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00:13:30 <Taneb> Can we start having a stricter policy against that sort of thing?
00:14:17 <fowl> offensive jokes must be this funny |-----------------| to share
00:14:22 <oerjan> i don't remember how it went back then
00:15:04 <kmc> at present I'm not able to enforce such a policy, for personal / psychological reasons
00:15:16 <kmc> if other ops wish to do so then it is fine with me
00:15:25 <kmc> basically I feel like I will be part of the problem no matter what I do :/
00:16:57 <kmc> but I think it's probably bad to have a policy that some ops can't enforce
00:16:57 <oerjan> i don't even remember why it wasn't enforced back then.
00:17:39 <kmc> me, I just said
00:17:41 <oerjan> quintopia: PAY ATTENTION
00:17:49 <zzo38> I don't care and I think if those people leave due to such thing they are probably their own fault, although also whoever wrote such thing should be careful too (in order to avoid such thing), even if you have free speech too.
00:18:22 <quintopia> kmc: i don't understand why you couldn't enforce it
00:18:57 <oerjan> wait was it quintopia who started it back then
00:19:14 <zzo38> Maybe you disagree how funny/offensive they are? It can be possible
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00:19:26 <quintopia> depending on what you mean VERY PROBABLY
00:19:54 <kmc> quintopia: because these days whenever I think about social justice things it triggers intense depressive symptoms
00:20:13 <kmc> i'm really sad and bitter about all of it
00:20:37 <oerjan> zzo38: there are people who cannot emotionally handle these kind of jokes, due to past trauma or whatever.
00:20:44 <kmc> about people being sexist/racist/homophobic assholes, about the psychological warfare tactics of the people who fight them online, about my own role in systems of oppression
00:21:29 <oerjan> darn now i have to stop reading you before i get depressive symptoms
00:21:52 <kmc> it's a war fought by dehumanization and by attacking the idea of empathy
00:23:01 <kmc> this is also why i really really need to stop using twitter
00:23:13 <quintopia> so let's make dehumanization and attacking the idea of empathy the bannable offence. also, triggering despressive symptoms.
00:23:30 <oerjan> which reminds me of the recent goodmath post http://www.goodmath.org/blog/2014/05/11/depression-and-arrogant-assholes/
00:23:47 <oerjan> (he's also posted about sexism previously iirc)
00:24:00 <Taneb> Can someone remind me who's an op in here?
00:24:57 <Bike> alas, i am not authorized to ask chanserv
00:25:27 <zzo38> oerjan: I know, that some people don't handle this kind of jokes. That isn't your fault, but those people who don't handle it, should have the right to complain
00:25:42 <oerjan> Taneb: me, fizzie, ais523, kmc and elliott are the active ones
00:25:49 <zzo38> quintopia: But maybe some people are depressed of strange thing
00:25:58 <Taneb> oerjan, OK, thanks
00:26:19 <oerjan> Bike: wait you aren't?
00:26:30 <Bike> /msg chanserv flags #esoteric
00:26:35 <oerjan> or are you just being sarcastic
00:26:48 <Bike> You are not authorized to perform this operation.
00:27:06 <zzo38> And, you should need argument of absolutely everything anyways, including (but not limited to), dehumanization, empathy, free speech, goodmath post, me, you, etc.
00:27:29 <oerjan> ic. i never noticed that required authorization.
00:27:29 <Bike> i don't know if that's the good way to look shit up though
00:27:49 <Bike> it's so that you can run channels as if you're the KGB i guess
00:28:01 <zzo38> Try CS ACCESS #esoteric LIST that works for me
00:28:21 <Bike> ah, thank you.
00:29:46 <oerjan> that's funny, those give identical results afaict
00:30:01 <Bike> presumably you have privilege
00:31:29 <oerjan> it's just funny that it makes a command require authorization if it gives the same result as an unauthorized one
00:32:16 <oerjan> although i guess it's also possible you _don't_ see the same result as i.
00:32:59 <Taneb> I ought to sleep at some point.
00:34:22 <kmc> "And until then, until then, until they've reason to think I've a shot at redemption, until then, I'm not talking"
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00:38:47 <Taneb> I wish for all of you to find happiness in unlikely places. Goodnight.
00:39:03 <kmc> same to you Taneb
00:39:05 <kmc> good night :)
00:39:53 <fowl> im trying to remember the name of that joke programming language
00:40:28 <fowl> found it https://gitorious.org/c-plus-equality/c-plus-equality/
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00:44:01 <zzo38> I made up a ORD, CHR, ORD_U, CHR_U function to replace the UNICODE and CHAR function in SQL, and I have figured out the followings:
00:44:11 <zzo38> ORD(CHR_U(10000000)) makes 248, ORD_U(CHR_U(10000000)) makes 10000000, ORD_U(CHAR(10000000)) makes 65533, UNICODE(CHAR(10000000)) makes 65533, UNICODE(CHR_U(10000000)) makes 10000000, UNICODE(CHR_U(100000000)) makes 100000000, ORD_U(CHR_U(100000000)) makes 100000000, ORD_U(CHR_U(0)) makes 0, UNICODE(CHR_U(0)) makes 65533, UNICODE(CHAR(0)) makes NULL, ORD_U(CHAR(0)) makes NULL.
00:44:16 <zzo38> ORD_U(CHR_U(64138178286)) makes 64138178286, UNICODE(CHR_U(64138178286)) makes -286331154, UNICODE(CHAR(64138178286)) makes 65533, ORD_U(CHAR(64138178286)) makes 65533, ORD_U(CHAR(99999999999)) makes 65533, and ORD_U(CHR_U(99999999999)) results in an error message.
00:44:21 <zzo38> Is this better or not?
