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01:08:49 <Sgeo> I'm a bit in shock about this elixir-lang.org unit testing example
01:09:09 <Sgeo> It's a testing DSL not written in weird pseudoenglish!
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02:40:35 <zzo38> I made a table to compare different online quiz systems. There are some details I have not been able to determine. Do you know? Furthermore, maybe I can also add more rows/columns based on your requests/investigations, too?
02:48:33 <zzo38> See gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt or http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt for more information please.
02:48:41 <zzo38> Do you know of any that I have missed?
02:52:19 <Sgeo> The Windows App store does not have any apps that support gopher
02:56:24 <zzo38> Then don't use the Windows App store. Or, download the file over HTTP. (Or, both!)
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03:28:19 <zzo38> Which online quiz system have you used at all?
03:29:32 <Sgeo> help i keep calling spiderman superman
03:31:06 <Sgeo> pretty sure i started typing superman first even in that line
03:39:38 <Sgeo> help im addicted to stacksort
03:42:17 <Sgeo> help im addicted to starting statements with help
03:43:01 <shachaf> zzo38: I think I used Internet Quiz Engine once.
03:43:43 <shachaf> kmc: whoa, https://gist.github.com/kmcallister/5342238
03:47:03 <zzo38> shachaf: You have used? Have you used others, and whether or not, what is your opinion of such things please?
03:47:17 <shachaf> I don't remember whether I used it.
03:47:37 <zzo38> O, you only *thought* you used it...
03:48:04 <zzo38> Well, what is your opinion of that chart, then?
03:48:43 <shachaf> Was it running on your gopher server?
03:49:13 <zzo38> Internet Quiz Engine is running on my gopher server.
03:49:23 <shachaf> Unfortunately I don't have a gopher client here.
03:50:07 <zzo38> Write one if you want; is not too difficult to do. You can read the chart downloaded from HTTP or gopher; it is available on both.
03:50:39 <zzo38> (And simply downloading a file from gopher is pretty easy; to pipe "echo" into "nc" and then piping or redirecting the output of that, will work just fine.)
03:51:40 <zzo38> For example, to download that chart over gopher, connect to port 70 of my computer, and then send "textfile/miscellaneous/onlinequiz.txt" (without the quotation marks) and a carriage return and line feed. The response is entirely the file; there is no header.
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03:53:59 <shachaf> Can I just send a line feed?
03:54:53 <zzo38> My own server will accept that, although to be standards-compliant you should use both.
03:55:11 <zzo38> (Other servers are not guaranteed to accept it.)
03:55:21 <zzo38> (Although they probably do anyways.)
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04:05:02 <Sgeo> Sounds almost like HTTP 0.9
04:05:33 <Sgeo> Which iirc causes security problems for the web in its mere existence somehow. I forget how though
04:06:03 <kmc> yeah, that's mentioned in _The Tangled Web_
04:06:04 <newsham> was it lack of content-type header?
04:06:28 <zzo38> HTTP 0.9 does not cause security problems by itself, but in combination with other things, it is capable of doing so.
04:06:30 <kmc> you can make somebody go to http://whatever:25 and it'll try to interpret the SMTP server's response as HTML
04:06:43 <kmc> and sometimes you can manage to get javascript in there somehow
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04:07:05 <newsham> but also if you get javascript in :25 thats a diff origin than :80
04:07:12 <kmc> I forget what all is going on here
04:07:17 <Sgeo> I don't think it is for cookies
04:07:17 <zzo38> kmc: That isn't really much of a security issue, *as long as cookies specify the port number too*
04:07:19 <kmc> I think cookies have different rules than other origin stuff
04:07:21 <Sgeo> It is for XMLHttpRequest
04:07:22 <kmc> it's all completely fucked basically
04:07:29 <Sgeo> This is why fuck cookies
04:07:33 <newsham> although maybe not on all versions of IE.. i know ie has some weird things with origins sometimes
04:07:42 <newsham> ie. I believe localhost is one origin, no matter what port, in IE
04:08:08 <Sgeo> newsham: you need to send P3P headers to do cross-origin domain cookie stuff, I ... think. Which may make IE more secure than Chrome/Firefox in some circumstances.
04:08:10 <newsham> if you dont use any "ambient credentials" lots of web problems go away
04:08:14 <newsham> (so do lots of web solutions :)
04:08:17 <zzo38> Also, full HTTP clients shouldn't use headerless requests/responses; only lightweight clients should do so.
04:08:34 <newsham> sgeo: but localhost:80 and localhost:25 are not cross-origin
04:10:19 <newsham> i learned a new web thing today.. "<plaintext>" tag.. not closeable.. "deprecated" and unsupported, but works on all the big browsers
04:10:21 <zzo38> newsham: Using SSH for interactive service and authentication and security, causes much better security. One possible security issue would then be escape codes to change key bindings, although that can be fixed really easily. Another possible security issue would then be trusted X forwarding, but you can just disable trusted X forwarding.
04:10:30 <zzo38> newsham: I have used <plaintext> actually
04:10:33 <newsham> (only thing I found so far that didnt honor it properly was lynx)
04:10:38 <zzo38> So I knew it about a lot
04:11:15 <kmc> newsham: yeah, it's in the HTML5 Living Standard: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tokenization.html#plaintext-state
04:11:18 <zzo38> Security issues between servers don't exist with SSH.
04:11:23 <Sgeo> Isn't there old HTML stuff othat also still exists?
04:11:31 <Sgeo> What was that input thing that took over the browser?
04:11:38 <newsham> zzo38: in fairness if you're going to compare apples to apples, you should prob compare ssh to using client certs in https
04:11:41 <kmc> which specifies exact handling of a lot of erroneous markup that is officially deprecated and unsupported and wrong
04:11:56 * kmc is currently implementing the html5 syntax standard...
04:11:59 <Sgeo> Well, not took over. But it was one input field a document
04:12:10 <newsham> hmm, its in html5 standard? MDN said its "deprecated" since "html 2.0"
04:12:29 <kmc> I don't think it is
04:12:31 <newsham> thanks for the info, i didnt know
04:12:41 <kmc> the point of HTML5 is to provide precise error handling behavior for all kinds of bad deprecated wrong things
04:12:44 <zzo38> newsham: I know HTTPS supports certificates, but there is still HTML and HTTP and stuff to deal with!!! Also, the authentication in HTTPS isn't quite best anyways
04:12:56 <kmc> there's one part of the spec that says what constitutes "correct" HTML and another part which says how browsers have to handle incorrect HTML
04:13:08 <zzo38> But about <plaintext>, you could use XML to avoid such issue?
04:13:09 <newsham> zzo38: how is the auth in https unlike the auth in ssh?
04:13:16 <kmc> you can feed poorly written geocities HTML from 1995 into a modern HTML5 parser and get as plausible a "correct" result as any
04:13:19 <zzo38> newsham: It is a subset, I think.
04:13:30 <zzo38> Actually, not quite.
04:13:52 <newsham> fwiw, I believe using client certs (and properly verifying both client and server certs) is pretty good auth in https
04:13:53 <zzo38> HTTPS supports HTTP authentication as well as its own, but SSH authentication supports more secure methods than just simple passwords.
04:13:53 <kmc> if you feed it into a HTML5 /validator/ it will scream bloody murder
04:14:06 <newsham> https isnt passwords, its certificate-based
04:14:08 <zzo38> You can also use public/private key pairs, and that stuff
04:14:09 <Sgeo> Does <ISINDEX> exist in HTML5?
