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00:17:00 <zzo38> The 16-bit instruction set that I have made up, now I wrote complete documenation of it: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/cpu16.txt
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00:36:25 <Sgeo> Four Chords always ends with Scar, right?
00:36:34 <Sgeo> That would make sense, but Wikipedia doesn't say that :(
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00:40:50 <zzo38> Why do you think it does?
00:44:02 <Sgeo> zzo38: all the renditions I've heard end with Scar, and the lyrics of Scar fit perfectly with the theme of Four Chords
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02:41:20 <Sgeo> "The act of merging can introduce bugs, either through incompatible semantics of the two branches, or due to mistakes reconciling the two branches during the merge."
02:41:26 <Sgeo> Screw text-based version control
02:41:44 <Sgeo> Although even semantic code editing can't fix some merge problems, I guess
02:42:08 <Bike> nothing in your quote has anything to do with text, unless i'm missing something
02:48:38 <Sgeo> '"Snowden claims that he's won and that his mission is accomplished," Clapper also noted. "If that is so, I call on him and his accomplices to facilitate the return of the remaining stolen documents that have not yet been exposed to prevent even more damage to U.S. security."'
02:48:59 <Sgeo> Bike: text-based version control makes mistakes liklier, I beliebe
02:49:19 <Sgeo> ^^um, how is Clapper expecting 'documents to be returned'?
02:49:33 <Sgeo> Even if every concern of his is valid, he's asking for the impossible
02:52:48 <Bike> Maybe you're the impossible one, sgeo.
03:00:43 <elliott> it is AI-complete to do merges without breaking things
03:01:01 <elliott> Sgeo: turn over the disks, presumably
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03:41:29 <newsham> you're taking clapper's statement at face value
03:41:49 <newsham> instead of interpretting it as a propaganda campaign
03:42:06 <newsham> that is why it doesnt seem to make sense
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04:56:28 <zzo38> The AWK program 'x++' will output everything except for the first line. You could use this in a shebang line.
04:57:49 <zzo38> Well, it won't work if it overflows, I suppose, but usually you won't have a lot of lines.
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05:34:43 <pikhq> Is awk specified to use an int instead of a bignum?
05:37:56 <pikhq> Ah, worse, it's a float.
05:38:14 <pikhq> So no overflow, but...
05:39:23 <pikhq> The spec is quite specific. awk uses doubles as its numeric type.
05:39:37 <pikhq> I didn't expect that.
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05:53:01 <monotone> "#!/usr/bin/tail +2" (or "--lines=+2") works similarly.
05:53:45 <newsham> french thunks terminal consonants
05:53:47 <Bike> doesn't one of the scripts round here do that
05:54:04 <zzo38> monotone: Yes I suppose that may work too
05:54:17 <monotone> I remember writing one that did that, actually.
05:55:04 <newsham> i found out my favorite rpn calculator uses double's internally
05:55:26 <newsham> even though it often prints them as integers (in various bases)
05:56:16 <monotone> I'd look it up in the hgfs repo but I forget where that is.
05:56:23 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
05:56:27 <Bike> errrrr what was it
05:56:34 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
05:57:39 <monotone> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/d648a4814871/bin/cats
05:58:15 <quintopia> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Richard_Petri
05:59:11 <HackEgo> Using built-in specs. \ COLLECT_GCC=gcc \ COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-linux-gnu/4.7/lto-wrapper \ Target: x86_64-linux-gnu \ Configured with: ../src/configure -v --with-pkgversion='Debian 4.7.2-5' --with-bugurl=file:///usr/share/doc/gcc-4.7/README.Bugs --enable-languages=c,c++,go,fortran,objc,obj-c++ --prefix=/usr --program-suffix=-4.7
06:00:08 <newsham> `echo main(){for(;;)fork();} > x.c
06:00:09 <HackEgo> main(){for(;;)fork();} > x.c
06:02:42 <newsham> `python -c "import os; while 1 : os.fork()
06:02:43 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "import os; while 1 : os.fork() \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
06:02:46 <newsham> `python -c "import os; while 1 : os.fork()"
06:02:47 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "import os; while 1 : os.fork()" \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
06:05:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
06:05:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
06:06:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
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06:18:22 <monotone> Defeating fork bombs through syntax errors!
