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00:41:47 <zzo38> Why do Google's HTTP servers have a lot of protocol violations?
00:49:04 <zzo38> I doubt it has anything to do with me
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01:03:12 <Sgeo> zzo38: because lots of people don't follow protocols, sometimes because they can't, because of other people not following protocols
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01:24:51 <zzo38> Can you please help me? Is ZCDSF even LALR(1)?
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01:27:01 <zzo38> The compiler says there aren't any conflicts, but it still doesn't work.
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01:32:39 <zzo38> Actually I may have found one of the mistakes; probably many of the mistakes I made are in the tokenizer instead of in the parser.
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01:33:32 <zzo38> The tokenizer was deleting some semicolons that shouldn't be deleted.
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01:36:41 <zzo38> I think it works now.
01:38:11 <zzo38> Macros still have a few problems.
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01:48:28 <zzo38> OK I fixed it. I accidentally put a minus sign instead of equal sign and that caused a problem
02:05:51 <Sgeo> I love working at 1:15AM!
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02:26:41 <zzo38> Now I made it: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/zcdsflib.zip
02:27:43 <zzo38> Please look in the file called "zcdsflib.h" for the list of API functions.
02:28:30 <zzo38> Do you think this is good?
02:30:52 <zzo38> It isn't quite perfect.
02:31:18 <zzo38> It isn't secure either.
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03:41:29 <zzo38> A music tracker software I would think, it would help to have three more windows: SQL window, MML compiler window, and synthesizer window. Do you know of such a software, which can also make/edit/play a .MOD and .S3M and .IT and .XM formats?
03:42:47 <zzo38> Also even such format as .MOD and so on you cannot enable multiple effects at once
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03:52:45 <tswett> So I'm pretty sure that a while back, in this channel, someone mentioned "coffee with butter in".
03:53:56 <tswett> I mentioned that that sounded wrong to me; you'd have to say "coffee with butter in it".
03:54:15 <tswett> Whereas it's perfectly fine to say e.g. "a gun with bullets in".
03:54:23 <tswett> I now think I know the answer to that question.
03:54:42 <Bike> "slightly different dialect"
03:54:44 <tswett> The answer is that something is only "in" if it operates by being inside of whatever it's inside of. Otherwise, it has to be "in it".
03:55:06 <tswett> Bullets operate by being inside of guns. Butter does not operate by being inside of coffee.
03:55:32 <Bike> have you ever heard the term "post-hoc"
03:56:02 <tswett> As in post-hoc analysis?
03:56:45 <tswett> Sure. It's hard to do analysis without already having some data.
03:58:28 <Bike> well the implication is you just make something up after the fact.
03:58:47 <tswett> Well, I tried to come up with a simple hypothesis that fit the data well.
03:58:52 <Bike> without much real possibility that it's the cause (for instance: why does this matter to americans and not to brits)
03:59:29 <Bike> cos you keep doing this and you're gonna end up thinking "fuck" is an initialism, you know?
04:00:44 <tswett> Also, I haven't yet thought of a counterexample or an alternative hypothesis that seems to work better.
04:01:10 <Bike> quirk of history assisted by geographic separations
04:03:07 <Jafet> Have you ever used a gun
04:03:41 <tswett> Bike: you realize that you're not actually contradicting what I said?
04:03:46 <tswett> Jafet: yes, but not a bullet gun.
04:03:55 <Bike> mine is an alternative hypothesis.
04:04:24 <Bike> i haven't used a gun, but i have concluded that they work by magnetic acceleration, cos that's how i'd make one.
04:04:29 <tswett> My hypothesis is a hypothesis about what the rule is for me personally. Your hypothesis is a hypothesis about why it's that way.
04:05:21 <tswett> (I ain't never used none of them BULLET GUNS.)
04:05:31 <Bike> why would you do that to a bicycle jafet
04:06:14 <Jafet> You can't put artillery on a unicycle, man, it would fall over.
04:06:35 <tswett> Bicycle artillery. What a great idea.
04:07:08 <Bike> have the artillery fire in both ways simultaneously
04:07:35 <tswett> Is there a word for a gun that isn't a firearm?
04:07:45 <Jafet> Of course, that never stopped the Dresden Unicycle Military Branch's firing uni cyclist kooks.
04:10:27 <zzo38> Are tracker music formats supposed to be deliberately difficult to work with?
04:10:33 <zzo38> It seems like it to me.
04:14:20 <Bike> zzo38: it's a well known fact that leonardo davinci wrote his chiptunes backwards to confuse thieves.
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07:08:41 <kmc> fungots fall on fungot falls
07:08:41 <fungot> kmc: or not. i didn't write down who said that
07:10:41 <oerjan> fungot: apparently, godspeed you black emperor hth
07:10:41 <fungot> oerjan: strike the " for"
07:10:55 <oerjan> fungot: already did hth
07:10:55 <fungot> oerjan: this means that whatever the 2nd interpreter does added to the hashtable i have the patch?
07:11:24 <oerjan> fungot: i don't know, show me the code
07:11:24 <fungot> oerjan: my fnord have fnord of code improvement are applicable to many languages
07:11:38 <oerjan> fungot: i think that got censored hth
07:11:39 <fungot> oerjan: i did?) has no support for processes.
07:14:11 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2
07:14:26 <oerjan> i don't think it has that command
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08:05:09 <mroman> zzo38: Loughry pushed some new stuff
08:05:15 <mroman> He pushed more source code and the LIST source code too
08:05:26 <mroman> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/blob/master/MM1SM1.SCN
08:05:36 <mroman> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/tree/master/LIST/src/
08:05:40 <mroman> ^- that's the LIST source
08:06:04 <zzo38> OK now let me to see it
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08:07:41 <mroman> He also found a PDF that documents opcodes
08:07:52 <mroman> although "documents"... :D
08:07:57 <mroman> it lists them at least :D
08:10:33 <zzo38> What do the asterisks on the left side means?
08:11:38 <zzo38> Some of these things I have already guessed a bit from the other printouts and examples
08:12:39 <zzo38> Whoever printed it out forgot to compensate for the holes
08:15:20 <mroman> 10000 - 12000 are "Arithmetic Commands"
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08:15:50 <mroman> Still very little information :)
08:16:36 <zzo38> Yes, although from looking at the printout, a few more things can be figured out about that.
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08:17:15 <zzo38> I already figured that 10000 and so on are used for direct assignment, and low numbered commands are prompts, from what was available before.
08:17:36 <zzo38> From looking at printout a few more things about how this "arithmetic commands" can be figured out.
08:19:54 <zzo38> For example, the three operands to "arithmetic commands" seem to be the values to add or otherwise do, where you have to multiply by ten and add two. A number 1 to 2000 is a variable, or you can add 2200 for a literal number (I don't know why it is 2200).
08:21:03 <zzo38> But for comparisons, there is no "multiply by ten", and you instead add ten thousand for a numeric literal, or thirty thousand for a character literal.
08:22:10 <zzo38> (I don't know what happens if you add twenty thousand.)
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08:24:38 <zzo38> The ones digit of the arithmetic operands seems to be 2 for addition and 6 for substrings; I don't know what 5 means.
