00:00:45 <tswett_> Or perhaps just ntrapumpkin
00:01:36 <tswett_> oerjan: I think bignums would be easier if you don't use any fyte beginning with 1. You'd just do stuff in base 376 or whatever.
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00:05:21 <john_metcalf> Argh! PDFs that are only viewable online :-( No way to download.
00:05:24 <john_metcalf> Here: http://issuu.com/adpware/docs/mc069/MC069.pdf
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00:12:09 <Taneb> I'm not sure how Rel forms a category
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00:12:51 <shachaf> With relation composition.
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00:13:33 <shachaf> I like how they call the category where the objects are sets and the arrows are relations Rel, but for some reason the category where the objects are sets and the arrows are functions is called Set.
00:14:19 <Taneb> shachaf, would you rather they called it Fun?
00:14:28 <Bike> is there any actual reason for category names to be truncated to three characters.
00:14:29 <shachaf> That name would be more fun.
00:14:49 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, because mathematical notation is traditionally terse?
00:14:49 <Bike> better than the one character the rest of math uses, i guess
00:14:49 <shachaf> Bike: yes, there's a deep categorical reason but you just don't know enough to understand it
00:16:14 <Taneb> Also, do any of you have a particularly compelling reason I should not read "Categories, Types and Structures: An Introduction to Category Theory for the Working Computer Scientist" by Andrea Asperti and Giuseppe Longo
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00:16:48 <Phantom__Hoover> i seriously don't get why people complain about this, mathematical variable names are symbolic shorthands
00:16:53 <Bike> CTaSaItCTftWCS is kind of a shitty initialism?
00:17:09 <Bike> Phantom__Hoover: same reason i complain about one letter variable names in a program?
00:17:37 <Phantom__Hoover> writing out full words makes expressions significantly harder to read
00:17:43 <Taneb> shachaf, because it had a nice blue cover
00:17:51 <Phantom__Hoover> Bike, it's almost like they're different fields with different needs or something
00:18:17 <Bike> sounds like you haven't been paying attention to the univalent revoluuuuuution
00:21:12 <shachaf> no some other people made it up
00:21:16 <shachaf> Bike is just playing along
00:24:06 <shachaf> Taneb: did you purchase it or something
00:24:44 <Taneb> shachaf, no, I took it out from the library
00:24:45 * oerjan has this extremely vague memory of going to seminars mentioning univalent functions.
00:26:31 <oerjan> and quasiconformal mappings.
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00:32:37 <tswett_> It is kind of interesting how variables in math usually have short names and variables in programming usually have long names.
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00:33:19 <tswett_> It's explained by some degree, I think, by the fact that mathematical expressions are almost always embedded in prose, whereas programming statements usually are not.
00:35:11 <tswett_> There are exceptions, of course. "(a -> b -> c) -> (a -> b) -> a -> c" is probably easier to read than "(sharedArgumentType -> intermediateResultType -> finalResultType) -> (sharedArgumentType -> intermediateResultType) -> sharedArgumentType -> finalResultType".
00:35:12 <Koen_> also when you do math with your hand and a pen you want the variable names to be as short as possible
00:35:37 <Koen_> and you want "xy" to mean "x times y" or something, not "one identifier named with two letters"
00:35:51 <Koen_> whereas when you program you want people to understand what you're doing
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00:36:27 <Koen_> I also think lambda-calculus uses a lot more short variable names than imperative programming
00:36:42 <Koen_> which might be a consequence of variables being bounds or free etc.
00:36:58 <Koen_> that is, you know what a variable stands for because you know where it was defined
00:37:41 <Koen_> when you write int(f(x)dx) you don't need anyone to explain to you what x stands for, because it's bound to the integral
00:38:09 <Koen_> whereas in imperative programming if your program starts with "int x;" it's kinda hard to know what it is
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00:51:23 <kmc> yeah, short arbitrary names are good when they are so general that nothing concrete can apply
00:51:45 <kmc> and a lot of the intro Haskell stuff is like that
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00:52:08 <kmc> which probably sets up an unreasonable bias towards short names
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02:10:57 * Sgeo suddenly wants to try Microsoft Bob
02:11:33 <Sgeo> I think I used software that used a Bob-like interface
02:11:38 <Sgeo> Greeting Workshop
02:12:18 <Sgeo> http://www.danielsays.com/daniel-says-images/dlcc/microsoft-bob/bob-lives/bob-in-ms-greetings-workshop-10.gif
02:12:22 <Sgeo> http://www.danielsays.com/ms-bob-16-bob-lives.html
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02:21:30 <kmc> I used Bob!!!
