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01:59:51 <zzo38> I believe that both a Commutative Ligature Machine and a Ligature-Counter Machine are capable of recogizing balanced parentheses, although it doesn't seem that the ordinary Ligature Machine can.
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03:28:08 <Sgeo> http://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/2a88kb/why_all_browsers_are_horrible/
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04:04:19 <zzo38> Are there channels about compiler optimizations?
04:10:41 <ais523_> Sgeo: I like the idea of implementing Flash by printing a message saying that it's crashed and dereferencing a NULL pointer
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04:54:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40125&oldid=40124 * Zzo38 * (+1925) Syntax
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05:05:42 <quintopia> i really like the DM untouched by the sorrow of adulthood analogy
05:06:02 <quintopia> i also like the fact that he elects to write "wroughth" instead of "wreak"
05:12:51 <Sgeo> o.O at Meteor.js... is it a thing on top of Node.js or is it an alternative to Node.js or is it something else entirely?
05:13:23 <Sgeo> $ curl https://install.meteor.com | /bin/sh
05:13:43 <Sgeo> People criticize rust for that, why not meteor? (Although Rust's does sudo)
05:14:32 <quintopia> I think I'm going to start calling Firefox Fiona and Chrome Christopher. Much better names.
05:21:52 <zzo38> Are there cards in Magic: the Gathering having such things as: Protection from tokens. Protection from objects with counters. Protection from objects with protection. Protection from colorless. Protection from lands. Protection from tapped permanents. etc
05:22:11 <ais523_> zzo38: you can search for each of those in Gatherer
05:22:51 <zzo38> I had other idea too: A card which makes all permanents having abilities with an untap symbol to gain vigilance.
05:23:54 <ais523_> it's pretty rare for untap-symbol abilities to be played, though, which means there's not much point in playing a card that makes them worse
05:24:01 <shachaf> zzo38: What about Inspired abilities?
05:24:10 <shachaf> Is there a way to refer to those? Since it's not a real keyword.
05:24:17 <ais523_> shachaf: that wouldn't work within the rules, Inspired's an ability word
05:24:21 <ais523_> in general, the rules can't see anything in italics
05:24:30 <zzo38> shachaf: What does Inspired abilities mean?
05:24:33 <shachaf> Right. But is there a way around it?
05:24:42 <zzo38> ais523_: What is the use of ability words then?
05:24:58 <ais523_> zzo38: ability words are basically used to give an easy name to refer to effects of a particular shape
05:25:08 <shachaf> zzo38: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?text=+[Inspired]
05:25:16 <ais523_> e.g. for inspired, it's "Inspired - When CARDNAME untaps, ..."
05:25:37 <shachaf> Oh, it's not italicized on the gatherer page for some reason. #scow
05:26:08 <ais523_> it's still possible to have an effect on all inspired cards by writing, e.g. "Abilities don't trigger as the result of permanents untapping", but that would affect other cards too
05:27:16 <zzo38> ais523_: Well, maybe such thing I mentioned may be useful if it is a draft containing both this card and others with untap symbol, and possibly also if you manage to draft this card and another, having untap symbol but you want vigilance instead at least sometimes. Since, you play or not play such a global effect.
05:28:46 <zzo38> Or maybe you don't draft and you just get assigned random cards and have to pick a subset (not necessarily a proper subset) of them to use, and then add basic lands of your choice. Possibly, everyone has the same cards assigned to them, too.
05:29:05 <ais523_> zzo38: those formats are called Sealed and Duplicate Sealed, respectively
05:29:28 <ais523_> Wizards publishes recommended randomization methods for the formats (normally involving opening boosters as the method of randomizing the cards)
05:29:53 <ais523_> e.g. in one official game I played, they recommended assigning each player six boosters of Tenth Edition
05:32:39 <zzo38> I played one draft in which they had two packs of one set and one pack of another set. Even if sealed, you could do something similar, not using all cards of one set.
05:36:20 <zzo38> Another idea would be "Semi-Duplicate Sealed", where most cards are the same for each player but each player also gets a few cards that are individual to them (although everyone still gets the same rarity distributions).
