00:02:20 <Sgeo> http://rifers.org/03_numberguess/src/
00:02:37 <Sgeo> Exactly what I want to see when I click to browse example source code for a web framework
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00:22:12 <Sgeo> It's trying to translate a cool concept to an enterprisey language
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01:05:33 <oerjan> scott aaronson sarcasts on science journalism (scroll to the MAGIC 8-BALL) http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1679
01:21:00 <Bike> funnily enough i saw him extensively quoted in some pop sci today
01:21:31 <Taneb> Help I am game programming in Haskell
01:21:32 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/99581
01:21:38 <Bike> fizzie: i've been watching the status of parallel matlab jobs through windows task manager.
01:22:06 <oerjan> Bike: well he was quoted in the thing he's blogging about, too
01:23:08 <Bike> the one i read was a basic "holy shit, halting problem!" thing
01:23:58 <Taneb> just noticed I've been writing my lambdas backwards
01:24:28 <Bike> what was the end quote. something like "it's good to know electronic brains can't be perfect"
01:25:10 <nooodl> Taneb: what's with the "fmap Right"s
01:26:05 <Taneb> nooodl, in theory I could instead do a Left thingy which would be treated as a sort of "missing value" error by netwire
01:32:41 <shachaf> kmc: i should figure out how people solve yao's millionaire problem
01:48:03 <Sgeo> "Smokers will need to fetch an older copy of cigarettes.txt from CVS after October 1st "
01:48:20 <kmc> oh i get it
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02:21:23 <coppro> elliott__: you're no help
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02:57:09 <Sgeo> data Stream b = SCons (b, Stream b)
02:57:28 <Sgeo> Rather than two arguments to SCons?
03:02:41 <Sgeo> Ok, fine, makes sense
03:16:16 <Sgeo> "Note that this has nothing to do with execution. printFibN does not execute a print statement. No more than writing printFibN on a piece of paper will cause it to magically evaluate."
03:16:42 <Sgeo> Wonder if that will catch on as a description
03:17:02 <Bike> sounds like if it did, that would be some damn useful paper, though
03:32:19 <quintopia> does anyone remember which language of ais523 is the one where there's like a table of memory cells and the only instruction is like copy the contents of that one to this one and jump to that other one?
03:33:46 <quintopia> Bike: lol at that quote. "perfect" meaning "omniscient" I guess?
03:34:25 <Bike> something silly
03:35:44 <Bike> "By slaying the mythical loop snooper, Turing taught us that there are fundamental limits to what computers can do. We all have our limits, and in a way it's comforting to know that the artificial brains that we create will always have theirs too."
03:36:00 <Bike> [whatever] brain is such a shitty word for computers, grr
03:43:51 <quintopia> "let's call the subset of computers which aren't brains [blah] brains! so the all computers are brains, yay!"
03:44:23 <quintopia> it's okay as long as [blah] is Matryoshka
03:45:42 <Bike> only because those are so sci-fi it doesn't matter.
03:47:26 <quintopia> here's my best reword: "it's good to know that things which are made out of stuff in this universe will always be incapable of doing things which are impossible in this universe."
03:52:39 <Sgeo> Oh no am I going to start watching these now?
03:52:41 <Sgeo> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?annotation_id=annotation_3883136257&feature=iv&list=PL4NL9i-Fu15hhYGB-d0hmSWD1fcIvLvn1&src_vid=oOGJQD0WXkk
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04:18:17 <Sgeo> kmc: a paper on occurence typing: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/racket/pubs/icfp10-thf.pdf
04:21:52 <Sgeo> Although really, the use of such predicates often makes me uncomfortable
04:22:00 <Sgeo> Like it indicates someone likely doing something silly
04:32:22 <Bike> silly... or extraordinary?
04:34:38 <kmc> the goggles do nothing
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05:39:57 <Bike> it doesn't show on this term, i really should fix this stupid thing
05:40:02 <Bike> by which i mean use something else.
05:42:38 <kmc> how do you do that again
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05:46:32 <kmc> it's too bad you can't adjust the phase
05:48:00 <Bike> there's probably some term somewhere that let you feed analog functions to the monitorssss
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07:32:01 <fizzie> I wanted to see the VISIBILITY, it is very FOGGY here.
07:36:45 <fizzie> EFHK 070720Z 12005KT 0200 R04R/0550N R15/0375N R22L/0550N R04L/0500N FZFG VV001 M03/M03 Q1003 TEMPO 0600
07:38:21 <quintopia> you can ask dirac for the weather. dirac is online usually and prints human-readable weather.
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07:51:41 * kmc !important;
07:52:52 <fizzie> There's just something about them METARs.
07:54:39 <Sgeo> Huh. Amazon has a Kindle edition of The Reasoned Schemer, but B&N doesn't have an epub version
07:54:53 <Sgeo> Is that going to be a trend, or is that just me rationalizing having gotten a Kindle?
07:55:29 <HackEgo> 994) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
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08:18:01 <fizzie> "make: stat: GNUmakefile: Transport endpoint is not connected" huh
08:18:18 <fizzie> Oh, it's just a disconnected sshfs thing, never mind.
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10:42:51 <quintopia> ais523: I just found a ResPlicate sequence that goes 12850 cycles before deleting itself! how are you?
10:43:04 <ais523> I'm not doing great, but I'll survive
10:43:11 <ais523> and it's an interesting language
10:43:53 <ais523> I haven't "broken" it in terms of TCness yet, although my first thoughts are a) try to avoid the same queue element being used for both a length and a repeat count if possible, b) try to simulate a tag system
10:45:15 <quintopia> ais523: well that first condition is easy to meet. just make sure all the odd numbered elements of the sequence are even numbers :)
10:45:31 <ais523> quintopia: yep, that's why I thought of it
10:45:31 <quintopia> (and that there is an even number of numbers in the sequence)
10:45:37 <ais523> it seems trivial and make reasoning about the language much easier
10:46:09 <quintopia> but it seems to do much more interesting things when you let them be odd :P
10:52:59 <quintopia> ais523: besides yourself, what's your short list of "esolang experts"
10:53:29 <ais523> quintopia: oerjan's highest on the list, he's better at it than I am
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10:54:07 <quintopia> nooodl: I improved your ResPlicate interpreter and am having so much fun I can't go to sleep
10:54:47 <quintopia> ais523: really? I would have had a tough time deciding between you two. And maybe John Conway also.
10:55:01 <nooodl> fwiw i think Resplicate looks better than ResPlicate
10:55:52 <ais523> hm, the problem with trying to program in ResPlicate is that you don't have any external source of data, copying is the /only/ way to make the string longer
10:56:48 <quintopia> yes. if you want a number in there, you better start with it in there.
10:57:34 <quintopia> and you have to keep it in there too. that's even harder.
10:58:50 <quintopia> nooodl: the sequence family 6 3 10 1 6 2 2k+1 1 is amaaaaaaaaaaaaaazing. try it!
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11:30:45 <nooodl> quintopia: i don't see the pattern i think
11:41:23 <quintopia> nooodl: there's no pattern! that's what's so great! most of them delete themselves, some of them become all-twos, and a few grow.
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12:13:31 <oerjan> <Bike> sounds like if it did, that would be some damn useful paper, though <-- note to future logreaders: back when this was written, most paper was _not_ ... heck we haven't even decided what to call it yet.
12:14:20 <oerjan> also, google and wikipedia were most unhelpful.
12:14:38 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's just called smart paper.
