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00:14:08 <Bike> http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.7007v1 wheeeeee
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00:38:17 <oerjan> oh good look-of-disapproval came back
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00:39:12 <oerjan> Bike: i had a temporary font issue in putty
00:39:23 <oerjan> probably because of windows upgrading.
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01:15:26 <HackEgo> 380) * Sgeo mutters about broken toilets <Sgeo> #toilet is useless <monqy> is #toilet even a thing <Sgeo> I'm looking for help with toilets
01:15:46 <oerjan> hm the formatted logs merge consecutive spaces
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01:29:45 <oerjan> <oklofok> well the homotopy group is pretty hard to compute usually (i hear), so it's of limited use even if you are a mathematician. but the first homotopy group is needed to prove things like brouwer's fixed point theorem (at least i don't know another way that's not a huge hassle). <-- you just need homology groups, which are easier.
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01:32:14 <oerjan> @tell oklofok <oklofok> well the homotopy group is pretty hard to compute usually (i hear), so it's of limited use even if you are a mathematician. but the first homotopy group is needed to prove things like brouwer's fixed point theorem (at least i don't know another way that's not a huge hassle). <-- you just need homology groups, which are easier.
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04:17:27 <oklofok> oerjan: i know, but those are not as nice
04:18:02 <oerjan> well, they're supposedly easier to calculate than homotopy groups.
04:18:26 <oklofok> can brouwer's be proved with those?
04:18:27 <oerjan> admittedly it still takes a while to get to that point.
04:18:48 <oklofok> my favorite algebraic topology book starts with it, and uses homotopy
04:19:13 <oerjan> oklofok: only for the disk, no? the homology proof applies to arbitrary dimension.
04:19:48 <oerjan> assuming by first homotopy group you mean the fundamental group.
04:20:51 <oerjan> the first proof of brouwer's fixpoint theorem listed on wikipedia is essentially the same as what i remember, and the step where you prove that you cannot have a retract from ball to sphere can then be done with homology.
04:21:10 <oklofok> brouwer and the fact S^1 is not a retract of D^2 are on page 6
04:21:23 <oklofok> can homology be done in 6 pages
04:21:48 <oerjan> but in 2d the fundamental group also works. which is not so strange since the fundamental groups and first homology groups are the same for the relevant spaces.
04:22:07 <oerjan> (in general, the first homology group is the abelianization of the fundamental group)
04:22:54 <oerjan> oklofok: no. the fundamental group version _is_ simpler for 2d. it's just not simpler any more when you increase the dimension.
04:23:56 <oklofok> have you studied this stuff much?
04:24:38 <oerjan> i read a book on algebraic topology because one of my old personal mathematical goals was to understand a proof of the jordan-brouwer theorem.
04:25:23 <oerjan> yes. also that level allows you to do the fixpoint theorem and invariance of domain approximately as easy.
04:25:40 <oerjan> in fact the fixpoint theorem is easier, iirc.
04:26:27 <oklofok> i don't have any goals i guess :(
04:27:44 <oerjan> also we managed to get some homology into one of our published articles on topological measures.
04:27:47 <Bike> i for one intend to give a positive answer to the entscheidungsproblem
04:28:01 <oerjan> Bike: a lofty goal, for sure
04:28:19 <oerjan> might require finding a way to redesign reality first.
04:28:27 <oklofok> was that why you had the five lemma
04:28:41 <oerjan> oklofok: no that was a different article.
04:28:55 <oerjan> that one was about dynamical systems
04:29:04 <oklofok> we put a pretty silly homotopy result in an article
04:29:08 <oerjan> it just calculated some K-theoretic invariants.
04:29:19 <oerjan> which is related to but not the same as homology
04:29:55 <oklofok> (we proved that the sofic shifts are exactly the simplicial complexes up to homotopy equivalence, if you use a certain topology for the shifts)
04:30:38 <oerjan> i got a book on sofic shifts and stuff but i never actually read it properly.
