00:01:17 <oerjan> (making an actual circular spiral left as exercise for the reader)
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01:50:06 <oerjan> to split, perchance to roam
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03:49:57 * Sgeo remembers when he believed VRML could never have gravity. Now VRML is dead.
03:50:10 <Sgeo> (And has gravity)
03:52:50 <oerjan> y'all are giving me `addquote withdrawal.
03:57:40 <kmc> just do it anyway and someone will grep the logs later
03:58:32 <kmc> did I mention that Rust actually does have quasiquote!!! https://github.com/kmcallister/html5/blob/master/macros/named_entities.rs#L103-L110
03:58:34 <oerjan> kmc: but `pastelogs wasn't working even when HackEgo was
03:59:30 <oerjan> (iiuc Gregor didn't bother to move them to same machine - or worse, he may have moved them apart precisely to use less resources on each host)
04:00:58 <oerjan> basically Gregor is evil, and now he hosts the wiki too!
04:01:15 <kmc> i thought fizzie was runnig the wiki
04:01:18 <kmc> or is running != hosting
04:01:28 <oerjan> indeed running != hosting
04:01:46 <oerjan> elliott couldn't convince one of them to do the whole job alone
04:04:02 <Sgeo> ADdicfted to http://animuchan.net/moz_game/
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04:10:08 <Sgeo> Game over. Deaths: 144
04:10:15 <Sgeo> Although I had to restart once because closed the tab
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04:13:30 <Sgeo> The original 2d version has different music
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04:17:05 <ion> I’m not a huge fan of the input latency
04:17:49 <Sgeo> The 3d or 2d version, or do both have it?
04:18:03 <ion> The one you linked
04:20:11 <Sgeo> Try http://www.lessmilk.com/3/ and see if it's better?
04:20:21 <ion> Yeah, just trying it. It seems to be better indeed.
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04:22:15 <Sgeo> Wonder if it's graphics card related
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04:22:49 <ion> Died 127 times.
04:22:59 <ion> The framerate was fine, there was just a noticeable input lag.
04:23:52 <kmc> VVVVVV has better music
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04:26:13 <kmc> 78 times (on the 2D version)
04:27:17 <Sgeo> http://www.lessmilk.com/8/
04:28:58 <Sgeo> I am struggling with what looked like a simple game
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04:30:54 <ion> “- you are not supposed to see this -”
04:31:14 <ion> And it wouldn’t let me type that and the bomb dropped to the city.
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04:32:33 <Sgeo> People in comments saying that enter works for -
04:33:14 <Sgeo> I can't get that far though
04:33:19 <Sgeo> The gibberish trips me up
04:34:41 <ion> Enter worked, then it said “are you a hacker? -” and wouldn’t let me type the question mark.
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04:36:23 <Sgeo> If it's possible to type the question mark, comments don't know how
04:36:30 <Sgeo> And in the source, there are no sentences beyond that
04:36:52 <kmc> llllook at you hacker, a pathetic creature of meat and bone
04:37:21 <ion> an ugly sack of mostly water
04:40:50 <Bike> is bone so much different from meat, when you think about it
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04:41:44 <kmc> Bike: bone makes better soup broth
04:42:02 <kmc> sometimes I come home and there is a pound of chicken feet in the refridgerator and this is why
04:42:36 <Bike> bone is so complicated though http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Caput_femoris_cortex_medulla.jpg
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04:51:27 <kmc> im gonna write all the macros
04:52:19 <Bike> kmc's a big fan of paul graham
04:52:54 <newsham> paul graham is a genius.. he must be.. he is rich!
04:53:36 <newsham> soon arc will have dozens of users!
04:54:03 <ion> Larry Graham is pretty cool, too. He invented the slap bass technique. We seem to have enough samples to make an extrapolation about all people named Graham.
04:54:24 <kmc> what about graham's number
04:54:55 <oerjan> well that's an outlier by nearly all measure
04:54:55 <kmc> fuck sylvester graham tho
04:55:09 <kmc> he invented the graham cracker as a food so boring it would make people want to stop having sex
04:55:38 <newsham> how do you explain s'mores?
04:55:51 <kmc> I don't fucking understand why people get so upset about teenagers masturbating
04:56:01 <Bike> they'll go blind
04:56:25 <kmc> isn't it healthier and more harmless than basically anything else they'd be doing
04:57:33 <kmc> here's an activity that feels good, is good for you, requires no special equipment and consumes almost no resources... WE MUST STOP IT AT ALL COSTS
04:58:04 <Bike> way to be a shill for the masturbation lobby
04:58:12 <newsham> "tell a doctor if you experience uncontrolled muscle movement, as this can become permanent"
04:58:20 <newsham> why do peopel buy these poisons?
