00:00:24 <Slereah> It needs to be revitalized by drug money
00:03:18 <oerjan> i'd imagine moore's law figures in that somehow.
00:07:21 <int-e> In theory, there's some sort of equilibrium (the fewer miners there are the more attractive it is to mining), and of course a competition for mining faster and more cheaply (this explains the move to ASICs that happened this year.)
00:08:03 <oerjan> the fewer miners part doesn't apply if there's no _marginal_ profit at all.
00:09:50 <Phantom_Hoover> also that profitability needs to sustain all bitcoin transactions happening everywhere
00:09:53 <int-e> there are supposed to be transaction fees to compensate for the lack of new coins being minted
00:18:47 <elliott> mining stops eventually, anyway?
00:19:15 <Fiora> I think it continues forever?
00:19:31 <elliott> oh. I guess I don't understand how bitcoin works then
00:20:31 <Fiora> I think like. mining gets you new coins + transaction fees
00:20:39 <Fiora> and the new coins slowly trail off?
00:21:10 <elliott> so it never actually reaches the total number of bitcoins, just approaches it slower and slower?
00:21:17 <lexande> no, it eventually reaches it
00:21:56 <Fiora> I think like it gives 50 per block, then 25, then 12.5.... plus transaction fees?
00:22:07 <elliott> then surely mining eventually gets you 0 coins? what would be the point to mining then?
00:22:24 <Fiora> I think the transaction fees?
00:22:25 <int-e> "mining" is the process of signing blocks of transactions. that needs to be done to keep the system going. the freshly minted coins are an incentive for doing so, but as I mentioned, transaction fees are possible (with transactions having fewer incoming coins than outgoing coins; the remainder can be claimed by whoever does the proof of work for the transaction's block)
00:23:24 <lexande> the quantities are finite precision so eventually it does reach 0
00:25:28 <int-e> (oddly I trust bitcoins about as far as I can throw them :) )
00:30:58 <int-e> http://bitcoin.sipa.be/ ... the growth in (totally wasted!) computing power is crazy.
00:34:16 <oerjan> clearly the future belongs to spamcoin, a cryptographically secure currency based on solving captchas.
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00:39:41 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, has anyone tried working out accusatory stats like power costs and carbon footprint yet
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00:43:16 <int-e> Hmm. Last I checked, ASIC hardware was computing about a billion hashes per Joule. (which is a couple of 100s times better than GPUs; I have no numbers for FPGAs, but they should be inbetween)
00:44:42 <int-e> So we have something like a 6MW lower bound on the power usage, and it's likely to be quite a bit more.
00:45:30 <int-e> 20MW? 100MW? I don't know :)
00:49:33 <int-e> actually https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Mining_Hardware_Comparison has MHash/J numbers for a fairly wide range of hardware, including FPGAs
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01:07:31 <int-e> what kind of scam is this? http://carbonjar.com/
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01:36:58 <kmc> http://www.amazon.com/b?node=8037720011
01:37:07 <kmc> Amazon is going to start delivering packages by drone, as soon as the FAA will let them
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01:40:17 <kmc> Bike: http://www.amazon.com/b?node=8037720011 Amazon is going to start delivering packages by drone, as soon as the FAA will let them
01:41:04 <Bike> i'm amused that i first heard that from a foreign policy person
01:41:31 <Bike> anyway i don't thnk i see the point
01:43:14 <Bike> maybe it's just me personally but the only thing i've wanted delivered in less than half an hour is dinner
01:43:49 <kmc> well my house runs on Google Shopping Express
01:44:00 <kmc> we don't *need* things same-day but it's convenient
01:44:15 <kmc> (helps that GSE's prices are ridiculously unsustainably low)
01:44:47 <kmc> when Amazon Prime was first announced I thought it was silly to care about getting stuff in 2 days instead of 7ish but now it feels like a big reason to buy things on amazon
01:45:03 <Bike> well i don't use that >_>
01:45:12 <kmc> i have it for free for now but i'm probably hooked
01:45:16 <kmc> you raise the level of convenience available and give people a taste and they won't go back
01:45:20 <Bike> i think i'm just unsure what to think of megacorporations being run by sci-fi fans
01:45:20 <kmc> first hit's free, kids
01:45:36 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, can't be worse than them being run by businessmen
01:45:52 <kmc> they are definitely run by businesspeople, whether or not they're also sci-fi fans
01:46:03 <Bike> when i think of things being run by engineers i think of chinese dams.
01:46:16 <kmc> don't kid yourself that the CEO of a $180B company is not a businessman
01:46:40 <Bike> sure. and i mean they're all ignoring the 'mass social inequality is bad' bits of cyberpunk anyway
01:46:45 <kmc> just cause you share some culture that was subcultural in the distant past
01:46:47 <kmc> also I don't think ultra-fast delivery has to be a big part of the value proposition
01:47:18 <kmc> thanks P_H for that thing you do
01:48:00 <kmc> (didn't little rich boys reading 30s pulp sci-fi grow up to be businessmen too?)
01:48:37 <kmc> drones have the potential to be cheaper and a lot easier to manage logistically
01:49:00 <kmc> compared to a big heavy gasoline-powered truck with a human inside, run by a third party
01:49:09 <kmc> but I dunno, I haven't run the numbers or anything
01:50:05 <kmc> then again the best ways to move huge amounts of cargo slowly hasn't changed that much in 100 years
01:50:10 <kmc> boats and trains
01:50:17 <kmc> containerization is a big deal though
01:50:34 * Bike imagines his dad breaking in "I think you mean SHIPS, kmc"
01:51:06 <Bike> there's a lot of shipping stuff up and down the columbia, it's neat, though
01:51:58 <Phantom_Hoover> gasoline-powered as opposed to what, kerosene-powered?
