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00:01:40 <Bicyclidine> doesn't that kind of hurt the point of @messages-loud?
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00:05:52 <Melvar> I was half-expecting that to be special-cased.
00:12:28 <oerjan> i suspect that's not supported without creating a new command with that name, which will ruin the typo correction by making a lot of them ambiguous...
00:17:19 <Melvar> I wonder, what is piratespeak like in other languages than English?
00:19:36 <oerjan> splitte mine bramseil, hva slags landkrabbespørsmål er det
00:21:14 <oerjan> (not very yarrry, for sure)
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00:23:31 <oerjan> the main norwegian pirate figure at this time is kaptein sabeltann, who speaks bokmål but with some old sea slang words.
00:30:38 <Sgeo> @tell Bicyclidine you now have messages
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00:38:21 <Melvar> A German pirate would originally of course have spoken Low German / Low Saxon, which would be quite incomprehensible to any speaker of Modern Standard German.
00:57:21 <Bike> http://www.the-apswiki.org/ this is some incredible web design
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00:58:30 <ion> I like http://www.the-apswiki.org/@api/deki/site/logo.png a lot
00:59:06 <Bike> lol i didn't even notice
01:01:39 <Sgeo> Sadly, /r/lolc does not seem to be the C equivalent of /r/lolphp
01:02:31 <Bike> frankly the ungoogleability of C is a major design flaw
01:03:37 <Sgeo> I wonder if some search engines special-case C and C++
01:05:43 <monotone> The results for "C" and "C++" by themselves are as you'd expect, for instance.
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01:06:54 <coppro> monotone: That's not a special case. Trailing + are significant in google
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01:12:11 <coppro> I think, however, that C/C++ may have been part of hte reason for this
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01:15:29 <kmc> i do want some kind of "wat"-style talk for C
01:15:48 <Sprocklem> coppro: C# seems to be special cased. (AFAICT # is usually ignored)
01:21:10 <kmc> array function parameters, integer promotion rules, signed char, trigraphs
01:21:18 <oerjan> perhaps google has an algorithm for finding words that need special casing.
01:22:09 <Bike> i get the same results from 'p# complexity' and 'p complexity'
01:22:36 <oerjan> kmc: sorry, r/watc isn't about c
01:24:34 <coppro> Bike: I get different results for "p complexity" and "#p complexity" though
01:24:54 <coppro> do we have a langguage that lets you literally specify Turing machines?
01:25:54 <coppro> because if we don't, I'm making one, and it will be called Tarpit
01:27:05 <oerjan> it all depends on what you mean by literally hth
01:27:54 <Bike> coppro: there was one in sigbovik once
01:29:45 <coppro> oerjan: I mean a language where the specification is some form of description of a turing machine
01:30:19 <coppro> actually I've got an even better idea
01:30:30 <coppro> a language where the input, in text, is a TM diagram
01:30:46 <Bike> also roughly half of computability papers go through the rigamarole of specifying TMs as tuples, does that count
01:31:54 <coppro> Bike: no because the tuple model is not actually something I can feed into a computer
01:32:09 <Bike> ok i'll get the sigbovik cite for ya
01:32:36 <coppro> oerjan: in reponse to which?
01:32:37 <oerjan> since when do computers have problems parsing tuples.
01:33:24 <Bike> "The Next 700 Intuitionistic Linear Logics" heh
01:33:33 <coppro> oerjan: oh no. I mean I know of no programming language whose source code is the tuple and the language executes the tuple as a TM
01:33:46 <oerjan> btw i recall mark chu-carroll wrote a turing machine emulator in haskell once.
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01:34:27 <Bike> ok apparently this one is written in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaid_%28programming_language%29
01:37:21 <Bike> the actual turing machine definition is in: Brother Jonathan Aldrich. (2010) Holy States Can Save the World! In ZH Bovik (ed.) A Record of the Proceedings of the SIGBOVIK Conference 2010.
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02:33:52 <newsham> is CPython compiled to asm.js "esoteric"?
02:33:52 <Bike> http://blog.detectify.com/post/82370846588/how-we-got-read-access-on-googles-production-servers nice
02:37:42 <Jafet> http://aturingmachine.com
02:37:52 <newsham> whoa, somebody kept a bug bounty and didnt donate it to charity?
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02:41:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tarpit]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39364 * Coppro * (+5913) Created page with "'''Tarpit''' is a description language for state diagrams of finite state machines and their generalizations. It is generally well established that the best description of fi..."
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02:50:56 <Sgeo> This game is a bit dated
02:50:57 <Sgeo> '"Uh, well, the government did actually use that Facebook information to draft people for the second Korean war in 2013..." Todd replied.'
02:54:36 <Jafet> 'Todd replied.' is this a book
02:57:41 <Sgeo> It's a choose-your-own-adventure game, but needing to take all paths to really get the full story
02:57:55 <Sgeo> http://www.kongregate.com/games/greg/thousand-dollar-soul-321811
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03:19:07 <Palaver> urbit as an esoteric programming language
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03:33:23 <Bike> the ukraine crisis as an esoteric programming language
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03:37:01 <oerjan> with its highlevel compareToChamberlain function
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03:38:34 <oerjan> clearly Chamberlain should just be an instance of the comparableTo class.
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03:48:02 <Sgeo> :t maybe Nothing . Just
03:48:04 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Maybe a’ with ‘a1 -> Maybe a2’
03:48:04 <lambdabot> Expected type: a -> a1 -> Maybe a2
03:48:35 <Sgeo> :t maybe Nothing Just
03:49:29 <myname> does anybody of you know what the & is supposed to do in rail?
03:51:00 <Bike> ruby on rails?
03:55:43 <newsham> bike: have you ported ruby to rail?
03:56:01 <Bike> ruby on the third rail
03:57:14 <Bike> myname: checked the article. & looks kind of like a twisted up track so without more definition of 'lambda' it's obviously a crash
04:00:41 <Sgeo> http://java.metagno.me/
04:00:55 <newsham> this stuff will probably kill you, lets do another line, what say you meet me down on hollywood and vine
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04:06:09 <Bike> StompWebApplicationContextAwareBean, not bad
04:08:19 <Sgeo> Are GADTs == 'closed' data families?
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04:30:54 <doesthiswork> I happened to be sitting in the library near a CS 120 tutoring area
04:31:43 <oerjan> do you think you'll get over it?
04:32:19 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/5/9/c/59c905daa195675abf6216e2f08ad32d.png can someone explain to me how physics even exists, as a field of study
04:34:04 <doesthiswork> when the students had left I asked the tutor and ill formed question about abstraction and partial application, and he explained that there was somthing called recusion that is pretty neat and that I should learn python
04:35:16 <oerjan> he did the appropriate thing and learned python by already knowing it
04:36:18 <oerjan> yes, that follows from the fact that it's recursion
04:52:29 <Sgeo> "Ah yes, the Before C Programing Language"
04:55:57 <newsham> Before C / Ano Dennisritchie
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04:57:33 <Sgeo> Haven't started reading (except that it proves False), but is http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/impredicativity-bites.html fixed yet?
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05:03:35 <Sgeo> o.O http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/types.html#de-typechecker
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05:06:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hollang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39365&oldid=39355 * Zerk * (+239)
05:07:14 <Sgeo> "Uncharitably speaking, Haskell, taken as a logic, is inconsistent in more than two ways."
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05:10:17 <Bike> stop the presses
05:11:56 <Jafet> "Essentially we turn a type into a logical program -- a set of Horn clauses -- which we then solve by SLD resolution. It is gratifying to see that Haskell typeclasses are up to that task."
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05:14:05 <newsham> i heard that haskell was not intended to be a sound logic.
05:15:26 <newsham> i heard that the easter bunny isnt real :(
05:15:47 <Bike> wow why would you say that on good friday? i'm pretty sure you're going to hell now
05:20:49 <newsham> what makes it a good friday?
