00:00:23 <zzo38> If the key to your house also requires a password, the password would be inside on your own keypad so it is harder to steal than credit card passwords.
00:00:44 <zzo38> Especially if you don't use the police connections they provide, and install your own instead.
00:00:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I have to have the bank accept at least one of my ids, because I have to be able to have business with them. I can probably tell them not to accept a card once it's stolen, but I'm not quite confident they would comply.
00:00:55 <zzo38> Such thing can confuse people who try to enter without permission.
00:01:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, one ID may be needed, but it can be a different one than normally is.
00:01:45 <b_jonas> what? you can't practically have your key require a password, because then you'd risk shutting yourself outside drunk after a party.
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00:02:09 <zzo38> I don't like to get drunk.
00:02:45 <zzo38> And the password would be on the inside of the door so after you open the door you have to push it in, making it harder for other people to watch from the outside.
00:03:06 <zzo38> Maybe make the bank ID that requires to be sealed with a password and/or digital signature.
00:03:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: that might be true, though I'm not sure it's practical because there's a limit on the number of id cards I can have (probably 4) and I need them for many things. it's still a good idea and worth to investigate.
00:03:49 <zzo38> There is an article in 2600 where he replaces some of his cards every few months, and uses his passport mainly as ID
00:04:17 <b_jonas> also, you need some sort of plan for what to do with the bank if that ID you use for the bank is stolen.
00:04:36 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how that could work.
00:04:55 <zzo38> I also prefer to pay in cash in most thing, although I do have a bank account too.
00:05:09 <b_jonas> paying for cash for everything is expensive.
00:05:46 <zzo38> Why is it expensive to do that in Europe?
00:06:16 <b_jonas> and if you pay in cash for everything, you have to carry lots of cash often, which means you very likely lose more if it's stolen then if they steal your cards.
00:06:38 <zzo38> You only have to carry the money you use, not all of it.
00:07:12 <zzo38> And if it money with holes so it can be tied to your clothing then it is more difficult to steal.
00:07:17 <b_jonas> sure, and I don't have to carry much because I can pay with a card if necessary, especially for high valued transactions.
00:07:57 <b_jonas> as for tied to your clothing, well sure, not exactly tied, but I do make my valuables physically hard to steal,
00:08:09 <zzo38> You can pay by card if you prefer
00:08:13 <b_jonas> unlike some of the women with open purses you can see walking around here a lot.
00:08:17 <zzo38> If you can tie the card in a similar way it is just as hard to steal.
00:08:47 <zzo38> But the merchant can still commit credit card fraud on you.
00:09:18 <zzo38> (For example, by displaying "TRANSACTION FAILED" even though it is actually approved.)
00:09:20 <fizzie> Finland is in Europe, and I don't think paying everything you'd go out and physically but with cash would really cost any more than paying by card. With the exception of bus tickets, where it's cheaper to get the (wireless) card.
00:09:27 <b_jonas> no, he can commit a debit card fraud, which is worse. this is Europe, don't forget. we don't have checks here, and credit cards aren't so common.
00:09:55 <zzo38> Yes, debit card fraud too.
00:09:56 <fizzie> That "but" in there is supposed to be a "buy".
00:11:07 <zzo38> If I run a business I would wish to encourage customers to pay by cash.
00:11:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, for a business it's cheaper if the customer pays by cash, but for a customer it's cheaper to pay by card.
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00:12:16 <fizzie> Why is it cheaper to pay by card, exactly?
00:12:22 <zzo38> I am not talking about if it is cheaper or not
00:12:39 <zzo38> I want the customer to pay in cash to avoid tracing the credit card.
00:13:07 <zzo38> Possibly you can take advantage of rounding laws in places that have them.
00:13:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: because you pay for getting the cash from the bank; whereas I don't pay for paying with a card, the vendor is paying for the transaction, and also for the card terminal equipment and internet connection.
00:13:24 <fizzie> I don't pay for getting the cash from the bank.
00:13:31 <fizzie> And people generally don't.
00:13:50 <fizzie> There are some ATMs with transaction fees, but they're quite rare.
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00:14:21 <zzo38> I also don't pay for getting the cash from the bank, because it is a credit union and the law in BC is that you don't pay if you withdraw from credit unions, whether or not you are using ATM, and if you are using a ATM, even if it is one for a different credit union.
00:14:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: you do pay if you wanted to use cash for everything. you can avoid most in practice by paying with a card.
00:14:59 <zzo38> Sometimes I keep the money in my desk drawer anyways; I don't always keep all of it in the bank anyways.
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00:15:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you pay a monthly fee for having such a bank account or card for which you don't pay for getting cash without any limits
00:16:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, I don't pay a monthly fee either. But I do pay shareholding fees, which is just a one-time fee, however.
00:16:58 <fizzie> I pay a (small) monthly fee, but that's not related to any specific no-withdrawing-fees account/card.
00:17:07 <zzo38> You need shareholding fees to have an account, and since I paid shareholding fees, they keep sending me stuff to vote for their board of directors, even though I have told them I don't care at this time.
00:18:19 <fizzie> It's very country-specific, of course.
00:19:09 <b_jonas> it's also very country-specific how many vendors let you pay by card
00:19:30 <b_jonas> here I shop in lots of places where I can't pay by card
00:19:54 <b_jonas> not so many as to cause a serious problem, but still
00:20:24 <zzo38> Sometimes people with me insist to pay by card, and I then pay them bach with cash afterward (and I always demand exact change).
00:20:59 <fizzie> Personally, I only use cash in the university restaurants, because it's still slower to type a PIN and wait for the on-line confirmation, and those places always have queues.
00:21:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: those places also sometimes don't have change when you pay by cash
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00:22:19 <b_jonas> which is why I usually carry 2000 forint banknotes instead of larger ones, so I don't meet this no change problem at such places
00:24:47 <Sgeo> fizzie: cross-bank ATM withdrawals take fees
00:25:00 <fizzie> There's about 14 or so places on the campus (operated by maybe 5-6 different companies), and they all have their own "buy 10 tickets in advance" programs that are completely incompatible.
00:25:02 <Sgeo> And I tend to be too lazy to walk to the ATM for my bank :/
00:25:17 <b_jonas> Sgeo: exactly, and choosing the bank that has more ATMs take monthly fees
00:25:33 <fizzie> Sgeo: Well, they don't, here.
00:26:28 <fizzie> Or, rather, there's one ATM operator (Otto) that has maybe 90% of the ATMs, and withdrawals from those are free for at least most banks.
00:26:30 <zzo38> Sgeo: In British Columbia however, ATMs for credit unions do not have fees for any credit union in the province, by law.
00:26:59 <zzo38> ATMs for other banks still do sometimes have fees but not if both the ATM and your account are a credit union, even if they are two different ones.
00:27:48 <fizzie> (Not even the restaurants operated by the same company take the same lunch coupons.)
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00:58:01 <Taneb> Are there any cryptocurrencies backed by gold?
