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00:00:43 <Koen_> does "removing the syntax from a language" mean projection it into its computational class?
00:01:12 <Koen_> because only the semantics are left
00:01:40 <quintopia> projection into its paradigm i think
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00:02:01 <Bike> projection onto some shit i just made up
00:07:14 <kmc> poppycock syntax consists of two elements: poppies and cocks
00:07:31 <Bike> ah, so it's like daisyworld but with sexual reproduction
00:11:29 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: well, I've always thought a "programming language" is just a set of "programs", and a program is just a couple (text, meaning) where 'text' is what you would write in the program file and 'meaning' is what it does (ie a function input -> output). now if you remove the syntax, that means you remove the 'text' component of programs; so the C program int main() {write(1, "Hello World!"", 12); return(0);} and the brainfuck p
00:11:29 <Koen_> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. become equivalent
00:12:24 <Phantom_Hoover> Koen_, well the thing is that equivalence of programs is at least as hard as the halting problem
00:12:28 <Bike> where's the return 0 in bf
00:12:35 <Bike> feeling ripped off here
00:13:11 <Phantom_Hoover> also what Bike said (IO is a complete nightmare to formalise)
00:13:32 <Koen_> Bike: yeah I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that :(
00:14:06 <Bike> not even that. you could say that the "output" of the function described by BF is like, the value in the zeroth cell, but then you just declared a whole shitload of programs equivalent
00:14:10 <Phantom_Hoover> like ais' proof that wolfram's turing machine is TC ran into some controversy because of the particulars of the IO
00:14:21 <Bike> or you could combine all the cells in whatever way, but then what about other ways
00:16:07 <Koen_> Bike: yeah that's something I'm always frustrated about when people write a proof that a language is TC and then someone else uses reduction from that language to prove a second language tc
00:16:24 <Koen_> "did the reduction and the initial proof used the same convention for IO?"
00:16:45 <Bike> why would that matter
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00:24:03 <augur_> Phantom_Hoover: youre horrible
00:24:47 <Phantom_Hoover> augur_, well the actual parser wouldn't be that hard, i think!
00:25:27 <augur_> perhaps i should say, it should be a one-dimensional language :P
00:25:44 <Bike> all these crazy requirements!
00:26:12 <Bike> is scheme one dimensional
00:26:13 <augur_> Phantom_Hoover: like a normal language :P
00:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean eodermdrome's graph representation is a 'one-dimensional' string if that's what you're complaining about
00:26:53 <augur_> because newlines dont matter
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00:27:07 <Bike> so python is multidimensional.
00:27:17 <augur_> yes, python is crucially >1d
00:27:18 <Bike> how many dimensions does python have
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00:27:38 <augur_> off to find out, i suppose
00:29:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you could replace them with semicolons or whatever in the eodermdrome spec and it'd fit your apparent requirements
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00:33:42 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel of the chimæric hellos | Magnus! | Koirammekokaan ei lennä? :( | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ or http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
00:33:52 <oerjan> shachaf: istr you wanted some norwegian in the topic.
00:34:40 <fizzie> oerjan: Is Tåsen some kind of a place? (It was in one of those videos.)
00:35:10 <oerjan> fizzie: i think it's possibly a suburb of Oslo?
00:35:43 <fizzie> Okay. But not a particularly special one?
00:35:55 <oerjan> more like neighborhood, it seems.
00:36:28 <oerjan> fizzie: well i cannot think of anything particularly special about it :P
00:36:47 <oerjan> but then i'm not too well acquainted with oslo.
00:38:26 <oerjan> the wikipedia article looks boring.
00:38:55 <oerjan> even the norwegian one.
00:39:02 * oerjan checks the turkish version
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00:39:59 <oerjan> i'm sure it contains shocking news if i only could read it. oh wait, google..
00:44:06 <oerjan> curiously, the turkish version mentions some WWII stuff the others don't.
00:44:23 <oerjan> (not _extremely_ shocking)
00:45:37 <shachaf> The nearest Norwegian speaker departed seconds ago.
00:45:51 <oerjan> I AM STILL HERE YOU INSENSITIVE CLOD
00:46:02 <oerjan> wait, did you kill him
00:47:31 <oerjan> google translate seems to be somewhat buggy with https. or maybe it's the turkish wikipedia.
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00:50:19 <oerjan> hm seems you do, i just got to the point in the logs.
00:51:44 * oerjan overloads his cheese quota on that youtube link.
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01:30:09 <oerjan> "After all, the great advantage of BosonSampling is that, unlike with (say) factoring or quantum simulation, we don’t actually care which problem we’re solving!"
01:30:25 <oerjan> (new shtetl-optimized post)
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01:37:47 <zzo38> If there some MUD game that has a flag you can enable which makes it so that any other players can attack you as if you are a NPC, and kill you, earn all of your stuff and experience points and whatever (it is only one-way; to kill other players they have to set a flag too)?
01:39:02 <Bike> you accidentally the question.
01:41:39 <zzo38> oerjan: What does that mean?
01:42:53 <zzo38> "After all, the great advantage of BosonSampling is that...
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01:45:43 <oerjan> zzo38: that they're just trying to make a physical experiment that has a proof that it's (probably, assuming generally believed computational complexity conjectures) hard to simulate with a classical computer, and don't really care what if anything it computes.