04:14:25 <zzo38> newsham: You still need a password to log in, though, even though a certificate is used.
04:14:47 <newsham> not necessarily. a server could accept a client certificate as authentication without requiring a password
04:15:12 <newsham> they often dont solely because they arent implemented at the same layers (ie. some apps dont "know"that client certs are being used, and so require their own auth layer)
04:15:22 <newsham> but that would also be the case when tunneling http over ssh
04:15:41 <zzo38> newsham: I didn't know about client certificate, although yes I can see the problem.
04:15:42 <Bike> oh man, i remember isindex
04:15:54 <zzo38> But the solution is *don't* tunnel HTTP over SSH; tunnel the application directly.
04:15:58 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/isin.shtml
04:15:58 <Bike> Sgeo: wikipedia says it was invalid in 4 strict, i don't know how that transfers to 5
04:16:51 <Bike> i think my favorite little bit of the historical cruft is how <u> and <i> are retrofitted into the whole presentation/content whatever distinction
04:17:10 <Sgeo> I think <nextid> was for use by some HTML generator?
04:18:28 <Sgeo> "This element served to enable the NeXT web designing tool to generate automatic NAME labels for its anchors"
04:18:47 <Sgeo> "It is also probably one of the least understood of all of the early HTML elements, being poorly documented, not explained in any depth anywhere, and those who obviously understood how it worked couldn't be bothered to explain it to the rest of us."
04:18:58 <Bike> NeXT had web tools, huh
04:19:08 <Bike> oh btw did everyone hear that xanadu has a working demo now.
04:19:11 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/nextid.html
04:19:19 <Sgeo> Who is the pope anyway?
04:19:29 <Bike> francis i, i think
04:19:30 <newsham> bike: isnt <blink> the best historic tag?
04:19:55 <Bike> Sgeo: ok the top of the site looks like alt-catholics and they're nutso.
04:20:33 <Bike> newsham: blink wasn't even standard!! inferior.
04:20:52 <newsham> the web was never very compliant :)
04:21:08 <Sgeo> Bike: the rest of the site was apparently built using legacy HTML
04:21:11 <zzo38> HTML/HTTPS is just a big mess in these times.
04:21:11 <Bike> u and i are funny because they tried to hammer them out back in 4 but then they decided they, like, totally had semantic meaning, man
04:21:12 <Sgeo> No wonder the interest
04:21:12 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/cgi/topical.pl
04:21:46 <Bike> there's an alt-catholic church near me that i found out about because splc classed them as a hate group, so like, yeah
04:21:51 <newsham> isnt <b> pretty much formatting too?
04:22:15 <zzo38> Bike: What is an "alt-catholic church" and how is it hate groups too?
04:22:33 <newsham> html is in generall pretty lame.
04:22:50 <Sgeo> Did... did hypertext not exist in the earliest versionss of hypertext markup language?
04:22:51 <Bike> zzo38: my incorrect term for catholics who reject various modern catholic rules, most usually the Vatican II conference thingie, so they're out of communion
04:23:00 <Sgeo> I do not understand why these words are not hypertext
04:23:00 <newsham> ages ago back in college the cs dept guys would write html with a preprocessor that was very much tex-like. macros and similar syntax
04:23:20 <newsham> {b this is bold} or something like that
04:23:42 <newsham> most importantly though -- supported macros
04:23:45 <Sgeo> Why, the pope, why?
04:23:49 <newsham> why html doesnt do macros is beyond me
04:23:52 <zzo38> There are security issues, very complicated implementation-related stuff, and so much confusions, even problem with different kind of user interfaces you need separate files for each one, etc.
04:24:49 <zzo38> Gopher doesn't have any of these problems (although it doesn't have security either, but it doesn't really need it; if you want it anyways you can tunnel it over SSH). For applications with authentication and interactivity and so on, SSH should be used.
04:24:54 <Bike> apparently the usual term is "traditionalist"
04:25:35 <zzo38> Gopher is suitable such as well for desktop, touch-screen, even scantron form, all without needing separate file on the server for each one.
04:25:45 <Bike> as for hate group, i looked at their website, it had stuff about how they'd throw you out if you were a woman wearing pants or something so i stopped
04:26:25 <newsham> i kind of like the plan9/acme style of "hypertext" more than the html style.
04:26:37 <Bike> xanadu maaaaan
04:26:46 <newsham> or at least it seems more promising.. html has really been explored a lot more fully
04:27:13 <newsham> but basically you write rules that say how text is to be interpretted, and those rules apply automatically to the text, without explicit markup
04:27:33 <newsham> so for example if there's an "http://www.foo.com/bar" it knows "thats an url for a web page, use the browser"
04:27:37 <zzo38> I tend to use plain text documents for a lot of things; it mean you can download and view file just fine even without web-browser software.
04:27:46 <Bike> i think hypertext should work as bush originally envisioned it. microfilm.
04:27:47 <newsham> and if there's a "/file/path:lineno" it knows "thats a file location, use an editor"
04:28:04 <newsham> and if you dont like the linking rules, you tweak them to suit your needs
04:28:04 <Bike> so... url schema?
04:28:53 <kmc> zzo38: what do you think of plan9?
04:29:00 <kmc> it seems like your kind of thing
04:29:13 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/lostHTML.htm
04:29:20 <Sgeo> So, this person knows of HTML 5.0
04:30:14 <zzo38> kmc: I don't know much about, but I think it has some good ideas involved certainly. The Plan9 file protocol also would be suitable for example, to connect to hard disks and file servers and stuff using a TCP/IP protocol, whether or not the device natively uses such thing.
04:30:20 <newsham> anyway in plan9 its the "plumber" that does this, and it has support integrated into the acme environment (among other places). docs are here http://swtch.com/plan9port/man/man4/plumber.html
04:31:10 <zzo38> Plan9 is not a bad design.
04:31:32 <Sgeo> What are these <hp0> things?
04:31:42 <Bike> tags of the devil
04:31:45 <kmc> zzo38: qemu lets you share a directory on the host as a 9p filesystem mounted by the guest
04:32:14 <zzo38> kmc: Yes, that is good idea too
04:32:20 <kmc> this might be one of the main uses of 9p anymore
04:32:37 <Bike> "However, protest from the Joe Sixpack programmers"
04:33:01 <kmc> newsham: line numbers are good, I have a small script which lets me write "vim foo.rs:1234" and it will open foo.rs and jump to line 1234
04:33:12 <newsham> yah i have a script like that too :)
04:33:22 <newsham> but still nicer in plan9 just clickign on it
04:33:27 <kmc> it exists in the platonic realm of shell scripts
04:33:39 <newsham> also plan9's supports filename:5-10 and filename:/main/ and other goodies
04:34:19 <newsham> i think 9p is also used by some window manager or other, too (not to mention plan9ports, which is a plan9-like mini environment on modern unix)
04:35:01 <zzo38> You can use multi mouse button for other functions, for example left to copy, middle to paste, right to activate, might be one way.
04:35:15 <kmc> what does filename:/main/ mean?
04:35:22 <newsham> kmc: open file, search regex
04:35:54 <Bike> i remember i thought up a system GUI once that was basically chrome
04:35:57 <Bike> i forget if chromebooks do it
04:36:08 <Sgeo> http://www.the-pope.com/sgmlcraz.html
04:36:10 <Bike> cos i had my computer set up to never have sub-screen windows.
