights to the moon
15:53:10 <mroman> I can't understand even simple models
15:53:23 <mroman> force there means force there
15:53:34 -!- nooodl_ has joined.
15:53:38 <oklofok> "force there means force there"
15:53:49 <mroman> if theres force a, then there exists its counter-force -a
15:54:18 <mroman> every force has an equal opposite force?
15:54:35 <oklofok> oh. are you mad at the world for having this law or the physicists for noticing it?
15:54:57 <mroman> it don't make sense to me
15:55:13 <oklofok> oh right this was about making sense
15:55:27 <mroman> e.g. why those forces don't cancel each other out
15:55:34 <oklofok> they apply to different things
15:55:44 <mroman> because they're not acting on the same things
15:55:53 <oklofok> the law is that when a force a is applied to some object, then some other object necessarily gets force -a
15:56:00 <mroman> if you apply force to something else
15:56:07 <mroman> then that must have an opposite force too
15:56:34 <mroman> e.g. if gas exhaust pushes your spaceship away
15:57:00 <oklofok> then your spaceship also pushes the gas exhaust away
15:57:15 <mroman> and that gas must go somewhere
15:57:15 <oklofok> isn't that natural and obvious
15:57:19 <mroman> and push something else away
15:57:28 -!- nooodl has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
15:57:48 <oklofok> if gas particles are moving in some direction, there's no "force" involved
15:57:53 <mroman> at least if you were still in the atmosphere
15:57:57 <mroman> then you'd push away air
15:58:01 <oklofok> (except gravity between them)
15:58:12 <mroman> and if you push away air, that air pushes away something else
15:58:17 <mroman> and everytime you push something away
15:58:24 <mroman> something pushes in the opposite direction
15:58:30 <mroman> or something like that
15:58:50 <mroman> if everything pushes everything
16:00:01 <oklofok> but everything doesn't push everything at once
16:00:04 <mroman> I can apply those models
16:00:16 <mroman> because if a Physicist tells me to use them
16:00:22 <mroman> I assume he knows what he's doing
16:00:31 <oklofok> particles move about, and every now and then they get close enough that they bounce off of each other
16:00:40 <mroman> I just have no idea why the model is
16:01:08 <mroman> e.g. why does the third law exist
16:02:05 <mroman> and that's just the simple stuff
16:02:14 <mroman> it gets even weirder for electrical stuff
16:02:58 <mroman> which is mostly due to it being taught wrong
16:03:11 <mroman> like: "uhm.. it's like water flowing in pipes"
16:03:45 <oklofok> are you 5 or why do you find this stuff weird
16:04:02 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:04:27 <oklofok> or do you not have a corporeal body
16:06:16 <oklofok> we're making some stuff in the oven, and apparently we've been waiting for 30 minutes for nothing because i switched the oven off when i put the stuff in
16:06:28 <oklofok> i remember doing it but i'm not sure why
16:07:31 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
16:07:37 <oklofok> mroman: it's like water flowing in pipes only until you get to capasitors and stuff
16:08:04 <oklofok> although i checked that word and the wikipedia page gives a water pipe analog.
16:09:58 <oklofok> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_analogy cool.
16:10:22 <mroman> I just don't understand the physical part of stuff
16:10:42 <mroman> that's just the way it is.
16:11:25 <mroman> If I'm asked to do some fourier shit with wave signals
16:12:02 <mroman> even though I have absolutely no idea what fourier or a wave actually is
16:13:01 -!- nooodl_ has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
16:13:44 <mroman> it's the same for everything that's closely related to physics.
16:13:54 -!- Taneb has joined.
16:14:38 <mroman> but I do know how to model physical systems using differential equations with system dynamics tools
16:16:07 <mroman> like simulating behaviours of oscilatting circuits and stuff
16:18:08 <mroman> given the model you use and the integration method you use is precise enough
16:19:28 <mroman> oklofok: I'm studying applied computer science
16:19:36 <mroman> embedded systems in particular
16:20:38 <oklofok> i guess you need to know some wire stuff for that
16:21:17 <mroman> we're getting taught basics of a lot of stuff ;)
16:21:50 <mroman> but really only the ground basics.
16:22:04 -!- asie has joined.