01:04:55 <nortti> how would that work? someone is willing to give n units of gold per 1 goldbackcoin?
01:24:19 <fizzie> `run while ! coins 5000 | tr ' ' '\n' | grep gold; do :; done | head -1
01:24:52 <fizzie> It does work, sometimes.
01:24:58 <fizzie> `run while ! coins 5000 | tr ' ' '\n' | grep gold; do :; done | head -1 # TRY AGAIN
01:25:32 <fizzie> (I got abellgoldicoin and goldrivcoin out of it, earlier.)
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01:44:03 <zzo38> Why does playing MP3 files say things like [4:58/2:20] as the time? And the seek bar stays at the right side.
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01:52:11 <zzo38> Do you know which instruction sets have a flag-affecting-bit?
02:00:05 <zzo38> Do you like my "cpu16.txt" instruction set? (Now it is updated; all "reserved" instructions are filled in.)
02:07:22 <Taneb> I need to think of more WTNV-esque Computer Science-related statements
02:18:53 <zzo38> Taneb: What does that mean?
02:19:02 <Bike> welcome to night vale?
02:24:50 <zzo38> I have no "call subroutine" instruction, but there is a "push and move immediate" instruction
02:25:07 <zzo38> (which can be used for this purpose)
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04:49:33 <newsham> mov pc, @sp-; mov #1234, pc
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05:24:51 <zzo38> Is it OK if the shortest way to push zero to stack is involving the "load effective address" instruction?
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05:25:24 <zzo38> Is there a version of dc with a arithmetic IF instruction?
05:25:30 <Sgeo> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/darren-sharper-ordered-held-without-bail-amid-sexual-assault-probes/
05:25:31 <Sgeo> You can post bail on rape charges? WHAT?
05:25:31 <Bike> why wouldn't you be able to
05:25:31 <Sgeo> Was under the impression there's a category of offenses which are not bailable, and not sure why rape wouldn't be in there
05:25:34 <Bike> as i understand it's done case by case (in the arraignment) and in fact the default is a right to bail.
05:25:34 <Bike> "18 U.S.C. § 3142(f) provides that only persons who fit into certain categories are subject to detention without bail: persons charged with a crime of violence, an offense for which the maximum sentence is life imprisonment or death, certain drug offenses for which the maximum offense is greater than 10 years, repeat felony offenders, or if the defendant poses a serious risk of flight, obstruction of justice, or witness tampering"
05:25:34 <Bike> so rather than only some crimes being "not bailable" it's that only some crimes admit the possibility of being held without bail.
05:25:34 <Bike> i think they usually only set no bail if it's likely they're gonna run, or if it's likely they're going to do something again while out. football player probably isn't in either category.
05:25:34 <Bike> one time i was at an arraignment where the judge set bail at something silly because they were pissed at the media circus around the guy. kinda funny to watch
05:25:35 <zzo38> newsham: In what instruction set is it?
05:25:37 <zzo38> Do you have to fix the program counter when you are returning from a subroutine?
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05:49:55 <newsham> no particular instruction set..sort of pdp/vax-ish
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05:57:26 <zzo38> newsham: What is it for, then?
05:57:43 <Sgeo> It occurs to me that if I ever have jury duty, I might not find out because my asshat of a dad gave me no way of retrieving the mail
05:58:11 <Sgeo> He won't give me the mail key because he thinks I'll lose it. He promises to check the mail frequently but doesn't
05:58:20 <zzo38> Is it true that you only get jury duty if you vote?
05:58:41 <Sgeo> I have voted in the past.
05:58:50 <Sgeo> But I doubt it's true
06:03:38 <zzo38> Is there any new cards in Pokemon Card for healing opponent's cards?
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06:19:59 <newsham> zzo38: just saying that call/return dont really need special insns if you can access sp.
06:20:33 <newsham> ie: add #8, lr; mov #printf, pc and mov lr, pc
06:20:34 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, although you can't just mov pc; you should instead put the address afterward into stack.
06:20:54 <newsham> or add it when popping the stack.. yes
06:21:38 <zzo38> However then you need two instructions for a call, and one immediate value.
06:21:41 <newsham> sometimes you can reuse/abuse other features, like indexed offset
06:22:15 <zzo38> The instruction set I just made recently, has a "push and move immediate" instruction so that you can save one instruction.
06:22:32 <newsham> does it take less cycles to execute ?
06:22:44 <zzo38> Yes, because it has to read less instructions.
06:22:56 <zzo38> (I think. I don't actually know because I haven't made a hardware implementation.)
06:23:40 <zzo38> Read them from: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/cpu16.txt
06:26:19 <zzo38> I did also recently fix a few things in it, and add some examples
06:27:41 <zzo38> What is your opinion of this?
06:27:59 <zzo38> newsham: How would you reuse/abuse indexed offset in that case?
06:30:26 <newsham> if you have hardware for doing something like r9 <- fetch addr + off
06:30:37 <newsham> you can use the same "+ off" hardware to add 8 to the pc
06:31:01 <newsham> ie in x86: lea [addr + 8], eax
06:31:22 <zzo38> OK, I suppose you can do it like that
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07:00:42 * Sgeo abruptly gets hit by DST
07:01:50 <Bike> keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times
07:02:14 * pikhq declares DST to be the single most monstrous thing.
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07:12:42 <zzo38> I don't like DST, although, it is what is used.
07:12:58 <zzo38> In my area it is DST in a few hours.
07:14:39 <kmc> dynamically sized types
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07:35:28 <DTSCode> does anyone know of the location of a compiler for the esolang cheese++?
07:43:33 <zzo38> I don't know of any.
07:44:16 <DTSCode> ill just have to write my own then
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08:29:40 <zzo38> In what programming language will you write it?
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09:04:56 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g'
09:05:43 <zzo38> This pinball game has only five digits in the score display but I already earned over two billion points.
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09:09:38 <zzo38> I now have a high score of 5749128737 points, beating my previous high score of 2663351 points.
09:50:12 <shachaf> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound
09:50:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bounded a0) arising from a use of `maxBound'
09:50:13 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
09:50:13 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
09:50:13 <lambdabot> shachaf'sHighScore :: a0 (bound at .L.hs:150:1)
09:50:23 <shachaf> thanks monomorphism restriction
09:50:46 <oerjan> int-e: i thought lambdabot had that turned off?
09:51:16 <oerjan> shachaf: you can annotate the type hth
09:51:30 <oerjan> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound :: Integer
09:51:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bounded Integer) arising from a use of `maxBound'
09:51:31 <lambdabot> Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (Bounded Integer)
09:51:31 <lambdabot> In the expression: maxBound :: Integer
09:51:31 <lambdabot> In an equation for `shachaf'sHighScore':
09:51:37 <shachaf> yes but then i have to write the variable name twice #scow
09:51:51 <shachaf> the point was to make it polymorphic
09:52:12 <oerjan> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound; shachaf'sHighScore :: Bounded a => a
09:52:43 <oerjan> i suppose that also writes it twice >:)
09:53:05 <shachaf> what was the other solution you had in mind?
