←2013-11-07 2013-11-08 2013-11-09→ ↑2013 ↑all
00:00:18 <oerjan> i cannot quite be bothered to check whether there were any in that quote, though.
00:01:03 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what ørjan is pondering?
00:01:03 <lambdabot> It must be inordinately taxing to be such a boob.
00:01:13 <shachaf> sigh, it must be the ø
00:01:16 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what oerjan is pondering?
00:01:16 <lambdabot> What can I do for fun, Pinky? That's it! I'll send several
00:01:16 <lambdabot> bills to Senate for ratification, then veto them all!
00:01:25 * oerjan swats lambdabot -----###
00:01:27 <shachaf> @brain did someone break @brain?
00:01:27 <lambdabot> Are you pondering what I'm pondering?
00:01:35 <shachaf> @brain where are the pinky quotes?
00:01:35 <lambdabot> Promise me something, Pinky. Never breed.
00:01:40 <shachaf> @pinky
00:01:40 <lambdabot> Well, I think so, but Kevin Costner with an English accent?
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00:01:46 <shachaf> ...Ah.
00:01:49 <shachaf> @list brain
00:01:49 <lambdabot> quote provides: quote remember forget ghc fortune yow arr yarr keal b52s pinky brain palomer girl19 v yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw protontorpedo nixon farber
00:01:54 <oerjan> shachaf: um does it actually pay any attention to the part after @brain
00:02:02 <shachaf> oerjan: Not that I know of.
00:02:09 <shachaf> Who split up Pinky and the Brain?
00:03:38 <oerjan> @tell gregor You should fix the formatted log style not to squeeze consecutive spaces. for quote accuracy, you see.
00:03:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
00:05:31 <oerjan> shachaf: the separatists
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00:09:05 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm a separatist myself but i haven't heard of that
00:09:10 <shachaf> it must be a different faction
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00:13:29 <oerjan> <kmc> this reminds me a bit of the first graf on http://www.mit.edu/~mitsfs/related-groups.html <-- which graf, and also why didn't they add another I for the nice anagram.
00:14:46 <shachaf> nice anagram?
00:15:31 <oerjan> of mitsfs + i
00:16:11 <oerjan> preferably second last
00:16:18 <lexande> because they fit in just fine at MIT
00:16:42 <oerjan> how weird.
00:18:28 <oerjan> my old alma mater wasn't the only one to dodge a bullet here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUST
00:23:50 <kmc> but people pronounce it "mits fiss" or so
00:23:56 <kmc> so I don't think the connection is un-noticed
00:24:10 <oerjan> <kmc> that's like http://www.reddit.com/r/MarijuanaEnthusiasts <-- XD
00:24:31 <oerjan> talk about inside joke
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00:27:20 <augur_> beep
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00:28:56 <oerjan> boop
00:29:03 <augur_> does anyone know of any contests or challenges where a particular language has its syntax "funged" so as to be unrecognizable, with the task of recovering the language by poking at programs?
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01:09:30 <kmc> beep boop
01:09:52 <kmc> another awesomely named MIT club is MITBEEF
01:09:54 <kmc> the beef club
01:10:12 <shachaf> beep boop
01:10:17 <kmc> they got passes to some huge meat convention that was going on in boston
01:10:19 <kmc> pretty sweet
01:10:31 <kmc> we had a Meat Club which was slightly less focused (I think they served snail at one point)
01:10:42 <kmc> Caltech also had a Hazing Club
01:10:44 <kmc> opt-in of course
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01:16:54 <shachaf> kmc: http://www.theonion.com/articles/freedom-takes-a-hit,33699/
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01:22:10 <kmc> heh
01:22:17 <kmc> i wonder if the kmc #drugz thing is getting old
01:22:21 <kmc> not sure
01:22:26 <kmc> and i have done nothing but encourage it so far
01:23:54 <augur> kmc: what should i look for!
01:24:22 <augur> re: "does anyone know of any contests or challenges where a particular language has its syntax "funged" so as to be unrecognizable, with the task of recovering the language by poking at programs?"
01:24:33 <lexande> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beefsteak_Club The Sublime Society of Beef Steaks
01:24:42 <lexande> BEEF AND LIBERTY
01:27:35 <kmc> lexande: nice
01:28:05 <kmc> augur: uh, one of the io.smashthestack.org challenges involves reverse engineering a compiled, obfuscated binary of an interpreter for a stack machine
01:28:12 <kmc> in order to then write programs for that machine
01:28:24 <kmc> that doesn't quite sound like what you mean though
01:28:35 <augur> kmc: do you know of any methodologies for such reverse engineering tasks?
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01:30:59 <kmc> i don't know much about the general practice of RE, no
01:31:20 <kmc> i mean "look at the code and figure out what it does"
01:31:23 <kmc> not very satisfying
01:31:52 <kmc> there are tools that will find basic blocks, build control flow graphs, express them as pseudo-C, let you assign names to variables as you figure them out, etc
01:32:22 <kmc> https://hex-rays.com/products/ida/index.shtml is the gold standard of RE tools; http://www.hopperapp.com/ is getting a lot of good press lately
01:32:37 <kmc> http://radare.org also looks quite cool
01:32:41 <kmc> i haven't used any of them
01:33:00 <augur> those things usually depend on knowledge of the code structure tho
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01:33:06 <kmc> oh i did use the freeware version of IDA for DOS to reverse engineer a late 20th century French-Canadian apothecary sign
01:33:16 <kmc> but the code was not obfuscated at all
01:33:26 <augur> imagine instead if you found a language where all the tokens were permuted with random things
01:33:47 <augur> so that it looked like line noise
01:34:01 <augur> how would you figure out what a program in such a language did?
