←2014-01-09 2014-01-10 2014-01-11→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:33:39 <int-e> Vorpal: finished Botanicula (is trying to collect all cards worthwhile? I got 115/123)
00:34:42 <int-e> Anyway, fun little game.
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01:04:18 <int-e> Never mind, aunt Google says that 3 boxes is all. So it's just the cards themselves.
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01:41:42 <Bike> i am trying my hand at reading driver source. this may have been a mistake
01:43:24 <Bike> http://www.skbuff.net/ eg
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04:14:01 <kmc> `quote
04:14:02 <HackEgo> 50) <apollo> So... copyright doesn't really apply to God.
04:14:05 <kmc> `quote
04:14:06 <HackEgo> 306) <elliott> Top universities now employ people to watch infomercials all day to find the latest mysteries.
04:14:10 <kmc> `quote
04:14:11 <HackEgo> 564) <CakeProphet> l;le;ler;le;lr;e;ler;ler;le;lerr;le;le;erle;e;rler;lere;er;lerrelrrerererlanggt
04:14:13 <kmc> `quote
04:14:14 <HackEgo> 726) <shachaf> elliott: Apparently Rowan Williams is Primate of All England. <shachaf> CHECKMATE CREATIONISTS
04:14:16 <kmc> `quote
04:14:17 <HackEgo> 182) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
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06:42:27 <Sgeo> Rebol seems... unsafe
06:42:40 <Sgeo> In a similar way to Kernel, except possibly worse
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07:10:44 <shachaf> apparently england has a new primate
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07:15:47 <Sgeo> Someone or some animal was born there???
07:16:04 <kmc> i'm a primate
07:16:13 <shachaf> primate'
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09:01:47 <Sgeo> " We don't tell someone to take out the garbage and then they shoot the cat if you don't say "Oh... wait... I meant ONLY take out the garbage"!"
09:31:05 <b_jonas> Sgeo: what are those? they're not on the wiki
09:32:23 <Sgeo> Not sure the best URL to link for Rebol
09:32:34 <Sgeo> Kernel: http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
09:32:47 <Sgeo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebol
10:19:11 <Sgeo> "I'm submitting a patch where basically every function has /only. If you don't specify it, it will open a pop up window that plays Tetris."
10:33:54 <b_jonas> wait, so rebol isn't actually an esolang? so that's why it wasn't on the wiki!
10:35:01 <Sgeo> yes
10:35:25 <FireFly> Instead it's on the other wiki
10:45:42 <impomatic> I can't get the Rebol Core War to run :-(
10:45:59 <impomatic> ** Script Error: Invalid path value: 1 ** Where: redrag ** Near: pane/1/size: val: size - (2 * edge/size) :-(
10:48:29 <impomatic> It's here http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~pg23193/corewars/ also on Github https://github.com/paweu/rebol-corewars
11:16:29 <b_jonas> how come everyone seems to think that ioccc 8086 emulator is so amazing? I think it might be nice obfu, but it goes against the ioccc spirit because it stores important data (tables for interpreting instructions) in an aux file outside the source code, thus subverting the code size limit.
11:17:28 <olsner> hmm, can it emulate other architectures by replacing the data file?
11:17:53 <ion> DRM is preventing the Surgeon Simulator speedrun on http://de.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchivesda :-D. The video streaming device they’re using says something like “no signal” when no video output is connected. Now it says “HDCP”.
11:17:59 <b_jonas> olsner: of course it can. the data file is a bios, so as long as you can write an emulator of the other arch in x86_16, it can emulate it.
11:18:18 <b_jonas> olsner: well, all of it has to fit in less than 1M of memory obviously
11:18:31 <b_jonas> but that's easily doable
11:19:19 <olsner> a BIOS doesn't have to count against the emulator's code size, I think that's reasonable
11:20:47 <olsner> but "tables for interpreting instructions" doesn't sound like the bios
11:21:13 <b_jonas> olsner: exactly, it's not a stock bios, it emulates some of the io devices of the machine too
11:21:26 <fizzie> I got the impression that the "bios" file is still plain 8086 assembly.
11:21:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure
11:21:51 <b_jonas> most of it
11:21:52 <fizzie> So the C code is a proper 8086 CPU emulator. I don't think anyone's begrudging it for not emulating devices.
11:22:05 <b_jonas> but it also has tables for decoding the x86 instructions
11:22:09 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I've only looked at the hint file.)