09:54:11 <oerjan> i just somehow didn't get that was what you meant by writing it twice.
09:54:33 <oerjan> > shachaf'sHighScore :: Char
09:54:41 <shachaf> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = 100; minBound = 0
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09:55:06 <oerjan> someone is being evil.
09:55:29 <oerjan> next he'll start unsafeCoercing babies.
10:00:41 <shachaf> unsafeCoerce oerjan :: Grownup
10:01:57 <FireFly> Is unsafe coercion a crime?
10:04:12 <shachaf> great, who made is 03:00 all of a sudden
10:15:06 <Bike> taneb you jerk
10:26:15 <quintopia> by which i mean, i agree that it's early and that you are a fool if you haven't already slept
10:29:03 <Jafet> > maxBound :: Integer
10:30:11 <ion> > "maxBound :: Integer"
10:30:43 <fizzie> Is there a way to see the contents of .L.hs?
10:31:33 * ion remembers you can create instances in λbot these days.
10:32:03 <ion> fizzie: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/lambdabot-4.3.0.1/src/State/L.hs
10:35:36 <oerjan> i think he means the @let adjusted version
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10:59:41 <b_jonas> DTSCode: is that cheese++ related to the famous old cheese perlmonks node http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=45200 and the cheesy ring?
11:31:28 <fizzie> Bike: "Starting with this version, the octave package now contains experimental graphical user interface (GUI) based on the Qt toolkit." soon it'll be indistinguishable from the 'lab.
11:36:01 <FreeFull> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = succ maxBound; minBound = prec minBound
11:36:02 <lambdabot> `pred' (imported from Prelude), `pre' (imported from Control.Lens)
11:36:07 <FreeFull> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = succ maxBound; minBound = pred minBound
11:36:08 <lambdabot> instance [safe] Bounded Integer -- Defined at .L.hs:154:10
11:36:08 <lambdabot> instance [safe] Bounded Integer -- Defined at .L.hs:158:10
11:36:32 <FreeFull> @let instance Bounded Integer where maxBound = succ maxBound; minBound = pred minBound
11:36:52 <FreeFull> @let shachaf'sHighScore = maxBound; shachaf'sHighScore :: Bounded a => a
11:52:12 <fizzie> Sadly, the Octave GUI does not work. The screen just flashes once, and that's it. :/
11:55:55 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropa#Nations_included_in_the_sculpture "Finland is depicted as a wooden floor including a male with a rifle lying down, imagining an elephant, a hippo and a crocodile."
11:56:03 <fizzie> Ah yes, the embodiment of Finland-ness.
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12:02:14 <oerjan> it may still be an improvement over a retarded lion
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13:18:47 <b_jonas> do you like perl? here's a challenge for you: construct a non-empty quine that prints its own source code as an error message => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=1077569
13:19:16 <b_jonas> if you don't like perl, solve the analogous task for python or ruby.
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14:42:24 <Jafet> b_jonas: iteration on perl 5.14 easily gives http://codepad.org/YYYNKjrI/raw.pl
14:44:15 <Jafet> python is even easier: http://codepad.org/aKTOVTHZ
14:45:29 <Jafet> Changing the filename: http://www.perlmonks.org/bare/?node_id=119526
14:46:19 <b_jonas> Jafet: do you wish to post a reply, or should I post instead?
14:47:49 <Jafet> I got a different quine on 5.18, so the one for 5.16 may be different yet
14:48:15 <b_jonas> yeah, I suspected that much, that's why I edited the post to ask for the version number
14:50:05 <Jafet> Now, actually constructing a quine, instead of banging it out with a script, may be harder.
14:50:38 <b_jonas> you are allowed to bang it out with a script
14:54:58 <b_jonas> Jafet: this 269 line long script you posted is interesting
14:55:37 <b_jonas> does it catch up itself using some long literal (whether double-quot or question mark delimited)?
14:55:53 <b_jonas> wait, it's 1182 lines long
14:57:44 <Jafet> I must have pasted the wrong data, it is 1238 lines here.
14:58:14 <b_jonas> Jafet: well, it doesn't seem to be a quine here, it starts to differ somewhere after the thousandth line
14:58:40 <Jafet> Oh, now I see how it catches up.
14:58:52 <Jafet> The last line is "- has too many errors."
14:59:14 <b_jonas> Jafet: I can't see that in the code I downloaded
14:59:38 <b_jonas> but yes, that would have been my second guess
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15:30:21 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
15:30:28 <fizzie> @tell boily ^style oots, just for you
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16:22:37 <FireFly> fungot: how do you feel about Xykon?
16:22:38 <fungot> FireFly: that, as bounty, i presume is a prostitute for me!! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice! slice!
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16:31:50 <fizzie> That's even worse than the Chrono Trigger style.
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16:40:43 <fizzie> Yeah, after generating an exclamation mark and "slice", it's not possible to get out of the loop, thanks to backoff not being implemented.
16:42:15 <fungot> newsham: here, let me down, greenhilt, and i would not be so dismissive of the thing and i can get my butt this morning.
16:42:36 <newsham> fungot: i dont want to hear about your butt this morning or any.
16:42:36 <fungot> newsham: and my soul and nev'r... actually, y'know, the rune over behind xkyon's throne labeled " castle blowing her cover.
16:43:14 <fizzie> fungot: "xkyon". Really?
16:43:15 <fungot> fizzie: master,, in enough detail as you, to seek it out... and this would never have enough to overcome by dr"
16:43:17 <newsham> fungot: who is castle and what do you mean "cover"?
16:43:17 <fungot> newsham: any such secrets or lies might contribute!
16:46:16 <fungot> newsham: by my calculations, taking into account the ambient temperature and our current longitude, i estimate that i have eliminated! we need to break, or simply forget about the laws that exist be enforced. they did the crime, let them do the time, and there, and you, the gods, that makes us all one big evil team here and there, and you, the gods, that makes us all one big evil team here too?
16:47:14 <newsham> fungot: a fie upon you, you devilish fool!
16:47:14 <fungot> newsham: wow, that is such a stupid magic item that can allow any bandit that defeated
16:47:53 <ais523> this has to be an OOtS-related style, doesn't it?
16:48:04 <ais523> also I keep expecting newsham to be a bot
16:48:37 <elliott> news-ham was only a bot because newsham wasn't
16:55:35 <newsham> i'm not a sha256 hash! I'm a free man!
17:02:07 <coppro> fizzie: how up to date is the oots mode?
17:04:50 <fizzie> coppro: It's scraped from http://oots.wikia.com/ so not terribly, and with some gaps. See http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Order_of_the_Stick_Comics for details.
17:05:44 <fizzie> It goes up to comic 772 more or less contiguously, but coverage after that is very sporadic.