01:34:28 <kmc> that's kind of a cryptanalysis problem
01:34:36 <augur> not quite
01:34:57 <augur> cryptanalysis doesnt let you probe the program however you want
01:35:18 <augur> you get a blackbox compiler/interpreter, and some example programs
01:35:47 <augur> infact, as many example programs as you want, lets say a billion just for fun
01:36:12 <augur> and you can run them, or maybe search through them by the effects they have, described broadly
01:36:25 <augur> and you can edit and run programs too
01:36:38 <augur> how would you figure out what was going on?
01:37:27 <Bike> pretty much been my experience with matlab
01:37:32 <augur> :)
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01:38:03 <Bike> it's been fascinating how much good i can do for a program i don't understand a damned thing about
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01:52:51 <kmc> haha bike
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02:22:19 <Sgeo> Would it be odd to go to StackOverflow to ask a question then answer it immediately?
02:22:38 <Sgeo> Couldn't find the answer to a question I had about IE, determined the answer experimentally
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02:38:15 <Taneb> aaaah oh god I'm going to be playing D&D
02:39:18 <kmc> don't give in to satan
02:39:53 <pikhq> Oh, he won't.
02:40:01 <pikhq> Helel on the other hand?
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02:49:14 <prooftechnique> Sgeo: Please do that
02:49:20 <prooftechnique> It's totally kosher
02:51:06 <trout> prooftechnique: context?
02:51:11 <trout> Taneb: ++
02:51:19 <prooftechnique> [21:22:19] Sgeo: Would it be odd to go to StackOverflow to ask a question then answer it immediately?
02:51:20 <prooftechnique> [21:22:38] Sgeo: Couldn't find the answer to a question I had about IE, determined the answer experimentally
02:51:28 <trout> oh yeah, its totally fine
02:51:31 <trout> they even encourage it
02:54:34 <Taneb> I'm... going to be playing D&D with a pacifist character
02:55:17 <kmc> if you beat the first mission of Deus Ex without killing anyone you get an achievement but also your fellow cybernetically enhanced super-soldiers will make fun of you for being a wuss
02:58:51 <prooftechnique> You'll also be woefully ill-equipped for the outsourced boss fights
02:59:36 <prooftechnique> Taneb: Tell them to use the Book of Exalted Deeds rules
03:09:58 <Taneb> Also, today I found out that vegans can eat bread
03:10:18 <quintopia> Taneb: why wouldn't they?
03:10:37 <Taneb> quintopia, I was getting the recipe mixed up with cake
03:10:45 <Taneb> I thought bread had milk and eggs
03:11:04 <quintopia> weirdo
03:15:16 <oerjan> i think zzo38 plays his character with minimal violence, i am not sure if he's entirely pacifist or not.
03:21:07 <quintopia> whoa who is Oj742.
03:24:27 <kmc> some bread has eggs i think
03:24:29 <kmc> and some cake doesn't
03:24:50 <kmc> vegans can eat fungi even though they're closer to animals than to plants
03:25:20 <kmc> which is good because bread is mostly made using fungi
03:26:28 <kmc> except for salt rising bread, which is made using a bacterium from the same genus as tetanus and gas gangrene and botulism
03:26:44 <kmc> #terrifyingbreadfacts
03:28:08 <prooftechnique> Sounds delicious
03:29:07 <quintopia> what about bread using baking soda leavening
03:29:24 <quintopia> and what about flatbread
03:33:32 <kmc> flatbread, fair enough
03:33:38 <kmc> can you bake bread with only baking soda and no yeast?
03:33:45 <kmc> i thought it was used as an additional component
03:33:46 <kmc> but I dunn
03:33:47 <kmc> o
03:33:49 <kmc> I'm no baker
03:34:03 <prooftechnique> Lightbeam is pretty cool
03:34:20 <kmc> yeah
03:34:35 <oerjan> flatbread is not vegetarian. it is made from flatfish flour (nn:kveitemjøl, from nn:kveite, halibut)
03:36:44 <quintopia> mmm
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04:07:56 <quintopia> !bfjoust space_hotel http://sprunge.us/aNPE
04:08:08 <EgoBot> ​Score for quintopia_space_hotel: 51.9
04:08:33 <quintopia> SLIGHT IMPROVEMENT
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04:34:51 <Sgeo> So, there are now two questions that I really should get around to asking and answering on SO
04:48:51 <quintopia> when i'm on my SO, i'm not usually thinking about asking and answering questions
04:49:42 <coppro> ^
04:50:24 <oklopol> passwo
04:50:31 <oklopol> lo
04:50:32 <oklopol> l
04:50:52 <quintopia> oklolplol
04:50:53 <oklopol> (was trying to see if someone linked the password file i've been hearing so much about here)
04:51:04 <Bike> i did a while ago
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04:51:29 <oklopol> (but ctrl+f often just pops up the find box but doesn't make it focused)
04:51:29 <quintopia> Bike: the one that's like the world's greatest crossword puzzle according to xkcd?