16:22:27 <mroman> I can calculate what *ideal* lense you'd need for your *ideal* eye condition :)
16:22:53 <mroman> and how big you'd have to draw a circle on the moon in order to see it with your naked eye
16:23:07 <mroman> assuming everything is ideal
16:23:27 <mroman> and that's kinda the point
16:23:58 <mroman> there almost certain is light refraction due to the atmosphere
16:24:06 <mroman> probably even depending on the moon position, temperature etc.
16:25:29 -!- ion has quit (Read error: Connection timed out).
16:26:14 -!- ion has joined.
16:28:11 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:28:52 <oklofok> yeah maybe the radius would change by a meter or so
16:29:37 <mroman> and hence I don't understand why light can't move faster than c
16:29:41 <mroman> I don't understand the whole thing
16:30:16 <mroman> I don't even know what light is
16:30:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:30:40 <mroman> except a wave that moves at c
16:31:01 -!- mnoqy has quit (Quit: hello).
16:31:02 <mroman> with a certain wave length
16:31:29 <mroman> why do waves with a certain wave length have so different properties than waves with other wavelengths
16:31:38 <mroman> even though they're both electromagnetic waves?
16:33:16 <mroman> We're not using red light to do x-rays
16:33:44 <mroman> atoms/things react different to certain wavelengths
16:34:36 <mroman> You may not count that as a property of the wave
16:34:42 <mroman> rather than a property of a certain material
16:34:47 <oklofok> but it's not that some wavelengths of light pass through things and some don't, it's that as you make the wavelength longer (or shorter?) it goes through stuff more easily
16:35:17 <mroman> I just know that longer waves are better for transmission into space
16:35:34 <mroman> because they penetrate the atmosphere and stuff better
16:36:18 <mroman> but I have no idea how electro-magnetical waves move at all :)
16:37:19 <mroman> probably altering some magnetic field
16:37:34 <mroman> since waves have an amplitude that amplitude must be something
16:38:15 <nortti> anyone interested in a unix v6 shell account?
16:38:51 <mroman> I have to admit that I don't understand electromagnetism really well
16:39:50 <mroman> is the whole universe in a big electromagnetic field?
16:40:17 <mroman> I assume that if there is no such field, than light could not travel at all?
16:40:35 <mroman> like sound needs something to travel
16:40:41 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
16:41:23 <mroman> oklofok: but you get my point why I have no idea about physics ;)
16:42:17 <oklofok> i don't think your problem is that you don't get physics, i think you just don't get what getting is
16:42:34 <oklofok> (and also you suck at physics)
16:44:53 <mroman> I'm not studying physics
16:44:59 <mroman> so that's pretty obvious @suck
16:48:32 <mroman> my definition of getting is "Can read and understand scientific papers in a particular field"
16:49:05 -!- MindlessDrone has quit (Quit: MindlessDrone).
16:49:30 <oklofok> you don't get much then i guess
16:53:36 -!- zzo38 has joined.
17:11:39 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
17:16:45 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
17:21:19 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
17:22:36 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
17:30:58 -!- Cubertango has joined.
17:31:25 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
17:34:52 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Quit: Uguubee111118).
17:36:17 -!- asie has joined.
17:46:07 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
18:04:40 <zzo38> Hello, what did you want to day?
18:11:41 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
18:14:19 -!- Cubertango has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:26:53 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
18:32:16 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
18:36:15 -!- nys has joined.
18:46:59 <kmc> oh we don't get to find out why :/
18:48:07 <kmc> grrrrrrr why do I keep misplacing my VMs and chroots
18:48:39 <drlemon> I was gonna say something along the lines of "Where are you guys, LA is ugly today", because it was the past few days, but holy shit, it's beautiful in Los Angeles.
18:48:51 <kmc> also i was wondering how VMX got disabled again but then I remembered I had the motherboard replaced for a repair a few weeks back so it's not even the same machine, woah dude
18:49:02 <kmc> LA can be beautiful
18:49:09 <kmc> where in LA are you?
18:49:54 <Taneb> I think I went to LA once when I was very small
18:49:56 <drlemon> Valley. It's been gray for a bit, though
18:50:43 * kmc lived in Pasadena for four years
18:50:53 <shachaf> that's in california not louisiana
18:51:17 <drlemon> I'm seeing they might be giants tonight! I'm super exited.
18:52:01 <olsner> kmc: hmm, you identify systems by their motherboards?
18:52:18 <olsner> I think it's the same system if the root filesystem or the os installation is the same
18:52:26 <kmc> yeah that's more like what I actually do
18:52:32 <kmc> shachaf: yes
18:52:34 <shachaf> what if it's a read-only filesystem and you clone it to two drives
18:53:02 <olsner> ... you get two of it?