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17:32:02 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I wonder if that corresponds to the point in time at which Wikia went downhill
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17:35:10 <fizzie> #772 is from Jan 31, 2011.
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17:37:38 <ais523> NetHackWiki split off from Wikia around October 2010, so that's the right timeframe
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17:38:42 <coppro> where's the non-wikia oots wiki?
17:39:06 <ais523> coppro: not sure whether there is one; they might just have abandoned rather than forking
17:39:29 <coppro> (there must exist one because there is a law that every subject is covered on exactly three wikis: somewhere on wikimedia, a wikia wiki, and one other unaffiliated wiki)
17:39:57 -!- ^v has joined.
17:42:18 <fizzie> It seems to be an officially discouraged wiki, but there does not seem to be a replacement.
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18:21:53 <Vorpal> Well that was... interesting. Repairing a slightly broken /var/lib/dpkg/available after a LTS->LTS Ubuntu upgrade
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18:37:46 <b_jonas> coppro: hehe, that's an interesting rule
18:37:59 <b_jonas> coppro: can a stackexchange site count as the third wiki?
18:39:07 <b_jonas> coppro: though I think it doesn't work, because Harry Potter is covered in two different places in wikimedia wikis, namely in en.wikipedia and en.wikibooks
18:39:26 <b_jonas> (and also on wikia and on stackexchange)
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18:42:18 <b_jonas> coppro: as for oots, the non-wikia one is the oots forum actually, though it's really unsuitable from a technical standpoint because it's not searchable
18:42:29 <b_jonas> it does contain lots of documentation about oots still
18:46:44 <int-e> @tell oerjan I thought I had an explicit NoMonomorphismRestriction in L.hs ... but it seems I'm without access to lambdabot this week (I'm traveling, and the ssh keys are at home)
18:47:23 <int-e> (embarrassing :) )
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18:54:09 <coppro> b_jonas: that doesn't count
18:54:40 <coppro> unless you're a moderator :P
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19:02:03 <fizzie> I had a look at the forum, but they didn't seem to collect transcripts there.
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19:06:30 <Vorpal> Wrt the topic: Easter is in April this year I thought?
19:06:39 <Vorpal> So it should be the hares of April, right?
19:07:48 <Vorpal> April 20 says ddg in a browser
19:08:22 <int-e> broken meaning absent, ye.s
19:08:36 <Vorpal> int-e, also I guess it is technically bunnies in English speaking cultures. Unlike us vikings who have easter hares
19:09:32 * int-e realized that touchpad behavior is highly configurable .. no more accidental clicks by tapping, yay.
19:10:05 <fizzie> Gah, I really should figure out some day why my system nowadays decides to open PDF files in Gimp of all things.
19:10:15 <Vorpal> I just turn the touchpad off personally. I prefer the trackpoint. And I avoid computers without either external mouse or trackpoint if possible.
19:10:25 <int-e> though honestly, 'man synaptics' is intimidating.
19:11:05 <int-e> the trackpoint does not match my mousing behaviour ... fast movements for activating windows.
19:11:10 <Vorpal> int-e, I thought there was gsynaptics or some such GTK+ configuration GUI for it?
19:11:35 <Vorpal> ah, I alt-tab generally when on laptops. And use mouse when I can
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19:50:01 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 3m 16s ago: I thought I had an explicit NoMonomorphismRestriction in L.hs ... but it seems I'm without access to lambdabot this week (I'm traveling, and the ssh keys are at home)
19:51:45 <oerjan> @let fhtagn = return ()
19:51:46 <lambdabot> No instance for (Monad m0) arising from a use of `return'
19:51:46 <lambdabot> The type variable `m0' is ambiguous
19:51:46 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
19:51:46 <lambdabot> fhtagn :: m0 () (bound at .L.hs:150:1)
19:52:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show a0) arising from a use of `show'
19:52:42 <lambdabot> The type variable `a0' is ambiguous
19:52:42 <lambdabot> Possible cause: the monomorphism restriction applied to the following:
19:52:42 <lambdabot> fhtagn :: a0 -> String (bound at .L.hs:150:1)
19:53:58 <lambdabot> `Sym.var' (imported from Data.Number.Symbolic),
19:53:58 <lambdabot> `var' (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
19:53:58 <lambdabot> `ival' (imported from Data.Number.Interval)
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19:57:44 <oerjan> <Vorpal> So it should be the hares of April, right? <-- there are march hares unrelated to easter too.
19:58:51 <myname> everytime i read "vorpal" i have to think about the goblins
19:59:49 <oerjan> myname: it's from jabberwocky
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20:11:15 <Vorpal> myname, surely you know of Jabberwocky from Alice through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll?
20:12:16 <Vorpal> Man, I want to go back and read that book again. I... don't think I have it in English though. I know my parents do, but I don't think I have it...
20:12:45 <oerjan> btw there's a march hare in those books too
20:15:26 <myname> Vorpal: dunno, i think the mane "vorpal kickass'o" is pretty amazing
20:16:20 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:18:49 <HackEgo> mincanchcoin 6ixcoin lcamoilecodistcoin dermencoin wakcoin stantcoin halloncoin billancoin berivascucoin spitafnfarmacoin fwittcoin bilecoin ampiracoin dogoroofcoin bubrackincoin c-logcoin baalcoin shaccoin paracoin biecoin
20:24:40 * ion pays 5 shaccoin to shachaf
20:28:11 <fizzie> You're giving shaccoins to the source of all shaccoins; how bizarre.
20:32:08 <kmc> fizzie: my work computer also tries to open PDFs with GIMP (when it doesn't open them with pdf.js)
20:32:34 <kmc> I think bilecoin is going places
20:32:43 <kmc> also baalcoin
20:33:25 <Sgeo> baalcoin is probably too easily cloned
20:38:17 <zzo38> Does GIMP support PDF at all?
20:38:56 <kmc> i think so
20:39:06 <fizzie> Yes. Though it's rather unsuitable for reading multi-page files.
20:39:18 <fizzie> It opens a selection dialog where you can import the pages you want, as separate layers.
20:39:27 <kmc> it rasterizes on load, naturally
20:39:39 <fizzie> Right, there's that, too.
20:39:42 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/eTiN there's probably some sort of a priority mechanism, but I don't know what.
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20:40:08 <fizzie> Also not sure where gimp comes from; it's not in /usr/lib/mime/packages/ which I thought was the general source for /etc/mailcap.
20:41:58 <fizzie> Oh, I guess it also picks up file types from .desktop entries.
20:42:21 <fizzie> Sadly, unlike the /usr/lib/mime/packages/ files, there's no priority numbers.
20:42:58 <fizzie> (/usr/share/applications/gimp.desktop lists http://sprunge.us/ecff)
20:44:58 <Vorpal> <myname> Vorpal: dunno, i think the mane "vorpal kickass'o" is pretty amazing <-- what are you talking about?