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01:55:20 <oerjan> hm i wonder how those projects on making kerosene from algae are going.
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01:58:42 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: mostly, small quadrotor drones are electric, I didn't check about this one though
01:59:23 <Phantom_Hoover> oh i assumed they'd be like, jet uavs with boxes of books on little parachutes
02:02:43 <kmc> that would be awesome
02:02:46 <kmc> ballistic package delivery
02:02:51 <kmc> your pizza in 30 minutes or the next one's free
02:03:02 <kmc> Bike: here's an interesting theory https://twitter.com/tcarmody/status/407321435016032256
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02:13:03 <Phantom_Hoover> wouldn't ballistic delivery be a massive artillery cannon firing delivery shells
02:13:30 <zzo38> A few weeks ago I saw someone repairing a Coca-Cola vending machine and once they closed it and left, they left the configuration menu active, so I was able to see the error messages in it and the sale count and so on; I don't know what all of the options mean though.
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02:29:18 <Bike> kmc: you know i was actually thinking that
02:29:25 <Bike> well, i didn't make the china connection
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02:34:11 <kmc> zzo38: neato
02:34:26 <kmc> I remember back in like 1998 reading about coke machines that were connected to the internet and thinking "wow that's cool"
02:34:38 <kmc> there's probably a Serious Business usecase for that now
02:34:52 <Bike> what are they on the internet for? remote reconfiguration?
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02:35:39 <Bike> price of dr pepper is raised one dollar in the middle of my purchase and i am arrested for fraud
02:36:06 <kmc> i imagine it could be useful for logistics
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03:22:39 <quintopia> zzo38: a lot of machines leave the default passcode for the debug menu
03:28:30 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes I know, I have tried; on those machines I usually find the menu has read-only options, and you cannot do anything other than read the sale count, cash, and error message.
03:29:06 <quintopia> but it's very interesting to see which drinks sell most
03:29:36 <zzo38> Yes, you can check that.
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03:48:55 <kmc> "@SnoopDogg: My next record available in bitcoin n delivered in a drone."
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04:02:53 <quintopia> of course, he'd have to charge like 2BTC to be able to pay for the drone
04:04:01 <quintopia> plus you'd have to be crazy to pay in a deflationary currency
04:11:51 <zzo38> Maybe they are crazy enough.
04:13:28 <kmc> itym "you'd have to be high to pay in a deflationary currency"
04:15:26 <shachaf> kmc: i thought it was "you have to pay in a deflationary currency to get high"
04:20:51 <kmc> it's back i thought
04:21:00 <kmc> something else with that name anyway
04:29:41 <quintopia> kmc: BUT HOW CAN WE TRUST SOMETHING LIKE THAT EVER AGAAIN
04:29:58 <Bike> silk road probably
04:31:01 <quintopia> shachaf: WE'LL NEVER GET QUALITY CHINESE CLOCKS AGAIN
04:42:26 <zzo38> I am writing Z-machine in Famicom. Currently I have 780 non-comment lines. (counted using egrep -cv $'^[\t ]*(;|$)')
04:43:45 <zzo38> Why does it seem many programs today fail to follow the UNIX way of using filters and pipes and that stuff?
04:44:34 <kmc> tomorrow on jerkcity: QUALITY CHINESE CL?OCKS
04:45:32 <Bike> has unix ever actually been pipe-based or has it been based on inconsitent arcane command linearguments forever
04:46:42 <zzo38> Bike: Well, a lot of things are; lp is although dvilj4 isn't unless its argument is -
04:47:26 <Bike> how about, like, ls. or dd.
04:48:28 <zzo38> Well, ls is designed for output, not input; dd is not using the common syntax of other commands due to some strange reason, although it does use stdin/stdout if you don't tell it the filenames otherwise.
04:48:32 <quintopia> zzo38: probably because the unix way of doing things is not actually the best way for every situation?
04:49:04 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, it isn't best for everything, but there is a lot of things it would work for but that they don't do it that way.
04:49:26 <Bike> zzo38: i mean, ls does all its own coloring and sorting and stuff.
04:49:35 <L8D> is there a turing complete language with only 2 instructions?
04:49:40 <quintopia> zzo38: it doesn't really make sense for imagemagick, for instance. imagemagick is a lot simpler the way it is
04:50:17 <quintopia> bitchanger, perhaps? just go to the tarpits section of the wiki and poke around.
04:50:52 <Bike> L8D: sk combinators?
04:50:56 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes, for ImageMagick, it still does need the command to tell it the file type and all that stuff, and you might have more than one file; yet it still helps that you can tell it to use stdin/stdout if you don't give a filename (you still need the type) and that can be useful too
04:51:14 <L8D> Bike: what is that supposed to mean?
04:51:23 <Bike> L8D: sk combinator calculus
04:51:36 <zzo38> But I think for dvilj4 it would make more sense to use pipe/filter (dvilj4 is a program to convert DVI to PCL)
04:52:52 <L8D> sk combinators need i combinators to be turing complete
04:53:01 <L8D> and bitchanger is 4 instructions
04:53:05 <quintopia> L8D: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Impera
04:53:06 <zzo38> L8D: No, it doesn't, i can be made from sk
04:53:21 <oerjan> L8D: also /// is TC with only / and \
04:53:57 <zzo38> shachaf: Like oerjan said, i = skk
04:54:20 <L8D> well, I’m looking for something that can be hidden in the bits of a file
04:54:35 <shachaf> zzo38: i thought you said you can be made from sk
04:54:45 <oerjan> L8D: take a look at iota and jot
04:54:49 <quintopia> L8D: you can hide any language in the bits of a file.
