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01:01:49 <zzo38> Can you know how to play monstery-poker?
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01:38:12 <Sgeo> ZenMagnets don't understand money
01:38:13 <Sgeo> "The value of Bitcoin doesn't come from government trust (like dollars) or chemical properties (like gold), but instead from mathematical properties of cryptography."
01:38:49 <Bike> it still amuses me to think of bitcoin as based on the labor theory of value
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02:55:45 <zzo38> Monstery-poker game is game many difference from ordinary poker game. In case you lose, then they are allowed to eat your blood, and they are also allowed to eat your money. Also, sometimes there is more aces than other cards. And other differences.
03:03:18 <zzo38> Your opponent, I suppose? Who else?
03:10:38 <shachaf> My opponents have rarely eaten my blood before.
04:03:22 <MDude> Not to be confused with Monastery-poker.
04:04:27 <MDude> Hmm somsome messages me some time ago.
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04:20:34 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/27l0tp/a_cycle_within_a_tree_you_thought_that_was/
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04:42:00 <coppro> Sgeo: trees can't have cycles
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05:00:38 <zzo38> Is more information available of BANCSTAR?
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05:06:28 <zzo38> I can guess now what some things mean by looking at the printout.
05:06:38 <zzo38> However, only a few pages are available.
05:09:31 <zzo38> I can see that 2999,,, seems to be starting a new "page", and that jump targets are page numbers. It appear that command 3001 is for block conditions, which probably are not allowed to be nested.
05:11:14 <zzo38> After the "goto page" instruction at the end of page 1, there is a 1254 instruction, which has no description.
05:11:18 <zzo38> Do you know what it means?
05:16:00 <zzo38> It seems that each number in the program is limited to a signed 16-bit integer and that several strange things are done to ensure it will fit.
05:26:21 <zzo38> Commands with 1 in the ten thousands place seems to be some assignments
05:30:33 <zzo38> I might be willing to try to help them with it
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05:44:50 <zzo38> I do not know why line 00061 is "3000,192,1," instead of "3000,193,1,"
05:47:44 <zzo38> Sometimes it seems variables are assigned the value they already have. Is this supposed to force the corresponding field on the screen to be refreshed?
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06:02:01 <zzo38> Actually I can guess what the 1254 instruction which has no description might be for. Perhaps it is to cause something to be displayed the screen; maybe these instructions are a prompt for variable 1254 and it is displayed even if the prompt is not executed.
06:06:26 <zzo38> I can see the code that says "I'm not too worried about revealing a lot of proprietary information here, as only about ten people in the world can read this code". Well, now I can figure out part of it!
06:10:32 <oerjan> zzo38, the eleventh guy
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06:20:24 <zzo38> Variable 1547 is the "pause flag", which is being cleared a lot, although I am not quite sure of its purpose.
06:26:23 <zzo38> See: http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html I don't know what instruction 9301 is supposed to mean, but it seems like it might be important.
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06:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cupid]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39773&oldid=8549 * Rdebath * (+55) Wayback machine pointer
06:50:27 <oerjan> oh we actually do have a disambig template
06:52:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cupid]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39774&oldid=39773 * Oerjan * (+0) /* External resources */ template syntax
06:55:58 <zzo38> OK then you can use that one
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07:16:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Warpdrive]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39775&oldid=39772 * Oerjan * (+207) format, and I'm not convinced by that TC claim
07:19:34 <fowl> im proud of this https://gist.github.com/fowlmouth/8cc9ee26bcf509b5fea5
07:25:04 <oerjan> zzo38: someone already did
07:26:34 <oerjan> damn radiator stopped working
07:27:33 <oerjan> seems to be no water in it at all.
07:27:55 <oerjan> i hope i've managed to close the plug right if it comes back
07:28:57 <oerjan> although if it's like last year, they'll need to do an annoying simultaneous airing of all the apartments "simultaneously"
07:29:18 <oerjan> (annoying because they're ENTERING MY APARTMENT dammit)
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07:30:21 * oerjan wonders if they've turned off the system on purpose, or if it's just a side effect of all the radiators being off during the heatwave
07:31:55 <oerjan> it's not like anyone's actually told me. i wonder if there's an intranet website i'm supposed to know about.