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08:24:49 <oerjan> Quintopia: graph the number of graphs that don't graph themselves hth
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08:33:49 <zzo38> OK, now I see arithmetic operator 4 is division
08:35:43 <zzo38> From the context, it seems that command 3100 might mean that it is an error if the condition is false; rewind and tell the user to try again.
08:38:24 <zzo38> It is now clear from the arrows that 3001 command block does not nest, and just combines conditions using a "and" operation; I have already guessed this from the part of the program that "only ten people can read", and now I have confirmed it.
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08:41:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: Turning BANCStar up to eleven | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:49:30 <zzo38> I am guessing that the last value in the prompt commands is the position on the screen which it is displayed.
08:49:55 <zzo38> And it is in row/column format
08:50:04 <zzo38> Where the row is multiplied by one hundred
08:52:03 <zzo38> It is in format: variable,help-position,response-length,field-position is my currently guess
08:53:03 <zzo38> I don't know why some of them use negative numbers though. Probably that means something too.
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08:58:43 <mroman> zzo38: He alos pushed 58 pages of annotated source code :)
08:58:51 <mroman> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/blob/master/LIST/doc/C16LNAPP.SCN_LIST_report.pdf
08:59:44 <mroman> which also includes some "Screenshots" of the GUI at the end
09:00:20 <mroman> or at least what his tool generated
09:01:02 <mroman> zzo38: He also found a copy of the actual software
09:01:18 <mroman> which he tries to recover
09:01:26 <mroman> let's hope the floppy disk isn't too much damaged.
09:02:32 <zzo38> Yes, I am looking at those annotated codes now
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09:22:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: is this about BANCStar still?
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09:27:08 <b_jonas> Is the first number in a BANCStar line always the opcode?
09:29:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think so
09:29:43 <zzo38> Although the opcode also includes the number of the variable to manipulate, if applicable.
09:29:44 <b_jonas> I'll make an entry on the eso wiki for BANCStar
09:33:55 <oerjan> i vaguely recall BANCStar being removed because someone insisted it's not esoteric. not sure it was the wiki, though.
09:34:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BANCStar]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39783 * B jonas * (+730) Created page with "'''BANCStar''' is a language that was used in production in finance in the 1990s, even though it looks like an esoteric language. Each line in a BANCStar program is four op..."
09:35:16 <zzo38> There is the prehistory of esolangs page, as well as some people wanting "honorary esolangs" too; however, it is unsure how to organize such thing within the wiki, and furthermore in a few cases it may be disagreed of what counts.
09:35:43 <b_jonas> meh, if you don't like honorary esolangs, just add a category for them or something
09:35:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39784&oldid=39737 * B jonas * (+15)
09:36:30 <zzo38> I myself am OK with it (and agree with you to make it separate category), but perhaps we can decide which way best.
09:37:08 <b_jonas> sure, just delete it if you decide there's no place for it
09:37:27 <b_jonas> and add Haskell and C++ etc if you decide you want honorary esolangs or something
09:38:03 <zzo38> I wouldn't consider to add those, but that is what I say, it may be disagreed of what counts.
09:38:45 <b_jonas> More seriously, I wouldn't bother to add stuff like Haskell or C++ or TeX or metafont etc, because there's already lots of information about those everywhere on the internet.
09:38:48 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think the prospect that people will start adding things like haskell and c++ is a reason why we've avoided it...
09:39:08 <b_jonas> But if you're actually studying BANCStar here, then it deserves a place on the eso wiki.
09:39:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: if someone does want to bother, I don't feel a problem with adding C++, as long as it's not seriously misrepresented
09:39:56 <b_jonas> like, don't claim that it's not used in production or that it was intended as an esolang originally
09:40:47 <b_jonas> should BANCStar go into bounded storage languages, or have you found a way to address arrays?
09:40:59 <zzo38> Note of things like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_esoteric_programming_languages existing, as well as some things on user subpages such as http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Ian/Computer_architectures
09:41:46 <zzo38> b_jonas: There are "tables", but I don't know how they work. Probably it is bounded storage but of course I don't know; only things we can do for now is to makes guesses
09:42:12 <zzo38> I believe that the Special:Random will never select a user page
09:42:59 <b_jonas> never mind, it's not like bounded storage really means much in a language implemented in a computer
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09:45:54 <zzo38> I think pages can also be moved between name spaces if that help
09:48:30 <elliott> I would delete [[Perl]] if oerjan didn't make it mildly amusing
09:49:24 <zzo38> Yes I think that Perl article is good the way it is written, for being on esolang wiki
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09:51:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Perl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39785&oldid=37512 * B jonas * (+26)
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09:51:50 <elliott> b_jonas: that category is for esoteric languages only, I think
09:51:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Perl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39786&oldid=39785 * B jonas * (+54)
09:52:09 <elliott> I guess it's not a subcat of Languages
09:52:20 <b_jonas> there should probably be a cateogry for non-esoteric languages
09:52:34 <elliott> but Implemented and TC should maybe be reserved for esoteric-only, I think.
09:52:42 <zzo38> Or probably one for honorary esolang, at least
09:52:51 <zzo38> elliott: Yes, probably those two should at least
09:53:16 <mroman> looks like you can have 501 pages
09:53:35 <mroman> I assume 0 isn't a "legal" page
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09:53:54 <mroman> values > 501 are function keys
09:54:07 <zzo38> (There may sometimes be reasons why you might have TC on other things too but I don't think of any right now. But I agree that Implemented probably only for (non-honorary) esolangs)
09:54:12 <b_jonas> as for BANCStar, the strange part is why they didn't use at least an assembler for handling the code labels and variables
09:54:31 <zzo38> b_jonas: I was thinking about quite the same kind of things
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09:54:55 <b_jonas> such an assembler could probably be made compatible with existing code
09:54:57 <zzo38> An assembler (supporting a superset of the existing syntax) could be done.
09:55:11 <b_jonas> (at least not less compatible than writing raw code)
09:55:12 <zzo38> I could do it if I knew enough about it!
09:55:25 <mroman> L_COMMTS.C is probably going to be most helpful
09:55:32 <b_jonas> but I probably have a strange idea about these kinds of things:
09:55:59 <mroman> 8500 with M3 40XX is like pressing the corresponding key o_O
09:56:42 <b_jonas> back when we had to write the same homework in two languages, I wrote a translator from a language that had the intersection of their features, and then when that worked fine, I ran out of time and couldn't write the actual program to work well
09:56:44 <mroman> you can even execute DOS commands apparentely
09:57:10 <b_jonas> and even now I probably care too much about the tools
09:57:23 <zzo38> mromas: Yes I saw that.
09:58:11 <b_jonas> is this BANCStar system connected to a database or network or printer or something?
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09:58:30 <mroman> zzo38: Did you look at the arithmetic commands
09:58:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: I would guess, all three, probably.
09:58:42 <mroman> but it looks like there's -+*/
09:59:04 <zzo38> mroman: I have looked at the scanned listing file, and figure out some of how it works, as I have described above.
09:59:23 <zzo38> I didn't finished looking at all of them yet, though.