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05:43:37 <Bike> Do spin glasses actually exist
05:45:03 <kmc> spin glass in yer ass
06:05:21 <Bike> well like in its spin ice article it at least gives an actual example (dysprosium titanate)
06:09:46 <Bike> http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1386818 Anyway here's a blast from the past for you: A worm
06:11:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hollang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39366&oldid=39362 * Zerk * (-280) Amended addition algorithm
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06:27:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hollang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39367&oldid=39366 * Doesthiswork * (-34) I am impressed, that is a much smarter program
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07:05:23 <Sgeo> "strncpy(d, s, strlen(s)) is a special kind of stupid. even when it’s right, it looks wrong. "
07:05:25 <Sgeo> I don't get it
07:07:17 <Jafet> Heh, I thought it's a useless version of strcpy(d, s), but on closer inspection it's completely wrong
07:09:05 <kmc> emotions and "irrational" behavior are a way for selfish genes to credibly commit to strategies which would be overruled by rational self-interest
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07:12:36 <Bike> Jafet: how's it different
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07:13:33 <Bike> i hear reason is and should be slave to the emotions
07:14:22 <kmc> Bike: we, alone on earth, have the power to free ourselves from the tyranny of the selfish replicators
07:14:25 <kmc> pass it on
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07:15:11 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <string.h>\nmain() { char a[] = "abcde", b[42]; strncpy(b, a, strlen(a)); return !puts(b); }\n' > /tmp/strncpy.c && gcc -o /tmp/strncpy{,.c} && /tmp/strncpy
07:15:46 <Jafet> `run echo $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <string.h>\nmain() { char a[] = "abcde", b[] = " :-)"; strncpy(b, a, strlen(a)); return !puts(b); }\n' > /tmp/strncpy.c && gcc -o /tmp/strncpy{,.c} && /tmp/strncpy
07:16:11 <Bike> can you use words
07:16:37 <kmc> ssl added and removed here
07:16:46 <Jafet> In english: don't use strncpy he is a lame guy
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07:18:29 <Bike> `run echo $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <string.h>\nmain() { char a[] = "abcde", b[] = " :-)"; strcpy(b, a); return !puts(b); }\n' > /tmp/strcpy.c && gcc -o /tmp/strcpy{,.c} && /tmp/strcpy
07:18:58 <Bike> oh, it doesn't copy the null
07:20:08 <Jafet> kmc: is that a new vhemt campaign
07:21:45 <Bike> i wonder if the selfish gene predates regulatory networks
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07:25:34 <Bike> i swear nobody keeps track of history with these things. need to give evolutionary biology a repo
07:25:40 <kmc> Jafet: the tyranny quote? no it's the last sentence of The Selfish Gene
07:26:11 <kmc> spot the irony anyone
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07:27:05 <Bike> brb setting up scumbag meme meme
07:27:12 <WOODMAN> Promoción GAWMiners para Compradores / vendedores Co-Op - 10% descuento en cualquier orden!
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07:34:13 -!- kmc has set channel mode: +b *!*@c-24-16-35-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net.
07:34:17 -!- kmc has kicked WOODMAN don't spam.
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07:34:41 <kmc> the bitcoin spam has reached us even here -_-
07:38:22 <kmc> i want a god who stays dead, not plays dead
07:42:02 <kmc> also, happy bicycle day
07:43:02 <Bike> 419, uh, spin it
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07:48:09 <kmc> drop it, more like
07:48:36 <Bike> why would you drop a bike :(
07:51:07 <kmc> Bike do you know what bicycle day is
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07:57:58 <Jafet> One short trip for humanity
07:58:46 <kmc> http://www.psychedelic-library.org/child.htm is a pretty good read
07:58:48 <Jafet> s/humanity/a man/ wow I mangled it more than I thought
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08:00:36 <Bike> "damn, this is the good shit" -- armstrong at some point, probably
08:01:05 <kmc> have you ever been on the moon... on weed
08:01:22 <Jafet> Someone needs to fund this
08:02:21 <Jafet> http://members.shaw.ca/rlongpre01/moon.html
08:03:29 <kmc> it's pretty tantalizing that only a tiny fraction of all possible psychedelics have ever been synthesized let alone tested in humans
08:03:59 <kmc> and that tiny sample has yielded some of the most mysterious and powerful psychopharmacological agents and has facilitated many of the most intense and meaningful experiences ever reported by human beings
08:05:11 <kmc> so what else is out there
08:07:05 <kmc> Jafet: yes
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08:08:35 <Jafet> The training simulation consists of taking weed on earth and pretending you're on the moon
08:09:24 <Jafet> It's cheap, no need to run a reality TV show
08:09:24 <Bike> what if there were two astronauts on the moon and one of them killed the other with a rock. would that be fucked up or what
08:09:27 <kmc> hotboxing a winnebago and calling it the lunar module
08:10:17 <kmc> actually there was an earlier The Onion: Our Dumb Century article
08:10:27 <kmc> "NASA, hippies race to send man to the moon"
08:11:22 <Bike> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-1958
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08:20:49 <kmc> Siamese Dream is a really good album
08:22:06 <Jafet> I wonder what point sandisk is making with this ad http://ds.serving-sys.com/BurstingRes/Site-19890/Type-0/39e1ac57-fdd0-4dad-a400-b4ea62db3b3f.jpg
08:22:34 <kmc> "we <3 jpeg artifacts"?
08:26:33 <kmc> time for me to sleep
08:27:00 <kmc> good night friends
08:34:55 <Taneb> I have came to replace kmx
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09:35:28 <Jafet> http://community.amd.com/community/amd-blogs/amd-gaming/blog/2014/03/03/the-wild-west-of-cryptocurrencies
09:35:36 <Jafet> "stay tuned for part two where we’ll explore in detail how AMD Radeon™ hardware helps provide a technological advantage for users participating in cryptocurrency mining!"
10:16:01 <myname> "changelog: switched ad network (requires more permissions)"
10:16:09 <myname> yeah, must have update for an app
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12:42:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * UncleMartin * New user account
12:42:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39368&oldid=38890 * UncleMartin * (+73) /* Example-based languages */
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14:45:18 <fizzie> For your edification, the weakly connected components of esolangs.org (considering as vertices only the main and category namespaces): http://sprunge.us/gSMg
14:46:22 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: does not take templates into account, so there are e.g. some stuff with {{stub}} that are not counted as part of the main component, since the [[Category:Stub]] link is not visible.)
14:49:43 <oerjan> hm those are essentially orphan pages
14:51:13 <fizzie> It's very close to Special:LonelyPages, yes. Though not quite exactly identical.
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15:26:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FukYorBrane]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39369&oldid=30341 * 91.125.123.39 * (+18) CoreWars -> Core War and link to Redcode
15:29:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39370&oldid=39047 * 91.125.123.39 * (+18) /* Related languages */ CoreWars -> Core War and link to Redcode
15:31:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39371&oldid=37998 * 91.125.123.39 * (+12) CoreWars -> Core War and link to Redcode
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15:45:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Agony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39372&oldid=35617 * 91.125.123.39 * (+1) /* AgonyWar */ CoreWar -> Core War
15:48:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pinkcode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39373&oldid=38039 * 91.125.123.39 * (-36) Core Wars -> Core War, changed link to Wikipedia disambiguation page for Redcode to Redcode page on Esolang wiki.
15:55:45 <mroman> How is Redcode related to Brainfuck?
15:57:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39374&oldid=35186 * 91.125.123.39 * (+4) /* External resources */ link to Redcode
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15:58:59 <impomatic> mroman: It's not. But there's a BF interpreter written in Redcode.
16:00:05 <impomatic> Unless you mean comparing FYB and BF Joust to Core War?
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17:05:36 <fizzie> Unsurprising fact: "Language list" is the center of esolangs.org: http://sprunge.us/QFJG
17:05:44 <fizzie> Analysis as per http://mu.netsoc.ie/wiki/ i.e. the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrality#Closeness_centrality metric in the single, 1272-page strongly connected component.
17:06:35 <fizzie> (Hence the numbers indicate the average number of clicks needed to get to any other page starting from the indicated one.)
17:11:30 <int-e> hmm. 3.1415 Underload
17:12:55 <fizzie> Intentional, I'm sure.
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17:49:24 <Bike> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/apps/s_socket.c.diff?r1=1.30;r2=1.31 "Added for T3E"
17:52:53 <int-e> heh. is that a computer without 32 bit ints?
17:53:33 <int-e> (that would be a reason to use bitfields for IPv4 addresses)
17:56:23 <kmc> impomatic: what's FYB?
17:56:52 <kmc> oh i see http://esolangs.org/wiki/FukYorBrane
17:59:02 <Bike> "The 21164 implemented a 43-bit virtual address and a 40-bit physical address."
17:59:07 <Bike> says it had 64 bit regs, though
18:00:46 <Bike> http://freshbsd.org/commit/openbsd/61596b948ab4b982ac734df79749707a4faa0f07 Important
18:01:14 <Bike> i dig the commit msg
18:01:16 <int-e> huh, the last one has four X
18:01:33 <Bike> it's explained in the commit message!!