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02:07:30 <Jafet> BosonSampling sounds like a hi-fi audio product
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02:13:01 <oerjan> Jafet: different boses
02:13:06 <oerjan> "Boses belong to the Kayastha clan, a sub-caste of Kshatriyas (warriors/rulers) that originated from Kannauj, the capital of India during much of the classical period, and emerged in eastern India during the 11th century AD."
02:21:37 <oerjan> you know you regret reading a comment field when the commentors fail to distinguish cold and hot fushion.
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02:45:15 <kmc> how amazing that the android ssh server app keeps the server running after I tell it to shut down, and also is shit and doesn't work
02:45:27 <kmc> who could possibly have predicted this outcome oh wait it was me
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02:57:48 <shachaf> COMBINING SINGLE TEAR BELOW
02:58:04 <shachaf> unicode needs modular smileys
03:02:39 <oerjan> i distinctly see that as above
03:03:22 <oerjan> also in the logs, although there it's above a different character.
03:04:35 <Bike> "It is well known that no model of computation characterizes exactly the set of total functions" can someone give this dummy (me) a reference better than "it's well known"
03:05:56 <Bike> oh i guess that works oops
03:07:06 <Bike> well, no. rice's theorem means there's no procedure for picking out, say, primitive recursive functions, either, but that's still a model
03:18:17 <oerjan> it might depend on what is meant by "model of computation"
03:19:12 <Bike> something i can fuck around with, preferably
03:19:34 <oerjan> i meant in the quote, thank you
03:19:44 <Bike> well it has no context.
03:19:49 <Bike> i mean obviously you can describe the set of total functions, but you can describe the primitive recursive functions, uh, "better"
03:21:06 <Bike> oh, actually in context it gives primitive recursive functions and arithmetic functions as "models of computation"
03:22:23 <oerjan> well if we assume that you have (1) a string representation of "computations" (2) a total computable function for determining whether a string represents a computation (3) an interpreter for computation strings (on a TM or in whatever normal TC language)
03:22:41 <oerjan> then you might call that a model.
03:23:16 <oerjan> i guess (1) is a trivial point
03:23:22 <Bike> is that an "and" or an "or" there
03:24:18 <Bike> so you need a computable grammar, is what you're saying
03:24:55 <oerjan> yes. otherwise you could just define the grammar to be all the strings that happen to be total as functions. :D
03:25:15 <Bike> well that makes some sense, thank
03:25:41 <oerjan> i'm still not sure that your quote is actually true for this definition though
03:26:12 <Bike> what would a definition it's well-known-to-be-true for be, then
03:26:42 <oerjan> the missing point is a way to map total functions in some other representation into the model.
03:27:38 <oerjan> hm actually even then it might not be obvious, because it could do anything on non-total functions
03:28:24 <oerjan> no wait. that works, you could solve the halting problem if you could do that, i think.
03:28:58 <Bike> If you had a computable grammar for the total functions plus a map from turing machines to strings satisfying the grammar?
03:30:11 <oerjan> yes. although it doesn't need to do anything sensible if the turing machine doesn't represent a total function.
03:31:31 <Bike> how would you solve the halting problem with that? i mean there are perfectly good functions that are only defined on total functions, like evaluation
03:32:06 <Bike> oh. i'm not enough of a mathematician to do things in my head and then just imply them.
03:33:08 <oerjan> the thing here, is that this definition implies nothing about being able to compose these computations in any way (except by passing back via a TM)
03:33:31 <Bike> yeah, that would be nice.
03:33:39 <kmc> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6799351990_a716c10ae8_z.jpg
03:33:44 <Bike> maybe throwing "also this is closed under composition" in there is too ugly
03:34:06 <oerjan> well i don't mean just (.) composition, since that's still total.
03:34:28 <Bike> there are other kinds of composition?
03:35:04 <oerjan> general structured programming
03:35:52 <oerjan> however... what this does give you is a map from TMs to total functions which preserves the semantics of total functions.
03:35:52 <Bike> hm i vaguely remember that being able to take variable powers of functions did... something
03:36:03 <^v> kmc, programming on macs is impossible
03:36:05 <Bike> maybe just threw you up the gregzowieskbhch hierarchy
03:36:18 <^v> especialy with someone with add like me ;_;
03:36:21 <Bike> ^v: what's the joke
03:36:32 <oerjan> Bike: well primitive recursion is something like that
03:38:56 <oerjan> oh wait, found a proof.
03:40:34 <oerjan> to solve the halting problem: given a TM computation, make a new computation which calculates how many steps it takes. translate this. run the translation (which is total.) run the original TM for the number of steps returned.
03:41:14 <Bike> How many steps it takes to halt?
03:41:56 <oerjan> if it doesn't halt, the translation will return some nonsense, but in either case the final check will reveal this.
03:43:37 <Bike> does that actually solve the halting problem, though? i mean there's no guarantee the "make a new computation" step is effectively computable is there
03:44:10 <oerjan> yes there is, these are TM computations so just "normal" program embedding.
03:44:59 <Bike> like, the new computation runs the TM for one step, reports back if it halts, runs another step, etc.?
03:45:00 <oerjan> it's really just "add a step counter to the program"
03:45:30 <Bike> that's not total is it
03:45:32 <oerjan> yes, and it reports the number of steps taken in total.
03:45:44 <Bike> so how do you translate it
03:45:51 <oerjan> but the translation turns everything into something total.
03:46:14 <oerjan> because the other computation model has only total functions.
03:46:41 <oerjan> it just gives unrelated nonsense if the original wasn't total.
03:47:11 <oerjan> that's the assumption of how the translation works.