09:59:53 <mroman> Values under 2000 are prompts
10:00:12 <b_jonas> how are you reverse engineering this? from those printouts only? or do you have access to an implementation (not necessarily in working condition)?
10:00:13 <zzo38> mroman: Yes I figured out that already.
10:00:15 <mroman> which means if the operand_2 is 1000 it will show the user a prompt with the text stored in 1000?
10:00:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: From those printouts only.
10:00:40 <mroman> b_jonas: We might get access to an implementation
10:00:52 <mroman> depends on whether JLoughry can read the floppy disk he found
10:01:21 <zzo38> Even from just the two pages that were originally scanned, and the information that was released when they wrote about the program that only ten people can read it, I could figure out a lot of things.
10:01:34 <zzo38> Although a lot of it, just being guesses.
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10:02:04 <mroman> zzo38: Out of curiousity: Do you plan to implement BANCStar?
10:02:10 <mroman> Or why did you start reverse engineering it?
10:04:03 <zzo38> mroman: Just to figure it out, because figure out that kind of stuff interests me a bit.
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10:20:45 <FireFly> zzo38: have you documented what you've figured out so far in a file or something?
10:29:44 <FireFly> The thing doing the printing seems to print "variable" numbers emboldened. I wonder if that has any semantic meaning or is just a pretty-printing thing
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10:40:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: probably no semantic meaning, for http://reocities.com/ResearchTriangle/station/2266/tarpit/bancstar.html
10:40:37 <b_jonas> says "The only legal characters in a BANCStar program are the digits 0 through 9, comma, minus sign, and carriage return. Blank lines are not allowed. If a "." appears anywhere in the file, the compiler will crash."
10:43:04 <boily> the compiler. crashes. on a fungotting period. I refuse to believe that.
10:43:04 <fungot> boily: hey would fnord be fun to watch him argue with a native fnord.
10:43:25 <boily> fungot: there are multiple kinds of fnords?
10:43:25 <fungot> boily: if you consider that i stated only what i need is to override a specific procedure and then re-export everything else the way it is
10:43:52 <b_jonas> Dies this really have a compiler? I totally thought this was some interpreter that interprets the array of fours of integers.
10:47:30 <mroman> b_jonas: It has a "Screen Generator"
10:47:48 <mroman> Which I think allowed you to create Forms WYSYWG style?
10:48:23 <mroman> there was a program at least that allowed to to create stuff which was translated to BANCStar language that was interpreted by some sort of VM
10:48:41 <oerjan> boily: what's so strange about that, after all it's just the compiler coming to a full stop
10:48:48 <mroman> but as he said, that Screen Generator wasn't powerful enough so they started reverse engineering the VM
10:49:05 <mroman> and program directly in it instead of using the screen generator
10:49:26 <mroman> as I understand it it was never meant to be programmed in it directly which is why there's no official documentation of it
10:49:38 <mroman> which is weird because... I mean
10:49:44 <mroman> If you program a VM you document it, right?
10:50:02 <mroman> zzo38: Who actually wrote the BANCStar "VM"?
10:50:44 <b_jonas> mroman: but I meant about that statement that the "compiler crashes" if it meets a full stop in the barnstar numbers
10:51:54 <mroman> That's a good question
10:52:32 <mroman> "We developed some in-house tools for programming large applications in BANCStar, and at one point attempted to interest Broadway & Seymour in them, but I think they never really believed us, that we were writing directly to their internal, low-level, undocumented machine code."
10:53:11 <mroman> Why would Broadway & Seymour create a VM and not document it's machine code
10:53:24 <mroman> and why wouldn't the programmers just ask them for a documentation
10:53:30 <mroman> this is all really really creepy
10:53:41 <b_jonas> mroman: because it's supposed to be an internal form for the screne generator program
10:53:43 <oerjan> mroman: manifest destiny hth
10:54:00 <b_jonas> mroman: IMO, the people that started to misuse it and write the internal form directly without proper tools are to blame
10:54:07 <mroman> But how will you write the Screen Generator without documentation of the VM it's supposed to target?
10:54:19 <b_jonas> mroman: yes. this was before 1990
10:54:27 <b_jonas> mroman: don't try to think of it like you're in 2014
10:54:39 <mroman> it's like you wrote a VM, then a "Compiler"/"Generator" that targets said VM
10:54:43 <mroman> but you never documented the freaking VM?
10:55:07 <mroman> Good luck maintaining that compiler then
10:55:08 <FireFly> Maybe they documented it with pen and paper
10:55:10 <b_jonas> yes, or maybe they documented it internally, but never released the docs about that with their proprietary screen generator software
10:55:32 <b_jonas> maybe there's documentation in the source code for their screen generator or something
10:55:43 <mroman> b_jonas: I understand that they did not release the docs if you weren't supposed to program in it
10:55:52 <mroman> but once you KNOW that people really program in it
10:56:00 <mroman> that's the point I would release the documentation
10:56:09 <mroman> possibly even *sell* the documentation to earn more money
10:56:29 <mroman> instead of saying "Well, you guys just reverse engineer it. I don't care. I won't help you."
10:56:41 <b_jonas> mroman: probably those docs were not in a releasable state
10:57:04 <mroman> but for gods sake they reverse engineered it :)
10:57:07 <b_jonas> and come on, if you were the developer and someone told you thye want to develop right for that internal language, wouldn't you just LAUGH AT THEM?
10:57:11 <mroman> even a not so good doc is better than nothing.
10:57:17 <b_jonas> those people deserve not to have the docs
10:57:22 <mroman> b_jonas: I would laugh
10:57:33 <mroman> but I'm pretty sure I'd send them the docs I have
10:57:38 <FireFly> I'm a bit scared that stuff like this was actually powering banks
10:57:44 <mroman> not for free probably but I'd sell them
10:58:16 <mroman> Like "well, you're not supposed to do that but for 1000$ bucks I'll give you the documentation"
10:58:27 <b_jonas> FireFly: have you looked at the scanned screenshots on github? it probably just powered credit application form printout stuff, not real banking programs
10:58:28 <mroman> It's not really my problem if they program in the internal language
10:58:41 <mroman> other than this means that my screen generator is crap :D
10:58:47 <FireFly> b_jonas: yeah, I'm reading it currently
10:59:16 <mroman> so I would laugh at first, then realize that my product is apparentely so crappy, they started reverse engineering undocumented stuff and that'd make me sad
11:00:10 <b_jonas> mroman: again, this was before 1990. think of it like that. you didn't have infinite computing resources back then.
11:00:32 <b_jonas> reverse engineering random programs from a floppy was sort of the norm at that time
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11:08:21 <FireFly> zzo38: operand fields ≥2200 seem to be constants, and the least significant digit of each operand seems to determine the operation somehow
11:10:03 <b_jonas> what's the highest magnitude number that appears in the source?
