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00:41:24 <oerjan> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_(dinosaur) hth
00:41:50 <oerjan> @tell boily https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_(dinosaur) hth
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00:55:55 <zzo38> I happen to think the second card I listed that I made up is really pretty good. You can use it with GENGAR [Lv.38] and possibly pick up the card before the end of your turn. You can also use RATTATA [Lv.12] and then pick up the card next turn! You can also use it if you want to recycle a special energy card, get rid of a card in your hand, or other purposes.
00:56:31 <zzo38> There are some opponent's cards that might cause damage based on how many side cards you have already picked up, so perhaps you can defend against such thing.
01:02:12 <boily> oerjan: hellørjan!
01:02:17 <lambdabot> oerjan said 20m 27s ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzu_(dinosaur) hth
01:02:54 <boily> oerjan: uhm. why are you dinosauring me? twh
01:03:27 <oerjan> boily: i hear you're interested in chickens hth
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01:06:34 <boily> oerjan: it may be the case tdh
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01:17:28 <kmc> http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/161098/when-is-it-numberwang
01:20:21 <ais523> that question is more sensible than I was hoping :-(
01:20:31 <ais523> I take it that 2048 variant doesn't actually have a win condition?
01:20:37 <ais523> (actually, "reach 2048" would almost make sense)
01:20:54 <ais523> also, 2048 disappoints me, in that I feel that it's reasonable for there to be a 100% reliable strategy, yet apparently there isn't
01:22:57 <shachaf> i think if there was a no-op move it would maybe be much easier
01:23:03 <ais523> also it has the permadeath difficulty curve trap
01:23:41 <ais523> shachaf: the official version doesn't work on my computer, so I've been playing the js1k version (in 2048 bytes) that never adds 4s, and adds a 2 when you perform a move that moves nothing
01:23:49 <ais523> in addition to when you perform a move that moves something
01:23:56 <oerjan> ais523: what's the permadeath difficulty curve trap
01:24:00 <ais523> even though that's much easier
01:24:17 <ais523> oerjan: when you make the game get harder as it goes along, with the start trivial
01:24:20 <ais523> in a game with permadeath
01:24:34 <ais523> it means every time you screw up you have to play through like half an hour of nothing much happening
01:24:45 <elliott> the correct curve is downwards
01:24:46 <oerjan> ais523: tetris also does that fwiw
01:25:07 <elliott> btw this is a weird thing for you to say given that this is one of crawl's most obvious differences from nethack
01:25:11 <ais523> in Tetris it's less bad because a) you can start at a higher difficulty, b) the goal is to last as long as possible, rather than reach a set location
01:25:19 <ais523> elliott: Crawl and NetHack both curve downwards, though
01:25:37 <ais523> what did you think the difference was?
01:25:46 <oerjan> back when i played, i usually started at the second last difficulty level
01:26:23 <ais523> also, many versions of Tetris have a set-length mode, and those modes normally don't get more difficult over time
01:26:27 <oerjan> since the last one was impossible to keep up for any length of time, while starting as high as you could gave the most points
01:26:30 <ais523> (in fact, they get easier as you clear garbage blocks)
01:26:53 <ais523> also I used to play Tetris on the secret difficulty 19 for a while, before going back to 9 for actual play
01:27:20 <ais523> I'm no good at 19, but it got me in the right mindframe for playing something much easier by comparison
01:27:28 <ais523> there's an extra set of difficulties above 9 on the Game Boy version
01:27:35 <ais523> hold, umm, I think it was Down at the title screen
01:27:52 <ais523> it just displays the last digit (and a heart sign), but they're all much faster
01:28:39 <oerjan> ais523: something interesting about 2048 is that if you play well the difficulty fluctuates by dropping down when you round a new block size
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01:28:59 <ais523> oerjan: yes, although having a very full board also reduces the difficulty
01:29:03 <ais523> in that everything becomes predictable
01:29:12 <ais523> as long as you're using a version that doesn't drop 4s, anyway
01:32:25 <oerjan> i suspect if you had only 2's then there _might_ be a more obvious perfect play
01:32:28 <ais523> one simple way to look at it is that 2048 on a 16x1 board, the only time things go wrong is when you're forced to press the forbidden direction (there are only two)
01:32:36 <ais523> probably even with 4s dropping
01:33:09 <ais523> unless 2s and 4s decide to drop alternating, but you can't do much about that
01:33:16 <oerjan> oh hm right when they are placed next to where you want them.
01:33:50 <oerjan> something vaguely similar to what i said
01:34:11 <ais523> yeah, I think I know what you mean even though it's nothing like what you said
01:37:30 <shachaf> ais523: at which number would you stop expecting there to always be a reliable strategy?
01:37:51 <shachaf> anyway, this js1k version is indeed much easier, except for the flickering
01:38:17 <ais523> that's a good question, possibly 1024
01:38:54 <shachaf> Also, why doesn't it work on your computer?
01:39:07 <ais523> and no idea, the controls just don't work
01:39:10 <shachaf> On my old computer with an old browser, it fails because something has a "continue" attribute.
01:39:16 <shachaf> Oh, but it does draw the numbers?
01:39:35 <ais523> I only tried twice, a while back
01:39:54 <ais523> incidentally, someone used a bot that uses alpha-beta search to try to minimize the impact of bad luck
01:40:06 <ais523> playing an uncapped version, it got a 2048 and 4096 on the same board
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02:01:00 <zzo38> What are the proper archive types for the -t option in 7-Zip?
02:01:28 <zzo38> I know what archive types it supports but I don't know what name to use with the -t option to specify them
02:02:30 <zzo38> Specifically if I have a self-extracting archive I want to be able to tell it whether I want to load it as a ZIP or as a EXE
02:04:48 <zzo38> -texe doesn't seem to work.
02:09:49 <zzo38> (7-Zip does support a lot more file types than it documents: It can extract sections from Windows .EXE files, as well as DOCFILE chunks (which are used mainly in Microsoft Office), and a number of other things.)
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02:20:26 <kmc> zzo38 does
02:20:40 <myname> i forgot, the guy that writes dos games
02:21:12 <lexande> does zzo38 live in portland
02:21:40 <ais523> he or she is at Canada
02:22:00 <ais523> and has an interesting and unique view on the world
02:22:10 <myname> i mean, seriously, even windows xp which is over 10 years old can handle zip files
02:22:31 <myname> zzo38: where are my donuts?
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02:22:34 <ais523> zzo38 can be pretty interesting to talk to
02:22:41 <ais523> and has useful views on things
02:22:42 <Taneb> Antonym of "destination"?
02:22:47 <ais523> you have to deal with the lack of context, though
02:22:55 <ais523> Taneb: "source", in programming
02:23:09 <ais523> for journeys, I'm less certain
02:23:15 <ais523> "starting point"? "origin"?
02:24:15 <myname> so... antonym is a synonym of opposite?
02:25:05 <ais523> it's also an opposite of "synonym"
02:25:17 <Taneb> myname, in one sense, yes
02:25:52 <lexande> zzo38: what is your origin story? how did you get your powers?
02:26:14 <myname> ais523: the opposite of synonym is the synonym of opposite
02:26:19 <ais523> also, please don't pick on him
02:26:36 <ais523> the rest of the Internet does enough of that
02:26:56 <myname> lexande: you now zzo is pretty zzoic?
02:27:41 <lexande> yes but what do you mean by "zzoic"?
02:28:05 <kmc> I think we should stop talking about zzo38 until he's had time to tell his origin story
02:28:10 <myname> what's that bot's trigger for zzo?
02:29:02 <ais523> it feels unfair picking on someone who isn't here (in fact, it's unfair to pick on someone even if they are here)
02:29:27 <myname> well, i do think he's a great guy
02:30:24 * Sgeo vaguely wonders what people say behind his back
02:31:37 <ais523> Sgeo: the channel's logged, you can look it up if you like
02:34:42 <lexande> i guess wisdom has origin stories for most people here
02:35:06 <shachaf> i don't know my origin story
02:35:52 <myname> what defines an origin story in this context?
