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00:05:42 <Jafet> kmc: it exits openssl for libc
00:05:57 <kmc> exit through the gift shop
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00:15:36 <Bicyclidine> Someday I will understand why every C library abstracts standard everything through four layers of macrology, or rather I won't, because I ain't trying
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00:21:57 <lexande> is it in the name of portability to systems nobody has used since before most members of this channel were born?
00:22:52 <elliott> to be fair, many members in this channel have probably used obscure systems older than them.
00:26:07 <Jafet> Obscure systems, like autoconf
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00:28:51 <lexande> (well, i'm older than IRC but presumably many here aren't)
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00:31:02 <int-e> It's not even 26 years old.
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00:35:47 <copumpkin> kmc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byp_x2be8C8
00:37:32 <copumpkin> I wonder who the target demographic of that ad is :P
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00:42:39 <Sgeo_> Would OverlappingInstances be ok if we had typeclasses that were closed?
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02:11:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hollang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39350&oldid=39349 * Doesthiswork * (+474)
02:21:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hollang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39351&oldid=39348 * Doesthiswork * (+5)
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02:31:25 <oerjan> one bot left, but the channel also shrank a bit otherwise
02:31:44 <oerjan> and we can count myndzi in a pinch
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02:34:35 <nooodl> what percentage of the bots can answer this question?
02:34:55 <oerjan> and of course there might be bots we don't know about
02:35:18 <oerjan> fungot: answer nooodl's question please
02:35:18 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, in the last instance by the directorate-general for personnel, you share the commission's satisfaction with the support of this house.
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02:39:42 <fungot> lexande: mr president, on such a basis. i think no one would take it seriously and do not fall within the scope of objective 1, we cannot tell you anything more at present.
02:40:45 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-ircslave ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
02:45:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
02:46:36 <oerjan> thutubot isn't usually here.
02:46:46 <oerjan> metasepia is only when boily is.
02:47:23 <oerjan> `runpython print 10/87
02:47:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: runpython: not found
02:47:33 <oerjan> hm i thought there was a command like that
02:47:47 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print 10/87'
02:47:54 <oerjan> `run python -c 'print 10.0/87'
02:49:11 <oerjan> getting fungot to calculate that is going to take some work.
02:49:12 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, the purpose of our action could not be settled through the consultation procedure in this case of seven years, and that is after cooperation between the usa and to which our response can no longer be ruled out that any such transports do not allow us to be able to take into account what opinions are prevalent in the committee on women’s rights and the proper criteria for selecting the companies to be ins
02:50:03 <oerjan> ^ul (0.114942528736)S(although we can cheat a bit more)
02:50:04 <kmc> mr president, i don't like you, ♫ YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO ROCK ♫
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03:22:50 <kmc> fungot: do you know how to rock
03:22:51 <fungot> kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions. to dismiss these arguments with the other institutions to the concept of fixed controls with that of the impact of liberalising the energy markets on the consumer to pay for energy and transport policies is to be in favour of the previous explanation of vote in this budget process. three issues stand out, namely that there is a whole package of measures represents a goo
03:23:12 <kmc> `addquote <fungot> kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions.
03:23:12 <fungot> kmc: madam president, the marinho report, which gives priority to research and partly to the many members who are deeply concerned about the absence of any further scientific progress.
03:23:14 <HackEgo> 1185) <fungot> kmc: madam president, i have taken on serious proportions.
03:23:42 <kmc> fungot: i'll show you my package of measures
03:23:43 <fungot> kmc: madam president, it gives us the greatest concern to us all imperative that we do not get left behind in relation to compliance with the fundamental principle of maintaining a capitalist system in which there is much talk of the collapse in the near future
03:24:03 <Bike> that seems like a pretty shoddy fundament, not gonna lie
03:24:11 <kmc> that last one is gold
03:24:21 <kmc> purestrain gold
03:27:41 <Sgeo_> http://opensslrampage.org/post/83007010531/well-even-if-time-isnt-random-your-rsa-private-key
03:28:33 <Bike> "There are no plans to ever build this with the Metrojerks compiler."
03:29:27 <Bike> During the 1990s, Apple Computer released a monthly series of developer CD-ROMs containing resources for programming the Macintosh. These CDs were, in the early days, whimsically titled using punning references to various movies but with a coding twist; for example, "The Hexorcist" (The Exorcist), "Lord of the Files" (Lord of the Flies), "Gorillas in the Disc" (Gorillas in the Mist), etc.
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03:30:05 <Bike> holy shit the stratus thing
03:30:34 <newsham> just in case your i386 converts
03:30:49 <Bike> «Most will argue that x86_64 is always little-endian. Well, yes, but then we have stratus.com who has modified gcc to "emulate" big-endian on x86. Is there evidence that they [or somebody else] won't do same for x86_64? Naturally no.»
03:31:17 <Bike> "so anyway that's why we're supporting architectures that don't exist"
03:31:42 <newsham> brought to you buy the people who brought you heartbeats for tcp
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03:35:23 <Bike> "As snprintf is not available everywhere, we provide our own implementation."