04:31:11 <oklofok> there was a guy from the us at our uni a few weeks ago, he does k-theory and was hoping someone could help him with it
04:31:41 <Bike> http://c431376.r76.cf2.rackcdn.com/52139/fncom-07-00098-HTML/image_m/fncom-07-00098-g003.jpg i am t, destroyer of world
04:31:46 <oerjan> the book was by douglas lind, i think
04:32:26 <oklofok> so symbolic dynamics and coding i guess
04:33:14 <oerjan> looking at the amazon page and that's how i recall the book looking
04:33:37 <oerjan> lind was the guy in seattle my advisor was mainly visiting when i was there
04:33:41 <oklofok> if you know topology and automata theory, things can be done a lot easier
04:34:04 <oklofok> (it's not bad tho, it's my favorite book and we basically cite it in every article)
04:36:14 <oklofok> we have this result that primitive Pisot substitutions generate subshifts which have only finitely many endomorphisms up to a power of the shift (previously known only for uniform substitutions and sturmian ones afaik)
04:36:39 <oklofok> we sent this to ergodic theory and dynamical systems and the referee told us fuck you read some literature and cite my articles
04:37:01 <oklofok> so we've done some reading, and skau had some related article
04:37:18 <oklofok> anyway i bump into him a lot these days
04:37:30 <oerjan> that doesn't _quite_ sound like the skau i knew. but i guess he might get angry about such stuff.
04:37:42 <oklofok> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0807.3621.pdf
04:38:11 <oklofok> maybe not quite related results, but something i feel like i should read
04:38:12 * oerjan swats oklofok for linking directly to the pdf -----###
04:38:49 <oklofok> i wrote "skau substitutions bratteli" in the search field
04:38:59 <oklofok> http://arxiv.org/abs/0807.3621
04:39:40 <oerjan> yeah that's pretty close to my phd work
04:40:01 <oerjan> and i'm sure i must have got that article at some point
04:40:14 <oklofok> do you know mike boyle by any chance
04:41:19 <HackEgo> olist 927: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly
04:41:20 <oklofok> they may have published that in a journal 10 years ago?
04:41:45 <oklofok> http://citeseer.uark.edu:8080/citeseerx/showciting;jsessionid=30F12E707AA136586DCDA2540FD75CB4?cid=556314
04:41:47 <oerjan> gah why won't pdfs open in my browser any more
04:41:56 <oklofok> i had that problem at some point
04:41:58 <oerjan> oklofok: mike boyle is a name i've heard
04:42:02 <oklofok> i err.... don't remember what i did
04:42:13 <oerjan> i just don't remember in what context
04:42:20 <oklofok> boyle visited our university a couple weeks ago
04:43:13 <oklofok> the first thing he said to us was "always nice to meet people who can solve problems i can't"
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04:44:10 * oerjan recalls a number of names on that citation list
04:45:14 <oerjan> søren eilers and alan forrest in particular
04:45:47 <oklofok> Ki Hang Kim, Fred Roush <<< these guys are sort of legends
04:45:52 * oerjan recalls alan forrest arranging whisky tasting for us when he was visiting trondheim
04:46:14 <oklofok> Luca, Q. Zamboni <<< this guy is a visiting professor at our university
04:46:30 <Bike> mathematician and ice rink maintenance inventor
04:46:30 <oklofok> kim and roush do (well, did) symbolic dynamics
04:47:06 <oerjan> i have this vague bell on luca, not sure if i'm confusing him with someone else.
04:47:31 <oklofok> luca is easy to confuse (we have another luca at the university for example)
04:48:02 <oerjan> <oklofok> they may have published that in a journal 10 years ago? <-- or at least circulating preprints
04:48:29 <oerjan> i certainly remember durand, he was my thesis opponent
04:50:10 <oklofok> do you know alessandro maass
04:53:59 <oklofok> i'm going to chile in a few weeks to try to get him to be my postdoc supervisor next year
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05:20:20 <Sgeo> I almost thought "The Newsroom" was "Onion News Empire"
05:20:25 <Sgeo> I've watched an episode of the latter
05:20:32 <Bike> they're basically equivalent.
05:27:42 <Sgeo> http://www.avclub.com/articles/amazon-orders-alpha-house-betas-tumbleaf-other-sho,98322/
05:27:55 <Sgeo> Does this mean ONE won't be a thing?