18:20:38 <Bike> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/lib/libssl/src/apps/ca.c.diff?r1=1.43;r2=1.44 printf more like whybotherf
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18:53:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39375&oldid=39359 * Zerk * (+305) Added missing {a b c} format explanation
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19:37:01 <HackEgo> x+coin spuracoin critecoin bercoin alpecoin owlcoin selfinghacoin steprocoin lerecoin fobcoin boguetcoin shafsoncoin majecoin prelncoin 0500coin hagecoin smitacoin pbodancoin 0.1800001100acoin quatcoin
19:41:20 <Vorpal> I would styalize it so that coin is below the X+ and the + inside the < of the X
19:41:32 <Vorpal> coin is below the plus I mean
19:43:38 * impomatic wonders what these esocoin things are?
19:44:01 <fizzie> If you make a Markov chain with the transition probabilities taken from the links of the wiki (normalized, so that a page with two links to A and one link to B has a transition probability of 2/3 for A and 3/3 for B), this is the stationary distribution it has: http://sprunge.us/ARcB
19:44:06 <fizzie> I.e. if you keep clicking random links forever, that's relatively how often you'll be visiting each page.
19:44:57 <fizzie> (Er, assuming you only click those links that stay in the strongly connected component of pages.)
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19:47:30 <boily> strange. aubergine is more linked than betterave.
19:48:42 <olsner> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betterave?
19:49:22 <Vorpal> why does "Befunge/index.php" exist?
19:50:02 <Vorpal> Or rather, why that name for that language
19:50:10 <boily> olsner: betterave.
19:51:32 <boily> olsner: most probably.
19:51:45 <Vorpal> olsner, interwiki links seems to suggest it is beta in general
19:51:52 <Vorpal> Though that could be wrong
19:52:35 <Vorpal> olsner, so does the Latin name, which is probably more accurate than the interwiki links
19:52:41 <olsner> yeah, seems like it's beets general
19:52:59 <olsner> it mentions e.g. betterave rouge and betterave a sucre
19:53:35 <mroman> Has anyone actually tried taking an existing conventional programming language and just interpret it differently?
19:53:42 <Vorpal> olsner, oh it seems rödbeta is a cultivated variant of the beet family, that it is in fact not a separate species
19:53:57 <fizzie> boily: Aubergine has incoming links from "Aubergine/aubergine.hs", "Carriage", "Language list" and "List of quines"; Betterave has incoming links from "Hello world program in esoteric languages", "Language list" and "Truth-machine" only.
19:53:58 <mroman> so that the source code remains at least syntactically valid in both languages
19:54:16 <fizzie> (I guess there's probably a MediaWiki special page for looking that up already?)
19:54:33 <elliott> it's linked in the sidebar of every page
19:54:53 <fizzie> Well, [pages[p] for p in (a[:,pagemap['Aubergine']] > 0).nonzero()[0].tolist()] is clearly much easier than that.
19:55:20 <Vorpal> elliott, why the name "Befunge/index.php". It says you made that language.
19:55:27 <fizzie> (I have no idea why I have (a > 0).nonzero() in place of a.nonzero().)
19:55:36 <boily> mroman: you mean, unconscious polyglots?
19:56:28 <mroman> that depends what unconscious means :)
19:56:29 <elliott> Vorpal: same reason as http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck/w/index.php%3Ftitle%3DTalk:Brainfuck/index.php
19:56:34 <mroman> except for being knocked out
19:56:43 <boily> mroman: got my prefixes mixed.
19:56:52 <Vorpal> elliott, ....yes I just found that, and I still don't know the reason for that either
19:57:13 <boily> but then, I really like that “unconscious polyglot” idea.
19:57:31 * boily imagines a coma patient that can not speak in multiple languages
19:57:49 <mroman> Every program would be a polyglot I guess
19:58:06 <mroman> Except it might not do the same thing
19:58:31 <olsner> hmm, might make it harder to make an actual polyglot
19:58:54 <Vorpal> elliott, what happened to your befunge-98 implementation btw? In haskell iirc?
19:59:12 <elliott> or on some random hard drive
19:59:56 <mroman> For unconventional languages these already exist
20:00:05 <mroman> just consider flipping + and - in Brainfuck and there you go
20:00:20 <mroman> same syntax/grammer, different meaning.
20:03:11 <Vorpal> mroman, you could do the same in, say, C. Wouldn't be very interesting though, most programs just wouldn't work properly if you swapped, say, / and *
20:03:13 <mroman> Obviously you could do the same thing in C.
20:03:33 <mroman> I had the same thought just at the same time
20:03:53 <mroman> but yeah. I hate it when a seemingly good idea suddenly turns boring again :(
20:04:18 <mroman> although it could still be interesting. But you have to be more creative than just switch / and *
20:04:23 <Vorpal> Right, prepare to be disappointed by life then. That happens 99 times out of 100
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20:04:42 <mroman> I'm already suffering from depression. So...
20:05:22 <mroman> ... I'm already rather disappointed
20:05:26 <Vorpal> I have a hard time of thinking of any transformation that would result in programs not specially written for this new language duality doing interesting stuff
20:05:52 <Vorpal> Of course you could always write programs that check for it and do interesting stuff in either case
20:06:39 <mroman> You could just add new features to it.
20:07:27 <mroman> Is "abc"+"abc" legal C code?
20:08:07 <Taneb> I'm in the mood to make an esolang
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20:08:22 <olsner> you can add almost anything, but not two pointers (without casting)
20:08:23 <Vorpal> "Shockwave Flash has crashed". Dammit flash
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20:08:43 <doesthiswork> do you folk already know about pointer machines? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointer_machine
20:09:10 <Vorpal> mroman, I think that would add up the addresses of the pointers to the strings
20:09:15 <Vorpal> mroman, if it is legal that is
20:09:20 <mroman> Vorpal: it's not legal.
20:09:30 <mroman> I'd thought it add up the addresses yes
20:10:03 <Taneb> Pointers are a torsor or something
20:10:34 <Vorpal> doesthiswork, I heard of it iirc
20:11:06 <Vorpal> "Pointer machines cannot do arithmetic. Computation proceeds only by reading input symbols, modifying and doing various tests on its storage structure—the pattern of nodes and pointers, and outputting symbols based on the tests. "Information" is in the storage structure."
20:11:11 <Vorpal> I'm not sure I believe that
20:11:31 <Vorpal> Couldn't you come up with a numeric representation for those systems?
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20:14:43 <mroman> Maybe that's meant like "Brainfuck can't multiply numbers"
20:16:03 <Vorpal> mroman, it can, you just need to do it by a fairly inefficient algorithm
20:16:27 <int-e> Vorpal: I believe you missed the point
20:16:34 <int-e> "it's not built into the language"
20:18:48 <Taneb> I'm going to make a new esolang BEFORE MIDNIGHT
20:19:01 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sat Apr 19 21:19:01
20:19:05 <Vorpal> Taneb, that is a nice name, when are you going to make it ;)
20:20:01 <olsner> so midnight is an hour later for you
20:20:27 <Taneb> British Summer Time
20:20:48 <mroman> I was opting for B____ saving time
20:20:57 <Taneb> Bullshit saving time
20:21:36 <Vorpal> mroman, generally it is called "summer time" not "saving time" in Europe I think
20:22:23 <olsner> is summer the savings time? I always thought winter is when daylight is in need of saving
20:22:37 <Vorpal> I'm in CEST for example, Central European Summer Time
20:23:14 <lambdabot> Local time for olsner is Sweetmorn, the 1st of Chaos in the 3136 YOLD
20:23:20 <mroman> olsner: It's a mistery
20:23:46 <Vorpal> why is it ignoring me?
20:24:00 <Vorpal> How do I set the local time
20:24:03 <lambdabot> time <user>. Print a user's local time. User's client must support ctcp pings.
20:24:24 <olsner> slightly surprised the ctcp reply from the other computer survived ZNC (currently on the laptop which apparently didn't get to also respond)
20:24:29 <Vorpal> Yeah I filter all CTCP
20:24:40 <Vorpal> well except CTCP ACTION
20:24:43 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
20:24:59 <fungot> olsner: mr president, the evidence indicates that community import conditions and controls at external borders and of border crossing points, one about the single currency project have been forced by fear of famine and warfare. the khran rebels, holding some six hundred civilians hostage, used them as human beings.