03:48:21 <Bike> OK, wait, so let me lay this out. We have (a) the model of general computation, which is turing machines or whatever. (b) our total model, which is a language with a total "is the input in this language" function, and a total "run the input" function. (c) a partial computable function from (a) to (b) defined for all total (a). Right? Did I miss something?
03:48:34 <Bike> from (a) to sentences of (b), or whatever
03:49:27 <oerjan> yeah. (c) should always halt itself, even if given something non-total, though.
03:50:20 <Bike> OK, I think I get how your proof works, thanks for letting me indulge myself in description i guess
03:52:01 <Bike> hm, can you use this to construct a rice violator for different types of b
03:53:30 * oerjan is briefly pondering if (c) _really_ needs to always halt, given that it's functions it's translating, not single computations
03:54:18 <Bike> i think requiring (c) to be total lets you violate rice's theorem. you do like you did except say "given a TM computation, make a new partial function which returns true when the TM fulfills [some ricey condition]"
03:54:19 <oerjan> because the functions have infinite domain, so (c) can't simply test all inputs before returning.
03:54:33 <Bike> or... something
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03:55:10 <oerjan> Bike: well i thought most of that stuff is trivial once you can solve that halting problem
03:55:19 <Bike> maybe for "models" it would be more natural to reverse c, though...
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03:57:09 <Bike> like there's obviously a total, computable map from sentences describing partial recursive functions or [total functional language du jour] to turing machines and you don't care about the other direction /that/ much
03:57:21 <Bike> or maybe you do. i'm tired
03:58:12 <oerjan> well if you had no map the other way your language could be as total as you wanted but you'd never be able to translate any _given_ total function to it...
03:59:10 <Bike> that kind of seems okay to me? when i define a program i can use some non-TM-at-all model, like arithmetic or something
03:59:11 <oerjan> you would know each string computes a total function but you might have no idea of which one
04:01:08 <shachaf> are you still trying to figure out the original quote
04:01:26 <Bike> right now i'm wondering how i would prove the program i work on at work is total
04:01:48 <oerjan> translate it to agda duh
04:02:44 <Bike> i think it is actually
04:03:22 <shachaf> well the halting problem has been solved for Bike already
04:04:26 <Bike> think you only need "loop [easy term] number of times" and "return first element in finite list that equals [easy term]" where easy terms are just parameters and floating point arithmetic on them
04:05:25 <shachaf> floating point arithmetic /!\
04:05:49 <Bike> i'm not exactly working on a compiler aight
04:09:30 <oerjan> loop NAN number of times
04:09:57 <Bike> throw modular arithmetic in there if you must >:
04:10:17 <oerjan> loop NAN `mod` 0 number of times
04:10:41 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant `mod' (imported from GHC.Real)
04:10:56 <oerjan> i'm sure it's somehwere
04:11:07 <Bike> how about modular arithmetic only and we just do floating point on top of that, jerk
04:13:04 <lambdabot> [-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Infinity,-Inf...
04:13:30 <Lymia> > [-1/0, -1/0 .. 0/0]
04:13:50 <Lymia> > [-1/0, 0/0 .. 1/0]
04:17:01 <shachaf> you know that writing style where you have lots of text and you bold lots of sentences in it
04:17:52 <Bike> like bad comics?
04:19:17 <shachaf> no, that's a separate thing
04:19:40 <shachaf> what does all that bolding in those comics even mean
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05:06:03 <zzo38> I managed to send a message to a channel in ifMUD while not connected. As far as I know, this wasn't intended to be possible.
05:09:23 <kmc> how did you do it?
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05:31:00 <zzo38> kmc: If you know ifMUD, try to figure it out... (I made up a channel specifically for testing this so as not to annoy people)
05:33:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't know ifMUD.
05:33:47 <zzo38> shachaf: I didn't expect you to.
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05:39:10 <zzo38> The plug for my clock keeps falling off!
05:39:47 <oerjan> it's time for a new clock
05:40:07 <zzo38> No, it isn't the clock that is defective; it is the position of the bed.
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05:41:19 <zzo38> Yes, it is also the position of the socket.
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05:42:42 <shachaf> Oh, wait, "clock" doesn't mean "watch".
05:42:48 <shachaf> I was sure zzo38 meant a watch.
05:43:22 <zzo38> In this case it is not a watch; it is a digital alarm clock.
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05:58:11 <shachaf> it' sbeen years since i confused clock and watch wow
05:58:55 <shachaf> what is a gender-neutral phrase that has similar connotations to "whoa, dude"
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06:15:31 <Bike> 'holy fucking shit'
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06:36:23 <kmc> shachaf: after more than a year those people finally changed the description of their users from "craftsmen" to "software engineers"
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06:37:36 <kmc> I assume this was a long painful process that involved buying a suit and burning a pile of thinkgeek shirts in a big bonfire
06:38:02 <kmc> http://javascriptmvc.com/
06:38:23 <shachaf> it's not a celebrating software engineership thing
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06:40:57 <zzo38> I made up a "Critical Vulnerability" flaw for Dungeons&Dragons game: Any damage you take from critical hits that is multiplied due to the critical hit is doubled again (so x5 becomes x10 and so on). If someone try to hit you with a damaging attack and roll a natural 1, you take 1 point of damage anyways.
06:41:57 <shachaf> zzo38: Are those two separate clauses of the flaw?
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06:42:59 <zzo38> shachaf: They are two separate sentences; I don't know if you would consider them two separate "clauses" or not, or if that is important.