06:36:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sudo: not found
06:36:38 <Bike> i'm like 80% haskell's in there somewhere.
06:36:44 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
06:36:49 <HackEgo> ` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ? \ ¿ \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ complain \ complaints \ danddreclist \ define \ delquote \ delvs \ dis86 \ e \ echo \ echo \ ello \
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06:37:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
06:38:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /opt/ghc/bin: No such file or directory
06:38:13 <Bike> `run ls | grep hs
06:38:22 <Bike> `ghc -O2 Test.hs
06:38:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found
06:39:10 <HackEgo> bin/`: ASCII text \ bin/̊: ASCII text \ bin/?: POSIX shell script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable \ bin/¿: ASCII text \ bin/@: Perl script, ASCII text executable \ bin/؟: ASCII text \ bin/: empty \ bin/e: UTF-8 Unicode text \ bin/h: Perl script, ASCII text executable \ bin/q: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically li
06:39:28 <HackEgo> :::::::::::::: \ bin/` \ :::::::::::::: \ exec bash -c "$1" \ :::::::::::::: \ bin/̊ \ :::::::::::::: \ echo hi \ :::::::::::::: \ bin/? \ :::::::::::::: \ #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \
06:40:42 <HackEgo> xYzþ9zLɩ \ >.wpx'.3qJ3nI.%S*ҋ;I[RO-%H|)h~Q2vP5rP*GHuLZ0%lWWSh.8qLXz״:Ys>`G PNIt_qfaaF`Rjc%t9EGD%k""O'
06:41:02 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
06:41:17 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
06:41:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: id;: not found
06:42:20 <Bike> run is ur friend
06:42:23 <quintopia> `? noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodl
06:42:24 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl is the correct spelling
06:42:44 <quintopia> how is it computing the number of o's to put
06:43:42 <Bike> fucking magic, imo
06:45:03 <HackEgo> warning: bad ps syntax, perhaps a bogus '-'? \ See http://gitorious.org/procps/procps/blobs/master/Documentation/FAQ \ PID TTY STAT TIME COMMAND \ 286 ? S 0:00 /init \ 288 ? S 0:00 sh -c 'env' 'PATH=/hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin' 'HACKENV=/hackenv' 'http_proxy=http://127.0.0.1:3128' '
06:45:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/98076 /hackenv/a /hackenv/app.sh /hackenv/bdsmreclist /hackenv/bin /hackenv/canary /hackenv/cat /hackenv/complaints /hackenv/:-D /hackenv/dog /hackenv/etc /hackenv/factor /hackenv/fb /hackenv/fb.c /hackenv/head /hackenv/hello /hackenv/hello.c /hackenv/ibin /hackenv/index.html /hackenv/interps /hackenv/lib /hackenv/paste /hackenv/pref /h
06:45:41 <HackEgo> /hackenv/dog: UTF-8 Unicode text
06:46:05 <HackEgo> /hackenv/canary: ASCII text
06:46:32 <newsham> `run echo >/tmp/f; ls -ld /tmp/f
06:46:33 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 1 Mar 8 06:46 /tmp/f
06:47:11 <newsham> `run file /hackenv/interps
06:47:12 <HackEgo> /hackenv/interps: directory
06:47:17 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ axo \ befunge \ bfjoust \ bf_txtgen \ boof \ build.sh \ cfunge \ c-intercal \ clc-intercal \ dimensifuck \ egobch \ egobf \ fukyorbrane \ gcccomp \ gforth_quit \ ghc \ glass \ glypho \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ Makefile \ malbolge \ pbrain \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ unlambda
06:47:32 <newsham> `run file /hackenv/interps/lambda
06:47:32 <HackEgo> /hackenv/interps/lambda: directory
06:47:38 <newsham> `run ls /hackenv/interps/lambda
06:47:39 <HackEgo> defs.pickle \ evaluator.py \ lambda.py \ parser.py \ README \ tokenizer.py \ USED_VERSION
06:47:58 <newsham> `run head /hackenv/interps/lambda/README
