00:01:39 <kmc> (keine js?)
00:01:47 <shachaf> whoa, dude, /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
00:02:21 <olsner> `cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid
00:02:23 <HackEgo> 4cb5772d-2326-470d-b9e0-e54c0936ad18
00:02:47 <lmt> eine.js kleine.js nachtmusik.js
00:03:25 <kmc> such uuid, very identifier
00:03:29 <kmc> this will never get old
00:03:45 <lmt> at least indent it properly
00:03:51 <olsner> I was going to say "but my real linux doesn't seem to have it" but then I noticed I was trying to *run* it, not cat it
00:03:52 <lmt> wow very uuid
00:03:56 <lmt> such unique
00:04:03 <olsner> uuids are (apparently) not executable
00:05:49 <kmc> lmt: needs color codes too
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00:18:02 <kmc> perhaps bonghits
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00:22:56 <fizzie> I think there's a small brainfucker in every one of us.
00:23:23 <lmt> small brain, small fucker
00:23:24 <kmc> `rwelcome madabyss
00:23:27 <HackEgo> madabyss: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
00:23:56 <shachaf> imo `rwelcome should be reserved for rwbarton
00:25:53 <madabyss> I'm trying to get into brainfuck just to mess around with it. I'm having trouble getting an environment setup.. What interpreter should I use?
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00:29:40 <olsner> "Just remember, ten years ago is pretty much 2004 now. Not 1990."
00:29:54 <Bike> i don't believe you
00:31:49 <olsner> it seems it's the same for everyone, "now" gets stuck somewhere and refuses to make progress in the same pace as real time
00:32:34 <olsner> (or it might just be that I'm not making the appropriate amount of progress through my life)
00:37:55 <kmc> that's kind of how I feel too
00:38:13 <kmc> (the answer is that OpenGL has a bit of global state that says whether to align pixel rows to a word boundary)
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01:09:17 <Koen_> `run trigger "____----____----____----____ iiii_i iiH L111 L H000"
01:09:19 <HackEgo> bash: trigger: command not found
01:09:37 <Koen_> ìnterp trigger "____----____----____----____ iiii_i iiH L111 L H000"
01:09:50 <Koen_> `interp trigger "____----____----____----____ iiii_i iiH L111 L H000"
01:10:35 <Koen_> well that was supposed to be a truth-machine
01:10:58 <Bike> imo redefine 0 to mean truth
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01:12:29 <fizzie> 0 is one of the outputs of a truth-machine.
01:14:33 <Koen_> the other outputs are: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 (this list is not exhaustive, you can help by expanding it)
01:14:52 <fizzie> ...1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, ... just doing my part here
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01:47:57 <Phantom__Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisher%27s_fundamental_theorem_of_natural_selection
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01:49:45 <humpdayy> Hey all! I wanna learn brainfuck. Where's a good place to start?
01:50:04 <lmt> i don't know
01:50:11 <lmt> but i can tell you what's not a good place to start
01:50:19 <lmt> http://tvtropes.org
01:50:57 <humpdayy> Okay... you were right about that.
01:51:23 <lmt> it's probably one of the worst places you could start, really
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01:52:47 <Phantom__Hoover> humpdayy, er... read the spec? read some example programs?
01:53:05 <fizzie> The esolangs.org brainfuck article is somewhat likely to be better than tvtropes.
01:54:04 <humpdayy> Fizzie: indeed. Ive been reading around the google results. Nothin is really helping me understand it.
01:54:49 <Phantom__Hoover> depending on your level of programming knowledge the answer may just be "learn something else first"
01:55:12 <oerjan> lmt: no tvtropes is a good place to start, as long as you don't need to _end_.
01:56:10 <lmt> i don't think you will learn much about brainfuck at any part of the process
01:56:51 <lmt> oops, that's not true
01:57:02 <lmt> "Brainfuck is an extremely literal implementation of a minimal turing machine where most of the actual work is done with increment and decrement instructions. Meaningful programming requires the programmer to keep very close track of the memory state as well as a thorough knowledge of the ASCII character set, so the mindscrew comes from the extreme tedium required to do anything useful. "
01:57:06 <oerjan> tvtropes's top hit for brainfuck is MindScrew/Other. seems appropriate.
01:57:08 <lmt> -- tvtropes.org
01:57:09 <Phantom__Hoover> humpdayy, OK right, where exactly are you faltering in your efforts to understand Brainfuck?
