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00:36:58 <oerjan> <ion> oklopol: A number of people have had it not work despite other text working. <-- it worked for me yesterday when you first posted it, but it no longer does.
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01:03:25 <shachaf> broken age is great, by the way
01:03:58 <Vorpal> shachaf, oh really? Hm. But it is only the first episode isn't it?
01:04:53 <shachaf> the first episode is great. have not played the part that doesn't exist yet
01:05:14 <Vorpal> Is it going to be 2 or more episodes?
01:07:55 <shachaf> i guess the non-beta is coming out on jan 28
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01:08:53 <shachaf> "ACT 1 WILL BE AVAILABLE ON JANUARY 28TH, AND THE ACT 2 CONCLUSION WILL ARRIVE AS A FREE UPDATE LATER THIS YEAR "
01:10:23 <oerjan> `log finger.*tree.*jp.?g
01:11:16 <oerjan> `pastelogs finger.*tree
01:11:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.31614
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01:24:56 <Sgeo> What's the best Un- card?
01:26:24 <Sgeo> "Last week, I created a banned and restricted list for Unglued. Four cards were banned, and two were restricted."
01:26:34 <Sgeo> ...trying to bring sanity to Unglued. Wat.
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01:27:55 <oerjan> are you saying the idea is a little ... unhinged?
01:28:38 <zzo38> Sgeo: Which cards did you ban/restrict?
01:28:51 <Sgeo> I didn't, I'm reading an article by someone else
01:29:02 <Sgeo> http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/multiplayer/7489_Bringing_Unglued_Into_Your_Casual_Game_8212_Part_I.html
01:29:07 <zzo38> And which ones (if any) are banned in Limited too? (Normally no cards are banned/restricted in Limited, but sometimes there are some)
01:29:28 <zzo38> (such as cards dealing with ante are sometimes banned)
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01:31:17 <Sgeo> zzo38: all Unglued and Unhinged cards are not allowed in any format
01:31:38 <Sgeo> Except the basic lands
01:32:04 <zzo38> Sgeo: I know, but if you are allowing them in your own format, then you have to also specify what is allowed if playing Limited, too.
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01:55:14 <Sgeo> How do I manage to read a bunch of Sliver cards yet still at one point think it says Silver?
02:00:53 <oerjan> Sgeo: it's because of the hypnotic treatment you got to forget that your family's real surname is Glod.
02:18:40 <Gregor> Anybody know/remember in which version Minecraft switched to using an ad-hoc server in single-player mode?
02:22:15 <oerjan> FreeFull: okay. i'm still only up to Eric + The Last Continent.
02:23:03 <oerjan> Gregor: i vaguely thought everything in Minecraft was ad hoc.
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02:24:48 <Gregor> oerjan: lul, that's true, but in older versions there didn't happen to be an ad-hoc SERVER for single-player play ;)
02:25:47 * oerjan shall assume the u in lul is for "unreasonably"
02:28:45 <zzo38> Do you ever dream about new games that don't actually exist?
02:28:59 <zzo38> (Or at least, as far as you know it doesn't exist)
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02:42:46 <ais523> oerjan: I misread that as "unnecessary", then was about to complain that it had to be a preposition or an adverb
02:42:48 <FreeFull> I haven't, but it sounds like a normal thing to dream about
02:42:53 <ais523> luckily I read it again before complaining
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03:26:33 <zzo38> I have dream twice like that I can remember, once the first computer game ever invented which was an implementation of a card game called "One Draw", and once of a chess variant with some really strange properties.
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03:35:04 <Sgeo> o.O a deck without basic lands
03:35:11 <Sgeo> I mean, it has lands, but... just a bit surprised
03:35:34 <ais523> Sgeo: that's really common in Legacy
03:35:49 <Sgeo> I think this is Standard?
03:35:52 <Sgeo> http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bug-flash-18-01-14-1/
03:35:56 <ais523> to the extent that some people started sideboarding Path to Exile on the assumption that the opponent probably wouldn't be able to play it
03:36:07 <ais523> oh, in Standard, it's rare, but doable if you're playing three colors
03:37:56 <Sgeo> Grr Gatherer doesn't play nice with Chrome's search engine bar
03:38:11 <Sgeo> magiccards.info does but can't see player discussion like that
03:42:26 <Sgeo> What's an "RDW" player?