06:47:59 <HackEgo> Lambda calculus interpreter \ (c) Nikita Ayzikovsky, 2006 \ \ Usage: \ \ run lambda.py, which reads a single-line lambda calculus program from stdin. \ \ Syntax: \ \ A program can optionally contain any number of definitions, followed by
06:48:50 <newsham> `run ls /hackenv/interps/ghc/
06:49:00 <newsham> `run /hackenv/interps/ghc/runghc -v
06:50:43 <newsham> `run find / -type f -print0 |xargs -0 grep newsham
06:50:50 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
06:51:14 <newsham> `run (find / -type f -print0 |xargs -0 grep newsham) 2>/dev/null
06:51:44 <HackEgo> Binary file /proc/288/task/288/cmdline matches \ Binary file /proc/290/task/290/cmdline matches
06:53:57 <newsham> `run cat /proc/cmdline /proc/version
06:53:58 <HackEgo> initrd=/usr/bin/../lib/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/19304.conf mem=256M con1=null,fd:3 con2=fd:5,fd:8 con=null,null root=98:0 \ Linux version 3.13.0-umlbox (hackbot@codu) (gcc version 4.7.2 (Debian 4.7.2-5) ) #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014
06:55:23 <HackEgo> agpgart audio audio1 audio2 audio3 audioctl console core dsp dsp1 dsp2 dsp3 fd full kmem loop0 loop1 loop2 loop3 loop4 loop5 loop6 loop7 mem midi0 midi00 midi01 midi02 midi03 midi1 midi2 midi3 mixer mixer1 mixer2 mixer3 mpu401data mpu401stat null port ptmx pts ram ram0 ram1 ram10 ram11 ram12 ram13 ram14 ram15 ram16 ram2 ram3 ram4 ram5 ram6 ram7 ram
06:57:19 <HackEgo> processor: 0 \ vendor_id: User Mode Linux \ model name: UML \ mode: skas \ host: Linux codu 3.2.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.2.46-1+deb7u1 x86_64 \ bogomips: 2151.21
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07:03:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /sys/kern/debugfs: No such file or directory
07:03:47 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
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07:11:34 <Bike> can you do this in /msg
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09:47:08 <zzo38> Do you know if GCC can optimize uses of strlen? Such as x+=strlen(x); and so on
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10:00:55 <zzo38> Here is a quine in SQL: with q(q) as (select 'with q(q) as (select ''#'') select replace(q,x''23'',replace('''''''','''''''''''')) from q;') select replace(q,x'23',replace(q,'''','''''')) from q;
10:01:26 <zzo38> There are a lot of apostrophes in it, and a lot in a line at once
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10:29:17 <fizzie> zzo38: I'm not sure it can really optimize x += strlen(x), though I know it can "constant-fold" strlen out if it can determine at compile-time the length of the string.
10:30:07 <Jafet> Well, it can optimize any further usage of x.
10:32:25 <fizzie> It does seem to turn void f(char *x) { x += strlen(x); *x = 'a'; *(x+1) = 0; } into the relatively literal call strlen; add sequence rather than call some strlen-like function that'd directly return a pointer to the end, I mean.
10:33:43 <fizzie> The hypothetical function would probably be called stplen by way of analogy from strcpy/stpcpy.
10:34:23 <fizzie> (Or maybe not. Having "len" in the name would be kind of confusing.)
10:38:38 <itsy> Anyone interested in entering the Robot Battle tournament? http://www.robotbattle.com/registry/index.php?act=calendar&code=showevent&eventid=64
10:39:42 <Jafet> For a moment, I thought that involved actual robots
10:40:35 <itsy> Not quite. It's similar to Robocode, RobotWar, CROBOTS, etc.
10:41:31 <fizzie> zzo38: Jafet: Also when doing -Os (which makes it inline the strlen), gcc seems to do a rather suboptimal (string in rdi) or rcx, -1; mov rdx, rdi; repnz scasb; not rcx; lea rax, [rdx+rcx-1] rather than just using the resulting rdi value from the repnz scasb.