02:35:52 <Sgeo> Are there groups of people who don't think their preferred activity is the best thing to teach kids? As in, chess players encourage people to play chess, programmers think programming classes are a great idea, some violinists has this on her page: "On October 1, 2013, Stirling teamed with the non-profit Atlanta Music Project to help spread appreciation of music to children who might not otherwise have the chance. The Atlanta Music Project's
02:35:52 <Sgeo> mission was "to inspire social change by providing Atlanta's under-served youth the opportunity to learn and perform music in orchestras and choirs.""
02:36:07 <kmc> porn stars
02:36:31 <myname> Sgeo: i don't think programming classes are a great idea
02:38:22 <lexande> kmc: porn stars probably tend to support better sex ed?
02:38:43 <myname> with educational videos and stuff
02:38:48 <lexande> which is in that direction at least
02:40:05 <ais523> politicians don't generally try to teach schoolchildren politics, do they?
02:40:13 <ais523> especially given that they actually have the ability to do so
02:40:29 <ais523> at least in the UK, where they have some input into the required curriculum that must be taught to all children
02:40:48 <ais523> the nearest we come to that is Citizenship, which doesn't actually work as a subject
02:40:54 <ais523> given that most teachers don't take it seriously
02:41:06 <ais523> and even that's a pretty recent innovation
02:41:24 <ais523> admittedly, I'd have found that a really useful subject if it were actually taught well
02:41:50 <myname> i do think most politicians with that influence have an easier life with people not knowing stuff about politics
02:42:24 <zzo38> lexande: What powers? What origin story?
02:44:11 <kmc> I think that's the question for you
02:45:33 <zzo38> While Windows XP has support for ZIP archives, it isn't very good, since for one thing it isn't supported on command-line access (although for GUI, the built-in ZIP support is good enough)
02:57:48 <Sgeo> 'They're called "alpha males" because they're broken, primitive, buggy versions of real humans.'
02:58:56 <kmc> meh let's not get all eye for an eye on dehumanization
02:59:00 <kmc> that seems like it will end badly
03:01:47 <quintopia> i got stuck playing the fibonacci version of 2048 for hours friday night, and here you're talking about it again, teasing me with it.
03:02:31 <kmc> doge-mille-quarante-huit
03:02:32 <ais523> is the fibonacci version mathematically equivalent, or actually different?
03:02:58 <ais523> also, I'm not quite sure how games get this popular so quickly
03:03:05 <quintopia> ais523: it's the same game, but it takes one less tile to get each number
03:03:23 <ais523> someone will have to explain flappy bird to me someday, I know that it was some sort of widely popular game thing thas was easy to implement
03:03:44 <quintopia> http://mike199515.free3v.com/1597/2.htm
03:03:51 <myname> ais523: it is like that crappy helicopter games years ago
03:04:08 <quintopia> ais523: press a button to make the thing jump up a bit, then it falls down
03:04:31 <ais523> does the bird move left and right? or do the obstacles?
03:04:48 <ais523> that game has been around for ages
03:05:11 <quintopia> ais523: yes but kids weren't killing each other over high scores until recently
03:05:11 <myname> each version of the game is equally crappy
03:05:14 <ais523> I seem to remember one of the microgames in one of the Warioware game worked like that, except with blowing into the controller
03:05:18 <myname> it only differs in how hard it is
03:05:39 <ais523> but then, the entire way Warioware works is to have a huge number of games that are individually crappy, but each one only lasts three seconds so who cares
03:05:55 <ais523> also, in that time period, you have to deduce the rules of the game, in addition to completing it
03:06:14 <ais523> it gets less interesting once you have them all memorized
03:06:32 <quintopia> this is the decent one: http://techcrunch.com/2014/02/12/canabalt-super-hexagon-flappy-bird/
03:07:11 <myname> even impossible game is waaaaaaay better than flappy bird
03:07:29 <kmc> super flappy angry doge 2048
03:07:43 <ais523> so I guess the next problem is "how do you make an easy-to-program game that randomly becomes wildly popular overnight?"
03:07:58 <kmc> it's webscale
03:08:31 <quintopia> but then better games tend to become wildly popular more often, so that's the better route
03:08:32 <ais523> I don't think Flappy Bird had marketing
03:08:44 <quintopia> like frex QuizUp...do you know anyone who doesn't have that game?
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03:08:51 <Sgeo> I have a game I made in C# that I should convert to flash
03:08:53 <ais523> quintopia: I've never heard of it
03:09:11 <myname> quizduell became pretty popular here
03:09:13 <kmc> flash is a dead end technology
03:09:17 <kmc> plus it sucks
03:09:20 <ais523> I think there's at least two Flash to HTML5 compilers going around atm
03:09:26 <zzo38> Convert the game into different format, such as iNES format
03:09:28 <kmc> does that include shumway?
03:09:28 <ais523> no idea how well they work
03:09:34 <kmc> not sure whether that counts as a "compiler" or not
03:09:52 <quintopia> so why aren't you all playing 2584
03:10:02 <zzo38> myname: A format for storing ROM images of NES/Famicom cartridges.
03:10:17 <Sgeo> Robozzle was briefly popular here for a while
03:10:21 <myname> quintopia: i actually like it more than 2048, but 2048 already bored the shit out of me
03:10:37 <Sgeo> But it's Silverlight :/
03:10:41 <zzo38> (These days, even whoever make the iNES format files sometimes never end up making a cartridge.)
03:10:47 <myname> Sgeo: there is a js version
03:10:52 <myname> Sgeo: also an android app
03:10:54 <Sgeo> JS version sucks
03:10:59 <zzo38> Sgeo: There is HTML+JavaScript version too, and now I made DOS version too.
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03:12:03 <myname> i hardly became 2 or 3 people playing robozzle
03:12:38 <myname> and robozzle is awesome
03:12:50 <zzo38> Sgeo: I don't know, what's wrong with JS version either
03:13:05 <zzo38> (Although, I think DOS version is more better)
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03:16:24 <Sgeo> Let's see if I still suck at Fitznik
03:18:58 <Sgeo> http://www.screamingduck.com/Fitznik.php
03:20:16 <myname> is this something like chroma?
03:21:20 <myname> okay, nevermind, i just don't get the pictures
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03:24:21 <myname> http://www.level7.org.uk/chroma/
03:24:49 <myname> also: there is a second ui with ncurses
03:25:20 <Sgeo> I thought you meant this although it makes no sense http://store.steampowered.com/app/241850/
03:25:52 <ais523> I wrote a blog post on what's wrong with curses and variants thereof
03:25:59 <Sgeo> Fitznik apparently freezes when minimized too long :(
03:26:09 <ais523> (the Windows version of pdcurses is less bad in this respect, incidentally, due to not pretending to be portable)
03:27:46 <myname> ais523: i jumped over to termbox
03:28:02 <myname> but i do think there aren't many people knowing that
03:28:06 <ais523> I haven't heard of termbox; my own solution was to write libuncursed
03:28:19 <ais523> which has various not-found-elsewhere-and-unlikely-to-be features I needed
03:29:01 <myname> https://github.com/nsf/termbox pretty minimal
03:29:24 <myname> you may have to write own helper functions, but i am actually okay with it
03:29:43 <myname> also, making bindings for other language is piece of cake
03:30:04 <myname> unlike bcurses with its 100s of functions in up to 4 different ways
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03:30:30 <ais523> ah, one of my requirements was that it had to be easy to port existing curses code to
03:30:37 <ais523> because I had existing curses code I needed to port to it
03:32:28 <ais523> btw, what are this channel's opinion on Facebook's new language which is basically statically typed PHP?
03:32:37 <myname> oh my god, there is an android port of enigma (that oxyd like thingie)
03:33:11 <ais523> that's apparently pretty old, unless it was developed in the last few days
03:33:16 <ais523> there was discussion about it recently
03:33:30 <ais523> also, I have level design credits for Enigma now, I feel somewhat proud of that somehow
03:34:04 <ais523> "Our solution was to architect the type checker as a local server that watches the filesystem. The server keeps all information about the source code in memory and automatically updates itself when a file changes on disk."
03:34:04 <myname> well. i do like the idea of replacing php with something
03:34:13 <ais523> it's like flymake, but backwards
03:34:19 <myname> but 1) i just really don't like facebook
03:34:30 <myname> 2) don't replace a language with a fork of itself
03:34:52 <pikhq> curses is such a poor library. Especially the bit where it pretends there are non-VT100 terminals on Unix.