04:51:36 <Bike> yeah.
04:52:45 <oklopol> Bike: you showed some top100 thing?
04:53:00 <Bike> probably
04:54:21 <oklopol> "30. 28132 Ttgs5+ZAZM7ioxG6CatHBw== princess"
04:54:37 <oklopol> how
04:54:45 <Bike> what/
04:55:00 <Bike> that was a question mark
04:55:15 <oklopol> i don't understand how random words get on these lists
04:55:48 <Bike> maybe i just want the password recovery thing to call me a princess. since no one ELSE does
05:01:16 <oklopol> i have a friend who does some sort of computer security research and uses a short unary password almost everywhere, and happily tells people what it is
05:01:41 <oklopol> 8. 113884 7LqYzKVeq8I= 111111
05:04:12 <oerjan> so is it research in how to be secure even if everyone knows your password?
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05:07:14 <myname> maybe he should've used 666666
05:08:12 <quintopia> i'ma get a lightbeam. dunno what to expect from it...i don't browse much
05:17:30 <oklopol> "<Bike> papers on arxiv have links and cites highlighted in different colors a lot" <<< this will not surprise anyone, but anyway: this is because you send the tex and they compile it that way
05:19:31 <oklopol> (as opposed to there being an arxiv style that has that which you can use, say)
05:20:07 <oklopol> come to think of it, i guess they could just add those to pdfs too
05:20:43 <oklopol> if you send them a pdf that's generated from tex source, they notice it and tell you to submit the tex instead
05:29:21 <Bike> haha, of course
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06:14:06 <kmc> "@windyoona @0xabad1dea fun story: Lego bricks form a free trace monoid just like the one from process calculus! They model parallelism!"
06:14:12 <kmc> hmmmmmm
06:15:29 <Bike> not the other way around?
06:16:31 * kmc reads about trace monoids
06:17:07 <Bike> i mean generally if it's a math thing versus something that actually happens i'm going to guess it's the former that's the "model"
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06:21:55 <shachaf> did someone say trace monoids
06:21:59 <shachaf> i love monoids
06:24:47 <kmc> i did
06:25:02 <kmc> btw both of the mentioned people are great and you should follow them if you do the twitter thing
06:25:25 <shachaf> i don't do the twitter thing but i have a file of people i would follow if i did follow people
06:25:31 <shachaf> so i'll add them to the file
06:25:58 <kmc> v. effective
06:26:19 <shachaf> my file now contains 43 people
06:26:37 <shachaf> way too many to open tabs for each one every day and look at what's new
06:27:03 <shachaf> maybe i can set up an rss client to fetch each of their feeds
06:27:25 <shachaf> kmc: you should teach me about trace monoids
06:27:30 <shachaf> what's this "natural homomorphism" business
06:29:58 <kmc> i don't know about them :(
06:30:47 <shachaf> :'(
06:30:48 <shachaf> hmm
06:35:35 <kmc> wikipedia does tho
06:38:27 <shachaf> i'm not sure what wikipedia means but maybe i'll read the whole article
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06:51:07 <shachaf> kmc: why is it called "trace"
06:54:29 <kmc> i don't know
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07:33:54 <kmc> OH in my living room: "So I don't think RMS can be snorting mountains of cocaine"
07:34:49 <kmc> what means "koirammekokaan"
07:34:52 <kmc> dog something
07:35:21 <olsner> dog (irthative case)
07:35:35 <kmc> that's a made up case
07:35:38 <kmc> you just made up that case
07:35:52 <olsner> I did not! someone else did, long ago
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07:42:42 <oerjan> olsner: there are only two google hits for "irthative" and one is Phantom_Hoover on this channel. so yeah.
07:43:14 <oerjan> the other is a seriously misspelled "affirmative".
07:43:43 <oerjan> well i assume that's it, anyhow.
07:44:27 <oerjan> no wait, the first person to use it is you.
07:44:45 <oerjan> olsner: i conclude that you made it up, long ago.
07:44:47 <olsner> huh?
07:45:40 <oerjan> hm wait there's some development into it.
07:45:51 <oerjan> 06:05:06 <Taneb> What's that word that means "is not bad anymore"?
07:45:52 <oerjan> 06:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> irthen bad?
07:45:53 <oerjan> 06:05:06 <Taneb> What's that word that means "is not bad anymore"?
07:45:54 <oerjan> 06:05:51 <Phantom_Hoover> irthen bad?
07:45:54 <shachaf> kmc: i decline to answer
07:45:57 <oerjan> gah
07:48:41 <shachaf> kmc: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-mme https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-ko https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-kaan hth
07:48:58 <fizzie> Aw, I was just about to decompose it.
07:49:51 <kmc> so... translate plz
07:50:11 <oerjan> i tried to but gt couldn't make sense of the -kaan
07:50:15 <shachaf> yo fizzie, i'mma let you finnish, but wiktionary is one of the best decomposers of all time
07:50:25 <kmc> koiramme = our dog?
07:50:27 <fizzie> It is indeed dog | our | make-into-a-question | even.
07:50:41 <kmc> huh
07:51:03 <fizzie> It's also kind of awkward-sounding.
07:51:35 <fizzie> But it could be used in a sentence. "Pystyisiköhän koirammekokaan siihen?" "Could even our dog do it?"
