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00:30:31 <zzo38> My computer monitor has a picture size slightly more than 13x10 inches.
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01:03:52 <zzo38> Do you have a C program to implement each step of a NMOS 6502 which is public domain (or other GPL-compatible)?
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01:24:35 <Bike> http://www.6502.org/tools/emu/ ?
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01:33:39 <zzo38> No, I cannot find it there.
01:36:42 <Taneb> I don't want to sleep there are some sort of bugs here
01:38:11 <zzo38> lib6502 does not implement each cycle individually and implements the CMOS version, not NMOS.
01:38:46 <zzo38> I would wanted one that acts as a state machine, too.
01:39:37 <oerjan> there was an old Taneb who swallowed a fly
01:39:54 <zzo38> I have used lib6502 and it is suitable for the application I used it for, but now I have a different application therefore it is not suitable.
01:39:59 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't mind bugs etc individually
01:40:12 <Taneb> But there seems to be thousands of them, by which I mean at least three
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01:41:43 <Taneb> There's a smallish moth, what I think is a crane fly
01:41:52 <Taneb> And a lot of very small insects
01:48:45 <Taneb> I will try to sleep!
01:57:37 <zzo38> I found a file called "fake6502.c" which is almost exactly what I am looking for: It is public domain, runs one step one at a time (exec6502 function), and even includes the "UNDOCUMENTED" and "NES_CPU" defines which are what I require. However, it does not actually implement each step individually (it executes the entire instruction during the first step), and doesn't do some minor things such as INC first writing the old value and then the new v
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02:00:09 <zzo38> It also does not appear to implement interrupt latency correctly.
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02:21:06 <zzo38> I don't care if register accesses happen during the correct cycle, since that does not affect anything external. However, all I/O should happen during the correct cycle.
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03:26:44 <newsham_> zzo38: are you familiar with visual6502?
03:37:36 <zzo38> newsham_: I think I have heard of it.
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04:04:26 <zzo38> How many states would a cycle accurate NMOS 6502 VM have?
04:04:50 <zzo38> (Counting only the states for instruction execution, not such things as registers and flags and so on.)
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04:11:07 <zzo38> Will GCC perform extra optimizations on things declared as static (including possibly changing the calling conventions)?
04:42:52 <shachaf> zzo38: If it sees that a function is only used once, it can inline it when it's static.
04:43:03 <shachaf> (And it does in this small example.)
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04:51:06 <zzo38> I suppose it can't if it is used as a function pointer in a table, though.
04:55:21 <zzo38> But can such static optimization ever do anything else?
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08:23:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Extended Foo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40181&oldid=12703 * Rdebath * (-30) A rnd(n) function is not sufficient for the language to be considered nondeterministic.
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08:30:08 <fizzie> zzo38: There was a project to add more interprocedural things to GCC than just in inlining some years ago, but I don't know what came of it.
08:31:52 <fizzie> It was supposed to learn about things like constant propagation and side effect tracking across functions, and I guess maybe static could add more freedom for that sort of stuff.
08:35:09 <fizzie> Oh, and with the profile-guided stuff, also a kind of partial inlining where a short most-likely-to-run part is inlined at call sites while unlikely code is done with a function call.
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08:36:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Intolerant]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40182&oldid=14844 * Rdebath * (+74) /* Implementation */ new section
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08:47:31 <fizzie> Well, would you look at that, it actually does that.
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08:51:35 <fizzie> http://paste.ubuntu.com/7873236/
08:52:14 <fizzie> (Probably does not apply to your function-pointer-in-a-table scenario, of course.)
08:53:24 <fizzie> (I also like how it has grokked that the test has proven rdi to be zero, so it is enough to move a value to dil.)
08:55:55 <fizzie> (Also the only effect of "static" in my pasted example is whether it also adds a http://paste.ubuntu.com/7873266/ or not to satisfy potential external callers; it does the same partial inlining for a, b, c anyway.)
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09:34:57 <Vorpal> <fizzie> It was supposed to learn about things like constant propagation and side effect tracking across functions, and I guess maybe static could add more freedom for that sort of stuff. <-- static certainly does affect what GCC does from what I remember.
09:35:41 <Vorpal> But indeed, it doesn't help if you use function pointers to it
09:35:50 <Vorpal> Unless GCC has gotten real clever
09:41:01 <fizzie> I'm sure it can eliminate function pointers in trivial cases (like if you replace func(); with void (*f)(void) = func; f(x); ) but probably not if it's a table and a computed index to it.
09:41:43 <fizzie> The inline-only-a-little-bit trick was neat.
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10:47:02 <coppro> does anyone know anything like grep, but to work for binary data?
10:47:13 <coppro> I don't need regexes, just string search that handles arbitrary bytes
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11:41:49 <FreeFull> coppro: Do you need the location inside the file, or do you just want to know if it matches?