05:28:18 <Bike> i heard one was kind of bad anyway
05:31:54 <kmc> yeah I'm sad that ONE wasn't picked up
05:32:22 <kmc> i watched the ONE pilot and thought it was pretty good
05:33:22 <kmc> and I watched the Betas pilot and though it was pretty bad & borderline offensive, but might go somewhere entertaining
05:33:43 <kmc> also The Newsroom is really bad & not at all borderline offensive, and deserves to be mocked mercilessly
05:33:54 <kmc> although I read that ONE was conceived independently and just looks like a parody by coincidence
05:34:06 * kmc meant "not-at-all-borderline offensive", above
05:38:49 <Sgeo> ONE was the only pilot I watched :/
05:39:01 <Sgeo> I'd like to at least be able to rewatch the pilot, can't even do that
05:39:10 <Sgeo> (At least, not legally, haven't checked non-legally)
05:39:19 <kmc> i... bet you can do it non-legally
05:39:42 <kmc> god, The Newsroom is so awful
05:39:48 <kmc> and I feel so dirty for watching all of it
05:40:06 <kmc> at least I can take comfort in the fact that I stole it all
05:40:49 <Sgeo> I was close to buying a season of The Newsroom because I thought it was ONE
05:40:57 <kmc> you dodged a bullet there
05:41:05 <Bike> it's cool how everyone i know who watched the newsroom hated it and they also watched all of it because of reasons beyond me
05:41:32 <shachaf> i don't watch much television
05:41:35 <shachaf> in fact, i don't even own one
05:41:43 <shachaf> not sure what to do with it
05:41:57 <Bike> sell it for scrap
05:42:00 <Sgeo> I don't watch much TV on the TV
05:42:24 <Sgeo> (Actually, that's a total lie, I do sometimes, just thought it's fun how most of my TV viewing isn't on a TV)
05:42:32 <kmc> Bike: I'm going to make a serious effort not to start watching Season 3
05:42:34 <shachaf> i went to a talk about how the chromecast works, some of it is p. neat
05:42:54 <kmc> it's not just a shitty show, it's full of socially regressive crap
05:43:25 <Bike> yeah i heard about the uganda trip
05:43:25 <shachaf> what if it was the latter but not the former
05:43:32 <kmc> that would be worse I guess
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05:55:39 <oklofok> what sort of socially regressive crap?
05:57:27 <kmc> the white lady who goes to africa and meets a bunch of one-dimensional african characters whose lives and deaths (because africa is a homogenous place of violence) serve only to give her an Emotionally Significant Experience
05:58:56 <kmc> and then when she comes back she changes her appearance and starts having more sex, and there's no way this is a legitimate choice or part of her emotional experience, it's just a cry for help so that the Sensitive Guy will come and fix her
05:59:26 <kmc> this really goes much deeper than the usual "Sorkin can't write for women" or "Sorkin's female characters are bizarrely incompetent" though there's plenty of that too
06:01:25 <kmc> http://www.wrongingrights.com/2013/08/time-for-a-bechdel-test-for-african-characters-some-thoughts-on-the-newsrooms-very-special-africa-episode.html on the former
06:01:36 <kmc> btw an awesome blog
06:04:13 <kmc> Bike: the sole reason for still watching is that the dialogue is entertainingly snappy
06:04:44 <Bike> again, just what the others say
06:05:00 <kmc> but you said "reasons beyond me", I think it's pretty simple really
06:05:09 <kmc> the full shittiness of the plotline I described was only evident in the final episode
06:05:14 <Bike> makes sense i guess.
06:05:44 <kmc> the problem is that Sorkin is too much of an egomaniac to work with a writing team who can handle things like plot and characters and not being sexist
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07:27:15 <fizzie> Heh, someone from the department has made a singing voice synthesis listening test, and put a youtube link to a one-hour "best vocaloid songs" mix as a "if you don't know what singing voice synthesis is" postscript in the email.
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07:55:02 <fizzie> Aw, the listening test itself was just simple sung notes and note sequences and not some strange jpop songs.
07:57:18 <Bike> put some manbo dead behind the house p in there next time
08:00:21 <fizzie> That sounds kind of alternative.
08:00:50 <fizzie> "The YouTube account associated with this video has been terminated due to multiple third-party notifications of copyright infringement."
08:02:07 <Bike> fizzie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhKIOZnPjtg
08:02:33 <fizzie> Yes, Google put me to http://vocaloidlist.com/songs.php?artist=Manbo-Dead-Behind-The-House-P already.
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08:10:36 <fizzie> "Simulation of an Analog Circuit of a Wah Pedal: A Port-Hamiltonian Approach"
08:10:52 <fizzie> (Possibly also: good title for a song?)