04:55:09 <L8D> I’m talking about instruction-per-birt
04:55:40 <Bike> it would be nice if there was some general way to put larger data into smaller data units
04:55:41 <quintopia> hmm can't think of any like that off the top of my head
04:55:46 <Bike> like if there was some kind of code
04:56:00 <Bike> but: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag
04:56:35 <L8D> Bitwise Cyclic Tag works...I guess
04:57:38 <shachaf> you know how when you have italic text inside other italic text you just un-italic it?
04:57:54 <L8D> in what scenario?
04:58:07 <L8D> you can do nested italics tags in HTML
04:58:16 <zzo38> shachaf: In MediaWiki, do you mean?
04:58:18 <L8D> <i>Foo<i>Var</i></i>
04:58:36 <quintopia> L8D: Jot might be more compact than BCT
04:58:40 <zzo38> And you can use HTML italics in MediaWiki too
04:59:02 <quintopia> here's a bunch of others to try: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits
05:00:10 <zzo38> I once read on Wikipedia some article about classical logic, one of the sections game what looks to me like SK calculus with one more rule dealing with negation.
05:03:35 <oerjan> SK calculus is like the curry-howard correspondence for the hilbert axioms of logic.
05:04:12 <oerjan> oops pressed return too fast
05:04:32 <kmc> it occurs that i have the first google hit for "ptrace for breakfast"
05:05:11 <quintopia> i just came up with an idea for a two-instruction tape-based imperative TC lang
05:05:21 <quintopia> because i couldn't find one on the wiki
05:05:23 <shachaf> i like ptrace and breakfast
05:05:50 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry-Howard_correspondence#Correspondence_between_Hilbert-style_deduction_systems_and_combinatory_logic
05:06:15 <Bike> has there ever been a relevant dilbert parody
05:06:38 <oerjan> hilbert, not dilbert, bike
05:07:12 <Bike> no i mean dilbert but about hilbert
05:09:54 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know how many nested conditionals are required to implement the simplest turing machine
05:09:55 <oerjan> maybe they could reanimate him as a zombie or something
05:23:35 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know of a lang that is TC without being capable of nested loops or conditionals, or which bounds the number of nested loops or conditionals?
05:24:10 <Bike> what do you mean by capable
05:25:17 <quintopia> i thought it was obvious. why do you ask that?
05:25:52 <Bike> because (one) if it's TC it can emulate a system with unbounded loops (two) we were just talking about combinators which you surely know about and don't have loops or conditionals
05:26:44 <quintopia> well again, i'm thinking only about imperative langs here
05:27:35 <quintopia> i mean that if you want to do unbounded loops
05:27:52 <quintopia> because the lang itself supports no such constructs in its syntax
05:28:02 <quintopia> (or unbounded nested conditionals)
05:28:51 <Bike> ok, scheme doesn't have loops, how about that.
05:29:40 <quintopia> i always thought of scheme as mostly functional
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05:31:14 <Bike> it has a special form (or maybe it's a macro, who cares), "begin", that does a sequence of things one at a time. "imperative"
05:31:17 <quintopia> okay let's make it simpler: know of any imperative TAPE languages with bounded depth of loop/conditional?
05:31:40 <quintopia> (of course more simple means morel ikely to get a "no" but i have to try)
05:31:43 <oerjan> pretty sure bf is TC with bounded depth.
05:31:59 <Bike> yeah, there you go.
05:32:49 <oerjan> probably as little as two deep.
05:33:31 <oerjan> a main loop to keep things running, and subloops to do various conditional stuff.
05:33:48 <Bike> any implementation of another language in brainfuck would establish a bound, no
05:34:00 <quintopia> yeah i'm looking at the TM impl in BF.
05:34:42 <Bike> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/dbfi.b a bound: however deep this is
05:35:05 <Bike> like five or six probably
05:44:26 <kmc> oh i was just looking at that
05:44:50 <Bike> or you could just write a SUBLEQ interpreter or some shit
05:49:30 <zzo38> Do any SQL systems support trigger indices? (Meaning an index on a field of a table or view, but not for the data, but rather for all triggers on it having conditions where one of them is separated by AND and tests if that field is equal to some value, then it places it in that index slot.)
05:53:54 <kmc> regclobber.c:69:5: warning: ‘main’ is normally a non-static function [-Wmain]
05:53:57 <kmc> exciting variation!
05:54:13 <kmc> also the syntax for attributes on function definitions is f'd up
05:54:13 <kmc> void __attribute__((noreturn)) finish(int retval) {
05:55:02 <kmc> vs for a declaration: void finish(int retval) __attribute__((noreturn));
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05:58:44 <Bike> why'd they switch the order on declarations
05:59:35 <kmc> probably some awful syntactic ambiguity
06:03:34 <kmc> GiveDirectly expanded into Uganda: http://www.givedirectly.org/blog_post.php?id=4639869356775728332
06:03:39 <kmc> "In the extremely rural areas where we chose to work, few households possessed government IDs (required to register for mobile money) so we had to find creative ways to expedite ID procurement"
06:03:48 <kmc> no further detail is given
06:09:56 <L8D> What channel do I go to for cryptography?
06:10:10 <L8D> I want to ask them what book I should buy
06:10:32 <zzo38> I had a book once but I forget the title
06:10:37 <Bike> i liked scheiner's.
06:10:41 <Bike> kinda informal i guess.
06:11:08 <kmc> Applied Cryptography?