02:24:36 <kmc> we had... hm, not Microsoft Plus!, but some other thing
02:25:32 <kmc> i guess it was just one of the things you get with a Gateway 2000 computer
02:25:40 <kmc> I also borrowed a bunch of these from the library: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_games_from_The_Magic_School_Bus
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03:29:20 <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
03:29:26 <kmc> I used them a bit from Visual Basic
03:30:11 <ais523\unfoog> `addquote <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
03:30:15 <HackEgo> 1125) <kmc> Sgeo: oh yeah those animated characters were built into the operating system and there was an API for them
03:30:35 <Sgeo> Microsoft Agent is how I got into Creatures
03:31:01 <Sgeo> (I was interested in 'agent', stumbled upon some site that collected... stuff that just happened to use the word, and C3/DS uses the term 'agent')
03:31:15 <ais523\unfoog> and ofc it makes Wine harder to write because now it has to provide animated paperclip APIs, just in case
03:31:37 <Sgeo> Also, there was some chat program where you'd chat via Microsoft Agent. You'd download people's friends list to chat with them
03:31:55 <Sgeo> I would send a command that put the agents to sleep, which stopped them from talking
03:31:58 <Sgeo> Kind of trollish really
03:33:18 <kmc> well I mean "operating system" here in a sense that maps to "Debian" or "GNOME" and not like "Linux kernel"
03:33:31 <kmc> probably it's a DLL and that DLL might work unmodified in WINE
03:33:50 <ais523\unfoog> kmc: Windows devs use the term "kernel" to include many of the important libraries too
03:33:58 <kmc> Sgeo: wow that's even weirder than Comic Chat
03:35:57 <Sgeo> http://thecyberbuddy.com/
03:36:04 <Sgeo> The FAQ certainly sounds like the chat system I remember
03:36:12 <Sgeo> http://thecyberbuddy.com/Page7.html#QQ19
03:36:31 <pikhq> ais523\unfoog: That's courtesy of a pair of legacy issues.
03:36:43 <pikhq> First, kernel.dll was the closest to the kernel on Win16 there was.
03:36:49 <Sgeo> I think I was banned from one of the main chatbots on there
03:36:51 <Sgeo> A long time ago
03:36:58 <pikhq> Second, kernel32.dll is the only documented kernel entry point.
03:37:40 <kmc> i will not be your "cyber buddy"
03:38:18 <kmc> i like how late 90s / early 00s Microsoft just did not give a fuck about using the correct names for anything
03:38:29 <kmc> or actually implementing the standards they claimed to implement, etc
03:40:20 <shachaf> @ask mnoqy i think this calls for a self portrait of Sgeo
03:40:26 <ais523\unfoog> pikhq: pretty much everything in Windows is somehow caused by legacy issues
03:40:35 <ais523\unfoog> except the frequent changes to their recommendations for UI toolkits
03:45:31 <shachaf> kmc: should i see Carrie (musical) this weekend
03:46:38 <kmc> don't know anything about that
03:48:06 <shachaf> isn't that what i pay you for :'(
03:49:24 <kmc> http://wereverinmylaptop.tumblr.com/post/56728391141/snakes-guido-mocafico
03:51:22 <kmc> don't think so
03:56:43 <kmc> hard to know for sure
03:57:02 <Bike> listen to snake hisses and check if you're turned on
03:57:08 <Bike> of course, you may just be an asexual snake
03:57:14 <kmc> or i could be a human with a snake fetish
03:57:17 <oerjan> that doesn't work in our furry age
03:57:23 <kmc> more like scaly
03:57:32 <Bike> i'm not saying there aren't false positives or negatives here!!
03:57:33 <kmc> spider / snake slash fiction
03:57:44 <kmc> Bike: please rephrase in terms of "Type I" and "Type II" errors
03:57:58 <shachaf> that terminology is no better
03:58:09 <oerjan> webscale porn, sounds darnmyinnerdictionaryturnedoffagai
03:58:53 <oerjan> are off-by-one errors type I or type II
03:59:08 <shachaf> kmc: you were kind of snaky last time i saw
03:59:37 <shachaf> you had things snakes have like eyes and a tongue
03:59:39 <kmc> 'COMBINING SNAKE BELOW' (U+1DC2) what
03:59:56 <Bike> `unicode 'COMBINING SNAKE BELOW'
04:00:09 <Bike> i may have already forgotten how this program works :(
04:00:32 <oerjan> Bike: rule (1): if you want _any_ kind of quoting, use `run.
04:00:33 <shachaf> did you know chrome has an ed emulation mode
04:00:40 <shachaf> type a command in the address bar and press ^E
04:00:44 <kmc> `run python -c 'print u"hi\u1dc2".encode("utf-8")'
04:01:29 <oerjan> `run unicode 'COMBINING SNAKE BELOW'
04:01:33 <Bike> cool this program from 1987 is called "PATH" so i will never find it, ever
04:01:51 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
04:02:42 <shachaf> i have two cell phones next to each other
04:02:50 <shachaf> one of them vibrated, which turned the screen on in the other one
04:03:18 <ais523\unfoog> I'm saddened by the sudden realisation that cellphone slash fiction almost certainly already exists :(
04:03:20 <ion> shachaf: Please go on. I’m interested to hear about the whole Rube Goldberg device.
04:04:59 <shachaf> ion: did you learn any exciting category things since last time
04:05:00 <kmc> forbidden love between an iphone and an htc one
04:05:59 <shachaf> forbidden love is allowed in here
04:07:28 <kmc> good to know
04:07:39 <shachaf> kmc: ok do you think Distributive and Representable should both exist "hard to decide"
04:07:50 <ion> shachaf: Not yet. I haven’t been very productive for a while.
04:08:20 <shachaf> class Distributive g where distribute :: Functor f => f (g a) -> g (f a)
04:08:30 <Bike> cool, this chaos paper uses the unit bits/week
04:09:20 <shachaf> er, Functor g => Distributive g
04:09:24 <ion> IO String -> [IO Char]
04:09:53 <shachaf> class Distributive g => g where type Key g :: *; to :: (Key g -> a) -> g a; from :: g a -> Key g -> a
04:10:12 <shachaf> er, Distributive g => Representable g
04:10:46 <shachaf> Representable is for a functor G where G a ~~ T -> a for some T
04:11:23 <shachaf> Distributive ends up having instances for all the same types but it has less power
04:11:28 <shachaf> so does it deserve to exist
04:11:55 <ion> Are there useful Distributive instances without useful Representable instances?