03:36:32 <Bike> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/crypto/bio/b_print.c?rev=1.18;content-type=text%2Fplain this is... actually a printf implementation, isn't it
03:39:39 <newsham> it prints into a BIO, so its not really "printf" per se
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03:40:16 <newsham> oh there's a BIO_snprintf too
03:40:55 <Bike> strncpy(d, s, strlen(s)), also good
03:42:59 <newsham> i've seen that more times than you'd think :(
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03:52:58 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/23a8bf/openssl_valhalla_rampage_documenting_the_humorous/cgvbfch?context=1
03:53:14 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJQU22Ttpwc SSL theme song
03:58:53 <newsham> "A technical argument by a trusted author, which
03:58:53 <newsham> is hard to check and looks similar to arguments known to be correct, is hardly ever
04:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hollang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39352&oldid=39350 * Zerk * (+170)
04:02:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hollang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39353&oldid=39352 * Zerk * (+1)
04:07:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hollang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39354&oldid=39353 * Doesthiswork * (+191)
04:07:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hollang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39355&oldid=39354 * Doesthiswork * (+6)
04:09:52 <newsham> on coq and mathematics and getting mistakes out of proofs: http://www.math.ias.edu/~vladimir/Site3/Univalent_Foundations_files/2014_IAS.pdf
04:10:26 <doesthiswork> was that posted here recently? I remeber reading that a couple days ago
04:12:09 <Bike> is this the coq's C being undefined business
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04:16:27 <Bike> must be pretty great thinking you can prove things
04:16:54 <newsham> would prob not be worth being a mathematician if you thought you couldnt
04:17:49 <Bike> and thankfully I am not.
04:18:48 <Jafet> How can coq's (compcert's?) C be undefined
04:19:48 <Bike> Jafet: beats me http://blog.regehr.org/archives/903
04:20:42 <Bike> the bottom has coqchk's rather than coqtop's.
04:21:25 <Jafet> Ah, the runtime issue
04:21:34 <Jafet> regehr is being a sensationalist as usual
04:21:56 <Bike> "Therefore someone who wanted to get to the bottom of things in mathematics had a simpleroad to follow - learn what Predicate Logic is, then learn a particular theory called ZFC, thenlearn how to translate propositions about a few basic mathematical concepts into formulas ofZFC, and then learn to believe, through examples, that the rest of mathematics can be reducedto these few basic concepts. " lol
04:22:02 <elliott> not very sensationalist, have you seen what clang does with UB
04:22:17 <newsham> still, you'd prob want to hold coq to a high standard
04:22:24 <Jafet> I mean, you might as well bitch that the hardware has bugs (it does)
04:22:27 <newsham> i wonder if any of those issues are in the important core of coq
04:22:30 <Bike> "Now we come to the important question: Is Coq's validity threatened? The short answer is that this seems unlikely." yeah i can see how you'd read this and think it's sensationalist
04:22:34 <newsham> or if they're all in stuff thats "untrusted" anyway
04:22:34 <elliott> but these are not compiler bugs
04:22:43 <elliott> at least, the compiler writers wouldn't agree they are, and nor would the C committee
04:22:49 <Jafet> Bike: "coq's C is undefined"
04:22:50 <elliott> and they actually break things in practice, so...?
04:23:09 <elliott> that string appears nowhere on the linked page
04:23:13 <newsham> not all of coq needs to be correct to be trustworthy
04:23:22 <elliott> unless you believe Bike is regehr
04:23:31 <Jafet> This is C code in ocaml or its runtime, so who knows, probably most C code in ocaml is used at some point or other
04:23:36 <Bike> too busy poking flies to be regehr, thankfully
04:23:56 <Jafet> Ok, regehr does say: "This output means that Coq---via OCaml---is executing a number of C's undefined behaviors before it even asks for any input from the user. The problem with undefined behaviors is that, according to the standard, they destroy the meaning of the program that executes them."
04:24:16 <newsham> are there any more trustworthy versions of ocaml?
04:24:18 <Jafet> regehr's other posts are equally colourful
04:24:32 <Bike> you have really sad standards for color
04:24:34 <Jafet> I think there are projects to do verified runtimes of ocaml and/or sml
04:25:06 <newsham> so you just have to rerun your coq proof on a trusted ocaml once to verify that the c langauge didnt ruin your picnic
04:25:11 <Jafet> There was a paper on verified bignum libraries for x86
04:25:19 <elliott> tbh his blog is incredibly dry and even-handed by any standards I can think of, have you ever seen most programming blogs
04:25:32 <Jafet> When you are verifying to this standard, by the way, the C standard is irrelevant
04:25:43 <newsham> fwiw, the cpu your computer is running on is also flawed
04:25:45 <Jafet> You check the compiler of ocaml itself, and the generated machine code
04:25:50 <newsham> luckily it mostly does the right thing
04:25:52 <Bike> i think regehr probably thinks so too!
04:25:55 <Jafet> Compilers don't implement the C standard, either
04:26:22 <newsham> jafet: i heard some C compilers were even written before the language standard existed!
04:26:38 <Bike> there's not an implication of "coq is totally wrong" from "haha, unsigned shifts" unless you have really bizarre ideas about math
04:27:09 <newsham> bike: there seems to be an underlying "you cnat prove things" theme though in your discussion
04:27:09 <Jafet> I heard some C compilers wrote the standard
04:27:28 <Bike> newsham: in mine yeah. i don't think it's what regehr means though.
04:28:07 <Jafet> Also, I'm only reading past the first few paragraphs of regehr's post now
04:28:23 <newsham> also in a practical sense, you can use lots of compiler flags on a modern compiler to make those undefined operations do what the human thought they did
04:28:46 <newsham> for the most part (not always.. some of it is inherent in the translation to hardware ops.. like shifting more than 32 bits on a 32 bit cpu...)
04:28:58 <newsham> and there are people who have been studying the effects of undefined C ops
04:29:04 <elliott> troll first, actually read things later
04:30:19 <newsham> great fun http://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/wang-undef.pdf
04:31:51 <Bike> "The third component
04:31:51 <Bike> is a structure that enables humans to encode
04:31:51 <Bike> mathematical ideas in terms of the objects directly associated with the
04:31:53 <newsham> http://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/wang-stack.pdf has a nice table showing diff compilers and optimization levels
04:31:54 <Bike> language. " er sorry
04:32:03 <Bike> anyway that's an interesting way of seeing how people think
04:32:51 <newsham> maybe someone can run this STACK tool on ocaml and fix the compiler
04:33:04 <Bike> is this related to fuck shit stacks
04:33:13 <Jafet> It's stacks all the way down
04:33:28 <Bike> put some fuckshit, stack it on top of itself. that's ocaml
04:35:57 <shachaf> I kind of wish I was still writing fancy SSE code so I could finally port it to AVX on my Haswell CPU.