06:11:10 <kmc> it's... outdated
06:11:12 <kmc> http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2013/07/22/applied-practical-cryptography/
06:11:25 <Bike> shows what i know.
06:11:33 <kmc> Cryptography Engineering is supposedly better
06:11:58 <kmc> the ##crypto topic links to http://www.cacr.math.uwaterloo.ca/hac
06:12:08 <kmc> cool how these books all have almost the same title, eh?
06:12:43 <Bike> my book will be titled "engineering applications of cryptography"
06:15:39 <zzo38> Whatever book it was I read, explained several things including encrypted poker games and secret sharing algorithms.
06:16:33 <zzo38> Select any point in the plane and generate a bunch of equations of lines all of which pass through the point; you need any two of them to figure out what point is meant.
06:17:51 <kmc> those are cool yeah
06:18:01 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think about zero knowledge proofs?
06:18:31 <kmc> they're pretty neat
06:18:35 <zzo38> (Several things would have to be taken into account to make a secure implementation though, I think)
06:19:26 <zzo38> kmc: I didn't really remember much about how zero knowledge proof works; maybe I can look it up later to understand better
06:19:49 <kmc> ZKP that I know a 3-coloring of some graph we both have: i write down colors for every vertex on slips of paper and put them face down on the table. you pick an edge. i reveal those slips and burn the rest. you see that they name different colors
06:20:27 <kmc> we repeat this until you're convinced i'm not just lucky. but i randomly permute the 3 colors between rounds so that you can't assemble an overall coloring
06:20:54 <kmc> for an electronic version, replace slips of paper with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commitment_scheme
06:21:00 <zzo38> Ah, OK. Yes I have read about that (but I think not in a book though)
06:21:22 <Bike> it's pretty amusing to imagine this actually being done with slips of paper
06:21:28 <shachaf> kmc: "commitment scheme" would be a good name for a lisp dialect
06:21:29 <Bike> between outlaws in the wild west, perhaps
06:21:39 <kmc> which is similar to "encrypt them and then reveal some keys" but actual encryption schemes don't have all the desired technical properties
06:21:42 <Bike> refusing to reveal the knowledge of where the treasure is
06:21:55 <kmc> that would be awesome Bike
06:22:10 <kmc> you should write this story
06:23:45 <Bike> it would be easier to plot if it was a hamiltonian cycle or something instead
06:23:56 <shachaf> what about negative-knowledge proofs
06:24:06 <shachaf> where you end up being more confused than when you started
06:24:10 <kmc> TA's lament
06:24:18 <kmc> also student's lament I guess
06:25:11 <Bike> pretty sure that is bike's lament
06:26:01 <kmc> traditional ZKPs are all interactive like that, but there are non-interactive variants
06:26:14 <Bike> huh, i didn't know hamilton tried to make 3ions for path finding
06:26:27 <Bike> somehow i forgot that it's the same hamilton as quaternions
06:26:37 <kmc> where I hash the problem description and use the bits of the hash output as your random choices
06:26:38 <shachaf> what's a good non-interactive zkp
06:27:00 <kmc> and provide enough answers that it's implausible I brute-force tweaked the problem description to get favorable coin flips
06:27:17 <kmc> i don't understand all the subtleties of how to make this work properly
06:27:23 <shachaf> where can i read about that
06:27:37 <kmc> Zerocoin uses non-interactive ZKPs, committment schemes, *and* one-way accumulators to build true anonymity into the bitcoin block chain
06:27:40 <kmc> p. cool stuff
06:27:49 <kmc> shachaf: don't know but "non-interactive zero-knowledge proof" should be a decent search term
06:27:53 <kmc> i bet the zerocoin paper has citations too
06:27:54 <Bike> obviously snoop is on the wrong boat
06:28:36 <Bike> i think anonymously buying an album with complementary weed from snoop with zerocoin would be the most cyberpunk thing i could do in my lifetime
06:30:28 <shachaf> what's that music thing that sometimes is played at the end of some old films
06:41:59 <zzo38> In a 6502 code, is asl a asl a asl a php php ror a plp ror a plp ror a a proper way to sign-extend a number?
06:42:56 <Sgeo_> http://i.imgur.com/ZgXds9B.png
06:43:33 <Sgeo_> "Ah. I guess it's supposed to various. Unnecessary but kinda makes sense."
06:43:43 <kmc> anti-various protection
06:43:54 <shachaf> "anti-various pro" yes that
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07:04:04 <zzo38> Are there any computers (or VMs) other than VAX that have an "increment immediate" instruction?
07:07:14 <zzo38> Increments the instruction operand itself rather than whatever it points to
07:08:21 <zzo38> (Of course it won't work if the instructions are stored in ROM, but if that address is also mapped to bankswitching or something else, then it would affect that too)
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07:52:26 <kmc> ah you can also do __attribute__((noreturn)) void finish(int retval) { ...
07:53:28 <kmc> so it's like 'static' or whatever... you can do void static f(...) as well
07:53:28 <kmc> that's a bit less terrible
08:00:33 <zzo38> Do you know any cheat code for Pokemon Card GB2 to cause it to always use six side cards instead of four?
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08:07:00 <kmc> shachaf: one interesting property of ZKPs is that if you watch a recording of me convincing zzo38 i can 3-color this graph, you are still not convinced at all
08:07:04 <kmc> because we might have colluded
08:07:30 <kmc> it's a weird sort of "knowledge" which can't be transferred
08:07:33 <kmc> but non-interactive ZKPs do not have this property clearly
08:08:05 <zzo38> kmc: I noticed that just a minute ago when I looked on Wikipedia, it says something like that too.