08:11:30 <Jafet> The Port-Hamiltonians
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10:12:02 <fizzie> "Megabats constitute the suborder Megachiroptera, family Pteropodidae of the order Chiroptera (bats). They are also called fruit bats, --" megabats!
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12:15:16 * boily is sad “but, but... I wanted to good morning them...”
12:15:34 <boily> good unmorninged morning...
12:24:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
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12:46:19 <boily> `relcome dddtest_b6632
12:46:22 <HackEgo> dddtest_b6632: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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13:03:22 <boily> dddtest_66d7c: hi? who are you? what do you think of eggplants?
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13:40:44 <FireFly> What size limits are there to redcode programs? obviously they'd have to be at most (core size)/2
13:41:13 <john_metcalf> It depends which simulator / hill you're playing for.
13:41:59 <john_metcalf> I think pMARS has a hardwired 500 instruction limit. Most of the hills have lower limits. E.g. For CORESIZE 8000 the limit is normally 100 instructions.
13:43:56 <john_metcalf> Most successful programs tend to be between 5 and 15 instructions. Any remaining instructions are often used to create a decoy, of for a quick unrolled scan or bombing loop.
13:47:28 <FireFly> I'm just pondering what a core wars-like befunge-based game could look like
13:49:22 <john_metcalf> I'm not sure about befunge, but there are a couple of 2D programming games. One is similar to Core War http://corewar.co.uk/corelife
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14:01:34 <metasepia> CYUL 301300Z 24014KT 15SM FEW020 BKN070 OVC100 02/M02 A3026 RMK SC1AC7AC1 SC TR SLP250
14:01:55 <boily> strange. it's about the same temperature down around dddtest_3b44b's area as here.
14:02:04 <metasepia> KMCO 301353Z 01007KT 10SM FEW042 SCT085 SCT250 25/19 A3025 RMK AO2 SLP240 T02500194
14:02:12 <boily> uhm. well. typo on my part.
14:02:25 <boily> ~eval (25 * 9/5) + 32
14:02:29 <boily> ~eval (25 * 9/5) + 32
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14:41:25 <Taneb> I've got bread in the oven
14:43:19 <Taneb> I'm glad I remembered about that
14:43:26 <Taneb> I ran and it's done to perfection
14:43:40 <boily> how will you call the baby?
14:43:56 <FireFly> Phantom_Hoover: apparently they've been for the past nine months
14:44:59 <boily> FireFly: I think Taneb is male. probably. perhaps. maybe. hth.
14:45:23 <FireFly> This development is most surprising
14:45:28 <boily> Taneb: how many genders do you possess?
14:45:29 <Taneb> boily, I'm going to name her "boily" after you
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14:45:52 <boily> I'm flattered. and perturbed.
14:51:33 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards. (see also: d-modules)
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14:52:21 <boily> `learn Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards, and five genders. (See also: d-modules)
14:52:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
14:53:13 <FireFly> I didn't know HackEgo has `learn
14:53:25 <FireFly> I thought the de-facto standard way of editing factoids was via sed and cat
14:54:28 <boily> ̀learn obliterates the current wisdom, while sedding and catting and echoing do stuff.
14:55:21 <FireFly> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/2b44fd8613ec/wisdom/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d/d I think something might've gone wrong
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14:59:12 <boily> FireFly: that is perfectly normal, natural, andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
15:00:59 <FireFly> `run mkdir wisdom/e; ln -s wisdom/e/e wisdom/e; echo f >wisdom/e/f
15:01:03 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `wisdom/e': File exists
15:01:39 <FireFly> oh I had the argument order to ln wrong anyway
15:03:38 <boily> “ln” is the USB of the software world. you'll get the arguments in the right order after the second swap.
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15:10:49 <FireFly> But then again arguably the argument order is sane since it mirrors that of `cp`
15:16:11 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
15:21:50 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
15:22:34 <nooodl> what the heck happened there
15:22:55 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/ls
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15:24:10 <JWinslow23> Should my Krash language have multiple cars and/or a track with turns?
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15:24:48 <Phantom_Hoover> why does your pancake language not have multiflipping as an operation
15:25:06 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancake_sorting read this, there will be a test in week 1 of term 3
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15:25:33 <boily> I ain't in school anymore! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH AH!
