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00:18:17 <pikhq> 3ds.pokemon-gl.com appears to have been written by a moron.
00:18:33 <pikhq> <script type="text/html">
00:18:44 <Bike> what does that even mean.
00:19:05 <pikhq> Apparently it works in Webkit though.
00:19:29 <Bike> what constitutes "working"
00:19:42 <pikhq> "Renders in the browser" in this case.
00:19:47 <Bike> like i don't even know how i'd gauge success
00:19:52 <pikhq> The whole page's contents are in that script block.
00:20:01 <pikhq> So it doesn't render jack in Firefox.
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00:34:52 <JesseH> esoteric awards no more?
00:36:00 <Bike> we only give out complementary perfumes.
00:37:26 <Bike> you may be thinking, «doesn't it mean «complimentary»?» to which i'd say, it's pretty rude to think of me as "it". bikes can have genders too in this human-dominated society.
00:44:03 <JesseH> Thinking about programming language creation has become a nice passtime
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00:57:15 <Koen_> when I think about programming language creation I get frustrated because I cannot think of anything *new*
00:57:40 <JesseH> Once you get the hang of it :P
00:57:46 <Bike> you know what they say: the greeks thought of everything therefore original thought isn't possibe
00:58:52 <Koen_> well it's true the word "algorithm" sounds kinda greek right? so the greeks have to have thought about computer science
00:59:02 <oerjan> i do _not_ think the greeks thought of zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms.
00:59:15 <mnoqy> why wouldn't they have
00:59:40 <oerjan> Koen_: it's actually arabic/persian or thereabouts.
01:00:07 <Koen_> you just explained the joke oerjan
01:00:11 <Koen_> that makes it unfunny
01:00:16 <Bike> i guess oerjan hasn't read the enneades.
01:02:23 <JesseH> Need a language made for making jokes funnier
01:02:54 <Bike> My jokes cannot be improved.
01:05:31 <JesseH> Is there a language like..
01:05:54 <oerjan> incidentally the khwarizmians managed to get genghis khan particularly angry, and thus doomed their empire.
01:06:12 <JesseH> Something, english like.
01:06:27 <mnoqy> english like in terms of syntax or semantics
01:06:27 <Bike> that doesn't mean anything.
01:07:09 <mnoqy> have you looked at "inform"?
01:07:26 <Bike> have you looked at "Syntactic Structures"
01:07:40 <Bike> have you looked at "Strunk & White"
01:07:59 <mnoqy> ok the next question is what do you mean by it having english-like syntax and what do you mean by it having english-like semantics
01:08:24 <Koen_> inform 7 has pretty english-like syntax
01:08:44 <mnoqy> of course, syntax is the least interesting thing
01:09:04 <JesseH> havent payed a text adventure lately
01:09:04 <mnoqy> actually doing nlp might be interesting though because heh heh nlp
01:09:09 <Bike> that's a mean thing to say about chomsky!!
01:10:23 <augur> syntax is the most puzzling part of language that we can properly study
01:10:35 <JesseH> I like MUDs better than regular text adventures.
01:10:39 * augur says, completely unbiased by the fact that he's a syntactician
01:10:56 <Bike> i only play megaman x fangames
01:11:30 <oerjan> augur: ok do you get pinged on "syntax", "semantics", or "chomsky"
01:11:47 <augur> oerjan: not telling :D
01:12:11 <augur> but now its all three!
01:12:26 <mnoqy> how did that 'a' move all the way over there
01:12:41 <Koen_> so this proves you cannot observe something without influencing it
01:13:06 <JesseH> you can observe something without influencing it
01:13:28 <Koen_> clearly you're not a quantum physicist!
01:13:36 <JesseH> You might be right about that.
01:13:56 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics) the joke is,none f us know phhysics past the 20s
01:14:02 <JesseH> I'm a scientifical time waster guy
01:14:22 <nys> armchair syntactician
01:14:36 <oerjan> mnoqy: probably because 'in' is written with the right hand.
01:14:49 <mnoqy> that expl;ains things
01:14:54 <oerjan> so my hands had a little race condition.
01:14:57 <JesseH> I write it with two, actrue-ally
01:15:19 <mnoqy> i have these problems aalll the time or at least i used to but probalbly i sdtill have them
01:15:56 <Koen_> I was told those races would disappear with purely functional programming
01:16:26 <oerjan> a very godwinian view of functional programming.
01:18:27 <Koen_> well I was also shown how to emulate concurrent programming using lazy evaluation
01:19:02 <Koen_> wait I was supposed to phrase that as a continuation to your joke
01:19:23 <Koen_> erm time to go to bed
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02:40:33 <kmc> data32 data32 data32 data32 nopw %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
02:40:55 <Bike> that's a lot of data.
02:41:32 <oerjan> can't have enough data.
02:41:51 <kmc> that's a 14 byte NOP
02:42:35 <Bike> is data32 a prefix? i was reading it as an assembler directive >_>
02:42:44 <kmc> yeah it's one of the size overrides
02:43:12 <Fiora> that's a big nop, gosh
02:43:39 <Bike> The Big Nop, now at burger king
02:43:43 <Fiora> I was cleaning out my closet and gosh, it's amazing what I find @_@ I found a C programming book printed in 1995
02:44:50 <kmc> no C99 for u
02:45:30 <Fiora> and my simcity strategy guide
02:45:46 <Fiora> and somehow a copy of "the singularity is near" (aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa where did it come from ;_;)
02:45:58 <Bike> i have one for 3000 laying around. it has a section on making geography to play in from USGS bitmaps.
02:46:27 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg why am i in this field. god help me
02:46:28 <Sgeo> I read The Age of Spiritual Machines when I was a kid
02:47:17 <Bike> the real horror of this image is that it's a jpg rather than an svg.
02:48:07 <Sgeo> Maybe some people have browsers that don't support svg. And we should also be quite concerned for those who don't support CSS.
02:48:38 <Bike> or maybe a biologist knows shit about images.
02:49:01 <Bike> Oh, you can download an "Albus Illustrator" file. What the hell is that.
02:49:59 <Sgeo> I should be sleeping
02:57:15 <Fiora> gosh so many old things. cleaning is scary
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02:59:33 <olsner> kmc: data32 is a bit weird, shouldn't the operand prefix mean data16 in long mode?
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03:03:29 <oerjan> <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/MyosinUnrootedTree.jpg why am i in this field. god help me <-- http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3152#comic
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03:04:43 <Bike> that comic went up two days before we started in on endocrinology
03:04:46 <Bike> terrifying lemme tell ya
03:05:48 <Bike> i mean this is 100-level bullshit but it's still "here's the half-dozen hormones involved in regulating eclosion and all their nonlinear fun"
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03:33:23 <shachaf> http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1445
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04:43:55 <Gracenotes> I made a pretty nice Zerg onesie at a baby shower today (there was a make-your-own-onesie craft station)
04:44:31 <Bike> nice pattern, yes.
04:45:00 <Gracenotes> it's for your zerglings to wear in public
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05:30:39 <oklofok> "<JesseH> Once you get the hang of it :P" in my experience, it's not so much that you get the hang of it at some point, it's that eventually you realize nothing you do is new enough.
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05:32:39 <oklofok> augur: what do you think of context-sensitive languages?
05:33:19 <augur> what do you mean what do i think of them?
05:33:49 <oklofok> do you think they are a useful class
05:34:03 <augur> not in the usual presentation no
05:34:07 <augur> but in principle, sure
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05:36:02 <oklofok> because i know this formal grammars dude who abhors it, since it has nothing to do with syntax
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05:36:53 <oklofok> because it doesn't actually give any syntactic structure to the word, it just does an unstructured computation
05:36:53 <augur> natural language syntax?
05:37:07 <augur> oh, well thats true of all rewriting systems
05:37:21 <oklofok> it's not true of context-free
05:37:24 <augur> tho non-CF grammars can give structure, just not the usual sort
05:37:45 <augur> you have to use DAGs not just trees
05:37:47 <oklofok> and it's not true of boolean grammars, which is what he himself does
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05:40:06 <oklofok> and it's not true of tree-adjoining grammars
05:40:17 <augur> its also not true of CSGs
05:40:26 <oklofok> it's totally true of them tho?
05:40:53 <augur> you can assign perfectly good DAG near-trees to them
05:40:58 <augur> infact, its not uncommon to see it
05:41:33 <augur> http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0364021304000631-gr1.gif
05:41:36 <augur> they look like that
05:42:23 <oklofok> i should ask him what he thinks of dag near-trees
05:43:15 <oklofok> he's a pretty opinionated dude, mainly about formal grammars and ethnicity
05:48:48 <oklofok> okay i don't think that's a very useful syntactic structure; i mean you would sort of hope that once you have the fixed-point solution, and thus know the "meaning" of each symbol, you would be able to check that the equations hold and given a string over them you'd know what language it gives. this is true of those that i mentioned, but as for
05:48:53 <Gracenotes> modulo a couple of grammars I believe you need some diagonalization arguments to construct, context-sensitive languages are basically unrestricted
05:48:55 <oklofok> context-sensitive, you just have to do the computatiomn
05:49:14 <oklofok> then again, what do i know
05:49:25 <Gracenotes> (in the same way that modern computers are Turing-complete)
05:49:26 <augur> oklofok: i dunno. havent thought about it might
05:49:41 <augur> ive moved away from grammar formalisms in the last year or so
05:49:55 <mnoqy> in the same way that modern computers are huge finite state machines
05:50:05 <oklofok> i have thought about it because i know this guy
05:50:08 <mnoqy> oh that's what you meant
05:51:15 <oklofok> Gracenotes: do you know the formal sense in which they are unrestricted?