11:11:47 <FireFly> Dunno, but e.g. here a parameter is 25652, which, if I'm guessing correctly, corresponds to the constant value 365 and the operation 2 (addition or concat or something)
11:12:29 <FireFly> There are probably bigger numbers though, a scanned-in pdf isn't easy to search
11:13:49 <FireFly> At least this seems to use ASCII
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11:17:54 <oerjan> well that's the right order of magnitude for a -32768 .. 32767 range
11:23:49 <mroman> FireFly: >= 2200 && <= 3276
11:24:12 <mroman> at least for exponentian
11:24:58 <FireFly> conditionals seem to use other conventions for how to denote constant values
11:25:21 <FireFly> 10xxx seems to be a constant int, 30xxx a constant char (ASCII-encoded)
11:25:48 <mroman> also operator is % 10 and operand / 10?
11:26:37 <FireFly> How mid$ comes into that, I've no clue
11:26:59 <mroman> you encode where to assign in the op itself, right?
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11:27:53 <mroman> I don't get what the prompts are
11:27:59 <mroman> A prompt can store an integer?
11:28:19 <FireFly> Me neither, but I think it could be related to the whole drawing-a-window thing
11:28:30 <FireFly> there's a list of prompt variables and their types and lengths at the end of the PDF
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11:30:51 <mroman> Probably from the prompt file
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11:31:29 <mroman> Did this thing have some Database in the background?
11:35:31 <mroman> There are table search commands for example
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11:39:44 <mroman> there are indirect prompts as well
11:39:58 <mroman> No idea what indirect refers to right now
11:40:20 <FireFly> 22002 seems to be used as a general "unused operand".. I wonder what the reference implementation would do if you passed something else instead
11:40:42 <FireFly> for instance, "x ← number of days between y and z" seems to be 1xxxx,yyyy9,zzzz3,22002
11:40:54 <mroman> ah. There's file-io too
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11:42:13 <FireFly> foo = 0; if Applicant == 'Y': foo = 1; if Spouse == 'Y': foo = 1; ...; if foo == 1: ...
11:42:29 <FireFly> I take it this thing doesn't have a cleaner way to do "or"
11:43:06 <mroman> " It took about two weeks to become fluent in the language."
11:43:13 <mroman> Two weeks is actually not very long
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11:45:55 <mroman> Proceed If aborts if it fails?
11:46:14 <mroman> there's if, block if, proceed if and reverse block proceed if whatever that is supposed to be
11:47:49 <FireFly> isn't it reverse block if?
11:48:03 <FireFly> anyway, I think that's like a do-while loop, essentially (guessing by the arrow to the left)
11:48:30 <b_jonas> so you're missing reverse if, reverse block if, and block proceed if?
11:48:43 <FireFly> reverse if wouldn't make much sense
11:49:15 <b_jonas> which of those is computed come from?
11:49:55 <mroman> b_jonas: so 3101 jumps back to a previous 3101?
11:50:00 <FireFly> if is "conditionally execute next line", block if is "ignore until block-end if condition holds", reverse block if is the same but backwards
11:50:06 <mroman> looks ilke that from the C16LNAPP
11:50:13 <mroman> although I haven't found a nested 3101 now
11:50:21 <FireFly> er, unless condition holds*
11:51:06 <b_jonas> FireFly: so none of those have a target label?
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11:51:22 <b_jonas> this is actually structured programming with if-endif rather than if-goto?
11:51:27 <b_jonas> pretty advanced for its age
11:51:39 <mroman> 3101 looks like it jumps back to a previous 3101
11:51:46 <mroman> and 3001 jumps forward to the next 3001
11:52:17 <FireFly> b_jonas: yep. there is also "save address", "goto screen N", "return from subroutine"
11:52:31 <mroman> FireFly: What's WSF***
11:53:14 <b_jonas> maybe you can compile brainfuck to bancstar then
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11:53:48 <b_jonas> and then claim that this is one of those trivial brainfuck variants like Ook! that only replace the symbols with a longer encoding
11:53:54 <mroman> there are occurences of 3001 followed by another 3001
11:53:58 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, the if-endif doesn't nest
11:53:59 <b_jonas> ] would be 3101,,, or something
11:54:01 <mroman> but only followed by one endif block
11:54:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: you only need nested do-while, not nested if
11:54:19 <mroman> looks like it really jumps only to the next end block
11:54:24 <FireFly> do-while also does not nest I think
11:54:41 <FireFly> So compiling brainfuck would be a bit tricky
11:54:54 <mroman> there's a 3001, and a "nested" 3001
11:55:02 <mroman> but they both end at 00900
11:55:06 <mroman> (according to the arrows at least)
11:55:09 <b_jonas> well, I guess it's more practical to just escape to machine code somehow
11:56:30 <FireFly> mroman: yeah, I'm guessing it's implemented by setting a flag to ignore commands, and end-of-block resets it, or some such
11:58:19 <b_jonas> FireFly: or more likely just fast-scanning for the end of block command in a separate loop
12:01:02 <mroman> why's that more likely :D?
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12:04:31 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe they don't do either: instead the block if command just stores its label to a global variable, the end-of-block commands are preprocessed to know where the previous end-of-block statement is, and the end-of-block statements are compiled as a computed come from that kicks in when that global variable is set to anything between their address and the address of the previous end-of-block.
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12:05:51 <b_jonas> that would be simpler than either ABSTAINING FROM all statements other than end-of-block like FireFly suggests, or scanning in the code memory to find the end-of-block
12:06:58 <mroman> i think ignoring commands when a global flag is set is very easy to implement ;)
12:07:54 <b_jonas> mroman: but so is a loop to scan forward if your code is represented in as simple a way as four words per statement, first word is opcode
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12:11:56 <FireFly> https://github.com/jloughry/BANCStar/blob/master/LIST/src/L_COMMTS.C seems to have a lot of interesting info
12:13:10 <mroman> maybe even enough to write an interpreter :D
12:14:16 <b_jonas> FireFly: is that a code pretty printer?
12:14:46 <FireFly> the LIST utility is apparently what took a BANCStar source file and produced a listing like the pdf that was linked before
12:15:33 <b_jonas> hee, that loop with "Deactivate F7 - activate all other F-keys" in that pretty-printer seems copy-paste code
12:15:53 <mroman> not just a pretty printer
12:16:04 <mroman> it annotates code with pseudo-code
12:16:26 <b_jonas> mroman: yes. that's a pretty-printer. or call it a disassembler if you prefer.
12:17:13 <mroman> I'll call it code annotator
12:18:37 <FireFly> you could also call it a syntax highlighter :P
12:19:02 <FireFly> it typesets variables in boldtext and things
12:19:38 <mroman> It's the holy grail of a tool .
12:19:45 <mroman> that is, if you beleive in the holy grail
12:21:30 <FireFly> Whose bright idea was it to make the conditional operator encoding depend on the type?
12:21:57 <FireFly> That is, the check for inequality of strings seems to be encoded with the same operator number as >= on numbers
12:22:25 <b_jonas> there are string variables?
12:23:16 <FireFly> Makes sense to me, if you have input fields for things that it would be able to deal with strings too
12:23:32 <b_jonas> so the mid and length operations operate on entire strings? is there a string concatenate operator? that'd probably be easily enough for turing-completeness
12:24:20 <b_jonas> I thought it only operated on characters, and on fixed length arrays laid out in the 2000 words of data memory or something
12:24:59 <mroman> I think we're not even sure if you have 2000 words
12:25:04 <mroman> or just 2000 storage thingies
12:25:15 <mroman> which can hold values of different size
12:25:32 <FireFly> There is a line that gets annotated with "Name = First Name + Middle + Last", where the only sensible interpretation I can think of is string concatenation
12:25:44 <b_jonas> that scan includes a variable listing with lots of ALPHA stuff, but I thought that was just a character or something
12:25:48 <mroman> FireFly: which line number is that?