08:10:13 <kmc> oh i didn't know that ZKPs came from the same paper which introduced the IP complexity class hierarchy
08:18:22 <shachaf> kmc: can zzo38 convince me that the ZKP was convincing without actually knowing your secret
08:23:56 <kmc> probably not
08:24:19 <kmc> maybe he can do something like a n-i ZKP but not reveal to me that this is where the bits came from
08:24:22 <kmc> and then reveal it to you later
08:25:10 <kmc> or use the hash of today's jerkcity strip or w/e
08:30:38 <zzo38> Are there any variant of zero-knowledge proof which is involving quantum entanglement?
08:32:25 <shachaf> kmc: did you see http://blog.sigfpe.com/2013/10/distributed-computing-with-alien.html
08:35:59 <kmc> interesting
08:36:21 <kmc> "If the conjecture is true it means that nature looks a bit like a conspiracy to keep computer scientists in work." yes i've wondered that
08:37:43 <Bike> full employment theorem, mexican hat functionn,
08:37:44 <kmc> perhaps the anthropic principle applies and all the universes where computer stuff is easy have already been tiled with smiley faces
08:41:53 <FireFly> I think we should query fungot for input on the topic
08:41:53 <fungot> FireFly: wrong channel to let that go.), but that was the great thing about perl is what i've done so. the dynamic analyses assume an open world, and i'll be pretty happy with araneida ( in cl parlance)? so i can just use this and skip the actual installation
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08:59:39 <kmc> `run perl -e 'print "☺" x 1024'
08:59:42 <HackEgo> ☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺☺
09:00:01 <shachaf> hm did that render for you
09:00:04 <kmc> `run ls bin | paste
09:00:07 <kmc> no (screen?)
09:00:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.27992
09:00:24 <shachaf> but it's not showing up in tmux either :'(
09:00:34 <shachaf> it's U+1F60D SMILING CAT FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES
09:01:06 <shachaf> that's just a SMILING FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES
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09:01:09 <shachaf> i was cheated out of a cat!
09:01:18 <shachaf> at least it's showing up in the logs
09:02:03 <kmc> `run echo '#!/usr/bin/perl -e' > bin/perl-e && chmod +x bin/perl-e
09:02:27 <kmc> `perl-e print "Vanilla milkshakes from Hard Rock cafes\n"
09:02:28 <HackEgo> Bareword found where operator expected at -e line 1, near "/hackenv/bin" \ (Missing operator before bin?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near "/hackenv/bin" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
09:02:48 <kmc> `which perl
09:03:36 <kmc> `run printf '#!/bin/bash\n\nperl -e "$@"\n' > bin/perl-e && chmod +x bin/perl-e
09:03:54 <kmc> `perl-e "Enlarged by nature to show true texture.\n"
09:03:59 <kmc> `perl-e print "Enlarged by nature to show true texture.\n"
09:04:00 <HackEgo> Enlarged by nature to show true texture.
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09:06:25 <kmc> `perl-e print "It's the devil's way now. You have not been " . "paying attention " x 8
09:06:26 <HackEgo> It's the devil's way now. You have not been paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention paying attention
09:07:57 <kmc> fungot: go and tell the king that the sky is falling in when it's not
09:07:57 <fungot> kmc: how so? it's not just thin syntactic sugar whereby multi could expand to ( atan z) be expanded to ( if let ( begin ( while ( vi pivot)) to ( begin ( blah...)
09:09:05 <kmc> oklopol_: are you in chile?
09:16:43 <FireFly> the sky is expanding to (atan z)!
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09:30:45 <FireFly> If you have a grammar, a string, a corresponding AST, and a change in the string (insertion/removal), and want to augment the AST by applying the change to it.. does that problem have a name?
09:31:28 <Bike> 'stuck writing Eclipse' seems like a problem to me
09:46:34 <mroman_> FireFly: http://codepad.org/98Q1bM4w
09:49:48 <mroman_> turns out the middle cell becomes 10
09:56:39 <mroman_> (Distortion does not cause other distortion now)
09:57:58 <mroman_> So one has to take distortion only into account when comparing cell values
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10:13:22 <kmc> shachaf: don't you love that a file with the name <sys/user.h> is actually something super specific "for GDB and GDB only... Don't use it for anything other than GDB"
10:15:37 <shachaf> You more or less have to use this file for ptrace.
10:19:10 <kmc> (or you can use <sys/reg.h> if you want to get them one at a time with PTRACE_PEEKUSER, but I think that's not supported on all architectures either)
10:19:15 <shachaf> then again, maybe using ptrace coutns as "you know what you are doing"
10:19:20 <kmc> i think so yes
10:19:26 <kmc> "that's why i go out of my way to use ptrace"
10:19:36 <kmc> i think there's also a polite fiction that only gdb needs to use ptrace
10:19:50 <shachaf> Well, ptrace(2) specifically mentions sys/user.h
10:19:52 <kmc> or was n years ago when that comment was written
10:20:02 <shachaf> what about strace (the best program)
10:20:15 <kmc> i wonder where I read to use reg.h
10:20:22 <kmc> if strace is so great why isn't it ltrace or lltrace
10:20:29 <kmc> or.... dtrace
10:20:42 <shachaf> or that program i never got around to writing to trace mmap accesses
10:20:50 <kmc> sorry i meant latrace not lltrace
10:21:10 <kmc> i have had the misfortune to need xtrace as well
10:21:31 <shachaf> i've either needed xtrace or not needed it and used it anyway
10:21:48 <shachaf> i've never used latrace (or heard of it) and i've barely used dtrace
10:22:20 <kmc> latrace is like ltrace but it uses LD_AUDIT to do its thing
10:22:41 <kmc> LD_AUDIT is one of those features obscure enough that the first google hit is "GNU glibc Dynamic Linker 'LD_AUDIT' Local Privilege Escalation"
10:22:55 <kmc> but it's useful for things other than writing exploits
10:23:58 <shachaf> imo write a combined {syscall,ray} tracer
10:36:37 <kmc> it will VISUALIZE the inside of the kernel
10:51:32 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/BUQd best model?