12:14:50 <ais523> quintopia: I have a plan for proving resplicate TC already, not sure if it works or not though
12:14:56 <oerjan> future logreaders: see fizzie ^
12:15:13 <fizzie> (Source: Neal Stephenson, "The Diamond Age".)
12:16:17 <quintopia> ais523: well i could already visualize how a tag system might be shaped, but it wasn't readily apparent how to do some parts of it
12:16:24 <quintopia> ais523: i'm ready to hear what you've got
12:16:31 <ais523> I'm not ready to explain it yet though
12:17:06 <quintopia> okay i'll go back to not sleeping and reading about bytebeat
12:17:28 <ais523> one of the things I'm bad at is converting thoughts into a medium that other people can understand
12:17:37 <ais523> I can normally manage it eventually, but it takes a while
12:18:07 <oerjan> ais523: it seems similar to Self BCT? although with the ability to handle somewhat larger sequences in one step.
12:18:25 <ais523> oerjan: not really, doesn't self BCT have two pointers?
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12:40:48 <oerjan> quintopia: i cannot compete with conway, i've fought him and lost.
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12:49:56 <fizzie> "Authors retain the right to use the accepted author manuscript for personal use, internal institutional use and for permitted scholarly posting provided that these are not for purposes of commercial use or systematic distribution." "Systematic distribution means: policies or other mechanisms designed to aggregate and openly disseminate, or to substitute for journal-provided services --"
12:51:55 <Jafet> Is this why faculty websites always look unsystematic
12:53:16 <fizzie> Also any "Institutional, funding body or government manuscript posting policies or mandates that aim to aggregate and openly distribute the work by its researchers or funded researchers", no matter how haphazardly implemented, count as "systematic distribution".
12:54:19 <Jafet> researchers or funded researchers
12:54:39 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed that too.
12:57:05 <fizzie> I guess it could imply that it considers policies that apply to researchers, or policies that apply to funded researchers. (As a corollary, a policy that applies to "all researchers except this one guy" would then not be systematic distribution.)
12:59:46 <fizzie> (The "loophole" person, whose work would not be included, could be an annually changing position.)
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13:22:27 <boily> good unmechanical morning!
13:22:37 <lambdabot> oerjan said 14h 19m 41s ago: `learn now removes english articles hth
13:23:17 <fizzie> fungot: Why don't you do an AI-complete fact database thing?
13:23:18 <fungot> fizzie: this is too stupid to talk to my roommate this fall who's into public sex, lose any aesthetic sense as it is
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13:24:41 <boily> it's... actually a sensible reason.
13:25:03 <boily> I guess even bots can be affected by public sexing roommates.
13:26:06 <fizzie> I'm a bit puzzled about it, though, since fungot's hardware is in our apartment, and we're not into public sex at all.
13:26:06 <fungot> fizzie: yes. but not planning writing actually.)) be ()
13:28:01 <boily> fizzie: we're not in the Fall season yet. maybe fungot's planning to go study abroad or something?
13:28:01 <fungot> boily: when placed on each
13:28:11 <boily> fungot: on each what?
13:28:11 <fungot> boily: finally a sane network topology with the firewall physically between local network and internet... no esoteric)
13:28:39 <boily> fizzie: that confirms my theory. he's going to MIT to study network topologies between firewalls.
13:29:07 <fizzie> boily: Have you been sending fake student exchange applications again?
13:29:14 <fungot> fizzie: something like fnord should execute the handler, so it would be
13:32:55 <boily> incidentally, me neither. I didn't send fake student exchange applications again.
13:33:13 <boily> fungot: nothing is like fnord.
13:33:13 <fungot> boily: what is your native language?)... that made it difficult.
13:33:22 <boily> fungot: French. I know it makes everything difficult.
13:33:23 <fungot> boily: last time what? scheme hardly has any guterals, although the universities now have changed to an ascii value.
13:33:42 <boily> uhm. what is a guteral, and its ASCII value?
13:33:52 <oerjan> it's probably a misspelling of guttural
13:34:07 <oerjan> and indeed scheme has none
13:37:59 <fizzie> "Gutenberg" would be a good unit for amount of written text.
13:38:16 * boily pharyngealizes C0 and C1 codes “FF US NUL GS OSC *cough*”
13:38:33 <fizzie> 1 Gutenberg equals the amount of material in Project Gutenberg. Er, except now that I think of it, it's not a very stable unit.
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13:58:37 <boily> int-e: did you accidentaly lambdabot?
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14:52:11 <FireFly> So I hear fungot's going abroad
14:52:11 <fungot> FireFly: are you even asking me this? snakes fnord with human evolution? somewhere in between them
14:52:56 <FireFly> Very knowledgeable in biology, I hear
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14:55:55 <Johnnie> A friend of mine told me today that I am now in the Turing tarpit. I had to google that up to realize that I'm on the right track with SPAM/1 ^__^
14:55:58 <HackEgo> utkarsh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
14:56:20 <boily> Jellohnnie! good tarpitual morning!
14:56:21 <ais523> Johnnie: tarpits are a large category of esolangs
14:56:26 <boily> @localtime Johnnie
14:56:27 <lambdabot> Local time for Johnnie is Fri Feb 07 09:59:36 2014
14:56:40 <ais523> and one of the categories that more commonly produces interesting research
14:56:45 <Johnnie> I had forgotten it's a global community.
14:57:06 <Johnnie> Had no idea, but I'm gathering this is a really good thing.
14:57:10 <boily> Johnnie: I think I can ask you the The Question: what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
14:58:27 <ais523> boily: you typoed The Question
14:58:40 <ais523> not that it's an interesting question, IMO
14:59:14 <ais523> Johnnie: no, you did nothing wrong
14:59:23 <ais523> this is just a stupid meme that I'd love it if it had died ages ago
14:59:33 <Johnnie> I never thought I did, ais523. I'm actually quite pleased. ^__^
14:59:37 <elliott__> ais523: it's actually meant to be body weigh
14:59:39 <ais523> boily: when this channel is discussing esolangs, please discuss esolangs :_)
14:59:52 <ais523> elliott__: what's with the double underscore these days?
15:00:02 <ais523> I'm not worried about impersonation because I can tell it's you in two lines
15:00:08 <ais523> but I am a little confused
15:00:25 <Johnnie> My language, SPAM/1 is about technologies that died ages ago ^__^
15:00:25 -!- elliott__ has changed nick to elliott_________.
15:00:40 <Johnnie> As for my coords: 32°47′00″N 79°56′00″W
15:03:10 <Johnnie> And body weigh....under two bags of cement.
15:04:00 <Johnnie> (using the hundredweight measurement)
15:06:10 <oerjan> that's far too accurate for me _not_ to paste into google maps.
15:06:28 <ais523> it's only accurate to the nearest minute
15:06:43 <Johnnie> That's okay, I snatched it off of Wikipedia.
15:07:07 <oerjan> ais523: well it's pretty close to a college...
15:08:51 <Johnnie> I'd thought Wikipedia would use coords close to the Harbour.
15:09:16 <ais523> Wikipedia probably just rounded to the nearest minute
15:09:34 <oerjan> how much _is_ a minute anyway.
15:09:36 <ais523> link for me to click on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/ResPlicate
15:09:50 <ais523> oerjan: 1/(60*360) of the Earth's circumference
15:10:30 <ais523> at any meridian, it equals one nautical mile exactly
15:10:50 <fizzie> A man wanted to talk to me about Jesus, at the bus stop in front of the CS building. That was *so* un-Finnish.