00:45:53 <zzo38> The C+= mentions "Now hosted on Gitorious, as GitHub, BitBucket, and Google all prove to be too misogynistic to support a feminist programming language." I don't think it necessarily means it is misogynistic, but, my own opinion is that you should be allowed to make such program if you want to, whether or not it is feminist or anything else whatever
00:47:37 <fowl> zzo38, there was enough whining that they took it down from github
00:47:53 <Bike> haha seriously
00:49:10 <fowl> zzo38, but, in feminist spirit, they (c+=) have to say that its because those sites are misogynistic
00:49:40 <zzo38> O, OK, yes they can say that if they want
01:01:14 <int-e> sti::cout of_the_following "Hello, feminists!\n". //Frankly I feel that line escape codes could be problematic
01:01:35 <int-e> preceded by: / // "std" is sooooo old-fashioned. we use "sti" nowadays.
01:01:35 <int-e> //cout should be removed immediately as the two letters "co" obviously represent the beginning of a phallus.
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05:24:30 <Jafet> "George Westinghouse promptly bought Tesla's patents, employed Tesla to develop them, and assigned C. F. Scott to help Tesla, Tesla leaving for other pursuits in 1889.[23][30][33][34][35][36][37][37][38][38][39][40] [41][42][43][44]"
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05:25:08 <Bike> "are you sure"
05:28:56 <Sgeo> Ugh, got sunburned. Is a single day of sunburn as bad as a single day of smoking?
05:29:16 <Sgeo> I don't know what my risk is
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05:31:42 <Sgeo> Doesn't seem to be blistering
05:33:43 <Sgeo> Might not be as big an issue as lack of sleep... which is systemic for me, so more comparable to smoking cigarettes regularly
05:40:59 <Sprocklem> Sgeo: But lack of sleep can't cause cancer.
05:41:33 <Sgeo> Can it let a cancer that would otherwise be destroyed be viable? If lack of sleep is bad for immune system...
05:41:36 <coppro> Sgeo: not nearly as bad
05:41:51 <coppro> Sgeo: melanoma is easy to treat if caught early
05:42:50 <coppro> and it's the really dangerous kind of skin cancer
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06:01:24 <Jafet> firefox can render webpages in 3D
06:02:54 <Jafet> https://mdn.mozillademos.org/files/3625/3dview.png
06:03:13 <Jafet> Grab a deck and plug in to cyberspace
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09:05:28 <Taneb> Morning, #esoteric!
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11:36:04 <Jafet> http://blog.coinbase.com/post/85758038492/10-of-free-bitcoin-for-college-students
11:36:27 <HackEgo> boaracoin azumarkcoin bigcoin balackcoin incolcoin dipucoin homeoncoin zetacoin revcoin revillacoin ploycoin pertacoin syllcoin bfficidcoin rockcoin versexumcoin interandrecoin revilcoin eiccancoin singcoin
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12:24:18 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Can it let a cancer that would otherwise be destroyed be viable? If [...] is bad for immune system... <-- YES WORRYING ABOUT THINGS ALL THE TIME PROBABLY CAN DO THAT HTH
12:25:04 <oerjan> (and while i'm joking, i still think it's probably true.)
12:29:26 <oerjan> sadly the top google hit is this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2099567/Hypochondriacs-dont-live-long-research-suggests-persons-outlook-affects-lifespan.html
12:29:41 <oerjan> (sad because it's daily mail)
12:31:52 <oerjan> but good because it refers to an actual study.
12:34:17 <oerjan> (what do you mean it's not that much)
12:40:10 <Taneb> That's like loads compared to me
12:40:15 <mroman> I'd consider my health as "poor" too
12:40:31 <mroman> without reference to how other people's health is
12:40:43 <mroman> compared to other people's health it's probably in the lower normal range :)
12:41:14 <mroman> If your vision has these weird "worm"-like structures in it you'd consider your vision as bad
12:41:28 <mroman> until you notice that lots of other people have it too
12:41:43 <oerjan> mroman: um well if you have them all the time i guess...
12:42:06 <mroman> They don't magially disappear ;)
12:42:44 <oerjan> hm i guess i'm not having them, then. although i've certainly seen occasional things moving in there.
12:43:06 <mroman> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Floaters.png
12:43:13 <mroman> it's just like your nose.
12:43:19 <mroman> Eventually you stop noticing them
12:43:32 <mroman> it also dependents on background color/light
12:43:37 <mroman> but they will always be there
12:43:56 <mroman> and suddenly you notice them again
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12:44:23 <oerjan> well i guess. i've always noticed them better when looking at blue sky.
12:45:07 <oerjan> occasionally one will float into the middle of the eye, but otherwise i don't notice much
12:45:21 <oerjan> *of the field of vision
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12:46:06 <mroman> it's hard counting them though
12:46:06 <oerjan> no more than a handful, at any rate.
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12:50:00 <Taneb> I need to sort out my diet
12:50:15 <mroman> and by health I meant physical health
12:50:26 <mroman> Taneb: You didn't look fat on your talk
12:51:35 <Taneb> Like, since Friday morning all I've ate was a bowl of soup and a chocolate bar
12:52:07 <mroman> sounds about the same amount I drank since last friday :)
12:52:27 <oerjan> are all geeks either too fat or too slim
12:52:50 <Taneb> I don't think any of us pay much attention to what we're eating
12:52:59 <mroman> If you classify me as a geek then no
12:53:09 * oerjan eyes mroman suspiciously
12:53:21 <Taneb> I mean, on Thursday, I had a pub's special burger which is about 8 inches tall
12:54:08 * oerjan sips his perfectly healthy orange juice
12:56:13 <oerjan> if the rest of my meals were as healthy as breakfast, i'd be all set.
12:56:30 <Taneb> oerjan, easy. Only eat breakfast.
12:57:01 <mroman> I used to go rock climbing twice a week
12:57:04 <oerjan> Taneb: but then i get sugar and caffeine withdrawal D:
12:58:35 <oerjan> (curiously, my caffeine drinks are sugar free. i've just slipped on the actual sweets.)
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13:00:06 <Taneb> I've got to have an early night tomorrow.
13:01:14 <mroman> going to sleep early is the most paradoxical thing of things
13:01:20 <oerjan> i cannot do early nights. i just end up not sleeping and lying in bed freezing.
13:01:39 <mroman> you'd think the earlier you go to bed the longer you sleep and the longer you sleep the more fit you'll be in the morning
13:01:42 <oerjan> which is one part of the reason why i have this >24 hour slippage.