11:22:10 <b_jonas> that's what the hint file claims
11:22:29 <fizzie> Oh, I see.
11:22:35 <fizzie> So there's some look-up tables in there.
11:22:41 <fizzie> I guess that's a little bit shady.
11:23:04 <b_jonas> I mean, putting support to an extra file is completely normal for such an emulator, whether in a production or in obfu, but the ioccc is about the size limit
11:23:28 <fizzie> Arguably, it's also about rule abuse.
11:23:51 <b_jonas> I think that's definitely against the rules
11:23:53 <b_jonas> let me look it up
11:24:05 <fizzie> "Legal abuse of the rules is somewhat encouraged."
11:24:09 <fizzie> That's in the rules.
11:24:40 <fizzie> I tried to look up something more explicit about the source length the other day, but I might've missed something.
11:25:00 <b_jonas> hmm
11:25:09 <b_jonas> there used to be a rule or guideline saying that the program must work without the info files
11:25:12 <b_jonas> but now I can't find it
11:25:14 <b_jonas> did they remove that?
11:26:00 <b_jonas> here:
11:26:09 <b_jonas> in the guidelines, "We really dislike entries that make blatant use of including large data files to get around the source code size limit."
11:26:53 <b_jonas> so it's not technically against the rules,
11:27:02 <b_jonas> but it's definitely discouraged in the guidelines
11:27:37 <fizzie> Well, it's a value judgement. I guess they liked it otherwise enough.
11:28:06 <fizzie> "Entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are allowed."
11:28:11 <Taneb> Today I have decided to draw
11:28:22 <Taneb> On the basis that if I never draw I will never be able to draw well
11:28:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: sure, it's not the ioccc judge's decision that is my problem
11:28:46 <b_jonas> it's other people's reaction in twitter
11:29:05 <b_jonas> who all claim "a 8086 emulator in 4000something bytes" or similar
11:30:08 <fizzie> "We prefer programs that don't require a fish license for pet fish." I wonder if/how that particular guideline has come up.
11:30:26 <b_jonas> mind you, Cable is definitely clever for fooling all those people by hiding the tables this way
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11:37:44 <fizzie> Oh, how nasty; matlab-mode in emacs (at least this version) rebinds M-; to "matlab-comment" from comment-dwim, and therefore can't be used to comment-or-uncomment-region if a region is active.
12:16:16 <int-e> this property name makes me chuckle: browser.safebrowsing.malware.enabled
12:24:24 <mroman> Who wouldn't want to enable malware.
12:26:14 <mroman> `run echo '123' | ghc -e 'main=interact$reverse'
12:26:21 <HackEgo> ​ \ <interactive>:1:5: parse error on input `='
12:26:37 <mroman> `run echo '123' | ghc -e 'interact$reverse'
12:26:42 <HackEgo> ​ \ 321
12:26:46 <mroman> k.
12:26:48 <mroman> thanks.
12:33:41 <mauke> `run echo '@REVERSE\ARG:1' | ploki - 123
12:33:42 <HackEgo> 321
13:01:03 <Taneb> Has anyone ever created an esolang in front of a live audience
13:01:52 <mroman> No.
13:02:06 <mroman> But seeing as most languages were invented in five minutes it can't be that hard to do
13:02:11 <mroman> given that you have an audience.
13:02:28 <Taneb> Like, with audience participation
13:02:41 <mroman> In fact, I'm surprised there isn't a metal-tool which can create brainfuck derivatives automatically
13:02:45 <mroman> *meta-tool
13:02:54 <mroman> and create an interpreter for it automatically too
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13:03:22 <mroman> "Automatic brainfuck derivatives construction" sounds like an awesome paper .
13:04:06 <Taneb> I may actually do this
13:05:04 <olsner> tr "$1" '.,+-[]<>'
13:06:54 <mauke> ook
13:09:10 <fizzie> Taneb: Remember to have it on video.
13:09:21 <Taneb> It will be
13:09:28 <Taneb> But it won't be for a couple of months if it happens
13:09:28 <fizzie> Taneb: Then you can post it online, and it can be a part of the wiki entry of the language.
13:10:01 <Taneb> Well, the next slot is the 20th of February
13:11:53 <boily> good breakfast morning!
13:12:44 <Taneb> Right, it looks like it is happening
13:24:45 <b_jonas> Taneb: where?