15:10:53 <ais523> Wikipedia says 1852m by definition
15:12:03 <oerjan> i'd say the harbour is on the border of plausible rounding range
15:12:25 <Johnnie> In other words: close enough.
15:13:51 <fizzie> Strangeish to put the seconds in after rounding to minutes, but maybe it's convention.
15:13:57 <boily> ais523: it's not a typo. it's traditionnal to write “weigh”.
15:14:18 <ais523> boily: are you actively trying to drive me from the channel agin?
15:14:36 <Johnnie> I think I figured out the goal for the Wiki. I have no intention of implementing SPAM. But I want to document it enoough that implementation is entirely possible.
15:14:41 <oerjan> "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, even the Finnish, [...]"
15:14:51 <Johnnie> ...enoough?....too many 'o's.
15:15:24 <boily> ais523: sorry, I was in a meeting, and I answered before seeing your other reply. I will esolang when esolanging is happening.
15:19:25 <oerjan> hm i'm wondering how close resPlicate can emulate something Fueue-like, if you make sure all blocks have "statically" known lengths and you avoid explicit swapping (but maybe it can be simulated, like in underload)
15:20:00 <ais523> I'm still thinking about ResPlicate
15:20:58 <oerjan> it's the most minimalistic queue language we've had so far, i think
15:21:06 <ais523> I have an idea of creating a tag system, using a dictionary of all necessary rule-pieces that gets copied around (as multiple copies) at regular intervals so that the rule-pieces can be extracted from it
15:21:23 <ais523> and hmm, it sort-of competes with http://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight (and cyclic tag) for the title of "minimalistic queue-language"
15:23:09 <oerjan> um it has no program/data separation, which i think is a big boost
15:23:37 <Johnnie> The Norweigans ruled Britian under Cnut the Great and Sweyn Forkbeard...maybe the Finnish can rule the world under esolangs?
15:24:23 <Johnnie> Again, I was reading Wikipedia.
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15:30:59 <Johnnie> ...fake diamonds that are glued to eyes of plastic cows?....I noticed that just now. XD
15:33:04 <Johnnie> Okay. I'm off. See everyone later. Have a good weekend
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15:43:05 <ais523> oerjan: program/data separation normally makes things easier rather than harder, but maybe not
15:44:13 <oerjan> ais523: yes of course, but it makes it less minimalistic.
15:44:56 <ais523> I mean, my definition of "minimalistic" is "easy to implement in a range of ridiculously limited languages"
15:53:55 <oerjan> ...i think we shall have to agree to disagree :P
15:54:18 <oerjan> although that is of course useful too
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16:11:00 <stalem> when every idea of a language has been invented, reinvented, mangled, modified and regurgitated; what left is there to do? create a new paradigm?
16:13:02 <shikhin> Life's worthless, you mean to say?
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16:17:01 <ais523> stalem: creating new paradigms is what I really want to do
16:17:21 <ais523> about the best I've managed in that direction is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload (which turned out to be pre-existing but niche)
16:18:13 <boily> we live in a world were even crab-based computing exists. it's hard to come up with something new.
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16:18:59 <stalem> ah yeah i've read that page multiple times. i bet it's a headache creating new paradigms, it's hard enough finding a good idea for a language. not to mention the amount of paradigms are getting to vast the possibilities must be getting drained
16:19:14 <stalem> what? crab-based computer? like live crabs?
16:19:30 <boily> stalem: http://techland.time.com/2012/04/18/crab-computing-the-future-of-computers-powered-by-crabs-wait-what/
16:19:41 <boily> elliott_________: it's getting uneasier.
16:19:47 <stalem> "the future of computers" lol
16:20:13 <boily> shellokhin. long time no see!
16:20:35 <shikhin> boily: Yeah, lost my auto-join list and then never added this channel back :-)
16:20:35 <stalem> an analog boid computer using crabs haha
16:21:09 <shikhin> boily: But, recently, got involved with some fun stuff involing a couple of norttis and a couple of esoteric languages, so got back here.
16:21:23 <boily> there are multiples norttis???
16:21:34 <boily> fungot: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
16:21:34 <fungot> boily: are you looking for? fnord/ fnord/ fnord
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16:53:33 <newsham> anyone play with microcorruption.com ?
16:56:18 <b_jonas> is there an english word similar to "want" or "need" that takes both a noun without preposition or a verb without "to"? or can that not exist because it would cause ambiguities between noun and verb?
16:57:31 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, I remember studying this sort of thing for grammartree
16:58:00 <b_jonas> it needn't be a single word, it can be a phrase
16:58:08 <newsham> "I want food" "I need food" works without preposition, but I think you need the "to" for verbs to make it "infinitive"
16:58:35 <ais523> there are verbs like "should" that don't take "to"
16:58:52 <b_jonas> newsham: yes, after a verbs like that you usually need either a to-infinitive or gerund
16:58:52 <ais523> but they tend not to work with nouns
16:59:38 <newsham> it means "can I have" in cat talk
16:59:54 <ais523> incidentally, verbs that appear in the portion of NetHack I converted to grammartree that take verbs without infinitives: can, had better, should, may
17:00:05 <b_jonas> yes, but what form of verb, as in "I can has go out" or "I can has to go out" or "I can has going out"
17:00:17 <ais523> and some verbs take participles, or possibly gerunds: stop, like, see
17:00:26 <ais523> and "can has" is lolcat speak, not actual English
17:00:39 <ais523> thus it doesn't obey normal grammar rules
17:00:43 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, it wouldn't suit me because of that, I was wondering
17:00:48 <b_jonas> I'll check the lolcat bible
17:00:50 <ais523> and in fact the grammar is mostly made up on the pot
17:01:06 <b_jonas> there is some sort of consistency
17:01:23 <b_jonas> see http://lolcatbible.com/index.php?title=How_to_speak_lolcat and similar
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17:03:42 <nooodl> ais523: whatever happened to that
17:04:08 <ais523> nooodl: we put it on hold because it was taking up all our time, we're planning to reintroduce it later but a bit at a time
17:04:21 <ais523> like originally reserve it for the bits that benefit the most
17:05:07 -!- Bike has joined.
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17:13:34 <Bike> http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7451e31a-8f90-11e3-9cb0-00144feab7de.html wack, yo
17:14:42 <ion> It requires registration.
17:14:49 <FireFly> That thing wants me to sign up to read the article
17:14:51 <ion> to be able to read 8 articles per month
17:15:24 <FireFly> and they don't seem to do the nice thing of sending the webpage with an overlay covering the actual content
17:15:29 <Bike> ibm's thinking of selling their semiconductor division
17:17:28 <int-e> <boily> int-e: did you accidentaly lambdabot?
17:18:50 <int-e> it just lost its connection to the server (aka ping timeout)
17:24:03 <Taneb> Aaaah what should I have for dinner
17:24:07 <Taneb> Something quick to cook preferably
17:24:36 <Taneb> Also I accidentally learnt pandoc when I wanted to learn rust
17:24:39 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/Fibs.pdf
17:24:56 <Bike> common mistake
17:25:21 <Bike> make a turkey. here's an instructional video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4FSew0vmUQ
17:26:16 <Bike> british thanksgiving is coming up, right
17:26:36 <ais523> I don't think Britain /has/ a Thankgiving
17:27:49 <Bike> what a rude thing to say.
17:28:57 <Taneb> btw if anyone wants to critique the rust code in that pdf feel free to
17:31:19 <Taneb> Also I still don't know what to have for dinner
17:36:49 <ais523> Taneb: recently I've mostly been combining some sort of prepackaged chicken with some sort of prepackaged salad with some sort of prepackaged carbohydrate
17:36:58 <ais523> you can get a lot of variations out of that, and it's pretty fast
17:37:28 <Taneb> ais523, are the west midlands 300 years into the future?