03:42:35 <Sgeo> "Also, im guessing you never had to go up against a RDW with Burning Earth? :P"
03:43:10 <ais523> RDW = Red Deck Wins = play cheap red cards only, attack with the most efficient cheap creatures available even if they have crazy drawbacks, finish off with burn
03:43:25 <ais523> you can aim the burn at the opposing creatures for a bit too, if it helps you get through for more damage on the ground
03:43:42 <ais523> but the deck /will/ be overwhelmed if it hasn't won by like turn 6 or 7
03:44:00 <Sgeo> Is there a reason a non-RDW wouldn't want to use Burning Earth against the no-basic-lands deck?
03:44:40 <ais523> well, Burning Earth's designed as a nonbasic land hoser, so it's pretty good against any no-basic-lands deck
03:44:47 <ais523> but it's best in highly aggressive decks
03:44:59 <shachaf> i was told that burning earth is generally considered the scow of enchantments
03:46:09 <shachaf> as in one of the worst, almost never worth using
03:46:56 <Sgeo> Makes sense if there are a lot of people using nonbasic lands, to at least have it in the sideboard
03:47:09 <Sgeo> I think. Then again, I'm not an expert Magic player
03:47:21 <Sgeo> I think.... I have misplaced a lot of physical cards
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03:47:30 <ais523> basically what happened is that Wizards like each Standard environment to be different from the one before
03:47:34 <ais523> Ravnica block was all about playing lots of colors
03:47:50 <ais523> so they added a bunch of multicolor deck hosers in M14, like Burning Earth, which were played a bit
03:48:10 <shachaf> Ravnica is distinct from Return to Ravnica here, right?
03:48:13 <ais523> then made monocolored decks really powerful in Theros by adding powerful devotion cards
03:48:13 <Sgeo> Multicolor decks generally use nonbasic lands? I guess that makes sense
03:48:20 <ais523> shachaf: I meant RtR, we're talking about standard
03:48:30 <ais523> anyway, because most of the best decks are monocolored
03:48:45 <ais523> pretty much all the lands are either basics or Nykthos
03:48:53 <ais523> with the occasional Mutavault
03:49:16 <zzo38> Maybe in Constructed they are, but in Limited would it be the case that best decks would be multicolored?
03:49:21 <ais523> and Burning Earth doesn't hose Nykthos very effectively
03:49:51 <ais523> zzo38: two colors is common in Limited, occasionally three, but the issue doesn't come up because there aren't any dual lands in M14, and people don't do M14+Theros limited
03:50:21 <Sgeo> So in the future, Burning Earth could make a resurgence?
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03:51:16 <zzo38> ais523: But what if someone will make up a M14+Theros limited game?
03:51:35 <ais523> zzo38: it's not played often enough for me to have any data on whether Burning Earth is any good in that format, but my guess is still no
03:51:43 <ais523> Sgeo: probably not unless it's reprinted
03:51:52 <ais523> if it's in M15, possibly
03:52:13 <ais523> but its best chance for staying around was in Innistrad/RtR/M14, where it was used a bit, but that format didn't last long
03:52:28 <Sgeo> If I make a Magic Online account, get a bunch of cards with the account, but don't play for a few years, does the account become worth less than a new account
03:53:01 <Sgeo> I actually have an old account that I lost the password to, I think I should make a new account instead of bothering with customer service
03:53:11 <ais523> I'm not sure if you're allowed multiple accounts
03:53:40 <ais523> also, the older cards might or might not have become more valuable, although they're probably less valuable if they're a) not Standard-legal, and b) not good in the formats they are legal in
03:54:14 <Sgeo> Actually, might have two accounts, a friend gifted me one but I never took interest, and I think I made a different one on my own
03:57:47 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366411
03:58:00 <Sgeo> How... does someone ever manage to play this?
03:58:46 <shachaf> there are lots of ways of getting lots of mana
03:59:15 <ais523> it's played all the time in Legacy, normally using Omniscience: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=288937
03:59:31 <ais523> let's use a 10-mana card to play a 12-mana card
03:59:43 <shachaf> someone might play a Zhur-Taa Ancient, for instance
03:59:44 <ais523> Omniscience is normally played using Show and Tell or Dream Halls
04:00:59 <shachaf> the other day i was playing a game and someone played Mind Grind with X=21
04:01:03 <ais523> the deck normally wins around turn 3 or 4 and is very difficult to top
04:01:28 <shachaf> using a bunch of Axebane Guardians
04:03:03 <ais523> if a game of Magic reaches the 21-mana stage, then either a) it's multiplayer; b) a control player is winning; or c) someone is playing a lot of ramp
04:06:41 <shachaf> there was also a progenitor mimic involved
04:06:55 <zzo38> In the 6502 machine code, even the TXA and TYA instructions affect the zero flag; therefore you can use this as one way to compare the X/Y register with zero if the A register is not going to be used.