18:53:40 <shachaf> is it the same system or two systems
18:54:05 * kmc makes a note to go all Roko's Basilisk on the next machine image which pisses him off
18:54:14 <Taneb> shachaf, it's seven systems
18:54:19 <Taneb> And three of them are out to get you
18:58:08 <fizzie> Just drank: a Hexhamian Curiosity Cola.
19:07:11 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
19:08:35 <Taneb> Yeah, I used to walk past their office/lab quite often
19:08:44 <Taneb> Few went in, even fewer went out
19:09:06 <Taneb> It used to be really busy, a major employer, but then Mr Fentiman shut the whole thing down.
19:09:10 <Taneb> Cola production stopped.
19:09:25 <Taneb> Then, just as mysteriously as it had stopped, it started again.
19:12:34 <Taneb> Then one day, only a few months ago, there was a competition announced.
19:13:32 <Taneb> 8 lucky children who find a golden ticket in their Fentimans drink, whether it be shandy, cherrytree cola, cool ginger beer, or pink lemonade, would receive a grand tour of this factory of legend...
19:13:47 <Taneb> And also a lifetime supply of carbonated beverages
19:13:56 <Taneb> Naturally the nation was in panic
19:14:02 <Taneb> Three children choked on their tickets
19:15:20 <Taneb> The remaining five went to the factory...
19:15:34 <Taneb> Only four came out again...
19:15:34 <Taneb> And they were changed.
19:15:53 <Taneb> Like, pretty literally changed.
19:15:53 <Taneb> One of them was made of ginger
19:17:07 <Taneb> None have them have said a word about what happened in there
19:17:28 <Taneb> (dear god this got dark fast)
19:17:35 <Taneb> Phantom___Hoover help
19:17:52 <Taneb> I think the fifth child was elliott
19:18:41 <Bike> if the dark god iarthal exists why do i feel happy. checkmate theists
19:19:12 <Taneb> Bike, the dark god iarthal got stuck in the Fentimans factory
19:20:02 <zzo38> Perhaps they are different people who they think are other people by mistaken, therefore they never said anything about it because they were never there!
19:20:30 <Taneb> zzo38, an interesting theory
19:20:39 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
19:20:42 <Taneb> But I think it has a few flaws in it
19:20:46 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
19:21:18 -!- ais523 has joined.
19:23:41 <zzo38> Do you expect it necessary the gods eating anything?
19:28:35 -!- epicmonkey has joined.
19:29:07 <zzo38> It doesn't necessarily mean anything is necessary in such case, but it also doesn't mean only necessary things are possible.
19:30:09 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
19:31:28 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
19:32:40 -!- ^v has quit (Quit: Ping timeout: 1337 seconds).
19:33:01 -!- ^v has joined.
19:40:13 -!- asie has joined.
19:46:07 <shachaf> kmc: http://tab.snarc.org/posts/haskell/2013-10-25-haskell-crypto-platform.html
19:48:18 <kmc> what's the problem?
19:51:26 -!- epicmonkey has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
19:59:22 <copumpkin> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS1lpKBMkgg
20:25:44 <Bike> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=2603533
20:26:33 <Bike> http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=2603510 this is some good stuff
20:31:47 <fizzie> "first outframe: (nan,0.000000) (nan,nan) (nan,nan) (nan,nan) (nan,nan) [..] (nan,nan) (nan,nan) (nan,0.000000)"
20:32:44 <Bike> nananananananananananana outframe
20:37:56 <fizzie> I'm going to blame emscripten, since it works just fine when compiled with the (same) clang.
20:38:04 <fizzie> As native code, I mean.
20:38:59 <ais523> different optimization settings?
20:39:36 <fizzie> I don't suppose the "emcc" wrapper does anything special with -Dfoo=bar's (like drops them off)?
20:41:06 <ais523> @tell boily it's called Undecimber, and no
20:41:33 <fizzie> It does not seem to be doing that.
20:48:16 -!- oerjan has joined.
20:57:03 <oerjan> Phantom___Hoover: did you get a satisfactory explanation for your vector space question
20:57:14 <Bike> vector space question?
20:57:31 <oerjan> good, then i don't have to repeat it :P
20:57:56 <Bike> sure if you're a coward
20:58:03 <oerjan> which is where i am reading it in the first place.