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17:43:24 <ais523> Taneb: well a chicken salad sandwich is all three of those at once
17:43:35 <ais523> so it's not massively difficult to achieve
17:43:43 <ais523> but you can't live on /only/ those
17:47:56 <FireFly> this private-use character renders funnily in my font: ''
17:48:25 <ais523> in this font it looks like a solid circle
17:49:12 <FireFly> For me it's a bunch of waves approx. 12 characters wide, which looks kind-of odd in a terminal
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18:02:36 <fizzie> Though if I open the logs in a browser, it looks like... well, it looks like a very small uppercase A, on top of which (as a diacritic) there's a thing that looks vaguely like a small lambda.
18:03:43 <fizzie> Zooming in reveals that the diacritic is instead a caret and a grave accent, stacked vertically, with the grave on top.
18:06:47 <ais523> that's a pretty nice letter
18:08:38 <fizzie> Is there a way in Unicode to say that "this following stack of combining characters should go vertically in this order, instead of being all on top of each other"?
18:11:55 <fizzie> Apparently there's a character called Combining Grapheme Joiner, which can be used to block reordering of combining characters during normalization ("For example, -- [as] one way to maintain distinction between differently ordered sequences of certain Hebrew accents and marks"), but that's a different thing.
18:15:22 <fizzie> And double diacritics (two-character ones, that is) will float over any diacritic marks of the participating two characters, but that's also different.
18:17:00 <fizzie> And you can put other diacritics on top of a double diacritic by following the double diacritic with the CGJ and a diacritic, but that's still not quite it.
18:32:24 <boily> back from lunch, and it diacriticise.
18:32:33 <boily> (it also winds and snows outside. stupid weather.)
18:32:40 <metasepia> CYUL 071800Z 23021G28KT 15SM DRSN OVC035 M08/M13 A3011 RMK SC8 SLP197
18:32:52 <metasepia> EFHK 071820Z 13010KT 0800 R04R/P1500U R15/0900N R22L/P1500U R04L/P1500U FG VV002 00/00 Q1002 NOSIG
18:33:03 <fizzie> Our FZFG has turned to plain old FG.
18:33:42 <fizzie> It's been a very foggy day, however.
18:34:05 <boily> you're also suffering from 0800 and chronic VV002, it seems.
18:34:24 <fizzie> There was a note in the news that there's been delays at EFHK.
18:34:32 <boily> (ground visibility: 800 m or 1/2 mi, vertical visibility 20')
18:34:46 <fizzie> 20' sounds like not a much.
18:35:40 <boily> I'm checking the units. I'm currently doubting it.
18:36:40 <boily> 200'. missed a magnitude there.
18:37:24 <metasepia> ESSA 071820Z 13014KT 5000 -RA OVC006 02/01 Q0990 R01L/29//95 R08/29//95 R01R/29//95 TEMPO 4000 -RA
18:42:09 <FireFly> I wonder why there's two -RN's there
18:42:39 <boily> the first is a regular -RA, the second is a TEMPOrary change.
18:43:42 <boily> so you have -RA, and light -RA with 30% lest fat.
18:43:45 <FireFly> Do you call people who read METARs METARologists?
18:44:14 <HackEgo> boily is the brother of Roujo's brother and he's monetizing the company Roujo works at, or something Canadian like that. He's also a NaniDispenser, and a Man Eating Chicken.
18:45:00 <boily> `learn boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist.
18:46:30 <FireFly> A broterhood scheme, you say
18:46:42 <boily> with Pouti and Roujo.
18:47:34 <metasepia> BIRK 071800Z 01011KT 9999 FEW020 02/M01 Q0978
18:49:34 <boily> FireFly: visiting iceland?
18:49:47 <FireFly> Nope, just curious about the weather there
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19:01:27 <kmc> TIL the Perl CGI module contains some kind of wacky (and not very good) DSL for outputting HTML code (rather, XHTML 1.0 only)
19:02:24 <kmc> I updated my house's accounting system (a venerable Perl script) to output nicer-looking Bootstrap-y HTML
19:04:50 <b_jonas> what's this fascination with Bootstrap by everyone?
19:05:18 <kmc> it just makes a page look decent with very little effort
19:05:35 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "look decent"?
19:05:43 <kmc> more readable, more pleasing to the eye
19:05:57 <b_jonas> is it like shiny stuff marketing asks for?
19:06:02 <b_jonas> aren't you doing this page for yourself?
19:06:05 <kmc> what crawled up your ass
19:06:13 <kmc> U CARE AESTHETICS U NO REAL PROGRAMR
19:06:44 <b_jonas> sorry, I don't mean to be so negative, there is probably something bootstrap does well, I just don't know it and I'd like to find out what it is
19:06:54 <b_jonas> "make it nice" doesn't seem like something that would make you use it alone
19:07:15 <kmc> b_jonas: I'm not a web designer so I can't describe specifically the aspects which make it good design, but I appreciate the result
19:07:25 <kmc> definitely a few things like better fonts and good spacing are obvious
19:07:30 <boily> bootstrap has a 12-column grid. granted, nearly all starting bases have them, but bootstrap does some aggressive marketing.
19:07:48 <kmc> I'm a programmer and so I delegate design things to professional designers, and importing Bootstrap is a no-effort way to do that for small personal projects
19:07:51 <kmc> so why not do it?
19:08:05 <kmc> do I need a super strong reason to use it? it's one line of HTML
19:08:10 <b_jonas> ok, if that's all it's probably not something made for me
19:08:37 <kmc> another specific thing it does that's useful in this context (accounting) is the thing where alternating rows of a table are shaded differently
19:08:43 <kmc> and when you hover over a row it's shaded differently still
19:08:58 <b_jonas> kmc: ok, now that's something specific I can understand
19:09:18 <b_jonas> even if it's just like a few lines of css, but yes, it's good that a framework handles taht
19:09:54 <b_jonas> yeah, the problem is probably that I don't like "frameworks" in general
19:09:59 <FireFly> well, if you can get something with a few fancy flashy gradients and buttons and stuff with little effort, I don't see why not
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19:10:43 <b_jonas> FireFly: because I don't want fancy gradients. I'm old school in typography and believe that text should be put on a uniform colored background only.
19:11:16 <kmc> it doesn't do fancy flashy gradients
19:11:30 <kmc> it's a very simple clean design
19:11:34 <kmc> "flat design" is the fad now so it's even simpler
19:11:48 <b_jonas> that's also why I don't understand people using transparent windows, esp transparent menus and transparent terminal windows, or terminal windows with backgrounds
19:11:53 <kmc> http://getbootstrap.com/css/ http://getbootstrap.com/components/
19:12:14 <b_jonas> but I admit that I also don't like frameworks in general
19:13:42 <ion> Bootstrap also makes responsive layouts easy and you can be p. sure that it works everywhere without testing it everywhere yourself.
19:14:07 <boily> ion: <boily> I like columns.
19:14:53 <ion> boily: Me too, except when using a very narrow display.
19:15:33 <kmc> b_jonas: I do the minimal terminals, minimal WM thing too
19:15:39 <kmc> b_jonas: however the default unstyled HTML isn't "minimal"
19:15:46 <kmc> it uses a fucking serif font
19:15:55 <kmc> in many respects bootstrap'd HTML looks simpler and cleaner
19:16:04 <kmc> it's not about fancy gradients and impressing marketing
19:16:33 <b_jonas> kmc: as for that, I do like serif fonts, but I decide about that in my browser settings.