10:41:59 <oerjan> <Bike> i'm like 80% haskell's in there somewhere. <-- dammit Gregor
10:42:53 <Jafet> “Powered by Invision Power Board v1.1.2 © 2003” I can't even remember what exploits to use from that long ago
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10:53:40 <oerjan> newsham: most of the stuff int /hackenv/interp is basically copies of stuff in EgoBot; only some of it actually _works_ after the move.
10:54:30 <oerjan> @tell newsham most of the stuff int /hackenv/interp is basically copies of stuff in EgoBot; only some of it actually _works_ after the move. and ghc obviously stopped working when HackEgo itself was moved.
10:58:47 <fizzie> `run python -c 'import sys; print sys.maxunicode'
10:59:28 <oerjan> wait does that mean something actually _improved_ in the move?
10:59:58 <HackEgo> [U+1D0B3 BYZANTINE MUSICAL SYMBOL MARTYRIA PLAGIOS TETARTOS ICHOS]
11:00:56 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e 's/{1,4}/{1,5}/' bin/unicode # well in that case!
11:01:14 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U+)?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ print u'Unknown characte
11:02:06 <fizzie> `run unidecode $(unicode 12345)
11:02:07 <HackEgo> [U+12345 CUNEIFORM SIGN URU TIMES KI]
11:05:44 <fizzie> Fortunately, none of the current Unicode character names of length <= 5 (ARC, LEO, NOR, SUN, XOR, ANKH, FUSE, GEAR, JOIN, JUNO, MINY, NAND, TINY, TRUE, ANGLE, ARIES, BREVE, CARET, CARON, CERES, CLOUD, COLON, COMET, COMMA, EARTH, FROWN, HOUSE, LIBRA, NABLA, PLUTO, PRIME, RATIO, SLOPE, SMILE, SPACE, TILDE, UNION, VESTA, VIRGO, WATCH) consists of hexadecimal digits only.
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11:22:06 <fizzie> `run python3 --version # maybe...
11:22:06 <HackEgo> bash: python3: command not found
11:22:13 <fizzie> Well, okay, no, let's not get too greedy here.
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12:27:29 <oerjan> i hope y'all agree that "Seosniperdotnet" is an unacceptable username. although i _guess_ it could be ironic.
12:29:07 <elliott> they're just an anti-capitalist, they want to nip CEOs in the bud and also can't spell
12:29:39 <elliott> look I spent a long time trying to think of a better pun reading of it than that okay!
12:30:49 <elliott> imagining a terrible esolang based solely on okays and help-related initialisms, right now
12:31:01 <Jafet> I've heard of corporate “head hunting”, but this is a bit too much.
12:31:41 <oerjan> elliott: maybe it's a Sgeo sniper. who knows who may have angered.
12:33:26 <elliott> a Sgeo sniper with broken d and . keys
12:35:47 <oerjan> where is there a broken d key?
12:36:26 <oerjan> you've been awake all night, right?
12:37:10 * oerjan brings out the gotobedinator
12:37:45 <elliott> d is basically an upside down g, okay?
12:38:01 <elliott> you're not wrong though. I have been up all night.
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13:11:18 <Taneb> elliott, did you get lucky?
13:14:57 <Taneb> Meanwhile, I don't know where I will be living after july and that scares me
13:15:09 <fizzie> elliott: Did you at least have some "good fun"?
13:15:16 <fizzie> As opposed to bad fun, I guess.
13:16:06 <ion> I bet elliott likes bad fun.
13:35:52 <nooodl> ion are you saying guns are good fun
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17:51:59 <Sgeo> Should I eat what I usually eat or should I try something new, that I haven't tried in years?
17:58:35 <Sgeo> <nisstyre> So I saw that Wolfram Language thing and one of the things he's claiming to be revolutionary is the ability to easily mix images and code
17:58:35 <Sgeo> <nisstyre> apparently Wolfram also has an irrational hatred for Lisp, not surprised
17:59:13 <nisstyre> if it's not obvious to others, you can do that in Racket
17:59:57 <Melvar> How would that even work?