04:12:22 <Bike> is there a kind-level Representable instance between Distributive and Representable
04:12:56 <shachaf> Bike: is that supposed to make sense or should i just stop trying to figure it out
04:13:14 <shachaf> ion: I think every type which is an instance of Distributive is also an instance of Representable.
04:13:34 <ion> Doesn’t sound like a too useful separation then.
04:14:05 <shachaf> Does it give you less power in a useful way? If you make a function which is generic over Distributive or something?
04:17:01 <ion> If there’s a combined instance, can you not still write that function?
04:19:01 <shachaf> copumpkin: is this you a billion years in the future?? http://mathoverflow.net/users/342/sixwingedseraph
04:20:02 <ion> Like Applicative combines Apply and Pointed? Or what would the alternative have been?
04:20:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure what you mean.
04:20:30 <ion> Me neither.
04:21:44 <ion> From what i understood, you pointed out two classes with a dependency between them and said every instance of either one is an instance of another. So i thought you were thinking of combining the classes.
04:22:20 <shachaf> Oh. Yes. Combining them into Representable.
04:22:41 <shachaf> Since you can write Distributive easily with to and from.
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05:11:04 <oklofok> "<Phantom__Hoover> writing out full words makes expressions significantly harder to read" but category names are not used in expressions much
05:11:26 <oklofok> that's probably why they are truncated _so little_
05:11:49 <Bike> but still truncated?
05:14:48 <oklofok> "<tswett_> It is kind of interesting how variables in math usually have short names and variables in programming usually have long names." <<< i've always figured this is because you need so many names in programming, while in math you often need just a few vectors. the things that are nonstandard but you need to remember for the whole of the article are usually definitions
05:14:55 <oklofok> and definitions are often just an english word
05:15:12 <oklofok> "We call such a sequence \emph{asstastic}."
05:16:04 <shachaf> what was that question about homotopy or something
05:17:42 <Bike> asstastic prime
05:19:22 <oklofok> shachaf: um i don't recall there being a question
05:19:36 <oklofok> i don't know why i said "vectors"
05:20:31 <Bike> «The noun ‘Pegasus’ itself could then be treated as derivative, and identified after all with a description: ‘the thing that is-Pegasus’, ‘the thing that pegasizes’.»
05:21:42 <oklofok> i personally find one symbol variables annoying, because they are so annoying to look up when you don't remember what they mean (sometimes you basically have to start over).
05:22:03 <oklofok> a longer word you could just search for
05:22:43 <oklofok> if i had a working symbol search that could separate mathmode from textmode, i don't think there would be any problem
05:22:44 <Bike> i guess that ties into the whole 'predates computers' thing.
05:25:47 <oklofok> lol some guy from the czech republic solved my geocaching mystery (which is in finnish)
05:31:24 <kmc> oklofok: relatedly, there's the rule in programming that a variable's name length should be proportional to its scope
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05:36:57 <Bike> and that's why JavaBeanFactoryVisitorFactory is global
05:38:10 <ais523\unfoog> (CLC-INTERCAL's implementation of something similar is more interesting; each process has its own set of variables, but you can steal variables from other processes)
05:38:23 <ais523\unfoog> (stealing filehandles is a particularly nice simple way to set up a simple telnet-a-like)
05:38:46 <oklofok> kmc: i think that would be a good rule for math too
05:39:17 <oklofok> trees would have magnificent names
05:39:54 <Bike> we can rename "Cyprinodon salinus salinus" to "i jy"
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05:41:28 <oklofok> you get a long name when you're born, and a letter drops each year
05:41:38 <oklofok> when you run out of name, you are murdered.
05:42:23 <ais523\unfoog> close family and the like refer to you with shorter names
05:42:25 <Bike> what's the scope of a man
05:42:39 <ais523\unfoog> and you can use shorter nicks in smaller communities
05:42:56 <Bike> counterpoint, i am known by all and sundry as "bike"
05:43:05 <oklofok> that's another way to think about it, but it's not what i'd consider the direct analog of scope
05:43:07 <Bike> countercounterpoint, i don't know what 'sundry' means
05:43:41 <Bike> says something intelligent about minimum description length
05:43:45 <ais523\unfoog> oklofok: well, the scope of a variable is the region of the program from which it's accessible/mentionable/nameable
05:43:45 <kmc> but there are some languages/cultures where more familiar names are diminutives with extra letters
05:44:02 <Bike> "Consisting of a haphazard assortment of different kinds; miscellaneous." what a weird word
05:44:31 <ais523\unfoog> so I guess the scope of a person is either the number of people who have heard of them, the number of people who can describe them, or the number of people who could reasonably expect to be able to just look up their number, phone them up, and talk to them
05:45:45 <oklofok> i think a kid's voice is described as "sundry" in south park in the episode where cartman wants to become the... something of the school in place of wendy
05:46:28 <oklofok> and i didn't know what it means back then, and i just always remember that episode when i hear it, but not the actual meaning
05:46:41 <oklofok> maybe i've always heard wrong
05:46:49 <oklofok> but yeah they ruined my life
05:46:50 <Bike> i've only seen it in the dead phrase 'various and sundry'.