04:36:13 <newsham> nifty thing of having the ability to clikc that, you just put /* see main.c:/main/ */ in your src and now yoru src's have xref hyperlinks
04:36:46 <kmc> Bike: i used to have a windows 98SE install where i told it to launch quake 3 instead of explorer.exe
04:36:49 <newsham> p9 man pages are like that too, you just click on man pages to go to other man pages, or to go straight to the srcs
04:36:50 <kmc> boot2quake3
04:37:01 <Bike> you've probably seen the sysadmin-through-doom thing
04:37:05 <zzo38> newsham: Yes, I can see that can nicely too
04:37:12 <kmc> I enjoyed that a lot as a kid :)
04:37:13 <shachaf> speaking of good things google code search is so good
04:37:21 <newsham> you could prob do that in yyour editor if its html based, but you'dhave to use explicit markup somehow
04:37:23 <shachaf> i wish it still existed externally and searched everything
04:37:29 <newsham> vs. just writing a rule to auto-markup
04:39:00 <newsham> http://vimeo.com/64487176 <- plumber demo on vimeo
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04:40:05 <zzo38> Is it possible to make on Linux virtual console that you can push mouse to copy/paste a text between them, and the PAUSE to pause window, and SCROLL LOCK to do a scrollback by keys (page-up/page-down) and make it buffer rather than display further text?
04:41:18 <newsham> i think you can scrollup on console while it continues to buffer more output
04:41:31 <newsham> you can definitely do it in tmux and screen
04:42:00 <zzo38> I never tried pushing SCROLL LOCK on Linux to see what it does, so I don't know.
04:42:19 <newsham> i think its control-pageup or something like that to scrollback on linux console?
04:42:47 <zzo38> I haven't tried those things either. How do you set the scroll buffer size?
04:45:39 <newsham> baked into kernel srcs i imagine? i dont know offhand
04:46:06 <newsham> http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Keyboard-and-Console-HOWTO-18.html
04:46:54 <Bike> it's kinda funny how x has its own keyboard stuff, so i end up having different layouts for x and console since i haven't bothered with the latter
04:47:40 <newsham> btw, lsub.org guys made a plan9-like system that had an http-like protocol (back to original topci of html and gopher): http://lsub.org/ls/export/opiwp9.pdf
04:47:49 <newsham> kind of like a stripped down and simplified 9p
04:50:19 <Bike> looks like my distro has its own setup for console keyboard configuration wooooo
04:50:21 <zzo38> What is the command to tell aptitude and other package managers to load the packages from a DVD?
04:51:36 <Bike> surely aptitude is agnostic, you just gotta mount the device and do whatever
04:51:49 <Bike> dpkg -i /media/fuckparty2004.deb
04:54:14 <zzo38> How do you tell to temporarily specify to access DVD for its built-in list of packages? I know proxy is possible, as I have seen it done.
04:55:39 <zzo38> I think 7-Zip can also open .deb packages
04:56:07 <zzo38> 7-Zip supports many formats, including a few which are not mentioned in the documentation.
04:58:17 <ion> zzo38: If a DVD has a proper repository, you should be able to use apt-cdrom add. If you just want to install a random .deb file, dpkg --unpack foo.deb && apt-get -f install
04:59:11 <zzo38> In fact, it opens Visual Pinball table files just fine. It also opens sections of a EXE file just fine, too.
04:59:11 <zzo38> Not only was I curious myself, but someone else who was purchasing a laptop computer from Free Geek wanted to know how to do this, too.
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05:01:16 <zzo38> Once, I was trying to download additional music for PySol. For some reason, it was distributed as a Macintosh disk image, but I tried to open it with 7-Zip and it worked.
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05:02:35 <Bike> urgh. reminds me of when i tried marathon mods
05:02:37 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not 7-Zip is available on Linux or Macintosh computers, but probably it can be ported if it isn't.
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05:02:46 <Bike> there's a bonus level that you get by decompressing some hex in the game, twice
05:02:56 <Bike> the catch being the compression format didn't outlive the mac 9
05:03:20 <zzo38> Bike: Did you try 7-Zip? See if it manages to open it.
05:03:58 <Bike> looks like the mac program does open 7z :/
05:04:36 <Bike> the format was proprietary so 7zip would probably have something weird with it
05:04:38 <zzo38> Don't download the "7za" 7-Zip because it is more limited. You need the full version, although you can safely delete the GUI if you do not want it (this is what I did).
05:08:39 <zzo38> If a file contains multiple archive types, you can tell 7-Zip which one to open.
05:09:35 <Bike> anyway back when i tried it seemed like only this program could open it, and possibly only an old version
05:17:23 <madbr> zzo38: the gui is like 80% of why 7zip is good
05:17:35 <madbr> the other 20% being that it supports tons of formats
05:17:51 <zzo38> madbr: I don't need the GUI, though. But it is there if you like it!
05:18:24 <zzo38> I just use the tons of formats, myself, and the command-line interface is actually good how I find it, too.
05:19:15 <madbr> also, integration into the explorer is nice
05:21:40 <zzo38> It can, although I do not need it.
05:24:34 <zzo38> Do you know of any music tracker software with two more windows, a SQL window and a MML compiler window? The SQL window can help for editing and MML window can help for writing music, then.
05:28:18 <madbr> don't know of any trackers using sql or mml
05:30:34 <madbr> usually they are based around a specialized GUI component - the pattern editor (the "grid"), editing music data in a custom binary format
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05:31:34 <zzo38> That can be useful to view and tweak music, although I do not find it useful for composing music at all. It also makes the binary format limited in some ways, since it has to fit on the grid.
05:31:57 <zzo38> I am not suggesting to remove such thing, though.
05:32:56 <zzo38> What I mean is that if you want to do something such as "swap channel 2 with channel 3" then you would enter a SQL command to do that, or if you want to detect which instruments are used and what range of notes, you can use SQL command to do that too.
05:33:32 <madbr> the real reason for the grid's limitations is screen space
05:34:17 <madbr> if you add more flexibility then you will have too much data to display in your fixed size cell
05:34:21 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, that is one of the things making the grid's limitations, which is also part of the file format's limitations
05:34:41 <zzo38> For example, you cannot have a lot of effects at once.
05:34:55 <madbr> the cell cannot vary in height otherwise it would break the layout
05:36:04 <madbr> the max number of effects also has to stay constant
05:36:19 <zzo38> What you could do is if the cell contains a single effect, it is specified normally; if more than one, you can have a "effect icon" consisting of several colors and if clicked, then you get a window to view/edit each one.
05:36:28 <madbr> so that you can display easy to read column
05:36:51 <madbr> zzo38 : in theory yes
05:37:03 <madbr> zzo38 : but that sounds inconvenient
05:37:33 <madbr> breaks your muscle memory for doing fast editing
05:38:00 <zzo38> It would be inconvenient for writing music, but if you are using the MML compiler to write the music and the grid to view/tweak it, then it works. Furthermore, if you are writing music using the grid, you can still use single effects just as easily as before.
05:38:31 <zzo38> And, editing using SQL could also work just as well, too.
05:39:05 <zzo38> Another thing that might introduce multiple effects as once would be MIDI record.
05:39:19 <madbr> midi record is a problem yes
05:40:32 <zzo38> I currently use OpenMPT for viewing and playing music of various formats (and to export instruments and so on).
05:41:38 <madbr> openmpt is designed for writing songs
05:42:26 <zzo38> I don't really find it so suitable for such thing though, although yes it can be used for such, too.
05:46:36 <madbr> like, the whole purpose of the program is to write new music
05:46:52 <zzo38> It can be used for existing music too though
05:48:42 <zzo38> For writing music I generally use ppMCK, Csound, or just write them as PLAY commands in QBASIC.