15:25:42 <boily> (but I still have nightmares about it)
15:26:27 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
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15:32:03 <boily> `relcome dialektika
15:32:06 <HackEgo> dialektika: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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15:32:53 <boily> woah. my first witness to a live k-line!
15:36:13 <nooodl> probably spam somewhere else
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16:39:44 <HackEgo> Ixxie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:39:48 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:40:19 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ls: No such file or directory
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16:41:17 <Ixxie> I thought this was a channel to discuss Esoteric mysticism lol
16:41:36 <Ixxie> that Ewige Blumenkraft deceived me xD
16:42:07 <oerjan> the topics here tend to be deceptive more often than not
16:43:08 <Ixxie> well deception is awesome
16:43:24 <Ixxie> I am very novice in programming, most certainly clueless on esoteric programming
16:44:09 <HackEgo> patching file ls \ patching file ls
16:44:23 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ ⊥ \ ⌨ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛
16:44:32 <oerjan> ok that didn't actually help
16:44:37 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ls: No such file or directory
16:44:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^969195 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
16:45:12 <oerjan> `run mv bin/ls\ bin/ls
16:45:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^969195 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
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16:45:28 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try `pastewisdom instead.
16:46:06 <oerjan> it seems zzo38 broke that for some reason. perhaps even a good one.
16:47:06 <FireFly> wouldn't ls simply be outside of HackEgo's home dir?
16:48:01 <oerjan> FireFly: the default one, yes.
16:48:09 <FireFly> Yeah, I just noticed the purpose of bin/ls
16:48:27 <FireFly> I helps to actually read all the HackEgo output before writing stuff
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16:50:03 <oerjan> otoh it's not very useful after the nicks got shuffled off the end by the weird symbols.
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16:52:03 <FireFly> And then again it's not as annoying as `list is
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16:55:34 <boily> oerjan: maybe “`ls wisdom” should point to the PDF?
16:56:09 <boily> @tell zzo38 why did you break the list that should be broken? (if you had a good reason, please disreregard this message.)
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16:56:27 <boily> @tell zzo38 shouldn't. not should. as it should.
16:56:57 <oerjan> actually i thought the first fit. the ls _should_ be broken for wisdom.
16:57:45 <boily> @tell zzo38 well, it all depends on your point of oerjan.
16:57:55 <boily> @tell zzo38 (sorry for spamming.)
16:58:08 <boily> oerjan: there, that should make it.
16:58:36 <oerjan> boily: i shall amuse myself by letting you change bin/ls to point to the pdf.
17:00:25 <oerjan> aka "sed, the comedic farce tool"
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17:00:51 <boily> I ain't be using the sed-mower on ls. too dangerous.
17:01:32 <boily> I'll trying echoing it.
17:02:09 <oerjan> aka "shell escaping, the comedic farce tool"
17:03:26 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's:`pastewisdom:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf:' bin/ls # ought to work
17:03:28 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 22: unknown option to `s'
17:03:52 <FireFly> `run sed -i 's#`pastewisdom#https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf#' bin/ls # ought to work
17:04:02 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.
17:04:31 <boily> just as I was typing the Glorious Command, I was outfireflied.
17:04:56 * boily smacks FireFly with leaning toothpicks
17:04:56 <fizzie> boily: Just be comforted by the fact that you'd probably have screwed it up somehow.
17:05:09 <boily> that's besides the point.
17:05:37 * FireFly ponders whether to `revert
17:05:41 <nooodl> `run cat wisdom/bonvenon
17:05:42 <HackEgo> bonvenon Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-o: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
17:06:23 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/bonvenon //' wisdom/bonvenon
17:06:36 <oerjan> someone doesn't understand `learn.
17:06:40 <nooodl> `run sed -i 's/Viki-o/Viki-on/' wisdom/bonvenon
17:06:52 <nooodl> or the accusative, for that matter
17:07:08 <oerjan> i suspect google did that?
17:07:10 <nooodl> the culprit is... me...
17:07:26 <Koen_> should it be "vizitu la Viki-on"?
17:07:28 <nooodl> that was my first day in #esoteric too. or second. something like that
17:07:56 <oerjan> Koen_: um like, he changed it right there.
17:08:01 <Taneb> Do I risk getting changed into my Jake English cosplay now, or in an hour and three quarters?