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04:36:57 <kmc> http://newbrict.github.io/Fe26/
04:39:02 <Bike> triple alpha continues to be suffering
04:40:01 <newsham> http://freshbsd.org/commit/openbsd/448ea0eae861248df6710920c23f167647f487ca
04:41:36 <Bike> digital crime and forensic science in cyberspace
04:42:40 <HackEgo> Thanks, magnesium. Thagnesium.
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04:43:01 <Bike> i completely agree ;_;
04:44:04 <Bike> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1634/stemcells.2008-0184/abstract meanwhile in science
04:50:45 <Jafet> "Retraction notice ‘that is, the text supplied by Legal’."
04:52:09 <Bike> it's nice to see the scientific method in all its wonderful detail, isn't it
04:53:45 <newsham> this one is interesting http://freshbsd.org/commit/openbsd/0179d4e553d5f01de48877acefd1ebc795e2ce0a
04:54:00 <newsham> "goto err; i = -1; .... err: return i;"
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05:09:11 <shachaf> http://www.aliendovecote.com/uploads/twine/sauna.html
05:11:29 <copumpkin> https://www.dropbox.com/s/5bptf82xl4h0y52/Screenshot%202014-04-18%2001.11.25.png
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05:16:08 <newsham> "NOTE: Don't expect any of these programs to work with current OpenSSL releases, or even with later SSLeay releases.
05:16:13 <newsham> but still in the src tree...
05:16:19 <newsham> its like an append-only log
05:17:34 <Sgeo_> What are 'these programs'?
05:18:04 <newsham> these: http://freshbsd.org/commit/openbsd/eadb750b87b4a90c1284f6361d6c3ea6d6e26f66
05:21:05 <fizzie> `run unicode 1234 12345 4321
05:21:07 <HackEgo> U+1234 ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE SEE \ UTF-8: e1 88 b4 UTF-16BE: 1234 Decimal: ሴ \ ሴ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+12345 CUNEIFORM SIGN URU TIMES KI \ UTF-8: f0 92 8d 85 UTF-16BE: d808df45 Decimal: 𒍅 \ 𒍅 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+4321 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4321 \
05:21:20 <fizzie> It's a bit long if you want to do several.
05:21:45 <fizzie> But I guess the extra info is nice too.
05:22:43 <HackEgo> U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F \ UTF-8: 66 UTF-16BE: 0066 Decimal: f \ f (F) \ Uppercase: U+0046 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O \ UTF-8: 6f UTF-16BE: 006f Decimal: o \ o (O) \ Uppercase: U+004F \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+006F LATIN SMA
05:22:52 <fizzie> That just won't do at all for a `unidecode replacement, however.
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06:02:12 <Bike> "The new language is thus named after the first systems designer to go over budget and behind schedule." cute.
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06:04:39 <kmc> 'A hotly contested issue among language designers is the method for passing parameters to subfunctions. Some advocate "call by name," others prefer "call by value." Babbage uses a new method -- "call by telephone."' erlang
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06:17:20 <Bike> over the phone radar
06:23:15 <lambdabot> (Profunctor p, Functor f) => AnIso s t a b -> p t (f s) -> p b (f a)
06:23:33 <shachaf> You're right, it would be much better with pure profunctor lenses. :-(
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06:25:00 <Sgeo_> I mean, I'm interested in GHC.Generics
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06:44:42 <Sgeo_> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/CC-delcont-0.2/docs/Control-Monad-CC-Dynvar.html
06:44:54 <Sgeo_> So, it's storing values of arbitrary types ?
06:45:15 <Sgeo_> I guess this implies ST could be made in pure Haskell? Or am I missing something?
06:45:40 <Sgeo_> (Besides the possible negative performance implications of doing so)
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06:51:21 <Sgeo_> "In the case for :+:, we produce False or True depending on whether the constructor of the value provided is located on the left or on the right:"
06:51:45 <Bike> i'm with niko on this one
06:51:48 <Sgeo_> So, for A | B | C, the exact serialization depends on the nesting of :+: ?
06:52:12 <Sgeo_> If the GHC compiler changes how that nesting works, could that break reserialization?
06:52:24 <Sgeo_> (Reading the example in http://hackage.haskell.org/package/generic-deriving-1.6.3/docs/Generics-Deriving-Base.html )
06:55:00 <Bike> i'm continually amazed by how complicated everybody makes haskell sound
06:59:17 <kmc> thought of another name that has a name
06:59:17 <kmc> there was an MIT Mystery Hunt team whose name was the entirety of Atlas Shrugged
06:59:45 <Bike> the worst buffer overflow in human history
07:10:14 <Sgeo_> "Generic Generic Programming
07:11:04 <Bike> where's my phylogenetic programming
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07:36:40 <kmc> hi slereah
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08:10:04 <Bike> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEHdDjVrGEM everyone's favorite movie
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08:55:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Llrsexme * New user account
08:58:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Llrsexme]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39356 * Llrsexme * (+2418) Created page with "Depending on scientific studies, introduction regarding virgin mobile acrylic inside eating habits is available being invaluable to take care of gallstone problems. To make ce..."