18:00:20 <nisstyre> Melvar: you can copy and paste images into DrRacket and manipulate them as normal data, they get serialized in a string form in the source file
18:00:57 <nisstyre> they're meant to be opened with DrRacket
18:03:42 <Melvar> Do they get transcoded to some specific format, or do you need to have the editor and libraries know every image format?
18:09:29 <Sgeo> I've been tempted to buy French Toast Crunch from Canada, real French Toast is probably better
18:11:46 <nisstyre> Sgeo: yes probably, and with real maple syrup to put on it
18:12:01 <Sgeo> Maple syrup goes on french toast?
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18:12:17 <Sgeo> Is this something the bagel place would... do? Would they give me maple syrup when I order french toast?
18:12:21 <Sgeo> How does this work?
18:12:33 <Sgeo> (The bagel place sells french toast. I don't know why)
18:14:06 <nisstyre> Sgeo: I don't know what bagel place you're referring to
18:14:22 <Sgeo> http://www.stuffabagel.com/
18:14:58 <Sgeo> I don't really need maple syrup
18:15:03 <Sgeo> If they give it to me that's fine
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18:15:32 <Sgeo> Does French Toast have dairy?
18:17:48 <Sgeo> Can't hurt to take another Lactaid
18:17:57 <Sgeo> I already had a buttered bagel today
18:18:08 <Sgeo> I only recently learned that butter is dairy
18:25:24 <Sgeo> http://www.fark.com/comments/8171751/Manhunt-closed-streets-campus-lockdown-canceled-classes-all-due-to-what-police-call-a-high-end-game-of-telephone
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18:47:32 <b_jonas> sqlite3 quine (I'd like to the mailing list archives but it seems it's readable only for members) => http://dpaste.com/1703632/
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18:48:18 <b_jonas> go subscribe the list and write a better one than the ones already posted
18:48:22 <b_jonas> possibly a shorter non-empty one
18:48:39 <b_jonas> but I'd like to see interesting not necessarily short ones as well
18:52:41 <b_jonas> the corresponding perl quine is: print+("print+(","\"",",","\\",")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]")[g1012131121212133121414=~/./g]
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19:28:38 <FireFly> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2014-March/026446.html this is just silly...
19:28:49 <oerjan> <b_jonas> sqlite3 quine [...] <-- that looks rather longer than zzo38's SQL quine he recently pasted
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19:29:38 <oerjan> <zzo38> Here is a quine in SQL: with q(q) as (select 'with q(q) as (select ''#'') select replace(q,x''23'',replace('''''''','''''''''''')) from q;') select replace(q,x'23',replace(q,'''','''''')) from q;
19:30:50 <oerjan> i don't know either SQL or sqlite3 so i don't know if that would be legal in the other
19:32:18 <oerjan> that perl quine reminds me of the Glass quine i wrote, although the numbers mean something completely different.
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19:39:12 <Sgeo> They gave me 'Breakfast syrup', and butter packets
19:39:20 <Sgeo> Barely used the butter packets, used one breakfast syrup
19:39:23 <b_jonas> here's another sqlite quine: http://dpaste.com/1703768/
19:40:12 <b_jonas> but again, the point of this quine with the numbers is that the same general idea can be implemented in almost any non-esoteric programming language
19:40:14 <Sgeo> I think the first dpasted sqlite quine isn't intended to be the best SQL quine, but just one made using a generic method to make quines
19:40:39 <b_jonas> how many numbers you need differs wildly, but it's still possible
19:44:04 <b_jonas> here's another perl one: print+("\\","\"",",","print+(",")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]")[3,1,0,0,1,2,1,0,1,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,3,1,2,1,4,1,4]
19:45:32 <b_jonas> wow, I didn't even remember this crazy unpack quine: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=835076
19:46:27 <b_jonas> the thread for that has nice perl quines by other authors
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20:04:55 <zzo38> oerjan: That SQL quine I wrote is for SQLite.
20:06:10 <zzo38> If you have SQLite then you can even try it by yourself.
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20:11:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: That SQL quine is good too
20:12:24 <zzo38> The one you posted at http://dpaste.com/1703768/
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20:41:52 <Sgeo> There seems to be a thing called Agorism. It is unrelated to Agora
20:43:10 <Taneb> Is it related to the original meaning of the word "agora"?
