00:00:04 <Bike> hm, maybe this paper from 1917 will enlighten me!!
00:00:08 <Phantom_Hoover> whoever started writing about nerves being unable to cross
00:00:27 <Bike> what are they getting into
00:00:59 <Bike> mnoqy: hey what's that book on foundations or whatever that's under git
00:01:16 <mnoqy> the homotopy type theory one?
00:01:19 <Bike> yeah that thanks
00:01:33 <mnoqy> http://homotopytypetheory.org/book/ this one
00:02:27 <Bike> googling "hott book" gets you pinups
00:02:27 <Bike> should have expected that tbh
00:03:32 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone actually know what it has to do with homotopy
00:05:54 <mnoqy> they talk about it in the book
00:06:06 <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
00:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember paths were involved but i don't remember that helping
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00:34:24 <oerjan> > fix $ (1:).tail.(<**>[id,succ])
00:34:25 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,6,2,3,3,4,3,...
00:34:48 <kmc> :t (<**>[id,succ])
00:34:55 <kmc> > (<**>[id,succ]) "hello"
00:35:21 <kmc> oh interleaved, interesting
00:35:30 <kmc> > (<**>[id,succ]) [0,1,1,2]
00:35:32 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f (a -> b) -> f b
00:36:17 <kmc> huh so you can get this sequence by repeatedly concat'ing the succ'd sequence OR by repeatedly interleaving the succ'd sequence
00:36:20 <kmc> that's interesting
00:39:29 <nooodl> > fix $ (False:).tail.(<**>[id,not])
00:39:30 <lambdabot> [False,True,True,False,True,False,False,True,True,False,False,True,False,Tr...
00:42:41 <oerjan> kmc: it's basically the difference between counting bits in little-endian or big-endian order
00:43:23 <kmc> oerjan: hm, yeah
00:43:48 <Bike> oerjan: how would you do it with concat?
00:43:52 <oerjan> nooodl: yeah that's thue-morse, which is just the (inversed) parity of kmc's sequence
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00:45:58 <oerjan> oh wait kmc _did_ start his sequence at 0, it was Bike who changed that to 1. so scratch "(inversed)"
00:46:22 <Bike> oh,i was just testing initial conditions.
00:46:40 <Bike> > fix $ ([4,6,3]++).tail.(<**>[id,succ])
00:46:47 <Bike> > fix $ ([4,6,3]++).tail.(<**>[id,succ])
00:46:50 <lambdabot> [4,6,3,5,6,7,3,4,5,6,6,7,7,8,3,4,4,5,5,6,6,7,6,7,7,8,7,8,8,9,3,4,4,5,4,5,5,...
00:47:01 <nooodl> > (!!4) $ iterate (\x -> x ++ [map succ $ concat x]) [[0]]
00:47:02 <lambdabot> [[0],[1],[1,2],[1,2,2,3],[1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4]]
00:47:07 <Bike> that's... is that the same
00:47:21 <oerjan> Bike: your adjustment makes no sense with my method.
00:47:47 <Bike> pshaw, expecting i'd at all understand something before hitting it with a tastefully tasseled wrench.
00:48:25 <Bike> I want a function that takes a list and gives you the result of infinite iterations of (\xs -> xs ++ (map (1+) xs)).
00:48:31 <nooodl> > concat $ fix $ ([0]:).(\x -> x ++ [map succ $ concat x])
00:48:32 <lambdabot> [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,...
00:48:35 <Bike> or generalize that, who fuckin cares.
00:48:39 <Bike> fuck everything. fuck everybody
00:48:54 <Bike> I'm ahead of the curve, thefuc-related curve
00:50:04 <Bike> in other words, a fixed point combinator that doesn't give bottom all the fucking time.
00:50:18 <nooodl> Bike: take the diagonal of "iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map (1+) xs)) start". imo optimized??
00:50:45 <nooodl> that's gotta be like O(2^n^n^n)
00:51:10 <Bike> now let me take a few minutes to work out how to write diagnoal :V
00:51:56 <nooodl> does that work?? i'm pretty tired
00:52:16 <nooodl> > zipWith (!!) [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8,9]] [0..]
00:52:23 <oerjan> > let f l = (+) <$> l <*> (fix $ (0:).tail.(<**>[id,succ])) in f [4,6,3]
00:52:24 <lambdabot> [4,5,5,6,5,6,6,7,5,6,6,7,6,7,7,8,5,6,6,7,6,7,7,8,6,7,7,8,7,8,8,9,5,6,6,7,6,...
00:53:03 <oerjan> > let f l = (+) <$> (fix $ (0:).tail.(<**>[id,succ])) <*> l in f [4,6,3]
00:53:05 <lambdabot> [4,6,3,5,7,4,5,7,4,6,8,5,5,7,4,6,8,5,6,8,5,7,9,6,5,7,4,6,8,5,6,8,5,7,9,6,6,...
00:53:55 <nooodl> > let xs = [4,6,3] ++ map (1+) xs in xs
00:53:56 <lambdabot> [4,6,3,5,7,4,6,8,5,7,9,6,8,10,7,9,11,8,10,12,9,11,13,10,12,14,11,13,15,12,1...
00:54:09 <nooodl> ah. yes. ok i really need to go to bed
00:54:19 <Bike> > fix (\f get xss -> (get.head xss):(f (get.tail) (tail xss))) head [[1,2,3],[4,5,6],[7,8.9]]
00:54:20 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type `a0 -> [c0]' with actual type `[t0]'Couldn't m...
00:54:28 <Bike> it's cool how i'm the worst programmer ever.
00:55:22 <Bike> > zipWith (!!) ((\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0]) [0..]
00:55:23 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Show.Show c0)
00:55:23 <lambdabot> arising from a use of `M1104756188.sh...
00:55:38 <Bike> ((\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0])
00:55:42 <Bike> > ((\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0])
00:55:44 <nooodl> at least i'm a worse biologist!
00:55:57 <Bike> > (iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0])
00:55:58 <lambdabot> [[0],[0,1],[0,1,1,2],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3],[0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4],[0...
00:56:01 <Bike> right. yeah. wow.
00:56:10 <Bike> > zipWith (!!) (iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0]) [0..]
00:56:12 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
00:56:36 <Bike> @let diagonal ls = zipWith (!!) ls [0..]
00:56:48 <Bike> > diagonal $ iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0..]
00:56:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,...
00:57:00 <Bike> imo i'm a genius ;_;
00:57:24 <Bike> let's check oeis
00:57:28 <Bike> @oeis 0,1,2,3,4,5,6
00:57:37 <lambdabot> Digital sum (i.e. sum of digits) of n; also called digsum(n).[0,1,2,3,4,5,6,...
00:57:56 <kmc> digital bath
00:58:49 <Bike> oeis should sort by kolmogorov complexity to avoid this sort of thing
00:58:55 <Bike> > diagonal [[1,2],[3,4]]
00:59:16 <Bike> ok what did i... oh, well, wow.
00:59:21 <Bike> > diagonal $ iterate (\xs -> xs ++ (map succ xs)) [0]
00:59:25 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
00:59:25 <Bike> yeah, ok, go me.
01:00:17 <Sgeo> According to Oleg, zippers are delimited continuations. Not entirely sure what that means, but I wonder what implications there are for lenses
01:00:45 <Bike> i wonder what implications there are for uzbekistan's human rights situation.