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05:52:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: Horizon Drake has protection from lands
05:53:38 * ais523_ looks at the Ligature Machine
05:54:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: but that's rare. "Protection from artifacts" is qutie common, and there's at least one card each that mentions "Protection from creatures", "Protection from multicolored", "Protection from monocolored", "Protection from all colors", "Protection from its colors", "Protection from the colors of permanents you control", "Protection from everything"
05:55:48 <ais523_> and, infamously, "Protection from the chosen player"
05:56:11 <b_jonas> it might be obvious, but "Protection from the chosen color" is quite frequent
05:56:36 <b_jonas> there's lots of instants and auras that give it, and the great creature Order of the Stars
05:57:21 <b_jonas> what I'd like to see but doesn't exist is an aura saying "Permanents have protection from enchanted creature/permanent. This effect doesn't remove ~."
05:57:22 <ais523_> if we treat the input string as the only input, the Ligature Machine is clearly capable of running any FSM on that input, i.e. it can recognise all regular languages (half of coppro's conjecture)
05:57:30 <shachaf> I discovered that "damage can't be prevented" gets around protection, since protection works by preventing damage.
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05:57:38 <ais523_> it can alternatively act as a PDA, but can't take input while it's doing that
05:58:14 <ais523_> because you can never read behind the cursor, it is definitely sub-TC; it has one stack as the only storage
06:00:47 <b_jonas> oh, and there's also "Protection from instant spells and from sorcery spells", "protection from each of the exiled [imprinted] card's card types", "protection from instants", "protection from enchantments"
06:03:35 <ais523_> one nice thing about Ligature Machine is that it's trivial to compile to Thue (assuming that you have some characters you can guarantee won't exist in the input)
06:07:02 <b_jonas> compiling to Thue? but Thue is much more powerful than the ligature machine, so that doesn't do you much good
06:07:27 <ais523_> well, it gives you an implementation
06:07:41 <ais523_> which is nice if you want to actually test programs
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06:12:00 <ais523_> now I'm trying to work out if "PDA without input" is a distinct computational class from "finite-state machine"
06:12:32 <ais523_> my feeling is "no", in which case the Ligature Machine is a pure finite-state machine
06:15:17 <b_jonas> ais523_: I'm not sure whether Ligature Machine is just a finite state machine or more powerful. I'll have to think about this
06:15:58 <b_jonas> ais523_: if you didn't have the |=:| rule, then it would be a finite state machine
06:17:18 <ais523_> b_jonas: you can clearly form a stack via pushing the rest of the input further and further away
06:17:28 <ais523_> however, this then prevents you reading the input
06:17:39 <ais523_> it's equivalent to a language with one stack, for which the input starts on the stack
06:17:47 <b_jonas> ais523_: what I wonder is whether you can recognize {a^nb^n}
06:17:51 <ais523_> which gives you FSM power if the stack never grows
06:18:04 <b_jonas> wait, one stack and input starts on stack? are you sure in that?
06:18:15 <ais523_> b_jonas: it's equivalent to that
06:18:20 <ais523_> because you can never read to the left of the cursor
06:18:22 <b_jonas> that rings a bell, let me read up on that
06:18:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: I do not see any way to recognize {a^nb^n} with it
06:18:34 <ais523_> thus the area to the right of the cursor can be treated as a stack
06:18:39 <ais523_> anyway, a^nb^n is obviously impossible
06:18:48 <ais523_> if n is greater than the square of the number of symbols
06:19:01 <ais523_> then you don't have any place to record it once the cursor comes within one square of the first b for the first time
06:20:07 <zzo38> What changes if you have two ligature machines, with a machine that reverses its input in between?
06:20:25 <b_jonas> what's the tie-breaking rule of LM for when multiple rules apply?
06:20:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is not possible for multiple rules to apply?
06:21:14 <b_jonas> right, it looks at two adjacent symbols always
06:21:36 <zzo38> The rule table is basically a function from a pair of symbols to a symbol and a mode, so always exactly one rule applies.
06:25:39 <b_jonas> ok, I guess you're right, PDA with the input on the one stack is probably the same power as a finite state machine
06:27:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes it does look like that to me too (I think)
06:27:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ligature Machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40126&oldid=40125 * Zzo38 * (+426) Combinations
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06:50:28 <oerjan> hm interesting. i suspect the color codes in HackEgo's announcements are the reason why IE won't recognize today's tunes logs as text.
06:51:31 <oerjan> (and thus refuse to open them in browser)
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06:57:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> I also see a "raw" download but that's not suitable for viewing in a browser. <-- that's what used to work but hgbrowser had some "security update" that disabled it opening in the browser.