07:51:57 <shachaf> fizzie: i should learn finnish :'(
07:52:14 <fizzie> In the sense of "even" meaning that it's very difficult, but maybe the dog could manage it.
07:52:25 <fizzie> (And not the sense that anyone, even a trained monkey could do it.)
07:52:51 <shachaf> Maybe "Could our dog even do it?"?
07:53:01 <fizzie> Maybe. I should learn English.
07:53:16 <kmc> are you planning to go to england
07:53:48 <fizzie> Though somehow "could our dog even do it" sounds to me like it's not necessarily a difficult thing, just that you're a bit sceptical about the dog.
07:53:49 <oerjan> so the thing in the topic means "Don't even our dogs fly?"
07:54:01 <fizzie> Oh, it's in the topic.
07:54:34 <fizzie> oerjan: Single dog. But something like that, yes.
07:54:37 <shachaf> oh, that's where kmc got the word from
07:55:02 <fizzie> oerjan: It's kind of like you have lots of things and none of them are capable of flying, not even the dog.
07:55:03 <shachaf> fizzie: ensin sinä, sitten minä
07:55:12 <oerjan> huh gt thinks koiramme is plural
07:55:14 <shachaf> is that even grammatical finnish
07:55:31 <shachaf> oerjan: What's gt?
07:55:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Sadly, I think it's both.
07:56:28 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought the pluralization was of us, not of the dog.
07:56:43 <fizzie> oerjan: As in, there's no difference between the singular and plural in that case. But the verb would be inflected differently for plural.
07:57:28 <oerjan> fizzie: eek.
07:57:33 <oerjan> shachaf: google translate
07:57:38 <shachaf> Oh.
07:57:45 <fizzie> "kaikki koiramme" all our dogs, "paras koiramme" our best dog, yeah, there's no change for the plural when it's first-person-plural-possessive.
07:57:51 <oerjan> shachaf: well gt translates it as "our dogs"
07:57:57 <shachaf> Ah.
07:58:12 <fizzie> oerjan: It would be "koirammekokaan eivät lennä?" if they had several dogs, none of which flew.
07:58:37 <oerjan> actually it makes it singular if i remove that kokaan
07:58:50 <oerjan> and keeps the rest of the sentence
07:59:13 <shachaf> dekokaanization is a popular activity among finnish grammaticians
07:59:34 <fizzie> "Koirakokaan ei lennä?" seems to be translated more or less correctly.
07:59:34 <oerjan> fizzie: and here i thought finnish had a plural suffix.
08:00:17 <fizzie> oerjan: It has, it just seems to be hidden by the possessive suffix. "koira" dog, "koirat" dogs.
08:00:35 <fizzie> Or possibly "koiria" for a different kind of plural.
08:00:54 <fizzie> "täällä on paljon koiria" there are many dogs, "kaikki nämä koirat" all these dogs.
08:01:23 <fizzie> Er, first one meaning there are many dogs *here*, not just in general.
08:02:10 <fizzie> Also dog seems to be the first example word in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar#Plurals coincidentally.
08:02:43 <fizzie> And I forgot the second kind of plural, the "kaksi koiraa" two dogs kind of one.
08:02:54 <shachaf> koirammekokaan ei nosta?
08:04:58 <fizzie> That's kind of missing what it would lift up.
08:05:23 <shachaf> yes
08:05:28 <oerjan> fizzie: doesn't koira have the third form, then?
08:05:29 <shachaf> it's also the wrong use of "even"
08:06:55 <fizzie> oerjan: Which third form was that?
08:07:11 <oerjan> inflected plural
08:07:23 <shachaf> Google mostly finds things like http://verwelktesgedicht.tumblr.com/post/65125049172/english-a-dog-swedish-what-english-the
08:07:29 <shachaf> I think that's pretty unfair.
08:07:41 <oerjan> which has a suspicious lack of koira examples
08:08:36 <oerjan> or wait that was the koiria you mentioned
08:10:05 <oerjan> so why isn't it koiriamme or something >:)
08:10:41 <fizzie> oerjan: It would be if the whole word would be in partitive case.
08:10:52 <oerjan> hmph
08:10:57 <fizzie> oerjan: "kukaan ei hoida koiraamme/koiriamme" nobody's taking care of our dog/dogs.
08:11:15 <fizzie> There the singular/plural distinction is maintained.
08:11:44 <oerjan> does this mean the nominative with a possessive suffix never has/usually doesn't have a distinct plural?
08:12:09 <fizzie> I think that might well be true.
08:12:20 <fizzie> "myymme koiramme" we sell our dog/dogs -- right.
08:12:39 <fizzie> If you wanted to emphasize it's plural, I think you'd then just "myymme kaikki koiramme" we sell all our dogs.
08:12:42 <shachaf> imo use a simple language like hebrew
08:12:54 <oerjan> argh you finns and using nominative for objects
08:15:07 <shachaf> hebrew is good because first you encode all the meaning like verb conjugation in the vowels and then you don't write the vowels
08:15:38 <atehwa> The topic proves (once again) that Finnish is an esoteric language.
08:16:06 <shachaf> And English?
08:16:36 <shachaf> We need some Norwegian in the topic.