04:07:34 <quintopia> ais523: i had an idea more esolang than MtG and i wondered what you would think
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04:08:10 <zzo38> quintopia: Show it to here; let's see maybe I might want to see it too
04:08:42 <quintopia> okay i was thinking, imagine a binary "ring"
04:09:16 <ais523> what do you mean by a binary ring? circular queue made of bits?
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04:09:56 <quintopia> okay, so it's kinda like Self BCT maybe, or maybe like one of wolfram's 1d automata
04:10:18 <quintopia> and if the first bit was 1, insert the SHA-1 of the deleted bits at the end
04:10:56 <ais523> that's one of those languages which would be nightmarish to prove TC or otherwise
04:11:07 <quintopia> think it could do anything interesting? think it could be gamed into behaving predictably
04:12:38 <quintopia> i wish i knew more about what was known about SHA
04:12:47 <ais523> how many bits is an SHA-1?
04:13:00 <ais523> I don't think you'd get very far without being able to reverse hashes
04:13:12 <ais523> arbitrary hashes, not the Google-reversible ones
04:14:11 <quintopia> the idea was that for a random bit string, we should expect it to remain about the same size
04:14:28 <quintopia> since about half the time you push back twice as many bits
04:15:15 <ais523> it'd obviously be sub-TC if you always took 160
04:15:28 <ais523> because then you only have finite storage because the different 160-bit blocks can't interact with each other
04:15:39 <ais523> with 80, though, they can, because you get the last half of one and the first half of the next
04:17:00 <quintopia> well i don't know if reversible hashes would be necessary. the first bit might be predictable somehow
04:17:41 <ais523> no, the entire point is that none of the bits are predictable, as far as cryptographers know, and it was intentionally designed with that property
04:20:03 <quintopia> hmm. well, have they proved that it doesn't contain hash loops?
04:21:08 <ais523> well, all hashing systems contain hash loops /eventually/
04:21:18 <ais523> but finding a short one is meant to be pretty much impossible
04:27:53 <oerjan> so there is no known SHA-1 quine?
04:29:47 <shachaf> a known fixed point for a cryptographic hash function would be p. suspect imo
04:37:49 <oerjan> apparently http://stackoverflow.com/a/235910/1088108 applies, it's about 67% probability a random function (which one would hope any hash function is in spirit) has fixed points. which does not help finding them.
04:39:16 <oerjan> some comment further down said 67% wrongly and my brain remembered the wrong one.
04:39:53 <shachaf> is there a card that discourages your opponent from jamming up their creatures?
04:41:38 <shachaf> "whenever an opponent puts a +1/+1 counter on a creature, ... deals 1 damage to that opponent" or something like that, i don't know
04:42:16 <zzo38> Or else, causes all power/toughness counter to be reversed???
04:42:55 <shachaf> that would also discourage an opponent from using jams
04:50:58 <quintopia> oerjan: hmm i'm blanking on how to calculate the probability of an oscillation hash of length two
04:52:01 <quintopia> ais523: is it possible to prove something is Turing-complete without actually knowing how to construct any useful programs whatsoever in it?
04:52:24 <ais523> quintopia: not sure; I can't think of a way to do that but it isn't obviously impossible
04:52:54 <ais523> barring a language where you can prove that a program that does X exists, but be unable to write it down due to trapdoor functions or the like
04:53:28 <quintopia> hardly a general technique/theorem
04:56:16 <shachaf> oerjan: are you also an expert in synthetic topology
04:59:42 <quintopia> ais523: do you think that, unless such techniques are known, it would be safe to say that proving this language TC is intractable?
04:59:52 <shachaf> for example why are these things called "synthetic"
05:01:31 <ais523> quintopia: yep, I wouldn't say it's necessarily impossible, but I'd say there's no known way to go about even starting to prove it TC
05:02:32 <quintopia> ais523: have you ever had any ideas for a proof of Self BCT?