06:57:25 <oerjan> i.e. `url used to give that link.
06:57:36 <shachaf> oerjan: I know it used to give that link.
06:58:04 <oerjan> and it's probably all about the text/plain mess ais523_ talked about
06:59:55 <zzo38> Depending on the browser, you may be able to get it to work by prepending "view-source:" to the URL.
07:00:38 <oerjan> i just tried that since elliott mentioned it in the log. IE seems to think i am trying to open an app and asks for security confirmation.
07:00:57 <oerjan> i didn't actually try confirming.
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07:03:16 <oerjan> instead i just used wget -O - ... | less in nvg's linux server.
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08:53:27 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
08:53:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/cat
08:55:10 <Melvar> I have a firefox addon that allows me to force something it wants to download to be opened in the browser instead, with the mimetype of my choice, with text/plain being the most frequent application for me.
08:57:34 <HackEgo> :-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ .hg \ .hg_archival.txt \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
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15:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish/Implementation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40127 * GermanyBoy * (+1732) Created page with "Goldfish implementation in C++ by [[User:GermanyBoy]]. <pre> #include <iostream> #include <fstream> #include <string> #include <cstdlib> using namespace std; const int SIZE ..."
15:21:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goldfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40128&oldid=40068 * GermanyBoy * (+81) /* See also */ added implementation
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16:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40129&oldid=39240 * Quintopia * (-7) Makes no sense to put the derivation of -1 after the first place it is used (in the derivation of e)
16:20:46 <quintopia> is there a difference between "the set of numbers output by an elementary function evaluated at 2" and "the set of computable numbers"?
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16:32:11 <quintopia> the internet is giving me any examples of "non-elementary computable numbers"
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16:48:32 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/taworvor/ :P
16:51:20 <b_jonas> quintopia: there are very likely much more computable numbers than elementary ones, though it's hard to prove that any particular number is computable but not elementary
16:51:58 <quintopia> b_jonas: i figured someone would have constructed one
16:52:10 <b_jonas> quintopia: constructing one is easy, proving is hard
16:52:15 <quintopia> are elementary numbers all primitive recursive?
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16:52:46 <b_jonas> you could hope that something like SUM_k 2**(-2**(2**(2**(2**k)))) is non-elementary, but I don't think you can prove it
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17:11:22 <mroman> and this time Strings are really just lists
17:11:32 <mroman> not some seperate datatype that required lots of hackery to make shit work
17:12:02 <mroman> I think some burlesque functions working on lists just converted strings into a list of characters
17:12:14 <mroman> and then make a hacky check if the resulting list starts with a character
17:12:18 <mroman> if so, convert back to string
17:12:35 <mroman> (because mapping over a list of characters not necessarily leads to a list of characters)
17:12:58 <mroman> although you're currently out of luck if you don't want a string as a result but your first element happens to be a character :D
17:13:16 <mroman> but nobody noticed this so far on code golf :D
17:20:08 <mroman> there's also two version of concat for this
17:20:12 <mroman> or at least two versions :)
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17:22:36 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
17:24:23 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
17:25:01 <mroman> it reverses the second argument
17:25:11 <mroman> creates a list of infinite copies of that
17:25:18 <mroman> and prefixes it with numbers from 1..infty
17:25:27 <blsqbot> Ain't nobody got time fo' dat!
17:25:42 <mroman> if the timeout would allow it :(
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17:49:22 <mroman_> with a 5.3 average (6.0 is maximum)
17:49:26 <coppro> I just completed the nintendo gallery
17:49:32 <coppro> they're roughly equal achievements :P
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18:05:43 <mroman_> !blsq {"abc" "def"}{"ghj" "klm"}?*
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18:25:07 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Taworvor <- and the repo is online
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19:31:32 <oerjan> quintopia: assuming you mean the ELEMENTARY complexity class, my hunch is for something like a real number encoding the diagonalization of all ELEMENTARY algorithms
19:32:11 <oerjan> hm, or even just the result of them
19:32:26 <oerjan> quintopia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY
19:33:09 <oerjan> if you instead mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_function, then there are no such numbers; f(x) = a is an elementary function for every number a
19:34:30 <quintopia> oerjan: yeah, i meant the set of numbers given by compositions of computable elementary functions evaluated at 2.