20:25:13 <Vorpal> -olsner- TIME Sweetmorn, the 1st of Chaos in the 3136 YOLD
20:25:13 <Vorpal> -olsner- TIME Sat Apr 19 22:25:07
20:25:18 <Vorpal> I'm getting two answers
20:25:33 <lambdabot> Local time for mroman is Sat Apr 19 22:25:30 2014
20:25:45 <myname> the first one is clearly more important
20:25:57 <Vorpal> -olsner- GNU sed version 4.2.1
20:25:57 <Vorpal> -olsner- VERSION xchat 2.8.8 Ubuntu
20:26:11 <Vorpal> the first one is even lacking the VERSION string
20:26:22 <olsner> might be nondeterministic which one answers then, and lambdabot probably picks the first ... perhaps I can set up something nice in znc
20:26:46 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, i want to welcome the commissioner.
20:26:50 <lambdabot> Local time for fungot is I AM TIME ITSELF
20:27:10 <lambdabot> Local time for fizzie is Sat Apr 19 23:28:07 2014
20:27:19 <olsner> Vorpal: perhaps I just chose to respond usisng a CTCP GNU? that should be allowed?
20:28:17 <fizzie> Graph visualization is a https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140419-links.pdf good tool for data exploration.
20:28:42 <Vorpal> olsner, pretty sure the response should be prefixed with the original command
20:28:48 <Vorpal> olsner, so that would be with VERSION
20:28:59 <Vorpal> not sure of if it should be caps or not
20:29:43 <Vorpal> olsner, but I guess you could argue that you are sending an answer to something that was never sent
20:29:53 <Vorpal> in which case you shouldn't respond to it
20:34:43 <b_jonas> fungot, do you find words that start with five consonants inherently funny?
20:34:45 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, i want to wish you a fruitful presidency and we could go along with the outcome of the meeting at laeken. unfortunately, the working conditions and puts pressure on wages, implemented by the member states to look at the role that one of the most difficult question is probably whether and to what extent merchant shipbuilding is competitive in the long run if we are to find the funding to do so, in practice
20:35:22 <Vorpal> b_jonas, words such as?
20:35:29 -!- boily has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:35:48 <Vorpal> I can't think of any such words off the top of my head
20:36:30 <int-e> happy easter, fungot!
20:36:30 <fungot> int-e: mr president, honourable member, this particular accident again raises the problem of choices, the commission can intervene immediately. a further consolidation, a new regulation was adopted just last year i attended the coordinators' meeting of the conference.
20:36:44 <int-e> "raises the problem of choices"
20:36:45 <b_jonas> Vorpal: I'm laughing all day at a sign in the metro that has two typos, one of which resulted in the word зкстренного
20:36:56 <mroman> Does "sch" count as three consonants?
20:37:03 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well I'm not russian so that doesn't help
20:37:18 <int-e> and in russian there is a single letter for that sound
20:38:06 <fizzie> There seem to be no real such words like that in my /usr/share/dict/words; the only matches are stuff like "HTML's".
20:38:11 <b_jonas> maybe we need an esoteric language for this, one that likes crazy consonant clusters
20:38:16 <olsner> I'd say it depends on what you mean by consonant, those are three letters and each is a consonant letter, but pronounciation is likely to be a single consonant sound
20:38:39 <Vorpal> grep -E '^[qrtpsdfghklzxcvbnm]{5}' /usr/share/dict/words
20:38:53 <Vorpal> Assuming I got the consonants for English right
20:39:15 <fizzie> Y is sometimes a vowel, sometimes a consonant, or so I've heard.
20:39:23 <int-e> funny, i'd have checked them in alphabetical order :)
20:39:35 <Vorpal> There are words with 4 though, all but one use sch[lmnrt]
20:39:37 <int-e> rather than scanning the keyboard
20:40:30 <Vorpal> int-e, anyway I'm not sure if I got them right for English
20:40:35 <Vorpal> Since I'm not a native speaker
20:40:37 <olsner> fizzie: that's what I've heard for english, but swedish counts Y as a proper vowel afaik
20:40:47 <fizzie> olsner: Oh, it's always a vowel in Finnish too.
20:41:09 <Vorpal> anyway allowing y there are a few
20:41:15 <fizzie> (I did [^aeiouy], FWIW; there are words when counting y, but they all sound pretty vowely.)
20:41:17 <Vorpal> but them I don't know if they count
20:41:20 <olsner> oh, and yet other times, Y is thorn
20:41:21 <Taneb> I'm thinking about making this language have nasty implementation-defined evaluation order
20:41:54 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think there's already such a language
20:42:06 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Whenever
20:42:36 <Vorpal> given something like f(a(x), b(y)) it is undefined if a or b is called first
20:42:43 <Vorpal> Same goes for a() + b()
20:42:55 <fizzie> Not for a(); b(); though.
20:43:04 <Taneb> I was actually thinking more like http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/burns/pf.html
20:43:26 <int-e> Vorpal: I wonder about the status of 'w'.
20:43:31 <olsner> sounds like Whenever makes it possible to specify ordering using dependencies/conditions, might want to get rid of that
20:43:44 <int-e> but I'm not a native speaker either.
20:44:14 <int-e> on that topic, how many syllables would you say "polynomial" has?
20:44:34 <olsner> if u is a vowel, w should be a double-vowel
20:44:58 <Vorpal> int-e, po-ly-no-mi-al?
20:45:26 <Vorpal> olsner, I guess I could be pronouncing it wrong then?
20:45:31 <Taneb> int-e, I... actually pronounce it poh-nom-yal
20:45:37 <int-e> I've had a native speaker tell me there are 4; my personal vote goes to 4.5 ;-)
20:45:37 <Taneb> Because I'm a bad person
20:45:45 <Bike> "An important feature of the implementation of Pascal-FC is the random switching between user processes incorporated into the run-time system. This provides an excellent simulation of true parallelism and invariably finds bugs in poorly structured programs. " nice
20:46:02 <Bike> pol ee nom ee ul
20:46:24 <ion> poh-lay-nor-mee-hal
20:46:25 <fizzie> "poly|no|mial" says LaTeX for allowed hyphenation points, but maybe that's not quite the same thing.
20:46:26 <Vorpal> Taneb, are you skipping sounds then??
20:46:45 <Vorpal> Taneb, is that common with native speakers?
20:47:03 <int-e> Taneb: wait, you dropped the 'ly'?
20:47:31 <int-e> Taneb: deliberately?
20:48:01 <olsner> if saying it sloppily I might go as far as pol-nom-yal
20:48:02 <Taneb> No, it's how I pronounce it when I'm not thinking and talking quickly
20:48:06 <doesthiswork> for me its 5 syllabls but since english is stress timed the lengths are 1, .5, 1, .5, .5
20:48:54 <int-e> somehow this lack of agreement makes me happy
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20:50:18 <Taneb> int-e, but I would say 5 if I hadn't said it under my breath
20:51:09 <olsner> that's an awful lot of syllables
20:51:30 <doesthiswork> it sounds like olsner is consitantly reducing unstressed close unrounded vowels
20:52:01 <int-e> olsner: does that make it a syllabus?
20:52:06 <Vorpal> fizzie, how do you ask LaTeX for hypen-points?
20:52:52 <Taneb> Right, this language is shaping up...
20:53:04 <fizzie> Vorpal: LuaLaTeX + \usepackage{showhyphens}.
20:53:43 <fizzie> Vorpal: Though IIRC it prints them in the "overfull hbox" errors too.
20:54:03 <Vorpal> right, that is not quite as useful
20:55:03 <fizzie> Oh, there's a (TeX-level) command for it, though it doesn't end in the document.
20:56:13 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/jHNO like that.
20:57:19 <olsner> doesthiswork: I think I mostly just articulate poorly
20:58:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39376&oldid=39375 * Zerk * (+1433) Clarified whitespace, added section /* Macros */ and the relevant specification.
20:59:59 <mroman> Can I encode numbers as "state"?
21:00:04 <Sgeo> Reading a Reddit thread about ramen noodles
21:00:23 <Sgeo> As far as I can tell, they're saying the big danger is lack of nutrients if it's eaten exclusively
21:00:34 <Taneb> Oh man, this is going to be really awkward
21:00:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boxy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39377&oldid=39376 * Zerk * (+2) clarification
21:00:42 <mroman> I can treat "increment" as a transition from state 0 to 1, from state 1 to 2 from state 2 to 3 and so on
21:00:43 <Taneb> Not the ramen, the esolang I'm making
21:00:43 <olsner> yes, sgeo, you can't live only on ramen noodles
21:00:55 <Taneb> Man cannot live on ramen alone
21:01:08 <olsner> it's basically wheat flour, a small amount of fat and spices
21:01:47 <Sgeo> But if I have a chicken sandwich for lunch, I shouldn't be too concerned if I have ramen for dinner?