01:57:36 <lmt> "mindscrew" doesn't quite have the same ring to it
01:58:01 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPnehDhGa14
01:58:17 <lmt> that's a really bad description of brainfuck, though
01:58:28 <lmt> thorough knowledge of the ASCII character set?
01:59:04 <humpdayy> I am a programmer but i thought it be cool to learn some esoteric stuff. Brainfuck looks like fun
01:59:18 <oerjan> lmt: well it's true, how else would you write Hello, World!
01:59:31 <oerjan> i guess you don't need it for cat.
01:59:39 <lmt> i'm not sure how meaningful hello world is
01:59:54 <lmt> what does it really mean?
02:00:00 <oerjan> well you would also need it to recognize meaningful input.
02:00:31 <lmt> the program could do that itself, using a neural network
02:00:41 <lmt> thus not limiting you to any particular character set
02:00:52 <oerjan> lmt: it's an expression of greeting toward the common environment
02:02:16 <nooodl> i think befunge is much more fun to start out on
02:02:20 <nooodl> as far as fun esoprogramming goes
02:02:29 <Phantom__Hoover> humpdayy, if you can't get past the spec I really can't help you, it's one of the simplest esolangs conceptually.
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02:03:31 <lmt> i agree with nooodl, learn befunge 93 instead
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02:03:52 <nooodl> scared off by Phantom__Hoover
02:04:05 <lmt> admittedly if he can't learn brainfuck what are the chances of him mastering befunge
02:04:35 <nooodl> brainfuck is easier to "get" but i think befunge is muuuch easier to get stuff done in
02:04:38 <AndroUser> Sorry, got kicked. What are we talking about? What was tbat YouTube link?
02:05:02 <lmt> which youtube link, this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRF28GvoL7M
02:08:54 <oerjan> AndroUser: it's internet cancer, says so in the comments.
02:09:32 <oerjan> also the other one was just a random Sgeo link. expect no relevance to current conversation.
02:10:05 <oerjan> (expect computer archeology, though)
02:11:38 <oerjan> couldn't watch much of it, although now i'm wondering what "pero" means in japanese.
02:13:51 <pikhq> Particularly in the psuedoonomatopoeietic form "peropero".
02:14:35 <oerjan> given the characters, for a brief moment i wondered if it was the japanese form of "pedobear"
02:15:43 <pikhq> Japanese "pedobear" is "kumaa", and has no real sexual connotations.
02:16:02 <pikhq> Just a funny drawing on 2chan is all.
02:16:36 <oerjan> ah so that was added by western perverts.
02:16:38 <pikhq> (it's from Japan, 4chan just added the weird "pedo" stuff to it memetically)
02:17:37 <oerjan> it all makes sense now, for the next few seconds.
02:18:20 <oerjan> ais523 should be here, he knows how to make stuff in brainfuck.
02:18:32 <pikhq> Oh, it's that video. Mori no Ando-san. Figured as much.
02:18:53 <pikhq> That there is a one-man student project.
02:21:13 <kmc> I heard a story in the elevator about a young startup that had hired actors to play pool in their office while they were interviewing people, in order to show off their "fun corporate culture"
02:21:17 <kmc> burn it all down, imo
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02:29:34 <Bike> and start again?
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02:35:47 <Bike> being paid to play a game sounds good though
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04:02:25 <kmc> oerjan: sure they do
04:02:29 <kmc> you just need a better oxidizer
04:07:12 <lmt> 19:21 <kmc> I heard a story in the elevator about a young startup that had hired actors to play pool in their office while they were interviewing people, in order to show off their "fun corporate culture"
04:07:16 <lmt> nuke mountain view
04:07:58 <shachaf> hired actors? why not have the employees do it
04:08:23 <shachaf> well, maybe the actors were employees
04:09:09 <kmc> i heard the story in sf
04:09:09 <pikhq> shachaf: The employees are software engineers.
04:09:17 <pikhq> Have you seen them having fun?
04:09:18 <kmc> I think the issue is that there were no employees, yet
04:09:21 <kmc> and they were trying to hire one
04:09:22 <pikhq> It scares off management.
04:11:53 <shachaf> pikhq: weren't you moving to mountain view or something
04:12:09 <pikhq> That seemed possible at one point.
04:12:24 <pikhq> I'm in Missouri actually.
04:13:04 <pikhq> And delightfully employed.