19:34:59 <oerjan> well in that case f(x) = a is still elementary, and computable if a is.
19:35:08 <elliott> [[SELECT.]] has lots of "it's" where it should have "its"
19:36:19 <elliott> or alternatively, yes, if you pay me $5 for the three minutes of work at $100/hr
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19:37:32 <quintopia> oerjan: what i am trying to get at is the set of numbers computable by SELECT. so, i guess the problem is that SELECT. can't use constants. i think this concept is captured in the concept of "elementary number"
19:38:15 <elliott> I would also throw in fixing the capitalisation of the headers for free.
19:38:19 <quintopia> elliott: its not bothering me enough to do it myself or pay anyone else ;)
19:39:24 <oerjan> hm the root taking looks like the tricky part, how do you bound the complexity of computing those
19:39:37 <elliott> quintopia: how about for $2.50?
19:39:37 <oerjan> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elementary_number)
19:41:41 <oerjan> except, SELECT. cannot take roots can it?
19:42:14 <elliott> quintopia: $0.3625, as per US federal minimum wage?
19:42:39 <elliott> at some point giving me money has to be less fuss than having me monologue-haggle with you
19:42:42 <oerjan> in that case, perhaps it cannot calculate all elementary numbers
19:42:51 <quintopia> elliott: okay, i'll pay that, minus the cost of the time it takes me to send the money, paid to me at the same wage
19:43:01 <elliott> quintopia: okay. do you have bitcoin?
19:43:36 <elliott> it's currently ~0.00056 BTC
19:44:26 <pikhq> I might have that in Doge.
19:45:23 <quintopia> oerjan: so what would be an example of a number it can't compute? perhaps just a random root of a random pentic equation?
19:45:34 <int-e> elliott: so how much time are you willing to invest failing to negotiate a fee for your services?
19:45:46 <elliott> int-e: it is its own reward
19:46:55 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't have the necessary expertise to find a more elegant answer than "something something halting problem/diagonalization over the complexity class that can compute all those numbers"
19:47:09 <elliott> there, edit completed, pending on payment :)
19:47:43 <elliott> (do I need to edit my user page to disclose a CoI?)
19:48:22 <oerjan> we accept all paid edits. in fact we'd _love_ it if the bancstar people did some.
19:48:36 <oerjan> well, some that improved the article, anyway.
19:49:25 * oerjan is having a hard time imagining a corporation wanting to pay for that.
19:50:05 <oerjan> quintopia: as in, for all i know SELECT. can't compute the roots of x^5 + x + 1 but i cannot prove it.
19:50:27 <oerjan> but there might be someone who can.
19:52:31 <oerjan> hm it's been a while since i checked up on bitcoin
19:52:39 <newsham_> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/900055/is-sql-or-even-tsql-turing-complete ?
19:53:20 <int-e> x^5+x+1 = (x^2+x+1) * (x^3-x^2+1). try again.
19:53:56 <oerjan> i thought that was the standard simplest example
19:54:25 <oerjan> of a primitive polynomial of fifth degree
19:54:49 <oerjan> and also something not solvable in radicals
19:54:50 <int-e> x^5+x^2+1 is irreducible.
19:55:53 <oerjan> @check \x -> x^5 + (x::Int) + 1 == (x^2+x+1) * (x^3-x^2+1)
19:56:52 <int-e> (I'm using pari/gp for this btw. it has a neat factor() function that works for single variable polynomials with integer coefficients. (and also over GF(p), but I'm not sure about other finite fields))
19:57:33 <oerjan> i suppose i've just internalized it wrongly as "the simplest example you can think of that isn't obviously reducible, isn't."
19:58:48 <int-e> if you stare at it long enough, the third root of unity "obviously" satisfies x^5+x+1 = 0.
19:59:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SELECT.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40130&oldid=40129 * Ehird * (+339) general cleanup. I was meant to be paid for this edit.
20:00:11 <newsham_> ?let forceInt :: Int -> Int; forceInt = id
20:01:14 <int-e> @type (`asTypeOf` oneInt)
20:02:17 <quintopia> int-e: don't you mean the third root of -1?
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20:02:44 <quintopia> i guess i didn't stare long enough
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20:03:09 <int-e> quintopia: for the third root of unity, x^5 = x^2, so we get x^2+x+1.