03:34:58 <ais523> also they wrote the compiler in ocaml, which is great ammo to use against first-year students
03:35:18 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, but all the xterm-alikes are essentially extended VT100s.
03:35:22 <ais523> the entire principle on which curses is based fails, because everything claims to be xterm
03:35:26 <ais523> despite not all acting identically
03:35:55 <pikhq> So you might as well just emit codes that should work on pretty much anything vaguely VT100-alike.
03:35:59 <ais523> gah, facebook's blog rewrites outgoing links so it can check how many people click on them?
03:36:36 <pikhq> Which doesn't get you Windows support, but nothing will without actually calling Windows' console functions.
03:36:47 <ais523> also they have sugar for Maybe, which is unusual
03:37:03 <ais523> pikhq: indeed, also you need to know which ones to call
03:37:34 <myname> who cares about windows
03:37:44 <pikhq> Unfortunately, a lot of people use it.
03:38:26 <ais523> I have a faketerm backend that should be reasonably portable
03:38:32 <ais523> once I fix the way it does select() on Windows
03:38:46 <myname> well, i don't have any mercy for people that like terminal tools but have no unixoid system
03:38:50 <ais523> fun fact: Windows has an API call select that does the same thing as the POSIX version, and all the arguments have identical names
03:38:53 <ais523> but some of them do something different
03:39:01 <ais523> and I didn't notice the first time
03:39:18 <pikhq> I though Windows select only worked on sockets though?
03:39:45 <ais523> another fun fact: Windows has a generic WaitForMultipleObjects function that works like POSIX select, waiting for arbitrary things
03:39:51 <ais523> /except/ you can't include sockets
03:40:00 <ais523> there's a separate function, which I forget the name of offhand
03:40:05 <ais523> if you want to be able to use both sockets and other things
03:40:05 <pikhq> Ouch. That just hurts.
03:40:13 <pikhq> It's like as though they want porting to be hard.
03:40:43 <ais523> it's like the socket-implementing people at Microsoft couldn't persuade the WaitForMultipleObjects team to add socket support
03:42:40 <kmc> starting to think the important part of "everything is a file" is "everything can be handled by one event loop"
03:43:12 <pikhq> Pretty much. Everything is a file descriptor.
03:43:25 <pikhq> Sadly, signals aren't, though you can force it.
03:43:30 <pikhq> Good ol' self-pipe.
03:44:02 <kmc> yeah, all the parts of UNIX that aren't file descriptors are a pain
03:44:07 <Bike> obviously have a second input fd that's all the signals, in text format
03:44:20 <shachaf> well, linux has signalfd()
03:44:24 <kmc> signals especially, but also processes
03:44:37 <shachaf> and timerfd and eventfd and various other fds
03:44:43 <pikhq> Yeah, job control is *amazingly* fiddly.
03:44:44 <Bike> shachaf: wow that's literally what i was thinking, nice
03:44:49 <kmc> ugh posix job control
03:45:02 <shachaf> various things are still not available as fds, though
03:46:34 <kmc> an fd is an unforgeable reference to a kernel resource, and will always refer to the same resource (unlike, say, a filename or a pid)
03:47:40 <kmc> what would it look like to design an OS explicitly for event-based programming
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03:59:51 <zzo38> I don't know how it would look like
04:02:57 <Sgeo> foo_dumb sounds like shit :(
04:05:11 <Jafet> kmc: message passing?
04:05:29 <Jafet> Or do you want fancy shit like the kernel calling your event handlers
04:06:21 <Sgeo> On the other hand, Pentagonal Dreams + Gapless repeat = good
04:07:34 <newsham> the "x-kernel" is kind of event based
04:07:51 <newsham> also arent most message passing microkernels kind of event-based?
04:08:49 <Jafet> No, microkernel threads usually wait on one channel at a time
04:11:09 <newsham> ahh, you want kernel->user activations that do rely on having a pool of threads waiting to receive something, i guess?
04:12:38 <Jafet> Well, you could be crazy and make kernel upcalls spawn new threads
04:13:13 <Jafet> That's not "event based programming" though
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04:23:16 <Jafet> If you only write code at parties, does that make you an event based programmer
04:24:04 <lexande> if you only write code at parties and also never go to parties, then you are presumably not a programmer, event-based or otherwise
04:24:05 <Sgeo> I bought a shirt http://www.zazzle.com/its_handy_t_shirt-235558875629678746
04:26:22 <zzo38> I have actually read of some system where every subroutine call spawns a new thread.
04:27:09 <oerjan> is the lower left one Ada?
04:27:32 <oerjan> or Algol, something like that but not Pascal
04:28:20 <Sgeo> I think it's some BASIC
04:28:24 <Sgeo> First thought was VB
04:28:45 <Sgeo> Assigning to the name of the function
04:29:05 <zzo38> Yes I think it is BASIC
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04:29:28 <zzo38> It looks like it to me.
04:32:00 <zzo38> There is room they could easily put more programming languages too, such as Haskell, SQL, shell scripts, and others.
04:32:58 <Sgeo> Haskell is on there
04:33:18 <Sgeo> That's how I found the shirt in the first place, searching for Haskell
04:33:25 <Sgeo> After having given up on finding a polyglot shirt
04:33:26 <zzo38> I didn't notice that at first
04:33:37 <zzo38> It is written small
04:33:57 <zzo38> And perhaps they could add Pascal too, even.
04:37:05 <oerjan> trouble is, you're going to need magnifiers to read the t-shirt :P
04:37:41 <zzo38> Picture looks like there is room to add some stuff, if the text is move up a bit.
04:38:38 <Sgeo> You can actually change the shirt
04:38:42 <zzo38> Anyways the code won't be very long in many cases
04:42:08 <zzo38> prooftechnique: OK, show me how then
04:42:11 <zzo38> : FACTORIAL ?DUP IF DUP 1- RECURSE * ELSE 1 THEN ;
04:42:41 <zzo38> WITH X(X,Y) AS (SELECT 1,1 UNION ALL SELECT X+1,Y*(X+1) FROM X LIMIT ?1) SELECT Y FROM X ORDER BY X DESC LIMIT 1;
04:43:25 <zzo38> prooftechnique: I don't know much about Prolog.
04:44:14 <prooftechnique> Though I guess that's fine, since these aren't all semantically equivalent, so the extra comparison isn't that iffy
04:44:39 <Jafet> Shouldn't the C one be much longer
04:45:09 <zzo38> Jafet: The one given looks OK though
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04:46:07 <zzo38> This one in SQL is slightly wrong because it fails to give any result at all if you input zero.
04:46:52 <prooftechnique> i.e., C => factorial(-1) = 1, Prolog => fak(-1, R) = error, Haskell => fac (-1) = -inf
04:48:08 <zzo38> Factorial of negative integers is not defined mathematically anyways.
04:49:02 <Bike> why bother with consistency there
04:50:55 <zzo38> Factorial of negative number is possible, as long as they aren't integers.
04:57:14 <Taneb> zzo38, although not in the way factorials are generally calculated
04:58:39 <Jafet> You could define (-n)! as (-1)^n/n!. Who needs analytic continuations anyway.
05:11:36 <lexande> Jafet: but don't you want 0! = 0*(-1)! ?
05:13:28 <lexande> obviously to get (-1)! you divide 0! by 0
05:13:34 <Jafet> We can just skip zero and pretend it never happened
05:13:57 <lexande> well it worked for the julian calendar
05:14:17 <lexande> uh, i think you mean \mathbb{Z}*
05:14:30 <lexande> since you disavowed analysis
05:14:48 <Jafet> Ok, but we need Q for the negative continuation
05:16:32 <ais523> hmm, http://www.eternal-september.org/ doesn't look too healthy
05:16:33 <quintopia> okay people what game do i play next
05:16:36 <lexande> what's a little ill-definedness between friends
05:17:11 <lexande> what game have you been playing so far?
05:17:12 <ais523> quintopia: does it have to be a game that exists?