05:51:43 <oklofok> they are the class of languages computable in linear space (so the class is PSPACE-complete with respect to P-reductions)
05:52:25 <augur> oklofok: ive been recently focused on abstract formal properties that classify languages
05:53:04 <oklofok> (PSPACE is certainly beyond what people call tractable, but there is life beyond it...)
05:53:21 <oklofok> (by which i mean there are bigger classes that have an interesting theory)
05:53:32 <oklofok> augur: sounds interesting, i don't get it
05:53:58 <oklofok> you just said you are still a syntactician
05:54:06 <augur> oklofok: well, you can define CFLs = { L | L is generated by some CFG }
05:54:13 <Gracenotes> context-sensitive is strictly smaller than unrestricted, but grammars which are unrestricted but not context-sensitive are somewhat hard to come up with, to my understanding.
05:54:15 <augur> but that depends on the notion of CFGs
05:54:33 <augur> but there are infinitely many equivalent formalisms, why pick one?
05:54:35 <oklofok> oh unrestricted in the sense of the chomskian hierarchy
05:54:48 <augur> how can we characterize the CFLs without reference to the grammars?
05:54:58 <augur> well, the pumping lemma for CFLs is one such way
05:55:12 <augur> thats an example of what ive been trying to think about lately
05:55:51 <augur> Gracenotes: yeah, CSLs can do so so much computationally
05:55:55 <oklofok> Gracenotes: there are many examples. the standard example is either regular expressions with binary exponents, or finding a strategy in unrestricted go, depending on what you're reading.
05:55:59 <augur> almost, if not all computation we care about is CS
05:56:27 <Bike> Binary exponents?
05:56:40 <oklofok> augur: oh okay that stuff; i've thought about the exact same problem
05:57:25 <oklofok> Bike: i mean like (a+bb)^(1101011)
05:57:34 <oklofok> where (1101011) is a binary number
05:57:49 <oklofok> and you need to know whether you get the full language iirc
05:57:49 <augur> what does that mean
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05:58:10 <oklofok> augur: just (a+bb)^n where n is the number encoded by the bits
05:58:23 <augur> oklofok: how is that not just a regular language
05:58:27 <oklofok> if it's unary, then you can run the usual algorithms, but decompressing the binary number takes too much time.
05:58:39 <augur> oh i see, so its specifically the binary representation
05:58:48 <oklofok> augur: it is, but looks very different if you have a specific thing you have to compute about it
05:59:09 <oklofok> because you don't have time to compute its unary equivalent; that takes exptime.........
05:59:26 <augur> thats an interesting think that often comes up -- having meta-numbers is cheap, having internal numbers is not
05:59:58 <augur> a^n as a meta-notation for a n times is regular, a^n as actual code, not so much
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06:02:36 <oklofok> i think the crucial thing is just that it's a compressed regexp; you get the same stuff in the sense of formal languages, but a different one in the sense of complexity theory (or state complexity)
06:03:22 <Gracenotes> so, the converse of this state of affairs is what was mentioned earlier, which is that CSLs lack structure... in the same way general computation does.
06:03:31 <oklofok> (state complexity is where you do an operation on languages, and you look at the size of blow-up in the corresponding machines)
06:03:34 <Gracenotes> I dunno what to think of the structure of language anymore, though...
06:03:38 <augur> indeed, because you're treating the regexp as a program for a machine
06:03:44 <augur> not merely as a specification of a machine
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06:03:59 <augur> Gracenotes: not CSLs, CSGs
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06:05:51 <Gracenotes> ah. yes. the language class has at least somethin to do with it, though.
06:08:58 <oklofok> it's certainly an interesting philosophical question of whether a language has structure
06:09:22 <augur> oklofok: thats sort of why ive shifted away from grammars
06:09:30 <oklofok> but i don't know if there's a mathematical question about it. but it's interesting to see for example completely different cfgs for the same languages.
06:09:38 <augur> because i feel the "structure" we should be characterizing shouldnt be beholden to a particular grammar formalism
06:09:50 <augur> but i dont know of any techniques for this
06:10:47 <oklofok> and about your suggestion of chatting, maybe we can do that some day, but right now i'm sort of trying to get away from the computer, as i have to go drive a car.
06:11:32 <oklofok> "<oklofok> but i don't know if there's a mathematical question about it." well okay, i guess characterizing cfgs is a good mathematical question about it
06:11:48 <oklofok> (well it's not a yes/no question so it's not the best kind of question, but anyway)
06:11:53 <augur> if you can suggest something to read on the subject?
06:14:09 <oklofok> i've learned most of what i know from the guy i mentioned, and his notes are in http://users.utu.fi/aleokh/formal_grammars/, but it's not in a very finished state prolly
06:14:46 <oklofok> and also from going to conferences where state complexity is discussed
06:15:12 <oklofok> (i like to send my cellular automaton articles to all sorts of random conferences.)
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06:20:52 <Taneb> Wow I had another good night's sleep
06:21:01 <Taneb> oerjan help my sleep schedule is back with a vengeance
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10:52:42 <nooodl> @tell Bike turns out there's a second episode of learnfun/playfun antics by tom7, and watching it play zelda is *amazing* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGJHR9Ovszs
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11:31:57 <ion> http://heeris.id.au.nyud.net/2013/this-is-why-you-shouldnt-interrupt-a-programmer
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11:41:18 <nooodl> ion: i don't think in UML and flowcharts, am i still a real programmer?!
11:41:57 <ion> nooodl: Sorry, no. Please tell me you at least think in XML.
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12:11:52 <Koen_> sooo Monads are just a nice type class that allows for a lot of syntactic sugar?
12:12:04 <Koen_> especially when used with "do"
12:12:31 <ion> koen: You should write a monad tutorial that explains monads as that.
12:13:18 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
12:13:24 <ais523_> was actually trying to remember the definition last night
12:15:01 <olsner> ion: has no-one done that yet?
12:16:23 <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity.
12:17:25 <boily> good monadic morning!
12:18:16 <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings.
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12:30:11 * nooodl is reminded by boily's presence to write that tutorial on applicative functors in terms of québécois profanity
12:32:01 <boily> ah! the “<de>” operator.
12:35:30 <nooodl> yeah. il fait froid «$» crisse «*» câlice «*» tabarnak.
12:36:49 <boily> may I suggest s/froid/frette/ for authenticity? otherwise the sacres are perfectly spelled.
12:37:33 <nooodl> some sources spelled "câlisse" so i had to guess!
12:38:25 <boily> <c> and <ss> are acceptable, even if the latter is more common.
12:39:11 <boily> olsner: damn it's motherfscking fscking freezing cold.
12:39:37 <nooodl> it's kinda untranslatable because you wouldn't make long chains of profanities like that in english!
12:39:57 <nooodl> but yeah it's vaguely "it's cold as fuck", except imagine the "as fuck" takes up over half the original sentence
12:40:12 <olsner> il fait froid = he's doing cold? and then the crisse, calise, tabarnak are additional profanities?
12:40:51 <nooodl> "il" is used as a dummy subject, as in "il pleut", "it's raining" (what's "it"? same thing)
12:40:56 <boily> the «il» in «il fait» is impersonal. this idiom points to a current state of things.
12:41:19 <boily> cf. nooodl's «il pleut». same usage as “it”.
12:41:47 <olsner> I got that, but I was wondering if it was a male gender dummy subject, and whether cold is done rather than been in french
12:42:43 <nooodl> «$» is really «en» and «*» is really «de». i'm actually not sure what it would translate to word-for-word but it's definitely good
12:42:57 <nooodl> "it's cold as christ of chalice(?) of (???)"
12:43:06 <boily> tabernacle, I think?
12:43:31 <nooodl> god it's hard to imagine any of these words being actually offensive
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12:45:28 <nooodl> 'Sometimes older people unable to bring themselves to swear with church words or their derivatives used to make up phrases that sound innocuous like cinq six boîtes de tomates vartes (literally, "five six boxes of green tomatoes", varte being slang for verte, "green"). This phrase when pronounced quickly by a native speaker sounds like saint-siboire de tabarnac ("holy ciborium of the tabernacle").'
12:45:59 <nooodl> tomates vartes sounds like tabarnac??
12:46:56 * boily tries to not strangulate himself with his earphones' cord while he rofles
12:47:51 <olsner> tomatvar tamatvar tabatvar tabarnac?
12:50:01 <boily> /sẽ.si.ˈbwɒːt.də.tɔ.ˈmät.ˈvɒʁt/, /sɛ̃.si.ˈbwɶːʁ.də.tä.bäʁ.näk/
12:50:49 <boily> hmm.... replace ɶ with ɒ.
12:51:49 <HackEgo> Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde #esoteric deneyin.)
12:54:20 <boily> olsner: I suspect google translate being involved in that Turkish welcome.
12:54:31 <boily> (meanwhile, ♪ding♪ updated PDF!)
12:55:04 <olsner> boily: I can't tell, but suspicion seems prudent
12:55:55 <nooodl> i'm trying to find a good resource on french accents. they're pretty fascinating
12:56:09 <boily> olsner: oh. not you, but oerjan. I really have trouble distinguishing between you two.
12:56:19 <boily> @tell oerjan did you google the Turk?