13:34:12 <Taneb> b_jonas, York
13:35:28 <b_jonas> I wonder if the audience can prepare suggestions that make your task more difficult
13:36:37 <LinearInterpol> implement it with one hand.
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14:24:16 <b_jonas> LinearInterpol: more specifically, I'd like to see suggestions that seem a good idea at first so the presenter can agree to them, but he finds out later that they're making it difficult.
14:24:28 <b_jonas> if you suggest something that's obviously hard for him, he might not agree
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14:44:55 <FireFly> http://lists.x.org/archives/xorg-announce/2014-January/002389.html hm, this sounds bad
14:45:55 <Bike> "checked in on 1991/05/10" hahaha
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14:48:32 <mrhmouse> Hurray for static code analysis...
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14:53:31 <b_jonas> has anyone defined a C++ attribute that sets the color (and font etc) of an identifier for syntax coloring?
14:55:34 <b_jonas> like, say, int frobnicate[[syntax_hilite(bold red)]](const char *foo); and then whenever anyone calls that function its name will be shown in bold red.
14:55:57 <b_jonas> if the compiler doesn't support this, then you macro syntax_hilite to expand to nothing.
14:58:50 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: wouldn't syntax highlighting a single word like that vary between editors?
14:59:28 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: yes, maybe this should specify a css-like class for syntax hiliting instead which you can match from syntax hilite rules
15:00:16 <mrhmouse> what I mean is, how would you have it work across all editors? I don't think it would be feasible.
15:00:41 <b_jonas> like, int frobnicate[[syntax_hilite(dangerous-function)]](const char *foo); and you'd have a css rule somewhere saying .dangerous-function { color: red; font-weight: bold; }
15:00:42 <FireFly> The editors would opt-in to support it I guess
15:01:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: exactly, if your editor doesn't support this you can macro it out to a noop
15:01:46 <mrhmouse> I think you'd have to expand it to a nop anyways, since the compiler really doesn't care about the text of its source code.. right?
15:02:18 <FireFly> I guess potentially the compiler could use the information for warnings/errors if it wants to
15:02:22 <mrhmouse> unless you intend for, say, debug messages to highlight that function name
15:02:51 <mrhmouse> FireFly: beat me to it :)
15:03:23 <FireFly> b_jonas: would the idea be to highlight things that are semantically related using the same colours?
15:03:53 <FireFly> As opposed to highlight based on type or syntax, like editors currently do typically
15:04:54 <mrhmouse> also, if the idea is that it's just for the editor, why not have the indicator in a comment above the method (or inline with /**/ like your current one)?
15:05:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, for warnings you have other attributes. some compilers already have attributes for marking deprecated functions, marking functions whose return value you shouldnát ignore, etc.
15:05:34 <b_jonas> if you want to combine both, define a macro that does both, like #define mydeprecated deprecated,syntax_hilite(deprecated)
15:05:46 <b_jonas> or ask the syntax hiliter to recognize and color deprecated functions
15:05:50 <mrhmouse> int frobnicate /* !syntax_highlight(danjah-danjah) */ (const char *foo) { ... }
15:05:58 <b_jonas> this would be a low-level interface to ask the syntax hiliter and only that
15:06:18 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: huh? why magic comments? we already have attribute syntax. (in fact, we have like three different attribute syntaxes.)
15:06:32 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: you can't get magic comments from the preprocessor
15:06:51 <FireFly> b_jonas: I meant for when the compiler prints out the line to which a warning/error relates
15:06:53 <b_jonas> whereas you can generate identifiers using preprocessor tricks and attach attributes to those
15:06:53 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: are attributes part of the preprocessor? I not a C++ programmer, sorry
15:07:04 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: not the preprocessor
15:07:17 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: but the preprocessor passes them through unchanged just like most code
15:07:25 <b_jonas> they're part of the compiler syntax
15:07:37 <mrhmouse> it just seems odd to me to place information about the color of text in the code.
15:07:56 <b_jonas> of course it's odd, we're in #esoteric
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15:08:03 <Bike> imo colorforth
15:08:04 <b_jonas> I don't actually like syntax hiliting at all
15:08:27 <b_jonas> I prefer plain white over black text, and have the code be clear as is
15:08:34 <b_jonas> instead of a hiliter having to parse it for me to understand
15:08:56 <b_jonas> but that's a religious debate and some people swear that syntax hiliting is a good idea
15:09:00 <mrhmouse> well, I like pretty colors because they're shiny. they don't help me parse the text at all.