05:17:28 <ais523> if not, I recommend Little Arrow Theory, which will be at least mildly interesting if I ever get around to writing it
05:17:45 <Jafet> Is it a feathered arrow
05:17:51 <quintopia> it has to be one of the following: braid, bastion, amnesia, limbo, lone survivor, super meat boy
05:18:14 <ais523> oh, hmm… braid and bastion are both pretty good
05:18:29 <ais523> I've 100%ed both, even though 100%ing braid is stupid
05:18:35 <Sgeo> I liked Braid. Haven't played Bastion
05:18:39 <ais523> it does have a bunch of pretentiousness but it's mostly ignorable
05:18:46 <shachaf> i could never convince myself to get more than maybe half an hour into bastion
05:18:53 <ais523> Bastion is also moderately pretentious, I guess
05:18:55 <quintopia> why is 100%ing braid stupid? i like 100% things
05:19:00 <Taneb> Couldn't get in the hang of Braid
05:19:02 <shachaf> it seems to become boring quickly
05:19:05 <Sgeo> quintopia: time
05:19:11 <lexande> afterward playing braid i dreamt that i was at the airport and missed my flight, and pressed shift to go back and catch it. and the TSA helpfully marked my boarding pass with sparkly green ink so i wouldn't have to have it checked again.
05:19:11 <ais523> quintopia: there's one part where you have to do noting for two hours, also alt-tabbing doesn't work
05:19:14 <shachaf> quintopia: there's a thing where you need to wait two hours to get it
05:19:36 <quintopia> ais523: can you walk away from the game and set an alarm for yourself?
05:19:37 <shachaf> and also parts of it are so well-hidden that i don't think you have much of a hope of finding them without looking them up
05:19:41 <ais523> lexande: my favourite bit of Braid: there's a speedrun mode, with a timer
05:19:44 <ais523> quintopia: sure, that works
05:19:51 <quintopia> shachaf: eh i don't mind cheating to 100% things :)
05:19:59 <ais523> lexande: and I thought that, because it times everything you do, shouldn't it be in green?
05:20:09 <ais523> and I looked at it really carefully, and it does indeed have faint green sparkles on it
05:20:40 <Sgeo> Play Thousand Dollar Soul
05:20:47 <quintopia> it took me around 30 hours to 100% psychonauts
05:21:02 <quintopia> around maybe thrice that to 100% super mario sunshine
05:21:09 <lexande> 100%ing braid seems dubious yeah
05:21:34 <shachaf> i do like some of the bonus star puzzles
05:21:41 <lexande> though i just 4096'd 2048, which is probably more dubious
05:21:47 <ais523> 100%ing Braid is not meant to be possible without spoilers; in fact, you're not even meant to discover that higher percentages exist without spoilers
05:21:51 <shachaf> but there's no indication that they exist and even knowing that they exist it takes a long time to time everything just right to get them
05:22:12 <ais523> probably the minimum level of spoiling that makes it possible is "100% is a thing that can be done"
05:22:33 <ais523> the minimum level of spoiling that makes it reasonable (but still very difficult) is a list of the levels on which you have to perform different actions to get percentage
05:22:46 <shachaf> oh, and you have to perform a particular action early on
05:22:53 <Sgeo> The links to the music is broken :(
05:23:02 <quintopia> ais523: i want the maximum level of spoilage :P
05:23:04 <shachaf> or, at least, there's an action you need to take to finish the game that makes it impossible to 100% the game
05:23:15 <ais523> quintopia: I rarely spoil people in public, because other people might be caught in the blast
05:23:28 <quintopia> ais523: i figure googling it would work :P
05:23:33 <ais523> also I can hardly remember at this point, go look up GameFAQs :-)
05:23:40 <shachaf> if you want maximum spoilers you can look it up easily enough
05:23:56 <shachaf> talking to people is good for situation-aware spoilers
05:23:59 <ais523> the level of spoiling I recommend for 100%, btw, is "here are the locations you have to reach, figure out how", apart from a couple of them, screw those
05:24:42 <shachaf> maybe that's too much spoilers
05:24:52 <shachaf> ais523's level of spoilers would have been nice, though.
05:25:07 <ais523> nah, the rabbit one is actually clever
05:25:16 <Sgeo> ais523: does #nethack count as in public for NetHack?
05:25:24 <ais523> Sgeo: it's a spoiled channel
05:25:27 <ais523> so I spoil in public there
05:25:53 <quintopia> for psychonauts, i wished there was a "list of things you can do to trigger reactions/cutscenes, when and where you need to be"
05:25:55 <Sgeo> Where do people go if they don't want spoilers but the game isn't working for them?
05:26:00 <Sgeo> Technical but not gameplay assistance?
05:26:29 <ais523> or just asking the query quickly and leaving
05:26:38 <ais523> NetHack spoilers often aren't so useful out of context anyway
05:26:46 * shachaf tries to remember the rest of the secret braid locations
05:27:11 <ais523> hmm, can I create hints generic enough that they don't give away anything unless you already know where they are?
05:27:22 <quintopia> because as difficult as 100%ing psychonauts is, it's trivial compared to "trigger all reactions/cut scenes that can be triggered without a cheat code"
05:27:41 <ais523> shachaf: we've mentioned three so far, and you almost certainly know where number 8 is
05:29:54 <kmc> nice, emscripten has source maps http://people.mozilla.org/~lwagner/gdc-pres/gdc-2014.html#/27
05:30:09 <kmc> so you can view and debug C or C++ code in the browser console
05:30:31 <shachaf> OK, I guess that had several mostly unguessable bits.
05:31:05 <ais523> there is nothing unguessable about number 8, it is by far the clearest one about what you have to do
05:31:15 <ais523> now, the fun part is: reach the star location /without/ unlocking it
05:31:24 <ais523> speedrunners do that all the time because it's faster than the regular way
05:37:04 <zzo38> Tell me if there are any commands you think I have missed in the Digi-RGB-Plus specification?
05:37:22 <ais523> zzo38: would it benefit from a COME FROM command?
05:37:27 <ais523> actually, probably it wouldn't
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05:37:45 <zzo38> ais523: It isn't a programming language, so a COME FROM command wouldn't do anything.
05:38:10 <quintopia> zzo38: can you get the current time
05:39:41 <zzo38> quintopia: You probably could *set* the current time using the "LOAD CONFIGURATION" command, and could display the time using the OSD command, although there is no way to get the current time otherwise, and that isn't what it is designed to do anyways, so it isn't necessary.
05:40:01 <Jafet> Anyway, factorial in C: int*f(int n, int*d){ int s = n*log(n+1)+1, *a = calloc(s,sizeof*a), i,c; if(a){ *a=*d=1; for(;n>1;--n){ c=0; for(i=0;i<*d;++i) c+=a[i]*n, a[i]=c%10, c/=10; while(c) a[(*d)++]=c%10, c/=10; }} return a; }
05:46:35 <Jafet> Could actually be shorter: for(i=0;i<*d||(c&&++*d);++i) c+=a[i]*n, a[i]=c%10, c/=10;
05:49:30 <zzo38> Digi-RGB-Plus control signal is a 1200,8,N,1 serial signal in the opposite direction from all of the other signals (video and audio). The codes go in four groups: Text control codes, Printable characters (in EIA-608 encoding), Remote control buttons, System control codes.
05:52:59 <zzo38> (It isn't actually EIA-608; it is a subset which uses only single-byte encoding.)
05:57:26 <zzo38> I have sixteen codes in "Remote control buttons" which are not currently assigned; maybe you know what to assign there, and/or if any ones that are already assigned are redundant?
05:58:23 <zzo38> (Four of them are assigned as "EXTRA FUNCTION A" to "EXTRA FUNCTION D".)
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06:03:17 <shachaf> now i've watched a braid speedrun
06:04:14 <ion> URL please
06:04:41 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvFAZ6_G3w
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06:07:23 <Sgeo> Braid 100% speedrun?
06:07:39 <ais523> Sgeo: there have been people seriously talking about 75%
06:08:04 <shachaf> Being everything except the 2-hour star and the last star?
06:09:15 <ais523> actually, there are only two really bad stars
06:09:26 <ais523> the 2-hour star, and the one you can permanently lock yourself out of
06:09:36 <ais523> not just for the permanent lock, but because the thing you have to actually do is stupid
06:09:43 <shachaf> That one doesn't seem that bad time-wise.