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12:13:12 <Taneb> Which is that popular language which is strong and static typed in a hideous way
12:15:38 <Taneb> One that I can say "If you're coming from ___ you may thing that strong, static typing in Haskell is scary"
12:15:46 <Taneb> Or ugly or whatever
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14:08:27 <boily> good what-happened-to-the-/topic morning!
14:10:48 <int-e> 06:29:40 <quintopia> i always thought of scheme as mostly functional
14:10:49 <int-e> 06:30:00 <Bike> it has begin.
14:12:34 <boily> makes no sense. perhaps after this kernel upgrade, I'll receive enlightenment.
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14:14:24 <ais523> well, Verity has begin (in the Algol sense)
14:14:40 <ais523> I'm not sure if it counts as functional or not, but not for that reason
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14:15:32 <fizzie> "Volume: PP, Issue: 99" I don't think these values are quite final.
14:15:38 <ais523> boily: try putting quotes around "begin", does it make more sense then?
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15:47:03 <boily> `frink 0.1 g -> dr
15:47:19 <boily> `frink 0.1 g -> gr
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16:01:57 <boily> “lens continues its plans for world-domination…” ← http://ocharles.org.uk/blog/posts/2013-12-01-24-days-of-hackage-intro.html
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16:11:22 <FireFly> Has lens grown sentinent yet?
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16:23:13 <boily> FireFly: only once every possible operator will be covered.
16:23:18 <oerjan> <FireFly> [...] does that problem have a name? <-- incremental parsing?
16:27:17 <FireFly> oerjan: that's what I tried looking for initially, but I mostly found stuff using "incremental" to mean "you feed input to the parser continuously" instead
16:27:19 <oerjan> sadly the term seems not to be used consistently.
16:27:32 <oerjan> yeah i notice that haskell package
16:27:46 <oerjan> but the yi link clearly talks about the kind you want.
16:29:27 <oerjan> http://yi-editor.blogspot.no/2008/11/incremental-parsing-in-yi.html
16:30:02 <oerjan> it would be _so_ nice if google let you copy links from its search page without revisiting them.
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16:30:58 <FireFly> That seems to be precisely what I want, yes
16:43:11 <int-e> next they will tell you that blue skies are blue
16:48:09 <int-e> mrhmouse: I count 1/4/3. that makes a lousy haiku. you should try again.
16:51:03 <oerjan> is Halite[tablet] saying he has delirium from fever
16:51:29 <boily> ~duck febentanasia
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16:51:55 <Halite[tablet]> Febenebenebenebenebenebdbennebebebebebebbebnrtanassssssiiaiaaaaaa
16:51:59 <oerjan> oh no, you infected metasepia!
16:52:30 <boily> oerjan: he did, the vile scallywag that he is. I can't make it reconnect anymore now.
16:52:43 <oerjan> int-e: ic what you did there.
16:52:44 * boily glares at Halite[tablet] “the Wrath of the Krakenoïd Bod will be Terrible!”
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16:53:49 * boily swings his usual, standardised maple bat over at Halite[tablet] *SCHMWHACK*
16:54:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastlogs: not found
16:54:24 <Halite[tablet]> Febrndnasoa, hertrmasia gens sips meeeesus geesun schmesian whesiak
16:54:43 <HackEgo> jkfficia congonop diaphing 201310 cytoian ication xirn samg gosemple affendative
16:55:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.15093
16:56:21 <Halite[tablet]> Pegendenasia olfolonsia 73, derisia mazenipooian jxjjchdhcdks do sk jci kid md me KFC kv... Zzzzzzzz
16:57:35 <FireFly> Halite[tablet]: we already have one HackEgo instance in here, we don't need another
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17:04:50 <oerjan> <boily> good what-happened-to-the-/topic morning! <-- it's a new begunning!
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17:16:43 <int-e> begin, began, begun, be gone!
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17:53:17 <boily> good quinfternoopia.
18:01:25 -!- Taneb has joined.
18:02:17 <boily> spent the weekend in Québec City. eating shrimp crackers. not enough caffeine in my body. Taneb just joined. and I can finally print! (apparently, an old and forgotten misconfiguration attempt screwed up avahi and cups.)
18:03:05 <Taneb> Are shrimp crackers like prawn crackers?
18:04:15 <^v> that time when you get a shiny new 1TB HDD and the estimated time remaining for all your crap to copy is 2 days
18:05:14 * ^v eats quintopia a potato
18:06:14 <^v> i expected a ReLcOmE
18:06:34 <^v> because, every other time ive been here i got one
18:06:41 <boily> Taneb: they were out of the usual stuff when I had a sudden urge to buy some, so I had to resign myself over shrimp crackers.
18:07:06 <boily> (they are of a generic French fries shape, and taste like shrimp, and are of the crunchy persuasion, so all is not lost.)
18:07:21 <HackEgo> ^v: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/wIkI/MaIn_pAgE>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On iRc.dAl.nEt.)
18:07:32 <^v> that exists?
18:07:36 -!- Bike has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
18:07:40 <boily> I'm as surprised as you.