05:49:19 <madbr> isn't qbasic's play command monophonic?
05:49:54 <zzo38> Yes, it is monophonic, although I have used it.
05:51:48 <zzo38> In Csound, there are several different programs for editing score (and some edit the orchestra for you too), and some people just write the score and/or orchestra directly in a text editor. I didn't find any of the score editors or the standard format so good, so I wrote my own score compiler, although I just type in the orchestra directly.
05:52:33 <zzo38> The Csound numeric score format looks to highly resemble tracker-style formats, so a tracker-style interface for Csound could probably use Csound's own format as their native format.
05:52:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Cheese]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=39794 * 66.215.55.141 * (+53) Created page with "ok I am confused, anybody want to help me understand?"
05:57:59 <Sgeo> Cheese++ compiler written in Cheese+ which has an interpreter in Cheese
05:58:46 <zzo38> Even when I am using ppMCK, it isn't quite the standard one; I have added a few things, the most useful being the * and ? commands, which I use a lot.
05:59:00 <Sgeo> I assume that Cheese itself is ultimately implemented in Feather, considering the time oddities involved
05:59:14 <zzo38> So in CsoundMML I have also implemented the * and ? commands.
06:01:08 <madbr> you're compiling to csound's score format from mml? :D
06:01:47 <madbr> I guess that shows that csound's score format might not be good and should've been mml in first place? :D
06:02:47 <zzo38> madbr: I don't know; probably it depends on preference. Some people do write music directly in Csound's score format. Some people prefer GUI. A few other people have written programs similar to MML for Csound, but not as good in my opinion.
06:03:43 <zzo38> And if I am just doing simple sound effects, and not writing a song, I find Csound score format reasonable too.
06:04:06 <madbr> everything is good enough for simple sound effects
06:05:00 <zzo38> Often in such a case, the score will only contain possibly some tables and one event, and then write the sound effect in the orchestra.
06:07:16 <zzo38> I much prefer the Csound format over VST (although Csound does support VST, in both directions).
06:08:31 <zzo38> New effects can be written as combinations of existing effects, or by writing a Csound extension in C.
06:11:56 <zzo38> Some people prefer to compose music by writing it on a paper. I can do that too, especially if I am writing in four-part harmony.
06:12:28 <zzo38> But someone I know, just play piano and never writes it down at all.
06:13:03 <zzo38> (He says he can never get the timing correct when writing it down or putting it into the computer.)
06:14:44 <zzo38> Do you use OpenMPT yourself at all?
06:17:20 <zzo38> Sgeo: Then now write the Cheeeese+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++!!!! compiler, too.
06:19:11 <madbr> I use impulse tracker which is the precursor
06:19:36 <zzo38> Yes I knew that is a DOS program
06:20:40 <madbr> in fact most of my musical output is still done in that
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06:21:40 <zzo38> I did not know that.
06:24:32 <zzo38> Impulse Tracker format is more sophisticated than MOD and S3M at least, so it does allow more effects at once, by putting some in the volume column, some in the effect column, some in the sample data, and some in the instrument data. To me that looks like somewhat of a mess.
06:24:51 <madbr> yeah but I never use the volume column for effects
06:25:01 <madbr> it's there for volume only
06:25:33 <madbr> otherwise you run into the problem that you can't adjust volume anymore if you use it
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06:26:06 <zzo38> There are a few effects which work in the volume column though, as I have read the format specifications, although I did not pay much attention how much it is used; but I do think usually they are only volume
06:26:31 <madbr> some other people might use them yes
06:27:47 <zzo38> The instrument data can also contain volume and panning though
06:29:04 <madbr> yeah I use some of the panning stuff in instruments
06:29:10 <madbr> along with channel panning
06:32:24 <fizzie> I've written an Impulse Tracker file player once; it did feel like somewhat of a mess.
06:32:46 <madbr> fizzie : yeah it's not a particularly clean spec
06:33:02 <zzo38> To me it doesn't make much sense to make such a mess inside of the file format; to me is more sensible having external program compiling such effect into the correct sequences needed in the file, and then the player does not need to know about them.
06:33:18 <madbr> has bizzarre throwbacks to stuff like amiga pitch clock frequencies :D
06:34:30 <madbr> zzo38 : that's like, a baked output format
06:34:50 <madbr> like the old genesis music format that was a dump of all register writes
06:34:55 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, I think it would work better.
06:35:08 <madbr> it would have to be a two step thing
06:35:13 <zzo38> An alternative would be to use a VM, like .NSF uses.
06:35:22 <madbr> you'd need a format for editing the data
06:35:41 <madbr> and then a second format for exporting the data to external players
06:36:00 <zzo38> madbr: Yes, you would need such a thing, certainly. But I still think it would work better, and make it more extensible without modifying the players.
06:36:06 <madbr> yeah nsf is a good example of second format
06:36:51 <madbr> "preparsed .it" would be a useful thing yes
06:36:53 <zzo38> Yes and there are a few different programs to compile into .NSF: NerdTracker, FamiTracker, ppMCK, etc.
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06:42:03 <zzo38> fizzie: If we make the "preparsed .it" format would you work it better then?
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06:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39795&oldid=39789 * GermanyBoy * (-5) /* Natural numbers via linked lists */
06:53:29 <fizzie> It would certainly have made my player simpler, but it was a one-off thing for a friend who needed a small executable, not a general IT player thing that I'd keep working on.
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06:54:38 <zzo38> I could still try to make such format and other people can question/complain about it, and put it in library which is playing such file
06:56:36 <zzo38> I think it would improve it a lot. Not only make the player simpler, but also allow editors to add their own features much more easily, and make it much more easily to write a MML compiler targeting it.
06:57:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Declarative paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39796&oldid=23621 * GermanyBoy * (+24)
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07:22:32 <zzo38> I hav idea a new kind of poker game, based on Texas Hold'em. One thing is that each player now plays two hands; each hand keeps their own score and bets separately though, except that one is "leader" and the one after that in the same team is called a "supporter", such that the supporter cannot reraise the leader. There are also other rules having to do with limits, lives, and other things.
07:41:40 <zzo38> How common would it be in a poker game if you really don't want your opponent to see your cards, for some reason? (I don't know why, but maybe it might be possible somehow?) In such a case, it might make sense to fold if check is an option, but only after the river card has been dealt.
07:47:25 <zzo38> Or maybe someone wants to influence the decisions made by other players, when there are more than two players in the game.
07:52:56 <Taneb> Oh hey, it's apparently Transgender Awareness Week or something
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07:58:49 <olsner> I did a sid player based on "preparsed sid" a while ago, but it seems that the original 6502 code is a quite good compression format for SID register writes
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08:03:31 <zzo38> Yes, it does do that.
08:03:44 <zzo38> Although for register write formats, there is VGM, is one thing for that.
08:04:51 <zzo38> 6502 codes can certainly help to compress and do other things, then you only need to emulate the 6502 instruction set and whatever effects are used, can be added on by programmed in 6502 codes. NSF is also based on 6502 codes.
08:05:10 <mroman> what's the conventional business e-mail response time?
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09:03:20 <oerjan> turns out trying to join another server without telling irssi it's _not_ freenode gets you disconnected from the usual ones, huh
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09:05:40 <mroman> I run multiple irssis in a screen session
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09:07:21 <oerjan> i _really_ _really_ don't seem to get how to connect to more than one server D:
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09:08:49 <mroman> You suck at connecting to multiple servers .