05:47:32 <Bike> which is apparently a hella pleonasm
05:47:38 <oklofok> i seemed to recall you're from the us, and tried to whois you
05:47:43 <oklofok> but i accidentally joined you.
05:47:50 <Bike> ##bike used to exist
05:47:57 <Bike> somebody joined it to ask about bikes once
05:48:17 <Bike> i of course do not endorse ##bike, as indicated by the name
05:48:21 <oklofok> i've been on #unicycling so why not
05:48:42 <Bike> i tried to link them to a channel about biking but i couldn't find one.
05:49:17 <Bike> kind of niche compared to php i guess
05:49:32 <shachaf> wait you were already talking about that word
05:50:08 <shachaf> kmc: 22:11 <nwf> http://www.jwz.org/images/lzamexm.gif -- mri of a banana. That's trippy.
05:51:04 <oerjan> now i can never eat bananas again.
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05:51:18 <Bike> great, i don't remember if bananas are fruits or what.
05:51:41 <Bike> i mean, have you seen a banana tree? that shit is weird.
05:51:54 <shachaf> 22:47 <lexande> nwf: banana flower, not banana fruit
05:52:00 <shachaf> Bike: p. sure bananas don't grow on trees
05:52:11 <oerjan> of course they're not fruits, why would fruit wear pajamas
05:52:22 <shachaf> i have seen many banana trees in my time
05:52:33 <shachaf> oerjan: sounds pretty fruity to me
05:52:37 <Bike> they grow on things that are like trees but not but also are because 'tree' isn't a real category anyway
05:52:59 <Bike> have a music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnai_KrK4Ko
05:53:04 <shachaf> well they don't have a trunk
05:53:11 <shachaf> which is the main requirement to be a tree
05:53:16 <shachaf> for example elephants and cars are trees
05:53:36 <Bike> anyway mainly i was wondering if the banana had xylem and shit in it.
05:54:45 <kmc> shachaf: omg
05:55:09 <kmc> MRI of a sharkbanana
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05:56:56 <HackEgo> Uguubee111119: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:57:44 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's#http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page#<http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>#' wisdom/welcome
05:58:29 <oerjan> `relcome Uguubee111119
05:58:32 <HackEgo> Uguubee111119: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
05:58:44 <Bike> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-e3MjWHdNTkE/UlKV0MgMDEI/AAAAAAAABiQ/Z7CxO0-Q3dE/s1600/Charleysayswww-scarfolk-blogspot-com.jpg some good stuff on jwz today
05:59:50 <Bike> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dq27_3O7T38/UkgoTj0YEfI/AAAAAAAABh0/3i25ms1TQrU/s1600/porn3www-scarfolk-blogspot-com.jpg long lost educational porn films
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07:02:29 <kmc> also i lost
07:03:40 <Bike> lost sharkbananas?
07:07:09 <lambdabot> http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/kolkata/kmc-set-to-lose-crores-on-puja-ad-tax/article1-1131980.aspx
07:07:09 <lambdabot> Title: KMC set to lose crores on Puja ad tax - Hindustan Times
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07:10:31 <Bike> you know what's a weird looking function? the half iterate of sine.
07:11:04 <kmc> what about the half iteratee
07:11:05 <Bike> the function f such that f.f = sine.
07:12:15 <Bike> well, i guess the weird part is mostly that as you keep taking half iterates it looks more and more like a triangle wave.
07:13:00 <shachaf> Can you generalize this to real numbers?
07:14:19 <Bike> yeah. here, there's an exact solution for an easier one. the t-th iterate of \x -> x/(1-x) is just \x -> x/(1-x*t).
07:18:35 <lambdabot> defined at /home/lambdabot/.lambdabot/State/L.hs:149:4
07:18:44 <lambdabot> It could refer to either `L.*', defined at L.hs:1...
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07:20:32 <lambdabot> *Exception: L.hs:150:1-11: Non-exhaustive patterns in function *
07:20:43 <Bike> i didn't do it, honest!
07:21:00 <Bike> i did " @let boring t x = x/(1-x*t)" in privmsg and it said the ambiguous occurence thing.
07:22:10 <Bike> wow, i was going to try to mess with it but like...
07:22:19 <Bike> > boring 1/2 10
07:22:20 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> a -> a))
07:24:30 <Bike> wait, so i did that somehow?
07:25:43 <Bike> ...does "boring 1/2 10" parse as "(boring 1)/(2 10)"? or something?
07:25:55 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Num.Num (GHC.Integer.Type.Integer -> a -> a))
07:26:01 <Bike> > (*) (1/2) 10
07:28:28 <shachaf> Function application is sticker than any operator.
07:33:49 <Bike> so how'd the L.* thing happen.
07:35:39 <shachaf> Someone did @let x * y = ...?
07:35:46 <shachaf> 00:20 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Eq a1, Num a, Num a1, Num a2) => a -> a1 -> a2
07:36:06 <shachaf> Sounds like some 2*2=5 prank or something.
07:37:11 <kmc> go and tell the king that the sky is falling in but it's not
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09:11:16 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/VGTK that's just ridiculous.
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12:38:51 <boily> good étuve morning!
12:39:33 <boily> wisdom question: since when are we angle-quoting the URL to the Main Page in the welcomes?