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07:32:56 <oerjan> (i'm worried about the plug because it didn't seem to actually stop turning)
07:37:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Burn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39776&oldid=39769 * Oerjan * (+52) dates are _not_ optional hth
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08:09:13 <myname> burn kinda reminds me of that language that will be specified in the future
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08:21:42 <oerjan> i'd be surprised if that guess is right, as it doesn't fit my definition of cellular automaton.
08:22:17 <oerjan> but i'll wait for ais523
08:32:52 <myname> what was that graph rewriting language?
08:34:42 <myname> i fail to memorize that name
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09:47:58 <mroman> zzo38: Do you have actual documentation about BANCStar?
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10:21:02 <oerjan> "As your post stands, there is no baby to throw out, and your bathtub is only a small bucket of gas direct from your anus."
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10:22:02 <oerjan> just 7 days until r/physics can theoretically get a new moderator...
10:24:12 <oerjan> um that sounds like i meant that comment should be deleted, it was actually a relatively brilliant flame of a crackpot.
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11:40:13 <myname> are there other cool programming games besides space chem/robozzle/rubicon/manufactoria?
11:44:47 <myname> well, okay, but thats not a kind of "here is a level, solve it" game
11:45:01 <Slereah_> IT IS THE BEST GAME ALL CATEGORY
11:45:19 <myname> Slereah_: nah, dwarf fortress
11:45:30 <Slereah_> DF has the hydrolic compooters yeah
11:46:44 <Melvar> Minecraft with ComputerCraft installed?
11:49:32 <myname> it lacks a good level structure, though
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11:56:10 <Slereah_> Well first you do the .h, then the .c, then preprocessing, then compilation, then linking
11:57:18 <mhi^> Or you win by getting executed.
11:57:22 <mhi^> You never know with C.
11:59:47 <FreeFull> myname: Try http://www.kongregate.com/games/krispykrem/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people
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12:01:41 <myname> FreeFull: oh, i knew that, i never solved power on reset, though
12:03:32 <myname> my bigger problem is to make it go down, but i just got an idea
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13:50:06 <int-e> hmm. I still heve to find a use for n gates (pnp transistors). there's no GND but surely that doesn't make them completely useless? In the meantime what do you think of http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/4andor.png ?
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14:25:18 <int-e> ah. found an (obvious in retorspect) use for pnp transistors.
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14:41:56 <int-e> and this implausible design: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/4andor2.png
14:55:34 <FreeFull> It'd be nice if it allowed diodes
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15:01:38 <myname> gates are way to easy, aren't they?
15:01:58 <myname> although, i'd probably enjoy a game based on funciton
15:15:52 <int-e> and the reset thing would be much harder without pnp transistors, I think.
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15:17:31 <Sgeo> http://node-os.com/
15:17:35 <int-e> myname: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/reset.png
15:17:51 <Sgeo> I guess an OS that uses npm (as suggested by that piece of text), but not node.js for anything else but that, was too much to hope for?
15:20:03 <int-e> FireFly: http://www.kongregate.com/games/krispykrem/kohctpyktop-engineer-of-the-people
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15:30:55 <mroman> zzo38: If you find decent documentation about BANCStar I'd be interested
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16:21:19 <zzo38> mroman: Yes, although I don't know if there is any. Something says it is "undocumented"
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16:29:15 <mroman> the manufacturer gotta have a docu
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16:35:08 <mroman> but I'm not sure whether they lost it or will publish it
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16:44:37 <Sgeo> I tried to email them a long time ago, no response
16:45:01 <Sgeo> I don't know if I even emailed the right place
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16:59:19 <FireFly> http://i.imgur.com/vilevsu.png was my solution for reset
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17:06:48 <mroman> Sgeo: You really asked them for documentation?
17:07:39 <mroman> WP says they are called Broadway & Seymour now
17:08:42 <mroman> if they even still exist
17:09:17 <mroman> As of July 18, 2001, The Broadway & Seymour Group was acquired by WebTone Technologies, Inc.
17:10:18 <mroman> As of September 2, 2003, WebTone Technologies, Inc. was acquired by Fidelity Information Services, Inc.
17:12:04 <mroman> ah. FIS is a company that still exists at least
17:13:01 <mroman> Sgeo: Did you write to the FIS or to whom did you write?