21:01:47 <mroman> but if I wanted two numbers I'd need a0,a1,a2... and b0,b1,b2... and so on
21:02:42 <Vorpal> Sgeo, in general you need a varied diet.
21:02:43 <olsner> Sgeo: it's usually the sum of nutrients that matters, and no normal foods have negative value
21:03:09 <Vorpal> olsner, also varied diet to get all the required vitamins and so on
21:03:55 <Sgeo> So, if for dinner sometimes I have a chicken sandwich, sometimes pizza, sometimes ramen, sometimes instant pasta, is that sufficiently varied/
21:04:28 <pikhq> Wow, you eat like a third grader.
21:04:54 <Taneb> And yet you still eat better than I do during termtime
21:05:09 <Vorpal> Sgeo, what about... salads?
21:05:30 <Sgeo> I used to eat pasta + parmesan cheese every night
21:05:46 <Sgeo> But I really don't want to cook in this horrific place
21:05:55 <Vorpal> I know I eat too one-sided but still I eat better than that
21:06:10 <olsner> Sgeo: then how will you feed yourself?
21:06:17 <Sgeo> olsner: eating out every day?
21:08:29 <Vorpal> How the hell does /home have 19 GB free?
21:09:25 <Sgeo> I could go start buying bananas from 7-eleven
21:09:28 <HackEgo> df: Warning: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory \ Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on \ - 40573996 6747216 31769748 18% /hackenv
21:09:31 <olsner> my (other) /home has 305MB
21:09:43 <HackEgo> df: cannot read table of mounted file systems: No such file or directory
21:09:50 <HackEgo> rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0 \ none /bin hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/ 0 0 \ none /usr hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/ 0 0 \ none /dev hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/ 0 0 \ none /opt hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/ 0 0 \ none /lib hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/ 0 0 \ none /sbin hostfs ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/ 0 0 \ none /lib64 hostfs ro,nosuid,relati
21:09:59 <HackEgo> cat: /etc/mtab: No such file or directory
21:10:18 <Sgeo> Maybe I should do that now
21:10:27 <Sgeo> Instead of eating candy as a hunger fixer
21:10:50 <Sgeo> I do seem to have found the one candy that I can buy and it actually lasts longer than a few hours
21:10:55 <int-e> ``cut -d\ -f2 /proc/mounts
21:10:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cut: not found
21:11:11 <fizzie> olsner: That's not quite "my other car is a Porsche".
21:11:22 <fizzie> int-e: You missed a space.
21:11:38 <int-e> `` cut -d\ -f2 /proc/mounts
21:11:38 <HackEgo> / \ /bin \ /usr \ /dev \ /opt \ /lib \ /sbin \ /lib64 \ /hackenv \ /hackenv/.hg \ /etc/alternatives \ /etc/java-6-openjdk \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib \ /tmp \ /proc \ /sys
21:11:59 <int-e> `` echo $(cut -d\ -f2 /proc/mounts)
21:12:00 <HackEgo> / /bin /usr /dev /opt /lib /sbin /lib64 /hackenv /hackenv/.hg /etc/alternatives /etc/java-6-openjdk /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib /tmp /proc /sys
21:12:03 <olsner> fizzie: this /home has a whopping 34GB though
21:12:12 <int-e> that's a lot of mount points :)
21:12:21 <olsner> or really it's the pool that has it now, but /home can have it if it needs it
21:12:33 <fizzie> int-e: They're all UML fakey-mounts, to be fair.
21:13:06 <int-e> /etc/alternatives. interesting. :)
21:13:24 <fizzie> `run cat /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox | paste
21:13:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.18813
21:13:34 <fizzie> There are some internals there, if you're curious.
21:13:48 <Taneb> Right, I think I have give or take defined this language
21:14:17 <Taneb> It ought to have an implementation just so I can show people what exactly I mean
21:14:24 <olsner> hmm, curious use of python, that looks like a shell script
21:14:39 <Taneb> Ack! It's nowhere near TC
21:15:08 <fizzie> olsner: At least there's no shell injection whatnots with subprocess.call if you mess up quoting or something.
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21:17:04 <fizzie> It's quite the command-line, though; `foo -> nice ... umlbox ... env ... limits ... foo.
21:19:07 <olsner> four other tools that also need to not mess up quoting
21:20:13 <fizzie> The /etc/alternatives comes from the umlbox --base-mounts flag; it automatically mounts (as read-only) the host directories /usr, /bin, /sbin, /lib, /lib32, /lib64, /etc/alternatives and /dev.
21:20:27 <olsner> hmm, except they're not shell scripts obviously (probably)
21:20:29 <elliott> that's a shell script because of me, I think
21:21:07 <elliott> fizzie: cat ... | paste === url ...
21:21:18 <fizzie> elliott: Except you can't do `url on that file.
21:21:52 <fizzie> It's too special for that.
21:22:49 <ion> http://freshbsd.org/commit/openbsd/e5136d69ece4682e6167c8f4a8122270236898bf
21:23:14 <fizzie> Though it's pretty much identical to https://github.com/GregorR/hackbot/blob/master/multibot_cmds/lib/sandbox except for the commented-out /var/irclogs.
21:26:24 <fizzie> It's probably mean of me, but I keep hoping the OpenBSD folks will do something like the Debian no-entropy-for-you while they're stripping stuff of of OpenSSL.
21:27:24 <olsner> I consider it inevitable that some bugs will be introduced
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21:27:30 <Sgeo> bought bananas
21:28:32 <olsner> but they might also find and fix them (easier?) now that the code is less bananas
21:30:37 <Bike> fizzie: the debian what
21:31:18 <fizzie> Bike: https://www.debian.org/security/2008/dsa-1571
21:31:24 <fizzie> I'm sure you heard of it.
21:32:03 <Bike> i don't think i even used linux in 2008
21:32:33 <fizzie> Debian patched some Valgrind warnings out of their OpenSSL, and incidentally also made all keys generated with that OpenSSL trivially guessable, more or less.
21:33:29 <fizzie> There were a lot of weak SSH keys.
21:33:46 <newsham> olsner: as in unfound bug? or do bugs that they introduce and then find and fix count?
21:34:12 <newsham> olsner: i imagine there will be more bugs inadvertantly fixed than inadvertantly introduced.. but I guess we'll see
21:34:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, ssh? I thought OpenSSL was pretty much separate from OpenSSH?
21:35:07 <pikhq> OpenSSH uses OpenSSL for its crypto though.
21:35:09 <newsham> openssh uses primitives from openssl including random numbers
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21:35:42 <pikhq> Because OpenSSL is not an SSL library, it is a complete library for everything even superficially related to crypto.
21:35:55 <Vorpal> Yes I know, libcrypto and libssl
21:36:01 <pikhq> Including, of course, SSL-without-encryption.
21:36:04 <Vorpal> I didn't know that openssh used libcrypto though
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21:36:39 <fizzie> `run ldd $(which ssh-keygen) | grep crypto
21:36:39 <HackEgo> ldd: missing file arguments \ Try `ldd --help' for more information.
21:36:46 <Vorpal> Also OpenSSL has a terrible design, I used a tiny bit of libcrypto myself
21:36:56 <Vorpal> It is a terribly designed API
21:37:21 <olsner> newsham: I sure hope there will be more things fixed than broken :)
21:37:33 <Vorpal> Or rather, there are like 5 versions of the API, and it isn't clear which one is the recommended one generally
21:37:34 <pikhq> OpenSSL is a fun way to learn C.
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21:37:58 <Vorpal> pikhq, The internal coding style guideline is even worse
21:38:04 <pikhq> It has guidelines?
21:38:14 <Vorpal> pikhq, well the *result* is terrible at least
21:38:18 <Vorpal> I assume there are guidelines
21:38:45 <oerjan> fizzie: hm i was wondering why deadfish got so low on that center thing
21:39:06 <oerjan> then i remembered that deadfish splitup...
21:39:11 <fizzie> StartSSL allowed for a free rekeying of affected certificates back when that Debian thing happened.
21:39:26 <oerjan> and then i remembered something else. there are a lot of section links into deadfish.
21:39:28 <fizzie> (They're sticking to their $24.90/cert fee for any heartbleed-affected ones, however.)
21:40:51 <int-e> is there any human involved in "earning" that money?
21:41:20 <fizzie> I think they do have a human looking over revocation requests, yes.
21:41:33 <Vorpal> /usr/bin/ccache: error while loading shared libraries: libz.so.1: cannot open shared object file: Error 24
21:41:40 <fizzie> Because Twitter has it some people have gotten their revocations for free, even if the official policy is that it's not.