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14:27:18 <TieSoul> what does that even do? randomly insert "ello" in there?
14:27:46 <boily> something like that.
14:27:59 <TieSoul> somewhere with an 'o', preferably, it seems
14:28:21 <boily> well. it has an algorithm in it. it does stuff.
14:28:36 <TieSoul> I want to figure out its semantics :P
14:28:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: et: not found
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14:31:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ̀`: not found
14:31:15 <boily> aaaaurgh. the shortcut ain't be workin anymore.
14:31:34 <TieSoul> two vowels at the begin means 'hell' is added to the start
14:32:32 <HackEgo> [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0300 COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT]
14:33:03 <Melvar> I thought that line looked fishy.
14:33:16 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env node \ // Generated by CoffeeScript 1.6.2 \ (function() { \ var consonant_then_o, ell_manglable, ends_with_consonant, ends_with_consonant_then_vowel, name, starts_with_o; \ \ name = process.argv[2]; \ \ if (!(name != null ? name.length : void 0)) { \ console.log('Usage: ello <name>'); \ process.exit(); \ } \ \
14:33:47 <boily> uhm. wut? once it was written in ruby, then now it's... coffeescript??? who the fungot wrote that?
14:33:47 <fungot> boily: fnord/ index2.htm apparently lets you order various printed reference manuals for current sunos object files and reference manuals for free
14:34:24 <TieSoul> can someone tell me what the heck is that code?
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14:38:52 <elliott> okay so who the fuck... was it sgeo
14:38:54 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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14:42:05 <Melvar> Really? No “Mellovar”?
14:43:23 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `bin/{node,ello}': No such file or directory
14:43:40 <elliott> I don't know what that program does but it is not a Look Around You reference and I therefore don't care about it
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14:49:27 <boily> I have this urge to mapole elliott, but I'm a sane person and won't act upon it.
14:49:52 <elliott> I am infinitely more powerful than you, and your mapole.
14:51:10 <boily> I concur. all hail our ellioverlord!
14:51:30 <elliott> your hailing means nothing to me.
14:52:18 <boily> if hail doesn't work, will snow or sludge do the job?
14:53:31 <elliott> I anticipated that joke and decided not to make it.
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15:09:05 <TieSoul> okay, I'm going to try and make Eitherfuck, with [ and ].
15:09:11 <TieSoul> could I still call it Eitherfuck?
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15:27:01 <boily> TieSoul: I think it'd be more eithery if you implement either [ or ].
15:27:28 <TieSoul> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Eitherf*ck
15:27:37 <TieSoul> wow the link is cut off because of the *
15:32:01 <TieSoul> it just compiles to brainfuck then executes that.
15:32:06 <TieSoul> wasn't hard at all to make
15:34:03 <TieSoul> in any case, I've been implementing too many Brainfuck derivatives lately
15:34:09 <TieSoul> I need to come up with some new idea
15:36:58 <boily> I find the more mind-screwey esolangs out there are those that eschew traditional arithmetic, and need you to combine stuff together in unconventional ways to achieve basic tasks.
15:37:14 <boily> if you haven't had your brains smashed yet by underload, now is as good as ever.
15:37:37 <boily> (also, malbolge, because malbolge.)
15:38:58 <myname> TieSoul: i do think if yiu make to much bf you will lose the ability to come up wuth something new
15:45:50 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ello
15:46:08 <fizzie> I don't mind spoling myself... except it didn't work.
15:47:30 <myname> i don't get the koöakoski sequence
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16:01:24 <boily> myname: you're either on an estonian, finnish or swedish keyboard layout.
16:01:41 <boily> (or probably swiss.)
16:02:09 <boily> darn again. today is not my day.
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17:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40183 * Rdebath * (+5003) I've been meaning to create this page for a while.