04:58:31 <kmc> Bike: they're just looking for a handout
04:58:34 <kmc> greasing some palms in washington
04:59:54 <prooftechnique> Well, I imagine if you're depressed the idea of uncontrolled muscle movement has to be weighed against crushing emptiness
05:00:17 <newsham> you know whas worse than the feeling of crushing emptiness?
05:00:26 <newsham> actual literal crushing emptiness
05:00:26 <Bike> abilify, jesus
05:00:29 <ion> https://twitter.com/pbowden/status/448579361353240576
05:00:36 <newsham> another side effect of abilify
05:00:39 <Bike> trade names are a scourge
05:01:06 <Bike> oh hey it's got chlorines...
05:01:38 <newsham> i imagine people would be better if someone just sold them some pot or even some crack or heroin
05:02:02 <Bike> when you assume, you make an
05:03:12 <kmc> ion: bahaha
05:03:20 <ion> presumption
05:03:45 <kmc> I would guess that something named "aripiprazole" is harder to market
05:04:16 <newsham> best part about smoking pot: doesn't give you parkinson's disease
05:04:24 <Bike> it's not my fault the public is inadequately knowledgeable about orgo
05:04:53 <Bike> parkinsonism isn't parkinson's disease.
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05:05:57 <prooftechnique> newsham: I would say there are certain even better parts to smoking pot
05:06:12 <kmc> you realize that the side effects don't happen to everyone right?
05:06:16 <kmc> and that crack is also known to have side effects
05:06:34 <newsham> no, kmc, this did not occur to me
05:06:59 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabidiol#Isomerism huh, that's interesting
05:07:13 <kmc> that's good stuff
05:07:22 <newsham> proof: you realize that not everyone that takes crack is fun at parties
05:07:47 <kmc> not everyone that takes crack is mayor of toronto
05:07:49 <Bike> if orgo people embraced the combinatorics inherent in the field i would be one happy camper
05:08:00 <Bike> no word on whether i'd be a high camper
05:08:09 <kmc> Bike: I had an idea that orgo synthesis is like proofs
05:08:27 <Bike> long if you're doing anything nontrivial, and nobody reads them?
05:08:41 <kmc> you have a system of formal objects (labeled graphs, rather than strings), and certain templated manipulations on them
05:08:45 * Bike still burnt out after learning cortisone synthesis
05:08:48 <kmc> and you need to derive a result from some available premises
05:08:51 <kmc> but this breaks down in all kinds of ways
05:09:10 <kmc> aiui a lot of the steps are like "this will yield between 5% and 95% and nobody knows why"
05:09:11 <Bike> yeah, like when you need to do some spectrometry to verify that you've gotten the right product
05:09:28 <kmc> Bike: tell me about cortisone synthesis
05:09:39 <kmc> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/CubaneSynthesis.png
05:09:52 <Bike> there's a biochemist nanotech guy in #lisp doing something horrifying with SMILES. i tried reading one of his papers and holy shit he was like inventing his own analog of proteins??
05:10:35 <Bike> well, i was reading my intro endocrinology book and it mentioned that cortisone production was the hardest thing ever attempted by the pharm industry (this was in the 60s)
05:11:02 <Sgeo> I have no idea what music is playing on the 3d version
05:11:09 <Bike> the natural methods involved, like, getting several thousand tons of cattle, ripping out a few glands, extracting certain chemicals, and ending up with a yield on the order of grams, so i could see why they'd want to do synthesis
05:11:10 <Sgeo> Seems to be encoded via LAME though
05:11:17 <Sgeo> http://animuchan.net/moz_game/media/audio/music.mp3
05:11:26 <kmc> also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octanitrocubane which would be the best explosive ever if anybody could manage to make it
05:11:37 <Bike> so i looked it up and it was like, you started out with this complex organic thing that was already produced
05:11:57 <kmc> hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane
05:12:01 <Bike> and then you went through, literally, over twenty steps, some of which take over a day, and half of which came with spectrograms to verify that it worked
05:12:04 <kmc> is an exciting word
05:12:18 <Bike> and that got you a precursor, which through three more twenty-step procedures got you another compound
05:12:24 <Bike> and that other compound had a known path to cortisone.