12:56:45 <boily> nooodl: if you find any, please do tell. wikipédia's articles on the subject are lacking in quality.
12:56:51 <olsner> boily: one is norwegian, one is swedish, how hard can it be?
12:57:16 <boily> olsner: is that a pick-up line to a wunza plot?
12:58:22 <nooodl> i'm watching youtube videos of people speaking all kinds of accents and they're pretty hard to tell apart
12:58:40 <olsner> the end is a bit too unspectacular for a wunza plot though
12:58:49 <nooodl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_RxZc7eMeU
12:59:36 <olsner> oh well, I should really get to work now
13:01:55 <boily> nooodl: ah, a pair of montréalais.
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13:29:28 <boily> aaaaurgh. against my will and sanity, I'm being drawn deeper and deeper into the Realm of Enterprise Software.
13:42:48 <Koen_> can someone help me understand monads? namely why does this code work: http://pastebin.com/zLiUg67V
13:43:13 <Koen_> the exercise was to write the monad; the remainder of the code is not from me
13:43:31 <Koen_> I don't understand how "y - 4" can make any sense if y is "Sure 3"
13:44:31 <boily> “y” is not “Sure 3”, but “3”. the “a <- f” decomposes to “f >>= \a -> ...”.
13:45:28 <ais523_> basically, if any line with "y" in even gets to run, then the "y" is bound to "q", where "safeRoot x" returns "sure q"
13:45:36 <ais523_> that's what the second line of the monad instance says
13:46:06 <Koen_> that's this "<-" I didn't really understand
13:47:10 <Koen_> the tutorial explained something about the bind operator being used between the lines; so I was trying to imagine the first line bound to the second line
13:48:04 <ais523_> if the first line returns Nah, then what happens is that the second line desugars to something containing "\y -> safeRoot (y - 4)", but that function is never applied to anything
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14:06:19 <boily> `relcome hangermeet_agent
14:06:22 <HackEgo> hangermeet_agent: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:07:06 <ais523_> oh, so that's what `relcome looks like
14:07:13 <ais523_> (my usual client has color turned off)
14:07:32 <ais523_> although, recoloring in the middle of a link breaks the link highlighter on Freenode webchat
14:07:41 <ais523_> how many welcome variants don't break the link?
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14:10:38 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:10:45 <FireFly> That one doesn't, I suppose
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14:12:59 <ais523_> because it colours per-word?
14:13:13 <ais523_> we should get rid of relcome in favour of tha tone
14:16:08 <ais523_> `run ln -s rwelcome bin/relcome
14:16:17 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:32:43 <boily> meh. `rwelcome isn't random.
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14:34:02 <HackEgo> boily: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:34:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
14:34:26 <HackEgo> cat: rainwords: No such file or directory
14:34:31 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,13,6]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
14:34:46 <Jafet> That's an interesting coincidence
14:34:59 <HackEgo> random: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:35:27 <ais523_> still following the same sequence, but it seems to be starting at a random point in it
14:35:34 <ais523_> `relcome 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
14:35:38 <HackEgo> 1: 2: 3: 4: 5: 6: 7: 8: 9: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #es
14:35:52 <nooodl> "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r)))
14:36:07 <nooodl> that assigns a random index in (0, len(r)) to s
14:36:44 <nooodl> and you take r[(i+s)%len(r)] so it's offset by s
14:37:03 <ais523_> actually, given that the color sequence is red, orange, yellow, green, blue, magenta, dark magenta
14:37:20 <ais523_> it looks like it's intended as an approximation of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet
14:37:28 <ais523_> in which case the only mistake is that the two magentas are backwards
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14:37:35 <ais523_> and the randomization behaviour is intentional
14:40:12 <nooodl> `run sed 's/13,6/6,13/' bin/rainwords
14:40:13 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w)
14:40:30 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:40:53 <ais523_> nooodl: you didn't edit in place
14:41:04 <ais523_> `run sed --in-place 's/14,6/6,13' bin/rainwords
14:41:05 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 11: unterminated `s' command
14:41:10 <ais523_> `run sed --in-place 's/14,6/6,13/' bin/rainwords
14:41:21 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:41:32 <ais523_> `run sed --in-place 's/13,6/6,13/' bin/rainwords
14:41:39 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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14:47:41 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: HTTP://ESOLANGS!ORG/WIKI/MAIN_PAGE! (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC!DAL!NET!)!
14:48:15 <ais523_> let's see how many stupid welcome variants I can get rid of before someone reverts
14:48:52 <HackEgo> ` \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ chroot \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ e \ echo \ echo \ emmental \ emoclew \ emptylist \ erflist \ etymology \ forget \ f
14:50:13 <ais523_> is that a prolonged meow, a singing meow, or a very sarcastic meow?
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14:52:45 <boily> HackEgo... meows???
14:53:01 * boily stays close to his sane and unmeowing bot
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14:56:31 <FireFly> ais523_: `! isn't so much a stupid welcome variant as a more exclamatory `?
14:56:45 -!- shikhin has joined.
14:56:58 <ais523_> OK so it's a stupid `? variant
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15:00:49 <HackEgo> .egaugnal31 gnimmargorp2 lufroloc9 yllaer8 a7 si4 teiP6
15:01:24 <boily> I feel there's room for improvement, but that'll do for the moment.
15:01:43 * boily has a sudden illuminative moment.
15:01:55 <boily> gnimmargorp. *sigh*
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15:17:46 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 21m 26s ago: did you google the Turk?
15:18:19 <oerjan> boily: yes, it's probably standard google translate quality :)
15:24:42 <boily> I think I'll chapterise the welcomes. they are becoming numerous and linguistical.
15:28:33 <HackEgo> "Gnimmargorp" er algeng stafsetningarvilla af "grimmargorp".
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15:29:25 <boily> oh hm. a forgotten entry.
15:30:13 <oerjan> boily: well i recently added it.
15:32:03 <oerjan> @tell Gracenotes <Gracenotes> so, the converse of this state of affairs is what was mentioned earlier, which is that CSLs lack structure... in the same way general computation does. <-- reminds me of people saying that a main problem with solving P vs. NP is that we don't really understand all the weird kinds of computations that are in P.
15:32:15 <oerjan> i wonder if lambdabot cuts that off.
15:32:21 <boily> oh, would a Finnishophone be kind enough to have the welcome translated?
15:36:37 <boily> ♪déng♪ new chapter, and a fresh gnimmargorp.
15:40:51 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> oerjan help my sleep schedule is back with a vengeance <-- disturbing.
15:43:42 <oerjan> `addquote <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity. <boily> good monadic morning! <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings. <myname> what
15:43:46 <HackEgo> 1124) <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity. <boily> good monadic morning! <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings. <myname> what
15:44:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
15:45:10 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
15:45:21 <oerjan> they're not all bin/ified
15:46:10 <oerjan> what language would that be.
15:46:13 <nooodl> clearly i have a mission
15:46:50 <boily> myname: lucky you, here comes a new quotacular section for you!
15:47:34 <HackEgo> myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I?
15:47:49 <myname> is there a german version yet?
15:48:21 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/welcome13
15:48:32 <oerjan> `run ls wisdome/welcome*
15:48:34 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdome/welcome*: No such file or directory
15:48:35 <oerjan> `run ls wisdom/welcome*
15:48:37 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es
15:48:53 <oerjan> the naming scheme is a little hard to predict.
15:49:00 <nooodl> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
15:49:24 <Bike> kmc: watch out, all those #drugz will catch up to you 08:44 < HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenue: not found
15:49:29 <Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/flashboy/status/394737605784641536/photo/1
15:49:40 <oerjan> `learn Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en
15:49:41 <oerjan> implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer
15:49:41 <oerjan> informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page.
15:49:41 <oerjan> (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
15:49:42 <nooodl> i don't want to embarrass myself fumbling with the HackEgo commands required to get that into `?
15:49:48 <nooodl> `learn Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
15:50:03 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en
15:50:15 <boily> go go guys! you can do it!
15:50:16 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
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15:50:38 <oerjan> nooodl: and i was starting to get used to irssi's line joining working properly :(
15:51:09 <nooodl> also this is a translation of the french one so it better be accurate!
15:51:37 <Bike> nooodl: hahaha, were people seriously worrying about skynet
15:51:56 <boily> nooodl: I think many people twiddled and fiddled the French version.
15:52:21 <nooodl> Bike: that's youtube comments for you
15:52:51 <Bike> "the dark side of pausing"
15:52:52 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
15:54:23 <Bike> still no triforce
15:54:41 <oerjan> nooodl: i assume you found starting with the french a more belgian way of doing it?
15:54:43 <myname> if you were a super villian, what would be your master plan?
15:55:11 <nooodl> oerjan: it's going to get even better, just you watch
15:55:17 <boily> myname: make nattō the Universal National Dish.
15:55:50 <oerjan> that does sound super villainous.
15:56:15 <boily> not my problem people don't like it. I do, and it's healthy!
15:56:19 <oerjan> i guess when i take over the world i won't be that evil, just lutefisk.
15:59:28 <nooodl> `learn Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen, besuchen Sie die Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für anderen Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
16:00:16 <myname> i think you would say "das Wiki"
16:00:38 <oerjan> < Bike> kmc: https://twitter.com/flashboy/status/394737605784641536/photo/1 <-- rofl
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16:04:50 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/die Wiki/das Wiki/' wisdom/Willkommen
16:04:52 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/Willkommen: No such file or directory
16:04:58 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/anderen/andere/' wisdom/willkommen
16:05:10 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/die Wiki/das Wiki/' wisdom/willkommen
16:09:50 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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16:15:23 <oerjan> <nooodl> it's kinda untranslatable because you wouldn't make long chains of profanities like that in english! <-- Det va då steike hælvete te satans førbainna uver...