20:58:39 <oerjan> Bike: i wasn't going to mention that one.
20:59:11 <oerjan> wait that wasn't a direct Phantom___Hoover quote
20:59:42 <fizzie> Huh, -s USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=0 seems to make it work. (If slowly.)
21:00:51 <fizzie> And -s USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=1 also works. But USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=2 ends up with all those nans.
21:03:21 <ais523> !unicode MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING
21:05:46 <oerjan> `unicode MAN IN BUSINESS SUIT LEVITATING
21:06:18 <ais523> someone should upgrade HackEgo to Unicode 7
21:06:32 <oerjan> what are you saying it exists.
21:07:01 <oerjan> probably the fault of the japanese.
21:07:11 <ais523> oerjan: it was added really recently
21:07:24 <ais523> possibly the most amusing of the new codepoints
21:07:28 <olsner> someone put everything from wingdings in a new unicode block
21:08:19 <kmc> U+1F595 REVERSED HAND WITH MIDDLE FINGER EXTENDED
21:09:34 * oerjan ponders that theoretically it takes only one cell phone manufacturer with a mean streak to create enough new characters to break unicode.
21:09:59 <oerjan> they'd have to work a bit on it, but still.
21:10:59 <oerjan> whether that would break unicode's size limit or their policy of including everything actually used, is a different matter.
21:11:27 <Bike> unicode begins the arduous and controversial 'chat unificcation'
21:13:20 <elliott> oerjan: I think the human effort to draw all the glyphs that are free would be too big
21:14:19 <oerjan> and thus the world is saved by laziness again
21:15:05 <Bike> how many codepoints are free?
21:15:50 <fizzie> Probably something like approximately 14 planes?
21:16:30 <fizzie> Maybe more, everything else than BMP might still be quite sparse.
21:16:39 <fizzie> Less than 17 planes, anyway.
21:17:00 <Bike> each plane is 2^16 codepoints, right?
21:17:05 -!- Onliner13 has joined.
21:17:23 <fizzie> They gave away the last one for private use, unless I misremember.
21:17:34 <HackEgo> OnLiNeR13: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
21:19:18 <ais523> oerjan: can you please pick a more sensible welcome message next time :)
21:19:34 <oerjan> ais523: this is one of the _most_ sensible ones.
21:19:43 <kmc> llvm[4]: Compiling LegalizeFloatTypes.cpp for Release+Asserts build
21:19:58 <Bike> i wonder, if you had everyone on earth draw one glyph, what kind of duplications you'd get (if anY!)
21:20:02 <oerjan> i only picked it because i haven't seen it in a while.
21:20:02 <kmc> legalize float types, regulate and tax them for revenue
21:20:15 <olsner> kmc: is that a drug joke?
21:21:01 <oerjan> Bike: an unsurprising number of boobs and penises, i suspect
21:23:17 <oerjan> i suppose that name is too simple.
21:24:39 -!- asie has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...).
21:30:29 -!- Onliner13 has quit (Quit: Onliner13).
21:31:26 <oerjan> <mroman> my opinion is, that a more precise proof would specify the exact properties f must have in order to make the statement wrong <-- problem is, that the description of such f can be a _lot_ messier than finding a single one. possibly even uncomputable.
21:32:52 <oerjan> what you could hope for instead is an intuition why there would be _many_ counterexamples.
21:33:37 <fizzie> Hrm. -0.389 is a curious result for a*a + b*b, where both a and b are real numbers.
21:34:03 <elliott> fizzie: emscripten uses JS floats to represent ints by default I think
21:34:07 <elliott> if that's what you're talking about
21:34:18 <ais523> elliott: how would it end up negative though?
21:34:30 <elliott> because floats are weird? I don't know
21:34:49 <fizzie> The numbers in question were also floats. (Well, doubles.)
21:36:42 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> my opinion is, that a more precise proof would specify the exact properties f must have in order to make the statement wrong <-- problem is, that the description of such f can be a _lot_ messier than finding a single one. possibly even uncomputable.
21:36:57 <oerjan> @tell mroman what you could hope for instead is an intuition why there would be _many_ counterexamples.
21:37:05 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin.
21:38:25 -!- nisstyre has joined.
21:40:25 <fizzie> None of the numbers are less than zero as seen from the C code, so I guess I just do something wrong in the interface.
21:40:50 <fizzie> Right, I'm reading the wrong "pointer".