05:04:39 <ais523> no, I haven't really looked at it though
05:04:41 <quintopia> tbh, i only came up with this idea so that i could have a language called "SHAring is CAring". it turns out to be far more intellectually stimulating that i would have hoped.
05:06:29 <oerjan> quintopia: you mean period 2?
05:07:01 <Sgeo> Neither Netflix nor Amazon Instant Video have Early Edition to stream :(
05:08:54 <quintopia> hey does anyone know if netflix has decided to support streaming to linux yet
05:09:10 <Sgeo> quintopia: nope (re hulu)
05:09:24 <Sgeo> Is Early Edition a good show?
05:09:51 <shachaf> if i remember correctly it has a neat premise but is p. repetitive
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05:10:31 <shachaf> also i think a lot of the episodes are on youtube or something like that? i don't remember
05:10:36 <Sgeo> I think I've seen one episode many many years ago, going to rewatch it
05:10:43 <Sgeo> Oh, actually, two episodes
05:17:50 <Sgeo> I'm enjoying this, but do not recognize this (the beginning) at all
05:19:06 <quintopia> i remember it being good. didn't it use to air after touched by an angel
05:19:41 <quintopia> Sgeo: if you want an awesome show to watch that was (last time i watched it) on hulu, try Regenesis
05:20:35 <Sgeo> Remind me tomorrow
05:20:45 <Sgeo> Or... I need some kind of list to list things I want to watch
05:21:13 <quintopia> best add that to your list of lists to make
05:22:43 <Sgeo> Ok, now I recognize the episode
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05:42:15 <zzo38> Watch Kaiji (based on the manga by Fukumoto); I think that TV show is really good
05:45:59 <zzo38> I have read about some programming language where you can call a subroutine multiple times if you put semicolons, such as print(a,b;c,1); being same as print(a,b); print(c,1); Do you know what ones have such thing? I don't really know, but I read something about it in some book.
05:51:20 <zzo38> Why don't they have a "memstr" function in C?
05:52:10 <Sgeo> A bit too powers-that-be-sy
05:52:56 <Sgeo> Also, once it's obvious what's going on, it's not obvious that there's any sort of limit. Except they put a trailer at the END of the episode, which gives a 3 chances limit, but... um... what.
06:00:22 <Sgeo> It makes me uneasy that Magic is so... centralized
06:00:32 <Sgeo> Even though... really, what else would I expect?
06:01:45 <Sgeo> https://31.media.tumblr.com/9d0510a3f9e9c0145ca98c5b76f3fca9/tumblr_inline_mzi6i3IoDp1ricn74.jpg
06:02:10 <Sgeo> I read about Slivers when I was a kid, but... it just didn't occur to me that their abilities would mix
06:02:19 <Sgeo> As in, between both opponents having slivers
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06:20:15 <Sgeo> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=376562
06:21:42 <Sgeo> Seems a bit powerful
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06:45:23 <Sgeo> I'm addicted to a comic that considers a game addicting
06:45:41 <ais523> <DaLuacaray> the price for this thing right now is hovering at around 40$. Y'know, about the same as the 100-card precon he comes in. Seriously, people.
06:49:17 <ais523> the only reason it hasn't completely broken Legacy in half is that it costs 3 and is weak to combo because it only does 3 damage per turn and the combo deck wasn't planning on blocking or removing it anyway
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06:54:30 <ais523> wow, it's currently selling for $50 when the deck it comes in costs $30 (and has, obviously, sold out)
07:00:56 <Sgeo> http://cardboard-crack.com/post/61266596221
07:01:31 <Sgeo> If the rules for each card can be programmed in, would brute-force be... well, no, it wouldn't be able to look at opponents library
07:06:46 <ais523> way too many possibilties, too, even in one-set block / one-set limited
07:07:55 <shachaf> what if it gained protection from one target opponent but then lost protection from another target opponent
07:08:05 <shachaf> so it would only be useful with more than one opponent
07:13:06 <zzo38> I am writing a program and I want to find a RAM signature in a quick save state file created by a NES/Famicom emulator. What is the best way to make such a search through the file?