16:15:39 <oerjan> (in northern norwegian, you would hth)
16:15:56 <nooodl> what does that translate to, word by word
16:16:41 <oerjan> that was then fry hell to satan's damned bad_weather
16:16:58 <oerjan> (you _did_ ask for word by word)
16:17:00 <myname> fun fact, hth would translate perfectly fine to hdh in german
16:17:13 <oerjan> myname: norwegian too.
16:19:32 <oerjan> you may notice a slight difference in focus of the profanities from quebecois, btw
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16:30:13 <oerjan> <ais523_> we should get rid of relcome in favour of tha tone <-- ;_;
16:30:30 <oerjan> YOU KILLED RELCOME YOU BASTARDS
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16:41:38 <HackEgo> welcome.bork Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: http://isulungs.oorg/veeki/Meeen_Pege-a. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon irc.del.net.)
16:41:58 <FireFly> I see, there were already a dutch entry.
16:42:10 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
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17:09:47 <boily> back from lunch, and oerjan can hth.
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17:13:08 <Koen_> does hth mean "Happily Testimony that it was Hot" or something?
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17:27:21 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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17:36:02 <augur> very cute fact: { w | w <- {0,1}*, w has equal numbers of 01 and 10 }
17:36:06 <augur> is a regular language
17:36:21 <augur> in fact, it is the language { 0w0 | w <- {0,1}* }
17:36:56 <boily> what's a «*» doing there?
17:37:22 <myname> i assume it's a kleene star
17:37:42 <myname> but i disagree with both statements
17:38:20 <myname> equal numbers of 01 and 10 would need either counting or an infinite dfa
17:38:31 <myname> both are no reagular languages
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17:40:23 <Bike> well, 00 does have equal numbers of 01 and 10.
17:40:57 <boily> there should be an Infinite Deterministic Finite Automaton.
17:41:14 <Bike> i don't see how to make it asymmetric if there are zeroes on both ends.
17:41:45 <myname> interesting trick, counting chars two times
17:45:03 <augur> boily: yes it would :)
17:45:22 <augur> include 00 and 000 i mean
17:45:32 <augur> infinite 01 and 10 doesnt actually require counting or an infinite dfa
17:45:34 <Bike> isn't it also 1{0,1}*1?
17:45:35 <augur> thats the surprising thing
17:45:38 <augur> it SEEMS like it would
17:46:48 <Bike> 11 has equal numbers of 01 and 10 and isn't it 0{0,1}*0, certainly.
17:49:34 <augur> so maybe its 0w0 and 1w1
17:49:39 <augur> anyway, its a cute fact
17:52:12 <boily> when you polish a diamond, it's acute facet.
17:52:33 <boily> when you shorten a spigot, it's a cut faucet.
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18:16:30 <olsner> "<oerjan> `addquote <ion> olsner: " <-- that quote doesn't really need to include me
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18:37:43 <mroman> if with 0.6 probablity: every x has property p
18:38:05 <mroman> then with 0.6 probably: not exists x has property (not p)?
18:39:19 <mroman> or more formal: forall{0.6} x: hasProperty(x,p) == notexists{0.6} x: hasProperty(x,!p)
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18:40:51 <boily> mroman: “forall{0.6” ← are you implying there can be multiple 0.6es?
18:42:29 <Bike> mroman: probability is irrelevant there. "for all x p(x)" and "for no x ¬p(x)" are the same statement.
18:44:02 <boily> (meanwhile, discovery of the day: youtube videos can go at least up to 1440px wide now.)
18:44:28 <fizzie> I think they do "4k" already.
18:44:54 <fizzie> http://youtube-global.blogspot.fi/2010/07/whats-bigger-than-1080p-4k-video-comes.html
18:45:13 <fizzie> Since 2010, apparently.
18:45:38 <fizzie> But only for the "original" size. Maybe they've added more scaled sizes?
18:45:58 <fizzie> ("1440px wide" doesn't sound terribly impressive, since the 1080p they've done for ages is 1920px wide.)
18:46:58 <boily> hm. seems I can't dimension.
18:48:34 <mroman> exists{0.8} x: hasProperty(x,p) == forall{0.2} x: hasProperty(x,!p)
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18:49:25 <mroman> i.e if to 80% an X exists with P
18:49:25 <Bike> "all x are p" and "no x is p" aren't the only possibilities.
18:49:58 <mroman> then the remaining 20% must mean, that all X must not have property P
18:50:06 <Bike> Maybe one lonely x is ¬p and all the rest are p and shun it.
18:50:10 * elliott thinks you should define what this quant{p} notation means.
18:50:31 <elliott> does (forall{p} x: e) mean that for any given x, there is p probability that e holds of it?
18:50:39 <elliott> or does it mean that there is p probability that for every x e holds?
18:50:44 <Bike> elliott: from context it means the latter.
18:50:54 <mroman> the probability applies to the whole statement
18:50:55 <Bike> it's pretty bad notation though..
18:51:08 <elliott> well, how about not attaching it to the quantifier, if it is unrelated to it?
18:51:31 <mroman> it roughly translates to
18:51:45 <mroman> I'm to 80% certain, that an X exists with property P
18:52:10 <Bike> That's totally different!
18:52:16 <Bike> From either thing elliott said!
18:52:36 <Bike> And from what you said.
18:52:36 <elliott> so (forall{1} n: n = 42) holds over the naturals because I am 100% certain there exists an n with property n = 42...?
18:52:49 <mroman> and therefore, I can say with 20% certainity, that no such X exists
18:53:21 <Bike> Well, yes, if you redo everything like that.
18:53:31 <mroman> which should also mean, that to 20% all X have not property P
18:53:40 <Bike> You're no longer 80% certain that no X exists with ¬p though.
18:54:12 <mroman> Like: I'm 80% certain that all guys are coming to my party
18:54:25 <Bike> that is another different thing!
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18:54:29 <Bike> fucking hell, man.
18:54:50 <Bike> "80% certain that an X exists with property p" would be "I'm 80% certain that at least one of the people coming to my party is a guy"
18:55:02 * elliott decides the answer to your original question is whichever of "yes" or "no" you prefer :P
18:55:05 <mroman> which would be forall{0.8} x: x comes to my party
18:55:26 <mroman> Bike: That's a different statement then
18:55:39 <Bike> yes. that is what i'm saying.
18:55:45 <Bike> you keep changing what everything means.
18:56:46 <mroman> let's go back to the 80% exists, 20% forall
18:56:56 <mroman> If I'm 80% certain that someone comes to my party
18:57:12 <mroman> can I be to 20% certain, that everyone is not coming to my party?
18:58:21 <mroman> That's what my intuition says, at least
18:59:46 <mroman> but I'm not sure if that holds for other stuff
19:00:20 <mroman> i.e I'm 80% certain that in this randomly generated set an element x is zero
19:00:55 <mroman> then to 20% every element in the set is not zero?
19:01:27 <Bike> "this set has at least one zero" and "this set has exactly zero zeroes" are mutually exclusive, so...
19:02:40 <mroman> only one of them can be true
19:03:12 <mroman> "the ball is in the bucket" and "the ball is not in the bucket" are exclusive too
19:03:18 <mroman> but if the ball is in the bucket with 50%
19:03:25 <mroman> then it is also not in the bucket with 50%
19:04:41 <mroman> if it comes to probabilites, i should be able to express everything with notexists
19:05:38 <mroman> exists{0.2} x: x has property p == notexists{0.8} x: x has property p
19:05:52 <nooodl> i think the preferred notation for this is P(...) = 0.8?
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19:06:46 <mroman> but not really practical
19:08:31 <mroman> you can nest them, of course
19:08:44 <mroman> exists{0.2} x: forall{0.3} ...
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19:14:32 <Bike> mroman: the point being that the sum of the probabilities of mutually exlusive events is one, so that solves your "I'm 80% sure" bit.
19:16:42 <Bike> sum of the probabilities of mutually exlusive events that make up the whole probability space.
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19:30:43 <boily> kmc: random question: is your nick related to k-means clustering?
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19:32:37 <Bike> k means clustering of his ancestroy
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19:35:57 <Fiora> Buy Keegan clustering software today! Always remember our motto: Keegan. Means. /Clustering/.
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19:42:40 <boily> beuh. I liked Fiora's version :D
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20:08:27 <Halite> I have the perfect idea for an esoteric schematic - hard to use, erratic syntax, don't know if Turing or not
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20:09:36 <Halite> goes a bit like this: 'GET boolean x, GET boolean y, XOR x y, SEND z
20:10:12 <Slereah> You can't do all logic gates with XOR I think?
20:10:25 <Halite> I don't just allow xor
20:10:39 <Halite> but I think XOR and OR are a set that is turing complete
20:11:10 <Slereah> So OR and XOR probably are too
20:11:22 <Slereah> Probably not too hard to build not from both
20:11:26 <shachaf> Aren't you banned in here?
20:11:42 <Halite> shachaf: I don't remember a ban record.
20:13:16 <Halite> nvm you might've been talking to Slereah
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20:15:56 <boily> elliott: do you remember a ban?