08:16:40 <atehwa> I think the languages that aren't somehow weird form a minority
08:17:04 <atehwa> I used to think Swedish is really straightforward until I heard the complaints of my Japanese teacher
08:17:17 <atehwa> she claimed it's easier to learn Finnish than Swedish.
08:17:46 <shachaf> finnish and japanese are p. similar
08:18:06 <atehwa> oerjan: Finnish has three cases for objects :)
08:18:29 <atehwa> shachaf: that's true, I guess it's the very-high-level structural similarity which aided her.
08:18:53 <shachaf> who are you anyway
08:18:59 <atehwa> atehwa.
08:18:59 <shachaf> `welcome atehwa
08:19:03 <HackEgo> atehwa: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
08:19:39 <atehwa> oerjan: and it's complicated more by the fact that possessive suffices (like -mme) often replace the inflective suffix.
08:20:56 <atehwa> shachaf: I'm one of those guys who were active in esolangs community in the 90's.
08:22:13 <shachaf> I didn't speak English in the 1990s so I don't know much about what was going on in that community at the time.
08:22:28 <shachaf> Maybe I should've learned Finnish instead.
08:24:49 <fizzie> atehwa: You ran the sange.fi iteration of the mailing list, unless I misremember?
08:29:01 <shachaf> There ought to be a channel for talking about esolangs.
08:29:27 <shachaf> I'd probably join.
08:30:34 <atehwa> fizzie: that's right.
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09:52:14 <fizzie> max(street-outside-the-office): https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-otakaari.jpg
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11:47:28 <Phantom_Hoover> ^help
11:47:28 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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12:01:44 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-fit.png best fit?
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13:19:23 <fizzie> (Parphrasing from an interview of Miyazaki by the Finnish public broadcasting company:) "I worked part-time for The Moomins for a while. I thought it would be funny to introduce a tank in the series. It was even approved, but then I heard it would be completely contradictory to Tove Jansson's philosophy."
13:19:28 <fizzie> And that's how the world lost the "Moomins in Tanks" concept.
13:19:55 <fizzie> (Source in Finnish: http://yle.fi/uutiset/hayao_miyazaki_jaahyvaishaastattelussa_halusin_muumeihin_tankin/6921093?origin=rss )
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14:40:41 <fizzie> Updated view: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-otakaari2.jpg
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14:47:46 <quintopia> fizzie: what time is it
14:52:40 <Deewiant> 08.16:47:46 quintopia | fizzie: what time is it
14:55:56 <fizzie> It is almost five pee-em.
14:57:24 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131108-otakaari3.jpg one more for the read
14:57:38 <fizzie> (#2 was made from 500 images, this one from a thousand.)
14:57:43 <fizzie> Road, not read.
14:57:48 <fizzie> (I'm going to go a bus now.)
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15:40:54 <mroman> are there any esolangs based on infinite state machines?
15:41:02 <mroman> who behave like finite state machines
15:41:09 <mroman> but can create new states at runtime
15:41:12 <mroman> and transitions at runtime
15:43:06 <mroman> i.e a transtion is capable of creating a new state
15:43:14 <mroman> and add transitions to it
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15:47:07 <Gregor> I have discovered the key to comedy.
15:47:08 <Gregor> http://i.imgur.com/BSFyKv9.gif
15:47:42 <mroman> Are you sure?
15:48:23 <Gregor> 120%
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15:59:46 <mroman> on a completely off-topic note
15:59:51 <mroman> there should be an esolang about uml
15:59:53 <mroman> or using uml
15:59:55 <mroman> or abusing uml
16:01:06 <mroman> who put a image of a diode (I assume?) to list of ideas?
16:05:34 <mroman> write an os in brainfuck
16:05:38 <mroman> that seems odly trivial to do
16:05:45 <mroman> oddly
16:06:33 <mroman> unless you don't count that I write it in assembly and THEN compile it to brainfuck
16:06:38 <mroman> and then compile it to native code
16:08:23 <Jafet> http://geek-and-poke.com/geekandpoke/2013/7/22/future-proof-your-data-model
16:08:48 <Jafet> Pascal is case-insensitive, how odd.
16:08:58 <Jafet> Also, why am I reading Pascal.
16:09:46 <mroman> that's
16:09:54 <mroman> probably not alowed in clean-code relational modelling stuff
16:10:21 <mroman> i.e recursion
16:10:25 <mroman> although
16:10:51 <Jafet> (I think the esolang you describe already exists, and is called UML.)
16:11:38 <mroman> well
16:11:52 <mroman> I currently have lectures about writing software in an UML-Like matter
16:11:57 <mroman> for embedded systems
16:12:02 <mroman> modell driven development :)
16:12:03 -!- Slereahphone has joined.
16:12:04 <mroman> oder model
16:12:28 <mroman> Frankly, the *only* benefit I see now is
16:12:39 <mroman> that you automatically have all the UML diagrams :)
16:12:51 <mroman> and don't write code and then draw some UML diagrams :)
16:13:00 <mroman> on the other hand
16:13:14 <mroman> you have to insert code into the code generated by the codegen
16:13:24 <mroman> because the code gen can't do *everything* for you
16:13:40 <mroman> i.e. it can't generate code on how to actually control the hardware
16:14:10 <mroman> so you have to write that code by hand using those horrible generated struct and types by the codegen
16:14:18 <mroman> oddly named
16:14:21 <mroman> and whatever
16:14:36 <mroman> also you gotta know how the codegen generates the names :)
16:14:57 <mroman> that and since it's an eclipse plugin
16:15:11 <mroman> I've spent 2 hours configuring that damn plugin so it can target that arduino
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16:16:39 <mroman> http://marketplace.eclipse.org/sites/default/files/as_trade_DomainEditor.png
16:16:43 <mroman> ^- it's pretty awesome
16:17:07 <mroman> and as you can see, it's MUCH MORE readable than code .