01:01:51 <oerjan> > concat . fix $ ([0]:) . map (map succ . concat) . tail . inits
01:01:52 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
01:02:18 <oerjan> someone asked about using concat.
01:02:28 <Bike> not exactly what i had in mind, but whatever.
01:02:47 <Bike> > concat . fix (([8,0,3]:) . map (map succ . concat) . tail . inits)
01:02:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[[t0]]' with `a0 -> [[a1]]'
01:03:20 <oerjan> i recommend keeping the $
01:03:28 <Bike> > concat . fix $ ([8,0,3]:) . map (map succ . concat) . tail . inits
01:03:29 <lambdabot> [8,0,3,9,1,4,9,1,4,10,2,5,9,1,4,10,2,5,10,2,5,11,3,6,9,1,4,10,2,5,10,2,5,11...
01:03:39 <Bike> ah this one works. Good Job
01:04:02 <Bike> > concat . fix $ ([8,0,3]:) . map (tail . concat) . tail . inits
01:04:03 <lambdabot> [8,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,0,3,...
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01:06:14 <oerjan> > concat . fix $ ([0]:) . scanl (++) . map (map succ)
01:06:15 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type `[[[b0]]] -> [[[b0]]]' with `[[b0]]'
01:07:05 <oerjan> > concat . fix $ ([0]:) . scanl1 (++) . map (map succ)
01:07:07 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,1,2,2,3,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,1,2,2,3,2,3,3,4,2,3,3,4,3,4,4,5,1,2,2,3,2,...
01:07:59 <oerjan> less duplication of work
01:08:09 <Bike> highly efficient
01:17:07 <kmc> http://da-data.blogspot.kr/2013/03/optimistic-cuckoo-hashing-for.html
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01:57:12 <Koen_> "Now the secret can be revealed: IO is a monad. Being a monad means you have access to some syntactical sugar with the do notation."
02:00:53 <oerjan> time to write your monad tutorial "Monads are like what did I say"
02:04:06 <oerjan> what is with wikipedia's "george" theme
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02:12:31 <oerjan> ok https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Today%27s_featured_article#The_week_of_George.3F
02:12:44 <oerjan> i recall the Eagles, too.
02:16:52 <oerjan> finally girl genius updated
02:17:13 <oerjan> giant statues of agatha: check
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02:26:15 <Sgeo> Is Dream a Little Dream a good episode?
02:28:37 <doesthiswork> I wonder why they build the giant agatha statues
02:30:29 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i think gil got a little crazier in the time that has passed
02:31:10 <oerjan> he's _really_ obsessing about her now.
02:32:08 <oerjan> well old klaus said he had used a different form of mind control on him, which would mean he is _not_ wasp infected
02:32:17 <oerjan> assuming that was true.
02:33:06 <oerjan> klaus also made it _look_ like gil is infected, but that was clearly fake, because the weasel critter did not react to _klaus_ and we _know_ he is infected.
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02:33:49 <oerjan> that's my reasoning, anyway.
02:34:19 <oerjan> but with all the Other clones running around, who knows what has happened in the meantime.
02:36:20 <oerjan> also at the time that happened, there hadn't been time enough to make a new spark-infecting wasp, i assume. presumably there will have been now, so he could have been infected later.
02:37:13 <oerjan> otoh with the empire collapsed the Other might not really care what gil does any more.
02:37:54 <oerjan> any way i was just satisfied that my guess last week that there would be giant statues was correct :)
02:38:31 <oerjan> also i'm monologuing, which means it's time for...
02:38:37 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
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03:31:49 <shachaf> kmc: There, it's clearly on-topic here.
04:02:40 <kmc> perhaps hash will fix etc.
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04:10:17 <shachaf> kmc: so when you do new Foo[n] and Foo is a POD type gcc won't store n
04:10:48 <shachaf> can you do that with templates in a reasonable way
04:11:19 -!- kmc has set topic: ewige blumenkraft | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
04:12:01 <kmc> with http://www.cplusplus.com/reference/type_traits/is_pod/ i imagine
04:16:04 <kmc> Boost has had them for a while
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05:04:22 <kmc> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-24707337 "Russia: Hidden chips 'launch spam attacks from irons'"
05:10:10 <Halite[tired]> How do I generalize a shifting pattern ((0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e,f) then (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,a,b,c,d,e,f,0)) in a ROM to any number of address and/or data bits?
05:11:35 <kmc> generally the patterns in a ROM aren't represented specially
05:12:00 <Halite[tired]> How do I generalize it so I can calculate the pattern for 64 address bits and 32 data bits?
05:12:02 <kmc> you just have a pile of bits
05:12:07 <kmc> what pattern?
05:12:32 <kmc> what does that pattern have to do with ROMs?
05:12:58 <Halite[tired]> well I have a ROM containing one for 8 address bits and 4 data bits in Logisim.
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05:36:35 <oklofok> "<Bike> kmc: now stuck thinking of analogies between dynamic systems and iterated functions. V_V" an iterated function system can be thought of as a dynamical system, the functions giving an action of the free monoid
05:36:47 <Bike> your mom's a free monoid
05:36:56 <oklofok> the fixed-point they generate is the limit set of the system
05:37:35 <oklofok> (fixed-points are what you care about for IFS, and limit sets are something you care about for dynamical systems)
05:37:57 <Bike> aren't they the same thing
05:38:02 <Bike> wait you just said that
05:38:59 <Bike> was halite asking how to make a shifter
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05:42:17 <kmc> i thought about linking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_shifter but wasn't sure if it was relevant
05:42:20 <kmc> but that's a thing
05:42:26 <kmc> don't know what it has to do with ROMs though
05:42:47 <kmc> there's always a tradeoff between storing your lookup table in ROM vs. computing it with gates
05:45:29 <shachaf> What's with people magically introducing GADT syntax just to express a type like "data T a = C a => T a"?
05:45:37 <kmc> GADT syntax is the best, is what
05:45:51 <kmc> in my hypothetical Haskell tutorial i will never get around to writing, we will use GADT syntax from the beginning
05:46:06 <shachaf> OK, then use it uniformly.
05:46:06 <kmc> it's less confusing
05:46:10 <kmc> yes, one should
05:46:20 <Bike> "The basic results on this resonance were obtained not by strict mathematical arguments but by a combination of guesses and computer experiments"
05:46:27 <kmc> when you write «data Foo = Bar» it's super confusing that Foo is a type and Bar a value cause there's an equals sign between them!!
05:46:30 <kmc> should be a kind error imo
05:46:36 <shachaf> But writing "don't do data C a => T a = T a, because blah blah, instead you should do data T a where T :: C a => a -> T a"
05:46:49 <shachaf> That's introducing two unrelated things at once
05:46:56 <kmc> sure, but the former is almost never useful
05:47:12 <kmc> you're saying you can write «data T a = C a => T a» in GHC?
05:47:15 <kmc> and get the latter behavior?
05:47:25 <kmc> that's pretty obscure though, isn't it?
05:47:30 <kmc> and again, GADT syntax is clearer
05:47:39 <kmc> Bike: several layers of Halachic uncertainty, randomness, and delays
05:47:44 <shachaf> Is it? It seems pretty obvious to me if that's the behavior you're oging for.
05:47:58 <shachaf> It's as obscure as ExistentialQuantification.