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09:13:38 <shachaf> oerjan: how are you doing it
09:13:48 <shachaf> oerjan: i just /connect irc.some.server
09:14:26 <oerjan> shachaf: oh i used /server
09:15:42 <oerjan> ok. i actually found out how to use /server (needs to add a + before the connection)
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09:16:19 <shachaf> /SERVER disconnects the server in active window and connects to the new one. It will take the same arguments as /CONNECT. If you prefix the address with the + character, Irssi won't disconnect the active server, and it will create a new window where the server is connected (ie. /window new hide; /connect address)
09:16:26 <shachaf> ...I walked into that one.
09:17:01 <shachaf> So much for trying to help people.
09:17:41 <shachaf> (do you see what happened there it was funny)
09:18:04 <HackEgo> numcoin ortcoin triicoin pongcoin boancoin sqrcoin postentcoin mechuygenecoin catcococoin devezcoin hinkleicoin eceicoin kvilcoin titlecoin half-modecoin camantolcoin bracoin interwangcoin brbcoin objectdiscoin
09:18:14 <kmc> interwangcoin
09:18:24 <kmc> whither fungot
09:18:40 <oerjan> shachaf: how's life on the disconnects network
09:18:43 <kmc> Taneb: is it? i thought that was in november
09:18:47 <kmc> or is that only in USA
09:19:19 <shachaf> oerjan: v. disconnected hth
09:19:34 <Taneb> kmc, isn't that asexuality awareness week?
09:20:45 <Taneb> Well, my student union is running a transgender awareness week this week it seems
09:21:33 <Taneb> Hmm, there does seem to be one in November too
09:21:58 <Taneb> And Asexual awareness week is at the end of October
09:22:53 <kmc> i started wearing skirts to work this week
09:23:41 <oerjan> when then is asexual transgender awareness week
09:24:00 <oerjan> it's just a matter of time and you know it
09:24:23 <Taneb> oerjan, November 2 - November 9
09:25:06 <kmc> hi shachaf
09:25:08 <oerjan> Taneb: no that's plain transgender awareness week, pay attention!
09:25:31 <Taneb> oerjan, that's November 10 - November 17 I thought
09:26:03 <kmc> awareness is a double-edged sword :<
09:26:45 <b_jonas> kmc: or a double-sided coin
09:27:12 <HackEgo> ihaxtcoin mechalcrcoin domcoin oousecoin axingcoin oxberatcoin curschefcoin wadstuffocoin poimefulcoin c-londitone90000coin glastrcoin eodorcoin whocoin madna#coin kelxcoin valk:brainlovecoin lazycoin hq9+coin librilllcoin temcoin
09:28:52 <oerjan> anyway do you remember that cocytus guy who was here briefly looking for the other kind of esoterica, when i tried to join ircnet the first time it also joined the #esoteric channel there (because i forgot to tell irssi that it was ircnet) and there e was. unfortunately e seemed idle.
09:30:47 <Taneb> What even is the other kind of esoterica
09:31:56 <kmc> while you are letting your guard down / i will be letting myself go / while you keep running your ship aground / i will be setting myself alight
09:32:01 <Taneb> kmc, when you said that awareness is a double-edged sword, was there anything specific you were referring to?
09:32:43 <Taneb> It feels like that conversation was cut off
09:33:51 <kmc> Taneb: http://mainisusuallyafunction.blogspot.com/2014/06/on-depression-privilege-and-online.html
09:33:56 <kmc> content warning: depression, privilege, online activism
09:34:47 <zzo38> After a few moments of thoughtful deliberation, I lean forward and declare my decision into the microphone. "Monty, I'd like to switch to Door Number 3. In fact, it's always to my advantage to switch based on the facts you've presented." The crowd gasps! Someone from the audience shouts, "That's not correct, switching doesn't matter since each door has an equal probability of of hiding the car." Only one of us is right, but which one is it?
09:35:43 <zzo38> I have seen this before and see that it is better to switch than not, but, according to how it is mentioned there, exactly one of us is right, therefore it doesn't matter which one, if you switch anyways, it won't be at a disadvantage.
09:35:53 <zzo38> kmc: Yes I know that but that isn't the point I am making
09:36:57 <oerjan> ...is there anyone here who _hasn't_ already seen the monty hall problem discussed ad nauseam
09:37:39 <zzo38> This specific point is one I have not seen, but other than that yes I certainly has already seen and probably so has anyone else here
09:37:55 <kmc> let's talk about newcomb's problem instead
09:38:00 <kmc> omega as gameshow host
09:39:09 <zzo38> Omega is a gameshow host?
09:39:29 <zzo38> I thought omega is Greek alphabets.
09:40:32 <oerjan> the thing that annoys me about monty hall discussions is that everyone has an implicit setup in mind that is rarely fully stated and which greatly affects the probabilities _even_ if you understand them.
09:41:23 <shachaf> is it related to how they might not offer to switch in the first place depending on your choice?
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09:42:16 <shachaf> you don't actually know which game you're playing, or at least one of the rules is just implicit
09:42:46 <mroman> My understanding of the monty problem is, that you can eliminate one door
09:43:01 <mroman> although the moderator does the elimination, but that doesn't really matter
09:43:10 <zzo38> I have quite thought of those things already
09:43:11 <mroman> he gives you three doors, and you can eleminate one bad door
09:43:20 <mroman> which is rougly the same as choosing two doors
09:43:34 <shachaf> there are multiple monty problems and they're indistinguishable without some extra information about how the game actually works
09:43:35 <zzo38> Although, I assume that the rules are mentioned before the game is played.
09:45:00 <oerjan> mroman: the problem is usually stated "in medias res", so you don't actually know what the rules are, just that you're giving the opportunity to switch _this_ time.
09:45:08 <mroman> although that doesn't really help understanding why it's better to switch
09:45:26 <kmc> perhaps bonghits will fix my transport layer security
09:45:26 <oerjan> and it _could_ be, in theory, that you only get that offer if the car is behind the door you originally chose.
09:46:02 <zzo38> I have thought about the probabilities carefully and determine it is better to switch. I then programmed a simulation in the computer to check the same thing.
09:47:31 <zzo38> Another variant I have seen is you get additionally $100 if you decide not to switch. Such thing might depend how much the car is then worth, and possibly, whether behind the other doors are empty or have goats (both ways have been seen).
09:48:00 <FireFly> If you choose a door with a goat, do you get to keep the goat?
09:48:09 <mroman> can't you then calculate your earnings expectancy
09:48:33 <zzo38> FireFly: I would assume so, but it isn't actually clear.
09:48:36 <mroman> there's a 2/3 chance you win the car?
09:48:43 <zzo38> I have also thought of the game where the host reveals one of the other two doors at random even if one of them does have a car. I could not figure it out then.
09:49:09 <mroman> but there can't be a 1/3 chance you win the car and the money though
09:50:05 <mroman> if you stay there's a 1/3 chance you win the car and the money?
09:50:21 <mroman> and if you switch there's a 2/3 chance you just win the car
09:50:39 <oerjan> zzo38: i assume you don't get to switch if a car is revealed?
09:51:00 <mroman> wouldn't that mean that your expectancy is (2/3)*car + (1/3)*(car+100$)
09:51:01 <zzo38> oerjan: You could but it wouldn't help, since you have to switch to the other closed door
09:51:04 <mroman> which would be more than a car
09:51:24 <shachaf> why can't you switch to the car door
09:51:30 <mroman> that' doesn't work that way hm.