07:15:13 <ais523> scan through memory, if you find a character that in't anywhere in the signature move forwards by the length of the signature, if you find a character that is in the signature but not the first move forwards by the number of characters that character is from the end of the signature, if you find the first character of the signature do a memcmp
07:16:15 <ais523> to see if the others match
07:16:22 <ais523> that's how fgrep works, IIRC
07:16:41 <ais523> it'd be a good algorithm to use for a hypothetical memmem function, too
07:17:26 <zzo38> The signature is five null bytes followed by "AARON.BLACK" although I could change it if it is necessary. Note that the signature does not occur in the ROM on purpose (in case the emulator saves the ROM too for some reason).
07:17:33 <pikhq> It is a shame there's not a memmem, yeah.
07:18:21 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, as well as "memmem" I also wanted "memdup" and a few other things
07:18:40 <pikhq> memdup's pretty trivial though.
07:18:58 <zzo38> Yes, it can easily be implemented.
07:19:22 <zzo38> Still, it would be useful to have like strdup is.
07:19:32 <pikhq> void *memdup(const void *s, size_t n) { void *x=malloc(n);if(!x)return x;memcpy(x,s,n);return x;}
07:19:44 <pikhq> I definitely agree it's a (moderately) useful function.
07:20:44 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I would do something like that to implement it, if I want to implement it.
07:21:13 <shachaf> I,I if (x)memcpy(x,s,n);return x;
07:21:22 <pikhq> Yeah, that's slightly simpler.
07:21:32 <ais523> pikhq: "if (!x) return x"?
07:21:45 <ais523> I'd write return NULL there, it's harder to follow the control flow otherwise
07:21:52 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it is better
07:22:01 <pikhq> return x?memcpy(x,s,n):x; :)
07:22:15 <ais523> like, why are you using a variable that's always NULL (forcing the reader to check it's always NULL), than just saying NULL (or 0 if you're golfing)
07:22:33 <pikhq> ais523: No reason at all, I agree it's cleaner that way.
07:24:00 <pikhq> void*memdup(const void*s,size_t n){void *x;return x=malloc(n)?memcpy(x,s,n):0;} // If we're gonna golf.
07:25:16 <shachaf> what if there were multiple NULLs that were indistinguishable to you
07:25:28 <pikhq> Then we're not talking C.
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07:26:18 <pikhq> You could as reasonably ask "what if there were multiple 1s"
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07:26:34 <shachaf> and also if c had, like, parametricity
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07:34:47 <shachaf> ais523: Well, those are just different ways of writing the same number.
07:35:23 <ais523> I was reading the Wikipedia archive a while back of the page where they moved all the arguments from people trying to claim they were different
07:35:41 <shachaf> But "what if there were multiple numbers d such that d^2 = 0" is more interesting
07:36:21 <zzo38> 1 and 0.999... are equal, even if they are different numbers somehow.
07:36:21 <ais523> shachaf: there's actually a common counterexample in topology
07:36:28 <ais523> which is identical to the reals except it has two different zeros
07:36:57 <shachaf> i was thinking of e.g. http://math.andrej.com/2008/08/13/intuitionistic-mathematics-for-physics/
07:37:16 <zzo38> IEEE 754 doesn't include all the reals, though, isn't it?
07:37:33 <shachaf> Maybe I should read _Counterexamples in Topology_! I heard that's a good book to read.
07:38:31 <ais523> anyway, it's really badly behaved, e.g. you can't always take limits because if the limit is 0, you have two equally good options
07:38:51 <shachaf> I I vaguely remember reading about that space.
07:42:01 <ais523> yes but I can't remember what it is
07:42:43 <shachaf> Maybe I'm thinking of the example in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_space#Disconnected_spaces
07:45:15 <pikhq> zzo38: Nor do the reals include all the IEEE 754 values.
07:45:48 <pikhq> I'm pretty certain that NaN is not a real.
07:45:54 <shachaf> "inclusion" is a funny concept
07:48:51 <shachaf> "inclusion" makes no sense in this context at all, actually
07:51:49 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that too, clearly.
07:52:17 <shachaf> if it's not a real why isn't it called NaR
07:52:36 <ais523> all reals are numbers, so NaN is a stronger statement
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08:49:18 <zzo38> How common is it to use instructions like TAX/TAY/TXA/TYA in a 6502 code only for adjusting the zero flag?
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10:07:10 <oklopol> ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:ConMan/Proof_that_0.999..._does_not_equal_1 ?