12:26:29 <Jafet> Is it esoteric if it's actually used for banking
12:28:29 <mroman> so the operators are 2,2,2
12:28:44 <mroman> and operands are 190,191,192
12:29:00 <FireFly> 2 is also addition (for numbers)
12:29:10 <b_jonas> ah, so it encodes multiple operators and operands together in a command? nice
12:29:12 <mroman> so 190,191,192 are prompts
12:30:04 <b_jonas> and does 10193 encode both that this is supposed to be an arithmetic expression thing and the destination location?
12:30:18 <mroman> although it seems like it just looks at operator_4?
12:30:32 <FireFly> b_jonas: it says "store to 193"
12:30:49 <FireFly> that it is in [10000,12000] indicates that it is a move operation, AFAIK
12:30:58 <FireFly> s/AFAIK/is my interpretation/
12:31:57 <mroman> the 193 in 10193 is the target
12:34:06 <FireFly> I like how the internal programming language has an article on wikipedia, but not the application itself
12:35:00 <b_jonas> FireFly: well the application is crap
12:35:52 <b_jonas> FireFly: also recall the legend that says lisp has supposed to eventually have a normal input syntax, but the parenthesis stuff was good enough that it remained
12:37:28 <mroman> parerthesis aren't that bady imo
12:39:07 <b_jonas> mroman: sure. and it's just a funny legend.
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12:39:30 <b_jonas> it's just that the parenthesis had become the most recognizable part
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12:46:32 <b_jonas> I searched for BANCStar in http://rosettacode.org/ and http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ but it seems nobody is programming in it yet :-)
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12:47:58 <FireFly> Ooh. It'd be nice to submit a program to CGSE once we've got this figured out
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12:50:47 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Arithmetic/Integer might be a good start
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12:52:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: or http://rosettacode.org/wiki/String_concatenation
12:56:19 <FireFly> "Go to a Function Key" just how are you supposed to branch to keys?
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13:26:44 <mroman> FireFly: You can also branch to ASCII keys
13:26:53 <mroman> whatever that's supposed to mean
13:26:58 <mroman> I think it's like GOTO PAGE
13:27:52 <mroman> 8500 with M3 = 40XX is apparentely goto ASCII thingy
13:28:09 <mroman> There's a Multi-task menu
13:28:17 <mroman> so maybe there's some multi-tasking involved ;P
13:28:34 <b_jonas> maybe there's a dialog tab for each function key?
13:33:10 <FireFly> This C code reminds me of vim's source
13:33:31 <FireFly> though this is at least commented
13:43:18 <FireFly> I guess they're not all that similar, on second thought
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13:55:36 <mroman> if p^x == 1 then p^(x*y) == 1?
13:57:04 <mroman> modulo something that is
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14:01:55 <mhi^> FireFly: Actually Vim's source code is commented good enough (IMHO), it's just the pre-K&R syntax that makes it atrocious. :)
14:02:36 <FireFly> and the globals, and the ifdefs
14:03:03 <FireFly> and the really long functions and source files...
14:04:05 <mhi^> Bram doens't like refactoring. Code has to evolve naturally or something...
14:07:46 <FreeFull> mroman: I can't think of any cases where that wouldn't be the case, with real numbers at least
14:08:27 <FreeFull> That only works if y is an intger
14:08:41 <FreeFull> mroman: What if you had (-1)^2
14:09:56 <mroman> does that imply that z^(x*(y^(k+1))) is also 1?
14:10:31 <mroman> although empirical evidence suggests so
14:10:57 <FreeFull> Well, it would imply that if z was a positive number
14:11:20 <mroman> so they are all positive numbers
14:11:45 <FreeFull> If it's all positive or 0, then yes, it would imply that the other expression is also 1
14:11:56 <mroman> I just don't see why it implies that
14:12:20 <FreeFull> There are two cases where z^a = 1
14:12:41 <FreeFull> That's if you restrict yourself to non-negative numbers
14:15:37 <mroman> 3^1980 `mod` 15841 is 1
14:15:51 <mroman> that is 3^(495*4) `mod` 15841
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14:17:47 <FreeFull> If you take the x to be 2 and 495 to be y
14:18:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Rand.Next()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39787&oldid=39758 * Ais523 * (+435) not possible to compile arbitrary BF into it; might be curly-L-complete, depending on the RNG in question
14:18:10 <FreeFull> I bet there is a simpler example
14:18:22 <mroman> it holds for 3^(495*(2^k))) though
14:18:59 <mroman> i.e. once you found a k, so that the term yields 1
14:19:03 <mroman> increasing k won't change the value
14:19:13 <mroman> which is because you square it
14:19:17 <mroman> and 1 squared is still 1
14:19:47 <mroman> that's from miller-rabin btw
14:20:13 <mroman> once you found z^(x*(y^k)) is one, you don't have to check any other k
14:20:57 <mroman> (y is 2 for the miler-rabin case)
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14:32:32 <mroman> x^(a*y^(k+1)) is 1 if x^(a*y^k) is 1
14:32:57 <mroman> because x^(a*y^(k+1)) = x^(a*y*y^k) = (x^(a*y^k))^y
14:33:07 <mroman> and (x^(a*y^k)) = 1 means that 1^y = 1
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14:36:56 <mroman> There are Data Model Commands o_O
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14:50:29 <FreeFull> mroman: Didn't we already show that it's not true mod N
14:51:43 <mroman> it's true for at least all positive integers
14:52:41 <mroman> if x^(a*y^k) == 1 then x^(a*y^(k+1)) is also 1
14:53:41 <FreeFull> If x is 3, a is 2 and y is 495...
14:54:21 <mroman> x^(a*y*y^k) = x^(a*y^(k+1))
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14:55:17 <FreeFull> Wait, what were we getting up there then?