06:45:40 <shachaf> The first one is bad and the second one is good?
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06:50:56 <oerjan> i think they're both bad, if someone hits a 1 they usually miss entirely or worse?
06:52:32 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes that is correct; they usually miss entirely (or sometimes hit themself).
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07:01:10 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/articles/giant-burrito-to-solve-all-of-area-mans-problems-f,34479/
07:05:08 <shachaf> kmc: what about beer/bonghits
07:05:25 <kmc> I think that's qdoba
07:05:42 <kmc> oh it says that in the first sentence :(
07:05:54 <kmc> my burrito detective skills are not needed here :(
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07:08:11 <shachaf> have you been to costena.com yet
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07:18:07 <kmc> will they sell me the World's Largest Burrito
07:18:49 <shachaf> i think someone else got the record now anyway
07:19:15 <kmc> are the normal size burritos good
07:19:16 <shachaf> but they have good burritos
07:19:39 <kmc> that's kind of far from everything
07:20:49 <shachaf> well, it's kind of near google
07:21:02 <kmc> that's not a real place for me
07:21:03 <shachaf> and i think it's near evan's house?
07:21:11 <kmc> i don't actually know where evan lives
07:21:24 <kmc> yes but in a car
07:21:37 <kmc> so it might as well have been a teleporter
07:21:49 <kmc> I actually walked from his house to Caltrain once but it was before I had any kind of map of the area
07:21:51 <oerjan> since -ito is a diminutive suffix, the world's largest burrito should be a burro.
07:22:15 <shachaf> oh, they will sell "Burrito Gigante: The 4-foot long burrito"
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07:22:22 <shachaf> "Big enough for 12-16 people for only $60.00!"
07:22:36 <kmc> oerjan: there's a taquería chain around here named El Faro, and another named El Farolito
07:22:45 <kmc> the founder of the latter is the son of the founder of the former, or something
07:23:57 <shachaf> also it's moving according to the website
07:24:00 <shachaf> i wonder where they'll move
07:24:15 <kmc> google won't translate "taquería" into icelandic :/
07:28:06 <oerjan> well icelandic wikipedia doesn't even have a taco article
07:28:09 <oerjan> http://is.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tortilla
07:30:06 <shachaf> there are also burritos at google but they do not compare
07:31:01 <shachaf> i heard that in arizona they call them "burros" can you confirm
07:32:12 <kmc> no but I can go on a fact finding mission
07:32:16 <kmc> i'll need an advance and a per diem
07:32:47 <kmc> tortilla þýðir „lítil kaka“ á spænsku
07:33:16 <kmc> today i wondered how hard it is to make tortillas at home
07:35:28 <kmc> shachaf: also the print version of The Onion is ceasing publication :(
07:36:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rwlcome: not found
07:36:18 <HackEgo> tertu: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:37:29 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed 's/aeiou//'" > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:37:31 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:38:05 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed '\'s/aeiou//\'' > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:38:07 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:38:14 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed '\'s/aeiou//\' > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:38:22 <HackEgo> shachaf: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
07:38:42 <shachaf> wow i'm so bad at this :'(
07:39:22 <shachaf> what is it missing other than g
07:40:16 <shachaf> i switched from tr to sed and did it completely badly
07:40:32 <shachaf> `run echo 'welcome "$@" | sed '\'s/[aeiou]//ig\' > bin/wlcm; chmod +x bin/wlcm
07:40:37 <HackEgo> shchf: Wlcm t th ntrntnl hb fr strc prgrmmng lngg dsgn nd dplymnt! Fr mr nfrmtn, chck t r wk: <http://slngs.rg/wk/Mn_Pg>. (Fr th thr knd f strc, try #strc n rc.dl.nt.)
07:43:31 <HackEgo> cat: bin/eoe: No such file or directory
07:43:47 <shachaf> my method was so low tech oerjan doesn't even suspect
07:46:32 <oerjan> except it seems almost impossible to verify if my guess is correct.
07:46:43 <fizzie> "tr -d would've been simpler" hth
07:47:02 <shachaf> oerjan: guess? just look at the logs
07:47:18 <shachaf> fizzie: yes but i remembered something about tr being bad at unicode or something
07:47:31 <oerjan> shachaf: um my browser has a disturbing tendency to ignore control characters.
07:47:46 <shachaf> oerjan: curl http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-11-09-raw.txt | xxd | less
07:47:53 <fizzie> That would've been an issue only if you wanted to delete a non-ASCII character.
07:48:08 <shachaf> fizzie: what about when we convert everything to utf-16
07:48:31 <fizzie> Oh no, are we converting everything to UTF-16? :(
07:50:23 <oerjan> well i guessed correctly.
08:04:59 <zzo38> Do you like "Where is my keys" soup?
08:06:07 <zzo38> It is OK if tr is bad at Unicode; that is why UTF-8 is design the way it is, that you can delete non-ASCII characters in a search/replace even if the program is otherwise ASCII only.
08:06:11 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
08:06:59 <shachaf> zzo38: Why did you bring it up?
08:07:41 <zzo38> One of the levels in a computer game I play today is titled: "Where is my keys" soup
08:07:43 <kmc> zzo38: you can't really delete specific UTF-8 characters with tr, can you?
08:08:05 <zzo38> kmc: Probably not with tr, but with other programs such as sed you probably can, even if it is the ASCII version of sed.
08:08:24 <shachaf> The ASCII version of sed operates on seven-bit characters.