19:16:37 <kmc> if "design" is such a tainted word to your ultra programmer sensibilities then call it "information presentation engineering" or whatever
19:16:46 <boily> imho, it's very hard to achieve a nice formatting with serif fonts on a retro-lit display.
19:17:09 <kmc> anyway i got to go
19:17:11 <b_jonas> sometimes I make my browser forcibly override fonts in all html to a good serif font instead of letting browsers choose, but then I usually turn it back eventually except for some bad websites
19:17:30 <boily> b_jonas: what are your favourite serif fonts?
19:17:47 <b_jonas> boily: maybe it is if you're using small font sizes. I prefer large sizes
19:18:43 <b_jonas> boily: sadly I don't really have any font I'm completely satisfied with. I would eventually like to design my own fonts, in like the next few decades, but for now I only have a good bitmap terminal font I've drawn.
19:19:02 <b_jonas> in browser I usually use either bitstream vera serif or times
19:19:24 <boily> I dislike times. I'm more of a palatino guy.
19:20:18 <boily> a nice example of serifed text → http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116443/new-york-citys-french-dual-language-programs-are-mostly-pointless
19:20:32 <boily> (they use ‘Publico Text’)
19:20:53 <b_jonas> hmm, actually I think I do currently have the font forced on all websites in this browser
19:33:59 <FireFly> That reminds me, I haven't read ILT in a long time
19:34:19 <FireFly> http://ilovetypography.com/ that is
19:40:45 <quintopia> boily: 'Thanks, boily! Thoily!' reads much better than 'Thanks User:Boily, Thoily!'. Here's one case where policy gets in the way of style. almost makes me want to delinkify it.
19:42:59 <boily> b_jonas: we have bots for everything!
19:43:35 -!- evalj has joined.
19:44:11 <HackEgo> evalj: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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19:53:26 <quintopia> b_jonas: he did. then ais523 un-pipelinked due to wiki policy.
19:54:27 <quintopia> is it just me or did that last relcome say 'Forcthe'
19:54:41 <boily> quintopia: it is you. fnord.
19:55:03 <quintopia> oh the extra c disappeared when you spoke
19:55:46 <quintopia> boily: have you invented yucca yet?
19:56:47 <boily> not yet, not yet. as I said some time ago, I need to have a “fit of a stroke” of inspiration.
19:56:57 <b_jonas> ] consonants =: a.{~,66 98+/I.#:31324125
19:57:18 <boily> and once again I `relcomed a bot.
19:57:45 <b_jonas> evalj has no problems with that
19:57:48 <boily> quintopia: in fact, there was a spark the other day when we were discussing undecideble sequences.
19:57:52 <evalj> b_jonas, pong: relcome
19:57:55 <quintopia> boily: you can't just wait for inspiration to smite you. you have to be thinking about esolangs in EVERY SPARE MOMENT
19:58:22 <quintopia> boily: i wasn't there. what was said?
19:58:22 <boily> quintopia: I like the feeling of beeing smitten. I stalk orc priests and hellwings.
19:58:39 <boily> quintopia: something about... eeeeh... I'm kinda having a blank here.
19:58:47 <boily> it's related to the halting problem.
20:00:13 <quintopia> boily: 'stalking orc priests' is the metaphorical equivalent of thinking about esolangs ALL THE TIME
20:00:56 <b_jonas> ] thanks=: 3 :'''Thanks, '',y,''. Th'',''.'',~y}.~i.&0 y e.consonants'
20:01:07 <boily> quintopia: trouvé! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_correspondence_problem
20:01:12 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, boily. Thoily.
20:01:37 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, Firefly. Thirefly.
20:01:51 <b_jonas> what should this do for names like 'kmc' though?
20:01:56 <boily> ] thanks 'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:01:56 <evalj> boily: |value error: thanks
20:01:56 <evalj> boily: | thanks'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:02:00 <evalj> FireFly: |value error: thanks
20:02:00 <evalj> FireFly: | thanks'kmc'
20:02:17 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
20:02:44 <b_jonas> boily: try 'evalj load: b_jonas,' or something first. stupid bot defaults to separate states per nick.
20:02:46 <boily> quintopia: I'm having ideas. something MALBOLGIAN.
20:02:47 <evalj> b_jonas, working session is b_jonas,#esoteric
20:03:02 <evalj> b_jonas, changed to ,#esoteric
20:03:03 <boily> evalj load: b_jonas
20:03:03 <evalj> boily, copied boily,#esoteric from boily,b_jonas
20:03:09 <boily> ] thanks 'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:03:09 <evalj> boily: |value error: thanks
20:03:09 <evalj> boily: | thanks'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:03:11 <b_jonas> boily: no, the comma is needed
20:03:18 <evalj> b_jonas, copied ,#esoteric from b_jonas,#esoteric
20:03:24 <boily> evalj load: b_jonas,
20:03:24 <evalj> boily, copied boily,#esoteric from b_jonas,#esoteric
20:03:27 <boily> ] thanks 'aaaaa something with a vowel'
20:03:27 <evalj> boily: Thanks, aaaaa something with a vowel. Thaaaaa something with a vowel.
20:04:00 <quintopia> boily: whatever it is, we should be able to talk to metasepia in it
20:04:04 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, kmc. Th.
20:04:09 <evalj> b_jonas: Thanks, evalj. Thevalj.
20:04:31 <b_jonas> I think 'Thevalj.' is right. Isn't that sort of how pig latin works?
20:04:38 <b_jonas> I'm not good in these English language games
20:04:48 <boily> quintopia: of course. I'd like to have it understand aubergine also.
20:05:13 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Name_Game is more relevant than pig latin?
20:07:28 <FireFly> I think pig latin cuts up and reorders stuff
20:08:28 <b_jonas> I still don't know what it should give for a nick with only consonants
20:09:26 <boily> b_jonas: ↑ that's one possible solution.
20:10:38 <quintopia> boily: it should be WrItTeN In iN aUbErFGiNe
20:10:58 <quintopia> agh stupid lag echoing backspaces instead of doing them
20:11:31 <boily> you squished an ERF in my aubergine.
20:12:58 <quintopia> imagine it the way it looked to me before udp mangled it
20:14:59 <boily> spelling guterals won't help you there, you Infamous Squisher.
20:15:54 <boily> but I think I'm still going to go a step further than that. something more... arduous. tortuous. painful, like a stubbed toe on a rabid stove.
20:17:03 <quintopia> quintopia: make something that is a JOY to program in! even more than aubergine!
20:18:07 <boily> oh. so, pain inducing, but more like a quality hot sauce where you put your tongue on fire and your brains on dopamines?
20:19:58 <boily> (btw, is there yucca flavoured hot sauce out there? I'd buy a bottle of that if thausible.)
20:23:59 <quintopia> boily: http://honest-food.net/2011/06/15/eating-yucca-flowers/ there's this at least. your language should be like eating fried flowers with hot sauce
20:24:28 <boily> you are tempting me.
20:24:37 <b_jonas> quintopia: fire flowers? as in super mario ones?