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17:27:37 <zzo38> I don't expect any documentation for the instruction code to exist, although there may be documentation for the screen generator, which might help too.
17:30:00 <tswett> So I wrote a senior thesis and my advisor says I should put it on the arXiv. I wonder if I really should or not.
17:30:22 <tswett> There aren't any new results in it.
17:30:32 <Bike> why the fuck not, imo
17:32:24 <nooodl> myname: zachtronics industries has some more of them
17:32:58 <nooodl> "Ruckingenur" and "The Codex of Alchemical Engineering" are fun!
17:33:03 <Sgeo> mroman: I emailed moreinformation@fisglobal.com
17:33:45 <Sgeo> That was around 2011
17:33:58 <elliott> maybe they're still working on their reply
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17:38:07 <zzo38> Try asking whoever put it in GitHub; maybe they know some things.
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17:41:28 <tswett> I'm looking at Wikipedia's list of mathematical coincidences. I think the most compelling one is that pi^3 is about 0.006 more than an integer.
17:41:55 <tswett> So pi^3 - 31 is a pretty small number.
17:42:01 <zzo38> I didn't see that article, but I will look
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17:59:10 <nooodl> "pi^4 + pi^5 \approx e^6 within 0.000 005%" wowww
18:02:26 <Bike> now get an exact one, so we can learn if they're algebraically dependent once and for all
18:06:50 <nooodl> tswett: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_independence#Algebraic_independence_of_known_constants
18:07:20 <tswett> "It is not even known if pi + e is irrational."
18:07:20 <Bike> tswett: yes, bizarrely
18:07:44 <Bike> there's a lot like that. whether euler-mascheroni is irrational is also unknown, &c
18:07:59 <tswett> Do we know a power series for pi where the ratio between successive terms approaches 0?
18:08:39 <tswett> And where the terms are all rational numbers.
18:09:26 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/8/4/f844df0b56253162e6aed16eed56167b.png shrug
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18:10:36 <tswett> 640320^(3/2) isn't rational, is it?
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18:13:11 <Jafet> Gee whiz, it's, like, hyper geometric
18:14:15 <tswett> Did I say "power series"? I meant "series".
18:14:30 <tswett> There's gotta be a word for numbers that can be written as a series of rational numbers where the ratio between successive terms approaches 0.
18:14:32 <Bike> ok good i was confused.
18:14:47 <tswett> I think they're all irrational and closed under addition.
18:14:53 <Melvar> > (pi^4 + pi^5 - exp 6) - (pi^4 + pi^5 - (exp 1)^6)
18:15:04 <Bike> then, http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/4/5/845a6038420113e231a6f89b75524680.png
18:15:17 <Bike> oh, except q = e^pi, nvm
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18:15:33 <Bike> http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/8/b/b/8bb0c0c46e24bb426817c4f2a71bdf48.png oh right. there you go.
18:15:37 <Bike> dunno about the ratio bit tho
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18:18:18 <Bike_> since that gets you digits i guess the ratio is about 1/16, oops
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18:20:30 <FreeFull> Bike_: That's the formula most suitable for calculating pi in a power-of-two base
18:20:39 <FreeFull> So perfect for binary or hexadecimal
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18:20:50 <Bike> I was in fact already aware of that
18:21:05 <FreeFull> I think there is one for base 10 too
18:21:27 <FreeFull> I think it's neat how you can calculate any digit of pi without calculating the others
18:21:34 <mroman> well.. I just wrote to fisglobal
18:21:40 <mroman> let's hope for the best :)
18:26:11 <tswett> Anyway, I doubt we're going to come across a series of rational numbers for pi where the ratio approaches zero.
18:27:18 <tswett> Seeing as how that would imply that pi + e is irrational.
18:28:19 <nooodl> what about 3 + 0.14 + 0.001592 + 0.00000065358979 + ...
18:28:58 <tswett> You're a genius, mate.
18:29:11 <tswett> Dang, I think I can prove that 2/3 is irrational.
18:29:24 <tswett> Observe: 2/3 = 0.6 + 0.066 + 0.0006666 + 0.000000066666666 + ...
18:30:41 <nooodl> i don't get why this is supposedly a sufficient condition for irrationality!
18:30:57 <tswett> Fourier's proof of the irrationality of e.
18:31:01 <tswett> It obviously generalizes.