17:08:02 <nooodl> Koen_: yeah. "la Viki-on" is a direct object
17:08:24 <Koen_> oerjan: sorry my brain filters all lines that contain too much slashes
17:09:14 <boily> say, supposing that we may hypothetically have a quenya (and/or sindarin) welcome some day in the foreseeable future, what kind of encoding should we use?
17:10:03 <oerjan> i note that typing "jake english" into google automatically adds "cosplay" as a suggestion
17:10:10 <fizzie> boily: The ConScript one?
17:10:17 <nooodl> http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n1641/n1641.htm
17:11:03 <fizzie> You can't use the Everson proposal directly because it has "xx"s in the codepoints.
17:11:12 <fizzie> (Is the ConScript just that directly mapped, though? It might be.)
17:12:35 <fizzie> http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/tengwar.html sure looks pretty similar.
17:13:27 <boily> yes, but the dkuug version suggests U+1CC00..U+1CC7F, which makes more sense.
17:14:12 <fizzie> boily: You can't just randomly select currently unused code points.
17:14:33 <boily> beuh. if only it were that simple.
17:14:56 <oerjan> you realize 99.9% of everyone won't see it properly anyway.
17:15:02 <fizzie> boily: At least the ConScript registry lives inside the private use area and so won't be trampled by actual Unicode, and there's several fonts with Tengwar characters in the code points proposed there.
17:15:16 <fizzie> oerjan: That sounds like an underestimate.
17:15:46 <fizzie> "The following Unicode sample (which repeats the one above) is meaningful when viewed under a typeface supporting tengwar glyphs in the area defined in the ConScript tengwar proposal. Some typefaces that support this proposal are Everson Mono, Tengwar Telcontar, Constructium, Tengwar Formal Unicode, and FreeMonoTengwar --" <-- see, several.
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17:19:08 <fizzie> boily: Alternatively, you could encode it in three different ways (Everson's original suggestion, the CSUR private-use block, and the de-facto on-top-of-ISO-8859-1 encoding), and provide three welcomes.
17:21:57 <boily> that sounds painful. exactly what is needed to assenate on newcomers.
17:24:17 <boily> with webclients and suchlike, Everson's proposition should be typeset first, imho.
17:24:36 <john_metcalf> Random question: is anyone here at The University of Western Ontario?
17:24:57 <boily> (if you're using weechat, check this out → http://cormier.github.io/glowing-bear/)
17:25:18 <boily> john_metcalf: coppro is probably close.
17:25:40 <coppro> john_metcalf: I'm at Waterloo
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17:27:14 <coppro> oerjan appears to have met his Waterloo
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17:30:19 <FireFly> Why *don't* we have tengwar and klingon `welcome variants, by the way?
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18:01:08 <fizzie> Since the previous one was so popular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCXR1sHfccY
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18:05:18 <boily> fizzie: oh, another one!
18:05:29 <boily> (and a subtle “A!”)
18:06:49 <fizzie> boily: I think I'll make a winter one in, well, the winter.
18:07:20 <fizzie> Also the A! gets lit up near the end.
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18:19:06 <john_metcalf> coppro: Just I was trying to contact someone at UWO, but his email address is bouncing.
18:20:01 <john_metcalf> I've got a new email address to try now though...
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19:00:43 <Bike> heh, i like this problem. pick a point on a side of the unit square, and then another point on a different side. what's the expected value of the distance between the two points?
19:01:02 <ais523> Bike: depends on the randomization algorithm you use
19:01:57 <Bike> uniform distributions.
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19:14:02 <boily> uniform distribution → http://www.canadianlinen.com/~/media/Images/Home%20Banner/pyyco-ca.ashx
19:15:02 <Bike> oh i get it. it's a pun. since that company distributes uniforms.
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19:34:21 <tswett_> So I'm trying to come up with an esolang consisting entirely of syntactic sugar for a Turing machine.
19:34:54 <Bike> that was published in sigbovik once.
19:35:14 <Bike> yeah. it was called "cell" or suchlike. looked like Java.
19:37:12 <tswett_> I figured I'd feel my way through this esolang by writing a description of a Turing machine which lazily evaluates SKI calculus.
19:37:20 <tswett_> But I can't think of a great way for a Turing machine to do that.
19:37:23 <tswett_> Turing machines kinda suck.
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19:39:28 <tswett_> All right, let's see. Data types will be defined using unions and cartesian products. Each data type will have to be finite, so recursion will be prohibited.