12:40:07 <HackEgo> nooodl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
12:40:46 <boily> shachaf: why did you anglify the URL?
12:41:20 <FireFly> Anglifying URLs.. does that make shachaf an angler?
12:42:07 <boily> angler, as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lophius_piscatorius?
12:50:59 <fizzie> boily: I assume because some clients/terminals/etc. otherwise interpret the trailing '.' as part of the URL.
12:52:53 <nooodl> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page%2E works for me
12:56:01 <fizzie> I guess that's a workaround.
12:58:38 <nooodl> well what i'm saying is the extra . doesn't seem to matter either way
13:00:43 <boily> welcome to #esoteric, where everything is off-topic and the points don't matter!
13:02:14 <FireFly> the points are... pointless
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13:48:05 <HackEgo> [U+00D0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH] [U+0110 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER D WITH STROKE]
13:48:39 <Taneb> `unicode MULTIOCULAR O
13:48:46 <Bike> we're always doing this.
13:48:56 <Taneb> `unicode CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O
13:49:37 <boily> mrhmouse: I was wikiwalking, and they mentioned capital eth and stroken-d being very similar. I had to verify their claim.
13:49:51 <boily> (you know, when you really have to know a useless fact.)
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14:26:19 <john_metcalf> I've just installed the SainT Atari ST emulator. It even simulates the noise of the disk drive!
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14:54:33 <boily> quintopia: you may receive the cookies today and/or Monday.
14:59:13 <boily> (meanwhile Up North, it's raining sideways.)
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16:20:21 <mroman> and I might have a heart attack
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16:30:43 <oerjan> <Bike> you know what's a weird looking function? the half iterate of sine. <-- i am not sure that half iterates are particularly uniquely defined.
16:31:09 <oerjan> when they exist at all.
16:31:53 <oerjan> i suppose having a continuous one at all is an accomplishment, which a triangle wave certainly is.
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16:36:50 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Eq a1, Num a, Num a1, Num a2) => a -> a1 -> a2
16:37:14 <oerjan> shachaf: perfect type match!
16:43:23 <FreeFull> I have seen * be redefined locally to be some arbitrary operator
16:43:35 <oerjan> <boily> (meanwhile Up North, it's raining sideways.) <-- have you checked that the landscape hasn't just tilted?
16:43:54 <oerjan> FreeFull: completely legal
16:44:31 <FreeFull> Just a bit weird to see * not be multiplication
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16:44:57 <FreeFull> I think this is where I saw it
16:46:12 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> (meanwhile Up North, it's raining sideways.) <-- have you checked that the landscape hasn't just tilted?
16:50:55 <Bike> oerjan: in general they're not. half-iterates of identity are a pretty good example
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16:52:49 <boily> oerjan: strong gusts around 40 kt.
16:52:57 <oerjan> > [sin x | x <- [-1,-0.8 .. 1::Float]]
16:52:59 <lambdabot> [-0.84147096,-0.7173561,-0.5646425,-0.38941836,-0.19866937,-5.9604645e-8,0....
16:53:22 <oerjan> > [sin x | x <- [-0.2,0 .. 1::Float]]
16:53:23 <Bike> too good for map, huh
16:53:23 <lambdabot> [-0.19866933,0.0,0.19866933,0.38941833,0.5646425,0.71735615,0.8414711]
16:53:44 <Bike> it doesn't always go well.
16:53:53 <oerjan> i suppose having a constantly shrinking range might force things?
16:53:55 <boily> ~eval map sin [-1,-0.8..1 :: Float]
16:53:55 <Bike> > [0..0.1..1.0]
16:53:56 <metasepia> [-0.84147096,-0.7173561,-0.5646425,-0.38941836,-0.19866937,-5.9604645e-8,0.19866925,0.38941827,0.56464237,0.717356,0.8414709]
16:53:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input `..'
16:54:05 <Bike> > [0,0.1..1.0]
16:54:06 <mroman> > [0.1,0.5 .. 1::Float]
16:54:06 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.1,0.2,0.30000000000000004,0.4000000000000001,0.5000000000000001,0.60...
16:54:09 <ion> I wonder if people would get mad if the powers that be just removed Enum from floats?
16:54:25 <Bike> > succ (1:: Float)
16:54:43 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: strong gusts around 40 kt. <-- kilotons? are you sure this is normal wind?
16:54:48 <ion> I wonder if that would involve fixing more code than, say, the Num/Eq/Ord change that happened before, or the Functor/Applicative/Monad change that will happen?
16:54:57 <boily> the powers that be achieved enough positive karma by constraining Monads to Applicatives, so I feel they can do whatever they want with Enums.
16:55:32 <ion> boily: That would also be positive karma as far as i’m concerned.
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16:56:00 <oerjan> <ion> I wonder if people would get mad if the powers that be just removed
16:56:06 <boily> oerjan: apparently kn is the preferable abbreviation to “knots”, but kt is accepted.
16:56:18 <boily> (insofar knots are socially correct.)
16:56:33 <oerjan> boily: depends, are you at sea?
16:56:33 <ion> kt is kilotonne. :-P
16:56:46 <Bike> kt is what killed the dinosaurs.
16:57:06 <boily> kt is a telecom in South Korea.
16:58:26 <oerjan> <ion> I wonder if people would get mad if the powers that be just removed Enum from floats? <-- well it _might_ be nice if they actually supported the standard(s) backwards compatibly as written, which they already don't do and are planning to do even less.