18:31:13 <Slereah_> Irrationality isn't too hard to prove
18:31:22 <Slereah_> At least if you allow proof by contradiction
18:31:31 <tswett> Slereah_: I'll pay you twenty bucks to prove that pi + e is irrational.
18:31:38 <Jafet> Yeah, the hard one is proving 2/3 isn't real
18:31:59 <Slereah_> It's part of Q which is automatically in R!
18:32:03 <tswett> How do you know that 0 ≠ 3?
18:32:28 <Bike> or MY THINKING CAP
18:32:37 <tswett> > 2 / 3 * 3 == (2 :: Double)
18:32:59 <tswett> > 2 / 7 * 7 == (2 :: Double)
18:33:10 <tswett> > 2 / 163 * 163 == (2 :: Double)
18:33:33 <tswett> I really would have expected rounding error to kick in at some point there.
18:33:54 <Jafet> > [k | k<-[1..], recip k * k /= 1]
18:34:02 <Jafet> > [k | k<-[1..], recip k * k /= 1]
18:34:04 <lambdabot> [49.0,98.0,103.0,107.0,161.0,187.0,196.0,197.0,206.0,214.0,237.0,239.0,249.0...
18:34:35 <tswett> > 2 / 49 * 49 == (2 :: Double)
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18:35:33 <tswett> Okay, proof by contradiction. Suppose that 2/3 is rational.
18:35:48 <tswett> Then there must exist integers a and b such that 2/3 = a/b.
18:35:59 <tswett> Without loss of generality, let's assume that b = 3.
18:36:37 <tswett> Now, we have this series for 2/3: 0.6 + 0.066 + 0.0006666 + 0.000000066666666 + ...
18:37:11 <tswett> The terms are rational numbers with denominators 10, 1000, 10000000, and so on. 10^(2^n-1) or whatever.
18:38:00 <tswett> Now, consider the... third partial sum of this series, I guess. Which is 0.6666666.
18:38:43 <tswett> Multiplying this by 10000000, we get 6666666, and then the rest of the series is like 0.66666666 + 0.000000006666666666666666 + ...
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18:39:17 <tswett> Now, is 2/3 * 10000000 an integer?
18:39:29 <tswett> Let's assume that 2/3 * 10000000 is an integer.
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18:40:00 <tswett> Then the difference between 2/3 * 10000000 and 6666666 must be an integer, too, so the rest of the series has to converge to an integer.
18:40:08 <tswett> But the rest of the series clearly converges to something between 0 and 1.
18:40:11 <tswett> This is a contradiction.
18:40:29 <tswett> We have, therefore, proved that 2/3 * 10000000 is not an integer.
18:40:53 <FreeFull> Do you have a proof that the series converges to something between 0 and 1?
18:41:13 <tswett> Quod non erat demonstrandum.
18:41:19 <tswett> FreeFull: that's an open problem.
18:41:20 <FreeFull> I know that it does, but just stating that isn't rigorous
18:41:58 <Jafet> "A new proof that 83 is prime" http://cr.yp.to/talks/2003.03.23/slides.pdf
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18:44:33 <Jafet> applybot, find_theorems "prime 2"
18:44:35 <applybot> *** ML_antiquotation "thm": bad arguments
18:44:38 <tswett> Don't be ridiculous. 2 is divisible by 2.
18:44:48 <Jafet> applybot, find_theorems "prime 2"
18:44:49 <applybot> Primes.two_is_prime_int: prime 2 \ Primes.two_is_prime_nat: prime 2 \ (and 1 more)
18:46:39 <Bike> "Proof: Define R as the ring[...]" i like where this is going
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18:59:03 <tswett> Hey, what if we multiply by 30000000 instead. Then the rest of the series is like 1.99999997 + 0.000000019999999999999997 + ... or whatever.
18:59:10 <tswett> Which is less than 1, so 2/3 is irrational.
18:59:13 <zzo38> Can you play mi-go-scientific-card or scopone-scientific card? I know the latter game at least. ("Scopone" is Italian for "big broom". Did you know that?)
19:00:00 <zzo38> tswett: Is that how the proof is supposed to work?
19:00:31 <zzo38> It doesn't looks like it to me?
19:00:50 <tswett> Well, it *doesn't* work.
19:00:55 <tswett> But it's *supposed* to.