09:51:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Because it is open!
09:51:39 <shachaf> just because it's been opened? that's ruled out in the original formulation because you know there's a goat behind it
09:52:24 <zzo38> mroman: I think you have to make the expectancy separately each choice?
09:52:57 <oerjan> zzo38: hm i think in the case where a door is revealed at random is equivalent to always revealing the second door.
09:53:13 <zzo38> shachaf: If that is how it is ruled out, well, it works if it is consider as win/lose game, but if that isn't the consideration, then what if you already have a car but you don't have any goat yet?
09:53:23 <mroman> zzo38: Let's assume you role a dice to decide
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09:53:42 <mroman> then there's a 1/2 chance that you have a 2/3 chance to win the car
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09:53:50 <zzo38> mroman: O, in that case then yes you do add them up. But you shouldn't decide at random anyways
09:53:53 <mroman> and there's a 1/2 chance that you have 1/3 chance to win the car + the car
09:54:25 <mroman> > (1/2)*(2/3)*10000 + (1/2)*(1/3)*(10000+100)
09:54:58 <mroman> > (1/2)*(2/3)*10000 + (1/2)*(1/3)*(10000)
09:55:11 <shachaf> you open the third door and behind it is an argument about the monty hall problem
09:55:14 <zzo38> O, so the car is worth $10000.
09:55:15 <mroman> You can expect half a car from the monty problem
09:55:28 <zzo38> Then it is solved, of course.
09:55:32 <mroman> which somehow means that your chance of winning is 50:50?
09:55:52 <mroman> but that's probably an intuitive misjudgement of statistics of mine
09:56:05 <zzo38> But if you have not seen the car before, then you just have to guess how much it is worth.
09:56:05 <mroman> If I can expect to win half the price
09:56:13 <mroman> does that imply that my chance of winning the price is 50:50?
09:56:25 <oerjan> `addquote <shachaf> you open the third door and behind it is an argument about the monty hall problem
09:56:26 <HackEgo> 1206) <shachaf> you open the third door and behind it is an argument about the monty hall problem
09:56:45 <zzo38> (And, of course, if it isn't about winning, an additional consideration must additionally be made as I have mentioned above.)
09:57:21 <oerjan> i'd assume most cars are worth more money than most goats, but maybe not everywhere.
09:57:27 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you argue about it in the third door, now all three different things.
09:58:50 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, I also believe so, but my consideration about the goat was about if it isn't about winning.
09:59:39 <oerjan> zzo38: if the door is revealed at random, there is 1/3 prob. you don't get to switch, 1/3 prob. it's best to switch, and 1/3 prob. it's best to stay. so on the condition you _can_ switch, it's 50-50 and it makes no difference whether you do or not.
10:00:21 <oerjan> oh it's that day again.
10:00:49 <FireFly> Maybe the car is a rusty, used volvo from 1995
10:01:20 <zzo38> oerjan: That was my conclusion too actually
10:01:31 <oerjan> (testing of air raid sirenes)
10:01:58 <Taneb> Is Norway at that much risk of air raids?
10:02:04 <FireFly> no that was monday last week (I think)
10:02:06 <mroman> The fun fact is, that if you decide by a coin toss whether to switch or not
10:02:26 <oerjan> Taneb: not recently, knock on wood. they test them twice a year nevertheless.
10:02:27 <mroman> you'r chance of winning is 1/2 * 2/3 + 1/2 * 1/3 = 1/2
10:02:37 <zzo38> Then the coin will fall under the closed door and you will lose one cent.
10:02:43 <mroman> which is still better than staying
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10:03:00 <oerjan> second wednesday of january and june
10:03:22 <mroman> so those people who say that your chance of winning is 1/2 are actually right
10:03:30 <mroman> if you decide randomly!
10:05:49 <zzo38> What is the formal logic to have such thing as, if it is either better to switch or it doesn't matter, then it implies that you ought to switch?
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10:06:10 <FireFly> oerjan: good, thanks. coordinating attack on norway...
10:07:00 <oerjan> FireFly: i've thought about that idea.
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10:09:42 <FireFly> To return the favour, the best time to attack Sweden would be at 15:00 the first may of every third month, though I don't remember which months
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10:10:42 <FireFly> since I recall there being a test last monday I guess it's the last month of each quarter
10:11:13 <oerjan> the first may of every third month sounds a little hard to calculate, to be honest
10:12:09 <kmc> oerjan: they test them every tuesday here at noon
10:12:33 <kmc> http://localwiki.net/sf/Tuesday_Noon_Siren
10:13:12 <kmc> "The San Francisco Office of Emergency Services & Homeland Security urges those who live or work in San Francisco to consider the siren as a weekly reminder to compile an emergency-preparedness kit capable of sustaining themselves and their dependents for 72 hours."
10:13:27 <kmc> ""We had two bags of grass, 75 pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high-powered blotter acid, a saltshaker half-full of cocaine, a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... Also, a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of beer, a pint of raw ether, and two dozen amyls. Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as
10:14:58 <oerjan> i am not sure that emergency kit is government approved, kmc
10:16:01 <oerjan> i suppose it makes _slightly_ more sense if it's also used for earthquakes, but still i feel a slight urge to make a paranoia index out of this.
10:16:45 <oerjan> number of siren tests per year
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10:18:27 <kmc> no matter how drunk I get I haven't let my laptop run out of battery
10:18:47 <kmc> i got up in the middle of a threesome once to plug it in
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10:23:24 <shachaf> copumpkin: yo did you ever read that thing you were going to read
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10:32:31 <oerjan> @tell Bike <Bike> francis i, i think <-- i think the i is not official until they get another francis
10:36:11 <mroman> zzo38: It may also depend on whether you're an observer on the outside or not
10:36:26 <mroman> You could argue that an outsider doesn't know whether the participant switches or not
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10:36:58 <mroman> and if you model it as a 50:50 switch, so are the chance of winning for the participant 50:50 too
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10:49:07 <mroman> three prisoner problem
10:49:12 <mroman> isn't that somehow related to the monty one?
10:49:26 <mroman> A knows, that B is to be executed
10:49:37 <mroman> (that's like monty telling you which door is a goat)
10:49:53 <mroman> if A were to switch his identity with C
10:50:01 <mroman> (that's like switching the door)
10:50:08 <mroman> would that mean that his chances are now 2/3?
10:51:03 <mroman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Prisoners_problem
10:52:22 <mroman> i.e. you can imagine, that they have a bag over their had and just a name tag, they can't speak or anything
10:52:34 <mroman> which means, that it would actually be plausible to switch "identities"
10:54:23 <int-e> Ok, that's nicely detailed. (flipping a coin is quite crucial)
10:54:52 <int-e> Of course A is silly to assume that his chances improved. :)
10:55:34 <mroman> int-e: at least because the governor already decided
10:55:51 <mroman> no information he receives afterwards could have possibly influenced the governors decision
10:56:32 <mroman> but it would make sense that you can't change a decision by disclosing information about it afterwards
10:56:34 <int-e> Well, C's chances do improve.
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10:56:58 <kmc> oerjan: I don't think you can much warn of an earthquake, anyway
10:57:32 <int-e> mroman: There's information in the fact that A tells the news to C rather than B.
10:57:48 <kmc> i feel like i'm reading a random acausal decision theory problem generator
10:59:01 <int-e> mroman: In 2/3 of the cases that A tells the news to C, C is actually pardoned; likewise, in 2/3 of the cases that A tells the news to B, B is pardoned. This does not change the overall odds at all.