08:10:06 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but just one extended to 8-bits is good enough then; you don't need Unicode or anything; it works on any 8-bit character set which is compatible with ASCII, and UTF-8 has the properties needed for it to work (Shift-JIS doesn't).
08:10:25 <zzo38> Therefore the same program can be used for UTF-8, CP437, and other character encodings.
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08:21:12 <fizzie> For some values of "works"; you can replace single characters with the s/// command, but e.g. '.' won't necessarily match a single character, and the y/// command is not going to work any better.
08:21:47 <kmc> all we need is character classes for "UTF-8 start byte" and "UTF-8 continuation byte"
08:22:01 <kmc> quick somebody write a UTF-8 to UTF-16 decoder in sed
08:22:04 <kmc> using Lies And Trickery
08:22:31 <kmc> re-coder? whatever
08:22:47 <zzo38> kmc: Best is if you are allowed to design your own character classes; it would be useful for other things too
08:40:08 <elliott> kmc: transcoder is the term?
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08:49:14 <zzo38> Well, I did recently write one in C, that does a lot of other things too, not only UTF-8 and UTF-16, but also CESU-8, VLQ, LEB128, Modified UTF-8, linebreak conversion, byteswap, and some other things. Most of these are just an emergent property of the features of the program, though.
08:49:39 <zzo38> (It doesn't actually have support for CESU-8 built-in but using a pipe you can easily convert to/from CESU-8)
08:53:56 <kmc> CESU-8, VLQ, LEB128, UVB-76, MDZhB
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08:54:19 <kmc> obviosuly it should be abbreviated ΜTF-8
08:54:24 <zzo38> shachaf: Using overlong encoding for zero
08:54:45 <zzo38> (Mainly for compatibility with C programs, and no I did not invent that.)
08:55:18 <shachaf> Are you going to finish Potion of Confusing?
08:55:42 <shachaf> You should make a sequel called Potion of Doesn't Make Sense.
08:56:33 <zzo38> OK, well, it is all public domain you can do what you want with it.
08:56:55 <zzo38> (The runtime engine is GPL, but the world file is public domain.)
08:57:36 <zzo38> kmc: What is UVB-76, MDZhB?
08:57:58 <kmc> numbers stations
08:58:27 <kmc> zzo38: and what of copyright jurisdictions where works can't be voluntarily placed into the public domain?
08:58:41 <zzo38> kmc: There is CC0 and stuff like that.
08:59:40 <shachaf> kmc: Time to apply some http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/negative+thinking !
09:00:02 <kmc> head explode
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09:03:50 <zzo38> shachaf: I will make the additional levels of Potion of Confusing as I have the time and can think of what levels to make! I do not have an intention to make a sequel, but if you like this kind of game you can try, of course.
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12:55:57 <mroman> has anyone of you guys experience with gtk?
12:57:39 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bj
12:57:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 41.7
12:58:41 <ais523> the scoring system is not so kind to it
12:58:48 <ais523> it gets lots of close wins
12:59:42 <ais523> I'd like to get that thing to top the hill
12:59:47 <ais523> perhaps it needs oodles of tweaking
12:59:57 <fizzie> Somehow I don't think you get points for "almost winning" in actual jousting either.
13:00:01 <ais523> (although it's not going to beat space_hotel no matter what I do, with its current strategy)
13:00:06 <ais523> fizzie: no, it wins almost every matchup
13:00:11 <ais523> just only by a small margin
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13:00:31 <ais523> it's only losing three atm
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13:28:50 <quintopia> ais523: the word you want is 'barely'
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13:43:35 <augur_> instead of using a rich language, i experimented with a very simple language -- the language of balanced parens -- and got an interesting result
13:47:43 <fizzie> Does it count as "simple" if it's not even regular?
13:48:39 <augur_> for my purposes it does!
13:48:50 <augur_> infact, CF+ is probably exactly ideal
13:48:56 <augur_> regular languages are _too_ simple!
13:49:12 <ais523> fizzie: well it's pretty much the simplest PDA around
13:58:55 <mroman> glib seriously has a threading library
13:59:53 <augur_> its wonderful how a few months worth of ideas can crumble in a few minutes of computational experimenting :)
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14:40:20 <olsner> mroman: https://developer.gnome.org/glib/unstable/glib-Threads.html lists at least 6 synchronization thingies you can use?
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15:08:06 <augur_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sihyVOULtA8
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16:22:31 <fungot> Jafet: ummmm....... mmmm......
16:23:13 <fungot> Jafet: and tusho, or is this supposed to impress?" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord,
16:23:17 <HackEgo> fungot: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
16:24:21 <Jafet> HackEgo could teach fungot a thing or two about writing URLs.
16:24:22 <fungot> Jafet: china is cool! wow! what a dull boy
16:25:22 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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17:17:39 <fizzie> Jafet: I could teach fungot a thing or two about that too, but I somehow never seem to manage to.
17:17:40 <fungot> fizzie: what language is str? i get conflicting opinions about threads and multi-threading as a programming paradigm. how does one cause a function to something, though
17:18:12 <fizzie> These are deep philosophical waters. How *does* one cause a function to something, indeed.
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17:28:44 <Phantom_Hoover> wow, the notation f : X → Y for functions apparently only came into use in the forties: http://mathoverflow.net/a/59478
17:32:57 <Taneb> So, it's younger than lambda calculus?
17:33:49 <Slereahphone> Phantom_Hoover: http://jeff560.tripod.com/mathsym.html
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17:59:33 <ahvqae78q9rfgphy> Do usa&israel use chat&social communication prog(facebook&twitter) to collect informations,,,,can we call that spying!!!!