05:48:19 <Bike> i'm already streaming through the weird russian names here, if you told me jews came up with this four thousand years ago i'd belive you (because of knuth THANKS KNUTH)
05:48:38 <shachaf> Anyway, every GADT is represented in GHC using a combination of ExistentialQuantification and various constraints like this (including type equality constraints).
05:49:08 <shachaf> Anyway I don't object to either syntax, just to jumping to GADTs for no good reason.
05:49:13 <Bike> i feel i'm worryingly close to learning what homotopy really is.
05:49:17 <shachaf> I found the syntax very confusing when I first saw it.
05:50:03 <shachaf> The trouble with GADT syntax is that it's verbose.
05:51:30 <Bike> a functor on the category of curves,
05:51:40 <Bike> endofunctor. whtever, fuck other functors.
05:52:02 <kmc> Bike: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Gan11.jpg
05:52:33 <Bike> a strong argument against socialist price regulation
05:53:30 <shachaf> what's a curve and what's a curve homomorphism
05:53:36 <Bike> i think a homotopy is just a continuous function between continuous functions, though.
05:54:01 <Bike> no, wait, no, it's more like parametrized.
05:54:05 <Bike> w/e. i don't know shit.
05:54:38 <Bike> a curve is something with a homotopy with a line segment, hth
05:55:03 <shachaf> am i going to have to ask https:wikipedia
05:55:35 <Bike> wikipedia literally says "a topological space which is locally homeomorphic to a line"
05:56:08 <Bike> holy shit there are some awesome names on wikipedia's "list of curves"
05:56:19 <Bike> "Trisectrix of Maclaurin" "Tschirnhausen cubic" "Witch of Agnesi"
05:56:42 <Bike> i'm pretty sure you can hire trisectrixes at brothels
05:56:58 <shachaf> everyone's heard of the witch of agnesi
05:58:49 <shachaf> Bike: ok let's start with what's a continuous function :'(
05:59:11 <Bike> do you want me to go through epsilon delta also how serious are you being
05:59:35 <shachaf> i mean in general for arbitrary topological spaces
05:59:44 <shachaf> or does some epsilon delta thing work there too
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05:59:58 <Bike> well as long as you have a metric, sure
06:00:50 <Bike> oh, yeah, what am i thinking, you don't need metrics.
06:01:20 <shachaf> how does the epsilon delta thing work in that case
06:01:57 <oklofok> "<Bike> i think a homotopy is just a continuous function between continuous functions, though." a homotopy is a _path_ between two continuous functions (it's a path pointwise, and it's continuous as a whole)
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06:02:18 <Bike> something like, for f : A -> B, if you have x there must be a neighborhood of x and a neighborhood of f(x) such that all points in the first neighborhood are in the second neighborhood under f
06:02:22 <Bike> i think that's wrong
06:02:49 <oklofok> so you move f(x) to g(x) for all x simultaneously (f and g have to have the same domain and codomain for this to make sense)
06:02:54 <Bike> "f is continuous at some point x ∈ X if and only if for any neighborhood V of f(x), there is a neighborhood U of x such that f(U) ⊆ V"
06:03:13 <Bike> oh, right, i just used the wrong quantifiers.
06:03:51 <Bike> i think that's reasonably intuitive though.
06:04:04 <Bike> the thing i quoted is right because i didn't write it. the one i did write is wrong :D
06:04:33 <Bike> this is where the whole "bike actually hasn't taken math past calculus" thing comes into play
06:04:42 <shachaf> btw i don't know any maths at all
06:04:50 <Bike> shachaf: does the definition make sense?
06:05:40 <oklofok> (generally people learn continuity quite a bit before homotopy)
06:06:11 <Bike> this is #esoteric, we don't give a shit about your "coherent pedagogical methods"!!
06:06:27 <oklofok> with your first definition, every function is continuous
06:06:37 <Bike> right, very wrong
06:06:42 <oklofok> so yeah that's probably not right
06:07:42 <Bike> since you could just take the neighborhood that is the entire space on both ends, which i realized while writing it, but i kept going anyway because gosh darn it sounded almost right.
06:08:15 <Bike> but of course if it's that every neighborhood of f has to have an image, you can keep shrinking that shit. which matches the intuition of continuity.
06:08:54 <Bike> There's probably a good definition of homotopy for function spaces instead of sequences or whatever, but I don't know it.
06:09:19 <oklofok> suppose first that f and g are paths
06:09:47 <oklofok> a homotopy is now a "rectangle" between them
06:10:09 <Bike> is this rectangle actually an infinite dimensional hypercube
06:10:16 <shachaf> i think it's just a rectangle
06:10:23 <Bike> wow, that's a relief.
06:10:36 <oklofok> it's h : [0, 1] \times [0, 1] \to X such that h(x, 0) = f(x) and h(x, 0) = g(x) for all x \in X
06:10:45 <oklofok> it's h : [0, 1] \times [0, 1] \to X such that h(x, 0) = f(x) and h(x, 1) = g(x) for all x \in X
06:11:14 <oklofok> it's h : [0, 1] \times [0, 1] \to X such that h(x, 0) = f(x) and h(x, 1) = g(x) for all x \in [0, 1]
06:11:22 <Bike> well i got the point regardless.
06:11:39 <oklofok> i only used the fact that they are paths so that i could call it a rectangle
06:11:43 <oklofok> that's the general definition
06:11:54 <Bike> so one [0,1] is how far you are along the path and the other is how far you are between paths.
06:12:03 <shachaf> is it related to natural transformations somehow
06:12:59 <Bike> maybe there's a whatever between functors and paths.
06:13:09 <oklofok> now as such this is kind of trivial: if the space X is path-connected, any two functions are homotopic
06:14:01 <shachaf> paths defined like this can't actually be composed in an associative way, right
06:14:11 <oklofok> but you can for example choose x \in [0, 1] and y \in X (in the case of paths above) and restrict to functions such that f(x) = y
06:14:25 <Bike> shachaf: well X doesn't have to be the unit interval...
06:14:38 <oklofok> (and the homotopies must also go through only such functions, so that h(x, t) = y for all time parameters t)
06:14:40 <Bike> so that kind of... puts a damper on things
06:14:55 <oklofok> i really shouldn't've called the codomain X
06:15:08 <Bike> oh, you meant that about functors being them. well sucks to be a path
06:15:22 <oklofok> shachaf: they can if you consider them only up to homotopy equivalence
06:15:45 <Bike> clearly one should compose paths by having f(1) = g(0) and just stringing them along
06:16:11 <oklofok> since non-associativity only comes from the fact that (f \circ f') \circ f'' and f \circ (f' \circ f'') are parametrized differently
06:16:31 <oklofok> Bike: you can, but that's only associative up to homoropy equivalence.
06:17:00 <shachaf> i think Bike means that you can end up with a path : [0, 2] -> X or something
06:17:02 <Bike> i really appreciate that you're taking the time to explain this to someone who's only half awake
06:17:13 <Bike> but yes that's what i meant, though shrinking the interval
06:17:32 <Bike> shachaf: just making it [0,1] instead of [0,2].
06:17:39 <shachaf> if you do that then you don't get associativity anymore
06:17:48 <shachaf> without this homotopy equivalence thing oklofok is talking about
06:17:58 <oklofok> so paths f and g compose into h(x) = f(2x) if x < 0.5 and h(x) = g(...) otherwise
06:18:06 <oklofok> where ... is something really complicated
06:19:00 <oklofok> you can also compose homotopies, the exact same way
06:19:11 <Bike> shachaf means if you did that then you'd get different shrinkages for (f.g).h and f.(g.h) though.