18:07:44 <^v> i only thought there was relcome and WeLcOmE
18:07:46 <quintopia> ^v: but i never got one, so it's unfair for you to get so many
18:08:02 <^v> `UnRelCoMe quintopia
18:08:03 <boily> ^v: remember, this is the Land of the Chimæric Relcomes!
18:08:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: UnRelCoMe: not found
18:08:25 * boily ponders if he can mail a potato through to USPS...
18:08:54 <quintopia> boily: what's going down for christmas?
18:09:00 <^v> you can count on windows to fail at symbolic links
18:10:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | CaT
18:10:27 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ sys.stdout.write ((lambda s: "".join([(s[i].upper() if i%2==0 else s[i].lower()) for i in range(len(s)) ]))(open("/dev/stdin").read()))
18:11:11 <boily> python is the most bestest PL evaaaaaaaaaar!
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18:11:44 <boily> quintopia: the flow of the Fleuve St-Laurent. I'm disappearing in a land far, far away, where the Family Resides and the Food is Plenty.
18:12:15 <quintopia> boily: to be so far from your parents i mean
18:13:04 <boily> I only live about 250 km away from where they live, and I spend the weekend there once about every 2~3 weeks.
18:13:52 <HackEgo> bash: ^.^: command not found
18:14:16 <quintopia> more than an hour away is usually sufficient
18:14:17 <boily> quintopia: I could have moved to Toronto. that would have been far.
18:14:19 <int-e> `run ln -s /bin/cat /bin/^.^
18:14:20 <HackEgo> ln: creating symbolic link `/bin/^.^': Read-only file system
18:14:27 <boily> (there, or Ottawa. the horror!)
18:14:32 <int-e> aww, but makes sense :)
18:14:52 <quintopia> boily: you can move here. i don't care. what do you do again?
18:15:25 <boily> `run echo -e '#!/bin/sh\ncat $@' >bin/^.^
18:15:43 <boily> quintopia: free software consultant :D
18:15:50 <boily> `run chmod 0755 bin/^.^
18:16:02 <boily> int-e: the sense, it was made.
18:16:14 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/^.^: No such file or directory
18:16:19 <boily> quintopia: no, for http://www.savoirfairelinux.com//
18:16:33 <int-e> boily: I see my mistake.
18:17:42 <quintopia> fizzie: shouldn't fungot have a .^ command?
18:17:42 <fungot> quintopia: it's an irc client
18:18:11 * boily backs away very, very slowly from the Sentient Fungot
18:18:52 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/3b4TIP6.png
18:19:01 * ^v claps for windows failing at symlinks
18:19:20 <quintopia> boily: how hard do you work in a given week
18:19:22 <boily> He hasn't answered to His Name. He has spotted me. I have to flee. even Canadia won't protect me anymore.
18:20:03 <boily> quintopia: 37.5 hours.
18:20:18 <quintopia> boily: that's how much time. how hard?
18:21:12 <int-e> how do you measure that? coffee pots per hour?
18:21:17 <boily> quintopia: eh... depends on the project. sometimes you have to sprint through urgent bugs and corrections when a Demonstration looms over, but usually it's pretty smooth.
18:22:08 <quintopia> int-e: we don't need no measures. we've got _subjectivity_!
18:22:12 <boily> int-e: I'm not drinking no coffee anymore here. the thing that prepares coffee is... uhm. well. the coffee it produces is...
18:22:55 <boily> int-e: I have my own tea stash. it's much better, and during lunch we usually stop at one of the nearby cafés to grab an espresso.
18:24:03 <boily> quintopia: frozen.
18:24:06 <metasepia> CYUL 021800Z 05006KT 7SM FEW018 OVC090 M00/M02 A2995 RMK SC2AC6 SLP143
18:25:37 <boily> and speaking of chicken, I have to do a pad thai, and some hot & sour soup, and 皮蛋瘦肉粥.
18:26:50 <boily> I think I may be a little bit food obsessed...
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18:45:42 <boily> mrhmouse: http://youtu.be/CeZlih4DDNg
18:49:35 <mrhmouse> boily: I can't view YouTube at work :( Well. I _can_, but I shouldn't.
18:52:28 <boily> mwah ah ah. be Tempted by the Video. abandon productivity!
18:55:51 <boily> fungot: what is lambdabot's @src?
18:55:51 <fungot> boily: i'd get this: fnord
18:56:20 <shachaf> lambdabot: what is fungot's @src?
18:56:20 <fungot> shachaf: s/ even/ not fnord
18:57:49 <fungot> shachaf: but... you've got terminal socket. fnord". haven't got time to night though. i don't
18:58:08 <shachaf> i've got terminal socket :'(
18:58:11 <mrhmouse> shachaf, fungot doesn't have time tonight. he doesn't.
18:58:11 <fungot> mrhmouse: did you write the first two, then the window handle will be released?) not cope with unicode.
18:58:13 <shachaf> fungot: how long do i have
18:58:13 <fungot> shachaf: i wonder if that was actually the one in my box. works like a charm :)
18:58:29 <shachaf> mrhmouse: since when is fungot a "he"
18:58:29 <fungot> shachaf: i feel like i need something to take their experience into account.
18:58:48 <mrhmouse> shachaf: I just alternate gender pronouns when referring to her
18:59:14 <mrhmouse> fungot is too friendly to be called "it".. I can't bring myself to do it
18:59:15 <fungot> mrhmouse: such as? i maintain my own proxy, and i was just about to say " an action producing something of this type
19:01:35 <boily> lambdabot is a her, I think. what is fungot's sexual identity?
19:01:35 <fungot> boily: since sparc assembly is so unreadable. it basically just reads /dev/ misc/ fnord my homemade porn fnord think its nice:).