04:13:33 <pikhq> And delightfully not-living-in-mother's-basement.
04:14:08 <pikhq> My summer internship kinda sorta morphed into a fulltime job.
04:14:25 <Bike> congratulations?
04:15:21 <shachaf> Bike: so you never answered my question about naturality or whatever it was
04:15:46 <Bike> i said something dumb about hippie food because why do you ask me these questions
04:16:06 <shachaf> because you, like, know maths and stuff, right
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11:38:53 <augur> idris's new ! operator is a boon for perverse dependent type fans
11:43:56 <augur> quick tutorial in case you're curious:
11:44:33 <augur> M{!N} = do x <- N ; M{x}
11:45:34 <augur> eg [sqrt !xs] = do x <- xs ; [sqrt x]
11:46:19 <augur> the order is left to right scope, so M{!N,!P} = do x <- N ; y <- P ; M{x,y} provided !N is before !P in M
11:47:08 <augur> the height of the resulting scope is as high as possible. it looks for an appropriate monadic value as high in the syntax as it can, regardless of what other types are in the way
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11:49:01 <augur> someone please have some fun with function monads for me :D
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12:58:33 <fizzie> According to the local bicycling/walking route finder, you go across the street and into a building by using a ferry (fi: "lautta"): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131102-lautta.png
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15:01:03 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_(Unix) "Or, you can try below script, which performance is much better than one line solution previous." Very encyclopedic, that article.
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17:33:09 <nooodl> fizzie: "And it's slow due to some limitation." nice
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17:39:18 <fizzie> "/sys/firmware/efi/vars/CoolConsole-46fe2754-75ed-40db-a395-032d70994457" hmm. Well, I guess it's cool.
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18:13:55 <quintopia> i have now hiked 2174 miles of AT this year
18:15:04 <quintopia> appalachian trail havent we discussed this
18:16:58 <oerjan> i think my memory is allergic to appalachia, since i never can remember clearly where it is.
18:17:47 <oerjan> somewhere near the east coast, i think
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18:45:58 <Bike> http://www.businessinsider.com/sexiest-startup-ceos-2013-10 burn it down
18:50:58 <copumpkin> I mean, er, that's the list I use when I'm looking for a job
18:51:08 <mroman> Otherwise I'm not going to click that link .
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18:51:46 <copumpkin> you that afraid of catching the gay that you're afraid to even click on something that might call a dude sexy?
18:51:55 <mroman> No, that's why there's a space before the dot.
18:52:07 <copumpkin> it's a mix of both, and is shitty for other reasons
18:52:52 <mroman> That has nothing todo with being afraid
18:53:15 <copumpkin> does the space-before-the-period have a special meaning? I'm clearly clueless :(
18:53:46 <mroman> copumpkin: It's used to indicate that the statement is not meant seriously in german chats
18:54:57 <kmc> i hear the NSA has the technology to make people gay through the internet
18:55:30 <Bike> truth and gayness bombs
18:57:22 <mroman> businessinsider.com is down anyway
18:57:46 <mroman> or my connection to it
18:59:59 <Bike> well you're not missing anything.
19:01:13 * FireFly had to check twice to see if Bike's dot had a space preceding it.
19:02:08 <Bike> nope you're really not
19:02:42 <kmc> does a zerowidth space count
19:03:34 <copumpkin> I hear I can be a huge asshole if I put a space before my periods .
19:03:35 <mroman> I'm suprised that it's not a world wide common notation
19:04:07 <mroman> It's better than </irony>
19:04:40 <Bike> i'm surprised too⸮
19:05:19 <copumpkin> I try (but sometimes fail) to restrict my ironic asshole remarks to smaller groups that are okay with that kind of humor and know there's 0% chance that I'm actually okay with the behavior I'm mocking
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19:06:42 <mroman> If I were to implement a very fake high-level network card into my emulator
19:31:57 <kmc> it's weird to me that (per dominent social norms) straight guys are supposed to be turned off by the idea of a threesome with a girl and another guy
19:32:32 <kmc> sorry, I was just thinking about that this morning, and it's slightly related to previous topic
19:33:57 <Bike> too many dicks spoil the stew. ideal dick stew only needs about two dicks per five people being served. remember to cook them thoroughly, but not too thoroughly as that kills the flavor
19:37:30 <kmc> tomorrow on jerkcity
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19:47:12 <Sgeo> Shoe repair person called my shoe garbage and said I should throw it out
19:48:15 <Bike> your shoe garbage has a phone?