16:19:19 <Jafet> That looks like the kind of graph that graphviz-dot makes.
16:19:50 <mroman> I can't find any pictures with CIRO Models
16:20:08 <mroman> It's a modelling standard invented by someone working at my school
16:20:16 <mroman> of course, you don't find anything about it on google
16:20:24 <mroman> so I assume it's not really used in the real world
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16:21:22 <mroman> at least for CIRO
16:21:25 <mroman> there are some results for DESC
16:22:35 <mroman> two results
16:22:37 <mroman> both german :)
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16:24:05 <mroman> http://www.s-i.ch/fileadmin/daten/sigmo/DESC_Methode_v11.pdf
16:24:09 <mroman> ^- that's the paper
16:28:30 <mroman> http://static.squarespace.com/static/518f5d62e4b075248d6a3f90/t/526b7aeae4b0bc40704fad14/1382775549381/good-framework.jpg?format=1500w
16:28:35 <mroman> I'm starting to like that website
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16:36:13 <mroman> the only difference between UML and not-UML is << >> anyway
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16:56:10 <AnotherTest> mroman: speaking of UML diagram generators. Just what I need. I wrote one once but turned out not to be so useful
16:56:59 <AnotherTest> determining the relationships between classes was not that easy it appears
16:57:44 <mroman> I never spoke of such thing :)
16:57:49 <mroman> but yeah
16:57:54 <mroman> UML diagram generators are the way to go
16:58:03 <mroman> write code, then generate UML class diagram
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16:58:07 <mroman> unless you're a whuss
16:58:14 <mroman> then you may do it the other way around ;)
16:58:25 <AnotherTest> I usually do it the other way around
16:58:32 <mroman> AnotherTest: There's a working one for eclipse btw
16:58:38 <AnotherTest> I don't use eclipse
16:58:42 <mroman> for Java at least
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16:59:02 <AnotherTest> and I don't use java either :(
16:59:32 <mroman> Then you must be a C++ guy
17:00:08 <AnotherTest> i confess
17:06:27 <mroman> Representational State Transfer (REST) is an architectural style that abstracts the architectural elements within a distributed hypermedia system.[
17:06:30 <mroman> Ah... now I get it .
17:07:15 <mroman> the only thing missing is within an architectural distributed hypermedia system
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17:19:20 <mroman> well
17:19:30 <mroman> 20 days and I might know what my bachelor thesis is going to be about
17:19:45 <mroman> I just pray it's not some erm, crm, erp crap
17:22:13 <AnotherTest> aren't you allowed to choose the subject of your thesis?
17:22:52 <mroman> hell no
17:23:00 <mroman> well
17:23:03 <mroman> ok
17:23:11 <mroman> Yes, you can choose your own thesis
17:23:16 <mroman> if someone accepts it :)
17:23:47 <mroman> usually companies can request students to do some stuff
17:24:06 <mroman> they pay 2000$ for the school to anounce their stuff as a bachelor thesis
17:24:15 <mroman> and then you choose one from that pool
17:24:19 <AnotherTest> ugh why doesn't vim come with python support on debian
17:24:24 <AnotherTest> ah I see
17:24:48 <AnotherTest> in what field is your thesis going to be?
17:24:58 <mroman> or you can make a request for yourself to do something
17:25:10 <mroman> if you have a good idea that gets accepted
17:25:33 <mroman> that hell no was not directed at your question ;)
17:25:47 <mroman> AnotherTest: That I don't know.
17:25:58 <mroman> something with computers for sure ;)
17:26:39 <mroman> but I can't tell you in which particular field of computer stuff
17:26:48 <mroman> also... this is not a university bachelor.
17:27:56 <mroman> so I'm not sure if it even counts as a bachelor in the US
17:28:03 <AnotherTest> I don't live in the US
17:28:13 <mroman> Finland?
17:28:21 <mroman> Finland is pretty present here
17:28:27 <mroman> or Finnland?
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17:28:39 <mroman> Finnland.
17:28:58 <Slereahphone> Finn the Human
17:29:40 <mroman> That's one weird looking language
17:29:57 <mroman> you inflect verbs according to grammatical case?
17:30:48 <mroman> taloksi
17:31:57 <fizzie> There's no word so small we wouldn't inflect it.
17:32:11 <nortti> 41
17:34:12 <mroman> puhunet.
17:34:52 <fizzie> "You might speak", approximately.
17:35:27 <fizzie> Second-person singular present potential.
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18:12:10 <Slereah_> Hello the people
18:12:59 <AnotherTest> Slereahello
18:18:06 <fizzie> We the Hello.
18:20:06 <shachaf> hi fizzie
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18:39:33 <kmc> does anyone here have a solution for file transfer between a linux box and a galaxy s4 that actually works
18:39:39 <kmc> asking for actual tested solutions and not guesses
18:40:04 <elliott> morse code
18:40:18 <fizzie> Analog modem via microphone/loudspeaker.