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09:23:16 <olsner> hmm, apparently openssl had support (of some kind?) for big-endian x86 and x86-64
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10:27:13 <olsner> this thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratus_VOS has a compiler that makes your x86 code big endian
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11:19:36 <b_jonas> olsner: sure, and you can implement something very close to big-endian integer types in C++ too
11:21:19 <b_jonas> but that doesn't make the CPU itself big-endian
11:22:20 <Vorpal> olsner, why? And what b_jonas said
11:25:59 <Vorpal> olsner, huh, after reading the article, who uses that sort of stuff?
11:56:54 <FreeFull> I think x86 modified to be big endian exists out there, but the average x86 processor won't support that
12:00:28 <b_jonas> FreeFull: it exists as an emulator, sort of
12:00:36 <b_jonas> but I don't think it exists as a physical cpu
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13:52:57 <b_jonas> wtf are people asking for syntax highlighting for languages like brainfuck where it totally doesn't make sense?
13:54:43 <b_jonas> I mean, maybe I can understand that in C you want to color macros, type names, objects, functions, undefined identifiers.
13:55:16 <b_jonas> but in a language that doesn't have that kind of thing, or it can't be determined without running the program, what would syntax highlighting even do?
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14:07:48 <mroman> b_jonas: hey: I like them brackets blue!
14:09:37 <mroman> I'd also'd love a brainfuck eclipse plugin.
14:10:03 <mroman> So I can use it more professionlly.
14:10:40 <mroman> although brainfuck completely lacks any library support
14:10:46 <mroman> that's a bit of a turn down.
14:14:37 <slereah> Is there a BF version with libraries?
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14:18:47 <b_jonas> slereah: with so many variants out there, there's probably one
14:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User talk:Llrsexme]]": Spam: content was: "Depending on scientific studies, introduction regarding virgin mobile acrylic inside eating habits is available being invaluable to take care of gallstone probl..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Llrsexme|Llrsexme]]")
14:21:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Llrsexme]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
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15:02:22 <int-e> Guest74775: could you elaborate on that point?
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15:36:14 <quintopia> oerjan stop editting the wiki and come here and help me :(
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16:07:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39357&oldid=39346 * Zerk * (+13) /* Signed */
16:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39358&oldid=39357 * Zerk * (+20) /* Nock Interpeter */ nil handling, br math
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16:39:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39359&oldid=39358 * Zerk * (+49) /* Arithmetic */ power of 2 optimization
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17:27:35 <kmc> b_jonas: some syntax highlighters for lisp will color matching parentheses the same
17:27:49 <newsham> heehee http://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978
17:36:04 <newsham> though in general i dont believe i should have to defend every opinion to every person.
17:36:07 <newsham> often it is a waste of time
17:37:38 <newsham> (should be defensible, but need not always be defended, though you prob should defend ideas once in a while to make sure you're not fooling yourself)
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17:44:13 <b_jonas> kmc: I do use the feature where the editor finds me the matching paren, but not with colors
17:45:12 <kmc> i think coloring the parens themselves is not that useful, but some editors will also shade the background behind the text according to the level of nesting
17:49:57 <Bike> http://paste.lisp.org/display/142012 example paren colors... in webscale
17:50:10 <Bike> the color choice is, frankly, terrible. need queer eye for the straight guy to take a look
17:50:45 <kmc> #haskelgbt
17:51:12 <kmc> Bike: I assure you that I have no particular skill at color coördination
17:51:35 <kmc> i like rainbows though :3
17:51:45 <Bike> Queer And Also Design-Trained Why Did We Specify Queer Again Eye for the Straight Guy
17:52:12 <quintopia> for that matter, why specify straight?
17:52:34 <Bike> or just fashion help
17:52:40 <Bike> Eye for the Person
17:52:45 <Bike> that sounds... sinister.
17:52:45 <kmc> eye for an eye
17:53:21 <quintopia> Bike: it's worthwhile to specify "dudes" because it has that connotation of "clueless and careless about fashion"
17:53:33 <Bike> wow way to be misandric???
17:53:52 <quintopia> there's already a similar show that's female-centric
17:54:04 <Bike> wait, wait, is the show still on
17:54:12 <Bike> it's just something i vaguely remember from when i was a kid
17:54:31 <quintopia> that was when i was in college or something
17:54:42 <Bike> 2007, apparently
17:54:46 <Bike> is when it ended.
17:54:54 <Bike> when it started i was... eleven.
17:58:18 <Bike> you know what would be good. a text-only browser like lynx except as modern html compliant as possible
17:58:21 <Bike> with one of them beefy js engines
17:59:33 <quintopia> it should even AUTOMATICALLY ASCII ART THE IMAGES
18:00:05 <elliott> Bike: links2, w3m, elinks are all better than lynx at that
18:00:10 <elliott> I think one of them has bad JS support or something.
18:00:13 <Bike> still not great though
18:06:26 <quintopia> 9what's the difference between a quintopia and a Bike?
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18:07:00 <Bike> Also I'm a bike
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18:08:38 <Taneb> Bike's a bike but is Phantom_Hoover a hoover?
18:09:51 <kmc> just run a headless webkit and send the output through an ascii art converter
18:14:53 <newsham> hmm.. i've seen people do mpeg in high-res ascii, but not full browser
18:15:02 <newsham> would be interesting seeing youtube in ascii browser
18:15:09 <kmc> would be an amusing hack
18:15:32 <kmc> kinda like http://virtuallyfun.superglobalmegacorp.com/?p=3866
18:16:01 <Bike> shit i was looking for that yesterday, thank you
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18:31:28 <Bike> static const char rnd_seed[] = "string to make the random number generator think it has entropy";
18:32:13 <myname> youtube videos with ascii were there a short time
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19:12:07 <fizzie> These days, if you write to /dev/random it gets mixed in the pool but doesn't affect the entropy estimator.