21:41:54 <Vorpal> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libz.so.1
21:42:13 <oerjan> ok, why doesn't "this links here" tell whether links are section links twh
21:42:15 <Vorpal> Huh, ccache --help works though
21:42:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: #define EMFILE 24 /* Too many open files */
21:43:12 <fizzie> (Assuming you have matching error numbers.)
21:43:36 <Vorpal> That is per process right?
21:44:12 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, I probably should've considered section links as links to the page itself.
21:44:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Deadfish implementations]]": I just realized the move broke section links to the original.
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21:44:41 <Vorpal> oh wait, ccache resolves to ccache-swig in the end
21:44:47 <Vorpal> $ file -s /usr/bin/ccache-swig /usr/bin/ccache-swig2.0
21:44:47 <Vorpal> /usr/bin/ccache-swig: symbolic link to `ccache-swig2.0'
21:44:47 <Vorpal> /usr/bin/ccache-swig2.0: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0x390684d9747dd1b7b2ea1a4e842962607f7306cb, stripped
21:44:55 <Vorpal> running ccache-swig2.0 doesn't
21:45:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39378&oldid=39237 * Oerjan * (+59486) Undo revision 39237 by [[Special:Contributions/Nooodl|Nooodl]] ([[User talk:Nooodl|talk]]) (Breaks section links and half the point of the article)
21:45:09 <int-e> `` perl -e 'use POSIX;print strerror(24)."\n"'
21:45:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, lol, swig provides ccache-swig
21:45:59 <Vorpal> and actual ccache is not installed
21:47:20 <olsner> I wonder what ccache-swig actually does
21:47:36 <Vorpal> man page seems to suggest it is ccache with swig-support
21:48:36 <fizzie> oerjan: Do you have opinions on whether "that center thing" should optimally look at other namespaces in addition to main and Category? (E.g. User.)
21:49:52 <olsner> Vorpal: try installing the real ccache?
21:50:20 <oerjan> fizzie: possibly Esolang:
21:50:35 <Vorpal> it replaced the swig one
21:51:37 <Bike> `run echo hi; echo $?
21:51:56 <fizzie> Strongly connected component now 1303 vertices when considering also Esolang: and converting section links to links of the page.
21:52:04 <oerjan> fizzie: oh and you aren't including the sidebar links are you?
21:52:13 <oerjan> those also feel dubious
21:52:20 <fizzie> No, just [[...]] in the article source.
21:52:44 <fizzie> (Which also means templates are not... what's the fancy MediaWiki word for expanding them?)
21:53:01 <fizzie> Transclusion? No, that was expanding with some particular semantics.
21:53:11 <fizzie> (I'm no kind of MediaWiki admin.)
21:53:51 <int-e> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Templates "Templates are standard wiki pages whose content is designed to be transcluded (embedded) inside other pages."
21:55:23 <olsner> what's the difference between transclusion and inclusion then?
21:55:43 <Vorpal> I would like to see some sort of general "distribution" engine. That worked on stuff other than compilers. It could work by creating a virtual environment on the remote machine, pulling additional files if they were opened (and then learning the behaviour of commands for the future, to avoid sending un-needed files, but send all needed files in advance)
21:56:22 <Vorpal> So it would send over the invoked binary and all dependencies if they didn't exist locally, probably building a hash-directory of files in /lib and so on
21:56:30 <int-e> olsner: ironically you can preclude text from transclusion using <noinclude></noinclude> markup
21:56:53 <Vorpal> Some sort of fuse thing could probably do it? Maybe uml?
21:57:14 <int-e> . o O ( playing cludeo )
21:57:22 <fizzie> oerjan: Though I don't think incoming links *to* Deadfish should (and didn't seem to, after all) affect its (directed-graph) closeness centrality much, since it's defined as the average shortest-path distance to any other page when starting from Deadfish.
21:58:16 <olsner> I think icecc is pretty close, it uses an archive that becomes a chroot environment for the command to run
21:58:50 <fizzie> It did bump the Markov chain stationary distribution number of Deadfish up from 0.000647 to 0.000648, however!
21:58:55 <Vorpal> olsner, having trouble finding the icecc you refer to
21:59:00 <olsner> but it has code for parsing compiler command lines and doing preprocessing locally, and such... so you'd have to modify it to do other things with it
21:59:23 <oerjan> <Vorpal> why does "Befunge/index.php" exist? <-- i vaguely think that's one of the "taken over after a spammer created it" pages
21:59:23 <Vorpal> olsner, oh okay, yeah that helped find the correct one
21:59:31 <Vorpal> oerjan, as elliott said
21:59:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * CyrillicFez * New user account
22:00:34 <Vorpal> oerjan, yeah it just seems like a centralized distcc really
22:01:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArnoldC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39379 * CyrillicFez * (+192) Created page with "ArnoldC is an esoteric programming language created with Scala by Lauri Hartikka. The source is available [https://github.com/lhartikk/ArnoldC here], along with tutorials and ..."
22:02:50 <olsner> last time I checked, distcc only worked on identical machines, but maybe icecc and distcc are more equivalent now
22:03:28 <newsham> has anyone written AES in bf yet?
22:03:44 <Vorpal> olsner, yeah distcc does that, unless you do a cross compiler, in which case only the cross system root needs to be identical
22:04:03 <Vorpal> olsner, and that is only for pump mode, in otherwise just the compiler needs to be identical
22:04:17 <Vorpal> olsner, I was thinking some sort of transparent thing that would monitor resources used by the command to determine what needed transferring, So if it tried to open /usr/share/foo and that was not already sent over, it would be on demand. Then it would remember that access for the future, and if it was accessed consistently it would send that over on every run and/or cache it
22:04:55 <Vorpal> olsner, dependency extraction from command line arguments would be tricky though
22:05:15 <Vorpal> it could detect if a file was used that was mentioned on the command line, but I'n not sure about includes and such,
22:05:23 <fizzie> Few other random esolang statistics: maximum out-degree 858 ("Language list", such a surprise); maximum in-degree 376 ("Category:Languages", ditto).
22:05:32 <Vorpal> I guess you could manually write extractors for that, but then you would be back to specially handling all of that
22:05:50 <int-e> fizzie: so who are the runner-ups?
22:05:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about non-category/list ones?
22:06:09 <fizzie> Just a moment, I'll make a top-ten or so.
22:06:43 <int-e> out of curiositty, how many edges do you have at the moment?
22:07:26 <fizzie> 10815 edges between 1781 articles, when not doing the strongly-connected component restriction.
22:07:55 <fizzie> Or 10143 edges if collapsing multiple links to one.
22:08:15 <int-e> (so there's no trouble with keeping them all in memory then :-) )
22:08:21 <Vorpal> olsner, yeah icecream is nice, but not quite where I want it
22:08:33 <fizzie> Not yet. There's even no trouble with keeping a non-sparse adjacency matrix.
22:08:59 <fizzie> It's certainly no en.wikipedia, that's for sure.
22:09:08 <newsham> automatic dependency tracking is awesome
22:09:25 <newsham> its the magic that lets CUPS get installed no matter what program you want to install
22:09:31 <Vorpal> newsham, exactly, so a combination of icecream and tup I guess
22:10:10 <Vorpal> newsham, I was looking at it for a different context though
22:10:42 <newsham> magic: cabal install cabal-install
22:10:51 <int-e> newsham: there's that awful application side of cups, libcups, that tends to pull it in :/
22:11:22 <fizzie> Oh, right, http://sprunge.us/PDcj for a top-50 out/in-degrees.
22:11:39 <newsham> inte: also most packages dont need it but lots of them have it enabled in the default "./configure" so all the binary packages have it as a dep
22:11:48 <newsham> even though there will never be a printer hooked up to my computer
22:12:17 <Vorpal> fizzie, so basically Brainfuck in both cases for actual esolang
22:12:27 <fizzie> Many of those 461 in-edges to "Esoteric programming language" are probably first-paragraph "X is a [[esoteric programming language]] ..." stuff.
22:12:30 <int-e> oh wow, when did the firefox threads get distinct names?
22:12:37 <Vorpal> newsham, so use gentoo
22:12:41 <Vorpal> newsham, where you can turn it off
22:12:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, what is that
22:12:55 <newsham> vorpal: what makes you think i was talking about linux?
22:13:11 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, that was a joke btw
22:13:18 <newsham> vorpal: why do you hate me?