13:03:54 <boily> freezing in bed? don't you have, like, bedsheets, covers, linen, woolly stuff to keep you warm?
13:04:55 <Taneb> boily, he's in Norway.
13:04:57 <oerjan> boily: those don't help. in fact i'm likely to spend a while feeling too hot, then suddenly too cold.
13:05:23 <oerjan> my body has strange temperature regulation.
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13:13:04 <metasepia> ENVA 181250Z VRB02KT CAVOK 22/06 Q1014 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 20010KT
13:13:40 <oerjan> i'll have to change to my summer jacket
13:14:41 <metasepia> CYUL 181300Z 25010KT 30SM FEW035 FEW150 10/02 A3020 RMK CU1AC1 CU TR AC TR SLP226
13:14:48 <boily> we live in interesting times...
13:15:07 <boily> oh and btw, we want our warm weather back plzkthx
13:15:27 <boily> you darned scheming evil Norwegian!
13:15:40 <Taneb> I need to get some food, shower, do like loads of laundry...
13:15:49 <Taneb> Get my life together, that kind of thing
13:17:17 <oerjan> no, spammer, i don't get more likely to open your "AWAITING YOUR QUICK RESPONSE" message if you send it 3 times in succession.
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13:29:41 <oerjan> also it wasn't actually all caps, it just felt that way.
13:30:59 <int-e> <Delete> <-- pretty quick if you ask me.
13:31:41 <int-e> I'm getting spam with subjects like "FROM MRS.AWAH SULE"
13:32:04 <int-e> and "UTD Living โรงแรมอพาร์ทเมน"
13:34:54 <Taneb> I feel like going outside and maybe getting food or something
13:35:21 <oerjan> Taneb: an ancient impulse
13:35:43 <Taneb> I don't have a spear, will a pencil do?
13:35:58 <int-e> if it's big enough?
13:36:55 <int-e> 'The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp.'
13:37:22 <Taneb> I here a fire alarm comi... there it is
13:37:59 <oerjan> you can hear them in advance? fancy.
13:39:37 <mroman> when dous haskell get implicit maps
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13:40:33 <mroman> and if a list is provided, it shall map over the list
13:40:57 <mroman> i.e. the operation is applied to every element of the list automatically
13:42:56 * oerjan awaits to see whether main = print $ [x | x <- [1..], x == 0] overflows the stack
13:44:27 <mroman> > [x | x <- [1..], x == 0]
13:44:44 <oerjan> mroman: you can define the instances to make it do that. but it would be confusing to newbies.
13:45:13 <mroman> a Num instance for Num a => [a]?
13:45:47 <oerjan> yes, although for sqrt (which does _not_ take an Int btw) you need Floating or thereabout
13:45:57 <lambdabot> class (Fractional a) => Floating a where
13:45:57 <lambdabot> exp, log, sqrt, sin, cos, tan :: a -> a
13:45:57 <lambdabot> asin, acos, atan, sinh, cosh, tanh, asinh, acosh, atanh :: a -> a
13:46:19 <oerjan> hm no stack overflow yet.
13:46:37 <oerjan> i assume it would have showed up already
13:47:00 <boily> (mana vipers and shock serpents? what has DCSS come to?)
13:47:05 <mroman> not having implicit maps made Burlesque suck a little bit
13:47:16 <mroman> that and having a Pretty type and having no variables
13:47:26 <mroman> I came to the conclusions that purely stack based languages suck
13:49:19 <mroman> every function that takes two arguments should implicitly map or zip over lists
13:49:37 <mroman> i.e [1,2] + 1, 1 + [1,2] and [1,2] + [2,3]
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13:54:13 <Taneb> oerjan, it starts ringing in this part of the building last
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13:56:11 <Taneb> I also went to the little Middle-Eastern/Indian/something supermarket that's like 20 meters down the road and bought something that, accompanied with some bread, would make a nice meal
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14:03:35 <Taneb> Maybe in a bit I'll go down the the co-op and buy some bread
14:07:54 <Taneb> Did I tell you that the other day when I was trying to get hang of Rust (again) I managed to write a non-idempotent "isPrime" function
14:08:22 <oerjan> i am not sure "idempotent" applies to isPrime functions in any case.
14:08:41 <Taneb> Then the word I was thinking about
14:09:15 <oerjan> you mean it broke on a second run?
14:09:37 <oerjan> i guess that's idempotent if you think imperatively.
14:09:41 <Taneb> It did with, say, "15"
14:10:42 <Taneb> I don't think it could produce false negatives, though
14:11:03 <oerjan> oh wait it used a randomized method i assume
14:11:12 <Taneb> Nah, it was just broken
14:11:32 <Taneb> It was using trial division, and caching some of the known primes
14:11:47 <oerjan> known primes such as 51
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14:12:32 <Taneb> It had the invariant that the cache would contain the beginning of the list of primes (that held)
14:13:01 <Taneb> But if the largest known prime was larger than the square root of the number being checked, it would start after that number
14:14:24 <Taneb> The largest known prime is 2. 2*2 = 4 < 15.
14:15:15 <Taneb> Let's check 3. 3*3 = 9 < 15. 2 does not divide 3. Therefore 3 is prime. 3 divides 15. 15 is not prime.
14:15:34 <Taneb> The largest known prime is 3. 3 * 3 = 9 < 15.
14:16:11 <Taneb> Let's check 4. 4*4 = 16 > 15. No more to check. 15 is prime.
14:16:28 <int-e> if 3 were the largest prime then 15 would be prime, so 3 is not the largest prime and we learned nothing about 15.
14:16:30 <oerjan> FreeFull: you don't say
14:16:45 <Taneb> int-e, largest prime I've remembered.
14:16:56 <Taneb> Raspberry Pi Notation?
14:17:11 <int-e> 3 divides 15, so why would 15 be prime?
14:17:19 <impomatic> 15 isn't prime because it's the difference of two squares. Any number that's the difference of two squares isn't prime.