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10:12:00 <nooodl> oklopol: wow this page
10:12:11 <nooodl> it's such a trainwreck but i can't look away
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10:14:05 <nooodl> "Now, if we raise both sides to ∞,"
10:14:30 <oklopol> Logic and Mathmatical Induction[edit]
10:14:30 <oklopol> So, this is a proof against the .999... = 1 proof. It has to do with the identity of infinity, and that infinity is not always equal to infinity (no matter what they tell you).
10:15:21 <nooodl> "if any of you had any sort of real intelligence you would see that not only does .999... not equal to 1, but that there are no such things as fractions of any sort in reality,"
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10:19:12 <nooodl> Wikipedia would like you to believe that what they publish is mainstream mathematics. This is false. Wikipedia's math articles are the ideas of the core editing group. One should never believe anything. Nor should one trust any source.
10:21:40 <nooodl> Not only is 0.999... NOT equal to 1, but every academic has no idea what is a number. [...] Warning: Delete this post or move it to the end of your talk page and I will not share any more of my knowledge with you.
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10:28:01 <shachaf> Academics claim that every set has as a subset, the empty set. If {} is the empty set, then what sense does the set {{}} make? Answer: Nonsense. The object {{}} contains the empty set as a *subset* and also as an *element* Confused? I am not surprised. Of couse this makes perfect sense to academic ignoramuses who thing they can just *define* concepts without careful thought.
10:28:35 <shachaf> https://www.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=8b6966895b6673aa6b6c is like the time cube of 0.999...
10:29:14 <shachaf> 4 simultaneous days in 0.999... 24-hour rotations
10:29:27 <fizzie> I managed to close the page, but it didn't help, because all the worst parts keep spilling over to the channel.
10:31:56 <shachaf> "Consider nominating me for the Abel prize in mathematics. Winner is announced every year on March 31st. I am the discoverer of the first rigorous formulation of calculus in history. Given that hundreds, if not thousands of academics, tried unsuccessfully to formulate a rigorous calculus before me, the New Calculus is a historic and monumental achievement."
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10:53:09 <oklopol> the https://www.filesanywhere.com/fs/v.aspx?v=8b6966895b6673aa6b6c missed a pretty important detail in the definition of the Dedekind cut
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11:14:07 <FreeFull> nooodl: "fractions don't exist" is a pretty bold claim
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11:30:42 <Slereah_> GOD ONLY MADE INTEGERS FREEFULL
11:40:17 <b_jonas> no, god only made algebraic data types
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17:32:41 <copumpkin> int-e: did you ever continue work on that GHC closure serializer? I never took mine any further
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17:49:53 <int-e> I've learned about this related work in the meantime: http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.2017
17:57:45 <copumpkin> I'm still more interesting in the serialization aspect myself
18:01:28 <int-e> It's yet another doodle to revive. I have too many of those.
18:05:04 <int-e> Yes, that's firmly in the "useless, but fun" category.
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18:33:11 <fizzie> I've shared the others here too, so here's the latest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEiHZQw_2Qk
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19:10:16 <Sgeo> How much money did I just cause The Onion to get?
19:10:47 <Sgeo> There was a slideshow, "187 Images, Which, If Rapidly Clicked Through, Will Create The Illusion Of Motion", which I just clicked through all of them
19:10:52 <Sgeo> The animation itself was boring
19:10:58 <b_jonas> ah, the zeckendorf numbers!
19:11:21 <Bike> Sgeo: one hundred eighty seven billionths of a cent
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19:18:44 <ion> http://imgur.com/a/F7AcL
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20:06:41 <tswett> So. Haskell models of linear logic.
20:07:17 <tswett> I shall express my (ever-diminishing) confusion by using upside-down question marks.
20:07:29 <tswett> ¿How the heck does this stuff work?
20:10:25 <tswett> So the fundamental unit here is... let's call it a function, why not. The type of a function is a sequent, which consists of zero or more terms.
20:11:34 <tswett> If you have two sequents, one containing a term and the other containing the dual of that term, you can cut the two sequents together to form a new sequent containing all the terms of both sequents, with those two terms removed.
20:12:01 <tswett> So you can cut the sequent A, B, ~C with the sequent ~A, D, ~E to get the sequent B, ~C, D, ~E. Easy.
20:12:37 <tswett> And then program flow and parameters and return points and efsdalkj.
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20:28:11 <Sgeo> If someone came across an unopened Alpha booster, would it be better to open it to see if there are any very valuable cards, or leave it unopened to sell?