20:45:52 <oerjan> yes, "Agorists consider their message to be scientific because science is an appeal to reason, which they believe is only possible in the Agora or free market."
20:48:03 <oerjan> which reminds me that i'm fairly sure (wait, shouldn't i be saying "vaguely recall" somewhere?) i saw a yudkowsky post about the distinction between professing rationalism and actually being rational.
20:48:44 <Sgeo> "I wonder, if someone generated a list with all possible credit card PIN codes, would people panic too?"
20:49:12 <oerjan> bloody neighbors making maybe-party noises again.
20:49:44 <zzo38> Sgeo: Are they still limited to four digits or are longer passwords possible?
20:49:48 <oerjan> > replicateM 4 ['0'..'9']
20:49:50 <lambdabot> ["0000","0001","0002","0003","0004","0005","0006","0007","0008","0009","0010...
20:50:00 * oerjan ogles at idris-ircslave
20:50:02 <Sgeo> Still limited to 4 digits. It was someone commenting on http://directory.io
20:50:12 <Sgeo> Which lists all Bitcoin addresses and their private keys
20:51:28 <oerjan> ah a library of babel prank
20:53:18 <int-e> > [0..] >>= (`replicateM` "01")
20:53:19 <lambdabot> ["","0","1","00","01","10","11","000","001","010","011","100","101","110","1...
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20:54:16 <Sgeo> I guess I should try to get our own idris bot up at some point
20:55:05 <int-e> or one of the bots has to learn channel-specific prefixes. *coughs*
20:55:40 <oerjan> @run "it's not that hard if we just remember..."
20:55:42 <lambdabot> "it's not that hard if we just remember..."
20:56:31 <int-e> idris-ircslave: > 1
20:56:53 <int-e> so how do we "solve" the other half of the "problem"?
20:56:58 <elliott> has anyone used idris-ircslave except to see it break lambdabot
20:58:53 <zzo38> Sgeo: Did they actually create the database or calculate it when the file is requested? If it is an actual database I expect it would require way too much disk space more than you have, and if they could even do that, why is it indexed by private key?
20:59:27 <Sgeo> Calculated on request.
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21:00:19 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, it is what I thought, otherwise it would not only be very difficult but they wouldn't index it by private key.
21:03:13 <fizzie> I think there exist some EMV cards that have six-digit PINs.
21:04:30 <fizzie> Anecdotal evidence from the Internet: "Swiss banks issue debit cards with 6 digit PIN. In Italy 5 digit PIN are common."
21:05:47 <fizzie> (Equally anecdotally, there are some PIN entry terminals that have problems with >4 digits.)
21:06:40 <oerjan> there is something bloody fishy about my laptop's brightness control
21:07:19 <oerjan> as in, it's been gradually requiring me to slide it more and more down not to be too bright, and now it's all the way down
21:08:57 <oerjan> i'm thinking i should turn it all the way up and wait until it resets itself to normal while still there. but i don't know how long i'll have to wait.
21:09:34 <FreeFull> Could be broken firmware or such
21:10:37 <zzo38> I think you should allow the password to be 4 digits at minimum and perhaps 16 digits at maximum.
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21:11:06 <elliott> oerjan: your laptop is becoming a star. this is perfectly expected behaviour
21:11:56 <zzo38> Even regardless of the length of the password, the current "chip and PIN" system just isn't really that much more secure than the old system.
21:12:54 <zzo38> The merchant can still steal passwords, or display an incorrect price, and then if someone physically steals the card they can use it.
21:14:10 <zzo38> I have once designed a better system, but I just wrote it on a paper. It involves the keypad having a port on it that the customer can connect their own keypad to instead of swiping a credit card (swiping a card is still provided, but isn't needed).
21:14:13 <FreeFull> Card skimmers will still exist
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21:17:47 <zzo38> Yes, although my system would make it more secure for people who have opted the high security option and have programmed their own keypads rather than using the merchant's keypads.
21:18:18 <Sgeo> How do you avoid skimming at the separate port?
21:20:00 <fizzie> With crypto, presumably.