14:17:40 <int-e> impomatic: 3 = 4-11
14:17:41 <Taneb> int-e, because it started checking at 4
14:17:42 <int-e> impomatic: 3 = 4-1
14:17:42 <oerjan> FreeFull: shouldn't poles prefer forwards PN, anyway
14:18:02 <int-e> impomatic: any odd number is the difference of two squares
14:18:03 <Taneb> int-e, because my algorithm was horribly flawed
14:18:50 <impomatic> int-e: Any sufficiently large number that's the difference of two squares isn't prime.
14:19:40 <impomatic> int-e: Any sufficiently large number that's the difference of two non-consecutive squares isn't prime.
14:20:20 <oerjan> hey no fair fixing your statement while we're writing up the counterexample
14:20:56 <int-e> impomatic: and now you can drop "sufficiently large"
14:21:23 <impomatic> int-e: Any number that's the difference of two non-consecutive squares isn't prime.
14:21:35 <int-e> (I could now say that 3 = 2^2 - (-1)^2, but that's just a cheap trick.)
14:21:40 <Taneb> wtf another fire alarm
14:21:56 <impomatic> int-e: Any number that's the difference of two non-consecutive positive squares isn't prime.
14:24:19 <impomatic> int-e: Any number that's the difference of two non-consecutive positive powers isn't prime.
14:26:20 <Taneb> int-e, they're consecutive, and they're different powers
14:28:13 <int-e> > 5^3 - 2^4 -- I was really after the different exponents
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14:30:51 <mroman> then (p - x) mod n == 0?
14:31:35 <int-e> mathematicians define a = b (mod n) if n divides (a-b).
14:34:33 <Jafet> Prime numbers, such as 57
14:34:53 <int-e> The Grothendieck prime?
14:35:40 <int-e> can't blame him much, except for being divisible by 3 and 19 it really does look like a prime number.
14:37:36 <FreeFull> mroman: True for all p , n and x
14:37:49 <mroman> If I know that 3 divides 219, and two divides 220 and 222
14:37:54 <mroman> does that tell me something about 221?
14:38:10 <mroman> except that 3 also divides 222 probably
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14:38:19 <FreeFull> It tells you 3 doesn't divide 221
14:38:20 <int-e> yes, 221 is coprime to 6 then
14:38:55 <mroman> but I guess that has further implications
14:40:44 <int-e> is unicode supposed to make sense?
14:42:07 <int-e> mroman: 221 has a prime factor that's 2 modulo 3.
14:42:51 <int-e> that's true for any n = 2 (mod 3)
14:43:10 <int-e> because with only factors = 1 (mod 3) you cannot get a product = 2 (mod 3).
14:44:26 <mroman> is a*b `mod` n == (a `mod` n) * (b `mod` n)?
14:44:54 <mroman> * ((a `mod` n) * (b `mod` n)) `mod` n?
14:45:22 <mroman> yes to the correction?
14:46:33 <int-e> a = a' (mod n) and b = b' (mod n) imply a*b = a'*b' (mod n)
14:48:33 <int-e> To deal with the `mod` operator mathematically, one can work with the identity (or congruence) a = a `mod` n (mod n) and the fact that a = b (mod n) implues a `mod` n = b `mod` n.
14:49:30 <int-e> then a*b = (a `mod` n) * (b `mod` n) (mod n) and indeed a*b `mod` n = (a `mod` n) * (b `mod` n) `mod` n.
14:53:59 <int-e> ⒪⒣ ⒯⒣⒤⒮ ⒤⒮ ⒫⒠⒭⒡⒠⒞⒯ ⒡⒪⒭ ⒨⒠ (since I like parentheses so much)
14:54:26 <Taneb> `unicode GREEK LETTER CAPITAL THETA
14:54:37 <HackEgo> U+0398 GREEK CAPITAL LETTER THETA \ UTF-8: ce 98 UTF-16BE: 0398 Decimal: Θ \ Θ (θ) \ Lowercase: U+03B8 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+03B8 GREEK SMALL LETTER THETA \ UTF-8: ce b8 UTF-16BE: 03b8 Decimal: θ \ θ (Θ) \ Uppercase: U+0398 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \
14:56:12 <mroman> if I know p `mod` n == 1 and p `mod` (x*n) == -1
14:56:49 <int-e> then n=1 or n = 2.
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14:57:53 <int-e> p `mod` (x*n) `mod` n = p `mod` n, so 1 = -1 (mod n), n divides 2.
14:58:38 <int-e> (hmm. I really dislike the infix operator. When is `mod` ever negative?)
14:59:17 <int-e> so n = 2, and x < 0.
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15:01:21 <FreeFull> That's not like mathematical modular arithmetic
15:02:03 <int-e> it's just an odd choice of representatives
15:03:14 <mroman> what if I know that q `mod` n == -1 with a given n
15:03:15 <Sgeo> Chrome popup blocker: Blocks the tab I meant to open but lets an ad open in a new tab
15:03:16 <Jafet> Did you know that two's complement is just normal Z/2^wZ with the upper half shifted around
15:03:31 <int-e> Ah! I know why Haskell does it that way. It's because a `div` b = floor(a / b), and the remainder has to match that definition ((a `div` n) * n + a `mod` n = a).
15:03:32 <Sgeo> Now wondering if maybe the link was set to the ad and the page I wanted opened via Javascript
15:03:51 <mroman> then I can create the sequence [-1 `mod` n, -1 `mod n` + n, -1 `mod n` + n + n] and so forth
15:04:08 <Jafet> > rem <$> [1,-1] <*> [2,-2]
15:04:30 <int-e> Jafet: of course :)
15:04:49 <mroman> until I would be > sqrt(q)
15:04:53 <Jafet> So there isn't actually a remainder function specified as 0 <= r < |q|
15:05:20 <int-e> And `mod` and `rem` are distinct, `rem` is based on a division that rounds towards infinity.
15:05:31 <int-e> you can use \x y -> x `mod` abs y
15:05:38 <Jafet> I thought rem was underspecified.