05:14:09 <kmc> newsham: I find weed to be pretty effective at treating acute symptoms of depression and anxiety, but it doesn't really help me in the long term when I'm not stoned
05:14:15 <kmc> except in the sense that it's nice to have a fucking break
05:14:24 <kmc> also, it's not always helpful
05:14:37 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_Calvin_Kendall_nobel.jpg edward kendall is watching you kill animals
05:14:46 <kmc> frequently makes anxiety worse, although indica strains less so in my recent experience
05:14:50 <kmc> prooftechnique: i've heard that
05:15:17 <kmc> I used to take 5HT psychedelics every few weeks and that was pretty effective too, but I don't think I'm up for it anymore
05:15:36 <Jafet> fizzie should make an IUPAC name generator
05:15:56 <Bike> huh, tetrahedrane is harder to synthesize than truncated icosahedron -ane
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05:17:51 <Bike> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ci00062a010 hell fucking yes
05:18:19 <quintopia> when i asked you guys which game i should play next you all either said Braid or Bastion. No one picked Limbo. And Limbo is so much more fun than Braid.
05:20:02 <kmc> wait CBD isn't a scheduled drug at all? interesting
05:20:11 <kmc> unless it's derived from the demon reefer, of course
05:21:08 <pikhq> As we all know, what makes something "bad" is actually its origin.
05:21:30 <pikhq> This is why I use only pipes made of free-range lead.
05:21:55 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TMS-tetrahedrane-3D-vdW.png "sup"
05:22:49 <Bike> kmc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol#Isomerism i like how different isomers are scheduled differently
05:23:59 <Bike> kmc: actually now that i think about it that's another flaw with the labeled graphs thing, you need to distinguish isomers...
05:25:32 <kmc> coming up with a good formal model of the molecules is non-trivial, but could be done
05:25:37 <kmc> that's what systemic naming is already about
05:25:45 <kmc> but I think formally modeling the reaction steps is the really hard part
05:25:53 <prooftechnique> I dunno. I was just thinking that colorings of the graphs could be used to represent isomers
05:26:07 <Bike> i'm seriously pretty skeptical that IUPAC nomenclature is actually used for anything more complicated than like, dopamine
05:26:25 <Bike> and god i have no idea how organic reactions work.
05:26:39 <Bike> i hear in orgo 1 classes you have to memorize a shitload of reactions because they don't tell you the theory until orgo 2 ;_;
05:28:08 <Bike> perhaps i can fix this with a bit of pauling, who explains quantum before table salt
05:28:09 <quintopia> prooftechnique: Limbo reminded me of ayim at times
05:28:38 <quintopia> prooftechnique: but ayim plays in one hour, while Limbo manages to last 3.
05:28:57 <kmc> also at my school ochem was at 9 in the morning and was one of the few classes with in-class tests and quizzes
05:29:23 <Bike> prooftechnique: i have an undergrad textbook he wrote.
05:29:28 <Bike> it's kinda dated but still pauling
05:29:52 <pikhq> Bike: Yep, chemistry education seems to pretend that injecting a book in your head is the important part.
05:30:06 <Bike> it's so sad! i honestly love the theory
05:30:35 <Bike> i can kind of understand why they'd want to back away from it, you need to be able to do like, quantum electrothermodynamics
05:30:56 <Bike> which, honestly, in my not-fully-a-chemist career i'm never going to use, so
05:32:11 <kmc> Bike: as long as you know enough to synthesize LSD for me
05:32:40 <Bike> "following a recipe without burning myself alive" will hopefully be in my capabilities
05:32:49 <kmc> it's p. complicated
05:32:53 <Bike> though i ddid nearly go into lab in shorts today...
05:32:57 <Sgeo> http://www.souleye.se/adventure music by the person who made VVVVVV music, including remixes of the VVVVVV songs
05:33:26 <Bike> we actually weren't working with anything caustic, lol. just some dye
05:34:06 <Sgeo> "This album contains, among other things, the two missing tracks from VVVVVV 2.0 that didn't make it to PPPPPP, the remix of Predestined Fate that was in VVVVVV 3DS, the completely reworked VVVVVV tracks used in the game Pulsen, remixes of game tunes my friends wanted me to make, polished up material from my site, entirely NEW content AND secret bonus tracks! "
05:34:23 <kmc> maybe one day you'll be a grad student and you'll have to be a TA for Intro Chem Lab For People Who Don't Give A Fuck
05:36:22 <Bike> i'll have to TA something, that's for sure
05:36:30 <Bike> i kind of regret being good at math because what if i get a job TAing math?
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05:42:07 <kmc> I know that grad students, as a rule, drink heavily, but do statisticians have a particular fondness for Guinness?
05:43:14 <prooftechnique> In particular, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student%27s_t-test
05:43:17 <pikhq> Oh, right. The test that was made by a Guinness employee. :)
05:44:58 * Bike notices he has no idea what statistics researchers do nowadays
05:45:36 <Bike> well everybody does that
05:46:05 <Bike> Ioannidis isn't even a statistician...