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19:53:07 <mroman> I've just read that as Shoe repear person called my (shoe garbage)
19:53:16 <mroman> like he phoned your shoe garbage
19:53:22 <Bike> wait it's not htat
19:53:37 <Bike> "The shoe repair person called my shoe 'garbage', and said that I should throw it out"
19:53:50 <Bike> i took like thirty seconds trying to understand what sgeo said
19:54:15 <Sgeo> Oh, I thought you understood but were trying to be humorous
19:55:25 <mroman> Why are you going to a shoe repair guy?
19:55:29 <mroman> are they that valuable?
19:55:42 <mroman> I imagine there aren't many shoe repair guys around anymore.
19:55:55 <mroman> and if they do, they're probably pretty expensive
19:56:04 <mroman> compared to just buying a new shoe.
19:56:41 <mroman> but I've never had a shoe repaired so.. I might be completely wrong.
19:57:01 <mroman> and no one ever phoned my shoes .
19:57:14 <Sgeo> I thought it would be more convenient than buying new shoes
19:57:19 <Sgeo> To get my current shoes repaired
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20:01:00 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112991589/brain-teaser-mathematician-carl-friedrich-gauss-110113/
20:01:21 <Bike> is redorbit a porn site
20:03:49 * Sgeo is reading Worm
20:04:23 <Bike> oh good, it wasn't just me who thought of young frankenstein
20:04:26 <Sgeo> http://parahumans.wordpress.com/table-of-contents/
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20:30:55 <kmc> i buy cheap sneakers and mostly they wouldn't be worth repairing but I've had success in a few cases
20:31:38 <kmc> you can buy replacement insoles at any drugstore and they're usually more comfortable too
20:32:01 <kmc> also one time the bottom bit of rubber started coming off and I fixed it with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_Goo
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20:40:46 * njm imposes into ion
20:41:16 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, so the inverse of the vimes theory of economic unfairness
20:41:26 <ion> njm: Are you the licker?
20:49:16 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: hm?
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20:53:47 <Sgeo> kmc: A character in Discworld
20:53:58 <Bike> the one where poor people can only afford cheap boots that don't last
20:54:06 <Bike> so they have to keep buying them
20:54:17 <Sgeo> Expresses the idea that people with less money buy cheaper things, but they wear out soon, soon, so they end up spending more
20:55:47 <kmc> it's true that being poor is expensive
20:55:51 <kmc> for lots of reasons, not just that one
20:56:00 <FreeFull> And then can never save up the money to buy the things that last longer
20:56:33 <FreeFull> I think banks tend to screw over poor people
20:57:18 <FreeFull> Any kind of unexpected bill is a huge setback
20:58:06 <kmc> most Americans don't have the cash on hand to deal with a $1000 emergency expense
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20:59:08 <kmc> the rich can eat very cheaply because we have free time to cook, free time to shop for the best prices, access to a good kitchen, spare cash to buy ingredients in bulk
20:59:57 <kmc> that's a big one I think
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21:04:57 <kmc> people argue a lot on whether it's possible to eat for $x/day but they often ignore this aspect of it
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21:17:47 <mroman> Breakfast 3 CHF. Lunch 13 CHF. Dinner: 11 CHF.
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21:19:34 <mroman> for one person of course
21:19:50 <kmc> that's a huge amount of money
21:20:21 <mroman> and 13 CHF is a really cheap restaurant :)
21:20:38 <kmc> i hear that .ch is expensive as fuck
21:22:13 <kmc> another interesting fact is that the more liberal states in the US have higher minimum wage, but this is more than eaten up by cost of living
21:22:50 <fizzie> I think our monthly food expenses (for two) hover somewhere around 300 EUR -- well, food and some assorted grocery store stuff, anyway -- but that's not counting the lunch at work, which is about 5.5 EUR/day/person.
21:22:56 <kmc> so if you earn minimum wage you have to work more hours per week in California or New York or Massachusetts than in the middle of nowhere conservative places
21:23:05 <mroman> 2.80 Dollar for a regular cheesburger
21:23:16 <mroman> if you allow me to compare burger prices :)
21:23:29 <kmc> http://www.economist.com/content/big-mac-index
21:24:22 <kmc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Mac_Index#Manipulation
21:24:38 <kmc> "Guillermo Moreno, Secretary of Commerce in the Kirchner government, reportedly forced McDonald's to sell the Big Mac at an artificially low price to manipulate the country's performance on the Big Mac index"
21:24:41 <mroman> what's the us average monthly income?