20:24:57 <b_jonas> oens that make you powerful
20:25:25 <ais523> sadly, flowers tend not to shoot fire in real life
20:25:33 <ais523> there are plants with projectile weapons, though
20:26:24 <quintopia> ais523: have you broken resplicate yet. we're all waiting :P
20:27:01 <ais523> quintopia: no, I need to spend overnight I think
20:27:07 <ais523> I can't concentrate when I have Internet access
20:27:12 <ais523> this is why most of my BF Jousting is done offline
20:28:21 <b_jonas> it's not the flowers that shoot fire
20:28:32 <b_jonas> it's super mario that shoots fire after he takes a fire flower
20:30:32 <ais523> quintopia: careful not to destroy my laptop
20:30:48 <ais523> b_jonas: the flower itself shoots fire in Smash Bros.
20:31:27 <quintopia> ais523: i focused on isp hubs and cell towers
20:31:50 <ais523> you can ignore the cell towers, I don't have any sort of cellular equipment
20:32:00 <ais523> because then I wouldn't be able to concentrate /ever/ :-)
20:32:56 <b_jonas> well, mario games also have flower-like enemies that duck in and out of pipes, some of which shoot flowers, but I don't know what those are called
20:34:00 <b_jonas> gb super mario 2 has cannons instead of flowers only I think
20:34:21 <b_jonas> the cannons don't duck in and out of pipes
20:34:32 <boily> http://www.mariowiki.com/Piranha_Plant ?
20:34:43 <ais523> b_jonas: piranha plants I think
20:35:03 <ais523> also, the canons duck in and out of pipes on super mario land /1/
20:35:16 <ais523> /2/ has piranha plants, like in the NES and SNES games
20:35:25 <quintopia> and the fire shooters are venus firetraps
20:35:27 <ais523> err, didn't mean to italicise the2
20:35:46 <b_jonas> actually from that wiki http://www.mariowiki.com/Venus_Fire_Trap is the variant that shoots fire
20:36:22 <quintopia> hurray we are all good at googling
20:36:31 <ais523> hey, I'm doing this from memory
20:36:34 <b_jonas> but what's the black cat-head-like thing in gb super mario 1 that ducks from pipes and shoots horizontally moving bullets?
20:36:47 <ais523> as I said, learning about computer games I've never played is one of my hobbies
20:36:49 <b_jonas> I didn't google, I just clicked on a link from the Piranha Plant article
20:36:52 <ais523> (also, I have actually played SML1 and 2)
20:36:58 <ais523> (and completed both of them)
20:37:02 <b_jonas> I have played both, but sml2 much more
20:37:24 <b_jonas> I haven't completed sml2, but I've done all but the wario level
20:37:30 <b_jonas> the wario level turns out to be too difficult to me
20:37:40 <ais523> it's an order of magnitude harder than anything else in the game
20:37:40 * quintopia aims at birdo at ais523. "beat super mario sunshine or you get the egg!"
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20:38:04 <ais523> b_jonas: for quite a lot of it, memorization helps
20:38:21 <ais523> I also recommend grinding lives (or coins to buy lives) so that you don't have to go and refight all the bosses when you screw up
20:38:27 <b_jonas> the reason why sml2 is easy is that you get lots of retries because it's really easy to get lots of extra lives
20:38:51 <b_jonas> I continuously had over 90 lives when playing
20:38:59 <b_jonas> but the wario castle is long
20:39:09 <ais523> yes, long and no checkpoints
20:39:16 <ais523> and the first room is the second-hardest room in the castle
20:39:31 <b_jonas> I don't want to finish it anymore, but I would like to finish commander keen 2
20:39:36 <ais523> yeah, hard room first helps
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20:39:43 <ais523> the hardest room is like halfway through
20:39:57 <b_jonas> I've finished all other commander keen games (on easy level at least),
20:40:19 <boily> time to wipe and clean and nuke and polish and apply febreeze to my machine.
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20:40:42 <ais523> gah, that sentence is leaving me with cognitive dissonance
20:40:52 <b_jonas> and yeah, I could finish those too only because of infinite lives you get by saving after each level
20:40:56 <ais523> because half of it is ambiguous, and the other half gives mixed signals as to how to interpret it
20:41:04 <b_jonas> and, in the second series, in the middle of levels too
20:41:34 <b_jonas> I find ck5 the easiest by far
20:42:06 <ais523> I don't know much about the commander keen series
20:42:53 <b_jonas> ais523: what you should know is that ck1..3 is completely different from ck4..6.
20:43:09 <ais523> OK, this is not very much information because I don't know much about /either/ series
20:43:40 <b_jonas> ck1..3 has more different (and imo more difficult) controls (reacts slower, sort of like prince of persia), different graphics (smaller tiles), different rules (can't save during levels), different level design
20:44:51 <b_jonas> it's also older and targets earlier computers, so the graphics isn't as good (simpler tiles, horizontally scrolls only in multiplies of 8 pixels so it works on EGA or something, which makes it sometimes jerky).
20:44:52 <ais523> like, I don't even know what genre this is
20:46:24 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a 2D platformer where you control a single superhero, the young (8 year old or so) Commander Keen, who dies from a single hit but has a pistol he can use to kill or stun most enemies (limited number of shots in ck1..3)
20:46:40 <b_jonas> and a pogo he can use to jump bigger but more difficult to control than normal jumps
20:46:53 <b_jonas> http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/ is the wiki
20:47:21 <ais523> this doesn't really sound like the sort of game I enjoy
20:47:23 <b_jonas> also, ck4..6 has lots of secret areas, mostly invisible passages inside walls, but sometimes just places that are hard to reach
20:47:40 <nooodl> wow i'm playing commander keen as we speak
20:47:48 <b_jonas> I quite enjoy ck4..6, enjoy ck1..3 somewhat less but now I'd like to complete it
20:48:12 <FireFly> nooodl: the important question is, is it in {1..3} or {4..6}?
20:48:25 <FireFly> (NB. I've never played any CK game either)
20:48:56 <nooodl> i'm doing speedruns. very fun
20:49:13 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Keen3Gameplay.png nice colour palette
20:50:04 <nooodl> i have to do a full 100% run at some point. ck5 speedrunning is aaaactive, ish, but everyone skips through the game with a glitch, even though the levels are very fun
20:50:46 <b_jonas> nooodl: by 100% run, you mean no death and no save?
20:50:56 <nooodl> i mean beat all the levels
20:51:04 <ais523> b_jonas: 100% means you achieve all the goals of the game
20:51:15 <ais523> although, for "beat all the levels", the normal terms are either "all levels" or "warpless"
20:51:25 <b_jonas> do you want to reach all the secret places in levels and the secret level and all the hidden items too, even the really difficult to get extra lives?
20:51:26 <ais523> warpless means you don't skip levels, all levels means you do all of them
20:51:36 <ais523> the difference mostly being when you have a choice of which level to take
20:51:39 <zzo38> It looks to be a standard PC color palette, I think
20:51:42 <ais523> in warpless, you can pick either of them
20:51:49 <ais523> in all levels, you do one, then go back and do the other
20:51:49 <nooodl> "warpless" and "all levels" differ one level in keen 5
20:51:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, some commander keen games have optional levels or choices between levels
20:52:14 <b_jonas> I try to go for all levels except the secret level, that's how I did ck{1,3,4,5,6} I think
20:52:31 <b_jonas> but I definitely cannot reach all the hidden places in all levels
20:52:46 <b_jonas> I want all levels because that's how I get the most fun from the game
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21:22:42 <kmc> `bienvenido yubisaylozada
21:22:43 <HackEgo> yubisaylozada: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:23:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/tervetuloa: No such file or directory
21:23:43 <kmc> `? tervetuloa
21:24:10 <shachaf> does FireFly speak Finnish maybe
21:24:31 <FireFly> Apart from 'ei saa peittä'
21:24:49 <fizzie> That should be "peittää".