15:09:55 <mrhmouse> would an attribute that describes the function be acceptable? like your CSS class idea
15:10:15 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: do you mean you like to look at the code in pretty colors, or you like to show the code to managers in pretty colors?
15:10:29 <mrhmouse> int frobnicate [[describe(dangerous)]] (const char *foo) { ... };
15:10:48 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: I don't show code to managers, I show solutions to managers
15:10:50 * FireFly would put himself in the former of those sets
15:10:57 <mrhmouse> my managers don't read code
15:11:10 <b_jonas> mrhmouse: of course, they don't read the code, they look at the pretty colors
15:11:34 <mrhmouse> b_jonas: I don't think they care about what color it is.. they don't even look at the code, is what I'm saying.
15:11:36 <b_jonas> and like I said, I'm asking about a low-level hook for coloring, not a high level one
15:11:46 <b_jonas> if you want a high level one, you could define a macro that sets the color and something else
15:12:11 <b_jonas> ok, that answers my question, so you like the pretty colors for yoruself
15:12:22 <mrhmouse> yes :) merely because they are pretty colors.
15:12:50 <mrhmouse> white text on black is also fine. (bright background hurts my eyes after a while)
15:15:48 <mrhmouse> I only suggested describing the function with an arbitrary word like that because it's close to your CSS idea but not strictly tied to the display of the text
15:16:09 <mrhmouse> you could, for instance, have it show an alert to the user or something when they write a call to some such function
15:16:38 <mrhmouse> I don't know of any low-level coloring hooks :( you can probably find something close that's specific to your editor, though
15:17:48 <b_jonas> for marking a function to warn whenever you reference it, that's what the deprecated attribute does in some compilers.
15:18:00 <b_jonas> I think you can even give a custom warning.
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15:35:21 <mroman> I prefer syntax highlighting
15:35:32 <mroman> sadly, most editors don't provide smart syntax highlighting :(
15:36:29 <mroman> Most don't highlight typedefs in C for example
15:36:47 <mroman> so int is blue, but int32_t isn't.
15:42:29 <mrhmouse> mroman: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=2646
15:42:39 <mrhmouse> if you're a vim user
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15:46:48 <olsner> mrhmouse: the c highlighting included in vim highlights builtin typedefs like int32_t already
15:49:22 <mrhmouse> olsner: does it highlight user-defined typedefs? that's what I thought mroman was referring to
15:50:16 <olsner> it's unlikely, it only does lexical analysis afaik, which means it has no idea which typedefs are defined
15:50:37 <olsner> "unlikely" ... I know that it doesn't
15:52:27 <mrhmouse> ah :) I didn't think it did, but I don't really use C beyond occasional bytebeat
16:00:39 <mroman> Yeah @userdefined typedefs
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16:12:23 <mroman> An IDE is supposed to help me.
16:12:54 <mroman> Ok. vim isn't really an IDE
16:13:04 * boily lightly mapoles mroman
16:13:14 <boily> vim is and IDE!
16:13:14 <mroman> !define mapole
16:13:20 <boily> `? mapole
16:13:22 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
16:13:31 <mroman> An IDE has auto completion, parameter hints, type info, smart syntax highlighting
16:13:40 <mroman> browsing through code by clicking on function names and stuff
16:13:48 <boily> vim has them all.
16:13:50 <mroman> otherwise I might as well use nano.
16:14:07 <mroman> And yes, nano is the crapiest editor I know
16:14:11 <mroman> maybe ed
16:14:38 <mroman> so you may replace nano with the carpiest editor you know
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16:20:16 <boily> I like ed.
16:20:32 <mrhmouse> yeah, vim has all of that (with plugins). if you don't want to learn vim, I hear emacs has a couple of features.
16:20:45 <nortti> ed is nice but a bit limited
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16:34:49 <FireFly> See, that's the thing.. probably the thing I value the most with vim (after the whole modal editor thing) is easy access to shell commands
16:35:16 <FireFly> Piping a selection through an arbitrary shell oneliner is powerful IMO
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16:47:06 <boily> FireFly: it's very powerful. that's what I do to slurp in quotes into the PDF.
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17:08:46 <nortti> http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
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17:08:59 <nortti> bah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes
17:09:09 <mroman> ??