20:16:22 <Halite> I was from #haskell but not sure about here
20:16:55 <Halite> Nobody's took action yet, I'd say we could continue
20:17:00 <elliott> boily: I do not believe so
20:17:02 <nooodl> (a OR b) XOR (a XOR b) == a AND b
20:18:23 <Halite> that's x nor/nand x you're thinking
20:18:24 <nooodl> does a XOR true count?
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20:18:50 <Halite> 0 xor 1 = 1, 1 xor 1 = 0
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20:19:07 <Halite> XOR and OR are a set that are indeed turing complete
20:19:29 <Bike> you mean logically complete.
20:19:40 <Halite> well it's called functionally complete actually
20:19:42 <Slereah> Well if you can do logic gates with it
20:19:50 <Bike> call it that, then.
20:20:16 <Halite> now for type-completeness?
20:20:43 <Halite> e.g. if you can make all types out of a set
20:20:51 <nooodl> isn't "logic gates => TC" kind of a stretch. i mean you need theoretically unbounded storage space and stuff right
20:21:47 <Bike> an unbounded number of gates, if that's what you mean.
20:21:50 <Halite> Turing-completeness can theoretically be checked on turing machines so it's not really a stretch
20:22:10 <Bike> buuuuut logic gates are total.
20:23:19 <Halite> I'm just pondering what operator is abstractly explanatory - as in a TC operator which gives you an abstract sense of the meaning when read
20:23:53 <Halite> e.g. you can't tell what x NAND y NOR z means, so the set {NAND, NOR} isn't 'abstractly explanatory'
20:24:52 <nooodl> what about {NAND} (ps i don't get it either)
20:24:58 <boily> I smell someone trying to out NaniDispense me...
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20:25:16 <Halite> by abstractly explanatory we'll come to examples
20:25:36 <Slereah> All TC things require unboundedness, nooodl
20:25:59 <kmc> in complexity theory one often talks about a family of circuits, one for each input problem size
20:26:10 <Halite> The unofficial operator t(aa, ab, ba, bb, x) is abstractly explanatory where
20:26:26 <kmc> it's required that the whole family can be described by a single log-space turing machine, in order to avoid hiding too much of the work in the family description
20:26:59 <kmc> see for example https://complexityzoo.uwaterloo.ca/Complexity_Zoo:N#nc
20:27:18 <Halite> where t(aa, ab, ba, bb, x, y) = true if x=y=0 and aa, if x=y=1 and bb, if x=1 y=0 and ba, or if x=0 y=1 and ab=1.
20:27:33 <Halite> which is a truth table constructor
20:27:49 <Halite> t(0, 1, 1, 0, x, y) = x xor y
20:27:59 <Bike> That's a multiplexor, no?
20:28:03 <Halite> see the abstractness? xor's truthtable is just that 0, 1, 1, 0
20:28:19 <Halite> Bike: hmm yeah you are right I've made such device in logisim before
20:28:34 <Halite> Bike: by that I mean the t function
20:28:34 <Bike> Multiplexers are, wait for it... functionally complete
20:28:47 <Halite> and also abstractly explanatory
20:28:56 <Bike> Yes. We've found it.
20:29:03 <Halite> as it is official and useful
20:29:11 <Halite> we had it all along though...
20:30:03 * boily stares in beatitude, uncomprehension, derstanding and not having a clue about what's going on.
20:30:22 <kmc> expression-oriented languages with BCPL syntax are weeeeird: https://github.com/mozilla/servo/blob/master/src/components/gfx/buffer_map.rs#L98-L110
20:30:33 <oklofok> i think it's abstractly explanatory what's going on
20:30:37 <Bike> "bcpl syntax"? you're such a fuckin hipster man
20:30:38 <oklofok> you guys are just being dense
20:30:54 <boily> I'm not dense. just hungry.
20:30:58 <augur> kmc: whats weird about the linked code?
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20:31:12 <Halite> What functionally complete and abstractly explanatory set of operators would fit well into a schematic? Hmm multiplexor has too many arguments - I want 2
20:31:38 <Bike> lightbulbs are not functionally complete
20:31:40 <kmc> augur: that the condition of the 'if' is a 5-statement brace-delimeted block with side effects
20:31:53 <Halite> {or, not} -- I previously thought it wasn't but I thought about it
20:31:59 <kmc> Bike: you know i am
20:32:03 <augur> kmc: why is that weird
20:32:07 <Halite> nooodl: not abstractly explanatory - what does x NAND y NAND z mean?
20:32:13 <Bike> look you can't just
20:32:18 <Halite> but or , not seem to be...
20:32:22 <Bike> you can't just say "abstractly explanatory" as if any of us have any fucking clue what you mean
20:32:24 <augur> yeah ok thats weird
20:32:29 <Bike> i mean you can but it's pointless
20:32:36 <augur> not entirely weird, but
20:32:41 <augur> i mean, you can do that in lisp, for instance
20:32:48 <augur> two of the statements are lets so thats not too bad
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20:32:59 <Bike> thankfully, wikipedia has a list of functionally complete sets http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness#Minimal_functionally_complete_operator_sets
20:33:20 <Halite> they sound abstractly explanatory
20:33:33 <Bike> stop using that term god
20:33:38 <kmc> the equivalent in GCC C would be if ( ({ int x = 4; y -= 2; ... }) ) { ... } else { ... }
20:33:48 <kmc> (or maybe one can omit one of those sets of parens)
20:34:00 <Halite> Quick! What is (x and !y) or (!y and x) equal to?
20:34:10 <kmc> augur: right, it's not weird in Lisp because I'm used to Lisp syntax being expression-oriented
20:34:30 <oklofok> Halite: isn't it kind of abstractly explanatory
20:34:32 <Halite> Quick! What is (x and !y) or (!x and y) equal to?
20:34:47 <kmc> augur: but Rust mimics C syntax on a concrete level, while turning statement-blocks into expressions
20:34:49 <Halite> ^^ answer that now, slightly different ^^
20:34:54 <kmc> so there's some dissonance
20:35:29 <kmc> you can also do things like «return 1 + (return 2 + (return 3))»
20:35:40 <Bike> which returns three?
20:36:10 <Bike> was there a particular rationale for rust's syntax?
20:36:25 <kmc> this aspect of it, you mean?
20:36:25 <Halite> I mean, (x and !y) or (!x and y) means: x,y must be true,false (where x and !y = true), or false,true (where !x and y = true) -- ORed together it's obviously x xor y
20:36:42 <oklofok> Halite: if you flip x, it becomes (!x and !y) or (x and y), which is equality. so the original is xor i guess.
20:36:44 <Bike> kmc: just in general, I mean.
20:37:06 <oklofok> i mean that's kind of abstractly explanatory
20:37:25 <Halite> yes it is- and that it explains the truth table is too
20:37:26 <kmc> Bike: I think it's the usual tension between "familiar to C and C++ programmers" and "better"
20:38:03 <kmc> the more you want to do high-level and higher-order stuff, the more expression-oriented syntax is appealing
20:38:07 <kmc> and it's just cleaner in a sense, too
20:38:17 <oklofok> and abstractly explanatory
20:39:01 <kmc> Halite: look, I don't *like* the fact that most languages in use today have C-inspired syntax, but this fact makes it hard to claim that tossing out C syntax entirely will "win"
20:39:05 <Halite> not exactly, if you used a really complicated function f(x, y), you can't look at it and say "ooh, its table is false,true,false,true" or something
20:39:09 <kmc> if your definition of "win" includes anything about people actually using your language
20:39:24 <kmc> I don't love Rust's syntax but it's good enough
20:40:04 <Halite> I think I might make mine a hugely stripped down dialect of Lisp
20:40:11 <Halite> After all, I <3 parenthesis
20:40:12 <Bike> halite have you considered that this concept you're getting at is actually incoherent crap
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20:40:48 <Halite> Bike: have you considered that I have considered that and went no outright?
20:41:02 <Bike> you didn't even think about it?
20:41:21 <mnoqy> what's going on here
20:41:25 <Halite> "Ooh, mysterically hard programming language, let's do it!"
20:41:27 <Bike> Abstract explanation.
20:41:34 <Halite> mysterically = great for being esoteric
20:42:07 <Halite> Bike: 'abstractly explanatory' is just a term I made up. No mentions to it will be given in any other sense.
20:42:49 <nooodl> mnoqy: we're talking about abstractly explanatory sets of boolean functions ☺
20:42:57 <mnoqy> good for communication. now everyone will know what you mean
20:43:21 <Halite> 'abstractly' -> not that basic, in-depth
20:43:28 <Halite> explanatory -> like self-explanatory stuff
20:43:40 <Halite> indepth self-explaining
20:43:48 <mnoqy> nooodl: yeah i saw those words happening a bit up there
20:44:21 <oklofok> mnoqy: abstract explanatority is actually really simple once you get the hang of it; for example consider x NAND y NOR z
20:44:39 <Halite> you can explain "(x and !y) or (!x and y)" - it is only true when x=true y=false or x=false y=true -- it's obvious
20:45:15 <Halite> but it doesn't explain seperate entries in the truth table
20:45:27 <oklofok> as for x NAND y NOR z, you cannot actually explain what the meaning _is_
20:45:36 <oklofok> so it's not abstractly explanatory
20:45:48 <Halite> for "(x and !y) or (!x and y)", "x and !y" is a truth table entity, "!x and y" is a truth table entity.