21:25:16 <fizzie> "hizzie" sounds like some sort of a rap thing.
21:26:36 <kmc> fungotizzle
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21:27:13 <fungot> shachaf: but with " a" rant... it makes it harder for programs written in scheme
21:28:25 <FireFly> I'm not sure whether yubisaylozada understands english, or is just smiling and nodding along...
21:30:16 <shachaf> FireFly: you might say the same about fungot
21:30:17 <fungot> shachaf: try searching for " library procedure", on the same lines
21:30:19 <kmc> fungot: :)
21:30:19 <fungot> kmc: apparently it's also from greek platypous, but i'm confused about continuations being used in so many ways. for example,
21:30:30 <Bike> i was going to suggest we should mention not speaking spanish in the welcome but... there it is
21:30:39 <kmc> yeah somebody added that
21:30:44 <kmc> somebody++
21:30:56 <ion> “Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja {deployment}:n kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric irc.dal.net:ssä.)” Help, what’s deployment in Finnish?
21:31:42 <b_jonas> that bienvenido message has no color
21:32:05 <ion> käyttöönotto?
21:32:08 <kmc> `run bienvenido b_jonas | rainwords
21:32:09 <HackEgo> b_jonas: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki:
21:32:46 <yubisaylozada> b_jonas: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki:
21:32:46 <Bike> hey how do i set my locale
21:32:54 <Bike> seeing question marks in irc is sad
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21:33:50 <Bike> oh nevermind i found a wiki entry
21:34:36 <b_jonas> is that message in spanish or obfuscated spanish btw? it seems like it has too many long words.
21:34:37 <kmc> typeof(*p) *elliott_________ = (typeof(*p)*__force )ACCESS_ONCE(p);
21:35:01 <kmc> b_jonas: it's the consensus between Google Translate and my half remembered high school spanish knowledge
21:35:05 <kmc> plus some edits by others
21:35:23 <b_jonas> so you don't actually have spanish speakers here?
21:35:45 <kmc> I don't think we have any regulars who are fluent spanish speakers... but I'm not sure
21:36:01 <Bike> isn't that what "la mayoria de nosotros no hablamos espanol" means
21:36:52 <shachaf> ion: what does the ":n" mean
21:37:38 <ion> `learn welcome.fi Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
21:38:11 <ion> shachaf: It’s the inflection equivalent to “of ___”.
21:38:12 <shachaf> is that message in finnish or obfuscated finnish btw? it seems like it has too many long words.
21:38:36 <shachaf> ion: well, i specifically wondered about the ':'
21:38:37 <ion> Is there a difference?
21:39:07 <ion> shachaf: It’s how you attach an inflection into something that can’t be inflected.
21:39:38 <ion> 3 – kolme – three
21:39:46 <ion> 3:n – kolmen – of three / three’s
21:41:38 <ion> IBM:n – IBM’s
21:42:03 <ion> IBM:lle – for IBM
21:42:15 <Bike> why the fuck is there a keyboard layout called 'unicode'...
21:44:10 <kmc> you literally use a colon for that in finnish? weird/cool
21:44:17 <ion> fizzie: You should improve my translation, esp. for “deployment”, kthx
21:45:06 <ion> If you ever see someone write “IBM:s” in English shklee’s probably a native Finn.
21:45:08 <b_jonas> kmc: Hungarian uses a hyphen for that (and removes the period from before it if the word before ends in a period)
21:45:25 <fizzie> The colon+suffix thing gets used wrong in many ways.
21:45:31 <kmc> @tell Sgeo you might be interested in https://air.mozilla.org/incremental-parallelization-of-dynamic-languages/
21:45:34 <kmc> i haven't watched it yet
21:45:49 <b_jonas> as for the colon, someone has suggested to use a dot
21:46:10 <fizzie> E.g. it's "IBM:n" because that's read letter by letter, but "OPECin" because that's read as a word.
21:46:37 <kmc> paamayim nekudotayim
21:46:44 <b_jonas> as for the colon, someone has suggested to use a middle dot as a new punctuation mark in Hungarian to separate the subject (and words attached to that) from the predicate (and words attached from that) in ambiguous sentences,
21:46:56 <b_jonas> but I think we should use the colon for that actually.
21:47:01 <FireFly> Swedish also uses : for ordinals (1:a, 2:a, 3:e for 1st, 2nd, 3rd)
21:47:09 <kmc> fizzie: IBM:n and OPECin are correct usage or they're the wrong usage you object to?
21:47:11 <b_jonas> (this one doesn't make sense in English, where that kind of ambiguity doesn't come up)
21:47:33 <fizzie> kmc: They're both correct. But different, obviously, since the other doesn't have a colon.
21:48:22 <fizzie> ion: I can't really figure out a better word for deployment.
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21:48:57 <b_jonas> as for abuse, the blogs http://www.apostropheabuse.com/ and http://www.apostrophecatastrophes.com/ have lots of examples where apostrophe is used in English to attach plural "s" to words
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21:50:23 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
21:50:27 <ion> `run sed -re 's/\.es\>/.fi/g' <bin/bienvenido
21:50:28 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.fi"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.fi"; }
21:50:37 <Bike> i can feel the american sloughing off me
21:50:46 <ion> `run sed -re 's/\.es\>/.fi/g' <bin/bienvenido >bin/tervetuloa && chmod 755 bin/tervetuloa
21:51:08 <ion> `tervetuloa Adolf
21:51:09 <HackEgo> Adolf: welcome.fi Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
21:51:41 <b_jonas> s/welcome.fi // from taht output
21:51:56 <fizzie> It's in the wisdom file.
21:51:57 <ion> `sed -i -re 's/^welcome\.fi //' wisdom/welcome.fi
21:51:58 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
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21:52:23 <ion> `run sed -i -re 's/^welcome\.fi //' wisdom/welcome.fi
21:52:31 <ion> `tervetuloa Adolf
21:52:32 <HackEgo> Adolf: Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
21:53:16 <ion> Rainbow is sateenkaari in Finnish hth
21:53:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: um... does that make sense in finnish?
21:53:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's not weird, it's just the way `learn has always worked.
21:54:26 <ion> sateentuloa
21:54:38 <HackEgo> kaivaihtuvilta syrjistisemme venemienollisemmaksen finimittumalta hulluvinänsä lyömaaliseen hakeutuvinansa rastani raan keskuumanansa naisempientaisi naisemmalla
21:55:03 <fizzie> "kaivaihtuvilta" is borderline okay.
21:55:19 <fizzie> "from the probably-changing" or some such.
21:55:26 <b_jonas> oooh! is that some sort of stochastic model random generation?
21:55:35 <fizzie> It's character... trigrams?
21:55:38 <fizzie> I think it's trigrams.
21:55:49 <b_jonas> I made one of those once, a bit more complicated,
21:56:04 <fizzie> And then some separate word length model, I think.
21:56:07 <kmc> what other languages does `words know?
21:56:12 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
21:56:17 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
21:56:24 <fizzie> It barely fits in the output.
21:56:32 <nortti> `words --canadian-english-insane
21:56:46 <ion> Isn’t that redundant?
21:56:55 <fizzie> It can interpolate between two, which is I guess fancy.