21:24:54 <kmc> median is probably more useful than average
21:26:14 <mroman> If I'd take the lousiest job I would still do
21:26:22 <mroman> I'd get 4500 Dollars a month
21:27:23 <kmc> the median household income in the US is like $4400 / mo
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21:27:39 <kmc> I'm not sure what comparison you're making so I don't know if individual or household income is more relevant
21:28:04 <mroman> household would include both husband and wife?
21:28:18 <kmc> in households which have a husband and a wife, yes
21:28:49 <mroman> 2700 is apparentely the median salary
21:29:05 <mroman> standardized to 180 hours/month
21:29:30 <mroman> 45 hour week sounds long :)
21:29:37 <kmc> there are more than 4 weeks in a month
21:29:45 <kmc> > 2700 * 12 / 52
21:29:58 <kmc> > 180 * 12 / 52
21:30:11 <mroman> that sounds more like a regular work wee
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21:31:02 <mroman> Comparisions are so hard
21:31:06 <mroman> Even if you standardize them
21:31:21 <mroman> It's true that in some poor country you can live on a few dollars
21:31:29 <mroman> and buy food for which I pay ten times as much
21:32:01 <mroman> even if I pay more than them (measured relative to salary)
21:32:06 <mroman> they still live much poorer than me
21:33:21 <mroman> Some people think that it somehow "evens out"
21:33:33 <mroman> Maybe I pay 1/4 just for rent
21:33:42 <kmc> how much is your rent
21:33:44 <mroman> where others pay maybe 1/8 just for rent
21:33:48 <kmc> also where do you live?
21:34:04 <mroman> but that does not take into account, that my house/appartment is way better than theirs :)
21:34:15 <mroman> kmc: that was supposed to be an example
21:34:20 <mroman> I don't actually pay rent yet
21:34:33 <mroman> I know how much I would have to pay :)
21:34:48 <mroman> for a regular appartment it's about 700 CHF
21:34:57 <mroman> i.e student appartment
21:35:16 <mroman> so that's around 780 dollars a month
21:35:54 <kmc> in a big city?
21:36:53 <fizzie> The 45-square-metre apartment right next door from us was just rented to someone new for 850 EUR/month.
21:36:54 <mroman> zurich is probably more expensive
21:37:04 <mroman> it's a smaller city next to zurich
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21:37:27 <mroman> Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,400.00 Fr.
21:38:09 <mroman> Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 1,100.00 Fr.
21:38:31 <mroman> student appartments are obviously less expensive ;)
21:38:51 <Koen_> you can buy an appartment for 1,400.00 Fr. ??????? where do you live?
21:39:27 <mroman> buying is about 8000 CHF per square meter
21:39:33 <mroman> according to this website
21:39:41 <Koen_> that sounds more reasonable
21:39:58 <mroman> All I can say from my own experience is that student appartments usually range from about 600 to 900 CHF
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21:42:01 <mroman> Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant 20.00 Fr
21:42:16 <mroman> there definetyl are cheaper restaurants :)
21:42:23 <Koen_> are Fr. and CHF the same thing?
21:42:39 <mroman> chinese restaurants are usually more like 12 CHF :)
21:43:50 <mroman> Koen_: CHF is the international abbreviation
21:44:04 <mroman> and Fr. or SFr. is what you use as someone living here
21:44:59 <kmc> Confoederatio Helvetica
21:45:14 <mroman> I hardly beleive one could live in switzerland with 1$ a day
21:45:28 <pikhq> CONFOEDERATIO HELVETICA methinks
21:45:35 <mroman> 1$ is already pretty close to what you pay to use public toilets
21:46:00 <Bike> i thought paying for toilets was something that only happened at gas stations and Rollercoaster Tycoon.
21:46:21 <pikhq> Free toilets are mostly a thing in the US.
21:46:29 <kmc> pay toilets are banned in much of the US or something, and so there just aren't enough public toilets :/
21:46:37 <mroman> Bike: there are mostly two kinds of toilets
21:46:39 <kmc> SF has some free ones, though
21:46:40 <Koen_> you US people are all communists pikhq!
21:46:51 <mroman> you can pee for free using the "pissoir"
21:46:52 <pikhq> Thanks to the Committee to End Pay Toilets in America.