14:55:30 <mroman> x^(a*y*y^k) = x^(a*y^(k+1)) = (x^(a*y^k))^y
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14:56:02 <mroman> and (x^(a*y^k))^y is 1 if (x^(a*y^k)) is 1
14:56:06 <mroman> because 1^y is always 1
14:56:11 <FreeFull> Oh, I was multiplying by 2, not 4
14:56:43 <FreeFull> ghci gets stuck on 3^(4*495^3)
14:56:49 <FreeFull> To be fair, it is a really big number
14:57:13 <mroman> also (p-1)^2 mod p is always 1
14:57:46 <mroman> generally (p-r)^2 mod p is r^2
14:57:56 <mroman> I can't abuse this to modsqrt
14:58:14 <FreeFull> About 2.314751381666169e8 digits
14:58:28 <mroman> You should probably use modpow :)
14:58:35 <mroman> if haskell has such a thing
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15:00:53 <mroman> and it's actually a small number
15:01:08 <mroman> compared to what actual numbers you'd use in real world applications
15:01:30 <mroman> probably not in bancstar though
15:02:05 <mroman> although it looks like you have to give the length of a number in digits
15:13:14 <FreeFull> Remembering that googol only has 100 digits
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16:17:19 <mroman> googol is a baby number
16:18:01 <mroman> 100 digits isn't really that much
16:18:58 <lambdabot> arising from the ambiguity check for ‘e_1210100’
16:20:41 <mroman> compared to 4096 bit keys that's probably way larger :D
16:22:41 <mroman> 2^4096 is larger than 10^100
16:23:38 <b_jonas> > logBase 10 (2^2096 :: Integer)
16:23:39 <lambdabot> No instance for (GHC.Float.Floating GHC.Integer.Type.Integer)
16:23:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Float.logBase’
16:23:46 <b_jonas> > logBase 10 (2^2096 :: Double)
16:23:56 <mroman> > (100*(log 10))/log(2)
16:24:03 <b_jonas> anyway, it's around 0.303*4096
16:31:13 <mroman> also depending on how large an ALPHA can be
16:31:25 <mroman> they could've stored their string constant in one large ALPHA
16:31:38 <mroman> and possibly extract the strings they need later on in the code
16:31:50 <mroman> although that might not be better by that much :D
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16:39:01 <zzo38> mroman: No, I think they use the CONSTANT type for string constants, probably?
16:48:09 <zzo38> Although they could store multiple string constants and extract them later; such a thing is done on the first page of C16LNAPP in order to extract only one letter.
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16:57:28 <FireFly> zzo38: do you have a document with what you've figured out so far?
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16:57:53 <zzo38> No, I have not written such a thing, but you can try searching these IRC log (which is no longer available on HackEgo, however).
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17:18:25 <nooodl> "<mroman> what the hell <mroman> 2^4096 is larger than 10^100" <-- it gets clearer if you consider 2^4096 = 16^1024 > 10^100
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17:21:09 <Bike> "exponentials grow pretty fast, huh"
17:21:41 <mroman> nooodl: I can't even calculate 2*13 in my head
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17:22:17 <subleq> zomg, #esoteric has lambdabot
17:24:32 <mroman> I can't handle numbers well ;)
17:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ok so i came up with a screwy thought experiment the other day
17:25:16 <Phantom_Hoover> suppose you take a swimming pool and fit an airtight seal over the top of it
17:25:51 <Phantom_Hoover> then you drill a 1cm wide hole in the top, and to that attach a 20m long, open-ended tube
17:26:47 <Phantom_Hoover> if you then hold that tube straight upright and fill it with water, that tiny bit of extra water (less than 20 litres) will increase the pressure inside the entire swimming pool to 3 atmospheres
17:27:26 <Phantom_Hoover> the only reason i can believe this is that the alternatives sound even sillier
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17:29:13 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: the water falls out of the tube and into the swimming pool, because the pressure inside the swimming pool is less than 3 atmospheres
17:29:38 <Phantom_Hoover> the swimming pool's sealed tight over the top, remember
17:29:49 <ais523_> oh, you mean the swimming pool's already full of water?
17:29:53 <Phantom_Hoover> (assume there's no air between the surface of the pool and the seal, too)
17:29:53 <ais523_> in that case, exactly the same thing happens
17:30:03 <ais523_> the pressure in the swimming pool increases slightly
17:30:09 <ais523_> and most of the water falls out of the tube
17:30:24 <ais523_> into the pool, which increases in pressure to compensate
17:30:34 <ais523_> eventually, you end up with a very small amount of water left in the tube
17:30:50 <ais523_> what do you think water pressure /is/?
17:30:55 <ais523_> it's caused by the compression of wate
17:31:08 <int-e> So how big is your pool?
17:31:08 <ais523_> if you assume that a) water pressure exists, and b) water is incompressible, that explains why you're getting silly results
17:31:46 <ais523_> or put it another way: assume I have two completely sealed boxes of water, one at 1 atmosphere of pressure, the other at 3 atmospheres of pressure
17:31:50 <Phantom_Hoover> no seriously, the pressure might be caused by compression but that compression is negligible in terms of volume
17:32:04 <ais523_> what is the difference between the boxes that determines the difference in pressure?
17:32:10 <ais523_> answer: one has more water molecules than the other
17:32:15 <Phantom_Hoover> this is why when you're scuba diving you never get crushed, your body's largely made of incompressible water
17:32:41 <Phantom_Hoover> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water#Compressibility
17:32:44 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: you don't get crushed because the water inside your body increases in pressure to match the water outside
17:32:53 <int-e> If you take a serious pool, 25*20*3m, then if I haven't messed up my calculations you'll need something like 150 liters of water to compensate for 200kPa of extra pressure.
17:33:00 <Phantom_Hoover> which by your logic would require that it should be compressible
17:33:31 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: your link doesn't contradict what I or int-e are saying
17:33:46 <Phantom_Hoover> "The low compressibility of non-gases, and of water in particular, leads to their often being assumed as incompressible. The low compressibility of water means that even in the deep oceans at 4 km depth, where pressures are 40 MPa, there is only a 1.8% decrease in volume."
17:34:05 <ais523_> the fact that water compressibility is low means that the pressure will increase quite rapidly as you put more water into the swimming pool
17:34:23 <ais523_> but if it's only a very small extra proportion, like in your experiment
17:34:28 <ais523_> it won't have that much extra to increase
17:34:50 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, it's possible btw that i'm misinterpreting the formula for pressure in a static fluid
17:34:52 <int-e> (150l, of course, is ridculously small compared to the 1.5 million liters that the pool contains)
17:35:27 <ais523_> or, well, I guess if you "fill the tube with water"
17:35:39 <ais523_> then that involves adding enough water into the tube to increase the pressure of the swimming pool to 3atm
17:35:52 <ais523_> which will be more than the capacity of the tube, but not by all that much because water compresses poorly
17:35:58 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, specifically, the density * gravitational field strength * depth formula
17:36:38 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: that's just for calculating the pressure. if you turn it into a proper intregral it's even true for compressible fluids
17:37:57 <Phantom_Hoover> so my reasoning is that because it's 20m from the pool to the surface of the water (in the tube), the pressure in the pool is the same as if the entire pool were 20m deep
17:38:09 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: it's just that you're multiplying something ridiculously small (compressibility of water) by something ridiculously large (the surface area of the pool divided by that of the hole and cylinder above)
17:38:29 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: yes, that's true
17:38:48 <int-e> but if you just add enough water to fill the tube, the tube won't be full.
17:39:08 <ais523_> and if you keep pouring water in until the tube is full, then you will have 3atm of pressure at the bottom of the pool
17:39:08 <int-e> because the water in the pool is compressed just a litte.
17:39:26 <int-e> ais523_: at the top actually :)
17:39:44 <int-e> (oh. depending on how you hold the tube.)
17:39:57 <ais523_> int-e: err, of the top of the pool itself, yeah
17:40:03 <ais523_> the pressure at the top of the tube is 1atm, obviously
17:43:19 <ais523_> hmm, now I'm reading some of the rest of the article Phantom_Hoover linked to
17:43:29 <ais523_> and thought "huh, I'd never wondered before today whether ice conducted electricity"
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17:46:54 <zzo38> When typing an address on an envelope, is it supposed to be Pica or Elite?