05:46:14 <Bike> (i mean, so to speak)
05:46:35 <oerjan> Bike: just random stuff hth
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05:58:43 <Sgeo> Thanks, FedEx, for that commercial, which would totally convince me to use your services... if it was the shipee that chose the carrier
05:59:27 <lexande> the merchant may offer you some kind of choice
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06:08:08 <Sgeo> Wonder if anyone goes to Smalltalk places thinking it will help them with conversation skills
06:09:23 <kmc> wonder if anyone goes to Smalltalk places
06:09:39 <prooftechnique> I imagine all the Self places are full of aimless 30-somethings
06:09:57 <lexande> where do the aimless 20-somethings go?
06:23:41 <kmc> Bike: consuming some CBD right now
06:23:51 <Bike> consume that shit good, pardner
06:23:55 <kmc> don't know which isomer
06:24:52 <Bike> i never toke without a spectrometer
06:33:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Incidentally, the wiki is now running on the same machine HackEgo is. (But I don't really know anything about hackbot, so I shouldn't probably go poking around trying to find why it's all "No output." these days.)
06:34:05 <Zom-B|zz> piet http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=559
06:35:54 <kmc> nah just fix it
06:36:26 <oerjan> Zom-B|zz: fizzie made that
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06:37:53 <oerjan> no, that's a collaborative comic site
06:38:23 <oerjan> which is admined by david morgan-mar, piet's creator, although the comic has no other relation to piet
06:38:31 <Bike> no i like the idea that fizzie blogs in the form of edited garfield comics
06:39:05 <oerjan> zem.fi is fizzie's site
06:39:26 <oerjan> i'm not sure he has a blog there, i just keep seeing post unconnected links
06:40:21 <oklopol> there's something called a blog at lesat
06:40:26 <Zom-B|zz> what do you mean with admined?
06:41:26 <oerjan> Zom-B|zz: that he's the sysadmin for all of mezzacotta.net, as well as some other sites which are linked from there
06:42:01 <oklopol> i was wondering how you could possibly know that
06:42:40 <Zom-B|zz> David Morgan-Mar only did some comics ther (found via te authors tab)
06:43:01 <oerjan> david morgan-mar's own blog, dangermouse.net, is _not_ linked immediately from any obvious place in mezzacotta though, i think.
06:43:56 <Zom-B|zz> maybe i'll send him a note about my piet-inspired Floater
06:43:57 <oerjan> Zom-B|zz: irregular webcomic was dmm's personal comic. he's starting up a new personal comic in april btw
06:44:43 <oerjan> and darths & droids is not dmm's comic alone, but it has a small set of authors (all his coworkers, i believe)
06:44:59 <Zom-B|zz> i'm still in the progress of making a mandelbrot fractal ans other stuff in Floater, but as expected my job is slurping all my time
06:45:03 <oerjan> the rest on there is collaborative in some way or other
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06:45:17 <Bike> jobs more like terrible
06:46:13 <Bike> "I was the same way for a long time, and I think it’s because Achewood is so tightly character-focused that, if you’re not familiar with it, it just looks like a bunch of weird dogs saying weird words to each other. Turns out, those dogs are actually cats. Who knew?" ok
06:49:19 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't know manyhills other than from seeing him on that site, but i think Taneb knew him from some other place too
06:49:59 <oerjan> well i _vaguely_ recall he may have been here on the channel some time i wasn't.
06:50:09 <oerjan> or wasn't paying enough attention.
06:51:57 <oerjan> Bike: hm isn't only one of the dogs a cat? not that i pay much attention to achewood
06:52:08 <Bike> i don't either
06:52:59 <oerjan> hm i may be confusing with another comic
06:53:54 <oerjan> oh i think i was thinking of get fuzzy
06:59:20 <shachaf> i thought some of the dogs were dogs and some were cats
06:59:24 <shachaf> and some were other animals
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07:29:15 <fizzie> oerjan: I blogified zem.fi the other day.
07:29:25 <fizzie> oerjan: To make it more trendy, y'see.
07:30:16 <fizzie> oerjan: Even went so far as to convert everything that used to be there into backdated fake "blog posts".
07:34:38 <kmc> CVTTPMVCVTTSS2USMSKB
07:36:10 <fizzie> PCLMULPGATHERDSUWRFNSSDWD
07:36:10 <oklopol> that makes sense because i've been there before but saw no blog
07:36:43 <kmc> how about a quiz that gives you 8 fake mnemonics and 8 real ones and you have to decide which are which
07:39:35 <fizzie> Sounds like the next Flappy Bird to me.
07:40:00 <fizzie> Re the IUPAC name generator, a PCFG might work better there than an ngram model.
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07:52:07 <Bike> probabilistic context-free grammar?
07:54:54 <fizzie> Given that they have so much structure.