22:13:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, also there are good VPN services, I can recommend a couple
22:13:28 <Vorpal> newsham, do I? That was news to me
22:13:34 <int-e> (I was surprised by http://sprunge.us/RdUT )
22:13:36 <newsham> vorpal: you wanted to gen2 me :(
22:13:39 <Vorpal> newsham, anyway what *are* you using then
22:13:57 <Vorpal> newsham, it was a joke, you could just turn off CUPS there
22:14:05 <Vorpal> I stopped using gentoo years ago
22:14:16 <newsham> what do you need vpn for? if its for avoiding geolocation, i know a proxy that is better than general proxy since it will geolocate you diff places depending on which site you hit
22:14:31 <newsham> vorpal: freebsd (also ubuntu)
22:14:52 <fizzie> int-e: Huh, that's so fancy. Thunderbird (well, Icedove) and Chromium threads have reasonable names, too.
22:14:53 <Vorpal> newsham, well okay, with ports can't you turn flags on and off? I don't remember
22:15:21 <newsham> vorpal: you can do it manually in ports, but if you use precompiled packages you will get cups
22:15:28 <newsham> its the kevin bacon of packages
22:15:42 <Vorpal> | | | |-mate-panel-+-chromium-+-chrome-sandbox---chromium---chromium---3*[chromium---{chromium}]
22:15:43 <Vorpal> | | | | | |-chromium-+-chromium
22:15:43 <Vorpal> | | | | | | `-3*[{chromium}]
22:15:43 <Vorpal> | | | | | `-48*[{chromium}]
22:15:48 <Vorpal> that doesn't look like reasonable names
22:16:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Possibly new, then: http://sprunge.us/NANf
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22:16:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <newsham> what do you need vpn for? if its for avoiding geolocation, i know a proxy that is better than general proxy since it will geolocate you diff places depending on which site you hit
22:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> geolocation isn't the issue, it's the isp blocking the site altogether
22:17:04 <newsham> then vpn it is.. there are lots of them.. usually around $10/mo, sometimes a little cheaper
22:17:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, not debian stable I guess
22:17:20 <fizzie> Vorpal: No, this is on jessie.
22:17:20 -!- Patashu_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:17:47 <fizzie> "Chromium 33.0.1750.152 Debian jessie/sid (256984)"
22:18:05 <Vorpal> newsham, doesn't a proxy work for that?
22:18:22 <int-e> I'm using jessie here, too.
22:18:39 <newsham> vorpal: if you use a dns-based proxy it can proxy through different geo-sites for different services. vs a vpn where you pop out at a fixed point for the duration of your vpn tunnel
22:18:59 <newsham> phantom: i dont use it to pirate
22:19:30 <newsham> i use it to stream tv from uk, fr, ca, ...
22:19:58 <newsham> through the legit tv station websites
22:20:00 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, see /msg
22:20:10 <newsham> (they just geo-lock it based on ip addr)
22:21:30 <fizzie> newsham: Presumably that's still pirating. (At least the Finnish public broadcasting company's site geo-locks those programs they have distribution rights only for within Finland.)
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22:21:55 <Vorpal> newsham, what proxy do you use btw?
22:22:00 <fizzie> (I guess some of them might be less discriminating.)
22:22:05 <Vorpal> I would like one in US at times
22:22:09 <newsham> fizzie: depends on who you believe. i've heard industry lawyers say that video taping tv shows is pirating and that copying your cd to mp3 files is pirating
22:22:16 <newsham> despite the us govt stating otherwise
22:22:33 <Taneb> int-e, lambdabot is breaking in -lens
22:22:43 <pikhq> newsham: Lawyers who hadn't heard of the Betamax case?
22:22:59 <newsham> vorpal: overplay.net's smartdns proxy (they also have traditional proxy, i dont use that though)
22:23:11 <Vorpal> newsham, what is the difference?
22:23:25 <newsham> pikhq: no, even lawyers who have heard of the case. the great thing about being a lawyer is that you dont have to agree with precedence or reality if your client doesnt want you to
22:23:52 <newsham> vorpal: for smartdns you just configure your dns to point to them, they give back responses for certain sites that direct you through some auto-proxies of theirs
22:24:04 <newsham> you never run a traditional vpn program on your host
22:24:09 <pikhq> Ah, right, you don't get auto-disbarred for giving advice that is the exact opposite of what precedent and law explicitly says.
22:24:29 <pikhq> Clearly a lawyer can just say "Sure, you can murder all who stand in your way".
22:24:43 <Vorpal> newsham, what about the traditonal proxy then? I assume that is a third option to the VPN
22:25:04 <newsham> pikhq: if all lawyers were required to agree with all case law there would never be any challenges to case law
22:25:04 <Vorpal> because I only see smartdns and vpn on their site
22:25:24 <Taneb> pikhq, well you CAN murder all who stand in your way.
22:25:25 <newsham> vorpal: I use smartdns. i dont use vpn.
22:25:33 <Taneb> Just you might get in a little trouble for it.
22:25:43 <newsham> pikhq: i'm sure blackwater lawyers have given out advice along those lines in the past
22:25:48 <Vorpal> newsham, right, but there was also traditonal proxy you said, I assume a normal HTTP proxy?
22:26:01 <newsham> oh, i meant traditional vpn, sorry
22:26:37 <Vorpal> newsham, what is their logging policy?
22:26:43 <newsham> dont know.. i never asked.
22:26:44 <pikhq> newsham: Note that this is a supreme court finding. Without changes in law there literally can't be challenges... By which I mean "in US legal practice, if the Supreme Court said pi was three, pi is three."
22:27:04 <newsham> vorpal: there are dozens of proxy and vpn vendors.. shop around, i'm sure some talk about logging policies
22:27:30 <newsham> pikhq: can they get disbarred for disagreeing with a supreme court hearing when talking to the press?
22:27:36 <Vorpal> right, if you just want a solid, fast and reasonably priced VPN provider in Europe I would recommend https://www.ipredator.se/
22:27:47 <newsham> that is more or less the context i was talking about.. industry people telling the press that something was illegal despite case law
22:27:49 <pikhq> No. Getting disbarred is ludicrously difficult.
22:28:10 <pikhq> You'd basically have to shit on a judge.
22:29:15 <newsham> and the judge has to disapprove
22:29:36 <int-e> Taneb: hmm, there are two zombie processes, I wonder if they have anything to do with it.
22:30:16 <Vorpal> The only issues I had with that VPN provider have turned out to be on my end. I have a non-trivial setup where only a specific user account is routed through the VPN. This is a mess of iptables and multiple routing tables to achieve.
22:30:23 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb).
22:30:36 <Vorpal> I discovered I have a race condition at boot in that setup that I haven't managed to solve
22:30:46 <pikhq> Getting disbarred also only applies to a given state... You can then go out and have a law license elsewhere.
22:31:16 <newsham> if prenda lawyers cant get disbarred, nobody can
22:31:32 <int-e> Taneb: apparently, so restarting it helped. hmm.
22:31:32 <pikhq> Also, you tend to only get disbarred by your state's bar association. i.e. an association of lawyers.
22:31:52 <int-e> (will have helped, once it's back in all channels)
22:32:22 <pikhq> Which is to say that it's about as hard to get disbarred as it is for a police officer to get charged with a crime.
22:33:50 <Taneb> I wonder if anyone's found an actual use for my groups Haskell library
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22:35:21 <Bike> unfortunately my current favorite supreme court ridiculousness is a consequence of facts, not pseudofact itself
22:37:17 <Vorpal> hey I found my POSIX cat in befunge again
22:37:22 <Vorpal> I should put that up somewhere
22:37:38 <pikhq> Does it handle the semantics of -u?
22:37:52 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: do you remember the Myriad Genetics case
22:38:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, alas it is documented to the effect of tt being impossible in befunge-98
22:38:16 <Vorpal> pikhq, I don't even remember what -u does
22:38:35 <Vorpal> pikhq, Yeah you can't do that from inside befunge
22:38:41 <pikhq> i.e. no FILE* junk.
22:38:45 <pikhq> read()'s fine though.
22:38:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, why does gnu cat ignore it though
22:38:52 <Bike> The conclusion was "you can't patent DNA, but you can patent cDNA"
22:38:59 <Vorpal> pikhq, you can turn off buffering on FILE*
22:39:00 <pikhq> GNU cat uses unbuffered IO unconditionally.
22:39:11 <int-e> @run 619710.906128/86400
22:39:20 <Vorpal> pikhq, that seems inefficient
22:39:21 <Bike> which is a bit like saying you can't patent some text, but you can patent some text that you produced by copying the text you can't patent verbatim
22:39:50 <pikhq> Not really. It just passes read() a large integer, and then write()s the results of that out.