21:20:39 <fizzie> You just have the merchant's terminal send out transaction details, which your self-programmed keypad device then shows for you for verification, and then signs.
21:21:01 <elliott> or you could just make the cards do crypto.
21:21:33 <zzo38> By using a secure protocol. You could still charge someone and give them no product (which is much more easily caught, though), but the transaction and amount goes through the port, so you cannot be charge a wrong amount and the password (which doesn't even have to be a normal password) cannot be caught.
21:21:45 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, mainly like that.
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21:25:42 <fizzie> The EMV cards do crypto, at least, so you shouldn't be able to "skim" cards so that you can clone one. (But you obviously can catch the PIN. And there are some assorted vulnerabilities; like you used to be able to make a terminal that reads the magnetic stripe data during the chip transaction, so you catch both the PIN and a stripe-only copy, and then just do the stripe fallback thing.)
21:27:07 <fizzie> (And there was some skip-PIN-entry thing, too.)
21:30:15 <zzo38> And if the terminal steals the password and then you can physically steal the card and use that, and then you could still alter the price to display the wrong amount.
21:31:56 <fizzie> My credit card got misused once, but as far as I know it was really just old-fashioned stuff; using it in webshops where just knowing the number is enough.
21:33:21 <zzo38> That is why, that is no good. It should be made, the customer can opt for a high-security option at the time the card is issued (and then they will have a private key which they can program into their own devices).
21:33:42 <zzo38> It works for internet too; the same transaction is possible over internet just as easily.
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21:37:43 <zzo38> However, for internet there is a better way I can think of: You would use SSH to connect to your account and then issue a SPLIT command in order to make the payment. It can forward to the recipient similar to how SMTP does it.
21:46:00 <Sgeo> Ugh, it feels like I've been doing nothing but eating all day
21:46:30 <Sgeo> Which is certainly better than not eating all day, at least
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22:48:54 <Sgeo> Why does Randall Munroe advertise games?
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22:50:30 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/721/
22:50:52 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/721/
22:51:01 <ion> Why does Sgeo advertise xkcd?
22:51:02 <Sgeo> "The game is currently in development and the goal is to release it in downloadable form for consoles and PC/Mac/Linux. There is no announced date and platform yet. There is no publicly released demo at this point. There will be one when the game is released though, so please be patient :) Thanks."
22:52:47 <zzo38> That's silly. Linux is a operating system kernel, which can run on many kind of computer. PC is a computer, which can run many operating systems. (Mac is both kind)
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22:55:02 <zzo38> (It might be sensible if "PC" means it is a bootable file, and "Linux" means it is provided in a source file that is portable to any Linux systems, but this isn't commonly the case; especially game programs need to know about the hardware too and not just the Linux kernel.)
22:55:53 <Sgeo> I think the person who wrote it was using PC to indicate 'Windows'. Language shifting with usage..
22:56:20 <Sgeo> Also, I was more quoting because I was hoping the game was released, and sad that it isn't
22:56:51 <zzo38> Yes, but it is a bad way, and anyways there are different version of Windows getting confusing too now
22:57:19 <Bike> yeah what if the game is for DOS, Mac OS 7, and Minix. c'mon
23:21:14 <FreeFull> What if the game is for KolibriOS?
23:25:09 <Sgeo> I should try NetHack 4
23:25:29 <Sgeo> Although as far as I'm concerned, the name is an April 1st joke
23:26:46 <oerjan> now you'll make ais523 sad
23:27:38 <Taneb> I should learn to play nethack at some point
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23:34:10 <b_jonas> Sgeo: the name is half serious half joke (you should be used to that in #esoteric)
23:39:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: there is sort of a cheap way to do that. I think there's a planned design where the credit card hardware itself has a switch the human can trigger to enable wireless "paypass" transactions. you could similarly have multiple switches for different orders of magnitude of payment via terminal,
23:39:35 <b_jonas> though it'd be a bit difficult to fit them all on a standard sized credit card.
23:41:49 <zzo38> That wireless would make it worse.