07:55:09 <fizzie> Random pubchem IUPAC entry: 2-acetamido-3-[[2-acetamido-3-[[4,5-dihydroxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)-2-(2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxycyclohexyl)oxyoxan-3-yl]amino]-3-oxopropyl]disulfanyl]-N-[4,5-dihydroxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)-2-(2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxycyclohexyl)oxyoxan-3-yl]propanamide
07:57:56 <Bike> i get lost as soon as mido- :/
07:59:24 <Bike> not sure about oxyoxan either
08:01:23 <Bike> kind of unbelievable how complicated "2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxycyclohexyl" is, since the actual structure really isn't
08:04:23 <olsner> would all randomly generated iupac names be real/possible substances?
08:07:30 <Jafet> For improbable values of possible
08:07:40 <Jafet> Are those brackets part of the name
08:08:02 <Bike> yes, they indicate a side chain
08:09:27 <Bike> olsner: you might be able to name some that are physically impossible for reasons not part of IUPAC nomenclature, like if there are too many atoms to fit in three dimensions
08:11:22 <olsner> so what's the probability that fungot randomly generates the cure for cancer?
08:11:23 <fungot> olsner: i get stack overflow... not a lot of energy fnord beyond the blade. except if there's something that is so, the whole design philosophy is based on
08:12:18 <Bike> i was going to say you could probably put huge amounts of atoms in to get stupid shit but apparently cycloicosane has a known structure so fuck, what isn't possible
08:13:14 <oerjan> what's the IUPAC for buckminsterfullerene
08:13:26 <Bike> haha someone's actually synthesized cyclohexacontane
08:13:42 <Bike> (C60-Ih)[5,6]fullerene, how boring
08:13:48 <Bike> (some of t hose are subscripts)
08:14:30 <Bike> "Cyclomagnesation of α,ω-diallenes by EtMgBr in the presence of chemically activated Mg and Cp 2 TiCl 2 catalyst led to the formation of cyclic organomagnesium compounds whose hydrolysis provided gigantic hydrocarbon macrorings with 1,5-cis-disubstituted double bonds." i don't know why you'd do this but it rules
08:15:07 <oerjan> have they made a fake chemistry paper generator yet
08:15:33 <fizzie> (C\{60}-I\{h})[5,6]fullerene seems to be PubChem's syntax for subscripts, good to know.
08:15:34 <Bike> i can't believe this compound exists. imagine buckministerfullerene except all the carbons are just in a stupid circle
08:15:45 <Bike> fizzie: OH BOY more markup ;_;
08:16:14 <fizzie> There's also 2,4-dihydroxy-6-(hydroxymethyl)-6-methyl-2,4-dioxo-1,3,5,2$l^{5},4$l^{5}-trioxadiphosphocan-7-ol where ^ is probably superscript but I don't know about $l.
08:16:16 <oerjan> why didn't they just borrow latex
08:16:39 <oerjan> it would be just using _ instead of \ afaict
08:16:41 <Bike> because god is dead
08:16:53 <Bike> let me tell you about SMILES
08:17:58 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cephalostatine-1.svg the sad thing is, compounds like this actually exist
08:18:27 <Bike> ok the iupac rules
08:18:33 <Bike> «(2S,3R,3'R,3''R,4'S,4a'R,5S,6b'R,8a'S,11a'S,11b'S,13'R,13a'R,13b'S,14'S,16a'S,17b'R,19a'S,22a'S,22b'S,24a'R)-3,3'',13',13b'-Tetrahydroxy-5-(hydroxymethyl)-4',5,5'',5'',11a',13a',14',22a'-octamethyl-4, 4',4'',4a',5,5',5'',6b',7',8',8a',9',11',11a',11b',12',13',13a',13b',14',16a',17b',18',19',19a',20',22',22a',22b',23'-triacontahydro-3H,3''H,24'H-dispiro[furan-2,15'-furo[3'',2'':3',4']cyclopenta[1',2 ':5,6]naphtho[1,2-b]pyrano[3'',4'':2',3'
08:18:40 <Bike> i imagine that cut off
08:19:39 <fizzie> Oh, $l is λ. Well, of course it is.
08:20:15 <oerjan> so i take it SMILES is evil but InChl is worse?
08:21:47 <Bike> as far as i'm concerned they're twin horses of the apocalypse
08:22:27 <Bike> "The InChIKey, sometimes referred to as a hashed InChI, is a fixed length (25 character) condensed digital representation of the InChI that is not human-understandable. The InChIKey specification was released in September 2007 in order to facilitate web searches for chemical compounds, since these were problematic with the full-length InChI.[5] It should be noted that, unlike the InChI, the InChIKey is not unique: though collisions can be c
08:23:09 <Bike> http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.nl/2011/09/inchikey-collision-diy-copypastables.html hell yes. hash collision of hydrocarbons
08:24:08 <oerjan> isn't evolution basically a search for hash collisions of hydrocarbons
08:24:39 <Bike> usually they're not just higher alkanes with a few methyls slapped on though ;p
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10:21:55 -!- int-e has set topic: a variety of colorful fish, but the darkness of HackEgo | PSA: fizzie is running the wiki now, contact him for any problems | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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10:26:38 <boily> `echo Is HackEgo stil as dark as he is?