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19:40:07 <Bike> aha, found it.
19:40:51 <tswett_> A function can take values of data types and return values of data types. Functions can call each other, but not recursively.
19:41:52 <Bike> Brother Jonathan Aldrich. (2010). "Holy States Can Save the World!" _Proceedings of the SIGBOVIK Conference, 2010_. pages 67-69.
19:41:56 <Bike> I don't think it has a DOI :(
19:43:33 <Bike> hm, i think the proceedings might actually be titled "The 9th Biarennial Workshop about Symposium on Robot Dance Party of Conference in Celebration of Harry Q. Bovik's 0x40 Birthday".
19:44:13 <tswett_> I kind of wish macron notation for hexadecimal were common.
19:44:25 <tswett_> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0̄, 1̄, 2̄, 3̄, 4̄, 5̄.
19:44:52 <tswett_> Or, alternatively (and incompatibly), 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 0̄, 1̄, 2̄, 3̄, 4̄, 5̄, 6̄, 7̄.
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19:47:21 <tswett_> Happy 0x73̄3̄0̄14̄, everyone!
19:48:58 <Fiora> gosh, it took me like 10 seconds to notice the little lines in this font
19:49:01 <FireFly> Do those use combining macrons, or are they separate dedicated codepoints for digits with macron above?
19:49:17 <tswett_> Those use combining macrons.
19:50:19 <boily> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 0̸, 1̸, 2̸, 3̸, 4̸, 5̸, 6̸, 7̸...
19:50:44 <Fiora> http://i.imgur.com/4UnBlTo.png it looks like this here
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19:50:52 <tswett_> Maybe we should be more concise and call this day 0x1̄372̄3. The number of days since January 1, 1 (counting both endpoints) in the extrapolated Gregorian calendar.
19:55:15 <Bike> i like the seven
19:55:17 <Fiora> is um is that how it's supposed to look
19:55:50 <fizzie> 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0ᷝ, 1ᷝ, 2ᷝ, 3ᷝ, 4ᷝ, 5ᷝ
19:56:03 <fizzie> (From the oft-repeated l <=> 1 font confusion.)
19:56:06 <Bike> those sure are some defaultian boxes.
19:57:00 <HackEgo> [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+1DDD COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER L]
19:58:02 <Bike> wh... why does that exist?
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19:59:38 <fizzie> There's a random sampling of combining latin letters, probably each for some specialized use.
19:59:41 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/RLCG
20:00:09 <fizzie> But of course not the *full* set, that would be ridiculous.
20:01:11 <Bike> lol they're not even contiguous, huh
20:01:27 <boily> you presumptuous indecent heretic! don't you realise that your Soul is Bound by False Assumptions, such as the Alphabetical Order of the Devil?
20:01:38 <Bike> yes, i've often thought to myself, "i need a combining æ"
20:04:01 <FireFly> http://i.imgur.com/K13iNB3.png is what they look like for me
20:05:07 <Bike> boily's look almost like katakana :-)
20:11:45 <Slereah_> http://asset-0.soup.io/asset/5997/1518_0c8a.jpeg
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20:13:40 <HackEgo> [U+3081 HIRAGANA LETTER ME] [U+30A4 KATAKANA LETTER I] [U+30B9 KATAKANA LETTER SU] [U+308F HIRAGANA LETTER WA] [U+3059 HIRAGANA LETTER SU] [U+3061 HIRAGANA LETTER TI] [U+308B HIRAGANA LETTER RU] [U+30CC KATAKANA LETTER NU]
20:14:03 <tswett_> Sure. I assume that's the same thing as "chi".
20:14:23 <tswett_> So, it says "me isu wasuchiru nu" or something.
20:14:39 <tswett_> I kind of like the idea of using "ti" instead of "chi".
20:14:40 <boily> I... tried to match the slashed digits to the best of my ability.
20:15:12 <boily> ヌ works pretty well, but everything else is... you'd have to be on the same stuff as I am, mon...
20:15:25 <boily> (namely, oolong tea, third cup of the day.)
20:15:52 <tswett_> Oh dang, they do look like that.
20:17:38 <boily> mug. ~10 oz porcelain container. tasse à café.
20:17:40 <Bike> laced with mdma.
20:17:46 <FireFly> note to self: cut down on your tea consumption
20:18:12 <boily> is that Spanish???