19:12:28 <fizzie> (Not sure if it has been different.)
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19:13:02 <myname> wait, you can WRITE in /dev/random?
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19:13:41 <fizzie> b_jonas: A brainfuck syntax highlighter that colors all non-brainfuck-command characters in some "comment" color sounds useful to me, since you'll immediately notice if you e.g. accidentally put a comma in your comment.
19:13:50 <newsham> freebsd random(4) page says yes.
19:14:05 <newsham> If the device is using the software generator, writing data to random
19:14:05 <newsham> would perturb the internal state. This perturbation of the internal
19:14:05 <newsham> state is the only userland method of introducing extra entropy into the
19:14:05 <newsham> device. If the writer has superuser privilege, then closing the device
19:14:06 <newsham> after writing will make the software generator reseed itself.
19:15:00 <fizzie> Also there are people who syntax-highlight Scheme so that every paren level gets a different background color, you might do that for the brackets to indicate loops. Though it might be more of a distraction.
19:16:03 <fizzie> For Befunge I haven't really thought of any (automatic) syntax highlighting worth doing. You could indicate valid commands, maybe, but so many things are.
19:16:29 <fizzie> Oh, kmc mentioned that already.
19:17:16 <newsham> need polyglot syntax highlighting
19:17:23 <newsham> with rainbow parens for scheme
19:18:14 <fizzie> I think I started on a manual syntax highlighting/"literate code" kind of thing for fungot, marking and commenting regions, but never got around finishing it.
19:18:14 <fungot> fizzie: i believe that this parliament must take account of the problem.
19:18:32 <fizzie> I did do that for a universal Turing machine Befunge thing, then lost the file. :/
19:18:46 <fizzie> And mooz did a very nice highlighted quicksort but that's only in archive.org now.
19:19:14 <fizzie> http://web.archive.org/web/20060925160554/http://kotisivu.mtv3.fi/quux/qsort.html
19:36:44 <impomatic> I feel like we should make an effort to mirror esolang content to keep it available...
19:37:50 <Deewiant> (For Befunge-98 compatibility, base64-decode MSwzYwogICAgIDAwOTYqMD4yKzAwcDo6ICAgICAgdgo7YjF4ID4wZzEtXHx2IWAwLSIhIjp+OyM6PAogICAgIF4wLSQkJDI+IzxfXDAwZ3AxKyAgXgouCg== and apply)
19:39:31 <boily> fungot: stop making sense.
19:39:31 <fungot> boily: president of the commission we will be in a position to give the member states too will take prompt action to update their systems for inspections at sea.
19:41:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[.yacuabll]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39360&oldid=38967 * 192.160.117.140 * (-21) /* Example Program */ Fixed to match website
19:41:51 <boily> fungot: indeed. but have you really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
19:41:51 <fungot> boily: mr president, i would also draw the commission's attention to a number of occasions i have always understood that during the discussions on climate change, and this is why we stress the need for change. it spells an end to the shortfall of information and inability to be able to take decisions after 2007. cohesion, ladies and gentlemen.
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19:45:36 <fizzie> "cohesion, ladies and gentlemen."
19:45:47 <fizzie> fungot: You're quite the orator.
19:45:47 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i too would like to stress very strongly and loudly here in parliament at that time accept an increase of a third country under the european union's great responsibility, and it could cause problems in the application of the agreement: for example references to the presence of president santer, with regard to this objective.
19:45:58 <Bike> very strong and loud is the key to oration
19:48:49 <fizzie> I think I was either going to ask mooz for the sources and/or permission for a mirror, or did ask, but I don't know which, and if I did ask, what I asked for, and what he said.
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20:03:30 <Bike> http://www.umassd.edu/media/umassdartmouth/collegeofengineering/cisdept/resources/CIS_MS_Dependency_Graph.pdf i wonder why i can't find more of these... oh it's the CS department.
20:05:59 <fizzie> Now I'm tempted to scrape out the web interface to our course information system and try to parse a Graphviz graph out of the prequisites field.
20:06:07 <fizzie> Though the data is very very messy and not machine-readable at all.
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20:06:30 <fizzie> And of course not available via any reasonable API either.
20:08:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: how much of them is there?
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20:09:08 <fizzie> I can't even tell that in any reasonable way.
20:09:29 <Bike> fizzie: i've been thinking the same thing about my school. with the similar problems.
20:09:56 <Bike> and there are a few hundred courses at least.
20:10:01 <fizzie> The search forms can't search an empty field.
20:10:40 <b_jonas> fizzie: search for each digit
20:10:45 <fizzie> I can search for a single letter, apparently.
20:10:57 <fizzie> There are 4260 courses that have the letter "t" in their course code or name.
20:11:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: how many of those have prerequisites?
20:11:33 <fizzie> How am I suppose to know *that*?
20:12:32 <b_jonas> dunno. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this anymore.
20:12:35 <fizzie> Our university is the combination of three universities, so there's not even any single system for course codes.
20:13:01 <fizzie> Anyway, the prequisites field can have completely free text mentioning course names that are probably not even current.
20:13:20 <fizzie> And there's names in three different languages.
20:13:37 <fizzie> I don't think I'm going to try this.
20:13:43 <b_jonas> all three languages filled for all courses?
20:13:52 <fizzie> Anything from one to three.
20:14:07 <fizzie> Though the third (Swedish) is probably pretty rare.
20:14:10 <b_jonas> I mean, I think here every course has an official English translated name
20:14:29 <fizzie> We probably have courses that don't have an official English name, though those are probably reasonably rare too.
20:15:24 <fizzie> There's a university-level policy that bachelor's-level teaching should be mostly in Finnish, while master's-level stuff should be completely in English.