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18:18:06 <ais523> I wonder why it chose this channel to spam?
18:18:24 <fizzie> Because it's the best channel.
18:18:34 <myname> who uses facebook anyway
18:20:15 <zzo38> Just because they got k-lined doesn't necessarily mean we are not going to be watched.
18:20:42 <myname> you no what? watch THIS
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19:08:18 <zzo38> What does 'confess' do in Perl?
19:11:40 <int-e> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7617852/whats-the-difference-between-carp-croak-cluck-confess-and-verbose-options
19:12:25 <ais523\unfoog> zzo38: error with stacktrace, IIRC; it's not part of the language itself but of a commonly used library
19:26:36 <mroman> oh no. I'm watched. I'm so shocked right now.
19:26:50 <mroman> also I might be maywatched
19:26:55 <mroman> that's probably a typo for baywatched.
19:42:00 <zzo38> ais523: ifMUD seems to call confess when SIGUSR2 is received.
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20:17:55 <fizzie> Sounds like a debugging aid.
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22:06:19 <ais523\unfoog> I submitted a BF Joust program I spent a couple of days working on
22:06:31 <ais523\unfoog> it doesn't do too well in HackEgo's scoring system, though
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22:08:25 <quintopia> also if it doesnt do good in this system because it doesnt crushingly defeat enough programs, it would do even more poorly in the fixed-point system
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22:18:09 <quintopia> i want to modify space_hotel to be able to beat 73ef6r7dye6_david
22:19:21 <ais523\unfoog> quintopia: I think it beats omnipotence in fixed-point
22:20:06 <ais523\unfoog> omnipotence scores 801 (wins - losses against all programs on all tape lengths); preparation scores 911
22:20:15 <quintopia> do you have a fixed point scorer to test on?
22:21:16 <ais523\unfoog> but the main codepaths are, on tapes 17 and shorter, it detects the opponent's rule of 9 and aims straight for their flag
22:21:26 <ais523\unfoog> on 18 and longer, it tries to lock them on the ninth cell and then use the time to set up decoys
22:21:33 <ais523\unfoog> and yes, there are plenty of comments in the program itself
22:22:15 <ais523\unfoog> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays <
22:22:17 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 0.0
22:22:24 <quintopia> so it's one of those that's like "wait for the opponent to do their decoy build so you can tell where their flag is"?
22:22:26 <ais523\unfoog> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
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22:22:28 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_this_sort_of_thing: 21.2
22:22:32 <ais523\unfoog> let me rename that, it keeps breaking the table layout
22:22:39 <Taneb> So, if I made something that set up defence for one less than I could safely, it would beat that on some tapes?
22:22:46 -!- ais523\unfoog has changed nick to ais523.
22:22:46 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_unfoog_this_sort_of_thing: 0.0
22:22:52 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays <
22:22:55 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing_is_done_so_often_it_doesnt_do_so_well_nowadays: 0.0
22:22:56 <ais523> !bfjoust this_sort_of_thing >>>>(+)*20(<(+)*90)*4(>)*8(>[(+)*20[-]])*21
22:22:59 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_this_sort_of_thing: 22.2
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22:23:24 <quintopia> brb mosh is outputting some crazy random ass characters
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22:33:03 <Bike> backtick relcome apott
22:33:04 <HackEgo> APott: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:33:44 <Taneb> So, what brings you to the channel?
22:34:05 <APott> I came across this wiki and find some of these languages extremely interesting and thought I would talk to a few people
22:34:35 <myname> i heard we have a software project next semester where we have to write a compiler for rail
22:34:40 <myname> i am looking forward to it
22:34:50 <Taneb> APott, well, we're off-topic pretty much all the time, I'm afraid
22:35:12 <Taneb> Bike, no, a machine that you can in front of the the train to put down tracks
22:35:13 <APott> lol it's fine I'm used to off topic
22:35:14 <zzo38> You can be both ontopic and offtopic.
22:35:21 <Bike> oh, those things are cool
22:35:30 <zzo38> If you have any ontopic things to write, do it.
22:35:38 <Taneb> APott, what're your favourite esolangs, then?
22:35:48 <APott> I've written front ends and interpreters for languages but still haven't figured out how to compile anything
22:35:56 <APott> oh well I'im quite new to esolangs
22:36:10 <Bike> try a brainfuck compiler. super easy.
22:36:13 <zzo38> APott: Which ones did you do?
22:36:16 <APott> The first one I've used was Brainfuck which I actually wrote an interpreter for, it's a bit buggy though
22:36:45 <APott> I've never written a compiler, just interpreters. I wrote it in D since it's my favorite
22:36:52 <zzo38> What do you want the compilers to target anyways?
22:37:38 <APott> My goal is to eventually develop a native compiler but that's extremely far off I imagine
22:38:15 <zzo38> (If you are going to target Z-machine, try the Frolg macroassembler. Other things to possibly target include LLVM, C, Haskell (in fact a function can be constructed at runtime), 6502 (although there are different computers using it, such as C64 and Famicom), etc)
22:38:33 <APott> If I wanted to I could write a translator to a language probably, jsut haven't invested the time.