18:40:38 <Slereah_> Semaphores
18:40:39 <elliott> I like the implication that we've both actually tested these.
18:40:41 <Slereah_> Smoke signals
18:40:46 <Bike> i have a galaxy s3 but i'd just use dropbox
18:40:52 <Bike> or email it to myself, just to piss everyone off
18:41:00 <Slereah_> Tattooing the data on a courrier's head
18:41:29 <shachaf> kmc: "galaxy s4" is awfully specific
18:41:32 <kmc> Bike: i hate the future
18:41:42 <kmc> shachaf: yes well Samsung seems to use a different MTP stack from other android devices, or something
18:41:45 <Bike> it works, aight
18:43:09 <shachaf> kmc: well with my moto x i can just click the little picture of a blue tooth and it works pretty good
18:43:14 <kmc> ;_;
18:43:25 <shachaf> and with my galaxy nexus i can plug it in in the usb port and that works too
18:43:25 <kmc> what software do you use on the linux side
18:43:29 <shachaf> have not tried anything else
18:43:43 <kmc> shachaf: does your galaxy nexus do USB mass storage aka "the terrible thing that actually fucking works"
18:43:50 <shachaf> i think so
18:43:53 <shachaf> i don't remember for sure
18:44:18 <shachaf> i don't know what bluetooth software i use just the default usb thing on ubuntu
18:44:42 <shachaf> or rather goobuntu
18:44:58 <shachaf> s/usb/bluetooth/
18:45:05 <fizzie> My Nexus 7 does not do USB mass storage, only MTP; and I've used... oh no, I forgot what I used!
18:45:24 <shachaf> i just click the clicky buttons until something happens
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18:46:11 <fizzie> (Also I've used that MTP thing, like, once. After that it's just been sftp over wifi.)
18:46:34 <shachaf> i might be mixing things up i haven't done it v. much
18:46:58 <fizzie> (I think it was that FUSE mtpfs thing.)
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18:48:42 <kmc> fizzie: which end is the sftp server?
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18:56:23 <kmc> i don't want to run a ssh server on my phone because i'll probably get owned
18:56:33 <kmc> but i want to run rsync commands
18:56:38 <kmc> i guess i could install rsync on the phone somehow
18:56:53 <kmc> or just sign up for fucking dropbox
18:57:00 <kmc> fucking fuckbox
18:57:40 <fizzie> kmc: The Linux end is the SFTP server, in my case.
18:58:35 <mrhmouse> kmc: I use ES File Manager, but there are plenty of solutions for syncing files on Android
18:58:43 <mrhmouse> most of which work over SSH
18:58:54 <fizzie> I think it was something like ES File Manager that I've used as the client on the Android side; that, and VX ConnectBot's "download file" feature, but it's not terribly user-interfacey.
18:59:23 <mrhmouse> ESFM has a wonderful interface these days.. it used to be difficult.
18:59:35 <mrhmouse> But I'm certain there are lighter apps for syncing over SSH
18:59:58 <elliott> kmc: you could download the file over a local HTTP server on your phone?
19:02:02 <mrhmouse> that's a great solution, unless he wants to do so automatically
19:04:29 <kmc> or unless I want to sync a big tree of files, which I do
19:04:37 <kmc> and delete ones that don't exist on the server, too
19:05:23 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:05:42 <mrhmouse> do you use a service like Drive? I'm guessing no, since you don't want Dropbox
19:06:46 <kmc> I already know about Dropbox and Google Drive and HTTP and all of these things...
19:06:58 <kmc> i don't need you all to brainstorm shitty solutions for me
19:07:05 <mrhmouse> do you run an Android device or an Apple device?
19:07:31 <kmc> mrhmouse: you didn't even read my original question apparently
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19:08:00 <mrhmouse> I didn't log on until your comment "i don't want to run a ssh server on my phone because i'll probably get owned"
19:08:21 <kmc> I'm gonna stop talking because I don't want to be a jerk to people who are honestly trying to help but fundamentally misunderstand the sort of inquiry I am making
19:09:42 <Bike> srry
19:10:32 <Jafet> Oh, I have one of those phone things. It can make and receive calls.
19:11:20 <mrhmouse> mine just makes noises and receives odd looks
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21:26:39 <JM002> Hello!
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21:35:43 <Phantom_Hoover> welp
21:55:24 <kmc> "In which we put a v8 API on top of spidermonkey without futzing with a separate build system. Prep work for spidernode."
21:55:28 <kmc> sometimes I run into scary things on the internet
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22:05:38 <kmc> huh python has http://docs.python.org/2/library/string.html#template-strings in addition to % and .format()
22:05:56 <kmc> and this metaprogram is possibly using all of them :<
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22:06:31 <Bike> kmc metaprogram he didn't like?