21:46:58 <mroman> or you have to pay for either
21:47:25 <Bike> i can pee for free with a brick wall thank you very much
21:47:44 <Bike> well i can pee on the cop too. it works out.
21:48:00 <mroman> but then you can't live for 1$ a day :)
21:48:11 <Bike> i dunno, how much does jail cost
21:48:25 <Bike> problem solved.
21:48:39 <mroman> unless there is a fine
21:48:48 <mroman> but there's no "get free on caution"
21:49:12 <mroman> that's bail in english
21:49:12 <kmc> in amsterdam i saw a clever thing which is like a single large piece of plastic shaped into four urinals
21:50:10 <mroman> for some things you can choose although
21:50:15 <mroman> either pay the fine or go to jail
21:50:22 <mroman> obviously they want you to pay the fine
21:50:31 <mroman> because jail would be cheaper for you than paying the fine
21:50:40 <mroman> so less money for them
21:51:52 <mroman> and I'm pretty certain the regular jail in switzerland is pretty neat
21:52:07 <mroman> compared to us jails in television
21:52:43 <mroman> where you get beaten up twice a day
21:59:39 <mroman> I thought jail was just slang for prison
22:00:46 <doesthiswork> http://www.diffen.com/difference/Jail_vs_Prison
22:03:09 <mroman> puh. I hope my laptop can survive two more weeks
22:03:15 <mroman> until my new one arrives.
22:03:51 <mroman> I'd be pretty screwed if it didn't.
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22:08:37 <mroman> No I know why people tend to write
22:08:47 <mroman> instead of int main ( ...)
22:09:01 <mroman> it produces more lines of code .
22:09:54 <mroman> you can even stretch that to
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22:10:59 <mroman> I've seen code like that
22:11:03 <FireFly> mroman: I think the serious reason for "type\n name(...)" is that it allows for easier grepping of the function definition
22:11:47 <mroman> because you would grep for "\n name"?
22:12:01 <mroman> so it doesn't report calls to that function?
22:12:02 <kmc> one thing I like about Rust syntax is that you can find the definition of foo by grepping for 'fn foo'
22:12:16 <mroman> That's actually not a bad idea
22:12:32 <mroman> I usually grep for name(type
22:12:42 <mroman> If I can remember the first type of the function
22:12:51 <mroman> (the type of the first argument)
22:12:59 <FireFly> ...that wouldn't work in codebases using K&R-C function declaration, though
22:13:03 * kmc realizes just now that C function declaration syntax is another example of declaration-follows-use
22:13:11 <FireFly> (which vim's code base does, btw)
22:13:37 <mroman> you mean the prototype?
22:13:39 <FireFly> Because apparently it compiles on some platforms that don't have any ANSI C compiler
22:13:59 <FireFly> I mean int foo(x,y) { int x; int y }; { ... }
22:14:10 <doesthiswork> wouldn't the textually first result either be the prototype or the function definition? and if it's the prototype you now know the return type
22:14:13 <fizzie> FireFly: foo(x, y) int x, y; { ... }
22:14:14 <Bike> what's declaration-folllows-use
22:14:32 <kmc> Bike: a principle of C syntax
22:14:34 <mroman> Is that allowed in c89?
22:14:35 <fizzie> FireFly: Implicit int goes "well" with K&R declarations.
22:14:41 <fizzie> mroman: It's even allowed in C11.
22:14:48 <olsner> Bike: it's that thing where declaration follows use
22:14:50 <kmc> you write "int *p" to declare that *p is an int
22:14:50 <fizzie> mroman: (Though there's a note about it being obsolete.)
22:15:20 <kmc> or "int f(x)" to declare that f(x) is an int
22:15:48 <FireFly> I've kinda grown to like int *p :|
22:15:50 <mroman> int *p looks like it's not a pointer
22:16:00 <fizzie> mroman: "int* p, q" and so on.
22:16:07 <olsner> either int* p or int *p is fine, but "int * p" is clearly wrong
22:16:23 <mroman> olsner: morally wrong?
22:16:38 <Bike> doctrinally wrong
22:16:51 <Bike> kentuckily wrong
22:16:56 <fizzie> "The use of function definitions with separate parameter identifier and declaration lists (not prototype-format parameter type and identifier declarators) is an obsolescent feature." (C11 "future language directions". So maybe it'll be finally dropped in, say, C43 or thereabouts.)