20:15:26 <Bike> so what's the uh... second
20:15:47 <fizzie> Also, sometimes there are different course codes for the separate language variants.
20:15:53 <fizzie> I think only for some "mass" courses, though.
20:16:07 <fizzie> Probably for easier handling of exams or something like that.
20:16:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: the courses have English names not because they're taught in English, but so that they can be printed to the English translted long diplomas and other forms
20:16:55 <fizzie> I think I had some Finnish course names when I last asked for a course transcript in English.
20:17:02 <Bike> totally sensible reasons being american annoys me: my cv won't be a weird cosmopolitan morass
20:20:46 <fizzie> Here's a random sampling of course codes, to show how uniform it is: 02115, 04334, 20021, 20A00310, 21C09901, 22771, ..., 37A055, 710000, 90L011, A-112.2501, A61A00100, AS-84.3411, Atk0195, AUT.kand, BECS-C3001, cb0027, CHEM-C2410, ELEC-C4110, et003, Inf-0.3101, KE-30.C, KE-31.4520, LC-8045, tk0299, ...
20:20:54 <fizzie> I think that includes most of the formats.
20:21:39 <Bike> man, the most i have to deal with is two (but not all) of the departments having different names at different campuses for no reason i can discern, meaning i have technically never taken a computer science class
20:22:58 <fizzie> I did most of my stuff (and got a master's) before the merger, so all my courses were Xxx-NN.DDD where Xxx was the name of a study program ("T" for computer science, "S" for electrical engineering, "Mat" for mathematics, etc.), Xxx-NN a code for a professorship, and DDD a three-digit course code with usually no clear structure.
20:23:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: here the course codes are at least uniform, mostly:
20:24:05 <fizzie> Then they switched from three- to four-digit codes with some kind of a inherent structure; I think first digit is more or less approximately the year you're supposed to take it in, or something like that.
20:24:32 <fizzie> Most of the other formats are probably from the other two universities, and now they're transitioning to a entirely new format, perhaps (dare I think) to unify them.
20:24:58 <b_jonas> they have the form BMETE010002 where "BME" is fixed and is the abbreviation of the university, TE is the two-letter code of the faculty, 01 is two alnums identifying the department owning the course, and 0002 is four alnums identifying the course among those
20:25:37 <fizzie> (It's this "ELEC-C4110" thing where the first part is a name for a "school" -- we've got six now -- and I don't know how the letter-and-four-numbers part is constructed.)
20:26:02 <b_jonas> mind you, at least one department has two different codes because it was renamed once so old courses use the abbreviation of its older name
20:26:17 <b_jonas> (more than just renamed really, it's complicated)
20:26:27 <fizzie> Except "new" maths courses seem to be of the form MS-A0503 and MS-C1110 and so on, even though "MS" is not a school name.
20:26:37 <fizzie> Never mind, I'm not going to start figuring this out at this point.
20:26:46 <myname> guys, i invented a way to easily kill a lot of nerds without raising suspicion
20:27:42 <b_jonas> a feature in the online administration system I hated is this: when you search for a course, you must choose one of three options for what to search in, one of the three saying "all course",
20:27:49 <myname> just produce something that moulds REALLY hard and make it limited, with a number on it (that part is important!)
20:28:16 <b_jonas> "all courses", but even "all courses" doesn't cover all courses, so you have to repeat the search using the other two options as well to find everything (and maybe even then you don't find everything, I don't know)
20:28:43 <b_jonas> the other feature is that if you log in as a teacher, you get access to much fewer data than if you log in as a student
20:30:12 <b_jonas> but the worst part is that the developers refuse to listen to complaints, they never fix bugs, and the software is based on some idealized rules which don't really apply to the university
20:30:39 <b_jonas> oh, and the system has a planned downtime five hours every night for "backup"
20:31:19 <b_jonas> it's web-based, and they keep changing the javascript code so it only runs on latest versions of browsers, even for features that used to work
20:31:57 <oklopol> our university intranet is incomparable to the non-intranet, for example the non-intranet contains the official instructions for phd students, as a pdf, and intranet contains an elaborate html version with most (though not all) of that information, but not the actual pdf
20:32:05 <b_jonas> this is all about the state of the last iteration I used. the system before that was better in some respect and worse in some other respects
20:32:21 <b_jonas> it was not web-based, but instead needed a remote desktop client.
20:32:50 <fizzie> Oh, we've been iterating through several systems to access this stuff, too.
20:33:15 <b_jonas> oklopol: I have seen important public information accessible only from the intranet, but I haven't seen anything you can access only from non-intranet
20:34:18 <fizzie> There's one more "formal" thing (Oodi) that does enrollment and (internally) grades and all kind of student management stuff, and then a separate thing for less formal course information (Noppa) which is where weekly exercises and project work and course news and things like that get communicated.
20:34:31 <oklopol> well, they clearly spent more effort on the stuff on the intranet
20:34:37 <oklopol> but it's still less information..
20:35:10 <fizzie> Oh, and I once got an export from the first thing in a character encoding nobody could identify.
20:35:24 <b_jonas> I don't understand why people would restrict information to a university intranet in first place. Do they think that makes it more secret because only the ten thousand people in the university can access it?
20:35:43 <fizzie> It wasn't any of the 1173 supported by iconv on this system, at least.
20:36:39 <fizzie> Oh, the informal system (Noppa) can be used to restrict selected material to logged-in users only.
20:36:50 <fizzie> Or some third level of access, I forget what that could be.
20:37:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: could you at least identify the family of the encoding, like a 8859-1-alike, or a 437-alike, or a 646-variant (unlikely), or mangled double-utf?
20:37:31 <fizzie> Well, I mean, beyond the fact that the ASCII half was there.