06:09:52 <shachaf> Oh, you mean for discoverability? Sure.
06:09:58 <ais523> not just discoverability
06:10:03 <ais523> even if you know what to do, it still sucks
06:10:14 <ais523> and you normally need multiple tries despite the task not being interesting once you know what it is
06:11:53 <shachaf> That's true for many of the puzzles.
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06:59:11 <Sgeo> Fun fact: The Internet Archive seems to have archived a bunch of Dexterity Software demo installers
06:59:38 <Sgeo> And yes, this fact is, in fact, fun.
07:00:14 <Taneb> Fun fact: I haven't slept
07:00:39 <Taneb> Actually, no, I slept from 10 to 1:30
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07:08:16 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dexterity.fileburst.com/*
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08:31:39 <zzo38> Why does ternary raster operations in Windows use both multiplex and RPN codes? (Windows only uses the multiplex codes; I have confirmed this; WineHQ says the same thing, and I have decided to test this.)
08:33:20 <zzo38> Microsoft calls the multiplex codes the "boolean operation index" and the RPN codes the "operation code" (they are really a kind of RPN codes though, described on WineHQ).
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09:57:42 <zzo38> WineHQ says "If you are implementing the raster operations, then decoding the low 16 bit value may be better than having a huge switch statement that picks a set of operations based on one of the 256 valid high word values." I expect that the switch statement would be faster though, if placed outside of the loop. If you have hardware multiplex support then you don't need that either (although I don't think x86 has it?)
10:07:45 <Jafet> A 256-ary switch sounds great for jump predict/microop cache
10:07:45 <Jafet> What is a hardware multiplex?
10:08:48 <int-e> x86 has an indirect jump, which compilers should use when compiling switch statements over longer consecutive ranges.
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10:09:36 <zzo38> Jafet: Esolang wiki as "Muxcomp" which the hardware multiplex is the only instruction in its instruction sets, so, it is something like that.
10:11:57 <int-e> oh. you really want a binary table lookup. hmm.
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12:17:11 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sun Mar 23 12:17:11
12:17:18 <boily> yup. definitely morning.
12:18:40 <Jafet> Morning is whenever you want it to be.
12:19:10 <myname> also, "moin moin" can be said like any time you want
12:19:24 <Taneb> boily, I went to bed at 7
12:22:02 <boily> Jafellot. mynamello.
12:22:30 <boily> Taneb: 7, as in 7am?
12:23:23 <Taneb> I started working on a game yesterday evening
12:25:26 <Taneb> I am making a game
12:25:35 <Taneb> You control a zombie horde
12:25:55 <myname> Taneb: i like it so far
12:26:43 <myname> Taneb: will there be a terminal version?
12:26:45 <Taneb> My code is on Github if you want to see, https://github.com/Taneb/zombie-game
12:26:53 <Taneb> myname, probably not for a while I am afraid
12:27:07 <myname> how am i supposed to play it, then
12:27:08 <Taneb> But it is not outside the realms of possibility
12:27:29 <Taneb> By borrowing a not-terminal-only computer from your parents?
12:27:45 <myname> Taneb: could you outline the idea of the game?
12:28:09 <Taneb> You control a horde of zombies who follow the cursor. Use them to defeat the humans!
12:28:17 <Taneb> They are pretty stupid though
12:28:26 <b_jonas> have you ever dreamt of irc channels that don't exist in reality?
12:29:12 <myname> Taneb: it sounds a bit like a reverse robot escape game
12:30:06 <Taneb> myname, I have not played a robot escape game
12:30:10 <Taneb> b_jonas, no, I have not
12:30:53 <Zom-B> 'control a horde'' hmm... Anyone ever heard of Liquid Wars?
12:31:08 <myname> Taneb: you are the player and have to escape robots that pop up, robots always take the shortest path towards you, but if 2 run into each other, they get destroyed
12:31:19 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think I have, but maybe I only dreamt that I dreamt of it, or something
12:34:05 <Taneb> I once had a dream that I had overslept and woke up at 4 PM instead of 8 AM
12:34:32 <Jafet> You're dreaming of my life
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12:39:33 <myname> i should start my game
12:44:32 <password2> mmm , Qt needs a clone class button
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13:27:27 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_anubiann00b: 5.4
13:29:02 <boily> anubiann00b: how dare you score higher than me?
13:29:05 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 5.7
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13:31:08 <boily> (mildly interesting wikipédia fact: the [French press](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_press) article doesn't have a French version.)
13:31:52 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 5.3
13:32:13 <boily> in fact, the name “French press” is a Bodum patent.
13:32:40 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 6.4
13:32:49 <olsner> really a patent? or e.g. trademark?
13:33:40 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_noob: 5.7
13:34:11 <olsner> apparently the french name for it is often "Bodum"
13:35:23 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_oops: 0.0
13:35:30 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust test >++++++++++++++++++++ >-------------------- >-------------------- >++++++++++++++++++++ >++++++++++++++++++++ >-------------------- >-------------------- >++++++++++++++++++++ >++++ >---- >---- >++++ >++++ >---- >---- >++++ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >------[+]>------[+]>------[+]>------[+] >------[+]>------[+]>-----
13:35:32 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_test: 0.0
13:35:52 <anubiann00b> wait no this code will just run off the right side
13:36:26 <boily> olsner: trademark.
13:36:44 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust test something >+>->+>->+>->+(>-++-(.)*132[+]++>-++-(.)*132[-]--)*15
13:36:46 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_test: 9.3
13:37:54 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 9.8
13:40:39 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust flagdance [[+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-]]
13:40:43 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 12.5
13:41:15 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust [+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-]
13:41:15 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
13:41:52 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust flagdance [+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-][+-]
13:41:55 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 10.1
13:42:17 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdance: 12.7
13:42:39 <int-e> !bfjoust !bfjoust [+-] ([+-])*10000
13:42:43 <EgoBot> Score for int-e__bfjoust: 9.8
13:42:51 <int-e> !bfjoust [+-] ([+-])*10000
13:42:55 <EgoBot> Score for int-e___-_: 9.8
13:43:09 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust describes the extended syntax
13:43:22 <int-e> (under "Abbreviations")
13:45:10 <anubiann00b> !bfjoust flagdanceTripwire (>+>-)*5(<)*10[[+-]]
13:45:15 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdanceTripwire: 4.0
13:45:45 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_flagdanceTripwire: 4.7
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13:47:45 <int-e> !bfjoust - >*10([-.]>)*5<*15(+-)*10000
13:47:49 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 3.3
13:48:29 <anubiann00b> How exactly does a program that sets a tripwire then trolls the flag do worse than a program that just trolls the flag?
13:48:31 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
13:48:58 <anubiann00b> @password2 you need to inclue the program name
13:49:16 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
13:49:17 <EgoBot> Score for nortti_foo: 9.4
13:49:19 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_yolo: 9.4
13:49:54 <EgoBot> Score for password2_diit: 6.1
13:50:15 <EgoBot> Score for password2_dito: 6.1
13:51:00 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_imdone: 0.0
13:51:21 <EgoBot> Score for anubiann00b_yolo: 9.4
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13:55:24 <int-e> !bfjoust - (>>+*12>>-*12)*2>([+[.-]]>)*19
13:55:27 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 14.6
13:55:38 <int-e> !bfjoust - (>>+*12>>-*12)*2>([+[.-]]>)*20
13:55:41 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 16.0
13:58:08 <int-e> !bfjoust - (>>+*12>>-*12)*2>([+[.-]]>)*20[+[.-]]<*29(+-)*10000
13:58:10 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_-: 17.6
13:59:58 <boily> holy fungot, that coffee is powerful.
13:59:58 <fungot> boily: no, it's not. it's more complex than that. read the code.) good stuff like " thisfunction2 thislineofcode")) but have to seek. hee. i wan to faster finish the game could
14:00:16 <boily> fungot: more complex than coffee grounds and hot water?
14:00:16 <fungot> boily: that is just a value of type " airbus is a big fan of avril....but this song " there was much greenish-brown pulpy matter
14:00:37 <boily> fungot: uhm. greenish-brown pulpy matter...