22:17:23 <mroman> I'm gonna use char * * argv from now on
22:17:36 <fizzie> "char * foo", the product of 'char' and 'foo'.
22:18:07 <mroman> char* *argv sounds like a reasonable compromise between int* p and int *p
22:18:29 <fizzie> char**argv -- if you don't have whitespace, you don't have to worry about whitespace placement.
22:18:31 <kmc> it's not a *good* syntactic principle but it has a certain consistency to it
22:18:42 <olsner> hmm, char* *argv does make some sense though, reads as a pointer to char*
22:18:51 <kmc> btw, is there a good reason to prefer one of char **argv or char *argv[]?
22:19:23 <fizzie> There's some argument to be made for the general badness of the array-that's-really-a-pointer syntax of parameter declarations.
22:19:30 <fizzie> You could extend a preference for char ** from there.
22:22:01 <mroman> I'm lucky the language I recently invented is relatively typeless
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22:25:43 <kmc> the rust type syntax has some weird corners
22:25:55 <kmc> you can put trait bounds on the free variables of a closure, for example
22:27:39 <mroman> types take away my freedom :)
22:28:28 <mroman> compilers keep telling me "but that's undefined behaviour?" and I just want to say "well.. screw you. I know my hardware better than you"
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22:29:01 <Bike> freeom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want, freedom from types
22:29:23 <kmc> that's not how undefined behavior works
22:29:33 <kmc> and no, you don't ;)
22:30:28 <doesthiswork> take any language and add types, and it becomes at least twice as esoteric
22:30:45 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/va/rlmmu_simple.html <- now it looks like that
22:31:07 <Bike> i'm considering writing assembly for something i wrote the other day, but that's so annoying. the question is whether dozens of movs are more annoying
22:32:23 <Bike> "this is just bit bashing", i think, naively
22:36:57 <fizzie> Fiora: Highlight on "bit"?
22:37:26 <nooodl> that sounds like it'd be a bit annoying
22:37:31 <nooodl> i bet it's on "assembly"!
22:38:08 <olsner> or maybe just manually watching the channel waiting for someone to say something interesting
22:38:15 <Fiora> I... didn't have a highlight I just um happened to look in at the right time
22:39:18 <Bike> the loop is like... (m & p[t[c]]) << 1 for increasing c
22:39:45 <Fiora> Bike: maybe like, pastebin it?
22:40:45 <Bike> well i guess a disassembly of a closure function is appropriately esoteric.
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22:46:51 <nooodl> i dunno anything about assembly but that sounds like any compiler'd be good at it
22:47:24 <mroman> mine would use 1k of stack for m & p[t[c]] << 1
22:47:49 <Fiora> Bike: like, what does the code do with each bit?
22:47:51 <Bike> http://pastebin.com/V6A4Bqdg fear
22:48:17 <fizzie> "Pastebin.com is under heavy load right now :("
22:48:31 <fizzie> On the third hand, well, a cat.
22:48:48 <kmc> on the gripping hand
22:48:55 <Bike> wait how many hands do you have exactly??
22:49:02 <fizzie> fungot: How many hands did I have again?
22:49:02 <fungot> fizzie: i though i heard it made one that strong yet?
22:49:14 <fizzie> fungot: So one strong hand and...?
22:49:15 <fungot> fizzie: ( but seriously, how is call/ cc
22:49:26 <Bike> one strong hand and one time travel hand
22:49:37 <nooodl> how IS call/cc. haven't heard from it in a while
22:50:05 <Fiora> Bike: is there, like, um, a C equivalent or something ?@_@
22:51:36 <Bike> does C << just discard any bits that fall off?
22:51:52 <fizzie> Bike: If it's an unsigned variable, yes.
22:53:35 <olsner> if it's signed I believe the behavior is undefined
22:54:03 <fizzie> If it's signed, then << K is defined if the value -- let's call it X -- is initially nonnegative, and if X*2^K is representable in the result type.
22:54:03 <Bike> for (i = 0; i < text_len; ++i) { partial_matches = (partial_matches & pattern[text[c]]) << 1; result[c] = partial_matches & (1 << pattern_len); } or something like that. except result should be a bit vector and that shoul set a bit based on the truth value i'm bad at c
22:54:16 <fizzie> (Which won't be the case if any bits were to fall off.)
22:54:20 <Bike> for (c = 0 ...) wow go me
22:55:39 <Fiora> what is partial_matches and what is pattern[]? are they like, both bit vectors?