16:59:22 <ion> Microsoft started using kt instead of kB in Finnish (because byte is “tavu” – the Finnish grammar doesn’t let allow doing that, though, it would need to be “kt.” to be grammatically correct because it’s an abbreviation and not an official unit symbol) and the whole IT media followed.
16:59:59 <ion> Also, kt is already a SI derived unit symbol.
17:00:20 <oerjan> um tonne isn't official is it?
17:01:24 <oerjan> Bike: thus the kt boundary?
17:01:25 <ion> I actually don’t know for sure, but it’s a hell of a lot more “official” than kilotavu.
17:01:52 <boily> oerjan: “It is a non-SI unit accepted for use with SI.”
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17:02:22 <HackEgo> tertu3: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
17:02:26 <oerjan> boily: was just about to paste that
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17:10:02 <shachaf> Bike: maybe you can tell me whether naturality and continuity are related somehow
17:10:34 <Bike> naturality sounds like some kind of hippie food brand.
17:11:43 <Bike> continuity doesn't, so probably they're totally unrelated.
17:12:11 <shachaf> continuity could totally be "some kind of hippie food brand" imo
17:12:16 <oerjan> continuity is like the opposite, they want you to keep buying the old poisonous food
17:12:50 <Bike> oerjan: well "KT" just stands for "Cretaceous-Tertiary". presumably German is involved here.
17:14:31 <oerjan> i'm sure we discussed that not many weeks ago.
17:14:54 <Bike> does 'we' include me
17:14:57 <oerjan> also discovered it's now officially changed to cretaceous-paleogene.
17:15:04 <oerjan> Bike: that i don't know.
17:15:23 <Bike> paleogene also sounds like hippie food. category theorists, get on this.
17:16:52 <oerjan> well they cannot change it to c now that it is paleogene.
17:18:43 * oerjan thinks he should drop the next pun he's thinking of.
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17:21:05 <boily> I fail to understand the link between hippie brands and categories.
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17:21:43 <oerjan> boily: it's a natural transformation
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17:22:58 * boily facepalms... “hook, line, sinker...”
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17:27:08 <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:28:47 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:27:08: <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:28:53 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:28:47: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:27:08: <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:29:11 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:28:53: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:28:47: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:27:08: <HackEgo> 2013-10-29 00:06:06: <mnoqy> i don't think i'd be able to explain it though
17:29:30 <boily> I need to find a way to include django in that...
17:30:15 <Bike> well, that's easy.
17:30:20 <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named a
17:30:29 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:30:20: <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monqy> `quote django <HackEgo>
17:30:36 <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:30:29: <HackEgo> 2013-11-01 17:30:20: <HackEgo> 265) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something \ 310) <cpressey> `quote django <HackEgo> 352) <olsner> django is named after a person? <olsner> thought it would be a giraffe or something <cpressey> thankfully only one \ 311) <monq
17:31:08 <boily> sadly, it doesn't make for a good quote :(
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18:07:06 <lmt> /\\\\//\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\\\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\///\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\//////\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\//\\//\\\\/\\//\\\\\\///\\\\//\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\\\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\///\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\//////\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\//\\//\\\\/\\//\\\\\\///\\\\//\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\\\\\///\\\\/\\\\\\\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\//\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\///\\//\\\\/\\//\\/\\//////\\/\\\\\\/\\\\\\//\\//\\\\/\\//\\\\\\///\\\\//\\//\\/\\/\\\\//\\\
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18:08:42 <lmt> boily: // \ \\/ \\/ //
18:10:26 * lmt \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
18:12:06 * boily ////es lmt with a \\//\//\\\
18:15:39 <boily> it only was a small \\//\//\\\. it won't leave no bruise (well, after a week at least)
18:17:26 <mrhmouse> I wasn't interested at all in the conversation until that comment.
18:18:07 <lmt> vice versa for me
18:18:11 <lmt> i lost all interest
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18:20:51 <FreeFull> Are we making labyrinths on the C64 again?
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18:47:15 <kmc> FreeFull: like http://10print.org/ ?
18:47:30 <kmc> "labyrinth" is a much cooler word than "maze", it's true
18:48:17 <lmt> This book takes a single line of code—the extremely concise BASIC program for the Commodore 64 inscribed in the title
18:48:28 <lmt> these guys clearly haven't heard of golfscript
18:50:05 <mroman> that almost certainly will crash adobe pdf reader
18:50:17 <Bike> you've never seen a pdf that big before?
18:50:23 <Bike> i mean, it's shit, but not uncommon.
18:52:14 <boily> aren't there alternatives to the Adobe on Windows?
18:54:47 <lmt> i guess it's not actually that much shorter in golfscript?
18:55:11 <lmt> my naive approach is 1{2 rand"/""\\"if.print}do
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18:56:31 <tromp_> not much of a maze without branches
18:57:26 <lmt> tromp_: the characters themselves form a branched maze though
18:57:41 <lmt> if you print them nicely like on 10print.org
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19:08:31 <lmt> seriously though
19:08:42 <lmt> can someone tell me the right golfscript program to do that?
19:09:01 <lmt> i'm missing something with golfscript's conversion between strings and integers
19:18:04 <boily> golfscript looks strangely J-like...
19:19:28 <FreeFull> kmc: More accurate than maze too for this
19:19:37 <FreeFull> Since you don't get any branching paths
19:19:53 <FreeFull> You don't get dead-ends either
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19:51:10 <john_metcalf> Has anyone here got access to the McCarthy files at Stanford?