22:06:42 <Bike> too easy
22:06:43 <kmc> we're nearing that point yes
22:07:15 <shachaf> i like bugs
22:07:18 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1nsOKBgmOs
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22:41:06 <Taneb> Oh man, I spent hours today getting people to help me get my laptop working
22:41:10 <Taneb> And now my desktop's playing up
22:43:15 <Taneb> Also, I think having someone on your gamejam team who is doing a PhD in video game artificial intelligence is pretty handy
22:44:12 <kmc> depends what kind of PhD
22:44:38 <Bike> little does taneb know that it's a phd in deliberately shitty AI
22:45:11 <Taneb> Bike, it's on Monte Carlo search trees with hidden information, I think
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22:52:07 <kmc> "But USB devices were used to ferry malware cross a far greater air-gap: Russian astronauts had carried a virus on removable media to the International Space Station infecting machines there, Kaspersky said."
22:52:36 <myname> :D
22:52:43 <Bike> more like lack of air gap (by which i mean: are you fucking serious)
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23:06:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, there's obviously some kind of duality at play
23:07:31 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yeah probably
23:07:34 <Taneb> How is the fortress
23:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> you're making me feel guilty
23:07:46 <Phantom_Hoover> stop it
23:08:48 <Taneb> Oh, that reminds me
23:09:14 <Phantom_Hoover> does it remind you of something else i should feel guilty about
23:09:20 <Phantom_Hoover> if so: stop remembering
23:09:45 <kmc> bill gates has his own URL shortener
23:09:46 <kmc> b-gat.es
23:09:50 <kmc> that is so money
23:10:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, no, it's something I should feel guilty about
23:10:33 <Phantom_Hoover> kmc, looks like it's just an alias for bitly (or whatever the proper term is)
23:10:37 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, continue remembering
23:11:03 <kmc> sure
23:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> having novelty urls isn't all that money (were you not around for libc.soquest)
23:12:22 <kmc> i wasn't
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23:12:52 -!- nisstyre has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:13:35 <Bike> .soquest?
23:13:52 <Phantom_Hoover> the quest for libc.so
23:14:02 <Bike> oh
23:14:08 <Bike> aren't two-letter tlds reserved
23:14:18 <Bike> for like, ocular sudan.
23:14:41 <Phantom_Hoover> (gregor wanted to buy it, it failed because someone was more money than him (gregor was very money at the time, though))
23:15:21 <Bike> isn't a tld like ten thousand fucks
23:15:45 <fizzie> Bike: Not the .so TLD, just the libc.so domain.
23:16:15 <fizzie> (This was when .so (Somalia) was having some sort of a thing.)
23:16:26 <Bike> oh, it's somalia. durr
23:16:29 <fizzie> Involving possibly auctions or whatnot.
23:16:50 <fizzie> (I guess it's possible Gregor wanted to buy Somalia too? The domains probably come with it.)
23:17:01 <Bike> i know a guy who lives in somaliland, i don't think it has its own tld though
23:17:10 <Bike> they just use .dj like punks i imagine
23:17:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose he could've paid a band of mercenaries to take over the part of the country that hands out domains, at least
23:18:00 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, why does he live in somaliland
23:18:18 <kmc> why was gregor so money
23:18:21 <kmc> and not now?
23:18:30 <Bike> because his dad's a fucking idiot (according to him)
23:18:57 <kmc> isn't a tld like ten thousand fucks <-- depends how much you make from one fuck I guess
23:19:18 <Phantom_Hoover> oh is gregor less money now? i was just referring to his general attitude at the time
23:19:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't remember the amounts but there was some heated discussion over why you would spend that much on a novelty domain
23:20:02 <augur_> whats a good suggestion for a simple-to-parse but relatively interesting proglang
23:20:12 <fizzie> There's not even any website at libc.so which makes the whole thing quite smurfy. (It's registered by a Marcel Meyer from levelsystems.de.)
23:20:13 <Bike> APL
23:20:19 <augur_> APL lol
23:20:20 <Phantom_Hoover> eodermdrome (haha no)
23:20:25 <elliott> the amount was $1k or something
23:20:43 <Phantom_Hoover> actually... i guess eodermdrome's got pretty basic syntax
23:21:41 <Taneb> augur_, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
23:21:46 <Taneb> Easy to parse and easy to read!
23:24:42 <kmc> augur_: scheme
23:24:45 <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: In sum total I had $1,500 for it.
23:24:59 * Taneb --> bed
23:25:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:25:16 <kmc> esp. if you do what everyone does and pick a restricted subset of scheme that proves whatever point you want to make
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23:37:47 <augur_> tan:|
23:37:51 <augur_> oh whered he go
23:37:52 <augur_> that bastard
23:38:03 <augur_> kmc: scheme is easy to parse, but not rich enough
23:38:46 <augur_> it basically has two syntactic constructs: <thing>, and (<thing>*)
23:40:04 <Bike> well you asked for simple to parse.
23:40:17 <Bike> not simple-to-parse-but-not-THAT-simple.
23:41:16 <augur_> "but relatively interesting proglang"
23:41:16 <augur_> :P
23:41:28 <Bike> "interesting" includes semantics.
23:41:37 <augur_> poppycock!
23:46:09 <Koen_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Poppycock "This article is a stub, which means that it is not detailed enough and needs to be expanded. Please help us by adding some more information. Poppycock is a simple to parse, but not simple to parse but not THAT simple, but relatively interesting proglang."
23:55:50 <Phantom_Hoover> augur_, still think eodermdrome fits that brief
23:56:41 <kmc> yeah I didn't understand you meant "simple-to-parse but interesting syntax"
23:56:47 <kmc> because syntax is boring ;P
23:56:55 <kmc> (not really but kinda)
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