15:06:01 <int-e> but that's what I see in practice anyway
15:09:49 <FreeFull> I think mod is defined in terms of rem
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15:12:00 <mroman> http://codepad.org/HMmnOEc2
15:12:15 <mroman> somewhere in that list should be a factor of 589
15:17:23 <mroman> but that only works as it should if there is a q `mod` n == -1
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15:17:30 <mroman> otherwise it fails horribly
15:18:13 <int-e> s p b = maximumBy (comparing snd) $ [(p `mod` n, n)|n <- [2..b]] <-- always picks the last element of the list
15:18:21 <int-e> I have no clue what you're doing there.
15:20:05 <int-e> other ideas: cycle [x] == repeat x; zipWith (*) [0..] (repeat x) == map (*x) [0..]; map (+ y) $ map (* x) [0..] == iterate (+ x) y.
15:20:54 <oerjan> Jafet: both rem and mod are well defined in haskell, to match with quot and div respectively.
15:21:35 <oerjan> but div/mod happen to do what mathematicians prefer, and quot/rem what x86 does.
15:22:32 <mroman> that explains why it wasn't working :)
15:22:54 <int-e> "‘quot‘ is integer division truncated toward zero, while the result of ‘div‘ is truncated toward negative infinity."
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15:24:59 <oerjan> mroman: btw when you write fst (s p b) and snd (s p b) it is entirely possible that s p b is evaluated twice.
15:27:36 <mroman> You really have to search until you find a q `mod` n = -1
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15:30:02 <int-e> are you trying to generalise the trick with the prime factor = 2 (mod 3)? If so, that really only works modulo 3 and modulo 4, because then there are only two coprime residues.
15:31:53 <mroman> int-e: yeah. Trying to
15:33:28 <mroman> the other assumption was that
15:33:34 <mroman> if (a*b) `mod` 18 == x
15:33:45 <mroman> then a `mod` 18 == x OR b `mod` 18 == x
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15:34:40 <mroman> it only holds for (a mod n * b mod n) mod n == ....
15:35:24 <mroman> assuming you know that (a*b) `mod` 18 is 17
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15:35:40 <mroman> then (a `mod` 18) * (b `mod` 18) must be 17 too
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15:36:37 <int-e> (a `mod` 18) * (b `mod` 18) `mod` 18
15:37:15 <mroman> which means possible combinations are 5,7 and 13*11
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15:38:10 <mroman> so a `mod` 18 == 11, b `mod` 18 == 13
15:38:18 <mroman> that looks something that could be solved by that chinese thing
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15:39:09 <oerjan> that's splitting up 18
15:39:30 <int-e> [(a,b) | a <- [5,11,17], b <- [1,7,13], a*b `mod` 18 == 17]
15:39:32 <int-e> > [(a,b) | a <- [5,11,17], b <- [1,7,13], a*b `mod` 18 == 17]
15:40:14 <oerjan> the 2 part says that a*b must be odd, which you know how to handle
15:40:35 <oerjan> the 9 part says that a*b `mod` 9 == 8
15:40:40 <int-e> (you can solve it modulo 2: 1*1 = 1; modulo 3: 2*1 = 2, use the CRT to combine them into solutions modulo 6, then extend to modulo 18)
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15:41:05 <oerjan> wait what's the extend part.
15:41:26 <int-e> oerjan: just brute force in my paste for lambdabot
15:41:37 <mroman> my other idea was to calculate enough module stuff until you have enough information to reasonably brute-force the factors
15:42:08 <mroman> i.e by knowing that it's 17 `mod` 18 you can brute-force eather 7,5 or 13,11
15:43:19 <int-e> oerjan: anyway it's a fairly standard approach for solving (polynomial) equations modulo prime powers p^k: first find solutions modulo p, then take each solution and figure out what its counterparts are modulo p^2, p^3, etc; if you're lucky then there will be only one in each case.
15:43:34 <mroman> if q = a*b then either a is 7 mod 18 and b is 5 mod 18 or it's 13,11
15:43:52 <int-e> oerjan: but I don't know what it's called, "extend" may not be the right term.
15:44:02 <mroman> it's probably faster than O(sqrt(N))
15:44:09 <mroman> but it doesn't beat the quadratic sieve
15:44:15 <mroman> which is afaik sqrt . sqrt N
15:44:40 <oerjan> in any case, point here is 17 is invertible (mod 18) so there will be a solution for each value < 18 and relatively prime to it
15:45:35 <oerjan> to calculate division (mod n), you use the extended euclidean algorithm
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15:52:45 <impomatic> Al's latest programming contest has been announced http://azspcs.net/Contest/AlphabetCity
15:52:53 <impomatic> I don't think I'll be entering this one...
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16:01:04 <Jafet> There are two algorithms of estimated complexity O(sqrt(sqrt N)) and neither is the quadratic sieve, which is in a different class entirely
16:04:15 <int-e> hmm. which is the second one, besides Pollard's rho method?
16:06:07 -!- tromp has joined.
16:08:36 <Jafet> Shanks used quadratic forms
16:10:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:10:59 <Jafet> Nobody knows about it because it is terribly documented and based on class field theory
16:30:43 -!- ^v has joined.
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16:32:19 <kmc> fizzie, ais523_, elliott: I'm stepping down as an #esoteric op and have removed myself from the ChanServ flags
16:32:52 <ais523_> kmc: I actually didn't realise you were an op
16:32:57 -!- kmc has left.
16:33:20 <ais523_> I guess kmc's quitting the channel altogether
16:33:44 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
16:34:25 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
16:36:07 <Jafet> The keegan has ODed on personal crisis
16:37:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39557&oldid=39518 * Keymaker * (+399) A Turing-complete program in 135 instructions.
16:37:41 <boily> time to go fetch something to eat. I bet my Canadian 1 cent collection that he'll be back in the next hour.
16:37:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: Poulet!).
16:38:07 <ais523_> not really, I quit this channel for ages because it was usually offtopic
16:38:15 <ais523_> although the offtopicness has got less annoying recently
16:38:18 <Jafet> The chicken crossed the road to get away from boily.
16:38:26 <ais523_> a co-op is someone who works alongside the ops, I guess?
16:38:37 <Taneb> Nah, it's the categorical dual of an op
16:38:46 <Jafet> A co-op is the person who gets kicked
16:52:48 * int-e is worried about cowriters
17:00:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:03:52 <Jafet> This also explains why coworkers are usually unproductive.