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20:12:12 <mroman> golfscript is J on speed
20:13:56 <mroman> which reminds me to continue working on my Mahou project
20:15:12 <mroman> Why is there no webprogramming language
20:15:21 <mroman> It would be about time for one
20:15:43 <mrhmouse> You mean like JavaScript, or am I missing something?
20:15:58 <mrhmouse> You can do JavaScript server side.
20:16:55 <mroman> I'm looking for a language really made for that purpose
20:17:09 <mroman> PHP is merely a C-Api embedded in Apache
20:17:10 <mrhmouse> You're talking about generating pages?
20:17:25 <mroman> something like haskell's route
20:17:27 <mrhmouse> JavaScript is a good candidate, actually >>
20:17:47 <mrhmouse> JavaScript still winning here.
20:18:16 <kmc> i'm confused, you are just looking for a server side web language in general? cause uh a lot of those exist
20:18:27 <kmc> what is the context of "Why is there no webprogramming language"
20:18:38 <kmc> every major language has a web framework or six
20:18:46 <mroman> I don't want a web framework
20:18:47 <kmc> Python has like two dozen
20:18:51 <mroman> Web frameworks do exists
20:19:13 <mrhmouse> So.. you want a language that does nothing but web?
20:19:35 <mroman> ideally some kind of language with very neat modelling support
20:20:08 <kmc> what would be the point of that? the things you need to do to build websites fit well into most general purpose languages
20:21:00 <mroman> but not perfectly neat
20:21:02 <mrhmouse> As I'm understanding it, you want: view generation (templates), data storage and access, URL routing, and "neat modelling support" (whatever that is)...?
20:21:19 <kmc> mroman: that should be fixed with better libraries rather than fundamentally new languages
20:21:26 <kmc> but also, there are web specific languages e.g. http://opalang.org/
20:21:47 <mroman> Django is really close to what I'd expect
20:22:02 <mroman> it essentially generates the whole database etc from python classes
20:22:27 <mrhmouse> So you want a code-first approach - plenty of frameworks offer that :P
20:23:37 <mrhmouse> Really, it sounds like you can get what you want by combining several existing libraries..
20:23:43 <mroman> I actually want modell first :)
20:24:04 <lmt> pythonpython
20:24:06 <lmt> pythonpythonpython
20:24:07 <lmt> pythonpythonpythonpython
20:24:37 <mroman> I don't want to write <li><a href="{% foo.id %}">{{foo.title}} etc
20:24:40 <kmc> say python again, say python again, i dare you, i double dare you motherfucker, say python one more goddamn time
20:24:42 <mroman> that's already too low-level
20:25:23 <lmt> oh no you didn't
20:25:28 <mroman> I want a WYSIWYG editor to create Websitse
20:25:30 <lmt> just say "too low-level" in #esoteric
20:25:54 <lmt> webscheiße
20:26:05 <olsner> fun fact: the swedish word for python means disgusting
20:26:07 <mroman> or a lanugage that suitable is close enough to wysiwy
20:26:18 <kmc> what you see is what you
20:26:26 <mroman> y brain just has shutten down
20:26:35 <kmc> all you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be
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20:26:43 <mroman> and strangely my shoulder still hurts when I breathe
20:26:58 <kmc> try breathing with your lungs instead
20:27:18 <olsner> or try not breathing, if it hurts it must be bad for you
20:27:55 <mroman> I'm gonna go back to watching some Jason Bourne Movie
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20:29:11 <mrhmouse> mroman: How's li a href: foo.d, foo.title
20:29:35 <mrhmouse> or if you write a helper method, just listAnchorFor foo
20:35:18 <kmc> mroman: you're right that there are improvements to be made in HTML template languages
20:35:24 <kmc> and those languages can be embedded within programming languages
20:35:36 <kmc> but there's no reason the encompassing programming language needs to be redesigned from scratch
20:35:48 <kmc> e.g. Yesod has some fancy template languages for HTML and CSS and JS, but it's embedded within Haskell
20:35:55 <lmt> html embedded in javascript embedded in javascript
20:36:07 <Bike> <script type="text/html">
20:36:09 <lmt> is the foreseeable future
20:36:11 <Bike> lang=, whatever
20:36:22 <mrhmouse> let's take a burger king, and put it inside a taco bell
20:36:43 <kmc> and deep fry the whole thing
20:36:51 <lmt> kmc: nuke Mountain View
20:37:09 <kmc> it's already contaminated with trichloroethane
20:37:10 <mroman> and my Monad/Lense/WeirdHaskellStuff Knowledge is not good enough for Yesod
20:37:27 <kmc> mroman: so you want a new language from scratch because you can't be bothered to learn the existing one?
20:38:04 <Bike> the premier motivation for new languages
20:38:18 <mroman> Isn't that the whole reason why there are so many languages?