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17:49:17 <ais523_> zzo38: whichever one fits 10 characters to the inch, IIRC
17:50:09 <zzo38> The instructions say Pica is ten character per inch
17:50:43 <ais523_> in that case, Elite must be 12 per inch
17:50:55 <Phantom_Hoover> (though... idk, if you used a less compressible fluid...)
17:52:09 <ais523_> Phantom_Hoover: this is like the thought experiment of a perfectly inelastic floor
17:52:40 <ais523_> which makes anything placed on it much more fragile, as a result
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17:53:57 <mroman> because it doesn't absorb impact of stuff?
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17:55:21 <ais523_> and ofc, it's impossible to place a perfectly inelastic object on a perfectly inelastic floor unless you slow it down to a speed of exactly 0 as it touches
17:55:25 <ais523_> otherwise, one or the other mustb reak
17:55:36 <ais523_> then go on breaking, and go on breaking, ad infinitum
17:55:55 <ais523_> until they end up as dust so fine any elasticity properties become meaningless
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17:56:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i did run through the calculations, but with a small pool and a more incompressible fluid you could still recreate the desired effect
17:57:28 <ais523_> why not just hire a swimming pool and find out?
17:57:44 <ais523_> (the hard part is finding a seal for the top which can withstand 3atm of pressure)
17:58:27 <nooodl> http://golf.shinh.org/reveal.rb?easy+regexp/irori_1173885553&hs i love haskell code like this am i bad
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17:59:12 <zzo38> I wouldn't think to make you love Haskell code like whatever make you bad
17:59:35 <ais523_> is that third line defining an operator #?
17:59:44 <ais523_> IIRC, in OCaml, you have to use prefix notation to define an operator
17:59:45 <nooodl> the ones below it define %
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18:02:18 <nooodl> oh my god: the m -> (%) -> (#) -> m mutual recursion. it's so good
18:02:57 <nooodl> what single ascii chars are available as operators if you have just Prelude loaded?
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18:04:09 <nooodl> i know % ? and # are popular in code golf, that i know of
18:04:46 <nooodl> oh i guess & is available. because that's a lens thing
18:04:56 <nooodl> (imagines Lens golf, shudders)
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18:06:54 <Jafet> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2
18:07:28 <nooodl> i think it's (%), (?), (#), (&), (!)
18:07:29 <Melvar> > let 2 + 2 = 5 in 1 + 1
18:07:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-13: Non-exhaustive patterns in function +
18:08:27 <nooodl> also, wonderful unicode punctuation, which anagol, however, counts as multiple bytes
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18:09:37 <zzo38> nooodl: Which it should, but maybe it can still help if you use the high codepoint symbols for less used ones
18:09:48 <zzo38> (Anagol also uses binary formats too)
18:09:49 <nooodl> > let (☃) = (+) in 2 ☃ 2
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18:14:23 <ais523_> if it uses UTF-8, though, you're wasting bytes by using non-ASCII characters
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18:16:19 <Jafet> > generalCategory '☃'
18:31:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39788&oldid=39738 * GermanyBoy * (+449)
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18:35:38 <zzo38> ais523_: Yes, that is it. But it is what I am saying, one characters with more than seven bits, will use more bytes to encode using UTF-8 so you would use those for less often codes.
18:36:32 <zzo38> If you are using a programming language/interpreter/compiler that doesn't require UTF-8, then you can do a lot more too, since you are not limited to UTF-8 encoding and can therefore shorten some things.
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18:40:06 <zzo38> I had idea about writing a Japanese-style manga using some help (although I probably never would do so, actually). It is called "Pokemon Card", and in it Professor Oak invents Pokemon Card, and the pokemons can talk (including the ones pictured on the cards) too, and many strange thing like you find in Akagi too.
18:40:19 <zzo38> Would such a things interest you at all? I am just curious.
18:41:25 <Melvar> ( update S [True,"foo",Z]
18:41:25 <idris-bot> [True, "foo", 1] : HVect [Bool, String, Nat]
18:41:32 <Melvar> ( update not [True,"foo",Z]
18:41:33 <idris-bot> [False, "foo", 0] : HVect [Bool, String, Nat]
18:42:01 <Melvar> ( update (++ "bar") [True,"foo",Z]
18:42:01 <idris-bot> [True, "foobar", 0] : HVect [Bool, String, Nat]
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19:12:26 <shachaf> #define __NR_oldolduname 59
19:16:07 <olsner> fungot: what's your old old name?
19:16:07 <fungot> olsner: they decided not to waste any brain cells storing obscure unix silliness).
19:16:22 <olsner> fungot: p. good decision
19:16:23 <fungot> olsner: now i started that mud as roleplayer make one cringe? back in seattle, and hang around here
19:20:17 <olsner> 222 is not unused, it's just [REDACTED]
19:20:28 <ais523_> shachaf: are you having as much fun with syscall.h as I was with the Perl headers?
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19:22:29 <shachaf> I was just looking through it, but it turns out it has all sorts of jams.
19:22:38 <shachaf> What about the Perl headers?
19:22:54 <ais523_> they're massively inconsistent in capitalization style
19:23:08 <ais523_> and have some great names, too
19:23:11 <ais523_> <+ais523_> also, so far, my favourite macro name inside the Perl core is "SV_CHECK_THINKFIRST_COW_DROP"
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19:32:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39789 * GermanyBoy * (+5210) Created page with "'''Lii''' is a declarative object-oriented language created by [[User:GermanyBoy]] in 2014. It is named after a fictional 31st century tea company Lii Tea (from a SciFi book, ..."
19:33:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:GermanyBoy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39790&oldid=39788 * GermanyBoy * (+45) /* Summer languages 2014 */ Lii
19:33:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39791&oldid=39784 * GermanyBoy * (+10) /* L */
19:34:43 <ais523_> come to think of it, the reason that macro's required is almost as silly as the name
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19:42:47 <FireFly> I won't even ask the inevitable question
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19:48:14 <olsner> Bicyclidine: whatever the deal, it's no big deal
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20:05:46 <Bicyclidine> everything in math.h is deterministic, right? i'm losing my mind here
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20:06:30 <olsner> nah, it's mostly just undefined behavior
20:14:59 <Slereah_> IIRC math.h might have some uncertainty in the last bit or somesuch
20:15:19 <Slereah_> Because they can't guarantee precision on all the bits for all special functions
20:15:25 <Slereah_> And so it might depend on the implementation
20:16:22 <Slereah_> Although the basic functions have a precision that is guaranteed to be deterministic
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20:17:30 <Bicyclidine> i'm getting results divergent by a multiple of 10^280 or so, is the thing
20:18:19 <Bicyclidine> also i can no longer reproduce the nondeterminism, so, thinking my computer's haunted or such
20:18:43 <Slereah_> The gods of computers are smiling on you
20:19:18 <Bicyclidine> no, it stopped nondtermining on the results with 2800 dB
20:20:07 <int-e> > 1024/log 10 * log 2
20:20:45 <olsner> if math.h follows IEEE (which may or may not be required by C), then I think most operations are defined to give the exact result according to some rules
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20:22:42 <olsner> but some stuff might not have such requirements?