19:02:08 <boily> fizzie: your bot is dirty. most verily dirty.
19:02:28 <fungot> shachaf: it's something like 4e) and fnord ( one less map)" at the start of the file
19:02:34 <fungot> shachaf: the idea of clean fnord semantics, and occasionally do the equivalent of trick or treating though. in the end
19:02:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:02:47 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
19:02:56 <fungot> shachaf: don't i know you from somewhere? but, i mean, a male, i can be one of those people are going to think you're a pedophile, and he's on a friggin' universe. and then there'll be a day shortly afterwards when we can simulate universe on our cell, because there'd have been no controversy.
19:03:09 <mrhmouse> fungot: do you like Tom Waits?
19:03:09 <fungot> mrhmouse: t-rex, i have big news the other!
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19:44:32 <Bike> does finding a longest path in a graph take about as long as finding the shortest one?
19:45:58 <Bike> oh. no. it's np-hard. oops.
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19:46:29 <Bike> oh, but the question i got was a DAG which puts the time down to linear, baller
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20:17:09 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroflex_clicks aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
20:17:53 <boily> everything is fine here. I am not terrified by phonemes. I am sane.
20:18:15 <boily> (just entered several hundred lines of XML. my brain hurts more than my fingers, strangely.)
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20:18:49 <quintopia> i ask because i have more than i can record
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20:19:14 <quintopia> i'll describe them and let you take credit
20:19:45 <boily> anything that can take my mind off XML is good.
20:20:31 <quintopia> so this first idea is an xml-based language...
20:20:53 * boily oils and shines his mapole...
20:21:27 <boily> at least I have tea. tea is good.
20:21:41 <boily> (and an endless playlist of touhou tunes on youtube.)
20:24:25 <boily> I got the whole tlmc torrent since... uhm... 2007~8. proudly seeding ever since!
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20:26:20 <boily> and the French word of the day... «effeuilleuse», also known as “stripteaser”.
20:26:50 <boily> (their closing down the few remaining red light establishements in Montréal, and cleaning up the place. http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/immobilier/201312/02/01-4716773-un-immeuble-de-160-millions-au-coin-st-laurent-et-ste-catherine.php )
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20:28:33 <Taneb> How does the Axiom of Regularity deal with sets like {1,2}
20:29:15 <quintopia> that set only contains 1,2, not itself
20:29:45 <Taneb> quintopia, according to the Wikipedia page that is a result of Regularity, not the axiom itself
20:29:54 <Taneb> " every non-empty set A contains an element that is disjoint from A."
20:29:55 -!- b_jonas_ has changed nick to b_jonas.
20:30:48 <quintopia> Taneb: sure. the axiom of regularity is a rule for ruling out the existence of some sets, not for guaranteeing the existence of any set
20:31:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, ooh, that's cunning
20:31:16 <Taneb> Also that helps a lot
20:31:20 <Taneb> `thanks Phantom_Hoover
20:31:21 <HackEgo> Thanks, Phantom_Hoover. Thantom_Hoover.
20:31:45 <olsner> hmm, these touhou games have weird names
20:32:30 <Taneb> olsner, like "touhou" :P
20:32:58 <quintopia> boily: does that word literally translate to "defoliator"?
20:33:39 <Phantom_Hoover> this is because people who like japanese things are somehow able to put up with ridiculously awkward translations
20:33:39 <quintopia> putting strippers in the same category as agent orange=win
20:34:02 <Phantom_Hoover> yes, in the same sense that in english we have paint strippers
20:34:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, cf. Problem Sleuth?
20:35:45 <quintopia> Phantom_Hoover: agent orange isn't really a paint stripper. the french version is more awesome.
20:35:53 <olsner> Taneb: no, it seems touhou is not the name of any game, but the collective name for loads of touhou games
20:35:58 <olsner> (afaik they're all essentially the same game though)
20:36:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, http://www.mspaintadventures.com/?s=4&p=001183
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20:44:15 <Bike> to be fair, agent orange isn't orange, either.
20:45:34 <olsner> neither is mr orange, iirc
20:46:26 <quintopia> speaking of which i never got a very good answer for a symbol that reminds people of me
20:46:29 <boily> quintopia: it does :D
20:46:37 <boily> (re. the sexy efoliating.)
20:46:47 <quintopia> boily: what's a good noun to associate with me
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20:47:32 <boily> package, because I still remember the creativity and reluctance of the wrapping I received :D
20:47:52 <boily> (I mean, I had to forcefully apply my pocket knife onto the various layers of tape.)
20:48:02 <boily> I have a picture of the thing!
20:48:11 <boily> the picture, let me share you it.
20:48:16 <quintopia> boily: did you translate the back of the postcard? :D
20:48:31 <boily> not yet. I'll have it translated tonight.
20:49:05 <boily> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/2013-11-25%2017.47.53.jpg
20:50:11 <boily> I thing USPS retaped it. that's why I had some troubles with it. all the more satisfying to pry open!
20:50:25 <quintopia> but it shouldn't have been hard to unwrap. just cut enough tape to separate the lid from the box
20:53:30 <quintopia> boily: did my ziplocks stay inflated?
20:54:43 <quintopia> how about a stereotypical giftbox with a mustache for a bow
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20:57:40 <boily> quintopia: oh, that's what the ziplocs were for! I was quite puzzled.
20:58:23 <quintopia> boily: i take it that's a no. must have deflated at low pressure in the air
20:58:52 <quintopia> i was trying to keep things from sliding around and i had no bubble wrap. i didn't want the cookies to get crumby
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