17:08:55 -!- edwardk has joined.
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17:13:59 <mroman> @oeis 1, 1, 3, 2, 5, 4
17:14:05 <lambdabot> n - d(n), where d(n) is the number of divisors of n (A000005).[0,0,1,1,3,2,5...
17:14:28 <mroman> that doesn't seem right.
17:15:01 -!- edwardk has joined.
17:15:05 <mroman> It's the number of non-divisors of n
17:17:04 <mroman> oh. that's supposed to be a subtraction
17:17:33 <int-e> sorry. what else would it be?
17:18:08 <mroman> I didn't read that as a subtraction
17:18:24 <mroman> Why would I've ben confused then
17:19:10 <Jafet> We have progressed beyond subtractive thinking
17:23:03 <impomatic> I've been stung. By a bee. On the nose ffs.
17:25:29 <mroman> Thanks to some study I could now look up how much that approx. hurts
17:26:03 <mroman> Is it abovu staplering yourself with an office stapler?
17:28:11 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
17:29:51 -!- edwardk has quit (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.).
17:36:27 <impomatic> It's above stapling myself. I was standing perfectly still waiting for it to fly off and it stung me anyway.
17:44:17 -!- boily has joined.
17:48:44 <mroman> they don't fly off once the have the intention to possibly kill you
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18:24:57 <ion> Free gaem http://store.steampowered.com/app/65790/
18:25:52 <fowl> oo and its from 2001 so i can probably run it on my laptop
18:30:08 <maurer> ion: how did you detect its freeness?
18:34:50 <ion> maurer: Exactly the same way you did.
18:48:48 <boily> welp. I launched minecraft again, after many months clean.
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19:05:28 <Taneb> If I had this for dinner every day...
19:06:27 <Taneb> Ready meal £1.89 a day. Bread £1.19 every two days. If I managed breakfast, too, £1.29 for milk every 2 days, £2 for cereal every 5
19:06:47 <Taneb> > 1.89 + (1.19/2) + (1.29/2) + (2/5)
19:06:57 <Taneb> That's... really affordable
19:08:06 <boily> you can throw in veggies and tofu and yogurt!
19:08:25 <Taneb> boily, I think adding some form of meat would be a good first priority
19:08:39 <impomatic> I'm getting a pet skunk. They eat bees.
19:12:07 <Taneb> But so's this Indian ready-meal
19:12:16 <Taneb> And Co-op half-baked bread
19:15:28 <ais523_> eating the same food /every/ day is probably a bad idea
19:16:58 <Taneb> ais523_, yes, I'm not actually going to do this.
19:17:28 <Taneb> Just it's a lot healthier than what I've been eating recently, ie, next to nothing
19:17:35 <coppro> I'm familiar with that diet
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19:21:01 -!- nucular has quit (Quit: Excess Food).
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19:26:14 <pikhq> Eating the same food every day is how you turn into Sgeo.
19:26:58 <Sgeo> What, is turning into me the culmination of people's nightmares?
19:27:19 <Taneb> Sgeo, no, I'd just rather stay as me
19:27:37 <Taneb> Other than my diet and disorganized state, I like being me
19:28:06 * impomatic used to only eat food I'd gathered / caught
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19:49:42 <Sgeo> Apparently Flash animations can get Wikipedia articles
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19:53:45 <impomatic> Is a Flash animation more notable than an esolang?
19:54:02 <ais523_> I remember the great esolang purge from Wikipedia
19:54:04 <ais523_> where most of them were deleted
19:54:12 <ais523_> and I agreed with it, although there were some I argued to keep
19:54:34 <MDude> I guess one good be.
19:55:30 <kmc> I didn't mean to suggest that I was leaving the channel forever
19:55:34 <kmc> I just wanted a break
19:55:35 <impomatic> Even some regular programming languages have been wiped from Wikipedia.
19:55:46 <kmc> but I can't be an op anymore, as I am not well enough to perform the duties of the job
19:55:58 <MDude> An animation can easily be a widely ntoed cultural reference pount.
19:56:34 <impomatic> No-one added citations, so the languages were deemed to be non-notable.
19:56:37 <MDude> Whereas programming lanugages in general remain a mystery to most people.
19:58:36 <MDude> Another thing is that a lot of material on esolangs can be considered original research, whcih isn't allowed on Wikipedia.
20:02:03 <mroman> they only allow research that has been copied?
20:03:46 <ais523_> mroman: yeah, Wikipedia only allows secondary sources
20:04:06 <ais523_> and if they enforced that policy rather than screwing around with notability, then their rules would both be more objective and better, IMO
20:04:11 <mroman> so... how do they choose which esolangs to mention as examples?
20:04:22 <mroman> germane Wikipedia lists Loopy
20:04:27 <mroman> i've never heard of Loopy
20:04:37 <ais523_> mroman: there's no "they" about it, anyone can edit an example in
20:04:51 <ais523_> and there's no real team of people dedicated to taking the dubious examples back out
20:05:23 <mroman> there seem to be a lot of languages by Sean Heber listed
20:05:44 <ais523_> check the page history, see if he put them there
20:06:02 <mroman> Cow, Taxi, Whirl, 3Code
20:06:05 <MDude> They apparently also allow citing primary sources.
20:06:30 <MDude> They seem to mostly want to avoid anything being original to Wikipedia.
20:06:50 <MDude> Which makes sense, as Encyclopedias are for compiling information, not creating it.
20:08:04 <MDude> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research
20:08:11 <mroman> "Interessant an Ook! ist, dass es formal gesehen identisch mit Brainfuck ist."
20:08:17 <mroman> I don't find that interesting at all
20:08:31 <mroman> if anything Ook! is a different encoding for brainfuck programs
20:09:37 <mroman> (German WP says that the interesting part about Ook! is, that it is "formally identical" to brainfuck)
20:10:15 <mroman> ais523_: I don't edit WP articles about esolangs because I'm pretty sure I'm biased in some way :D
20:10:18 <olsner> suppose it's true in the sense that every other thing about ook is less interesting
20:10:52 <mroman> i.e. I don't like Ook! bit
20:10:57 <ais523_> Ook! is interesting in that it predates the flood of BF derivatives
20:11:04 <ais523_> I think it actually invented the class of BF equivalents
20:11:18 <ais523_> so it was interesting at the time, even if it's now been shown to belong to a particularly boring class of languages
20:11:33 <mroman> and I don't see what the fuzz about HQ9+ is
20:12:00 <MDude> It does have a fun name.