20:28:27 <tswett> I'd say almost definitely leave it unopened.
20:29:26 <shachaf> Weren't they somewhat transparent at that point so that you could look through the wrapper or something?
20:31:32 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0p4mRfLmCk
20:31:36 <tswett> An unopened pack can later be opened; an opened pack cannot later be unopened. So an unopened pack has at least as much expected value as an opened pack, plus extra value if they're significantly rarer than the equivalent cards.
20:31:41 <Sgeo> I guess that's somewhat anecdotal though
20:32:01 <tswett> In Haskell, return points cannot be duplicated or discarded: each function must return exactly once. They are not reified, however. You can't pass a return point into another function and have that function return on your behalf.
20:32:19 <Sgeo> tswett: is Paws relevent at all?
20:32:48 <Sgeo> http://paws.mu/
20:32:53 <Sgeo> Um, need to find better website
20:33:50 <Sgeo> Ah, this sucks
20:33:51 <Sgeo> "If you’re interested in Paws, you should join the IRC channel. There’s no coherent documentation on the underlying paradigm online; we’ve tried several times to compile such, and had no luck. It’s quite difficult to explain without an example interpreter to point people to, even on a one-on-basis; nearly impossible to do so with no example implementation and in a generalized anybody-who-reads-this form. (Yes, we know this situation
20:34:54 <Sgeo> https://github.com/Paws/Paws.js might be better?
20:36:40 <pikhq> Unopened Alpha packs are actually worth rather a lot more than the expected value of the contents, no?
20:37:22 <Sgeo> Considering the transparency thing, how does that effect the expected value?
20:37:46 <tswett> I'd say it doesn't. If you can see through the package, potential buyers can see through it, too.
20:38:27 <pikhq> Wouldn't any such transparency thing, given how the packs are laid out, only really let you see the commons?
20:38:39 <tswett> An especially rare Alpha card is really valuable, right? I'd expect an unopened Alpha pack that visibly contains an especially rare Alpha card to be way, way more valuable still.
20:39:18 <pikhq> (note that most of the Alpha commons are actually not worth much -- like, a couple bucks.)
20:40:28 <pikhq> Yes, especially rare Alpha cards go all the way up to $6k.
20:41:25 <Sgeo> I had a Portal book, not sure what happened to it
20:41:32 <Sgeo> Don't think I actually had any Portal cards
20:41:56 <pikhq> Of course, a decent cause of the cost of Alpha cards is that some of the more powerful ones were only printed in Alpha, Beta, and Unlimited.
20:42:53 <pikhq> There aren't any Revised Black Lotus out there, for instance.
20:43:16 <tswett> I'd think there must be a lot of counterfeit cards out there.
20:43:55 <zzo38> How balanced is it if a variant of Black Lotus that uses untap and sacrifice instead of tap and sacrifice to activate?
20:45:33 <pikhq> tswett: I imagine, though that's counterbalanced to some extent by the fact that there's a known (very small) quantity of some of these cards.
20:45:41 <pikhq> There exist 22,800 Black Lotuses.
20:46:19 <pikhq> It's just too small for a decent print run. Though, even a 1-off run has insane profit margines.
20:46:35 <Sgeo> Does Magic Online support un-cards?
20:47:07 <tswett> Heading out. See y'alls.
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20:48:12 <pikhq> There's also the issue that those cards are almost never seen in unplayed condition.
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20:52:25 <Sgeo> "1. Ass Whuppin'
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 2. Sleight of Mind "silver" to "black"
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 3. Stand up so you can see the entire room
20:52:25 <Sgeo> 4. Play Radiate
20:52:25 <Sgeo> Excuse me everyone, all of your permanents are destroyed."
20:54:40 <Sgeo> "@Mr. Wumples: Not good enough. I want to make everyone in the room lose their game. No matter which game they're playing. "Hey you guys, playing Scrabble? You all lost. Oh hey, 3.5 group? Excuse me? Your entire party just died. Yup. Sorry." Surely there must be a combo that can let me do that. Maybe in the next Un set?"
20:57:13 <zzo38> I once wrote some Un-card that everybody *win* the game, even news reporters who have never played and don't know how.
21:00:00 <zzo38> If your entire party just died I don't think that is necessarily a loss. And if you are playing Scrabble and all lost, well you still need to count the points!