11:00:56 <mroman> well.. at least this means that A can increase his chance to 2/3 by switching identities with C
11:02:31 <mroman> or is that wrongg too?
11:02:35 <mroman> so he should have killed C and taken his place if he knew anything about statistics
11:02:38 <mroman> although these statistics are really weird
11:02:38 <Taneb> That's so macabre I am glad I am crap at stats
11:02:45 <mroman> I don't really see why your chance of winning can possibly increase after the decision was already made
11:02:48 <int-e> I'm not sure that killing somebody is a good way of getting pardoned.
11:03:09 <int-e> mroman: they increase to 100% for the survivor after the executions have taken place
11:03:28 <mroman> at the point he chose which to pardon everyone had a 1/3 chance of winning
11:03:41 <mroman> there's no reason why that chance should alter o_O
11:04:09 <int-e> it's just conditional probabilities.
11:04:37 <int-e> The guard divulges information about the choice after all.
11:05:58 <mroman> yeah. But that information has no effect on the "choosing procedure"
11:06:00 <mroman> how could it, the procuder had already been done
11:06:02 <int-e> mroman: You're viewing it wrong, really.
11:06:41 <int-e> After the choice has been made, one of the prisoners has a 100% chance of being pardoned, and the other two will be executed.
11:06:49 <mroman> you calculate the chance based on information you know about the result
11:06:52 <mroman> which means you already know parts of the result
11:06:52 <int-e> The probabilities that we're discussing are uncertainties arising from incomplete information.
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11:18:43 <b_jonas> I don't know what the instruction manual coveres it, but if C is pardonned and the warden names B, he may find it difficult to prove that he named B because of the coin flip rather than because of the truth he knew
11:18:54 <b_jonas> so if he doesn't want conflict with the governor, it's easier to just not ansewr
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11:33:32 <mroman> in reality nobody would be pardoned .
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11:56:43 <kmc> sorry about all of that
11:56:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cois: not found
11:56:54 <HackEgo> katurketercoin rincoin villgolationcoin backcoin orkovacoin ijlcoin thamptlypaniquishyncoin lambergiuncoin fobcoin sandcoin coborocoin m-codcoin fagecoin scacoin gieramblcoin chiecoin oveacoin lombricoin charghumcoin tedcoin
11:57:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doges: not found
11:57:51 <kmc> no doge for you
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12:00:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
12:00:35 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:00:35 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:02:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :-D: not found
12:02:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: catr: not found
12:03:26 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
12:05:09 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
12:05:19 <int-e> `ls -la complaints
12:05:20 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
12:05:22 <int-e> ``ls -la complaints
12:05:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
12:05:25 <int-e> `` ls -la complaints
12:05:28 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Apr 23 02:27 complaints -> /dev/null
12:05:41 <int-e> It's the proper BOFH way of handling complaints.
12:07:36 <FireFly> `run file * | grep -v directory
12:07:37 <HackEgo> 98076: ASCII text, with CRLF line terminators \ a: empty \ app.sh: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable \ bdsmreclist: ASCII text \ canary: ASCII text \ cat: ASCII text \ complaints: symbolic link to `/dev/null' \ :-D: UTF-8 Unicode text \ dog: UTF-8 Unicode text \ fb: ELF 64-bit LSB
12:08:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `:-D: not found
12:08:06 <HackEgo> bash: :-D: command not found
12:08:09 <HackEgo> bash: ./:-D: Permission denied
12:08:19 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `x': No such file or directory
12:08:27 <HackEgo> ./:-D: line 1: $'\342\230\272': command not found
12:08:57 <FireFly> PS. I think it's a unicode smiley
12:09:50 <mroman> It's chances of being executed rather than pardoned just increased a lot
12:10:10 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 6356 Apr 23 02:27 fb
12:10:26 <FireFly> `run file -i * | grep -v directory | sed -r 's/\s+/ /g'
12:10:27 <HackEgo> 98076: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ a: inode/x-empty; charset=binary \ app.sh: text/x-shellscript; charset=us-ascii \ bdsmreclist: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ canary: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ cat: text/plain; charset=us-ascii \ complaints: inode/symlink; charset=binary \ :-D: text/plain; charset=utf-8 \ dog: text/plain; charset=utf-8 \ f
12:10:49 <int-e> `` cat dog # cheap pun!
12:11:22 <int-e> Oh that's too much for my fonts.
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12:12:46 <FireFly> I'm tempted to try to work around that, but I probably shouldn't
12:13:27 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 .
12:13:57 <int-e> how badly would hackego break after chmod -x . ?
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12:16:21 <HackEgo> total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:16 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000
12:16:24 <HackEgo> total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:16 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000
12:16:43 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:16:47 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 18 Apr 23 02:27 bin/`
12:16:53 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\`: No such file or directory
12:17:11 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:17:25 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:17:25 <mroman> why does ls give something else then ls ./?
12:17:41 <HackEgo> total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:17 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000
12:17:56 <HackEgo> .: \ total 1980 \ drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . \ drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:17 .. \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5
12:18:06 <mroman> does ls list recursively?
12:18:08 <HackEgo> 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
12:18:11 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
12:18:12 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:18:17 <HackEgo> 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:18:23 <int-e> looks the same to me
12:18:30 <HackEgo> total 1980 drwxr-xr-x 14 5000 5000 4096 Jun 11 12:12 . drwxr-xr-x 15 0 0 0 Jun 11 12:18 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 373 Apr 23 02:27 98076 -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 0 Apr 23 02:27 a -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 68 Apr 23 02:27 app.sh -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 31 Apr 23 02:27 bdsmreclist drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 5000 4096 Jun 6 08:32 bin -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 6 Jun 11
12:18:31 <int-e> mroman: you hade a -la previously
12:18:53 <FireFly> `` diff <(ls -la) <(ls -la ./)
12:18:56 <HackEgo> . .. 98076 a app.sh bdsmreclist bin canary cat complaints :-D dog etc factor fb fb.c head hello hello.c .hg .hg_archival.txt ibin index.html interps lib paste pref prefs quines quotes share src test Test Test.hi Test.hs UNPA Wierd wisdom wisdom.pdf
12:19:11 <mroman> why doesn't la list hello.c?
12:19:31 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 5000 6479 Apr 23 02:27 hello \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 113 Apr 23 02:27 hello.c
12:20:04 <FireFly> it only responds with one IRC line, so the amount of output is fairly limited
12:22:59 <HackEgo> gcc: /usr/bin/gcc /usr/lib/gcc /usr/bin/X11/gcc
12:24:12 <int-e> `` paste < hello.c
12:25:01 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.30812
12:25:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.24635
12:25:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/hello.c
12:29:47 <int-e> huh, what kind of protocol is that?
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12:38:30 <HackEgo> [U+2639 WHITE FROWNING FACE]
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12:55:35 <mroman> `learn protocol Not to be confused with protocoal.
12:55:41 <HackEgo> protocol Not to be confused with protocoal.
12:56:54 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/protocol //' wisdom/protocol
12:56:54 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/protocol: No such file or directory
12:57:43 <oerjan> we have a forget command?
12:57:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
12:57:59 <HackEgo> protocol is not to be confused with protocoal
12:58:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/protoco:': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
12:58:07 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/protocol:': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
12:58:29 <mroman> I already corrected it
12:59:15 <HackEgo> Your evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl.