21:57:01 <fizzie> `words --finnish --swedish 5
21:57:02 <HackEgo> gruosiatriken sänsä tahandeintamilja isras firman
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21:57:18 <b_jonas> taught it the list of ~3300 Hungarian town names and made it generate a mix of random town names and real town names so you have to guess,
21:57:19 <kmc> `words --eng-1M 12
21:57:20 <HackEgo> defica ced tigl magnant spagne bellus dellslotoet remark coversigna inramound congd trailch
21:57:21 <fizzie> Quite often the interpolation sticks to one of the models, unsurprisingly.
21:57:27 <kmc> english is such a beautiful language
21:57:34 <kmc> `words --german 12
21:57:35 <fizzie> kmc: You're such a magnant guy.
21:57:35 <HackEgo> tandenentalthar erung droismenais pannell tubenbau kelligio verrichtetermelz stavent argoverspretelloh infachgeselbuch importfreism far
21:57:40 <b_jonas> often it gave obviously fake gibberish, but it also gave good fakes
21:57:51 <kmc> `words --manx 12
21:57:52 <HackEgo> corpoin aesa cad hagh cummalreas per glooagey grein cleayreyda anchoobalan aasaayn yn-least-chei
21:57:57 <FireFly> `words --canadian-english-insane --esolangs 12
21:57:58 <HackEgo> thulg stant [] snusplia pan intymphiloquiet thingy tage cal perpropoma () purphlor
21:58:06 <fizzie> The esolang dataset is my favourite.
21:58:15 <fizzie> (It's esolang names from the wiki.)
21:58:20 <FireFly> `words --swedish --esolangs 20
21:58:21 <HackEgo> suicerylan ist orkar threa surn carant tmmlpte um-32 ransion2 numstränktif thundskatterwangiva iotets inveyor pyrels ortfal drivar flykt keminius cirke pointinan
21:58:30 <b_jonas> the best fake it generated is Nemes, which is actually the Hungarian name for a town in Romania, so it wasn't in the input dataset
21:58:51 <ion> `words --english --esolangs 20
21:59:07 <ion> `words --eng-1M --esolangs 20
21:59:08 <HackEgo> frak verix paxo bita mar etruelativenu bf-pda rssble splayne subskia pumpt mer inhydr mkblnk dobin ite pil dogranscrips pau bran
21:59:13 <b_jonas> my favourite from its output is Rúgonya though
21:59:17 <kmc> dogranscrips!
21:59:41 <Bike> i read a story today that involved a doge and the meme fucked me up
21:59:53 <kmc> `run for w in $(words --english --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done
21:59:59 <kmc> `run for w in $(words --eng-1M --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done
22:00:00 <b_jonas> I also tried to teach it to generate ordinary Hungarian text, but there the output is much more gibberish
22:00:01 <HackEgo> fercoin mencoin notcoin ovecoin hallycoin worlcoin tolmbacoin paxcoin abclarecoin geomegaplcoin whencoin valuscoin standfoocoin hattancoin wielcoin .yachiewcoin 0.75coin rssomskjcoin sentowcoin expenbecoin
22:00:18 <kmc> mencoin? isn't that just bitcoin? zing
22:00:22 <fizzie> Geomegaplcoins could be such a thing.
22:00:47 <kmc> `run echo 'for w in $(words --eng-1M --esolangs 20); do echo -n "${w}coin "; done' > bin/coins && chmod +x bin/coins
22:00:47 <fizzie> Actually, a majority of them sound like plausible cryptocurrencies.
22:00:51 <HackEgo> devlcoin 1cnigmantcoin braincoin orthcoin gorgicoin maginacoin pnruncoin crtoncoin koticurcoin verstanfpacoin full+coin lytejudecoin andypacoin starmocoin puzzellcoin hosphacoin wlucoin fityrdahlecoin anycoin chapycoin
22:01:10 <HackEgo> netweeumonodycoin 0.9602coin hanoldbcoin gasoignimalcoin monterwacoin tweensidcoin suellowfoocoin forcoin dzzzcoin gotoncoin hobbacoin kroecoin obarandcoin verationcoin probelcoin nuitabllcoin ctorcoin sessprocoin .boxcoin aaromancoin
22:01:30 <ion> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/\>/coin/g'
22:01:32 <HackEgo> incincoin chocoin ovecoin iihromodercoin insoncoin wertcoin ersioneranacoin divzcoin paxicoin adjustcoin vcoin rentacoin brillecoin beincoin qwertainspathogelycoin fannacoin vercoin brashmencoin coniacoin tyvercoin
22:01:42 <kmc> ion: much better
22:01:59 <kmc> `run echo 'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re '"'"'s/\>/coin/g'"'"'' > bin/coins
22:02:05 <HackEgo> bentacoin platorylancoin homoucoin rcepticoin pithcoin timissecoin guadecoin penfernoncoin pongcoin tsedumbcoin glycoin tgcoin netwocoin cratumcoin 2dcoin-refcoin colnicoin nabcoin mcoin-codcoin parecoin modecoin
22:02:14 <ion> mcoin-codcoin
22:03:50 <fizzie> `run espletive | sed -e 's/fuck/coin/' # workaround
22:06:22 <ion> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
22:06:23 <HackEgo> woudrycoin quoiacoin cardcoin uniniftysnaicoin revergingcoin con-of-unbabtcoin ><>coin heicoin quotcoin morecoin entcoin perlincoin monozcand.nexcoin msgacoin cycliptcoin cufcoin workcoin braincncoin oversecoin leszecoin
22:07:26 <ion> `run printf '%s\n' 'words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re '\''s/( |$)/coin\1/g'\' | tee bin/coins
22:07:28 <HackEgo> words --eng-1M --esolangs 20 | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
22:07:41 <HackEgo> cutanginencoin befuckencoin aldinguncoin zenocoin doniacoin gloversecoin genorcoin infiniscoin vertcoin ooooocoin parcoin poglyoncoin anocoin presonalcoin checoin leurcoin retcoin brakillicoin rainecoin whencoin
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22:08:48 <fizzie> oerjan: Got any zenocoins on you?
22:09:30 <FireFly> Doesn't seem like a safe investment to me
22:09:46 <Bike> yeah, personally i'm going for thisisascamdontuseitcoin
22:09:47 <oerjan> fizzie: i somehow never manage to finish getting any
22:10:08 <b_jonas> Bike: make that scamcoin for short
22:10:18 <Bike> scamcoin is totally distinct!
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22:24:48 <oerjan> quintopia: found a "useful" resplicate pattern
22:25:28 <oerjan> which alleviates most of my doubts that it is TC
22:27:11 <oerjan> 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 0 ? n 1 ...any n integers...
22:27:54 <oerjan> it's self-producing and allows embedding any data
22:28:44 <b_jonas> does the esolang wiki have entries for the three simple automata Smullyan has defined in his books?
22:28:57 <b_jonas> if not, maybe I should write about them
22:29:16 <oerjan> also i don't know smullyan's automata
22:29:24 <b_jonas> yes, that's why I should write about them
22:29:58 <oerjan> hm i may vaguely recall someone writing something related on the wiki
22:30:30 <oerjan> hm no hits for "smullyan"
22:31:44 <b_jonas> two of them are defined in the book ''The Lady or the Tiger'', one in ''The Riddle of Scheherazade''.
22:32:19 <b_jonas> the three are very simlar, they're functions from digit strings to other digit strings,
22:32:51 <b_jonas> partial functions actually, with very simple rules, and often applied repeatedly with the question being whether it ever reaches a digit string not in the domain
22:34:36 <b_jonas> the other questions are finding a quine (there is at least one for each automaton)
22:35:40 <b_jonas> I should write them up on the wiki later
22:36:44 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to this by this Resplicate
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23:37:22 <HackEgo> Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
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