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10:33:39 <boily> int-hello. ihellon. olsnellor.
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10:58:15 <Jafet> Haskell programmers can search infinite fractal functions lazily using 100k green threads running EDSLs that compile down to native token ring mapreduce shootout cloud but they can't make two libraries build together
10:58:22 <Jafet> Error: Couldn't match type `M.Map Int a0' with `containers-0.5.0.0:Data.Map.Base.Map v0 c0'
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10:59:44 <boily> Jafet: you dared using two libraries in your project? how plebeian of you! the Rightful Compiler was right to snob your code!
11:02:05 <Jafet> Well, when I started out, I wanted to use 16.
11:03:04 <boily> *shocked gasp* *wild flaying* *abject repulsion*
11:04:01 <boily> seriously, the State of the Libraries is abysmal. we really should follow through the propositions of curating a set of well behaved libraries.
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11:07:00 <ion> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/homeopathy-product-recalled-over-fears-it-may-contain-actual-medicine-9217206.html
11:07:38 <olsner> based on the various "how to fix cabal" or "the problem with cabal" posts I've read, I've concluded that no-one knows what the problem really is
11:11:15 <Jafet> It turned out that cabal had happily gone off and installed containers-0.5.5 under a new package. This made it impossible to use that package with any others, which depended on containers-0.5.0.
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12:22:22 <password2> mmm , i wonder if i should release a qt lib for bf^
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13:17:55 <fizzie> Jafet: Bike: http://zem.fi/tmp/iupac.html
13:22:41 <Taneb> Is that a... chemical name generator?
13:23:21 <Jafet> I wasn't actually expecting fizzie to do this.
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13:24:14 <Jafet> How did you get a grammar for that?
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13:27:08 <fizzie> I just built one from the first 100000 IUPAC names of PubChem.
13:27:37 <fizzie> Well, with an a priori structure, that is; no fancy grammar induction there.
13:30:44 <fizzie> The ones that are like "1" are quite boring, but that's more or less a limitation of the framework; there are a number of names that consist of a single "component", and there are a number of dash-separated components that consist of a single digit, so the resulting PCFG will have a reasonably high likelihood for generating a single-digit name, since it can't model dependencies like that.
13:38:37 <Phantom_Hoover> MEANWHILE IN /R/BITCOIN (this one is just perfect): https://pay.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/21g6sx/i_am_a_tax_attorney_here_is_what_the_irs_notice/cgctrb8
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13:50:42 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, thank you again for your DF anthracite mod
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14:14:01 <int-e> wtf. "The State is an engineering problem, not a social problem."
14:15:25 <int-e> oh well, whatever.
14:15:42 <Jafet> Social engineering, the best engineering
14:16:14 <int-e> the author lists the wrong kind of tools
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16:44:54 <Zom-B|aw> found a language thats not on the wiki: http://www.mit.edu/~puzzle/2014/puzzle-solution/callooh_callay_world/
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16:50:10 <myname> The remainder is tweedled, then "unzipped" (modged), and then frolicked
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17:28:01 <kmc> i wrote this an age ago, when I was taking undergrad intro physics https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/9813132
17:28:08 <kmc> it produces output like http://mathb.in/14776
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17:39:35 <kmc> ooh I'd forgotten about srand (time ^ $$ ^ unpack "%L*", `ps axww | gzip -f`);
17:39:49 <kmc> this was at one point recommended by the perl documentation, for cryptographic purposes even http://perldoc.perl.org/5.12.2/functions/srand.html
17:44:22 <myname> would be even better if you could state where you start and where you want to end
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18:00:16 <kmc> also, it's fun how these two C functions produce completely different results:
18:00:17 <kmc> size_t f(int x[10]) { return sizeof(x); }
18:00:17 <kmc> size_t g() { int x[10]; return sizeof(x); }
18:00:46 <kmc> because int *x, int x[], int x[5], and int x[10] are entirely equivalent as function arguments, but not elsewhere
18:13:40 <myname> is that any surprising?
18:15:13 <Taneb> kmc, what about int x[][10]?
18:19:02 <Bike> srand (time ^ $$ ^ unpack "%L*", `ps axww | gzip -f`); <-- lol
18:19:23 <kmc> Taneb: as an argument? that'd be the same as int **x I think
18:19:57 <kmc> myname: I think it's pretty weird and bad; it doesn't surprise me anymore because I know C well
18:21:14 <fizzie> kmc: No, it would be the same as int (*x)[10].