13:00:22 <oerjan> `run echo 'We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.' >wisdom/antediluvian
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13:04:34 <mroman> http://it.slashdot.org/story/14/06/09/1852218/kids-with-operators-manual-alert-bank-officials-we-hacked-your-atm?sbsrc=md
13:04:52 <mroman> I detect security by "you don't have our manual"
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15:48:57 <mroman> zzo38: Have you yet found out if you can do a*b-c with BANCSTar Arithmetic command?
15:49:09 <mroman> from the LIST source it looks like you can encode an operator in each operand
15:49:23 <mroman> but LIST seems to only look at the operator encoded in the fourth operand
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15:59:03 <mroman> also there are FORMS and SCREENS btw.
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16:22:31 <HackEgo> .gwG!oڕdB48Jr'_BXىjGtOzEAWq˵q͵{l5fu$^1=!hYl+ñ
16:24:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rsum: not found
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16:52:28 <HackEgo> 1140) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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17:32:42 <Taneb> Someone here suspects that Lisp's list comprehensions are turing complete
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17:50:21 <int-e> > [x*y | x <- [1..3], y <- [1..5]]
17:50:23 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,2,4,6,8,10,3,6,9,12,15]
17:50:33 <int-e> I don't know what it looks like in Lisp.
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17:56:02 <int-e> fungot is with us again, the world is saved
17:56:03 <fungot> int-e: i meant gregorr-w: ps ( thread-id 5))
17:56:06 <zzo38> It is similar to do-notation though
17:57:07 <mroman> int-e: loop and collect
17:57:32 <int-e> zzo38: haskell started out with "monad comprehensions", but then there was a push for type errors that make sense to students who are just learning the language, and the syntax was restricted to lists.
17:57:57 <mroman> but esentially you can use regular lisp funccions in list comprehensions
17:58:01 <int-e> lately there's been a backwards trend, and ghc has monad comprehensions as an extension.
17:58:15 <int-e> @type [() | () <- undefined]
17:58:35 <mroman> loor for x from 1 to 10 (collect (* n n)))
17:58:36 <int-e> (with the extension, [() | () <- undefined] :: Monad m => m () )
17:58:57 <mroman> (loop for x from 1 to 10 (collect (* n n))) for example
17:58:59 <int-e> x/n, please choose one.
17:59:54 <int-e> > (do { x <- [1..10]; return (x*x) }, [x*x | x <- [1..10]])
17:59:56 <lambdabot> ([1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100],[1,4,9,16,25,36,49,64,81,100])
18:00:55 <mroman> Break 1 [2]> (loop for x from 1 to 10 collect (* x x))
18:00:56 <mroman> (1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100)
18:19:30 <int-e> Melvar: nope, since there is no guard in there.
18:19:52 <int-e> unlike [() | False] :: Control.Monad.MonadPlus m => m ()
18:22:18 <Melvar> ( [ x * y | x <- Right 2, y <- Left "no" ]
18:22:18 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of function Prelude.Monad.return:
18:22:18 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Prelude.Classes.*, Prelude.Fin.*
18:22:55 <Melvar> ( [ the Integer $ x * y | x <- Right 2, y <- Left "no" ]
18:22:55 <idris-bot> (input):0:0:Incomplete term Right (fromInteger 2) >>= \x8 => Left "no" >>= \y11 => return (the Integer (x8 * y11))
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18:26:13 <Melvar> ( the (Either _ Integer) [ the Integer $ x * y | x <- Right 2, y <- Left "no" ]
18:26:41 <Melvar> Apparently that works without Alternative too.
18:29:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39797&oldid=39795 * GermanyBoy * (-10) /* Built-in classes */ corrected super classes
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18:32:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lii]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39798&oldid=39797 * GermanyBoy * (-5) /* Classes and methods */
18:46:14 <HackEgo> Thanks, barrucadu. Tharrucadu.
18:48:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rot26: not found
18:48:54 <int-e> `` cd bin; echo rot*
18:49:20 <int-e> `` ln -s rot0 bin/rot26
18:49:44 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" | tr a-zA-Z n-za-mN-ZA-M
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19:15:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:David.werecat]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=39799&oldid=36193 * 198.7.62.204 * (-438)
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19:21:42 <Taneb> Help I seem to be in two different university's computer science society's IRC channel
19:23:56 <Bike> quick start a debate about how pure haskell is and leave in the confusion
19:25:54 <zzo38> Well, Haskell has many impure features such as lazy I/O, ability to catch errors from pure code without using a macro, and everything marked "unsafe".
19:26:41 <int-e> > id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id id 1
19:27:52 <FireFly> `which print_args_or_input
19:27:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/print_args_or_input
19:27:58 <FireFly> `cat bin/print_args_or_input
19:27:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi
19:28:50 <zzo38> Now do you know how you can debate and argue about how pure Haskell is and confusion?
19:29:37 <FireFly> waait, that shouldn't be id
19:29:50 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 5000 9 Apr 23 02:27 bin/rot256 -> /bin/echo
19:31:10 <HackEgo> id: --context (-Z) works only on an SELinux-enabled kernel
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19:40:47 <ion> http://1.usa.gov/QQYwSb
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19:43:02 <int-e> "Google Custom Search requires JavaScript" ... well, no thanks.
19:43:08 <int-e> (cute search terms though)
19:46:00 <int-e> "1.USA.gov URLs are created whenever anyone shortens a .gov or .mil URL using bitly."
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20:16:05 <Taneb> I did impress Edinburgh with my lensiness
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21:11:41 <zzo38> How to make German quotations with ISO-646?
21:17:17 <kmc> ,,old school''
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21:23:50 <zzo38> But I need to make German quotations with ISO-646
21:24:34 <kmc> they might be in some national variant but mostly ,,i think you do it like this''
21:25:17 <zzo38> Are you sure? I thought German quotations are different from that.
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21:26:08 <kmc> i don't know german
21:26:33 <zzo38> Neither do I, but I thought German quotations are not like that.
21:28:54 <FreeFull> That's what Polish quotations are like
21:28:59 <FreeFull> I don't know about German ones
21:29:12 <FreeFull> Except you'd use the actual unicode characters
21:29:24 <zzo38> But I don't need to make Polish quotations with ISO-646 anyways.
21:29:46 <zzo38> Only German and English (which is ASCII).
21:32:21 <kmc> ASCII is pretty incomplete for English typography, too
21:32:30 <kmc> but it has a decent enough approximation of quotation marks
21:32:40 <zzo38> I know but I don't need any more than what it has
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21:56:40 <Melvar> German: „foo“ ; English: “foo”
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22:15:25 <int-e> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anf%C3%BChrungszeichen
22:20:36 <zzo38> Apparently there is more than one kind?
22:20:51 <FireFly> `dis86 ea 00 00 ff ff 00 00 00
22:20:52 <HackEgo> invalid; add [rax], al; invalid; add [rax], al; invalid;
22:25:06 <FireFly> That is the content of a "BOOT.COM" that apparently triggers a reboot, at least in dosbox
22:25:07 <zzo38> I also look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_variation_in_quotation_marks and says German is using both the low/high mark like that and angle quotations marks too sometimes
22:25:48 <zzo38> FireFly: I think in dosbox, it may have some of its own instructions for executing the built-in commands on drive Z.
22:26:04 <FireFly> Well, the program definitely isn't dosbox-specific
22:26:27 <FireFly> I found it on an old floppy
22:28:00 <zzo38> Perhaps they worked on those computer.
22:28:40 <boily> they should make floppy-themed USB sticks.
22:30:47 <zzo38> There are floppy-disk USB.
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22:31:02 <zzo38> I have one, because the internal floppy disk drive broke.
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