20:45:16 <Vorpal> <oerjan> btw there's a march hare in those books too <-- oh you have a good point. it is indeed the march hare, not the easter hare
20:46:50 <Vorpal> fizzie, sure /etc/mailcap is used? I thought it was some files in ~/.config that were used?
20:47:10 <fizzie> I'm not sure at all. I know some software uses /etc/mailcap.
20:47:11 <Vorpal> wine used to overwrite a lot of extensions (like .txt) which annoyed the hell out of me
20:47:28 <Vorpal> I fixed it by removing files from ~/.config/something
20:47:44 <Vorpal> also I found some way to prevent it adding new files, forgot what it was
20:49:15 <fizzie> ~/.local/share/applications/ seems to be part of the file extension association mechansim of XDG.
20:49:17 <Vorpal> Anyone used mosh? The ssh-kind-of-replacement?
20:49:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, that sounds familiar yes
20:49:40 <kmc> Vorpal: yes; I was a developer for a while
20:49:59 <kmc> and i'm using it right now :)
20:50:02 <ais523> I was going to say "I thought it was at least partly developed by #esotericers"
20:50:26 <ais523> I also remember disliking it for no good reason
20:50:29 <Vorpal> kmc, does it have proper scrollback yet?
20:50:50 <Vorpal> What about xterm mouse input thingy for curses programs?
20:51:06 <Vorpal> Those two things didn't work last I tried it, so I just gave up on it back then
20:51:12 <Vorpal> was wondering if it was any better now
20:51:28 <ais523> I take it mosh is recoding the terminal codes, screen-style?
20:51:48 <Vorpal> ais523, pretty sure yes
20:51:52 <kmc> I don't think it does either
20:52:12 <kmc> ais523: yes, it tracks the terminal state on the server side and then runs a state-sync protocol between that and the client
20:52:18 <Vorpal> Well then, then I'm not going to be using mosh for a while
20:53:22 <elliott> you can use another program that handles scrollback
20:53:31 <elliott> or just continue to act smug on IRC
20:53:49 <elliott> e.g. tmux and screen both do scrollback
20:53:50 <kmc> I use screen anyway (which means I have server-side scrollback) and I've basically never tried to use xterm mouse support for anything other than some graphics demos :)
20:54:00 <elliott> as well as programs that handle their own scrollback (less, irssi, ...)
20:54:01 <Vorpal> elliott, I prefer it to be in my actual terminal emulator, but okay. Doesn't solve the mouse input issue though
20:54:05 <ais523> btw, I didn't expect Vorpal to complain about lack of mouse support in a terminal program; it's a legitimate complaint, just didn't expect Vorpal to be the one to make it
20:54:12 <kmc> but if you need these things then yeah you probably can't use mosh
20:54:41 <Vorpal> kmc, need? No. Go crazy without them? yes
20:54:52 <elliott> Vorpal: mosh can't do that
20:55:12 <Vorpal> elliott, sadly that is the case. It is an awesome concept though.
20:55:37 <elliott> if you output 100 screens of output instantly, there is no guarantee you'll even receive all 100.
20:55:41 <elliott> it just wants to sync the current screen state.
20:56:06 <Vorpal> Right, but question is if it could be redesigned to support it. I don't know.
20:56:18 <Vorpal> Anyway the mouse issue could be solved as far as I know.
20:56:21 <elliott> yes! you could send every byte that comes through the terminal, and negate half the point
20:56:27 <kmc> Vorpal: yes it can, there's a github issue about it
20:56:34 <kmc> Vorpal: it's kind of ugly[3~y though
20:56:42 <b_jonas> recent versions of screen do transmit mouse commands (at least some variants of it), though old versions don't
20:56:44 <kmc> I believe the traditional response is "patches welcome"
20:56:52 <Vorpal> kmc, well, duh, terminal control codes are ugly :P
20:57:03 <Vorpal> VT100 is an ugly mess overall
20:57:09 <fizzie> Bah, these things are so complicated. At least the PDF app is now selected, with the aid of xdg-mime.
20:57:22 <kmc> Vorpal: I agree with you, no need for "duh"
20:57:32 <b_jonas> and I'm the opposite, I specifically have a patch to be able to disable terminal mouse support for some programs that want to use it
20:57:41 <Vorpal> kmc, that was not used in a provocative way
20:58:20 <kmc> elliott: I don't think it's impossible to support scrollback; we've talked about a system for sending pages of scrollback to the client on demand
20:58:23 <Vorpal> b_jonas, oh? How does the existance of it bother you? Just shift select in the xfce terminal at least if you want to select text from such a program
20:58:29 <kmc> but it won't be part of the local terminal's native scrollback
20:58:36 <elliott> kmc: it was in reply to Vorpal wanting native scrollback
20:58:48 <kmc> you basically can't do that
20:58:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: You never know when you need to press shift or not.
20:59:18 <elliott> kmc: you could with mosh-terminal
20:59:24 <Vorpal> kmc, hm, why is that? can't you sync up to n (configurable) pages of scrollback? Or doesn't terminals support editing the history?
20:59:29 <elliott> kmc: which links to mosh as its vt implementation
20:59:32 <b_jonas> Vorpal: it helps because I don't have to press shift to select stuff, and also because it lets me mouse click in the terminal window to focus on it (when another window was focused) without issuing a command
20:59:38 <elliott> kmc: actually that's a cool idea.
20:59:50 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I don't use this much these days though
21:00:11 <kmc> Vorpal: I don't think they support history editing
21:00:25 <Vorpal> Yeah I guess that would cause some issues
21:00:26 <b_jonas> the programs where this happens are aptitude and elinks
21:01:02 <b_jonas> but if nethack4 gains mouse support, I might start to use this feature for it
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21:01:16 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I use mouse support in aptitude, heh
21:01:25 <Vorpal> That is about where I use it actually
21:03:52 <Vorpal> kmc, I think wikipedia is a bit confused wrt mosh:
21:03:53 <oerjan> <elliott> e.g. tmux and screen both do scrollback <-- oh hum how do you do that? i've been having to capturing shell command with less just because putty's scrollback stopped working when i started using tmux
21:03:53 <Vorpal> "There is no such thing as scrollback with mosh, even if your terminal window has a scrollbar, it disappears when using mosh,[17] this is trade-off for garbage cleaning: binary output is wiped away for what should make sense: no session lockups because you accidentally did a cat of a binary. You will miss output like this. The best way to mitigate this is currently by using mosh in combination with scre
21:03:55 <b_jonas> well, it's an option I can toggle, so I can still use mouse support in programs where I want to
21:04:04 <elliott> oerjan: I don't know, I don't use them :p
21:04:08 <Vorpal> Scrollback and binary output? Really?
21:04:25 <Vorpal> Not sure they have anything to do with each other
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21:18:56 <oerjan> elliott: ok it was just ^B then PgUp and PgDn work until you press q
21:19:47 <oerjan> or to be precise, it's ^B PgUp etc.
21:21:24 <oerjan> so now i don't need to be so careful with shell output.