18:21:33 <Zom-B|aw> pointer and int have same size , no?
18:21:35 <kmc> but isn't that the same as int **x, when used as a function argument?
18:21:46 <myname> kmc: well, c is weird and bad :p
18:21:53 <kmc> Zom-B|aw: not guaranteed, and often not in practice
18:22:02 <kmc> for example on amd64 linux
18:22:03 <fizzie> [20:22:38] <fizzie> ,cc size_t f(int x[][10]) { return sizeof *x; } printf("%zu", f(0));
18:22:06 <fizzie> [20:22:40] <candide> fizzie: 40
18:22:19 <kmc> okay, I see
18:22:28 <fizzie> [20:23:09] <fizzie> ,cc size_t f(int **x) { return sizeof *x; } printf("%zu", f(0));
18:22:31 <fizzie> [20:23:11] <candide> fizzie: 8
18:22:36 <kmc> that's even weirder -_-
18:22:56 <kmc> I presume int x[10][10] would work the same?
18:23:22 <fizzie> Yes. It's only the "first level" of arrayness that is altered to be a pointer in a function parameter.
18:23:24 <kmc> Zom-B|aw: if you need a pointer-size integral type there's intptr_t and uintptr_t
18:23:29 <kmc> also ptrdiff_t
18:24:31 <fizzie> With intptr_t/uintptr_t, it's good to keep in mind that the only guaranteed use is from an arbitrary (object) pointer to (u)intptr_t and back again; not from an arbitrary-valued (u)intptr_t to pointer.
18:24:53 <kmc> what are some other examples of bizarre and surprising behavior from C? maybe in the spirit of the JavaScript "Wat" talk
18:24:59 <kmc> integer promotion rules for sure...
18:25:50 <Bike> "chars aren't very good characters"\
18:26:25 <fizzie> Some of the rules involving mixed signed/unsigned values are quite confusing.
18:30:39 <fizzie> Fun fact (disclaimer: from memory, haven't checked): glibc implements some of the <ctype.h> functions (int isprint(int) etc.) using a pointer to the 128th element of a 384-element look-up table, because those are spec'd to take an 'unsigned char' value as an int but presumably people on plain-char-is-signed systems kept passing negative numbers instead.
18:31:41 <fizzie> Arguably, the fact that isprint(c) for a char c can be undefined is surprising?
18:35:12 <fizzie> ("In all cases the argument is an int, the value of which shall be representable as an unsigned char or shall equal the value of the macro EOF. If the argument has any other value, the behavior is undefined." C11 7.4p1)
18:35:28 <Zom-B|aw> complex pointer arithmetic that's just as hard to port to a high language as spaghetti code
18:36:34 <fizzie> Also the function-returning-a-pointer-to-function syntax is p. horrible, but maybe it doesn't coun as "bizarre and surprising".
18:38:05 <fizzie> int (*f(long))(char); declares 'f' as a function that takes one long as an argument, and returns an int (*)(char), i.e., a pointer to a function that takes a char and returns an int.
18:38:32 <Bike> it counts as bizarre fo sho
18:40:45 <fizzie> Then there's the "pointer to a function can't be converted to void *" thing, but maybe that's somewhat mild.
18:42:14 <Zom-B|aw> <fizzie> Also the function-returning-a-pointer-to-function syntax <- solved that with subclassing
18:42:20 <Taneb> Finally set my laptop up to use my bouncer
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18:43:14 <fizzie> I have no idea what "subclassing" means in the context of C.
18:43:53 <Zom-B|aw> in context of a higher language
18:44:15 <Zom-B|aw> also, on the other hand, i hate, how, in high languages, you can't fill an array with 64 bytes and then just 'read' 16 floats from it
18:45:05 <kmc> oh, yeah, signed char is a good one
18:45:06 <Zom-B|aw> time-consuming conversions required where no conversion is actually necessary
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18:46:30 <fizzie> Them BSDs define a "dlfunc" that's exactly like dlsym except it returns a dlfunc_t, an unspecified pointer-to-function type.
18:46:35 <kmc> Zom-B|aw: a lot of things like that in C are not technically allowed, and they happen to work on most common systems, but the compiler is within its rights to slap you for it (i.e. produce code you would consider "buggy" or even perversely wrong)
18:46:38 <Jafet> It's a good thing that high-level languages don't let people like you think you can coerce values wherever you want
18:47:37 <kmc> I like that Rust lets you go between byte-vector and string with no copy -- it's just a cast, and (in one direction) a scan to make sure it's valid UTF-8
18:47:50 <kmc> and this is safe
18:48:13 <fizzie> A lot of things like that cause x86-specific code to fail when compiled on a system that cares about alignment. (The university computer science classrooms used to be all SPARC, and it was quite the nest of SIGBUS.)