06:19:22 <oklofok> yes, and that's what i initially addressed
06:19:24 <Bike> well, probably. if he doesn't then pretend i did.
06:19:27 <shachaf> yes, hence the whole "only up to homotopy equivalence"
06:19:46 <shachaf> but if you did allow arbitrary [0,n] intervals then you'd get associativity
06:20:04 <shachaf> but then you have f : [0,1] -> X and g : [0,2] -> X which ought to be the same but aren't and who wants that
06:20:08 <oklofok> yeah but you wouldn't get for example an identity path
06:20:24 <shachaf> you'd get an identity path for each n
06:21:36 <oklofok> usually you want that the space forms a category with each point an object and each path a morphism, and that they form a category. for this you need shrinkage.
06:21:43 <oklofok> because otherwise you don't have an identity
06:22:12 <shachaf> Bike: so where does this endofunctor business come in
06:22:30 <Bike> why in god's name are you listening to me
06:22:38 <oklofok> you are the resident category theory expert
06:22:59 <shachaf> you're the category person around here
06:23:41 <Bike> never category i didn't liek
06:24:24 <oklofok> i'm going to chile in a few weeks to talk to people about category theory
06:24:52 <shachaf> are you visiting california while you're at it
06:25:13 <Bike> this article is available in the (closed) library but not online. do i live in a fucking cave
06:25:42 <shachaf> Bike: at least you have a library :'(
06:25:45 <Bike> good ten hours
06:25:52 <Bike> shachaf: pretty much the best thing about school
06:25:54 <kmc> cool, gcmap will tell you the farthest airport from any airport
06:26:12 <shachaf> the whole "10 hours at jfk" thing
06:26:28 <oklofok> it'll be my first visit to us
06:26:30 <shachaf> it's an "ok airport to wait in i guess"
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06:26:40 <shachaf> are you just flying through or actually visiting
06:26:54 <oklofok> after i stopped smoking, airports are pretty boring
06:27:20 <shachaf> kmc: SLC had indoor smoking rooms "how weird is that"
06:27:47 <shachaf> Salt Lake City International Airport
06:27:53 <oklofok> don't all airports have those
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06:28:40 <oklofok> unless it's so small you can just go outside
06:29:00 <shachaf> so what's the usual topology on R anyway
06:29:17 <oklofok> the order topology which is also the topology given by the obvious metric
06:29:25 <shachaf> i don't know anything about metrics
06:29:38 <oklofok> absolute value of difference
06:30:01 <oklofok> if you have a metric, then you get a topology by taking the radius r balls around each point as a basis
06:30:28 <shachaf> where balls just means open intervals i suppose
06:30:32 <Bike> the "first day in real analysis" topology
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06:30:57 <oklofok> by a ball of radius r around x i mean the set of points at distance r or less from x
06:31:14 <oklofok> and distance is absolute value of difference, if you want to get the normal topology of R
06:31:43 <shachaf> "basis" means those sets and anything you generate from them?
06:31:56 <shachaf> er, "taking ... as a basis"
06:32:15 <Bike> taking those to be neighborhoods i.e. open sets, i think
06:32:43 <shachaf> neighborhoods aren't the same as open sets
06:32:56 <Bike> oh, right, yes, and then you have the entire set of open sets by taking unions over the basis.
06:33:19 <oklofok> shachaf: yeah the actual open sets will be the arbitrary unions of those balls
06:33:39 <shachaf> do you need intersections too
06:33:45 <oklofok> neighborhoods are or are not the same as open sets depending on your definition, but i guess it's more common to define them so that they just need to contain an open set
06:33:55 <Bike> i was about to ask what a neighborhood would be if not an open set.
06:33:59 <oklofok> well you do, but you get them automatically here
06:34:13 <shachaf> wait, does Bike's definition of continuity work if you just say "open set" instead of "neighborhood"
06:34:38 <Bike> here's hoping i do enough math to get "Bike's foo" into a dictionary
06:34:39 <oklofok> because a neighborhood of x contains an open set around x
06:35:16 <oklofok> (if the open set doesn't touch x, then of course a "neighborhood of x" is a pretty useless term)
06:35:42 <shachaf> by Bike's definition i mean the one he quoted from wikipedia
06:36:37 <oklofok> you can say open set or neighborhood in most cases, and get the same thing; the difference is things like "compact neighborhood of x" are nicer if this just means a compact set that contains an open set that contains x, otherwise you have to make things simultaneously compact and open, which is hard.
06:40:00 <shachaf> so do you not need intersections of balls
06:41:46 <oklofok> well no: for any point x in the intersection of two balls, there is a ball that contains x and is contained in the intersection
06:41:54 <oklofok> (use the triangle inequality)
06:42:15 <oklofok> so in fact you get intersections by just taking the union of all such balls, for all points in the intersection
06:42:26 <oklofok> (unions are really arbitrary in topology, not just countable)
06:43:16 <Bike> triangle inequality with no metric?
06:43:45 <Bike> i think i need to pick a topological space with no good metric to think about this shit
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06:49:32 <oklofok> Bike: this was about going from having a metric to having a topology
06:49:53 <oklofok> sorry if that wasn't clear
06:50:07 <Bike> oh, no, i see. again i'm half asleep and not a math person
06:50:28 <oklofok> while there surely are topological spaces "without a good metric", note that there are even topologies _without a metric_
06:51:12 <oklofok> that for no metric, the topology comes from that metric
06:51:39 <oklofok> (there's probably a cardinality argument that shows this, but there are relatively natural examples as well)
06:51:54 <Bike> can you still give a metric to the topology, and what's an example?
06:52:31 <oklofok> shachaf: going from an order to a topology is slightly easier, you just take intervals (a, b) as the open basis (where (a, b) is the set of c such that a < c < b)
06:52:53 <oklofok> Bike: you can give a metric to the space, but it will not have much to do with the topology
06:53:09 <oklofok> well i have a paper with a few such spaces :P
06:53:16 <oklofok> but in all seriousness, let's look at wp
06:53:43 <Bike> yeah that's what i was trying to get at with "good metric"
06:54:44 <oklofok> i thought you meant like natural metric
06:54:55 <Bike> welcome to me not knowing what i'm saying
06:54:59 <oklofok> so you want a space that is not metrizable
06:55:27 <oklofok> well a trivial example is one where for some pair x, y, each open set contains either neither or both
06:55:57 <oklofok> if there was a metric giving the topology, then d(x, y) = r > 0, so that the radius r ball around x contains just one.
06:56:15 <oklofok> http://mathoverflow.net/questions/52032/examples-of-non-metrizable-spaces <<< that was 1.
06:57:15 <Bike> maye i should just get counterexamples in topology
06:57:25 <oklofok> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_line_(topology) then there's this guy for 2.