21:24:28 <Bike> how would you lose your whole party and not have it be a loss
21:29:42 <quintopia> here you go: https://github.com/branan/cruller
21:30:17 <zzo38> Bike: In case you have already succeeded at the goal.
21:30:33 <zzo38> (Of course, the goal might include not dying, but it might not.)
21:31:33 <Bike> in my campaigns the only goal is friendship.
21:31:54 <quintopia> what if you have a campaign where the goal is to get everyone dead
21:34:27 <zzo38> quintopia: Such a thing is unlikely, but I suppose if that is the goal, then dying yourself would be the last step in completing it!
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21:35:54 <kmc> how about a campaign where everyone's goal is to be eaten first
21:36:07 <pikhq> That would be Call of Cthulhu.
21:39:54 <zzo38> I suppose you can tie at that.
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21:47:51 <zzo38> You could even have different people having different goals, too
21:49:55 <zzo38> Which might depend on your level, affiliations (with various churches, guilds, or Aberration Saver or Harper or International Astronomical Conspiracy or whatever), position relative to other player characters, and such thing may also affect how much of "lesser win" something is, and whether dying is still allowed to complete the goal or not, etc
21:52:46 * int-e goes reread the story of Old Man Henderson.
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21:53:53 <Bike> i just make everyone play the wall campaign
21:54:00 <Bike> oddly, friendships are usually lacking
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22:01:52 <Sgeo> Listening to a song I've associated with "Kernel Lisp is the best language!" even while preparing a criticism of Kernel Lisp
22:02:45 <Bike> that is a nerdassed association
22:03:43 <b_jonas> what the heck is kernel lisp?
22:04:55 <elliott> kernel lisp, scheme lisp, clojure lisp
22:04:55 <Bike> no static types, so worthless
22:05:21 <Sgeo> http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html
22:05:43 <Sgeo> elliott: Kernel is such a sucky name that I have to change it to something else. klisp is tempting, but that's just the name of a particular implementation
22:06:00 <elliott> I didn't realise shutt had given ownership of kernel over to you
22:06:10 <Bike> Sgeo Lisp Enterprise Edition
22:06:40 <Bike> what's a word to put on the end with 'p'?
22:10:19 <Sgeo> I don't think that makes much sense here, but still
22:10:44 <Sgeo> 'p' and lisp makes me think of abominations like zerop
22:11:57 <int-e> I wonder whether EE goes together with Professional :)
22:12:46 <int-e> ("not only do we mean business, no, we believe we're good at it, too")
22:12:49 <Bike> when i think 'abomination' i imagine a wizard saying something very stern to a dark sorceress, rather than zerop
22:12:51 <olsner> Enterprise Edition for Professionals?
22:12:55 <b_jonas> I think I heared about that
22:17:43 <Sgeo> Where did I put my copy of klisp? :(
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22:43:27 <oerjan> <fizzie> I managed to close the page, but it didn't help, because all the worst parts keep spilling over to the channel. <-- word.
22:51:54 <Sgeo> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/klisp/g9tHOOfGYJU/xZOq4ctDLEIJ
22:53:37 <HackEgo> [U+2E2E REVERSED QUESTION MARK]
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22:54:31 <kmc> is there a reversed upside down question mark
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22:57:04 <Sgeo> kmc: any thoughts on my post?
22:57:13 <Sgeo> Also, I am not at all happy about how closed off that group is
23:03:30 <kmc> `unidecode ﺫ
23:03:32 <HackEgo> [U+FEAB ARABIC LETTER THAL ISOLATED FORM]
23:04:07 <kmc> `unidecode 뻯
23:04:08 <HackEgo> [U+BEEF HANGUL SYLLABLE BBEGS]
23:05:17 <Sgeo> quintopia: there's a NetHack thing for unique deaths, I think
23:07:42 <ais523> unique deaths competitions are common in tournamnts
23:08:36 <Sgeo> Wonder if that's easier than ascending
23:09:09 <Sgeo> I mean, I know some deaths are more late-game, like the ones for negative controlled level teleports
23:10:15 <ais523> that one's pretty early
23:10:23 <ais523> there are some deaths only possible on Astral, those are late-game
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23:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Sgeo> 'p' and lisp makes me think of abominations like zerop
23:34:41 <Phantom_Hoover> lisp is actually the predicate to determine whether something is lis
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