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22:38:47 <APott> hmm I will have to look into those
22:39:05 <APott> I have looked into LLVM but since I prefer D it's a bit difficult to get LLVM working
22:39:08 <myname> APott: a compiler is a translator
22:39:31 <APott> But a translator translates a high level language to another high level language
22:39:41 <APott> Compilers mainly go down a level
22:39:59 <Bike> 'levels' are ill defined. what now
22:40:11 <APott> alright, you got me. :D
22:40:23 <Slereah> But technically assembly language is just another language :o
22:40:26 <ais523\unfoog> levels are ill-defined, but it's still possible to compare them sometimes
22:40:41 <Slereah> Also there are processors of high level languages
22:40:52 <Slereah> So the difference between the two is more of a convention
22:40:56 <APott> Yeah but assembly is just characters in place of instructions
22:41:12 <ais523\unfoog> assembly often produces object files rather than executables
22:41:46 <pikhq> And assemblers often have macro languages and such.
22:42:09 <zzo38> Some assemblers don't have macros, although the ones I make/modify do.
22:42:29 <Slereah> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_processor
22:42:46 <myname> Slereah: a professor of mine won one once
22:42:55 <myname> he had no use so he wanted to give it away
22:43:12 <pikhq> Also, even machine code is a bit abstract from CPU architecture anymore.
22:43:26 <APott> Depends what you mean by machine code
22:43:33 <Slereah> Isn't machine code exactly what the CPU gets?
22:43:36 <pikhq> Between weird microcode tricks and nonlinear execution of code...
22:43:41 <Slereah> I thought the more abstracted one was assembly
22:43:50 <Bike> aseembly is just a textual representation for "machine code".
22:43:59 <Bike> But it turns out that "machine code" isn't "direct" either.
22:44:21 <APott> Depends what you refer to as machine code.
22:44:42 <pikhq> Slereah: Yes, but x86 basically turns the opcodes into an internal RISC ISA and then executes that.
22:44:55 <pikhq> Turns out it's hard to do anything sophisticated with CISC.
22:44:56 <APott> now that part is beyond me
22:45:11 <Slereah> At least with Brainfuck you know what you're getting!
22:45:18 <pikhq> And then there's register renaming and such...
22:45:22 <Bike> until you have to worry about wrapping cells
22:45:46 <pikhq> Some x86 opcodes take effectively 0 cycles.
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22:45:52 <Slereah> Wrapping cells is just the BF version of full memory
22:46:00 <APott> So I'm bored and I want some practice and such. What's your suggestion for a medium level language to interpret?
22:46:13 <APott> medium level I mean medium skill level to interpret
22:46:23 <Bike> real fast nora's hair salon: shear disaster download
22:47:05 <myname> i always thought of buildung a subleq processor
22:47:11 <Taneb> Bike, I don't know that one
22:47:16 <myname> caching would be horrible, though
22:47:23 <Taneb> Did you mean Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
22:47:39 <Bike> i meant what i said and i said waht i meant
22:47:55 <APott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload ?
22:48:02 <APott> lol okay Dr. Suess
22:48:03 <Taneb> APott, that's Underload
22:48:17 <Taneb> *shudder* that was Lewis Carrol
22:48:41 <APott> Alright, I will look into it
22:49:24 <myname> i'd say befunge is medium difficulty
22:49:46 <Slereah> In what language will you code it?
22:49:59 <Slereah> Interpreter difficulty vary a lot with it
22:50:15 <Slereah> Brainfuck is pretty easy to do in C, Unlambda in Scheme
22:50:20 <Slereah> But not so much vice versa
22:50:34 <myname> APott: just wondering, do you have any opinion about rust?
22:50:49 <APott> As in Mozilla's language?
22:51:33 <APott> I think it's to new
22:51:43 <APott> I don't really like it
22:52:05 <Bike> i don't think brainfuck is that hard in scheme... or unlambda in C, probably
22:52:23 <Slereah> Well unlambda is trivial in Scheme
22:52:37 <myname> APott: people there say D is for C++ coders who like C++ and rust is for C++ coders who hate C++
22:52:52 <Bike> i mean i have a "brainfuck to lisp compiler" that's like twelve lines.
22:53:16 <ais523\unfoog> a brainfuck to almost anything compiler is like 12 lines
22:53:19 <Slereah> Well I guess it's not too hard to do with lists for tape
22:53:24 <Bike> right, exactly
22:53:25 <ais523\unfoog> unless the target language is almost impossible to write in
22:53:32 <APott> D for me is a perfect language for several reasons. I like what C++ does, I like the OO paradigms, some of the syntax, and how things are organized.
22:53:33 <Bike> scheme has arrays...
22:53:46 <pikhq> Brainfuck to x86 MMU? :)
22:53:48 <APott> But I like higher level features like you may see in Java or C#
22:54:11 <APott> D is right in the middle, has low level features, a beautiful syntax and some high level features
22:55:12 <zzo38> APott: Such features can be good for some things, although I happen to like macros and pointers; many programming languages don't implement very good macros. BLISS is one that has powerful macros and actually has many other features which are pretty good too; however I think it lacks a proper type system.
22:55:25 <zzo38> (Unfortunately I don't know of any GNU BLISS compiler)
22:55:57 <myname> rust has 4 kinds of pointers!
22:56:05 <Bike> i have pointers
22:56:23 <APott> In a language like D I don't see the need of macros
22:57:06 <zzo38> APott: Maybe, but I find macros (and meta-macros, and meta-meta-macros, and meta-meta-meta-macros) are always useful things to have.