22:55:50 <Fiora> erm, is partial_matches a boolean, I mean?
22:56:11 <fizzie> Based on that other expression, probably not.
22:56:13 <Bike> partial_matches is a bit vector, pattern is a vector of bit vectors.
22:56:29 <Fiora> a vector of bit vectors, okay
22:56:34 <Fiora> and um I guess they both fit in 32-bit or something?
22:57:46 <Fiora> so pattern[text[c]] is the pattern with a certain... character, I guess?
22:57:55 <nooodl> do you mean something like, result |= partial_matches & (1 << pattern_len);
22:58:59 <Bike> Fiora: yeah, pattern is indexed by a character.
22:59:13 <Bike> or was that a pun if so: nice on making it obvious it was a pun but not obvious what the joke is
22:59:25 <Fiora> oh no, it wasn't a pun?
23:00:00 <Bike> i might as well just explain the algorithm.
23:00:24 <Bike> so, you have a "pattern" that you want to search for in a "text". they're both just strings.
23:01:17 <Bike> to prepare for search with a given pattern, first you pick an alphabet, which is just a mapping from characters to nonnegative integers. (obviously this is a bit redundant in C, but if you're searching with DNA sequences or something you can save memory by shrinking the alphabet)
23:01:57 <Bike> then you encode the pattern as a vector of bit vectors. for each character there's a bit vector where each element is 1 if that's the character at that position in the pattern.
23:02:45 <Bike> like if your alphabet is just 0 and 1, and you're searching for "010101", pattern would look like {{101010},{010101}}
23:03:14 <Bike> well that's the relevant part of the algorithm, anyway.
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23:09:28 <Bike> oh i mixed up a bit. partial_matches starts as 1 and the lsb should always stay set, so that goes in the loop too.
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23:10:47 <Bike> can you do shifts with a fill bit on x86?
23:16:29 <pikhq> Fiora: C equivalent of call/cc? Sure!
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23:39:55 <kmc> http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2012/02/continuations-in-c-with-fork.html
23:41:16 <fizzie> Bike: You can rotate through carry, which is kind of slightly like that.
23:42:08 <fizzie> Bike: One end of the thing you're rotating drops off and into the carry flag, while the old carry flags goes to live on as the "shifted-in" bit.
23:42:47 <Bike> so it'd be another instruction, then. might as well just OR with 1
23:43:09 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you mean by "another instruction" there.
23:43:21 <Bike> well i'd have to set the carry.
23:43:29 <Bike> every loop i mean.
23:43:44 <fizzie> Well, yes. There's no static "shift in ones" instruction, no.
23:44:30 <fizzie> Fun fact: there's an undocumented "shift left but insert 1" instruction on the Z80.
23:44:40 <kmc> hi shachaf
23:45:10 <Bike> clearly my digitial design class was useless, sigh
23:45:34 <Bike> anyway that's good news, i'll redo this to run on soviet knockoffs
23:45:51 <fizzie> (It's in the gap where there should be a "logical left shift", if you look at the opcode encodings; at one corner of the imaginary square formed by arithmetic shift left, arithmetic shift right and logical shift right.)
23:46:06 <coppro> http://anotherlook.ca/
23:46:15 <coppro> click 'another look at security definitions'
23:46:29 <shachaf> I decided not to go to the thing I was going to.
23:47:35 <Bike> Speaking Of Security, it was just revealed that news of the world illegally hacked their way to access to a voicemail left by prince harry. stuff's gettin good
23:48:20 <shachaf> so now I'm in dolores park what should i do "help"
23:48:57 <coppro> Bike: so they've definitely gone from 'unethical' to 'illegal'?
23:49:25 <kmc> i think that happened some time ago
23:49:32 <Bike> well, that's me paraphrasing, but the cases look pretty solid
23:50:21 <Bike> i'm just hoping this somehow ends with murdoch getting punched in the face.
23:50:26 <fizzie> People switch to dechaf to be less jittery, AIUI.
23:50:37 <coppro> Bike: that would be the best resolution imo
23:50:51 <shachaf> already chillaxing and also watching dogs they are cute
23:51:41 <shachaf> should i go see _Carrie (musical)_ "last day for it"
23:52:21 <olsner> fungot: do you like Carrie (musical)?
23:52:21 <fungot> olsner: " hello world" 200 times ( run the fnord! :p.
23:52:26 <Bike> only if it's billed as such