20:03:10 <quintopia> if l is the third root of unity, then l^5=l^2 right? oh
20:03:31 <oerjan> the third root of unity which isn't 1, naturally
20:04:31 <int-e> a primitive third root of unity, really.
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20:04:43 <quintopia> i'm still not seeing why x^2+x=-1 visually
20:05:27 <oerjan> quintopia: 1, x and x^2 are in an equilateral triangle around zero, that's pretty visual
20:05:27 <int-e> quintopia: leave it as x^2+x+1, then it's a nicely symmetric star. (oh it also satisfies x*(x^2+x+1) = x^2+x+1)
20:06:13 <int-e> and then, of course, you can look at (x^2+x+1)*(x-1) = x^3-1.
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20:06:24 <int-e> but that's algebraic
20:06:45 <int-e> (x*(x^2+x+1) = x^2+x+1 is inbetween: multiplying by x is a rotation)
20:09:05 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA! of course!
20:10:05 <int-e> oh the other kind of "this place"
20:10:14 <quintopia> la terrible is my favorite beer ever
20:10:30 <int-e> (not knowing the "eau benite" brand of beer didn't help)
20:11:05 <boily> I never heard of the Eau Bénite.
20:11:35 <int-e> holy water?! strange name ... though that goes for a lot of beer brands
20:11:49 <quintopia> i'd consider going to quebec just to visit unibroue and try everything
20:12:03 <oerjan> int-e: i thought it was some subtle praise of the channel
20:12:07 <boily> you should also try those from RJ, and then all the microbrasseries :D
20:12:53 <boily> http://www.troududiable.com/spip.php?rubrique5 ← they make my favourites.
20:13:02 <boily> http://www.brasseursrj.com/
20:13:55 <boily> from RJ, my favourite is the Coup de Grisou.
20:14:19 <quintopia> rj says the english version of their site is not available
20:14:35 <quintopia> you should email them "i'll translate your website for a big sample box"
20:16:23 <Taneb> Help I'm trying to learn Erlang
20:17:08 <boily> quintopia: you should come to Montréal during the Mondial de la Bière. it has beers.
20:17:15 <boily> Taneb: that's good!
20:17:51 <Taneb> boily, I'm feeling a feeling I haven't felt since I first learnt Haskell
20:18:06 <quintopia> boily: any independent coding projects?
20:18:53 <boily> Taneb: are you titillated? nonplussed? flummoxed? intrigued? chagrined? dazzled? mystified? recumbent?
20:19:25 <boily> quintopia: I haven't abandoned yet the yucca project. real life got in the way, but it's still being planned.
20:19:38 <Taneb> "Whoa this is a weird way of doing things but I can sort of see how it works"
20:19:59 <quintopia> boily: is real life out of the way yet?
20:20:14 <boily> quite the opposite.
20:22:53 <quintopia> not as good as terrible, but still delicious
20:26:52 <oerjan> who wants water with holes in it anyway
20:27:09 <quintopia> because those holes are filled with delicious CO2
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20:28:39 <oerjan> those are not holes. this is a hole http://what-if.xkcd.com/6/
20:29:11 <boily> hm. levitating beer.
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21:19:36 <int-e> hmm what happened to the brainfuck survey?
21:19:58 <int-e> I mean is there any conclusion? Are there any consequences?
21:51:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40131&oldid=40118 * Rdebath * (+17) /* Current languages to go back to. */
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22:02:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spacechem Programming Language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40132 * Jfb * (+324) Created Spacechem page
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22:24:48 <newsham_> go usa! we just tracked down and arrested a domestic terror cell of mink liberators!
22:25:37 <newsham_> i for one sleep easier at night knowing that the minkacolypse is not looming just over the horizon
22:25:52 <newsham_> crap, wrong channel, sorry #esoteric
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22:27:54 <oerjan> argh why does the heat wave keep prolonging with each forecast
22:28:32 <Taneb> oerjan, the heat wave's length doubles every 1.5 days
22:28:44 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:30:03 <shachaf> what constitutes a heat wave in trondheim
22:30:31 <Taneb> I wonder if the Purely Functional Data Structures book is useful for Erlang
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22:37:16 <oerjan> shachaf: the forecast has all these scary 28 numbers
22:38:23 <oerjan> but it's been up to 31
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23:56:55 <^v> vifino, u wana go u little shit
23:57:29 * ^v slaps the fuq out of vifino
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