19:04:20 <FreeFull> tswett: Are you sure that 1 shouldn't be a 2?
19:04:34 <tswett> FreeFull: it's definitely a 1, yeah.
19:04:51 <tswett> And those 7s should be 8s.
19:05:01 <tswett> The rest of the series is exactly 2, in fact.
19:05:08 <tswett> And 0 < 2 < 1, so 2/3 is irrational.
19:05:39 <zzo38> Is an infinite sum series supposed to be left-associative or right-associative or what?
19:07:15 <tswett> Right-associative, I guess.
19:07:40 <tswett> The sum of an infinite series is equal to the series's first term plus the sum of the rest of the series.
19:08:04 <zzo38> It is what I thought, but I wasn't sure
19:08:09 <tswett> It is not the case that the sum of an infinite series is equal to the series's last term plus the sum of the rest of the series.
19:08:16 <tswett> Because an infinite series doesn't have a last term.
19:10:00 <tswett> All right, what the Helsinki was I doing. Something unrelated to IRC, I'm sure.
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19:20:47 <mroman> Now I've also written the guy with the github bancstar repo
19:21:09 <zzo38> mroman: OK, hopefully that help
19:26:14 <zzo38> I wonder if anyone else can help me to guess some of the BANCSTAR functions?
19:34:37 <Bike> one of t he domain-specific languages of ghost stories programmers bring up around the campfire
19:36:01 <zzo38> boily: There is a Wikipedia article about it, also linking to some other information. Based on this, I have figured out some of it, and made guesses as to some other parts of it.
19:36:52 * boily ventures and go check the wikipédia article...
19:37:24 * boily closes the tab. “I wasn't meant for looking at that.”
19:38:36 <boily> Bike: I agree with the ghost story part of that kvikkalkullike language.
19:41:37 <zzo38> You weren't meant for looking at that?
19:42:27 <boily> I try to salvage and protect my sanity from stuff like that.
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19:55:30 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> There's gotta be a word for numbers that can be written as a series of rational numbers where the ratio between successive terms approaches 0. <-- my hunch is on "real" hth
19:56:33 <oerjan> although it would be a bit more interesting if it wasn't.
19:56:34 <Bike> but oerjan, e's irrationality obvious generalizes
19:56:53 <oerjan> Bike: is that all that is used in the proof of that?
19:57:25 <Bike> when nooodl tried giving a cauchy sequence for pi tswett took it as proving any real is irrational, as far as i'm reading
19:58:03 <int-e> myname: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/bah.png is a bit of a let-down though.
19:58:35 <int-e> (that's the two and gates one)
19:58:59 <oerjan> pretty sure the proof for e must use that the ratios are integers...
19:59:00 <Bike> well, i don't know if cauchy sequences and the ratio thing are equivalent, i guess
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20:00:37 <oerjan> you know _every_ real number has plenty of cauchy sequences, right
20:00:55 <oerjan> it's like, a definition of them.
20:01:46 <Bike> what i don't know is whether tswett is right, but i kind of doubt it
20:05:57 <oerjan> i suppose he might be right that it implies they're irrational, there are some approximation theorems
20:06:41 <oerjan> <tswett> Observe: 2/3 = 0.6 + 0.066 + 0.0006666 + 0.000000066666666 + ... <-- oh hm
20:06:54 <oerjan> i think he just basically disproved it there.
20:06:56 <Bike> it's just, yeah, i'm pretty sure that sums to 2/3 and has a ratio
20:07:03 <Bike> yeah but he was acting like it didn't? i don't know
20:07:20 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure he was joking about 2/3 being irrational hth
20:07:37 <Bike> well yes, i meant about nooodl's thing
20:08:45 <oerjan> @tell tswett never mind, should have read further
20:40:44 <mroman> There's also 1/2 = 1/3 + 1/9 + 1/27 ...
20:41:14 <Bike> that's a constant ratio of 3, no
20:56:31 <oerjan> well if you write 1/2 in ternary as 0.1111... and _then_ use that grouping trick, you can get something with 3^n denominators.
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21:30:22 <Bike> "To handle a molecule containing one or more cycles, one must first expand it into a tree (called a hierarchical digraph by the authors)"
21:38:26 <Quintopia> I think I've got greater trochanteric pain syndrome :(
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