20:46:28 <oklofok> are we talking about parsing here or what
20:46:39 <Halite> so an operation that expresses ONLY a single truth table entry with a negation and a connection operation
20:46:41 <oklofok> x NAND y NOR z has two conceivable parse trees
20:46:42 <Bike> you're my hero oklofok
20:47:13 <Halite> phew people are beginning to understand it now - are they
20:47:39 <oklofok> Bike: i hi5'd myself so bad when i got the "yes"
20:48:03 <oklofok> Halite: i don't really know what you mean, but i'm somewhat curious as to whether you just mean unambiguous parsing
20:48:22 <Halite> I don't mean unambigous parsing
20:49:01 <Halite> I mean that there is an operation with just one combination for truth, a negation operation, and an operation to sticky the single truth table entites together
20:49:34 <Halite> which are {AND (0,0,0,1), OR (0,1,1,1), NOT (1,0)}
20:49:48 <oklofok> "with just one combination for truth" you mean an operation where only one combination evaluates to 1?
20:50:09 <mnoqy> so are you talking about disjunctive normal form or what
20:50:20 <Halite> what is the disjunctive normal form?
20:50:24 <Bike> talkin bout my baby
20:50:26 <mnoqy> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_normal_form
20:50:55 <Bike> well, earlier halite /was/ trying to describe minterms...
20:51:34 <Halite> Exactly what I was talking about
20:52:01 <oklofok> and here i thought i had you all figured out
20:52:36 <Bike> cool, wikipedia has different articles on disjunctive normal form and canonical normal form for some reaosn.
20:52:51 <Halite> ^^ and I'm glad for it ^^
20:53:44 <Slereah> "Canonical normal form" is the least helpful word ever
20:53:52 <oklofok> was just about to say that
20:54:05 <Slereah> You could basically call it "That thing we use a lot"
20:54:09 <oklofok> i thought the article for "canonical normal form" would be about canonical normal forms in general
20:54:21 <oklofok> or are we talking about the same thing
20:54:29 <Bike> well, it is. but disjunctive and conjunctive are the normal forms that get used most.
20:54:47 <oklofok> for logical formulas maybe
20:54:49 <mnoqy> what about normal canonical form
20:54:50 <Bike> p canonical imo,,,
20:54:54 <oklofok> but other things have canonical normal forms too
20:55:22 <Bike> well "canonical normal form" is restricted to boolean algebra. for... some reason.
20:55:38 <mnoqy> thanks wikipedia, the authority on math's
20:55:38 <Bike> Maybe both articles ar ejust kind of crappy??
20:56:08 <oklofok> i guess i'd just say normal form in most contexts
20:56:22 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_form wow this article is kind of
20:56:49 <oklofok> yeah that's what i thought canonical normal form would be
20:57:38 <HackEgo> normological canoform? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:57:39 <Bike> that wouldn't work for all things, like, in linalg a "normal" matrix means something by itself, so you'd end up with a normal canonical normal matrix or some shit.
20:57:45 <Bike> basically, fuck mat
20:57:50 <Slereah> So I am doing some functional esolang thing
20:58:05 <Slereah> Should I only define all the arguments once
20:58:25 <Slereah> Inside the function definition
20:58:34 <Slereah> For a big vector thing of arguments
20:58:38 <Bike> sounds suspiciously like math
20:58:44 <Slereah> I can extract them all since I have a projection function
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20:59:34 <mnoqy> what do you mean by "should" you?
20:59:55 <Halite> I <3 disjunctive normal forms.
21:00:00 <Slereah> It is the way µ recursive functions are defined, technically
21:00:13 <Slereah> You have to always use all arguments for every operation in the function
21:00:15 <myname> Halite: that would make a great t-shirt
21:00:18 <Slereah> And select one by the projection
21:00:45 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_form_(natural_deduction) awesome
21:01:07 <mnoqy> Slereah: what do you mean by good idea!
21:01:36 <Slereah> mnoqy : Will I one day wake up covered in sweat in my bed tormented by the demons of what could have been
21:01:50 <mnoqy> in that case you can just change the spec
21:01:51 <Halite> there are 11 kinds of people in the world: those who don't understand DNF.
21:02:11 <Slereah> Also I will implement it via trees
21:02:18 <Slereah> Will it help the implementation or not
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21:02:58 <mnoqy> how am i supposed to answer if i don't know what the question means!
21:03:17 <Slereah> Use your woman's intuition
21:03:34 <Slereah> I mean, some things, sometimes
21:03:42 <Slereah> You just know it will not be a good idea
21:03:49 <Slereah> The guy who did Malbolge should have asked
21:04:52 <Halite> What kind of formula do you get when you make a simple conversion method from a multiplexor setup to a formula of boolean algebra? I know now -- its my favourite question
21:05:26 <Halite> FireFly: A DNF (disjunctive normal form) formula.
21:05:37 <Bike> forma forma fo forma
21:06:36 <Halite> NOT operations would have most precedence, AND would have second precedence and OR the lowest.
21:06:49 <Halite> I bet that could be the standard too.
21:07:25 <FireFly> I think that's fairly common, yes
21:07:29 <Bike> now, what kind of logic normal form do you get from a butterfly shifter.
21:07:47 <Halite> you get a palindromic one
21:07:56 <Halite> because butterflies are symmetric
21:08:21 <Halite> and palindromes are horizontally symmetric
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21:14:14 <Halite> Now what behaviour of {or, and, not} under object inputs would be most like a possible 'DNF' for object input?
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21:20:49 <Halite> I was thinking "make this a bit like Lisp" and I find myself now rejecting parenthesis
21:26:16 <Halite> I'm finding myself calling false a dummy name for ¬true...
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21:36:16 <Halite> lol I've been able to call nil neither truish nor falsy
21:37:44 <kmc> @oeis 0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4
21:37:57 <lambdabot> 1's-counting sequence: number of 1's in binary expansion of n (or the binary...
21:38:27 <Halite> @oeis 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8
21:38:32 <lambdabot> Fibonacci numbers: F(n) = F(n-1) + F(n-2) with F(0) = 0 and F(1) = 1.[0,1,1,...
21:39:46 <mnoqy> it wouldn't be a very good oeis without fibo's now would it
21:39:49 <Bike> oh, i like cloitre's way of constructing the 1s counting.
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21:41:03 <Bike> @oeis 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 8
21:41:08 <lambdabot> Hofstadter Q-sequence: a(1) = a(2) = 1; a(n) = a(n-a(n-1)) + a(n-a(n-2)) for...
21:41:47 <Halite> I made it time out with a simple sequence.
21:41:52 <Halite> @oeis 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2
21:41:52 <lambdabot> n mod 3.[0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0,1,2,0...
21:42:11 <Halite> [21:39] <Halite> @oeis 1, 2, 0, 1, 2, 0, 1, 2 [21:39] <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
21:42:31 <Halite> @oeis 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1
21:42:51 <kmc> @run iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs)) [0]
21:42:59 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
21:43:00 <lambdabot> [[0],[0,1],[0,1,1,2],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4],[0...
21:43:05 <kmc> why am I having trouble translating this to give the final result only, with 'fix'...
21:44:29 <Bike> > fix (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs))
21:44:40 <Bike> a good fixed point
21:45:53 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
21:46:29 <kmc> the least fixed point
21:46:31 <Taneb> > scanl (+) 0 [1..]
21:46:32 <lambdabot> [0,1,3,6,10,15,21,28,36,45,55,66,78,91,105,120,136,153,171,190,210,231,253,...
21:46:34 <kmc> and yet the greatest
21:47:09 <Taneb> > scanl (+) $ repeat 1
21:47:11 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
21:47:19 <Taneb> > scanl (+) 0 $ repeat 1
21:47:20 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
21:47:37 <Taneb> Wait, this isn't the result at all
21:47:45 <Bike> > iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs)) [1]
21:47:46 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,2],[1,2,2,3],[1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4],[1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5],[1...
21:48:12 <Taneb> Halite, this is like the haskelliest channel that doesn't begin with an h or a d
21:48:13 <Halite> Haskell is a nightmare. It distorted my knowledge of data types
21:48:22 <drlemon> What does glogbot do? EgoBot? HackEgo? (That's also a bot right?)
21:48:29 <drlemon> I know someone who's learning haskell.
21:48:39 <Bike> glog does logs.
21:48:52 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, jconn ) , blsqbot !
21:48:53 <kmc> Haskell is a nightmare from which you can never truly awake
21:49:01 <Bike> &help to your heart's content
21:49:07 <Halite> I like some of the concepts in Haskell but it's not really my cup of tea
21:49:19 <Halite> Lua's far better in my opinion
21:49:34 <kmc> Halite: i prefer tea and cheesecake
21:49:40 <Halite> and I don't mean just because some desktop powder game-like thing has a Lua API.
21:49:50 <kmc> powder game
21:49:54 <Bike> > iterate (\(a,b) -> (a+b,a)) (0,0)
21:49:55 <lambdabot> [(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0,0),(0...
21:50:04 <Bike> why did i expect that to work.
21:50:06 <Bike> > iterate (\(a,b) -> (a+b,a)) (0,1)
21:50:08 <lambdabot> [(0,1),(1,0),(1,1),(2,1),(3,2),(5,3),(8,5),(13,8),(21,13),(34,21),(55,34),(...
21:50:20 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:50:32 <Taneb> drlemon, glogbot is a logger, EgoBot has a bunch of interpreters for esolangs, HackEgo is actually a linux system (don't bother trying to break it)
21:50:42 <Taneb> drlemon, fungot is a markov chain AI written in Befunge
21:50:42 <fungot> Taneb: i am trying to make some progress. we don't have bgp turned off in the end, those two in no particular order.