20:12:09 <ais523_> HQ9+ is a counterexample to a bunch of statements about esolangs
20:12:29 -!- nooodl_ has changed nick to nooodl.
20:12:31 <mroman> special, but the language itself is boring
20:12:39 <mroman> the idea is special, I can admit to that
20:12:46 <ais523_> that's what esolangs are for me, the idea
20:12:51 <ais523_> the language serves only as a way to express it
20:13:32 <mroman> I tend to value both I guess :)
20:15:24 <mroman> at first I triet to create esolangs that were as odd as I could imagine
20:16:28 <mroman> now I create languages to do homework and some other projects to try to find stuff that could be done better than current languages do
20:17:39 <mroman> That's why Burlesque has statistics stuff :D
20:18:21 <MDude> I should actually make stuff.
20:19:05 <mroman> I usually astonished when I look through the language reference to see how many built-ins it actually has
20:19:15 <mroman> and then how many built-ins I still miss
20:19:25 <mroman> it doesn't have a built-in to tell if a list has no duplicates
20:20:52 <mroman> it's the same as Brainfuck
20:21:06 <mroman> and there you have another brainfuck derivative .
20:21:29 <mroman> what'd be much more interesting
20:21:38 <mroman> a language that works with private public key
20:21:48 <MDude> Brainfuck 86: Like Bainfuck 13, but all the numerals are replaced with 9-n.
20:21:51 <mroman> only the creator of the language can actually write programs
20:22:01 <mroman> but everyone can interpret them
20:23:04 <nortti> quite a lot of my languages are something I scribbled into my math notebook
20:23:57 <MDude> I know that Spider's Square program i ahve in my userspace doesn't actually do what I wanted.
20:24:23 <MDude> Since there's no upper limit to the number of stands.
20:25:00 <MDude> I'll have to make a language where the data is just two points on a grid, and you compare thier relative positions or something.
20:25:40 <MDude> That way any program state can be represented as a fixed number of floating point numbers.
20:27:54 <ais523_> there's some uncertainty as to whether that's TC with two variables
20:28:01 <ais523_> and that's one point on the grid, plus the origin
20:28:10 <ais523_> however, floating point won't do without infinite precison
20:28:21 <ais523_> if you mean real numbers, say so
20:28:24 <MDude> Maybe not relative, then.
20:28:28 <ais523_> floating point is limited to a fixed number of significant figures
20:29:03 <MDude> They're to be treated in theory as real, but floats are the reccomended implementation.
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20:29:35 <MDude> Just because I wanted a model of memory that would handle out-of-memory errors differently.
20:29:58 <MDude> Instead of running out of space, it runs out of resolution.
20:30:10 -!- mhi^ has joined.
20:33:22 <MDude> You could optionally implement it in some way that offloads memory onto some sort of analog storage.
20:35:21 <ais523_> Perl actually has a warning for if you do ++ on a float and it doesn't change value
20:39:14 <MDude> I was going to try to make sure there was some upper limit to their values, possibly 1, with it being more about manipulating the trailing digits.
20:44:39 <elliott> MDude: and you'd e.g. store two reals by using an R^2 <-> R bijection, and so on, to build up data structures?
20:45:01 <elliott> it'd be cute to see how the choice of bijection interacts with fp inaccuracy
20:45:13 <impomatic> Does the language of Tierra count as esoteric?
20:45:44 <ais523_> are there any R^2 <-> R bijections that aren't horrendously discontinuous?
20:48:26 <nooodl> depends on "horrendously"
20:48:34 <MDude> I think so? I wasn't entirely sure how date structures would work.
20:48:35 <shachaf> Is horrendouly discontinuous different from discontinuous?
20:49:15 <impomatic> The language was designed for writing self-replicating programs which wouldn't break too badly when subjected to random mutations. Jumps are to a template, not an exact location.
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21:03:29 <oerjan> boily: so do you actually have any canadian 1 cents
21:04:28 <oerjan> kmc: you know, not all ops need to be competent at everything. or else i couldn't be one either.
21:04:52 <oerjan> but it's your choice, anyway.
21:12:52 * impomatic ponders the identity of Ray's mysterious Go teacher.
21:13:11 <oerjan> probably some google employee.
21:15:13 <impomatic> I'll add the Tierra language to the wiki (at some point). At the moment I'm not even sure it's got a name.
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21:15:44 <kmc> oerjan: I think I would get in the way of other people being competent
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21:16:35 <Phantom_Hoover> 20:45:44: <ais523_> are there any R^2 <-> R bijections that aren't horrendously discontinuous?
21:17:01 <Phantom_Hoover> well that's the point of the hilbert curve, though it's still very discontinuous
21:18:16 <Phantom_Hoover> (you can't have a continuous bijection of course because that would make the two spaces homeomorphic)
21:22:02 <oerjan> that's not a bijection though, only an onto map, although it may have bounded number of inverse images?
21:25:25 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: there are some spaces that have continuous bijections in at least one direction without being homeomorphic. i assume R^2 <-> R are not among them. hm i wonder if you can have bijections both ways (not inverses of each other, of course)
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21:25:50 <oerjan> R^2 -> R is impossible due to invariance of domain theorem
21:27:33 * elliott wonders about a way to "approximate" a [0,1] -> {0,1} function (like floats are an approximation of R)
21:28:20 <oerjan> R -> R^2 i am not immediately sure why it is impossible
21:35:59 <nooodl> oerjan: i'm sure a surjection is possible
21:36:08 <nooodl> http://math.stackexchange.com/a/358061/141424 mhm
21:39:05 <oerjan> nooodl: i'm speaking about bijections
21:39:28 <oerjan> boily: you'll be happy no one bet agaist, then.