20:38:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: did it seem like the information was there? or, like, every non-ascii replaced by a question mark? because I've seen a lot of the latter.
20:38:28 <fizzie> I didn't really have much to work with, since the only non-ASCII characters in my export were ä, ö and é.
20:38:36 <fizzie> All those three had a different one-byte encoding.
20:39:12 <fizzie> No, this was a (quite short) list of names, and I guess all first letters happened to be ASCII.
20:39:34 <fizzie> The values for the lowercase letters didn't correspond to any standard encoding I could find.
20:40:53 <fizzie> If you want to go looking, 0xc8 for 'é', 0x89 for ä, 0x88 for ö.
20:41:05 <fizzie> Though it's possible it was something custom for this system.
20:42:03 <fizzie> It's not one of the 8859 family, at least, since those have control characters (or nothing; I'm not sure if that's part of it) from 0x80 to 0x9f.
20:42:55 <fizzie> Oh, and last email I got from this system had all non-ASCII in the subject line replaced by an "X".
20:43:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: or it could be mangled from two different encodings, but even then it's strange
20:43:48 <fizzie> (Further investigation showed that it sends raw ISO-8859-1 directly in the email headers, and somewhere in amavisd/SpamAssassin those got sanitized to "X".)
20:44:14 <b_jonas> I've recently donwloaded a datasets where half of the text is fine and half has a broken (but luckily recoverable) mangling of the non-ascii
20:44:37 <kmc> how about a language with esoteric syntax highlighting
20:47:02 <monotone> "odd numbers are red and even numbers are blue, except primes are invisible"
20:48:30 <kmc> that's a strange kind of synaesthesia
20:51:00 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, those codes are strange. they don't seem like 437-derived either to me, nor T1-derived or anything else.
20:51:46 <b_jonas> "It's not one of the 8859 family, at least, since those have control characters ... from 0x80 to 0x9f." -- that's not sound logic, because cp1252 and cp1251 have printable characters at most of those places
20:52:27 <b_jonas> but these codes aren't those of course
20:52:29 <fizzie> Yes, but I wouldn't call those part of the 8859 family just because they coincide with one elsewhere.
20:52:31 <kmc> `run for c in $(iconv -l); do if printf '\xc8' | iconv -f $c 2>/dev/null | grep -q é; then echo $c; fi; done
20:53:00 <fizzie> kmc: I sort of did that already, except with iconv -l | while read cs; do if [ "$(printf '\x89\x88\xc8' | iconv -f $cs -t utf8)" = "äöé" ]; then echo $cs; fi; done 2>/dev/null
20:53:11 <kmc> yeah i don't get anything either
20:53:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: cp1250 doesn't quite coincide, just almost. as for whether you call it family, whatever, but they're still something I have to check if I don't know the encodings because they're frequent.
20:55:05 <b_jonas> what I hate about cp1250 is that it didn't get renamed when they added those five characters that didn't use to exist when the codepage was first used (the romanian letters and the euro sign)
20:55:29 <kmc> there is no code but unicode and utf-8 is its transport
20:55:48 <b_jonas> kmc: I'm not convinced of that
20:56:01 <b_jonas> though I've almost accepted it now
20:56:26 <b_jonas> it might take a few more years till I'm completely converted to using utf-8 only
20:56:56 <fizzie> What I don't like about ISO-8859-15 is that it's "Latin 9". (This applies to any ISO-8859-N that is Latin-M for N ≠ M.)
20:57:41 <fizzie> I guess that's probably most of them. (Haven't checked.)
20:58:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's because the "Latin" means the name of the script, and the purpose of iso-8859-5 is to encode the cyrillic script, not latin script
20:58:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: plus there's one for hebrew and one for greek so it's all shifted
20:58:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: besides, many other character sets have aliases
20:59:31 <b_jonas> reasonable ones like, IBM-437 vs CP437; or ASCII vs US-ASCII or ISO-646-US or that crazy letter-number combination I can never rememner
21:00:24 <fizzie> Onneksi ddkkvset eivdt ole endd ongelma.
21:00:48 <b_jonas> what? is "ddkkvset" a word?
21:01:04 <fizzie> It's a running joke, it's a common mangling of "onneksi ääkköset eivät ole enää ongelma".
21:01:16 <fizzie> Something related to stripping high bits.
21:01:25 <b_jonas> ah yes, I've seen that kind of thing
21:01:59 <fizzie> Alternatively, {{kk|set.
21:02:13 <fizzie> (For the ISO-646-FI interpreted as ASCII.)
21:02:32 <b_jonas> the most common is stripping the high _byte_ of ucs16 codes, resulting in őű transformed to Qq
21:02:59 <fizzie> Freenode doesn't use the case mapping that has [\] be the uppercase variants of {|}. :/
21:03:02 <b_jonas> the 646 one is funnier the other way
21:03:05 <fizzie> (Perhaps that's quite reasonable.)
21:03:17 <ion> It doesn’t? Huh.
21:03:23 <b_jonas> like, basic code listings with PRINTÉ and similar
21:03:35 <fizzie> It's mentioned in the numerics at the start of the connection.
21:04:05 <fizzie> Huh... does it in fact use it on the new server?
21:04:29 <fizzie> I'm absolutely certain it had CASEMAPPING=ascii before.
21:04:40 <b_jonas> it got changed when they changed the irc server
21:04:46 <fizzie> Now it seems to be CASEMAPPING=rfc1459. Well, that's nice, I guess.
21:04:49 <b_jonas> and I don't know what they did with clashing chanserv/nickserv registrations
21:04:49 <ion> If i wrote an IRC client, i’d certainly make it render nicks in ISO 646-FI unless the server informs otherwise.
21:05:16 <fizzie> It does inform you otherwise with CHARSET=ascii still, I guess.