22:57:44 <Bike> btw zzo didn't you just say "Maybe you're right, but actually you're totally wrong"
22:58:15 <APott> Read through some pages on the site, it's quite feature filled: http://dlang.org/overview.html
22:58:18 <zzo38> Bike: Not really, since some people might not find it as useful or as necessary as other people.
22:59:06 <ais523\unfoog> APott: IIRC some standard language features are implemented as macros
22:59:19 <ais523\unfoog> they work quite differently from C-style macros, though
22:59:47 <ais523\unfoog> elliott: APott's arguing that D doesn't need them, despite the fact that it has them
22:59:55 <elliott> why are we arguing about that?
23:00:19 <APott> Depends what you mean by macros
23:00:19 <Bike> because the topic of this channel is programming languages and we gotta stay on topic.
23:00:50 <ais523\unfoog> well, programming languages generally there are loads of channels for
23:01:01 <ais523\unfoog> given that that's a major part of what Freenode is for
23:01:26 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
23:01:52 <ais523\unfoog> this channel's for the languages that didn't quite make the mainstream, due to being mindbogglingly badly designed
23:01:59 <APott> Almost any reason you may use macros in C isn't needed in D because everything is implemented in the language
23:02:06 <zzo38> TeX has very powerful macro system, sufficient to do such things as sorting an index, playing chess, and implementing a BASIC interpreter.
23:02:14 <pikhq> Though one wonders about C++.
23:02:31 <APott> I believe the same with C++
23:03:15 <zzo38> ais523: I specified them in an arbitrary order actually. The first two I have done; the third someone else has done.
23:03:39 <zzo38> APott: Perhaps in some languages you get that to varying degrees, although I prefer to have the macro system instead and have a standard library of macros to implement many of these higher level language features.
23:05:22 <zzo38> I have written a file about what features I would like to see in "Black-C" which is a variant of GNU89 C. I don't mention things that need extra runtime support since I want to be "C-like" in its runtime environment.
23:06:27 <zzo38> I did look at stuff about D before; they did fix the template syntax that is no good in C++.
23:09:58 <APott> is there an esoteric language with emoticons? I'm curious lol
23:10:14 <zzo38> APott: Yes I think there is at least one.
23:10:21 <zzo38> (I forget what it is called)
23:10:22 <Taneb> ":)" is a valid brainfuck program
23:10:38 <zzo38> Taneb: So is anything with balanced square brackets.
23:10:40 <Taneb> Although not a valid Underload program!
23:10:52 <APott> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Emoticon ?
23:14:37 <APott> So who was I talking about macros with? What exactly do you need macros for in C, the most
23:15:11 <Bike> did you get shot
23:15:31 <zzo38> C macros aren't quite very powerful but can do a few things, including really unusual things
23:15:35 <Bike> you. you jjust stopped
23:15:47 <zzo38> Especially when used with GNU extensions
23:16:14 <myname> C macros can be used to do anything you really shouldn't do with macros
23:16:14 <APott> most things you may used macros for in C have a specific keyword in D for i
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23:17:51 <zzo38> Another thing I have used C macros for is to pass around local variables and arguments to subroutines if they want a copy
23:18:19 <APott> why not just pass as an argument?
23:19:22 <zzo38> In case you are calling the same subroutine several times and they want copies of the variables
23:19:37 <zzo38> It just makes it a bit more convenient for me, that is all
23:19:51 <APott> in D you can just define a constant
23:19:53 <zzo38> These programs are open source so you are allowed to look (and modify it)
23:19:59 <APott> const int num = 5;
23:20:10 <zzo38> You can do that in C too, but that isn't what I was doing.
23:21:12 <myname> for zoidberg { whoop(); }
23:21:31 <zzo38> Specifically I made this macro: #define Add_to_parsebuf() if(k)add_to_parsebuf(parsebuf,dict,d,k,el,ne,p1,flag),k=0;p1=p+1;
23:21:44 <Bike> this is clearly the perfect opportunity to mention my esolang idea so i'm going to do that: verilog, but for 1940s targeting computers.
23:22:01 <zzo38> Bike: OK, can you give some details?
23:22:29 <Bike> i'm having trouble thinking up how exactly relationships should be specified. like, say you have a shaft and a gear. there are tons of ways to connect those - you could have the shaft at a different place on the gear, or have the gear rotate around it freely
23:23:07 <Bike> it doesn't really lend itself to "well here are the basic gates"
23:24:29 <zzo38> Bike: Then you need to make up a SHAFT command and a GEAR command and the commands for connection; at least if being made like HWPL it works by specifying connections; Verilog works by events instead so you would need to figure out how that works and I don't know.
23:24:32 <Bike> and that's not even getting into like, three dimensional cams, which are basically specified as a mostly arbitrary volume.
23:25:17 <zzo38> I don't know much about that.
23:25:28 <zzo38> But you can post in esolang wiki list of ideas if you have something to write there.
23:25:50 <Bike> eh i'd like to actually write up a proper page. it's kind of dumb hanging out here when i don't even have a wiki account.
23:26:34 <zzo38> Then register (optional, I think) and post. Even if you don't know what to write on a proper page, it can be written in list of ideas, at least.
23:28:05 <ais523\unfoog> even for spambots, apparently, although we changed the CAPTCHA a few days ago
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23:55:52 <fizzie> I think I saw #define forever for (;;) somewhere. (And then forever { ... } later.)
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23:58:01 <myname> i would've made #define ever (;;)
23:58:34 <fizzie> #define getit (;;) for getit { ... }
23:59:18 <oerjan> fizzie: shouldn't that be #define getit (;0;)