21:41:26 <nooodl> isn't "a bijection A -> B" the same thing as "a bijection B -> A" when you just consider the inverses
21:41:57 <nooodl> i mean you're just talking about one-to-one correspondences between these two sets right!
21:43:24 <oerjan> nooodl: continuous in one direction only
21:48:08 <boily> ow. ooooooow. IT BUUUURNS!
21:48:19 <boily> (yes, I bit in a particularly powerful hot pepper.)
21:50:03 <oerjan> the revenge of the chickens
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22:17:27 <oerjan> > let (!x, y) = (undefined, "hm") in y
22:18:02 <olsner> > let ~(!x, y) = (undefined, "hm") in y
22:18:55 <oerjan> > let (~(!x,y), z) = ((undefined, "hm"), "oh") in z
22:19:16 <oerjan> > let ((!x,y), z) = ((undefined, "hm"), "oh") in z
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22:27:35 <metasepia> CYUL 182200Z 25012KT 30SM FEW050 FEW240 16/M01 A3012 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CI TR SLP202
22:29:06 <boily> un bon dimanche à toi aussi!
22:30:04 <quintopia> this rainy cloudy day suddenly cleared up and now it's gorgeous and sunny
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22:31:39 <metasepia> KATL 182152Z 00000KT 10SM -RA SCT004 BKN090 BKN130 OVC200 16/14 A3020 RMK AO2 RAE16B38 SLP226 P0001 T01610144
22:31:57 <boily> yours is quite more humid than mine.
22:32:50 <quintopia> i think it may be raining still in atlanta
22:33:33 <metasepia> KGVT 182215Z AUTO 16008KT 10SM CLR 26/14 A3003 RMK AO2
22:36:20 <metasepia> KVUO 182153Z AUTO 15003KT 10SM -RA BKN075 OVC090 14/10 A2989 RMK AO2 RAE11B40 SLP123 P0001 T01390100
22:37:55 <metasepia> LOWI 182220Z AUTO VRB03KT 9999 FEW070 SCT100 13/10 Q1013
22:39:07 <boily> quintopia: you're in Greenville now?
22:39:33 <metasepia> CYVR 182200Z 24009KT 20SM FEW045 FEW082 SCT230 17/12 A2981 RMK SC1AC1CI2 TCU EMBDD SLP096 DENSITY ALT 300FT
22:39:56 <oerjan> elliott: i was wtfing at that very fast netjoin
22:42:17 <int-e> > let !(~(!(~(!x)))) = undefined in ()
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22:42:30 <int-e> > let ~(!(~(!x))) = undefined in ()
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22:46:33 <quintopia> boily: somewhere between. greenville is slightly closer
22:54:25 <Sgeo> Is my life turning into a tautology?
22:54:41 <boily> Sgeo: you have turned into Sgeo.
22:55:04 <ion> sgeo: Your life is your life. I can’t comment more than i can comment.
22:55:11 <Sgeo> NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
22:55:40 <Taneb> What've you all been working on lately?
22:56:13 <int-e> "no" is no tautology.
22:56:43 <boily> Taneb: some dentistal prosthesisery.
22:57:04 <Taneb> boily, that sounds kind of icky.
22:58:16 <boily> it's fun! it's all digital! it involves black magic with quaternions!
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23:02:13 <oerjan> we can now fit your wisdom teeth into a fourth dimension, avoid removing them
23:03:31 <oerjan> the claims this leads to mixing with your grandfather's teeth are entirely unfounded
23:04:37 <boily> I'll have to grep the code Tuesday morning for any grandfathery classes.
23:04:41 <int-e> oerjan, are you in cahoots with the tooth fairy?
23:05:46 <oerjan> int-e: i'm just helping em save on interest by borrowing money across time
23:06:17 <oerjan> quintopia: no, that's ørjan
23:06:22 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
23:07:36 <Taneb> oerjan, what've you and ørjan been up to?
23:08:28 <oerjan> what makes you think i associate with that goody two-shoes
23:08:51 <ion> Too bad IRC uses ISO 646 FI instead of ISO 646 NO for nicks.
23:08:54 <quintopia> oerjan: i meant to say 'oerjan is krampus' my bad
23:10:03 <ion> |rjan decoded from ISO 646 NO would be ørjan.
23:10:11 <oerjan> yes that would be bad.
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23:39:28 <quintopia> my mom asked me what 'je ne sais quois' means. she doesn't realize i've told her.
23:40:07 <oerjan> `addquote <quintopia> my mom asked me what 'je ne sais quois' means. she doesn't realize i've told her.
23:40:09 <HackEgo> 1195) <quintopia> my mom asked me what 'je ne sais quois' means. she doesn't realize i've told her.
23:45:22 <Taneb> Goodnight, everyone.
23:47:05 <boily> uhm. once a quote has been quoted, is it correct to fix a small French orthography mistake?
23:48:37 <oerjan> boily: no, the typos are now written in stone hth
23:48:50 <oerjan> (i assume you mean the quoi*s*
23:49:03 * boily writhes in agony. «AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!»
23:49:15 <boily> (your assumption is right on.)
23:49:42 <oerjan> you could ask quintopia to say it again, correctly. then it's almost not cheating.
23:50:35 <boily> nah. it's not like I consiously add very bad Chinese to the PDF one time...
23:51:12 <oerjan> but we have no chinese in the channel to agonize, do we?
23:51:34 <oerjan> (if we did we'd have been hacked out of existence by now)
23:52:22 <boily> someone here ought to learn some Chinese language. (I'm making an effort here with some mangled Japanese, but it's not in the same family.)
23:52:58 <oerjan> (as a norwegian i feel it is increasingly becoming my duty to insult chinese for their sensitivity. is this bad?)
23:55:09 <oerjan> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Norway_relations#2010_Nobel_Peace_Prize)
23:55:19 <oerjan> (and following sections)
23:56:35 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
23:56:55 <int-e> . o O ( would it be mean to say that I don't see much difference between those two quotes? )
23:57:35 <boily> there was context. it got mugged in a dark alley. by drunken sailors wielding sharpened bamboo poles.
23:57:46 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
23:59:19 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.