21:22:20 <oerjan> (the man page was confusing enough that i had to google for a superuser.com explanation, though :P)
21:23:02 <fizzie> I always just use the copy mode when I want to try screen scrollback.
21:23:34 <oerjan> fizzie: afaiu ^B PgUp is an abbreviation for ^B [ PgUp, where the first part enters copy mode
21:23:50 <fizzie> oerjan: Was this screen or tmux?
21:24:06 <fizzie> Hokay. Screen doesn't seem to have that shortcut.
21:30:11 <Vorpal> Isn't chrome supposed to use one process per tab?
21:30:34 <Vorpal> According to the task manager thing in chrome, some (unrelated) tabs are sharing currently
21:32:04 <fizzie> Oh good, now both evince and zathura have stopped rendering ligatures. This makes reading the C standard so fun.
21:32:19 <fizzie> "For each type quali er in the list, ident is a so-quali ed pointer."
21:32:50 <fizzie> "If the de nition of an object has an alignment speci er, --"
21:33:16 <Vorpal> Maybe you should use gimp to rasterize it instead? ;P
21:33:19 <fizzie> "An alignment attribute shall not be speci ed in a declaration of a typedef, or a bit- eld, --"
21:34:29 <Vorpal> Well, what did you expect?!
21:34:45 <fizzie> To be entirely honest, I expected it to work, since it almost always does.
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21:38:31 <fizzie> (Both viewers render with Poppler, so at least it makes sense for them to share the bug.)
21:40:29 <fizzie> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=73291 -- I guess people are looking at it.
21:41:58 <fizzie> (Curious to get this TeXGyre font as a replacement for Times.)
21:46:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, huh? A PDF without the font embedded?
21:47:57 <fizzie> N1570 does not embed "Times".
21:48:26 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/YRKb
21:52:40 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess you could install real Times?
21:52:47 <Vorpal> Should probably fix it
21:53:14 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably corefonts
21:53:37 <fizzie> If you mean the Microsoft font, that's Times New Roman, and I've got it installed.
21:53:49 <Vorpal> Oh okay, I thought it included Times too
21:54:39 <Vorpal> elliott, pretty sure Times and Times New Roman are different fonts?
21:54:48 <Vorpal> Otherwise that is rather confusing
21:55:11 <Sgeo> I'm addicted to wathcing Antichamber videos
21:55:17 <Sgeo> Even though it ruins the game experience
21:55:18 <Vorpal> "Times Roman, and its licensees like Adobe and Apple, is the font family used by Linotype. Times New Roman, and its licensees like Microsoft, is licensed from Monotype. Linotype classifies Times Roman as the upright (Roman) font of the Times family."
21:55:26 <Vorpal> Sgeo, have you played the game yet?
21:55:44 <elliott> Vorpal: if talking about the actual typefaces, "Times" is shorthand for "Times New Roman". cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Roman
21:55:54 <Sgeo> Vorpal: I've played some of it a while ago but haven't finished it
21:56:06 <b_jonas> elliott: not only. Times can mean the somewhat similar font by Adobe, or other fonts
21:56:20 <fizzie> The PDF is probably talking about the family, though. At least I would think so.
21:56:31 <Sgeo> But yeah, I started watching videos with the full realization that it would spoil the rest of the game
21:56:34 <Vorpal> elliott, so is Times Roman and Times New Roman the same as well?
21:56:39 <Vorpal> Now I'm really confused
21:56:58 <Bike> playing things? sounds hard
21:57:00 <fizzie> Anyway, I'm sure Times New Roman would be a better replacement for "Times" in this PDF than one where all the ligatures are named differently.
21:57:11 <elliott> Vorpal: it's not confusing.
21:57:31 <elliott> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_type
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21:57:43 <elliott> Times New Roman is "the new Roman typeface for the Times"
21:57:55 <elliott> it is understandably often shortened to just Times
21:58:04 <elliott> and your quote explains "Times Roman".
21:58:27 <Vorpal> elliott, so that is then the only difference between Times Roman and Times New Roman? Okay then I get it
22:00:04 <elliott> there is no difference. it's just names.
22:00:18 <elliott> I mean, you can contrast saying "Times Roman" vs. "Times Italic" or something.
22:01:23 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:02:43 <Vorpal> elliott, huh, guess not:
22:02:46 <Vorpal> "Although Times and Times New Roman are variations on a theme from the Times family, various differences developed between the versions marketed by Linotype and Monotype when the master fonts were transferred from metal to photo and digital media. For example, Linotype has slanted serifs on the capital S, while Monotype's are vertical, and the addition of a serif on the number 5[8] in Linotype's that is
22:02:46 <Vorpal> absent in Monotype's."
22:03:05 <Vorpal> Most of them invisible at normal size and distance though
22:04:01 <Vorpal> "Microsoft's version of Times New Roman licensed from Monotype matches the widths from the Adobe/Linotype version (a PostScript core font by Linotype). It has the lighter capitals that were originally developed for printing German (where all nouns begin with a capital letter). Versions of Times New Roman from Monotype exist which vary from the Linotype metrics (i.e. not the same as the version for Micro
22:04:11 <Vorpal> Okay this is starting to get rather complicated :P
22:05:06 <fizzie> As for why fontconfig prefers TeX Gyre Termes, seems that fonts-texgyre installs a /etc/fonts/conf.d/30-fonts-texgyre-aliases.conf that aliases "Times" to it in such a way that it's preferred over the other, more exhaustive listings.
22:05:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, so I guess locally patch that?
22:05:58 <fizzie> (Mind you, it is supposed to be a "Times" replacement.)
22:08:08 <fizzie> Yay, ligatures. (Changed it with a ~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf rule.)
22:09:54 <fizzie> Fontconfig configuration is silly-complicated, though.
22:15:20 <Sgeo> Vorpal: would you happen to know where the Antichamber music is stored?
22:15:35 <Sgeo> I want to listen to the music of a part of the game (that I haven't reached myself)
22:20:08 <Vorpal> Sgeo, just play the game first to avoid spoilers? You will thank yourself for it later
22:20:19 <Sgeo> Vorpal: too late
22:20:41 <fizzie> Antichamber soundtrack is in Spotify, if that helps? (It probably doesn't.)
22:20:44 <Sgeo> At any rate, I think I did get through most of the game before
22:20:50 <fizzie> Amusingly many game soundtracks seem to be there.
22:21:17 <Vorpal> Maybe I should get spotify then? Except I want to listen to it on the go mostly
22:21:19 <fizzie> I've listened to the Super Meat Boy soundtrack from there.
22:21:25 <Vorpal> So that would mean premium or whatever
22:21:46 <fizzie> It's "sorta-free" on mobile these days, except quite limited.
22:22:21 <fizzie> On devices classified as tablets, it's identical to the desktop version (so ads but otherwise full-featured); on devices classified as phones it's... something more complicated.
22:22:31 <fizzie> You can only listen to precreated playlists on shuffle, or something like that.