21:50:55 <fungot> drlemon: i didn't get it :) i'm sorry, i don't remember it, and you're trying to find
21:51:21 <Halite> > onceagain make Halite haskelllover
21:51:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: `onceagain'Not in scope: `make'
21:51:31 <mnoqy> remember what happened last time you did that
21:51:43 <Halite> (Remembers off the back of my head)
21:51:44 <drlemon> What languages does EgoBot have?
21:51:54 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:51:58 <Bike> !help languages
21:51:58 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
21:51:59 <Halite> Must... resist... the... urge...
21:52:20 <drlemon> Dear god what does it look like when someone sends a befunge program to the channel
21:52:31 <Taneb> drlemon, metasepia is a little utilities bot, and jconn I think is a J interpreter
21:52:48 <Bike> kmc: now stuck thinking of analogies between dynamic systems and iterated functions. V_V
21:52:50 <Halite> EgoBot is often disposited to support Haskell
21:53:09 -!- impomatic has quit (Client Quit).
21:53:12 <drlemon> Someone make EgoBot run a befunge program, i need to see what this looks like
21:53:33 <kmc> Bike: like iterated function systems?
21:54:15 <Bike> yeah. since the problem here is basically finding the limit set of the orbit from a given initial condition.
21:54:17 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iterated_function_system i like the two pictures at the top
21:54:28 <kmc> like, it's so cool that you can get from the first to the second with a few generalizations & tricks
21:54:42 <Bike> > iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (+1) xs)) [1,7,19]
21:54:43 <lambdabot> [[1,7,19],[1,7,19,2,8,20],[1,7,19,2,8,20,2,8,20,3,9,21],[1,7,19,2,8,20,2,8,...
21:56:08 <Bike> eugh, and /now/ i feel bad about not finishing my real analysis book, thaks wikipedia
21:56:43 <fizzie> `interp befunge 025*"!dlrow ,olleH">:#,_@
21:56:57 <fizzie> (That's more or less equivalent to EgoBot !befunge, I guess?)
21:57:04 <fizzie> (Except that it works.)
21:58:59 <Taneb> FireFly, it's a weird BF game, closer to Core Wars than BFJoust
21:59:02 <kmc> Bike: we can feel bad about stuff together
21:59:10 <fizzie> FireFly: FukYorBrane is the keyword to look up.
21:59:12 <FireFly> I guess I'll just ignore it
21:59:20 <FireFly> Oh, I think I've seen that on the wiki long ago
21:59:41 <fizzie> I don't think it's terribly popular.
22:00:08 <FireFly> a corewarsy befunge game might be fun
22:00:53 <fizzie> I think that was proposed.
22:01:16 -!- Effilry has joined.
22:01:38 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2).
22:01:41 <fizzie> "BeGlad (Befunge Gladiators) is more like Core Wars; Programs written in a modified version of Befunge-97 actually attack within Befunge-space itself, trying to force the other program to run out of processes and die."
22:01:44 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly.
22:02:44 <Halite> run out of processes and die
22:03:54 <Bike> :t fix iterate
22:03:55 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 = [a0]
22:03:55 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> a0
22:03:55 <lambdabot> Actual type: (a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> [a0]
22:14:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
22:15:17 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:19:59 -!- Uguubee111118 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:20:48 <lambdabot> No instance for (Data.Typeable.Internal.Typeable a0)
22:21:02 <FireFly> Yeah, it's broken. Bike tried to fix it
22:21:13 <Bike> Yes. That is what happened.
22:21:59 <Halite> wait, so iterate shows all the steps in an array?
22:22:06 <Halite> that's cooler than when fixed
22:22:48 <FireFly> It repeatedly runs a function on a value, yes
22:23:01 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> t))
22:23:17 <Halite> but it shows all the steps and the current array at each step
22:23:23 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
22:24:00 <lambdabot> [1,3,9,27,81,243,729,2187,6561,19683,59049,177147,531441,1594323,4782969,14...
22:24:11 <kmc> Halite: it's a list not an array
22:24:25 <Bike> > ( fix (\f xs -> let ys = (xs ++ (map (1+) xs)) in ys ++ f ys)) [0] -- well, i'm getting there.
22:24:26 <lambdabot> [0,1,0,1,1,2,0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,0,1,1,2,1,2,2,...
22:24:33 <kmc> Halite: yeah
22:25:16 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Classes.Ord ((a0 -> a0) -> a0 -> [a0]))
22:25:19 <kmc> arrays are fixed size and contiguous in memory; lists are linked lists
22:25:25 <FireFly> Halite: nope, that's an error. Sorry.
22:25:35 <kmc> these are kind of implementation details but really not, because they affect the API
22:25:45 -!- shikhin_ has joined.
22:25:55 <kmc> > iterate (<3)
22:25:56 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Num.Num GHC.Types.Bool)
22:26:09 <Halite> Enter a number n from 1 to 6 followed by <3. It will tell you if n loves you or not.
22:27:33 <kmc> if you have «instance Num Bool where { fromInteger 0 = False; fromInteger _ = True }» then «iterate (<3) 0» gives [False,True,False,True,False,True,...]
22:28:23 -!- Uguubee111118 has joined.
22:28:48 <kmc> what is meant by "?"
22:29:06 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:29:36 <Halite> It means 6 <3 ? false : true
22:29:53 <Halite> aka. 6, do you love me? False or true?
22:30:12 <kmc> this is dumb
22:32:28 <kmc> http://koryos.tumblr.com/post/63659581034/stuckinabucket-camwyn-sci-universe
22:32:29 <kmc> http://24.media.tumblr.com/1780b04cff1c23275f2c6ca0defbc6b2/tumblr_mu8ulbVfYC1qmvxavo3_1280.jpg
22:32:47 <Bike> at least i think that's what that is
22:33:01 <kmc> a beautiful tiny sea creature which eats Portuguese man o' war to steal its stinging cells
22:34:53 <Halite> we need to implement integers to implement integers into my schematic
22:34:56 <Bike> hm, nope, shame.
22:38:59 <Halite> I have a really tough goal to accomplish with my schematic
22:39:27 <Halite> Not only to implement it one day, but only with booleans and pairs (two-element tables indexed with booleans).
22:40:37 <Halite> ah nvm you are probably taking me serious anyway
22:41:13 <kmc> i don't care enough to take it seriously or not
22:45:06 <Halite> I just found myself thinking that pairs are functions and are DNFs.
22:48:38 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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22:50:23 <kmc> yeah product types and function types are the same thing in dependently typed systems
22:50:42 <Halite> I don't have the programming abilities to make an interpreter of this schematic
22:50:50 <Halite> Can someone help me when it gets finished
22:54:23 <Halite> lol now functions are arrays are classes...
22:55:48 <oerjan> myname: the 01 and 10 trick depends on the fact that you can only have those occuring alternating with each other.
22:56:26 <oerjan> so the difference in number can never exceed 1.
22:57:54 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:58:01 * oerjan needs to stop assuming people are present just because they're here.
22:58:32 -!- augur has joined.
22:58:54 <oerjan> @tell myname the 01 and 10 trick depends on the fact that you can only have those occuring alternating with each other. so the difference in number can never exceed 1.
23:00:07 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
23:00:46 <oerjan> @tell olsner <olsner> "<oerjan> `addquote <ion> olsner: " <-- that quote doesn't really need to include me <-- we don't approve of misquoting irc lines in these here parts.
23:00:51 -!- Koen_ has joined.
23:03:25 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:05:07 -!- `^_^v has joined.
23:08:06 <Halite> It takes me so long to write a few functions down...
23:08:37 <Halite> I've only got 25 lines total and only 12 that actually show functions
23:14:50 <oerjan> <Halite> but I think XOR and OR are a set that is turing complete <-- time to check out the old https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post%27s_lattice
23:15:27 <oerjan> or maybe to notice that you cannot get true/1 unless you have them to start with.
23:18:16 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:18:47 <oerjan> in fact the diagram shows that or, xor (denoted V, +) generate P_0, which is every boolean function which has the property that you cannot get 1 without putting one in.
23:18:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
23:18:54 -!- sebbu has joined.
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23:19:11 <oerjan> (diagram about midway in the article.)
23:20:39 <oerjan> it takes a while to learn to read that.
23:20:53 <Halite> I have definition of variables, constants, operators, functions, arrays and classes. Do I need more?
23:21:57 <kmc> maybe you don't need to liveblog every single step of writing this program here
23:22:27 <Halite> I was thinking that myself
23:23:23 -!- yorick has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:24:44 <Halite> ok but I do need to know if I need more in my schematic
23:24:55 <kmc> i don't know what you're trying to accomplish
23:25:00 <kmc> or even what you mean by "schematic"
23:25:05 <kmc> it's a language you're designing?
23:25:15 <Halite> a schematic is a programming language lower level than assembly
23:25:35 <oerjan> circuit design, i take it.
23:25:51 <kmc> a "schematic" would be a specification for a particular circuit
23:25:56 <kmc> you're designing a language for writing schematics
23:26:15 <Halite> someone told me it was a language lower than assembly
23:26:22 <Halite> it could've been higher than circuits
23:26:22 <kmc> people say a lot of things
23:26:45 <kmc> "circuit" could mean a lot of things... a circuit of logic gates is very different from a [Dcircuit of electrical components
23:26:52 <kmc> ignore that [D
23:26:54 * kmc kicks irssi
23:29:39 <Phantom_Hoover> <Halite> a schematic is a programming language lower level than assembly
23:29:51 <Bike> did you need to quote that
23:30:01 <Phantom_Hoover> interestingly ais523 already made a language 'lower-level' than assembly
23:30:13 <Bike> @google esolang checkout
23:30:15 <Halite> did it involve anything other than booleans?