14:00:37 <fungot> boily: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube with this jaybad... he is like the punching him? does it involve? doing it the way you would calibrate a normal. pm showed the bq a parking citation. if confronted, you will say you are only here to deliver a message and then i'll put his shit.... w.t.f lol
14:01:18 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
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14:24:25 <fungot> b_jonas: but isolated parts of bodies, or fragments and synthetic mockeries of bodies, or fragments and synthetic mockeries of bodies, or fragments and synthetic mockeries of bodies, as might remain from the morbid and unaccountable foetor, i seized the paper and look affrightedly out of the rest, silhouetted against the rising moon.
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14:39:41 <int-e> !bfjoust 0 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
14:39:45 <EgoBot> Score for int-e_0: 0.0
14:40:41 <Jafet> fungot should say that again
14:40:41 <fungot> Jafet: gilman's room was torn out, the fnord who lodged just under gilman talking to mazurewicz one evening. they were
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14:41:43 <int-e> Poor fungot, it's still suffering from (dronf)^-1 poisoning.
14:41:43 <fungot> int-e: some disturbance or malady of genuine gravity, which no doubt formed the basis of the prevailing odd fnord and after six months believed that he could trust his instincts to take him back to fnord
14:43:10 <Jafet> I think fungot can hear you.
14:43:10 <fungot> Jafet: it does credit to the alertness of ammi's mind that he puzzled even at that tense moment over a point which would probably be missing. joe knew about such things. those scaly fnord seem to have been our associate. moreover, it might form a good present link with the scene of unholy worship, so inspector legrasse and his men, it is true that the window he faced was unbroken, but nature has shown herself capable of many fr
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15:19:19 <boily> I won that stupid 2048 game.
15:22:45 <Deewiant> Now do the 3D version! http://joppi.github.io/2048-3D/ Or the 65536 version! http://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~b01902112/65536/ Or the Numberwang version! http://louhuang.com/2048-numberwang/
15:23:30 <boily> I tried the numberwang one yesterday. my brain was unhappy.
15:25:55 <Zom-B> what the fuck numberwang, the numbers keep changing
15:26:40 <Taneb> Zom-B, focus on the colours :)
15:27:05 <Zom-B> so its just 2048 with numbers obfuscated?
15:27:21 <Jafet> Well... that's numberwang
15:28:51 <int-e> Deewiant: intuitively, 65536 should be easy, but it'll take 30k moves. OUCH!
15:29:23 <Deewiant> int-e: http://www.csie.ntu.edu.tw/~b01902112/9007199254740992/
15:30:56 <int-e> why stop there? doubles can express numbers up to 2^1022 (or so) exactly.
15:31:42 <int-e> the 3d version looks interesting.
15:31:56 <Deewiant> Well, except the infinite ones
15:32:03 <int-e> Deewiant: actually I can prove that 9007199254740992 can't be won.
15:32:29 <int-e> I can't count to 8 :)
15:32:35 <Deewiant> http://phenomist.wordpress.com/2048-variants/
15:36:24 <elliott> int-e: why stop there? there are bignum libraries for JS.
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15:50:15 <Zom-B> 3D is actually a lot easier than 2D
15:53:54 <Jafet> 2048 in hyperbolic space
15:54:35 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, really?
15:55:05 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was more random than that but playing it again it's not
15:55:30 <Jafet> 2048 on Riemannian manifolds
15:59:17 <Jafet> 2048 on the Stone-Čech compactification of a point topology
16:00:57 <Bike> 2048 on a plane
16:02:14 <Jafet> Stop being a radical Bike
16:02:21 <Sgeo> .... apparently I got The Scarlet Letter confused with some book about a fever
16:02:33 <Sgeo> Today's SMBC really didn't make sense
16:03:22 <Phantom_Hoover> speaking of things that don't make sense, http://www.beneath-ceaseless-skies.com/stories/sekhmet-hunts-the-dying-gnosis-a-computation/
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16:12:45 <boily> Deewiant: I hate you. I'm up to 8192.
16:15:42 <Deewiant> boily: You might want to digest int-e's comment: "intuitively, 65536 should be easy, but it'll take 30k moves."
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16:21:13 <int-e> is it possible to prevent a 512 tile?
16:22:27 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/8402.png ... wait, it says "puppies eaten"?!
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16:25:57 <int-e> Ah, the autorun mode at https://sztupy.github.io/2048-Hard/ may answer this question. it managed 128+64+32+32+16+16+16+8+8+4+4+4+2+2+2+2 ... impressive.
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16:40:05 <password2> whats the esolang with the least amount of instructions?
16:42:25 <Deewiant> password2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer
16:45:27 <Taneb> Subtract and jump if negative is a common one
16:47:21 <password2> surpringly not as minamilistic as i thought it would be
16:48:46 <ion> CI – Continues Integration https://www.gitlab.com/products/
16:49:08 <b_jonas> I made a machine with subtract as the only instruction, but it's cheating because it has some memory-mapped magical registers for extra instructions.
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17:00:39 <ion> http://www.wallpapersshop.net/wallpaper/moscow-city-night-winter/ (It seems i live in Moscow now.)
17:01:21 <boily> ion: do people attempt to lick you in moscow too?
17:02:01 <ion> There has been a worrying lack of attempts to lick me recently.
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17:03:37 <boily> ion: you should bring a sign with something to the effect of "Пожалуйста, пожалуйста, лизать Ion." (disclaimer, caveat emptor and all that sort of thing: that went through Google. I am not responsible for damage incurred.)
17:04:56 <password2> mmm , lets see if i can do Fibonacci in bf^
17:05:09 <ion> boily: That sounds like a good idea.
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17:45:26 <ion> http://www.theonion.com/articles/thanks-for-being-so-cool-about-everything,35584/?utm_source=butt&utm_medium=butt&utm_campaign=butt
17:48:22 <tromp__> b_jonas: an increment register instruction coupled with a subtract and jump if zero instruction is turing complete
17:48:56 <tromp__> i mean decrement, not subtract
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17:53:06 <int-e> ion: honestly I find Kerry's statement ("You just don't in the 21st century behave in 19th century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped up pre-text,") much funnier than that whole article.
17:54:32 <b_jonas> tromp__: sure, that kind of thing is fine, I just chose a particularly ugly and bad way to realize this into a machine, and then wrote a single buggy program for it. I should try a cleaner design later.
17:54:50 <b_jonas> I do mean subtract though, not decrement
18:01:07 <int-e> So you can add, too.
18:02:47 <b_jonas> and copy too, which is useful
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18:35:49 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like +- except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
18:36:35 <myname> is it relative addressing?
18:37:05 <myname> and how can be { like +-? that's like a nop
18:37:14 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++>+++>+++++++++++>+++++++++<<<
18:38:09 <myname> ah, that - is meant to be an emdash
18:39:35 <myname> how does it know when i want to increment and when i want to decrement?
18:39:37 <password2> it subtracts one from the cell is pointing the current cell is pointing to
18:40:05 <myname> i thought it's adding?
18:40:10 <password2> {} is increment and ecrement , but it increments that value the current cell points to
18:41:34 <myname> then i don't get when it increments and when it doesn't
18:41:41 <password2> { looks at the current cell and edits the cell this one points to
18:42:10 <myname> i thought "points to" meant the directio of the symbol
18:43:08 <myname> in that case, i'd swith {}
18:43:27 <myname> } looks more "adding" to me
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18:46:11 <password2> in this case the } looks at cell0 , which contain4 and then increments cell4
18:48:17 <myname> i still find it confusing that it states "{} is like +-" and later "dec/inc"
18:52:57 <password2> how do people manage to write complex programs in bf
18:53:20 <zzo38> password2: Sometimes by hand, and sometimes using other compilers.
18:53:49 <password2> i tried Fibonacci , but gave up soon
18:54:53 <myname> isn't fibonacci straight forward?
18:55:06 <myname> you just have to make (a,b) into (b,a+b)
18:55:29 <myname> plus one to memorize a value
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18:55:45 <myname> 4 cells should be enough to get the nth fibonacci number
18:56:36 <password2> and if you want to have the seqeunce in ram
18:57:29 <myname> move a to cell 3 first
18:57:39 <myname> then add b to cell 2 and 3
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18:58:49 <myname> just getting the nth fibb should be pretty easy
18:59:29 <myname> how does your bot handly input, now?