22:22:47 <fizzie> (Also no offline mode.)
22:23:08 <Sgeo> http://siddharthabarnhoorn.bandcamp.com/album/antichamber
22:23:54 <fizzie> Quite a lot are in Bandcamp too, that's true.
22:24:19 <Vorpal> yeah I get a lot of music from bandcamp these days
22:24:45 <Sgeo> Homestuck music is all on Bandcamp, so
22:25:35 <fizzie> Daft Punk should whip up an "Internet age" song they'd call "Hardr, Bettr, Fastr, Strongr".
22:25:36 <Vorpal> Antichamber is mostly ambient right?
22:26:33 <fizzie> Approximately 22200 people have made that joke before, I see.
22:27:18 <Vorpal> fizzie, I assume they made a song called that but spelled properly?
22:28:08 <fizzie> Though apparently in 2001, I thought it was older than that.
22:28:10 <Vorpal> Yeah it appears to be ambient
22:29:21 <fizzie> Can't seem to find a Wikipedia category or list article for "websites named like that".
22:31:43 <fizzie> (Just an answers.com article with 132 examples.)
22:32:06 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/BfRL there you go
22:32:29 <Vorpal> I thought loudr was a bit silly anyway
22:32:43 <Vorpal> but calcr on that list? That doesn't even make any sense
22:33:15 <fizzie> "powered by instacalc".
22:33:33 <fizzie> Possibly a site for automatically generating more sites named like that.
22:34:05 <Vorpal> Also loudr isn't listed
22:34:31 <fizzie> Perhaps it's newer than the answer.
22:34:40 <zzo38> Is there DVD video player which can tell you the values of each registers and allow you to manually adjust them?
22:34:47 <fizzie> Some I can't quite guess from the name. Like "gickr". (Which turned out to be a website for making animated gifs.)
22:34:57 <zzo38> (And that can enable/disable UOP support)
22:39:00 <FireFly> `run sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p' /usr/share/dict/words | shuf -n 1
22:39:01 <HackEgo> sed: can't read /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
22:40:19 <FireFly> Hmm, some of these might not work very well... 'youngstr', 'yawnr', 'zookeepr'
22:41:08 <fizzie> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p'
22:41:17 <fizzie> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p'
22:41:19 <fizzie> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n '/er$/s/er$/r.com/p'
22:41:21 <HackEgo> pr.com \ origir.com \ hundr.com
22:41:44 <fizzie> Funnily enough, the one I got in query was "nigr.com". Way to be PC there, HackEgo.
22:42:18 <FireFly> the gr$ ones could even use a Greek TLD domain-hack
22:43:22 <FireFly> Oh, I guess /p actually only applies if a substitution occurred. Makes sense
22:43:22 <fizzie> Flickr owns flic.kr, I think.
22:43:44 <FireFly> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n 's/er$/r/p'
22:43:50 <FireFly> `run words 10000 | tr ' ' '\n' | sed -n 's/er$/r/p'
22:44:52 <fizzie> They've also applied for the .flickr TLD, I see.
22:45:10 <fizzie> Prioritization number 1697, so not going to be delegated all that soon.
22:45:39 <zzo38> Why do they require a TLD?
22:45:54 <fizzie> So that nobody else can register it, I suppose.
22:46:16 <zzo38> O, OK, if that is what they have to do so that nobody else can register it
22:46:25 <zzo38> It still isn't very sensible
22:47:27 <fizzie> I don't quite remember the exact rules for the ICANN gTLD program; it's possible they had at least a bit more trademarks-and-so checks than regular domain names.
22:47:57 <fizzie> So perhaps Yahoo is in fact the only one able to register .flickr, and they don't need to do it just for that reason.
22:48:36 <zzo38> There should be a TLD called .ipv4 which takes whatever comes before and then ignores the IPv6 addresses associated with them (so that the domain "example.org.ipv4" will make a IPv4 connection even on IPv6 computers, for example).
22:49:44 <zzo38> If there aren't any IPv4 addresses associated, then the TCP/IP driver should make up a private IP address to connect through so that programs that don't support IPv6 can still connect.
22:50:41 <zzo38> I don't know if they would ever actuall register such a thing if requested, though.
22:50:44 <Vorpal> zzo38, except tcp4 and tcp6 are not the same
22:50:54 <Vorpal> So that could be messy
22:51:38 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it can use IPv4 addresses if they exist but if there aren't any then the DNS server returns no response, and then TCP/IP driver makes up its own DNS respose and tries to convert as best it can.
22:52:35 <Vorpal> I guess it could proxy it? Anyway I guess the only really big difference is how the TCP checksum is calculated
22:52:37 <zzo38> And then the TLD called .usb can be used for connecting to local USB ports on your computer.
22:52:53 <zzo38> Vorpal: Yes, it would proxy it, converting whatever is difference, in best way it can.
22:52:54 <fizzie> I seem to recall someone registered .USB.
22:53:05 <Vorpal> zzo38, no that should be a prototocol, like usb+whatever://
22:53:19 <fizzie> Also I think some of the many IPv6 transition mechanisms do DNS tricks.
22:53:59 <fizzie> Huh, no applications matching USB. Must've misremembered.
22:54:04 <zzo38> Vorpal: But you still need some kind of IP address, that you can access it using programs that use internet connection.
22:54:11 <zzo38> It shouldn't be a URI scheme
22:54:18 <zzo38> That wouldn't help anyways.
22:55:01 <zzo38> Rather something like "9p://disk.usb/" can be a URL.
22:55:14 <fizzie> They have delegated .xyz already, I see.
22:55:47 <fizzie> gTLD. I don't think there are three-letter ccTLDs.
22:56:01 <fizzie> And to "XYZ.COM, LLC", of course.
22:56:13 <fizzie> "Prior to our domain extension application for .xyz we received interest from visitors who wanted to register .xyz.com subdomains and pay for premium @xyz.com email addresses. The market clearly demanded a new generic top level domain and .xyz was it."
22:56:16 <Vorpal> The whole gTLD thing is pretty silly
22:56:31 <fizzie> I take it you're not registering a vorpal.guru domain, then?
22:56:53 <fizzie> There's a http://vim.sexy/ already.
22:56:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, I don't own any domain names at all
22:57:05 <Vorpal> They allowed .sexy? Heh
22:57:09 <zzo38> Yes it is silly although there are better ways to do it, which they do not do anyways
22:57:33 <fizzie> "Sign up now for a chance to get an early-access invite for Vim today.
22:57:34 <fizzie> Don't make the cut? Guess you aren't ready for a next-level editor experience."
22:57:40 <fizzie> (It's a parody thing.)
22:58:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think all you need is ccTLDs and some common ones like .com and .org. And .net is way to vague in what qualifies
22:58:52 <Vorpal> Also .edu and .gov should go, they shouldn't be US-specific
22:59:07 <Vorpal> Or they should be removed entirely
22:59:16 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh yeah forgot about that one, same for it obviously
22:59:41 <zzo38> I agree you don't really need any of those new ones like .flickr and so on; it is completely silly. However, things like .ipv4 and .uucp and so on can be useful things to add on.