20:25:48 <oerjan> olsner: i recall from previous discussion that there are some operations where it is not known how to calculate the perfectly rounded result, so either of the neighboring closest numbers is accepted.
20:26:13 <oerjan> *efficiently calculate
20:27:09 <oerjan> trigonometry and stuff, iirc
20:27:49 <Bicyclidine> alas IEEE does not define the "f(n) if machine n halts, otherwise zero" operation
20:29:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39792&oldid=39717 * 63.251.123.2 * (+48) add link to IDEOne copy
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20:31:07 <olsner> f(n) = 0 is easier to handle
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20:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39793&oldid=39792 * 63.251.123.2 * (+0) is [[:Category:Brainfuck equivalents]]
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20:40:46 <mroman> what the hell is Photo Library?
20:43:17 <mroman> those Phising mails get more confusing
20:43:40 <mroman> you're not even sure whether it's a serious phishing mail or a serious extortion mail or a serious joke
20:44:15 <mroman> it' doesn't even say which website it tries to phish
20:47:59 <oerjan> mroman: did someone point out yet that p^(x*y) == (p^x)^y ?
20:48:42 <int-e> ooh, freefall has a stand-up comedian :)
20:48:58 <oerjan> well then obviously if p^x is 1, so is p^(x*y)
20:49:07 <oerjan> (and this all works mod N)
20:49:43 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (GHC.Real.Integral b0)
20:49:44 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘GHC.Real.^’
20:49:44 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: GHC.Num.Num a => a at Top level
20:49:44 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
20:50:05 <mroman> yeah. the tough part was figuring out that you can rewrite a^(x*y^(k+1)) as a^(x*(y^k)*y)
20:51:07 <mroman> (I'm not very good at match)
20:51:16 <mroman> also not very good at spelling
20:51:24 <mroman> although I can write 120 WPM
20:52:04 <int-e> that wasn't so hard :P
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20:52:15 <int-e> I overuse those smileys, don't I.
20:52:28 <Taneb> Also, I went to Alton Towers today
20:52:38 <mroman> 120 words per minute feels really fast
20:52:47 <mroman> but compared to the guys who can write 200 WPM it's slow as hell
20:52:58 <mroman> seeing as the average internet user is somewhere around 60 WPM
20:53:07 <int-e> > 120^2/200 -- hell, in words per minute
20:53:22 <mroman> which I don't really beleive but that's what does websites say
20:53:28 <mroman> 60 WPM is terribly slow
20:53:31 <mroman> I can do that one handed
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20:54:04 <int-e> I should learn to touch-type. I've been thinking that for 15 years :)
20:54:18 <mroman> on touchscreen keyboards?
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20:54:30 <int-e> In the meantime I tend to type faster than I think.
20:54:47 <mroman> I tend to write phonetically
20:54:47 <int-e> mroman: no, on normal mechanical ones
20:54:52 <Taneb> mroman, yeah, same
20:55:03 <olsner> then you have no real reason to learn touch typing, except perhaps to get slightly more time left over for thinking
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20:55:09 <Taneb> I almost wrote "advantage" instead of "about it" a few minutes ago
20:55:30 <mroman> what's touch-type then?
20:55:44 <olsner> it could be more (or less) ergonomic to do touch typing than ad-hoc typing though
20:55:47 <int-e> typing with most fingers resting on the home row
20:56:05 <mroman> "d) is typing without using the sense of sight to find the keys."
20:56:22 <int-e> unlike hunt-and-peck typing where the hands wander all over the keyboard.
20:56:33 <int-e> (often but not always at horrible speed)
20:56:36 <mroman> home row is a stupid concept I think
20:56:54 <mroman> and you can ask the fastest typer in the world and he'll say the same thing
20:57:12 <mroman> your hands are supposed to wander all over the place
20:57:30 <mroman> Bicyclidine: I don't really know if he's officially the fastest
20:58:00 <mroman> the way I type is an extension of hunt-and-peck I think
20:58:04 <mroman> I don't use the home row
20:58:15 <mroman> my fingers wander all over the place when necessary
20:58:24 <mroman> but I can type without looking at the keyboard of course
20:58:49 <mroman> The idea is, that you can use your index finger
20:58:59 <mroman> close your eyes, move the index finger to your nose
20:59:11 <mroman> and then somebody says a key and you can press that key with your index finger
20:59:22 <int-e> mroman: could you check whether you mean WPM or CPM please?
20:59:35 <int-e> characters per second
21:00:34 <mroman> where a word is defined as 5 characters
21:00:49 <mroman> that's 600 characters per minute
21:00:58 <mroman> not counting spaces I think
21:01:18 <mroman> that's 10 characters per second
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21:02:29 <mroman> To type that fast you memorize word patterns and just spill them out very fast
21:02:35 <mroman> by "twitching" your finger
21:02:59 <mroman> stuff like contest, content, sentence can be written incredibly fast
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21:03:38 <mroman> other words like quickly are harder for me to type
21:03:54 <mroman> mostly due to two vowels in a row
21:04:17 <int-e> (including a free typo!)
21:04:18 <mroman> I can only use my left index finger to type
21:04:34 <mroman> which is why I can't write words with two or more vowels in a row fast
21:04:45 <mroman> (left index finger to type vowels)
21:05:29 <mroman> also obviously I can't keep up 120 WPM for more than two minutes :D
21:07:15 <mroman> I can type on it better because my left hand is clumsy
21:07:32 <mroman> and dvorak enables me to type vowels with my left hand and rest I can write with my very nimble right hand
21:07:58 <mroman> also my pinky finger are somewhat "trigger fingerish"
21:08:06 <mroman> so I dont' really use them to type too
21:08:15 <mroman> which breaks the whole home row system anyway
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21:09:20 <mroman> int-e: are you using qwerty?
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21:09:54 <mroman> I'm still waiting for text to speech programming
21:10:09 <mroman> which will probably bring other programming languages to live
21:10:41 <mroman> saying int space main paranthesis right int space argc comma char asteriks asteriks ... is tedious
21:11:14 <int-e> yes I'm using a qwerty layout keyboard
21:12:14 <int-e> (which is already slightly odd in Austria)
21:13:18 <int-e> I'm from Germany originally. Close enough.
21:13:31 <mroman> Dann kannst du ja Deutsch :)
21:13:59 <mroman> It's "ostrich" actually...
21:14:16 <int-e> In any case I use English all the time.
21:14:41 <int-e> Being single, yes, certainly.
21:15:09 <int-e> (reading english books, being on english speaking IRC channels, reading... well, all sorts of computer related stuff)
21:15:30 <mroman> reading english books, watching tv series in english, movies in english
21:15:39 <mroman> I actually think in english
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21:16:02 <mroman> and by thinking I mean those monologues you do in your brain
21:16:15 <int-e> I know what you mean
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21:18:47 <mroman> I only use it "written" though
21:19:53 <int-e> I'm working in academia, and a few of my colleagues don't even speak german.
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