06:57:36 <shachaf> wasn't someone just talking about that book
06:57:47 <Bike> well i've heard of it so probably. was it you
06:57:51 <kmc> i love the long line
06:57:55 <kmc> it's so long
06:58:00 <olsner> it's on the ZOMGMODULES reading list, I think
06:58:04 <kmc> sizeof(long) > sizeof(real)
06:58:09 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Chris%20Pressey#Esoteric_Reading_List.21
06:58:46 <Bike> i'm going to go to sleep now so you can stop humoring me for a moment
06:58:58 <oklofok> i should probably go to work anyway
06:59:14 <Bike> hm i'm sensing some sarcasm in this link
06:59:48 <oklofok> although i guess teaching the world mathematics is my job
07:00:07 <Bike> i can't believe i'm elitist enough to think that borges would be a better choice to learn about llull
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07:14:08 <shachaf> oklofok: are homotopies where X is R^n interesting
07:14:42 <shachaf> copumpkin: What was wrong with the pro? :-(
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07:40:46 <shachaf> OK, so now the thing about cofree and free topologies makes sense.
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07:49:34 <kmc> No match for "METHOVERFLOW.NET". ?????
07:55:53 <kmc> this is like finding a $20 bill on the ground
07:56:14 <kmc> also is the plumbing site called ToiletOverflow
07:56:24 <kmc> `quote #toilet
07:56:29 <HackEgo> 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
08:05:15 -!- carado has joined.
08:07:43 <kmc> `run quote Sgeo | shuf
08:07:46 <HackEgo> 158) <Sgeo> HOT SEXY SEX BITS \ 914) <Sgeo> Actually, just as a guess, J might be worse than APL because it's restricted to normal (ascii?) characters, I guess \ 947) <Sgeo> I was practically raised by Dilbert. \ 303) [on Sgeo's karaoke] <not_nddrylliog> Sgeo: awesome <not_nddrylliog> sounds like a japan anime sound track \ 359) <Sgeo_> Something
08:08:03 <kmc> last one is the best imo
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10:26:25 <fizzie> Baaah. Apparently this work-Ubuntu's lightdm has no "use standard Xsession | ~/.xsession" entry, and no package adds it either. (We've got a silly "no administrative access, but can run 'sudo apt-get X'" kind of thing going on.)
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12:08:21 <metasepia> CYUL 291200Z 31005KT 30SM BKN030 M03/M05 A3048 RMK SC7 FROIN SLP322
12:08:36 <boily> yaaaaay... -3 °C this morning...
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12:13:34 <fizzie> http://outside.aalto.fi/img/temp.month.png <- Winter came and went, there.
12:18:05 <metasepia> ESSA 291150Z 22017G29KT 9999 VCSH FEW012 SCT022 BKN035CB 11/08 Q0990 REDZ NOSIG
12:18:53 <FireFly> Oh, I guess it might be 11°C
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12:19:55 <boily> today's the 29th, report taken at 11:50am UTC, winds from 220° at 17 knots (gusts at 29 knots), nothing to say about ground visibility, rain showers in the vicinity, a few clouds at 1200', scattered clouds at 2200', broken clouds at 3500' (oh, and cumulonimbi too).
12:20:25 <boily> it's 11 °C outside, dew point at 8 °C, sea level pressure at 990 hPa.
12:20:40 <boily> fungot: what is a REDZ?
12:20:41 <fungot> boily: msvcrt.dll? i don't have stdcons.bfm written at all. i might see a few hundred individuals through a few thousand roms usually takes care of grabbing the opcode from fnord!
12:20:49 <boily> oh yuck. atmospheric DLLs.
12:21:47 <boily> REDZ: recent drizzle.
12:24:46 <boily> NO SIGnificative observations.
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14:20:38 <fizzie> "Out of memory on device. To view more detail about available memory on the GPU, use 'gpuDevice()'." Aw. :(
14:21:17 <fizzie> Thought I'd run a small thing in parallel on this local workstation.
14:21:40 <fizzie> (It's got a standard Quadro 2000 and not any sort of computation card, though.)
14:21:48 <oklofok> "<shachaf> oklofok: are homotopies where X is R^n interesting" sorry what's X, codomain or domain or what, i stupidly used it as the codomain and now i'm confused
14:23:46 <oklofok> but supposing it's the domain, you might wanna use S^n (the boundary of the n+1 dimensional ball) instead
14:24:41 <oklofok> then just like the usual homotopy group is given by loops and their composition, you get higher homotopy groups where you have balls which are composed by an operation that i find sort of hard to visualize.
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14:26:54 <oklofok> so you have a space Y with a basepoint y \in Y, which is the space whose structure we're trying to understand by computing its homotopy group; now we consider the maps from S^n to Y which map x \in S^n to y (where x is some nice basepoint of S^n, say (1,0,...,0)).
14:28:37 <oklofok> and you consider them up to homotopy equivalence, so that two maps f, g : S^n \to Y that respect basepoints are considered the same if there's a homotopy h : S^n \times [0, 1] \to Y between them which respects the basepoints too
14:28:55 <oklofok> (time is always [0, 1] in homotopy)
14:29:55 <oklofok> the group gives information about the holes of the space since if a ball contains a hole, it will stay there no matter how much you homotop..ize the ball.
14:30:42 <oklofok> so a space will have a trivial nth homotopy group iff it has "no n-dimensional holes"
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14:32:25 <oklofok> the group operation is the obvious one, but it's a bit complicated.
14:33:32 <boily> is it obvious, or complicated?
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14:35:04 <oklofok> it's the obvious one in the sense that if you think about it long enough to come up with a formula, it'll be that one
14:35:50 <oklofok> it's a bit complicated in the sense that you probably get bored before coming up with the formula
14:36:10 <oklofok> actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homotopy_group has something that might be understandable
14:38:30 <oklofok> k it's not that complicated i guess
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14:39:19 <boily> it's not complicated. otoh, IANAM, therefore I can't really apply what's written there to the real world.
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14:47:26 <oklofok> well the homotopy group is pretty hard to compute usually (i hear), so it's of limited use even if you are a mathematician. but the first homotopy group is needed to prove things like brouwer's fixed point theorem (at least i don't know another way that's not a huge hassle).
14:47:46 <oklofok> in case the m was for mathematician
14:49:10 <oklofok> i use the concept of homotopy groups mainly as something to bask in the beauty of.
14:50:57 <boily> like relaxing in the category of bubble baths.
14:55:42 <oklofok> by the results of http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01691062, if the world is a cellular automaton, then bubbles exist if and only if there was no garden of eden.
14:55:56 <oklofok> so stephen wolfram is probaably an atheist
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14:57:28 <oklofok> i should prolly start doing stand up
14:58:17 * boily finds that mathematicians are a weird bunch...
15:02:23 <Halite[tired]> I'm making an OS in what I think is a bit too high-level of a language, and I wonder if someone can make a smal programming language FOR my OS?
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15:15:48 <boily> `relcome DARKDRAGON7777
15:15:51 <HackEgo> DARKDRAGON7777: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:39:03 <shachaf> oklofok: I meant codomain.
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15:53:20 <Bike> kmc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsEb_hdXEHo #drugz level high (guy smoking some lint he found on his car)
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17:33:17 <Halite[tired]> kmc: Do assembly languages have mathematics built in like ADD 0x3 0x4?
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17:34:38 <Halite[tired]> Err... Do assembly languages have mathematics built in like ADD 0x3 0x4?
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17:36:25 <Slereah> I think the "recent" ones do?
17:36:48 <Slereah> I don't know about 60's assembly or whatever though
17:37:00 <Slereah> I think they might only have operations on bits
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17:39:55 <boily> Halite[tired]: something like: MOV EAX, 0x03 \ ADD EAX, 0x04?