18:48:33 <kmc> it's unfortunate that the str API exposes its UTF-8-ness, though
18:48:43 <Jafet> I think std::string is now officially required to give you free casts to char const*
18:48:45 <kmc> it's full of functions that operate on byte offsets and can fail at runtime
18:49:01 <kmc> Jafet: interesting; does that mean they need to store a NULL byte always?
18:49:09 <kmc> Rust strings are not like that and so .with_c_str or whatever can copy :/
18:49:18 <Jafet> Well, nobody cried because every stdlib did that already
18:49:34 <Zom-B|aw> usually my alignment requirements are all aligned
18:50:06 <Jafet> I was surprised to learn that ARM now silently makes unaligned accesses work, like x86 does
18:50:32 <fizzie> Jafet: Was it ARM where you could have a misaligned read silently return a rotated result?
18:51:08 <Jafet> I don't know, but I think ARMv5 raised an exception
18:52:59 <fizzie> Anecdotal information from random forum: "In fact none of [the ARM cores] complains by default. Some return rotated data, some others force the two LSB to 0. Some allow to trap unaligned access, others don't."
18:53:27 <kmc> I thought ISAs were generally supposed to be free of undefined behavior
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19:54:52 <newsham> kmc: heh.. who ever told you such a thing? :)
19:55:42 <newsham> lots of archs leave undefined behavior, like requiring the compiler to fill a delay slot with an instruction after a load or get undefined results
19:55:57 <newsham> gives wiggle room for future optimization
19:56:48 <newsham> re: aligned accesses, ARM cpus often have a register to control if they should trap or be handled.
19:57:30 <newsham> also unaligned access on ARM prob does something you dont expect (ie. the rotation of the unaligned data)
19:57:30 <kmc> but that's more like unspecified behavior than undefined behavior, as C uses those terms, right?
19:58:13 <newsham> hrmm.. i dont know. my guess would be more like C undefined behavior...
19:58:15 <kmc> I mean in the slot after a load you might read the old value or the new one or some garbage, but it won't render the entire program from that point on meaningless
19:58:30 <kmc> or is that not the case?
19:58:44 <newsham> but what about a more aggressive optimization that does speculative computation with O-O-O and reordering?
19:59:00 <newsham> wouldnt that sometimes lead to pretty unpredictable corruption of your future program?
19:59:16 <newsham> honeslty I dont know the answer.. would have to look at the fine print
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20:04:18 <newsham> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjwRe8sIIAAryi0.jpg sudden strange craving for chocolate chip cookies
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20:23:14 <nortti> "James II supposedly described St Paul's Cathedral as "awful", "amusing" and "artificial" — i.e. worthy of awe, giving pleasure and made with artifice."
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20:32:22 <Jafet> If you don't use O-O-O correctly, you may get a... check exception
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21:14:55 <Zom-B|aw> fizzie: my photography friend said "Cool! Nice results!" about your time lapse photos
21:15:11 <lexande> the fact that mathematica's array indexing starts from 1 (and not 0 as it obviously should) came up after class yesterday
21:15:17 <lexande> the mathematicians present blamed the computer scientists and the computer scientists present blamed the mathematicians
21:15:34 <lexande> each side having assumed based on mathematica that that was how the other side did it
21:16:19 <Zom-B|aw> math was invented before the 0, computers after
21:16:32 <Bike_> shoulda blamed the biologists
21:17:12 <Bike_> i was also invented after zero
21:17:21 <lexande> Bike_: yeah that seems more correct, unite against a common enemy. though really we should probably just blame and unite against Wolfram.
21:17:33 <Bike_> hm good point fuck that guy
21:17:45 <Zom-B|aw> you could say your blueprints were 99.99% done long before that
21:21:46 <lexande> "Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration." — Stan Kelly-Bootle
21:22:13 <Bike_> i thought dijkstra's argument was pretty solid
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21:27:13 <shachaf> I,I function Dijkstra'sAlgorithm(Argument Dijkstra'sArgument) { ... }
21:28:39 <shachaf> Dijkstra'sAlgorithm(Dijkstra'sArgument);
21:32:07 <lexande> well the mathematicians present were all set theorists, so of course counting starts from 0 since sets start from \emptyset
21:39:25 <lexande> umm, the smallest set still has zero elements
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22:30:37 <Taneb> Finally had a game of Diana: Warrior Princess
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23:03:55 <Taneb> Although one of the players seems to really want to bind a book in human flesh
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23:15:11 <Sgeo> You should totally do a Qt domain for PSOX
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