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19:00:46 <myname> +bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]]
19:01:29 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]]
19:01:46 <myname> still not what i wanted
19:02:21 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<]
19:03:42 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<
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19:04:13 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<-]
19:04:34 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:++++++>>+<<[>>[->+<]<[->+<]>>[-<+<+>>]<<<-]
19:06:02 <myname> just put n in the first cell and you will get the nth fibbonacci number at the third cell
19:06:17 <myname> you may move it to the first after the loop
19:07:05 <password2> not really what i was trying to do
19:08:27 <myname> i do think the main problem with your approach is to stop
19:09:37 <password2> i think with the addons it might be a little easier
19:13:26 <myname> +bfreset:+bf:+>+>+++[[->>>+<<<]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]>[-<+>]<-]
19:14:33 <myname> i cheated a bit starting with 1 1 (n-2), but well
19:19:27 <myname> you just have to start thinking in steps that are possible in bf
19:19:46 <myname> especially stuff like saving a value you are about to consume
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19:20:30 <Slereah_> Man I'm trying to reverse engineer the old Monkey Island sound files
19:23:05 <Slereah_> For some reason, they go take a value in some part of the memory
19:23:18 <Slereah_> And then divide it by a value from another part of the memory
19:23:34 <Slereah_> Before sending it to the PC speaker
19:24:52 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:++++++>+++>+>+<<<->({++}+}---)(++{--)+(++{--})
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19:26:28 <myname> passwordBOT: i am pretty sure you can save a lot of instructions with your modifications if you deal with your n right, but then again: you have to have a n-1 and n-2 to fully make use of it
19:26:59 <myname> password2: i meant you
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20:05:03 <password2> +bfreset:+bf:+++++++++++>+++>+>+<<<[->({+++}+}----)+++({---}+++)+({---}+++)-----({+++}+}----) +++({---}+++)+({--}++)--<]
20:05:57 <nortti> what do the {} and () do?
20:06:20 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like -+ except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
20:06:21 <Bike> || is the current pointer? nice.
20:06:22 <myname> () is [] with relative addresses
20:06:36 <myname> {} are -+ with relative addresses
20:07:29 <nortti> kind of reminds me about the zero page (or what was it called)
20:08:09 <password2> its kinda fun playing around with the relative adressing
20:08:15 <b_jonas> where's the wiki page for that language?
20:08:43 <password2> (+) , will find the first empty cell
20:10:30 <nortti> well, as long as that cell is within the first 256
20:11:35 <myname> don't see any point in limiting the value of bf cells
20:12:21 <nortti> well, the original bf was just a description what the implementation did
20:12:54 <nortti> and because many programs rely on the wraparound, it is usually implemented so
20:13:32 <nortti> but nothing stops anyone from making a bigint brainfuck. actually, I think the original turing completeness proof used a variation with bigint cells
20:13:37 <Bike> +bfreset:+bf:+[+]:+bfdump
20:14:11 <myname> i do think the +bfdump was it
20:14:24 <Bike> +bfreset:+bf:+[+]:+bfdump:
20:15:06 <myname> the parsing is a bit broken
20:16:01 <password2> +bfreset:+bf: is the only combo i made sure to work
20:19:27 <password2> gonna add flags for auton dumping and auto resetting of tape
20:20:48 <myname> most of the time, you are more interested starting in a new tape rather than working on an existing one
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20:25:54 <myname> shouldn't +(+) result in 1 |0|?
20:29:10 <password2> mm , i should make 'Done' anouncement optional too
20:31:35 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
20:31:35 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
20:31:57 <nortti> a tape that wraps around?
20:32:18 <password2> the tape is actually much much longer though
20:33:20 <myname> but there is something inside tat
20:33:27 <nortti> and how would it be different from a circular?
20:33:47 <nortti> hmm, or reverses the bits
20:33:57 <b_jonas> the second half of the tape would be aliased to the first half but with cells transformed in some way
20:33:59 <myname> nortti: maybe if you could have actions on both sides
20:37:13 <password2> pointer does wrap , but the display does not update right it seems
20:37:36 <password2> it would be due that i only so 64ish first cells
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20:41:09 <password2> bfmemory[ 0 ] 255 bfmemory[ 171 ] 1
20:41:17 <quintopia> yeah a mobius tape would be a tape where the polarity swaps every time you wrap
20:41:34 <quintopia> because you're incrementing "from the other side"...aka decrementing
20:42:19 <password2> mmm , if i revamp code some more , then i'll be able to do it easily
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20:43:54 <myname> quintopia: that makes sense
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20:50:22 <nortti> 22:49 < password2> sorry , had to reboot internet <-- that wording suggests something else
20:52:50 <password2> anyone wanna see a mobius version?
20:55:34 <password2> damn , my bf class is at 420 lines already
20:56:21 <Taneb> password2, blaze it
20:58:23 <password2> should it be that +- == -+ ; {} == }{ ?
21:01:54 <quintopia> actually, i wonder what bf joust would be like on a mobius tape (w/ wrapping instead of suiciding). making the flags equally spaced in BOTH directions of course
21:03:26 <nortti> http://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/?p=3910
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21:03:44 <quintopia> myname: okay i'll let you write it. be sure to make it blindingly fast.
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21:04:08 <password2> instes of starting cmd with +bf , use +bfmob
21:04:40 -!- ket1v has joined.
21:05:46 <password2> fogot to make an object of the class
21:06:44 <myname> quintopia: like, written in assembly?
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21:07:48 <quintopia> myname: the current fastest bfjoust interpreter is in C. if you can beat gearlance, it's fast enough :D
21:08:38 <password2> "255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 "
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21:10:18 <passwordBOT> 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:10:48 -!- elliott has set topic: a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness of no HackEgo | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
21:11:28 <passwordBOT> 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:13:11 <password2> quintopia, if you can say what the exact error is , sure
21:13:40 <quintopia> password2: the output should be 0 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 ...
21:16:26 <myname> +[>+] should be 0 255 255 255 ...?
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21:17:11 * int-e wonders which bf dialect that is ...
21:17:29 <myname> int-e: bf on a möbius stripe, obviously
21:17:57 <int-e> I didn't pay attention, and "mob" is a word on its own.
21:18:31 <int-e> (which makes it sound like a multithreaded variant)
21:18:37 <passwordBOT> 1 255 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254 254
21:18:49 <myname> if i make a flash clone that works on a mäbios stripe, will it be flash mob?
21:19:25 <myname> quintopia: the problem being what?
21:19:55 <myname> but being insane shouldn't
21:20:49 <myname> password2: looks wrong
21:21:08 <password2> but i cant see any errors this side
21:21:13 <myname> +[>+] makes 257 + operations, the last being swapped
21:21:23 <myname> which results in |0| 1 1 1 ...
21:21:35 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:21:43 <quintopia> he's starting with + and - swapped
21:22:07 <passwordBOT> 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:22:34 <passwordBOT> 1 |0| 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
21:22:44 <password2> i think I'll shrink the mem size a bit first
21:22:55 <password2> until i can figure out what is wrong
21:23:16 <myname> but you agree that +[>+] should result in |0| 1 1 1 ...?
21:23:56 <int-e> do you swap the polarity of +/- operations or do you actually negate the values?
21:23:59 <myname> well, it should just + until the end of the tape
21:24:14 <myname> make a +, that is now a -
21:24:21 <myname> making the first cell to 0
21:24:41 <int-e> if you negate values on wraparound, |0| 255 255 255 ... would make sense.
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21:26:10 <passwordBOT> 255 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 |0| 1 1 1
21:26:30 <myname> +bdmod:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
21:26:34 <myname> +bfmod:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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21:26:49 <myname> +bfmob:+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
21:27:12 <myname> that is not the right thing
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21:28:22 <password2> hopefully everything will work now
21:28:33 <passwordBOT> |0| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
21:28:49 <int-e> +bfmob: +[>+]-[>-]
21:28:50 <passwordBOT> |0| 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
21:29:18 <passwordBOT> 0 1 |0| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
21:29:46 <passwordBOT> |0| 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
21:30:46 <int-e> +bfmob:+[>+]>[[->+<]>]
21:31:39 <int-e> +bfmob:+[>+]<[>[-<+>]<<]
21:32:21 <quintopia> < password2> ok mem size is now 32 cells
21:35:02 <password2> do you want me to make it 255 again?