17:41:17 <Halite[tired]> does MOV act like a shifter to shift the addresses?
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17:45:40 <Slereah> http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/650.html
17:45:46 <Slereah> I guess they had addition pretty early
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18:08:58 <Slereah> Do people still make hard-wired codes for big things nowadays?
18:09:09 <Slereah> Like a processor specifically for an application
18:09:25 <Slereah> Or is it cheaper to just use any old processor
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18:11:41 <boily> Slereah: ASICs for mining bitcoins?
18:12:35 <boily> mroman: I like mercury delay lines :D
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18:22:08 <kmc> alan turing once suggested gin as the ideal medium for delay lines
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18:27:18 <kmc> I think computers had addition basically from the beginning
18:28:00 <Slereah> It is a pretty good thing to have
18:28:22 <kmc> because they evolved out of machines for doing arithmetic which didn't necessarily have stored programs or use bit-based representations
18:28:55 <kmc> Halite[tired]: a lot of old machines had decimal storage
18:29:09 <kmc> (might be BCD bits internally, but you manipulate numbers in decimal)
18:29:43 <kmc> the machine language in TAoCP is for a machine where a byte is either 8 bits or 2 decimal digits and your programs are supposed to work in either case
18:30:18 <kmc> <Halite[tired]> does MOV act like a shifter to shift the addresses? <--- I don't understand this question, can you clarify?
18:32:57 <Slereah> Do LISP machines have addition?
18:33:12 <Slereah> I guess they're not minimal lisp though
18:33:35 <Slereah> Also, did anyone ever actually make that Brainfuck processor?
18:44:23 <Halite[tired]> I mean - I have a C# interactive interpreter for a simple idea (not the one with that bloated boolean algebra) but it might be cheating because C# is high-level
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18:47:20 <Slereah> Assembly is just machine code with fancy letters on it
18:47:37 <Slereah> Instead of writing bits, you write the equivalent instruction
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18:48:25 <myname> J is just APL with fancy chars on it
18:48:26 <Slereah> I wonder if anyone ever tried to make a processor for a higher level language
18:48:36 <Slereah> Like a processor for C or something
18:49:25 <myname> i thought of designinf a processor for subleq
18:49:34 <myname> caching would be horrible, though
18:49:49 <Slereah> Someone did a BF one, but they only designed it
18:51:18 <Slereah> They're made using transistors nowadays
18:51:30 <Slereah> Get two signals on one end, another signal out
18:51:37 <Halite[tired]> uhh sorry to be dumb but what is a transistor again?
18:51:41 <Slereah> Well nowadays since the 60's.
18:51:49 <Slereah> Before that it was vacuum tubes
18:51:51 <kmc> there are different techniques for making logic gates from transistors
18:51:58 <kmc> CMOS is the most popular these days: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS
18:52:08 <kmc> that article starts with a diagram of an inverter gate made from two transistors
18:52:30 <Halite[tired]> I wonder if there are primitive DNF-like forms to make logic gates?
18:52:31 <kmc> it also shows a schematic for a NAND gate made of four transistors, and a diagram of the physical layout of same on silicon
18:53:27 <Slereah> I used to be a physics major, so I had to do a lot of transistor physics
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18:54:05 <kmc> regarding chips with "high level" machine language, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages#AS.2F400
18:54:43 <kmc> Halite[tired]: a transistor is basically an electrical switch that is controlled by another electrical input
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18:55:25 <kmc> it has three connections; it allows electricity to flow between the first two if and only if the voltage at the third one is high
18:55:34 <kmc> but that's a simplification and you should read wikipedia or something
18:55:58 <Slereah> Yeah, it's also possible to get a current in and getting a higher current out
18:55:58 <kmc> there are two main types of transistors (bipolar junction and field effect); they work on very different physical principles but do roughly the same thng
18:56:08 <Slereah> Which was also a huge innovation
18:56:10 <kmc> right, in analog applications they are amplifiers
18:56:18 <Slereah> Amplification of current is very important for some things
18:56:27 <Bike> like rockn out
18:57:05 <Slereah> Hell, early movies could have sound, I mean, they had records back then
18:57:13 <Slereah> Synchronizing was hard, but still
18:57:25 <Slereah> The big problem was that without amplification, it was hard to play in a theater
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18:59:27 <Slereah> Is Panini the first esolanger
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19:01:40 <Bike> sanskrit isn't very esoteric.
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19:03:09 <Slereah> He invented the Backus-Naur form, though
19:04:07 <Slereah> You can use it to generate strings in a TC fashion
19:04:16 <Slereah> I think Thue is based on it?
19:04:22 <Taneb> I fell asleep and dreamt I was a Narwhak
19:05:03 <Taneb> Which raises the question
19:05:07 <Bike> i thought BNF only did CFGs.
19:05:21 <Taneb> Am I a human dreaming to be a narwhal, or a narwhal dreaming to be a human?
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19:05:43 <Bike> i had a dream about a rugrats movie where tommy's dad was hired by people in the UAE to make a gigantic, halal-compliant robotic brewery.
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19:08:30 <Slereah> What is the notation for unrestricted grammars called?
19:08:37 <Taneb> Bike, isn't... alcohol sort of banned?
19:11:38 <Bike> Taneb: Yes, he tried to demonstrate it by making some beer (which involved extracting some of his happiest memories fro the flavor - this was the gimmick) but when he did it gave an error message about being used for haraam purposes and that part exploded.
19:13:27 <Bike> the logical conclusion, see.
19:13:54 <olsner> Bike: sounds like a pretty great dream
19:15:46 <Bike> most of the actual content was about an adventure through the Empty Quarter.
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19:17:37 <Bike> you can make gates with complementarily arranged transistors.
19:18:04 <Bike> well there are protbably other ways, that's just the one i know...
19:18:06 <Taneb> Aren't they linear bounded?
19:19:11 <Halite[tired]> a single transistor codes one true state, two floating states
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19:21:08 <Slereah> Nothing physical is TC anyway
19:21:23 <Slereah> But sprinkle some infinity on it and things tend to be TCer
19:21:48 <Slereah> Because you can make logic gates out of them
19:21:56 <Slereah> And logic gates were proved to be TC quite a while ago
19:22:05 <Halite[tired]> and why aren't the building blocks and, or and not?
19:22:27 <Slereah> But you can do everything with NAND, so people tend to use it
19:22:47 <Slereah> Because vacuum tubes are huge things
19:23:49 <Halite[tired]> whats special about buffering (or float if not buffering affected)
19:24:01 <Bike> "why aren't the building blocks and, or, and not" well how do you build a physical and gate.
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19:27:52 <Bike> So wouldn't those be "the basis", and not the gates?
19:28:46 <Bike> how do you make an and out of a pullup anyway
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19:35:33 <Halite[tired]> -made AND logic gate with transistor and pull resistor in Logisim-
19:36:34 <Bike> anyway half the point of computability is that any "basis" is generally equivalent to another "basis".
19:36:51 <Halite[tired]> ah, we can replace transistors with controlled buffers
19:37:52 <Bike> the buffers i know how to make are made of transistors.
19:38:52 <Bike> Photolithography.
19:38:53 <boily> you could splice diodes together?
19:38:57 <Bike> Pretty interesting stuff, really.