21:41:52 <fizzie> (Fun fact: emscripten pointers are also just js numbers containing indices into its HEAP (or IHEAP/FHEAP for USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=1, or I8HEAP/U8HEAP/etc. for USE_TYPED_ARRAYS=2) array.)
21:46:27 <oerjan> <mroman> I assume that if there is no such field, than light could not travel at all? <-- did he just reinvent the aether.
21:47:16 <Bike> i admit i have no idea how EM works though.
21:48:05 <oerjan> i suspect if you go all the way to the quantum field theory stuff, no one does.
22:03:52 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:04:53 -!- carado has joined.
22:08:46 -!- Oj742 has joined.
22:14:41 -!- Oj742 has quit (Quit: irc2go).
22:18:26 -!- JWinslow23 has joined.
22:18:41 -!- carado has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:19:39 -!- carado has joined.
22:20:47 <JWinslow23> It seems OriginalOldMan has made a Pancake Stack interpreter.
22:21:42 <JWinslow23> What is OriginalOldMan's name on the IRC channel?
22:23:53 <ais523> not everyone is on this IRC channel
22:24:24 <oerjan> i think i've seen him as OriginalOldMan here
22:24:33 <HackEgo> not lately; try `seen OriginalOldMan ever
22:25:09 <oerjan> `seen OriginalOldMan ever
22:25:13 <HackEgo> 2013-09-20 22:55:28: <OriginalOldMan> Hehe
22:25:14 <HackEgo> 2013-09-20 22:55:28: <OriginalOldMan> Hehe
22:25:55 <HackEgo> 2013-10-26 22:25:52: <JWinslow23> `seen JWinslow23 ever
22:26:11 <JWinslow23> 2013-10-26 22:25:52: <JWinslow23> `seen JWinslow23 ever
22:26:23 <Bike> i don't know what you were expecting
22:27:15 <oerjan> `run quine Anyone remember this one | rev
22:27:18 <HackEgo> ver | eno siht rebmemer enoynA eniuq nur`
22:27:58 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:28:03 <Bike> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through | rainwords
22:28:06 -!- nortti has changed nick to hvidiecat.
22:28:07 <HackEgo> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through | rainwords
22:28:26 -!- hvidiecat has changed nick to nortti.
22:28:35 <JWinslow23> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through
22:28:38 <HackEgo> `run quine eight hundred forty three armless and legless corpses floated inconspiculously through
22:30:20 <HackEgo> `quine "LIVE ON REVILED" | rev
22:30:41 <elliott> oerjan: idea: `quine experiments with the program you pipe it to to figure out how to reverse it >:)
22:30:42 <HackEgo> ver | "DELIVER NO EVIL" eniuq nur`
22:31:02 <oerjan> elliott: YOU GO RIGHT AHEAD IMPLEMENTING THAT
22:31:57 <HackEgo> ver | "I SAW ELBA" eniuq nur`
22:32:39 <ais523> elliott: idea: reimplement `run to see if `quine would run, if so, it just repeats the original line
22:32:48 <Bike> that hardly seems as fun.
22:35:43 <JWinslow23> `run quine "A R E W E N O T D R A W N O N W A R D T O N E W E R A" | rev
22:35:46 <HackEgo> ver | "A R E W E N O T D R A W N O N W A R D T O N E W E R A" eniuq nur`
22:35:46 <ais523> how does `quine get at the original command line, anyway? the logs?
22:36:48 <JWinslow23> `run quine "Straw? No, too stupid a fad; I put soot on warts." | rev
22:36:51 <HackEgo> ver | ".straw no toos tup I ;daf a diputs oot ,oN ?wartS" eniuq nur`
22:36:53 <elliott> ais523: you could also just output to stderr
22:37:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?
22:37:12 <Bike> imo mandate that all shell programs are total, then you can compute an inverse
22:37:38 <elliott> Bike: total isn't the word you're looking for there
22:37:54 <elliott> ais523: that would make it more boring though
22:38:03 <elliott> and break if you added 2>&1 anyway
22:38:05 <HackEgo> `quine NO, YOU'RE STUPID!
22:38:05 <HackEgo> `quine NO, YOU'RE STUPID!
22:38:07 <Bike> thinking is overrated.