20:18:32 * boily *SMACKS* tswett_ with his mug'o'tea
20:18:42 <boily> quintopia: woot! will there be cookies?
20:19:10 <tswett_> Wow. Google Translate translates "メプレグントシアルギエンプエデエンテンデルエスト" as "Pregnant memory client sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est".
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20:19:40 <boily> FireFly: I shall not. tea makes me calm and serene, without any trace of violence.
20:19:54 <quintopia> boily: no. but there might be biscuits.
20:20:17 -!- boily has set topic: Pregnant memory client sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
20:20:43 <FireFly> Hm, I should try oolong. I've grown a bit tired of earl grey anyway
20:20:55 <tswett_> So that's "mepureguntoshiarugienpuedeentenderuesuto", apparently. So "puregunto" must have become "pregnant", and "shiaru gien puede en ten deru esuto" became "sialic Guillen Puede yen Ten del Est".
20:21:00 <tswett_> And "me" must have become "memory".
20:24:30 <tswett_> ”Zemepozubokudekesuchion”, eh?
20:24:43 <HackEgo> [U+201D RIGHT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK]
20:25:07 <tswett_> Dang, I didn't know my quotation marks were so fancy.
20:25:52 <tswett_> Whelp, I'm gonna head out. See you guys.
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20:27:28 <boily> more languages need the [ʒ]. that sound is sublime.
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20:45:02 <nooodl> are there combining diactritics for (han)dakuten
20:45:44 <boily> no, only fancy double quotes as seen in books.
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20:46:46 <boily> the opening and closing ones, as opposed to the «"».
20:47:06 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_quote#Typing_quotation_marks_on_a_computer_keyboard
20:49:56 <nooodl> ｶﾞｷﾞｸﾞｹﾞｺﾞ ← ｺﾚﾓﾂｶﾜﾚﾙ. (wow they're actually treated as single entities?! i guess they actually are "combining")
20:50:13 <nooodl> oh you can still copy just a ﾞ. weird
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21:01:18 <fizzie> You can see UAX #29 for the typically Unicodean definition of "grapheme clusters" (aka "user-perceived characters"), which are the things that "commonly behave as units in terms of mouse selection, arrow key movement, backspacing, and so on".
21:02:10 <fizzie> (It only includes 13 rules.)
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21:02:22 <Bike> that's uh, different from "glyphs" and "characters", is it
21:02:42 <olsner> of course it's different
21:03:00 <kmc> does Unicode have a definition of "character"?
21:03:36 <fizzie> kmc: Something like four of them.
21:03:49 <kmc> is text shaping even within scope for Unicode? that is, does it specify precisely how a sequence of e.g. Devanagari characters should appear on the screen?
21:04:16 <kmc> or does it just provide the lower-level character attributes for text shaping libraries and font formats to define these things?
21:06:22 <fizzie> I don't know, but if it does say something about that, it's going to say it in one of the annexes, which do not always require particular things for conformance, but rather provide guidance.
21:06:28 <kmc> ICU seems to have some shaping code
21:06:40 <kmc> but I think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarfBuzz is what everyone uses for shaping, in the open-source world
21:07:42 <fizzie> Like the grapheme boundary annex, which specifies a "default" and mentions that more sophisticated implementations "can and should" be more sophisticated.
21:08:06 <fizzie> Anyway, a grapheme cluster is certainly different from a glyph.
21:10:31 <fizzie> (E.g. ligatures are often a single glyph but generally not a single grapheme cluster.)
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21:13:18 <Bike> https://twitter.com/ibogost/status/395659453405474816/photo/1
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21:32:18 <kmc> http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2008/04/21/fun-from-yesterday/
21:32:29 <kmc> Buzz Aldrin Space Rainbow Tennis
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21:34:00 <Bike> took me too long to realize they weren't real
21:34:37 <Bike> Oh, Man, Twizzlers
21:35:41 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kool-Aid_Man#In_popular_culture v. encyclopedic
21:43:47 <myname> so... is there any esolang based on petri nets?
21:44:00 <myname> because i'd totally love that
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22:03:57 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/the-new-ops.png
22:05:53 <shachaf> i have many strange files in my web server directory
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23:10:01 <Bike> http://www.biostars.org/p/85108/ cool, bioinformatics is now at the "mock people's operating systems" stage of programming knowhow
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