19:39:16 <Bike> That's the nice thing about transistors. You can, y'know, build them.
19:39:22 <Bike> They can be really fucking tiny too.
19:39:34 <Slereah> Well the object called "transistor" is always semiconductors, I think
19:39:40 <Slereah> But you can make equivalent devices
19:40:03 <Slereah> I assume you could even make a mechanical version
19:40:45 <Bike> yeah, a mechanical transistor is sort of like a transmission.
19:41:18 <Slereah> There used to be hydraulic computers, but I think they just did analogic computations
19:42:37 <Bike> it's kinda hard to reduce the error enough to do digital computation with an analog computer, yeah.
19:42:55 <Bike> it's possible, but i don't know if it's physically feasible, or inexpensive enough to bother with
19:42:55 <Slereah> I got a friend with a CURTA calculator
19:43:11 <Slereah> It's like a pepper mill to garnish your meals with numbers
19:43:46 <Bike> "It can be used to perform addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, and (with more difficulty) square roots and other operations." why, imagine that.
19:43:55 <Bike> wow, it does look like a pepper mill.
19:44:08 <Halite[tired]> Although if there was a device which would return true if x=y=true, false if x=y=false, or float if x=/=y, that would be in a tc set with a NOT gate
19:45:13 <Bike> how would you even make or out of that.
19:46:07 <Halite[tired]> maybe just connect two inputs together? although in Logisim simulation that'd result in E if x!=y
19:47:03 <Bike> you should learn some actual circuitry.
19:47:23 <Halite[tired]> but all I get at school is 'battery and light bulb'.
19:47:29 <Slereah> You could make an ant computer!
19:48:03 <Bike> See: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.1749
19:48:04 <Slereah> Just trace their path with honey
19:48:12 <Slereah> I'm not sure how to do a logic gate with ants though
19:48:13 <Halite[tired]> and then show them user input through some LED, no transistors involved
19:48:15 <Bike> A superior basis to computation over electronic transistors.
19:48:25 <Bike> Slereah: why that's what the paper's for
19:48:27 <FireFly> Bike: I don't know what to say
19:48:38 <Bike> FireFly: "cool!"
19:48:49 <Halite[tired]> Slereah: let ants travel through wires and force them to do stuff with a magic hypnosis thing for the gate
19:48:52 <FireFly> Bike: I mean, I've seen the paper before, but I never thought I'd see it actually being relevant
19:49:02 <Bike> that's what i'm here for.
19:49:15 <Bike> watching, waiting for an in. an opportunity to link. it's my sole purpose.
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19:50:04 <Bike> can you stop using weird terminology
19:50:31 <Bike> looks like it's just a couple multiplexers.
19:51:51 <Bike> http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,729,746&Prod=LBE-DD Just read this or something.
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20:26:27 <Taneb> One of my friends is in a play and I can't go and see it and it sounds awesome
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20:30:38 <Halite[tired]> mr. catch caught a catch which caught a catch which caught a catch which caught a catch
20:32:23 <Halite[tired]> superCALIF[lower]ragiLISTicEXP[onent][d]IALiDOC[tor]ious
20:33:02 <shachaf> Are you quite sure you weren't banned in here?
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21:27:26 <kmc> GitHub is down
21:27:39 <kmc> and they don't even have a cutesy error page up
21:28:41 <Bike> me too. what a rip.
21:29:47 <kmc> weird. i am definitely getting a 503
21:30:16 <kmc> oh I only get it when I'm logged in
21:31:24 <olsner> I'm also logged in and it works, so I guess it's something personal?
21:35:12 <boily> kmc: have you done unspeakable horrors onto innocent octopussies recently?
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21:38:19 <kmc> welp it's back
21:38:40 <kmc> those were a terrifying 10 minutes of slacking off at work
21:38:43 <boily> olsner: octopoddies?
21:39:17 <olsner> the plural of octopi is octopodes or something
21:45:45 * boily hands ion the Diæ̈resis of the Day Award
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22:27:07 <oerjan> <shachaf> What's with people magically introducing GADT syntax just to express a type like "data T a = C a => T a"? <-- a believe they have different semantics - when using the non-GADT version, you need to include C a => in the type of the functions that use it. it's even deprecated for that reason. hm possibly even removed in a recent haskell version.
22:27:54 <shachaf> oerjan: You're thinking of "data C a => T a = T a"
22:28:15 <shachaf> Which is deprecated and removed for that reason.
22:28:25 <oerjan> in that case, is your version even correct syntax.
22:29:02 <shachaf> data Box = forall a. Show a => MkBox a -- people don't mind this syntax when it comes with a forall...
22:30:03 <oerjan> well without forall i think it's confusing what it means.
22:30:13 <shachaf> It means the same as the GADT.
22:30:40 <oerjan> ...having a meaning is not the same as the syntax not being confusing, shachaf
22:31:02 <shachaf> I thought you meant the meaning was confusing. You meant the syntax was confusing?
22:31:09 <shachaf> It seems pretty consistent to me.
22:31:20 <shachaf> If you believe in *> syntax, it means roughly the same as data T a = T (C a *> a)
22:31:26 <oerjan> well the thing is the second T a in there is a data constructor.
22:31:40 <shachaf> Yes, that's an old Haskell sin.
22:32:02 <oerjan> um that's how data definitions work.
22:32:25 <shachaf> I mean, using the same name for the data constructor and the type.
22:32:47 <oerjan> you don't have to pun it, but it's still confusing that it's mixing class contexts and data constructors.
22:33:05 <shachaf> And adding the forall makes it not confusing?
22:33:48 <oerjan> i mean, the meaning of data T a = C a => U a is completely different from type T a = C a => U a
22:34:16 <shachaf> Sure. "data" syntax in general is confusing.
22:34:32 <shachaf> "data T a = U a" /= "type T a = U a"
22:34:58 <shachaf> Anyway, how about this, to clear up confusion: "data T a = forall. C a => T a"
22:35:15 <oerjan> i'm actually talking about the fact that C a is treated completely differently in the two.
22:35:41 <oerjan> it is _not_ quantified in the type version.
22:36:22 <oerjan> wait i'm speaking nonsense.
22:37:28 <oerjan> also argh my eyes, damn i'm going to need to buy glasses/lenses.
22:37:48 <FireFly> I hear this Edward guy is in the lens business
22:38:59 <oerjan> and i just know i'm going to lose them everywhere, once i start carrying them around.
22:39:39 <oerjan> well or have them fall out of my jacket and break. how solid are glasses, anyway.
22:40:15 <FireFly> My solution to that problem is to always have them on my nose
22:40:30 <oerjan> but i don't need them when not reading.
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22:47:01 <JWinslow23> How about I develop a language with lights and mirrors?
22:47:19 <oerjan> JWinslow23: have you looked at BackFlip?
22:47:34 <oerjan> it's got mirrors, although not really lights
22:48:19 <JWinslow23> The lights basically turn on pixels for every space they occupy.
22:48:24 * oerjan is slightly sad no one really found out how to program in BackFlip.
22:48:44 <oerjan> the devices invented seem to lack the necessary modularity to be useful.
22:49:28 <oerjan> heh same syntax as backflip but different meaning.
22:50:10 <Bike> imo, use autonomous phototrophic actors.
22:50:10 <oerjan> well except i'm not sure the V is uppercase in backflip.