22:38:12 <ais523> `run sed --in-place -e's/1 #/1 1>&2 #' bin/quine
22:38:14 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 14: unterminated `s' command
22:38:21 <ais523> `run sed --in-place -e's/1 #/1 1>&2 #/' bin/quine
22:38:39 <Bike> hey JWinslow23
22:38:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
22:38:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:41 <Bike> don't fucking do that
22:38:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:42 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:43 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:43 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:43 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:45 -!- ais523 has kicked JWinslow23 stop spamming.
22:38:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/quine: 2: cannot create 1: Read-only file system
22:38:52 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
22:39:03 <elliott> this is the second time he has been kicked for spamming...
22:39:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ cd /var/irclogs/_esoteric; cat $(ls ????-??-??.txt | tail -1) | sed 's/[^>]*> //' | grep '^`' | tail -1 #Best cheating quine ever?
22:39:13 <Bike> i don't get what's hard to understand
22:39:18 <ais523> yeah, I messed up the 1>&2, forgot to escape the &
22:39:22 <ais523> I'll leave it like the original
22:39:31 <ais523> sorry for not doing that faster, the commands take some time to type
22:39:40 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
22:39:40 <ais523> err, the kicking the spammer that is
22:39:43 -!- elliott has set channel mode: -o elliott.
22:39:55 <ais523> I needed to type the reason too :(
22:39:55 <Bike> can't you people use chanserv
22:39:57 <elliott> I have /msg chanserv op # muscle-memoried because of #haskell
22:40:00 <ais523> whereas you needed to escape the /
22:40:05 <Bike> worst dictators ever imo
22:40:09 <ais523> elliott: oh, I was cheating with /cs
22:40:28 <elliott> I never bothered to set up a /cs alias
22:40:42 <fizzie> Possibly a "/csk" alias to do the whole thing. For advanced cheaters only.
22:40:53 <ais523> elliott: I didn't, either
22:41:01 <ais523> but Konversation sends unknown slash-commands onto the server
22:41:06 <ais523> and Freenode implements a nonstandard CS command
22:41:07 <elliott> fizzie: yeah, I should just make kickban commands auto-op, but I don't want to write the script or install an existing one to do it
22:41:29 <Bike> oh, this server doesn't have /cs kick like esper does
22:41:39 <ais523> I don't want to have to do that much opping that a shortcut is useful
22:41:47 <ais523> also, I'm amused that JWinslow23 didn't rejoin
22:42:00 <Bike> reflecting on his actions no doubt
22:42:00 <ais523> normally people would in that situation
22:43:14 <fizzie> Bike: There's a "chanserv quiet", though.
22:44:01 <oerjan> i have an alias for /^msg chanserv op #esoteric , you might be able to guess what it's called.
22:44:28 <oerjan> to prevent opening a stupid query window
22:44:29 <fizzie> Is it called "/evildictatormode"?
22:44:47 <coppro> oerjan: /hackegoquine?
22:44:58 <fizzie> Then it must be called /opsoteric, whimsically.
22:45:24 <oerjan> you people are just not pun thinking enough.
22:47:00 -!- nooodl has joined.
22:47:48 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:48:10 <coppro> oerjan: oh, I get it. it's /sigh right
22:48:46 <oerjan> (no it's not /swat either)
22:49:03 <coppro> oerjan: I presume /swat is for swatting
22:49:20 <oerjan> i don't actually have an alias for that.
22:50:39 <olsner> manual swatting? how old school
22:50:53 <oerjan> the swatter needs precision handling, olsner
22:52:56 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined.
23:07:22 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit).
23:08:28 <shachaf> kmc: the idea of using skew binary in data structures is p. nifty imo
23:10:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:10:49 -!- augur has joined.
23:11:53 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:11:55 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:16:37 -!- augur_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
23:18:22 <shachaf> it seems like there ought to be a better way of representing skew numbers
23:19:02 <shachaf> e.g. (Bool, [Bit]) (with the Bool representing whether the least-significant 1 is actually a 2)
23:19:08 <shachaf> with some special handling for 0 or something
23:19:20 <shachaf> but that might be a red herring because you can have skew n-ary
23:32:33 -!- yorick has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:50:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/bGaH -- wonder if I should report that as an Emscripten issue. (Actually puzzling it out sounds a bit too much like work.)
23:54:28 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:55:04 -!- Koen_ has quit (Quit: Koen_).
23:56:38 <zzo38> Should some computer game include one item is a sign that says "Oak: Now is not the time to use that!" written on it?
23:57:38 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined.
23:57:56 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).