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17:17:19 <Phantom__Hoover> mroman, needs no further explanation imo
17:19:39 <Taneb> Are there any living sexually active popes
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17:22:32 <nortti> Taneb: "There have been 266 popes. Since 1585, no pope is known to have been sexually active before, during or after election to the Papacy"
17:23:52 <Taneb> Okay
17:24:01 <Taneb> nortti, will you come to my live esolang creation
17:25:38 <Taneb> Please don't it's gonna be awful
17:27:30 <nortti> hmm, where?
17:27:34 <Taneb> York
17:27:41 <nortti> when?
17:27:53 <Taneb> TBD, probably 20th of February at 19:30
17:28:03 <nortti> most probably not
17:28:09 <Taneb> Okay
17:28:15 <Taneb> Anyway, I have an exam to get to
17:28:16 <Taneb> Goodbye!
17:28:20 <b_jonas> question. which esolangs have first-class functions with lambda-like syntax that are closure, but only nullary so they don't take arguments?
17:29:08 <mauke> I know none
17:29:34 <b_jonas> if there's none, then that toy interpreter I wrote ages ago that wasn't intended as an esolang is unique in something!
17:29:45 <b_jonas> mind you, I did intend to have functions with arguments, just never implemented it
17:30:00 <mauke> ploki doesn't have functions but they take arguments
17:30:08 <b_jonas> heh
17:30:13 <b_jonas> how does that work?
17:31:26 <mauke> there's a unary operator called @OMFG
17:31:42 <mauke> instead of evaluating its operand, it returns the expression itself
17:31:57 <mauke> it also replaces all variables in the expression by their current value
17:32:29 <mauke> the other part is the . infix operator
17:33:11 <mauke> @OMFG FOO . BAR evaluates FOO, setting the pseudo-constant \@ to the result of BAR
17:33:12 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
17:33:27 <b_jonas> wait... maybe they weren't closure in that language?
17:33:34 <b_jonas> if they weren't, I should make such a language
17:33:47 <b_jonas> trying to understnad the source code now
17:34:26 <b_jonas> where's the rule for function calling in this?
17:34:35 <mauke> hmm?
17:34:43 <b_jonas> I'm reading my own old code
17:34:48 <b_jonas> http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/geo-snapshot.tgz
17:34:50 <mauke> ah
17:35:09 <b_jonas> or maybe http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/scan-snapshot.tgz
17:35:13 <mauke> '@OMFG @foo \@' is effectively a function pointer to foo
17:35:13 <b_jonas> I always confuse the two
17:35:18 <b_jonas> but I think geo definitely had functions
17:35:36 <b_jonas> hmm...
17:35:44 <mauke> ploki only has a call instruction and labels
17:35:45 <b_jonas> maybe it doesn't?
17:35:53 <b_jonas> mauke: that's no problem
17:36:16 <b_jonas> mauke: some basic variants also only have no explicitly declared functions, only syntax to call function at a label, and a return statement
17:36:28 <b_jonas> you could say x86_* cpu does that too
17:36:51 <mauke> yeah, I was inspired by both
17:39:43 <b_jonas> scan has nullary non-closure functions
17:40:30 <b_jonas> and geo has no functions at all
17:40:43 <b_jonas> ok, this opens the place for a future esolang that has nullary closure lambda functions
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18:24:10 <everfreeq> parse this <parset> /lol
18:24:12 <everfreeq> lol
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18:24:49 <kmc> what
18:31:18 <boily> `relcome schernova
18:31:20 <HackEgo> schernova: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
18:31:26 <boily> kmc: we are Friday.
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18:48:01 <boily> k-line? and here I had `relcomed them :(
18:51:22 <kmc> look what you did
18:53:21 <boily> not my fault! it was... uhm... eh...
18:53:29 * boily points randomly over to Taneb
18:53:55 <FireFly> I didn't know a mapole could cause K-lines
18:54:12 <kmc> k-line bottles
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20:06:59 <boily> `relcome w00tles
20:07:01 <HackEgo> w00tles: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
20:11:22 <quintopia> hoily
20:11:25 <quintopia> happy friday
20:26:09 <boily> hintopia
20:26:21 <boily> happy Friday to you too. are you wearing an orange shirt?
20:26:24 <boily> ~metar CYUL
20:26:24 <metasepia> CYUL 102000Z 01006KT 10SM -SN OVC018 M06/M09 A3028 RMK SC8 SLP255
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