23:42:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: the wireless _does_ make it worse already
23:42:17 <zzo38> Yes, I agree it would make it much worse already
23:42:40 <b_jonas> one is that with a non-standard wireless terminal you can access debit cards without the knowledge of the owner,
23:43:24 <b_jonas> the other is that it doesn't require a pin for low amount transactions, and the amount limit for this can't even be defined by the owner
23:44:08 <Taneb> Twitch Plays Nethack would be interesting
23:44:58 <b_jonas> I don't understand why, because it seems as if it should be technically possible:
23:45:08 <zzo38> b_jonas: Those aren't the only problems with it.
23:45:30 <b_jonas> wireless "paypass" payment requires a connection to the bank afterall, so couldn't they technically query the limit I set?
23:45:50 <b_jonas> there's already a limit for purchases that I can define and override,
23:46:07 <b_jonas> so why can't they add a separate limit for pin-less purchases?
23:46:34 <b_jonas> (and yeah, the ability to set a longer pin would also be nice)
23:46:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: what other problems then?
23:47:18 <Sgeo> "Rumors that Pat has since been executed by the other DevTeam members for these frequent breaches of secrecy remain unconfirmed.
23:47:57 <zzo38> The problem is that *they* are defining the limits and lengths and everything like that. Also, wireless has several security issues: You could interfere with a payment, whether or not a switch is required. And soneone who steals the card can still use the switch, so it still doesn't help.
23:48:05 <zzo38> And if there are multiple cards, they will interfere with each other, too.
23:48:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the switch helps against attackers who try to use non-standard terminals to access your card without your knowledge
23:49:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but that won't affect against interference.
23:49:30 <fizzie> AIUI, people are already using foil-lined wallets for that.
23:49:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: for a stolen card, it's the amount limit for pin-less transaction that protects you, and the ability to revoke your card if it's stolen
23:50:19 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think foil-lined really works. it's like tinfoil hats.
23:50:25 <zzo38> My proposal is to keep the present (non-wireless) system and then require the bank to provide a "high security" option to customers who request it; they would use their own private key to program their own devices (using protocols with public specifications), and can define the limits and password (or other method) yourself.
23:50:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: I was under the impression that some of them even did something, but I certainly haven't investigated this.
23:51:05 <b_jonas> fizzie: some of them probably do
23:51:16 <b_jonas> fizzie: just lining your purse with tinfoil doesn't
23:53:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: Someone could still make many small transactions, especially if the merchant steals it. The ability to revoke your card helps, but still not quite enough. You could not notice it has been stolen (especially if he is good at returning it in secret too, and/or if it is wireless, even if it does have switches), or it could be disputed too much.
23:54:09 <fizzie> "Our reporter offered her own homemade shield constructed of duct tape and lined with aluminium foil. It provided better protection than eight of the 10 commercial products, including a stainless-steel “RFID blocking” wallet selling online for about $60."
23:56:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: I must say though that I'm more worried about having my id card or keys stolen:
23:56:06 <zzo38> Higher security should be applied to cheques too, by (if the account holder requests it), requre a digital signature to be written on the cheque.
23:56:40 <b_jonas> an id card can be misused way more than a bank card, including an attacker walking into the bank and getting cash from my account without a limit,
23:57:19 <b_jonas> has a long expiry time so it can be abused for a very long time, and I'm not confident I can cancel it everywhere effectively,
23:57:40 <zzo38> If someone steal money I have in my pocket, they cannot steal anything more than what I got. Furthermore, I don't carry any ID card when I don't need it so therefore nobody can use it.
23:57:54 <b_jonas> the keys let an attacker steal more stuff from the apartment, and the locks are difficult to replace.
23:58:12 <zzo38> Yes, that is true.
23:58:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can't not carry an id card. I don't carry a card with my home address when I don't need it.
23:58:19 <zzo38> The lock could also be broken or tampered with
23:58:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: and people who drive _really_ can't choose to not carry an id card.
23:58:50 <zzo38> Yes, you do need a driving license
23:58:53 <b_jonas> I don't drive, but even I need one.
23:59:18 <zzo38> But you can try to tell the bank not to accept a driving license as a valid ID for your account.
23:59:35 <b_jonas> the lock could be tampered, but it's easier to destroy the balcony door than to tamper with the lock.