22:59:56 <Vorpal> What on earth is .uucp?
22:59:59 <zzo38> Vorpal: Governments would be country-specific anyways
23:00:22 <zzo38> Vorpal: Access a UUCP address using internet domain names.
23:00:58 <fizzie> At least there's no application for .onion yet.
23:01:04 <fizzie> That'd so irritate the Tor folks.
23:02:37 <fizzie> I think they also opted not to allow anyone to register .local.
23:03:14 <zzo38> It should have application for TLDs which are specified as not used with global DNS, or otherwise are reserved or special in some ways other than normal registration of domain names. These would include .local and .onion and .ipv4 for example.
23:03:21 <zzo38> As well as .example and .invalid.
23:03:29 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh god that would have been terrible :P
23:04:15 <fizzie> At least .local is codified in a standards-track RFC; .onion probably has no such protection.
23:05:24 <zzo38> That is why such "protected" registrations would be useful, in order to be registered as protected for only that reason and no others, to specify they are not used with normal global DNS.
23:05:34 <fizzie> IANA has a registry for "reserved for special use" domains already; .ipv4 and such could go there.
23:05:47 <zzo38> fizzie: Yes, it should go in there.
23:06:23 <fizzie> It contains just .example, .invalid, .local, .localhost and .test.
23:06:41 <Vorpal> .arpa is pretty funny too
23:07:15 <fizzie> (And some non-TLDs: example.{com,net,org} and the special IP address ranges of {in-addr,ip6}.arpa.)
23:09:18 <ion> https://eval.in/108854
23:09:28 <oerjan> <Vorpal> Also .edu and .gov should go, they shouldn't be US-specific <-- i am not sure .edu actually is, the nvg computer club i'm in had one for a while (nuts.edu)
23:09:43 <fizzie> Wonder how it's going for OpenNIC; at least .free of the new gTLDs conflicts with them.
23:10:18 <fizzie> oerjan: It is, nowadays.
23:10:22 <pikhq> OpenNIC's moribund, no?
23:10:30 <fizzie> oerjan: Earlier, they had exceptions.
23:11:13 <fizzie> "Only U.S. postsecondary institutions that are institutionally accredited by an agency on the U.S. Department of Education's list of Nationally Recognized Accrediting Agencies (see recognized accrediting bodies) may obtain an Internet name in the .edu domain." (educause.edu)
23:12:08 <fizzie> Though they're letting existing exceptions live on.
23:12:12 <fizzie> "According to the Cooperative Agreement between EDUCAUSE and the U.S. Department of Commerce, all .edu names in existence as of October 29, 2001, are "grandfathered." This means that everyone who already had a .edu name by that date (October 29, 2001), regardless of current or past eligibility requirements, is allowed to keep those .edu names."
23:16:29 <fizzie> OpenNIC website has no "news" section or anything else with dates on it, so it's hard to say how dead they are.
23:16:46 <fizzie> 78 users on freenode/#opennic, so they're... slightly smaller than #esoteric.
23:16:57 <fizzie> (According to the most objective metric.)
23:27:06 <oerjan> update: scott aaronson declares luboš motl unmasked, then bans him http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1720
23:28:12 <oerjan> (now one character less on the blog. i guess sidles's ban should expire soon, though.)
23:29:02 <oerjan> (sidles is like the antithesis of luboš, yet manages to regularly get scott to ban him)
23:30:31 <oerjan> iirc he ignored scott's claims he was speaking bullshit
23:31:22 <elliott> oh, motl even stopped doing research?
23:32:11 <oerjan> if luboš motl can never admit anything positive, john sidles can never admit anything _negative_ is my impression.
23:33:12 <Bike> As a Platonist,
23:34:03 <elliott> calling someone a retard three sentences before calling someone out for needlessly offending is a rather amusing irony
23:34:12 <oerjan> ... you like to leave people hanging
23:35:06 <Bike> that is correct.
23:35:31 <Bike> elliott: yeah :/
23:35:51 <oerjan> um which one of them said that
23:36:02 <elliott> aaronson, in the post you linked
23:36:09 <elliott> oerjan: oh, sidles is that guy who comments on that other guy's blog.
23:36:41 <Bike> he called motl a "social retard", see
23:36:42 <oerjan> elliott: you mean gödel's letter? i'm not there any more but he used to be.
23:37:05 <elliott> oerjan: did it jump the shark?
23:37:33 <oerjan> not really, but i got too damned annoyed by the comment system
23:38:02 <oerjan> the rss kept cutting off at 10-20 comments, no matter how much activity there was
23:39:38 <oerjan> somehow it feels worse to have a comment overview that keeps losing comments than having no overview at all
23:39:50 <Bike> what's it like wanting to read comments
23:40:51 <oerjan> Bike: both that blog and aaronson's have a rather higher comment standard than you may be used to.
23:41:08 <Bike> yeah, i know aaronson's does at least. it's still weird
23:42:30 <fizzie> Well, you know what they say about /.: we read it for the comments.
23:42:30 <Sgeo> Warrigal isn't here?
23:42:54 <oerjan> hm what nick does he go by nowadays
23:42:55 <Sgeo> This explanation of why P probably != NP seems like approaching math from a scientific rather than mathematical angle
23:43:08 <Sgeo> I know Warrigal commented on something like that once
23:43:48 <Bike> does that mean we're pouring calcium carbonate all over the graph isomorphism, or
23:44:11 <oerjan> Sgeo: yes, it was meant to counter luboš's claim that there was no evidence for or against, even by scientific standards, or something like that
23:44:39 <Sgeo> Bike: in terms of hypotheses and sufficient evidence rather than rigid proofs
23:45:06 <Bike> so that's a yes
23:48:01 <Bike> "If there is no proof that means that there is no reason a-priori to prefer your arguments" lol
23:48:26 <Bike> i should start a campaign of showing mathematicians how flimsy everything in science world is. blow your damn minds
23:50:06 <Bike> well the quote was from an astronomer, so there
23:51:07 <Bike> honestly i just think scientists are really bad at philosophy
23:51:38 <zzo38> I know that science is not perfect like mathematics is. But it is the best way we can
23:52:06 <Bike> as a platonist
23:53:34 <zzo38> Are you platonist?
23:54:45 <zzo38> Then, what are you?
23:54:52 <Bike> ooh hey this post mentions Impagliazzo
23:55:30 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
23:55:33 <Bike> i forget the term. psychologism-ist or suchlike
23:55:53 <zzo38> What does "psychologism-ist" mean?
23:56:35 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologism
23:57:05 <Bike> wait. the shachaf is within me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychologism
23:58:00 <Bike> this post is pretty neat oerjan.
23:58:17 <Bike> i stopped reading aaronson a while back but i guess i should start again