22:50:34 <JWinslow23> Pixels are turned on when the lights shine.
22:50:57 <oerjan> also, check out the "Undead" puzzle from simon tatham's collection :)
22:51:13 <JWinslow23> So a line pointing up, then right would be:
22:51:30 <oerjan> Bike: do vampires, ghosts and zombies count as such?
22:51:50 <Bike> oerjan: wow very topical, i like it
22:52:18 <oerjan> hm i guess it's also about in season
22:52:23 <JWinslow23> Well, Line 1 would be "/ #", Line (maybe 4?) would be "^".
22:52:51 <Bike> problem is i don't know how to make a "programming language" out of a bunch of pooks crepping around
22:53:12 <oerjan> JWinslow23: in some clients, the way to get a / at start of line is to write / /
22:53:29 <JesseH> Who wants to work on a language with meh
22:54:16 <JesseH> JWinslow23, You made a language before? :P
22:54:45 <JWinslow23> Yes. Pancake Stack, Drive-In Window, Ecstatic, and Tic Tac Toe.
22:55:20 <JWinslow23> Still looking for Hello World in Esctatic.
22:55:51 <JesseH> So what are your ideas
22:56:22 <JWinslow23> My first idea, I already said. Later, I'll make a wiki page for it.
22:56:55 <JesseH> Ill just assume its not good enough
22:57:15 <JWinslow23> Cars racing do things, items on the track do things, etc.
22:59:03 <oerjan> JesseH: i think the Ecstatic Hello World is more tl;dw
22:59:49 <oerjan> and then i'm joking about the w fitting better
22:59:57 <JesseH> I don't want a langauge that takes a long time to do things
23:00:08 <JesseH> Just, does them in a confusing way
23:00:19 <JesseH> OR it doesnt have to be confusing at all
23:00:23 <oerjan> JWinslow23: i'll leave that as an exercise for the reader.
23:00:32 <JesseH> but if it isnt esoteric then it doesnt belong here ;_;
23:00:46 <JWinslow23> Cars race on a racetrack, items there do stuff.
23:00:50 <Bike> 'esoteric' doesn't mean 'confusing'.
23:01:06 <JesseH> I'm trying to save a few sentenecs :P
23:01:23 <Bike> If it did we'd just have stopped after http://esolangs.org/wiki/Most_ever_Brainfuckiest_Fuck_you_Brain_fucker_Fuck
23:03:24 <oerjan> krash is a programming language for krazy kats
23:03:36 <JWinslow23> I said it above Bike's 'esoteric' comment.
23:04:29 <JesseH> Doing something graphical would be neat.
23:04:53 <JWinslow23> I'll post documentation on the wiki later.
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23:06:29 <oerjan> we also have some car-related languages, see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Maze and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Half-Broken_Car_in_Heavy_Traffic
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23:06:53 <FireFly> Half-Broken Car in Heavy Traffic seems like a good name for a programming language to me
23:07:08 <FireFly> wasn't there also a Taxi language?
23:07:43 <shachaf> "C a is treated completely differently in the two."
23:07:58 <shachaf> oh, was that bit the nonsense
23:08:11 <oerjan> shachaf: type T a = C a => ... doesn't have a quantified.
23:08:12 <Taneb> FireFly, compare Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:08:16 <kmc> imo fuck cars
23:08:23 <kmc> any train languages?
23:08:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
23:09:13 <FireFly> I'm sad RFNHS3:SDD doesn't redirect to its wiki article
23:09:28 <kmc> i want a language where http://www.bronx-terminal.com/wp-content/uploads/1-CNJp1907_1.jpg is a prime number sieve
23:09:32 <shachaf> kmc: well it's parameterized on a
23:09:48 <oerjan> kmc: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rail and http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subway
23:09:50 <kmc> wait that diagram doesn't even have the best part
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23:10:19 <Taneb> FireFly, that's because you should never ever shorten the name of Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:10:20 <shachaf> imo the two of you have to merge now
23:10:36 <kmc> i will not go to second level meditation with you
23:10:55 <JWinslow23> BTW, do you think that Krash should include multiple cars?
23:12:18 <shachaf> kmc: did you get an uber kitten delivered today
23:12:40 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
23:12:40 <JWinslow23> So, should Krash have a track that turns?
23:12:41 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
23:12:41 <myndzi> /| c.c /| |\| | /`\ c.c >\ | /< |/| c.c |\
23:14:02 <JWinslow23> Should Krash (my new language) have a track with turns?
23:14:03 <oerjan> darn suddenly putty doesn't show look-of-disapproval correctly.
23:14:58 <FireFly> look of disapproval hasn't always been in ^celebrate, has it?
23:15:03 -!- Faris has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
23:15:41 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:16:01 <fungot> (\o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/)S
23:16:02 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
23:16:02 <myndzi> /´\ c.c /| /| | | /| c.c |\ | >\|/`\ c.c /<
23:16:34 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
23:17:12 <oerjan> JWinslow23: there is no ^code command.
23:17:23 <oerjan> you are misreading the ^help
23:17:31 <JWinslow23> How do we define stuff like ^celebrate?
23:18:34 <oerjan> you need to write a program in either brainfuck or underload.
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23:20:21 <oerjan> it does show chinese, at least
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23:23:07 <Taneb> Dear god C is a messed up language
23:23:28 <Taneb> Apparently index[array] is valid
23:26:25 -!- Faris has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
23:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> array[index] is semantically equivalent to *(array+index)
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23:29:15 <oerjan> `interp c printf("%c",5["Hello, world!\n"]);
23:29:35 <HackEgo> Does not compile. \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: fork: retry: Resource temporarily unavailable \ ./interps/gcccomp/gcccomp: for
23:30:01 <oerjan> i didn't _really_ expect that to work, mind you.
23:30:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i choose to read that smiley as "man with yorkshire pudding in mouth"
23:30:33 <oerjan> Gregor: i am wondering if HackEgo might be a smidgen out of processes?
23:30:37 <Taneb> !c printf("%c",5["Hello, world!\n"]);
23:30:53 <oerjan> also that you're despicably idle.
23:30:54 <Phantom_Hoover> (i doubt it's a particularly good idea to do index[array] because compiler optimisations but it's formally valid)
23:31:09 <oerjan> Taneb: EgoBot's interpreters haven't worked for a long time.
23:31:52 <oerjan> !bf_joust except this one i think <
23:32:10 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:32:14 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
23:32:20 <oerjan> !bfjoust except this one i think <
23:32:30 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_except: 0.0
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23:33:01 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for language_lazyk!
23:33:05 <oerjan> Slereah: i think something is wrong in general which affects most of the languages.
23:33:14 <oerjan> also it has never had per-language help.
23:33:26 <Slereah> Why is there a list of them then
23:34:01 <FireFly> Probably because those are the supported (interpreter) commands
23:35:27 <oerjan> Gregor ported all the languages over to HackEgo but not with any serious control of things not breaking.
23:35:45 <oerjan> just copying the relevant directories, i think.
23:36:04 <oerjan> the `interp command sometimes works.
23:38:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp: No such file or directory
23:38:58 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist \ bi \ bin \ bin` \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ dog \ etc \ factor \ file \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ mind \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
23:39:11 <HackEgo> bin`: POSIX shell script text executable
23:39:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bin`: not found
23:40:52 <HackEgo> dog: UTF-8 Unicode text \ dog
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