20:38:26 <kmc> sorry if I'm being a jerk
20:38:47 <mroman> You have a valid point
20:38:58 <mroman> I just don't think of Haskell as "the answer"
20:39:09 <kmc> nobody said it was
20:39:11 <lmt> i don't even think of haskell as "an answer"
20:39:12 <mrhmouse> mroman: but there are plenty of other languages with comparable frameworks
20:39:13 <kmc> Yesod was just an example
20:39:20 <kmc> you can do embedded template languages in many languages
20:39:32 <kmc> the general point is that there's no reason why you need to reinvent variables and functions and for loops for Web use
20:39:42 <kmc> that's the whole point of embedded domain specific languages
20:39:57 <kmc> don't reimplement the stuff that every PL has because you'll do a bunch of work and make something shitty
20:40:06 <kmc> just embed the special stuff you need within an existing good language
20:40:07 <mroman> I'm totally aware that my expectations are not realistic
20:40:13 <kmc> your expectations are not coherent
20:40:19 <mroman> and that too probably.
20:40:23 <kmc> well ok then :)
20:40:25 <kmc> this is #esoteric
20:40:29 <kmc> make an esoteric web language :)
20:40:43 <lmt> template language embedded withtin Befunge-93
20:40:58 <mroman> There's nothing wrong with
20:41:15 <mroman> {{% for %}} ... {{% <li><a href="">{{% foo.title%}}
20:41:22 <Bike> befunge template language... maybe you have to draw out the tree
20:41:47 <mroman> There are tools which are capable of defining meta-modells
20:41:49 <lmt> Bike: it's very practical
20:41:52 <mroman> and code generator for those
20:41:55 <Bike> highly intuitive
20:42:16 <mroman> so effectively for your 0815 blog/homepage there should be some click-your-shit-together Tool
20:42:32 <Bike> hm, that gives me an idea, which i will try to do later when i am not distracted by homework and diffeomorphisms
20:42:35 <mroman> as you could define properties, relations etc. with those tools.
20:42:39 <FireFly> A web server in befunge-98 sounds like a good idea
20:43:03 <lmt> FireFly: using 98 instead of 93 will just lead to feature bloat
20:43:05 <mrhmouse> so you want a gui that generates code in a language that's specifically designed to easily write code for websites
20:43:11 <mroman> that would actually be a neat Bachelor Thingy
20:43:15 <mroman> for my Bachelors Degree
20:43:20 <mroman> in some kind of science
20:43:34 <Bike> a new kind of science
20:43:37 <FireFly> lmt: ...I'm not sure if you could fit an HTTP server in 80x25 fungespace
20:43:58 <mroman> I'm totally convinced that anything I do can't possibly be science.
20:44:51 <olsner> fungot: are you a http server?
20:44:52 <fungot> olsner: seems pretty cool... thanks. :)
20:45:40 <lmt> FireFly: of course you could
20:45:53 <olsner> hmm, a/an and acronyms is tricky... imagine that was "a hypertext [...] server"
20:45:56 <lmt> FireFly: you relize there's chess in befunge
20:46:45 <lmt> you'd have to go easy on the headers and stuff but it would still be compliant
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21:02:13 <mroman> Befunge is probably easier than Beam?
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22:21:41 <Taneb> I'm not sure if the last panel of today's El Goonish Shive is happening in canon or in an imagination spot
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23:17:21 <fungot> FireFly: html isn't a programming language.
23:17:32 <fungot> FireFly: why to which? :p. ugh i need to write
23:17:40 <FireFly> right. you need to write befunge
23:18:17 <olsner> fungot: teach FireFly befunge now
23:18:17 <fungot> olsner: ( the one that came to mind. at least as much.
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23:37:30 * oerjan notes that whatever lmt pasted was not the /// quine.
23:38:27 <oerjan> !slashes this is quite dead, right?
23:38:38 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
23:38:47 <EgoBot> userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp.
23:38:59 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf sanet
23:39:38 <oerjan> that doesn't work either :(
23:40:19 <oerjan> ok tested on command line, prints nothing.
23:40:42 <oerjan> may have got cut off, of course.
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23:47:36 <oerjan> <olsner> fun fact: the swedish word for python means disgusting <-- also norwegian.
23:48:36 <oerjan> y'all are such zombies.
23:49:20 <olsner> hi oerjan and welcome to hours after the "party"
23:49:23 <lmt> i'm not a zombie
23:49:48 <lmt> NOW you're walking.
23:50:21 <olsner> I wonder if there's a languagelog about scandinavian snake words
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23:51:05 <kmc> do io_error::cond.trap(|_| { // hoo-boy...
23:51:06 <kmc> }).inside {
23:51:13 <kmc> that's from the official docs!
23:51:18 <kmc> for how to open a file!
23:51:39 <olsner> the node.js docs recommend grepping stderr for error messages to figure out if process creation failed
23:51:54 <oerjan> slangslang från skandinavien
23:52:14 <olsner> oerjan: slang = snake in norwegian? that's so cute
23:52:29 <kmc> olsner: hilarious
23:52:40 <kmc> shachaf: conditions are *weird*
23:52:53 <lmt> python is a language, not a slang!
23:52:57 <kmc> http://static.rust-lang.org/doc/master/tutorial-conditions.html#conditions
23:53:04 <kmc> I'm told these are a big deal in CL too...
23:53:48 <kmc> shachaf: isn't it great how I can call glReadPixels and ask for 3,098,172 bytes and I get 2,154 extra bytes
23:53:53 <kmc> bonus pixels imo
23:54:05 <Bike> error-correcting pixels
23:54:29 <kmc> it corrects the error to a segfault
23:55:22 <kmc> very pixel
23:55:32 <lmt> such bytes
23:56:30 <olsner> (I did some node.js the other day, it's pretty horrible and callbacks)
23:58:12 <lmt> http://nojs.de/
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