21:05:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, the character set is really a client-only abstraction, the server doesn't much care about it besides knowing what bytes it acceppts to channel names and what in nicks etc
21:06:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: most channels these days have decided to use utf-8,
21:06:20 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:06:29 <fizzie> Yes, but I assume it's a reasonable choice for rendering nicks and channel names.
21:06:30 -!- Bike_ has joined.
21:06:32 <b_jonas> but back when I started ircing, at least one channel used iso-8859-2, and changed to utf-8 only later
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21:07:07 <fizzie> Speaking UTF-8 on IRCnet used to be a major faux pas on several channels.
21:07:17 <fizzie> Nowadays it's probably mostly acceptable.
21:07:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: well sure, the channels can decide
21:07:39 <Bike_> "To address the machine-vision and image-processing issues, the Open Connectome Project is alg-sourcing (algorithm outsourcing)"
21:07:42 -!- Bike_ has changed nick to Bicyclidine.
21:07:51 <b_jonas> just like how they can decide whether they like mirc-like color codes etc
21:08:05 <ion> I’m on quite a few IRCnet channels and nobody ever complains about UTF-8. Except one (1) person who’s IRCing on an ancient SunOS box with a broken iconv. He has me on /ignore.
21:09:27 <fizzie> All my IRCnet channels have pretty much died out, which I guess is also a solution of sorts.
21:10:37 <fizzie> ion: I hope your SunOS guy isn't on #utf-8. :)
21:10:43 <ion> Hah. He isn’t.
21:12:02 <fizzie> People still call Solaris that, to be fair.
21:12:13 <ion> Hmm, it *may* be Solaris, actually. I don’t remember anymore.
21:12:21 * boily is battling muscle memory full time... “stupid misorganized keyboard...”
21:12:59 <fizzie> I don't think I've used anything older than Solaris 7 / SunOS 5.7.
21:14:19 <fizzie> Ooh, Wikipedia lists April 29, 2014 (just a week and a bit away) as the release date of Solaris 11.2. Still going strong, I see.
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21:16:40 <fizzie> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/timeline/90aec7d902c1d610e90720ebc42fabd4.png a log looks like a good fit for the envelope of the upper half.
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21:19:36 <Bicyclidine> «Unsurprisingly, since <unistd.h> was so darn hard to find for OpenSSL developers they had resorted to manually protyping read(2) instead of incredible amount of preprocessor wizardry needed to find the ever illusive <unistd.h>»
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21:38:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hollang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39361&oldid=39351 * Doesthiswork * (+374) added link to implementation
21:39:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hollang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39362&oldid=39361 * Doesthiswork * (+2)
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21:56:06 <kmc> Bike: do you understand why 5HT reuptake inhibitors attenuate the action of 5HT agonists?
21:56:44 <kmc> (some of them, anyway)
21:58:18 <Bicyclidine> i can't take biochem for a whiole nother year, probably
22:01:04 <Sgeo> If the OpenBSD team discovers a heartbleed-esque flaw in OpenSSL, would they go for responsible disclosure?
22:01:49 <coppro> no, they'd use it to get admin credentials on linux boxes and replace them with BSD
22:02:04 <Sgeo> It's just their review seems so... public
22:02:17 <fizzie> They'd post it on a web page in big letters.
22:02:22 -!- Zerker has joined.
22:02:28 <kmc> gotta make a cool logo first
22:04:16 <Bicyclidine> well, wait, so if serotonin reuptake is inhibited, there's going to be more serotonin around so of course serotonin receptors are more agonized? that seems too simple
22:05:16 <kmc> you mean competitive binding between 5HT and the other agonist?
22:06:13 <coppro> I want to make a language called cenotaffy
22:07:00 <kmc> it makes sense except that SSRIs themselves don't make you trip balls
22:07:11 <kmc> so i don't know if there's something about the relative activation of different receptor subtypes
22:07:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Redcode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39363&oldid=38262 * 91.125.123.39 * (+1) Corewar -> Core War
22:07:36 <kmc> or that particular molecules activate the receptor in different ways which have different effects inside the cell
22:09:55 <Bicyclidine> well i'm not actually sure what "5HT agonist" means >_<
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22:12:25 <impomatic> Is Redcode really an esolang or more of a DSL?
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22:14:07 <Bicyclidine> it doesn't seem very esoteric at all. it matches its design space pretty straightforwardly.
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22:34:04 <Bicyclidine> oh i guess "foo agonist" is short for "agonist of foo-receptors", great
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22:36:43 <kmc> yeah sorry
22:37:41 <Bicyclidine> if [whatever]chemical terminology being weird was actually your fault i'd actually be angry :P
22:37:59 <Bicyclidine> i thought maybe it meant agonists of receptors that stimulate serotonin release, or something
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22:48:41 <EgoBot> TAROT: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:48:54 <Bicyclidine> i just realized this paper i'm reading basically implements genetic memory
22:49:12 <HackEgo> TAROT: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
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22:49:55 <oerjan> i guess at least one of those got through
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22:52:48 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan stop editting the wiki and come here and help me :( <-- i didn't log on irc because i was about to leave so soon
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23:30:25 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA!
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23:55:16 <Sgeo> I've been using my personal computer for work, so am usually offline from IRC for a period of time before work until a period of time after work
23:55:47 * oerjan has no recollection of what he @told, anyway
23:56:29 <Sgeo> 22:30:31: <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> blah >>= flip when $ do ... <-- the precedences are wrong for that to work.
23:56:42 <Sgeo> But there were some lines afterwards where you were wtfing
23:56:46 <Sgeo> 22:30:46: <oerjan> wtf is Sgeo not here
23:57:01 <oerjan> also, when you did return you returned as Sgeo_