22:39:53 <Bike> supreme court can't into molecular biology
22:39:56 <Vorpal> Known bugs and limitations:
22:39:56 <Vorpal> * Due to Befunge-98's command line argument handling, double null string
22:39:56 <Vorpal> parameters will be treated as end of command line.
22:39:56 <Vorpal> * Due to Befunge-98's standard IO limitations it is impossible to implement -u.
22:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> is cdna actually distinguishable from dna, physically?
22:40:33 <pikhq> Fairly efficient in general, though it'll be fairly inefficient if the source is something crazy that only ever writes, say, 1 byte at a time.
22:40:44 <pikhq> (which is to say, "hardly anything")
22:40:57 <Vorpal> pikhq, maybe some sort of character device?
22:41:01 <Bike> well cDNA is isolated bits rather than the whole genome
22:41:13 <pikhq> Vorpal: Not generally.
22:41:27 <pikhq> The read() call will get the contents of the kernel char device buffer. :)
22:41:41 <Bike> i'm not just not sure, practically speaking, what patenting cDNA would mean
22:41:54 <Vorpal> pikhq, it is way too sparse befunge code btw, much too readable
22:42:13 <Phantom_Hoover> Bike, and so what, because you need to use the cDNA version of a gene to do anything meaningful with it, the patent functionally covers all uses of that gene?
22:42:16 <Bike> you're not patenting the process to make cDNA, so anybody can do it, and you're not patenting the genetic information or transcription characteristics, which are not synthetic
22:42:20 <pikhq> Also, "inefficient" here means "practical IO speed of, like, 15 MB/s"
22:42:38 <Vorpal> pikhq, Also GPL3 for some reason, though I'll probably relicense it to some "do whatever, but credit me" deal
22:42:57 <Bike> Phantom_Hoover: i don't even know. the decision's stated idea was that it's because cDNA is synthetic
22:43:02 <pikhq> Which is also what you're bounded by anyways, because that's the speed of your source.
22:43:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, I have used I/O devices much faster than that
22:43:26 <Vorpal> pikhq, wasn't on a commonly available system though
22:43:57 <pikhq> Note that 1-char-at-a-time means that cat is reading from a device about that slow, meaning that it's... not exactly an issue that cat's also being slow.
22:44:14 <pikhq> So, there's no particular reason to *not* just use unbuffered IO.
22:44:17 <Bike> "This is a bit like taking a copyrighted photograph, cutting several chunks out of the middle, and calling the result a new product that is eligible for copyright." says a geneticist, since i'm not one
22:44:40 <int-e> Taneb: great, so now I can try to puzzle out why lambdabot would leave zombies behind, and how they affect @run. (by "lambdabot breaks" you did mean that @run produced (almost?) only timeouts, right?)
22:44:46 <Bike> (the comparison is a bit interesting since i'm pretty sure if you were creative enough about your cutting that would actually be copyrightable)
22:44:52 <Vorpal> pikhq, Anyway http://sprunge.us/RQIT
22:45:04 <Vorpal> pikhq, that is pretty terrible befunge-98 code
22:45:42 <Bike> also cDNA is produced in the first place with reverse transcriptase, which is natural, just not naturally applied to human mRNA
22:46:13 <Bike> i'm almost kind of glad scalia had the guts to say "ok i don't know any of this science stuff" in his opinion
22:47:56 <Vorpal> <Bike> (the comparison is a bit interesting since i'm pretty sure if you were creative enough about your cutting that would actually be copyrightable) <-- yes I think the technical term is "transformative work"
22:48:50 <Taneb> Man, why does the UK pretend it isn't European
22:49:18 <Bike> Vorpal: big fan of lhooq personally
22:49:31 <Vorpal> Bike, not sure what that is
22:49:45 <Bike> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Marcel_Duchamp_Mona_Lisa_LHOOQ.jpg
22:50:37 <Vorpal> Bike, yes, that is possibly transformative
22:50:59 <int-e> Taneb: I know this is comedy, but have a look at the first quote here: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Yes,_Minister#Episode_Five:_The_Writing_on_the_Wall
22:53:16 <Bike> it's used as an example of derivative work, i think
22:53:32 <Bike> presumably the main recontextualization is that lhooq is half-french for "her ass is hot"
23:08:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ print ("http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/" + \ urllib.quote(sys.argv[1]))
23:08:32 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/url
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23:30:01 <fizzie> The diameter of the wiki is 14 nodes; there are 24 pairs of pages that need 13 hops to navigate between them: http://sprunge.us/NHaM
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23:30:44 <fizzie> (Of course there are several pairs of pages where you "can't get there from here", as they say, but ignoring those.)
23:31:05 <Bike> how big's the second-largest connected component?
23:31:15 <Bike> well, rather, how many pages are there not in the largest connected
23:32:03 <fizzie> Weakly or strongly connected?
23:32:48 <Bike> oh right digraph. uhhhh how about both
23:33:14 <fizzie> There are 1692 pages in the largest weakly connected component, and 89 pages in others, the largest of which has three (3) pages.
23:33:26 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/paste
23:34:16 <fizzie> There are 1303 pages in the largest strongly connected component, and (obviously) 478 pages in others, the lergest of which have two (2) pages. (There are four such components.)
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23:34:57 <boily> oerjan: hellœrjan. thanks for reminding me I need to update the PDF when I get home.
23:35:15 <fizzie> For the records, the non-singular strongly connected components are {"SELECT.", "SELECT./Hello World"}, {"Preposterous Programming", "Preposterous Programming Language"}, {"Postfix notation", "Prefix notation"} and {"Esolang:Community portal", "The Esoteric File Archive"}.
23:36:18 <fizzie> And the single weakly connected component of three pages is {"Chalcraft-Green train track automaton", "Chalcraft-Greene train track automaton", "ChalcraftGreen"} but that's p. boring since two of those are just redirect pages, which this script interprets as pages with a single link to the redirect target.
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23:40:09 <oerjan> `run echo test 1&>2 2&>1
23:40:26 <oerjan> maybe i should look up the syntax.
23:40:41 <fizzie> It's 1>&2 if you want fd 1 to go where fd 2 is currently going.
23:41:36 -!- nooodl has quit (Quit: Ik ga weg).
23:42:35 <fizzie> (So ... >foo 2>&1 puts both stdout and stderr to file foo, while ... 2>&1 >foo puts only stdout to foo, and stderr to where stdout used to go.)
23:43:32 <fizzie> `run rm 1 2 # let's keep things tidy here
23:46:26 <pikhq> And 2>&3 1>&2 3>&1 3>&- ;# swaps stdout and stderr.
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23:48:47 <pikhq> Though also clobbers fd 3 if that happens to be open.
23:48:51 <Bike> now do a xor swap
23:50:19 <fizzie> pikhq: Don't you mean 3>&2 2>&1 1>&3 3>&- instead? At least empirically speaking that seems to work, while the former doesn't.
23:50:20 <oerjan> `fetch http://oerjan.nvg.org/url
23:50:26 <pikhq> Sorry, yes, you are correct.
23:50:26 <HackEgo> 2014-04-19 23:50:24 URL:http://oerjan.nvg.org/url [364/364] -> "url" [1]
23:50:38 <oerjan> `run chmod +x url; mv url bin
23:50:40 <pikhq> I don't tend to futz with fd redirects that much.
23:50:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/test
23:50:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/test
23:51:18 <HackEgo> File is outside hg repository
23:51:20 <fizzie> It's arguably kind of confusing that A>&B does essentially a dup2 of B into fd A.
23:51:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/url
23:51:45 <oerjan> the test may not be perfect
23:51:53 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
23:52:16 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/repository/repository./' bin/url
23:52:28 <pikhq> So, `url definitely doesn't handle '//' nicely.
23:52:46 <pikhq> Admittedly, '//' is approx. utterly insane.
23:53:02 <pikhq> (it is implementation-defined whether or not it is the root directory)
23:53:16 <oerjan> pikhq: um what do you mean, that is _not_ in the repository.
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23:53:29 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, but //hackenv/x would be.
23:53:40 <HackEgo> File is outside hg repository.
23:53:52 <pikhq> `url //hackenv/test
23:53:52 <HackEgo> File is outside hg repository.
23:54:51 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e 's|^/hack|^/+hack|' bin/url
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23:54:58 <HackEgo> File is outside hg repository.
23:55:30 <pikhq> "As a special case, in the root directory, dot-dot may refer to the root directory itself."
23:55:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/test
23:56:08 <fizzie> Yes, though sneakily in a query.
23:57:13 <oerjan> well that still doesn't handle .. etc.
23:57:50 <fizzie> os.path.abspath could probably do it, but really...