21:37:22 <Slereah_> if I do something like mov [boner], ax
21:38:51 <kmc> ds is the default segment for most loads/stores
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21:39:32 <Sgeo> What about C3?
21:40:05 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bfmoblist: +bfmob: +bfmobreset: +bfmobdump: +bfmobdumpascii:. bf mobius invert -+ upon tape looping.<quintopia> because you're incrementing "from the other side"...aka decrementing
21:40:07 <myname> boner offset sounda durty
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21:41:07 <kmc> Slereah_: I think something like mov [esp], ax will use ss instead of ds by default, but I'm not certain
21:41:22 <zzo38> I didn't know that DOS Navigator is open-source now, until I checked. I used that program some time ago!
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21:42:14 <fizzie> Also for references involving bp/ebp, which might conceivably confuse someone using it as a general register.
21:42:17 <kmc> Slereah_: oh, bp / ebp also... efb
21:43:05 <kmc> and string instructions have their own rules, e.g. movsb moves from ds:si to es:di
21:43:08 <kmc> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3948961/what-segment-is-used-by-default-in-x86-indirect-addressing
21:44:44 <zzo38> I made up one other chess variant, but it is currently hidden pending review.
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22:06:42 <Bicyclidine> Hey web programmers, an interesting thing is happening to me.
22:06:55 <Bicyclidine> I tried to get on Something Awful and a notice popped up from Greyhound that the site is blocked.
22:07:13 <oerjan> maybe they think there's something awful there
22:07:15 <Bicyclidine> The interesting part is, I'm sitting in a library and the nearest Greyhound stop is miles away.
22:08:18 <Bicyclidine> i was riding the bus yesterday... did they like, censor my computer somehow
22:08:36 <Bicyclidine> force reloading fixes it... god, what the fuck, though?
22:08:51 <Taneb> Browser caching, maybe?
22:09:11 <Bicyclidine> I didn't try accessing something awful from the bus, though.
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22:10:20 <Jafet> One of the websites I use has a truncated javascript file permanently stuck in the browser cache, somehow
22:10:38 <Jafet> Solved by using only that website with a different profile
22:10:53 <Sgeo> Gregor: are you Scott Adams?/
22:11:10 <Taneb> Sgeo, I don't know but I am Charles Adams
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22:24:55 <quintopia> boily!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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22:30:11 <oerjan> <-- how well it is doing compared to the programs on the size 50 hill. i don't think any of those have managed to get onto the hill yet.
22:30:19 <oerjan> <password2> what does the score mean? <-- how well it is doing compared to the programs on the size 50 hill. i don't think any of those have managed to get onto the hill yet.
22:31:24 <boily> quintopia: of course it's evening here, but it's morning.
22:31:26 <oerjan> i forgot to paste the quote (which i'm always doing last because it sometimes ends up containing a newline)
22:31:49 <boily> Taneb: doing well. I was with girlfriend.
22:31:56 <boily> quintopia: ????????????????????????????????????????
22:32:04 <boily> (¿ also, to balance the ?)
22:32:06 <Taneb> boily, ooh that is good
22:32:18 <quintopia> boily: wanna go canoe the milk river with me
22:32:20 <oerjan> password2: the top score is usually around 50 or so iirc
22:32:26 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
22:32:30 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
22:32:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
22:32:44 <oerjan> hm it doesn't say there
22:32:50 <boily> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
22:33:00 <oerjan> boily: well at least it's _there_
22:33:05 <boily> quintopia: is it cold outside where the milk river is?
22:33:15 <password2> I'm adding input to my bf interpreter
22:33:26 <boily> oerjan: hm. let me rephrase the noooo. “MAYBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!”
22:35:08 <oerjan> password2: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt is the current, top is just above 50
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22:35:57 <oerjan> hm i guess the bottom three are from today's experimenting
22:35:57 <password2> how does a program get "up the hill" ?
22:36:23 <oerjan> password2: when you submit one, it fights against all the ones already there
22:36:43 <kmc> `run echo hi
22:36:56 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:36:57 <oerjan> and then the scores are recalculated
22:37:20 <oerjan> (using the points already stored, for fights between those already there)
22:37:41 <boily> I wonder is we could manage to get fungot to submit a valid non-zero-scoring bfjoust program.
22:37:41 <fungot> boily: when old age shall this generation waste, but did not become terrified. it is amusing to reflect that the silent pursuing gugs would not be the first to be approached by the several outsiders who took advantage of the fnord
22:37:51 <oerjan> the points are calculated by the big table on bottom
22:40:39 <Taneb> !bfjoust >>>>>>>>>[[-][-.]>]
22:40:39 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
22:40:54 <Taneb> !bfjoust dunno >>>>>>>>>[[-][-.]>]
22:40:57 <EgoBot> Score for Taneb_dunno: 6.5
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22:41:03 <Taneb> Well, that wasn't awful
22:42:26 <boily> Bicyclidine: “.” is wait.
22:44:13 <quintopia> Bicyclidine: . is NOP, , is comment
22:44:16 <password2> it seems i am stil making an error somewhere in my code
22:45:36 <oerjan> +bf:,>,>,>,.<.<.!Testing
22:46:26 <oerjan> +bf:++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:46:41 <oerjan> ^bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
22:47:04 <password2> output is sorted , its input that i m messing up
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22:49:12 <elliott> fizzie: esolangs.org points to the right place for me now
22:49:36 <oerjan> +bf:,>,>,>,!1234567890
22:49:46 <elliott> fizzie: also you might want to add something about hosting the wiki somewhere so people can bug you :p
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22:49:53 <oerjan> password2: oh hex, how useless
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22:50:49 <fizzie> elliott: I've still got 42575 seconds left of the old IP address on my nearest DNS server.
22:51:23 <oerjan> is the old address down, because the wiki loaded fine here
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22:52:09 <fizzie> oerjan: Last I heard, it was read-only but not down.
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22:52:48 <elliott> fizzie: yeah, I'm surprised I got it so fast
22:52:59 <elliott> oerjan: you can tell by going to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges and seeing if the latest change is by me.
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22:53:52 <oerjan> does that mean it's the old or new one though
22:56:45 <password2> 1 o clock is a good time to pass out
22:57:24 <oerjan> +bf:,[.,]!486578207375636b73
22:58:28 <password2> i might add a input type flag later
22:59:06 <oerjan> you realize ! is the standard so it should work normally hth
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23:04:34 <password2> +bf:+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+>+><<<<<<<<<<<(+)
23:06:02 <coppro> that sounds too complicated for bf
23:06:20 <passwordBOT> Commands are +bflist: +bf: +bfreset: +bfdump: +bfdumpascii:. This bf interpreter has pointer too!Type +bfop: for a qiuck list
23:06:35 <passwordBOT> brainfuck^ opperators are []()<>+-{},. () is like [] except it uses the value the current cell points to , {} is like -+ except it dec/inc the value the cell points to
23:08:15 <passwordBOT> |2| 1 0 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255 255
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23:11:32 <quintopia> coppro: indirection seems like a nice feature that isn't overly complicated. it'd kinda be cool if bfjoust had it. it'd make golfed warriors a lot more powerful
23:12:34 <quintopia> now i kinda want to make a bf^joust twitterbot
23:14:18 <coppro> indirection would be interesting in bfjoust, definitely
23:14:25 <coppro> but it's not a fundamental bf feature
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23:29:46 <zzo38> kcashbor: What about Wikileaks?
23:30:04 <Taneb> elliott, there was someone similar in the Haskell channel a few minutes ago
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23:40:16 <kmc> jerkcity.com
23:42:49 <Bicyclidine> http://31.media.tumblr.com/f970070fceb0518bb01ca9e2bb84f10f/tumblr_n2octpAQfj1snfhwio1_1280.jpg it's like, why continue with the artform after its peak
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