23:30:20 <Bike> alas, it's totally impossible to understand.
23:30:23 <Phantom_Hoover> on the basis that actual machine code is highly abstracted from the way CPUs actually work these days
23:30:53 <Halite> they work with lots of gates, and LOTS
23:31:18 <Halite> and multiplexers excetra excetra
23:31:22 <Bike> they're not really designed on the gate level.
23:31:40 <Phantom_Hoover> what you're talking about is not really 'lower-level' than assembly anyway, it's a parallel hierarchy
23:31:58 <Bike> Because how would you describe something like caching or pipelining in turns of gates?
23:32:04 <Bike> and more importantly, why would you.
23:32:27 <Bike> It would be like describing an animal in terms of electron orbitals. Pointless, misleading, and honestly, wrong.
23:33:18 <Phantom_Hoover> there's... you have a misconception here, where you think that designing a new chip is 'low-level'
23:33:31 <Halite> assembly is built on new chips :D
23:33:42 <FireFly> I think Halite should write a Feather implementation for us
23:33:50 <Bike> The same assembly language can run on multiple microarchitectures.
23:33:52 <Bike> Scandalous, I know.
23:33:54 <FireFly> Although that language is arguably on the other end of the spectrum
23:33:56 <kmc> Bike: you can describe those things in terms of gates, for a notion of "gates" which includes stateful things as well
23:34:07 * kmc casts Summon Fiora
23:34:17 <Bike> what level spell is that? zzo?
23:34:27 <Halite> to be honest lower-than-assembly languages with classes... wtf is wrong with me
23:34:40 <Bike> maybe she did.
23:34:53 <Fiora> um um I'm not sure where to start on that
23:34:59 <Bike> explain the basis of modern life over irc to a stranger
23:35:13 <kmc> hey Halite you should a) learn to be quieter, b) do the projects from http://6004.mit.edu/
23:35:15 <Fiora> um the DNA is connected to the, RNA
23:35:20 <Fiora> the RNA is connected to the, proteins
23:35:21 <kmc> in which you design a CPU at the gate level
23:35:24 <kmc> including pipelining
23:35:30 -!- augur has joined.
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23:35:46 <Bike> clearly it's time for me to talk about how silly the central dogma is
23:35:48 <Fiora> you asked for the basis of modern life!!
23:36:34 -!- augur_ has joined.
23:36:42 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:37:58 <Bike> hm. i actually don't know how i'd explain 'life'. kind of an interesting question.
23:39:02 <Bike> maybe just start with fungi. that way i can have kmc do the hard part of intro and i can just follow up.
23:39:56 <Bike> i guess the problem is that fungi aren't autotrophs. and neither are viruses, by virtue of not being anythingtrophs
23:40:30 <Halite> computers are entirely based on ram and rom
23:40:44 <Halite> I don't even see or, and, not operations
23:40:46 <Phantom_Hoover> so is a fungus that feeds on vessels for animal feed called a troughtroph
23:41:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Fiora, you see the scale of the problem re Halite here
23:41:13 <Bike> instead you get ridiculousities of grammar like "mixotroph"
23:41:37 <kmc> Halite like... read a book or something
23:41:58 <Bike> halite's actually illiterate and irc-ing through voice recognition (thanks fizzie)
23:42:04 <kmc> what do you mean that computers are based on RAM and ROM and not logic gates?
23:42:09 <Halite> ok I am redoing it all
23:42:13 <kmc> they have loads of logic gates
23:42:26 <Bike> is that a biplane
23:42:26 <kmc> (also you can implement a logic gate with a small RAM, which is how FPGAs work)
23:42:29 <Halite> and I just deleted my language too
23:42:41 <Halite> kmc: and a multiplexer
23:42:54 <Bike> the circle of stupidity.
23:42:56 <mnoqy> ram comes in many exciting flavours
23:43:06 <kmc> static RAM is basically logic gates
23:43:10 <Bike> lemme blow your mind here: a ram is a multiplexer??
23:43:19 <kmc> dynamic RAM works by storing charge in a capacitor
23:43:28 <Bike> with flip flops or whatever.
23:43:41 <Bike> my biology class actually started with population biology.
23:43:49 <kmc> but some people would use "logic gates" to mean purely combinational logic, which would exclude any RAM because it's stateful
23:44:06 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o kmc.
23:44:12 -!- kmc has kicked Halite come back when you're not bouncing off the walls.
23:44:16 <pikhq> kmc: Though IMO if you discuss "gates" you're meaning "things analogous to circuits".
23:44:17 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -o kmc.
23:44:25 <Bike> ok, well, sorry for going on with that.
23:44:28 <pikhq> Which end up necessarily being stateful.
23:44:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i kind of like how the 'standard' view of low-level computing is totally wrong
23:44:37 -!- Halite has joined.
23:44:41 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: Oh?
23:44:49 <kmc> wow Halite learned self control in 15 seconds
23:44:54 <Halite> Just quiet me and I'll tell you when I've finished
23:45:01 <kmc> Teach Yourself To Exist In Society In 24 Hours
23:45:19 <Bike> pikhq: see, now i want a computing substrate that uses gauss's law and other electrodynamics instead of "just" idealized circuits.
23:45:42 <nooodl> Halite: that's kinda what kmc just did! you were supposed to come back when finished
23:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> well like, as various people have just been saying it doesn't all reduce to logic gates on silicon
23:45:47 <Bike> you got some kinda problem with integrals pikhq??
23:45:59 <pikhq> I just dislike computing them.
23:46:03 <Bike> relatedly you know what's really weird? the way coulomb's law is an empirical one.
23:46:06 <Bike> like, what the heck
23:46:10 <Phantom_Hoover> and then there's the fact that 'machine' code is essentially a heavily interpreted language
23:46:31 <Halite> I don't like kicks nooodl. I prefer +q.
23:46:32 <Phantom_Hoover> you can derive coulomb's law from maxwell's equations can't you
23:46:54 <nooodl> what's an empirical law?
23:47:28 <Bike> gauss's law is part of maxwell's equations, right?
23:47:55 <pikhq> Yeah, it's pretty funny that essentially all ISAs are just abstractions around stuff.
23:48:01 <pikhq> *Especially* on x86.
23:49:17 <kmc> Halite: I don't think what you like is very relevant in this situation.
23:49:25 <Bike> well i mean, what's the basis of gauss's law? just, hey, we checked and things work like this.
23:49:34 <Bike> I guess it's the same for kinematics too.
23:49:48 <pikhq> Bike: Welcome to empiricism.
23:50:13 <kmc> Halite: anyway I will take you coming back as an indication that you learned very quickly how to control yourself, which is great if true, but if I kick you again it'll be a ban
23:50:18 <kmc> so be careful
23:50:23 <Bike> well, after some abstraction, i guess, sure.
23:51:27 <Bike> I'm just used to physics being "OK here's this rule, which works because of some things involving smaller things that we'll go over in the next level class", so it's weird that coulomb's law is just... the end.
23:51:28 <mnoqy> in which science is a load of balogna. why can't we create a universe with nice laws and live in it instead of trying to model this confusing heap of junk
23:51:43 <Halite> kmc: But sometimes I do need to ask questions about what's coming and nobody thinks twice
23:52:06 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, well like i said gauss' law seems to be considered more 'fundamental' these days
23:52:07 <kmc> Halite: but you lose that privilege by annoying people
23:52:16 <kmc> which is all the more reason for you to cease your annoying behavior
23:52:36 <Halite> I hope you know, kmc, that I don't want to be annoying.
23:52:38 <kmc> it's not like being +q would allow you to ask questions either............
23:52:39 <Bike> mnoqy: iunno, "flux through a surface is proportional to the charge in the surface" isn't so bad as laws go.
23:52:54 <Phantom_Hoover> since a) it works better with non-point charges and b) you can derive coulomb's law from it with a dirac delta and spherical symmetry
23:52:56 <kmc> Halite: i'm glad
23:52:59 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: they're like, you can prove one from the other, right
23:53:32 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah, although you'll need to poke at coulomb's a bit to cover the full range of stuff gauss' covers
23:53:47 <Bike> for my next "i'm high as hell and don't know physics" question, imo what's the deal with multiple time dimensions??
23:54:29 <Bike> I don't know, like, what would that even mean.
23:54:33 <mnoqy> there can't be that many deals can there? how about all of them
23:54:33 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess you can add extra negative terms into the minkowski metric
23:54:39 <Bike> Some physicists seem to have some idea but I sure don't.
23:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember something interesting about that but i forgot what it was
23:54:59 <Bike> Oh, Wikipedia has an article.
23:55:25 <Bike> And it says exactly what you just said! GOod job.
23:56:22 <Bike> but i was thinking of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-time#Privileged_character_of_3.2B1_spacetime
23:58:40 -!- Halite has left.
23:58:59 <Bike> But like I see stuff like "For example, when N < 3, nerves cannot cross without intersecting." and think "well aren't you uncreative"
23:59:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if the poor fuckers realised what they were getting into when they started investigating it
23:59:36 -!- Halite has joined.
23:59:45 <Bike> which fuckers exactly