17:10:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40184&oldid=40183 * Rdebath * (+7) The universe did not start in 1993
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17:40:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40185&oldid=40180 * Rdebath * (+433) /* Physics */
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18:35:15 <ais523_> Microsoft provide a download-to-run-on-another-computer installation of the Windows 8.1 SDK
18:35:35 <ais523_> however, they don't provide it as a download
18:35:41 <ais523_> instead, you have to install and run a program to get hold of it
18:35:45 <ais523_> let me see if it works in Wine
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18:39:40 <ais523_> Microsoft simply do not seem to understand that some people might not have an Internet-connected Windows computer to use on which they can run arbitrary programs
18:39:56 <ais523_> my issue is that all the Internet connections I can use are locked down in some way or another
18:43:26 <ais523_> well, apparently the boot timed out, and now it's pegging three CPU cores
18:43:36 <ais523_> with no visible progress other than "modify_ldt: Invalid argument"
18:46:24 <elliott> ais523_: they do understand, they just don't care
18:46:33 <elliott> (it is, after all, the Windows 8.1 SDK)
18:46:54 <ais523> elliott: because if they want people developing for their system
18:47:01 <ais523> then they will need to make that possible
18:47:15 <elliott> ais523: obviously not, plenty of people develop for windows 8.1
18:47:23 <olsner> I wonder if LDT means local descriptor table (maybe your presumably-linux system is locked down somehow that doesn't work with wine)
18:47:35 <elliott> microsoft don't care either way whether you do or not... the kind of people who want to use the windows 8.1 sdk but don't have an internet-connected windows computer are insignificant to them
18:47:42 <elliott> because they're all weirdos like you :P
18:48:05 <ais523> @tell oerjan I consider the top-level "load more comments" at the bottom of the page to load the second page of comments, I guess that's terminology that's a little inaccurate
18:48:39 <ais523> I wonder if Visual Studio still a) has the SDK bundled, and b) has an offline install that actually works
18:48:41 <ais523> if so I could use that
18:49:09 <ais523> also, they removed cl.exe from the SDK :-(
18:49:37 <ais523> which is actually pretty bad news if they didn't move it somewhere else, because it makes it impossible to write a cross-platform makefile that uses the Microsoft toolchian
18:49:45 <ais523> they're basically forcing people to use mingw instead
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18:50:18 <elliott> I do not believe that the command-line compiler is gone. not in the slightest
18:50:57 <ais523> but the way you get it isn't the same as what it used to be, so to use it, I'll need to find out the new method
18:51:06 <zzo38> Well, I do use MinGW at least; since you can then use GCC whether the program is on Windows or on Linux.
18:54:10 <ais523> hmm, the entire Visual Studio download process redirects between several pages, each of which requires JavaScript to display anything but a "this doesn't work without JavaScript" message
18:55:24 <boily> something, somewhere, went horribly wrong.
18:55:40 <ais523> and now it thinks I have cookies disabled even though I accepted them
18:55:49 <ais523> let me try this in Chromium
18:56:03 <ais523> my non-locked-down browser
19:08:24 * boily gently pokes ais523. “so, what happens next?”
19:09:40 <ais523> whatever happens next is still happening
19:09:53 <ais523> Wine's now pegged three CPUs for half an hour
19:09:56 <ais523> I think I'm going to kill it
19:10:44 <ais523> and I did manage an ISO download via Chromium, even though I had to reset the password to my Microsoft Account in the process because I couldn't exactly remember what it was
19:10:53 <ais523> was lucky I even figured out which email address I must have used
19:14:05 <ais523> If you haven't already, your next step is to get a FREE Visual Studio Online account, with Visual Studio Online you can
19:14:07 <ais523> Create and host private source code repos in the cloud, including Git.
19:14:08 <ais523> Keep yourself and your team on track with agile planning tools.
19:14:10 <ais523> Invite others to collaborate on your project.
19:14:55 <ais523> I am annoyed enough at Github trying to make a code hosting site into a social media site
19:15:10 <ais523> up to this point, it hadn't even crossed my mind that someone might try to make an IDE into a social media site
19:19:18 <int-e> pair programming is obsolete, crowd programming is the future?
19:21:33 <int-e> "private", "cloud", hmm.
19:22:14 <boily> I like pair programming.
19:24:01 <int-e> oh well, microsoft has always been good at vendor lockin.
19:24:30 <Bike> s/cloud/butt/g, hth.
19:38:12 <zzo38> ais523: I don't care, because Github is not the only code hosting site, for one thing.
19:38:27 <ais523> zzo38: well, I use Gitorious for my git hosting
19:38:37 <ais523> but have to use Github for work
19:39:02 <ais523> Bike: apparently there have been major issues caused by cloud-to-butt, especially people failing to turn it off during tech support conversations
19:45:34 <zzo38> Do you know of Fossil version system though? Some people prefer it over git.
19:48:19 <ais523> I often use darcs for my own projects
19:48:31 <boily> there are people besides sqlite using fossil?
19:48:52 <zzo38> I don't know, but I have read somewhere who suggests that a few people do.
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21:35:23 <ais523_> OK, so I got Visual Studio Express 2013 installed
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21:35:40 <ais523_> apparently, the offline installer works, however it will only install a 30 day free trial without Internet access
21:36:50 <ais523_> this is a regression from Visual Studio Express 2011
21:39:09 <ais523_> official word from Microsoft: http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/7d376cfb-5b2c-4542-acea-02dab2a03c69/offline-activation-of-visual-studio-2013-express-license-has-expired?forum=visualstudiogeneral
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22:06:45 <Vorpal> ais523_, hm why? The express version is free, so there is no point in doing a trial of it
22:07:54 <ais523_> Vorpal: I think Microsoft want usage data, and are prepared to force people to connect to the Internet every 30 days to get it
22:08:11 <ais523_> or maybe to make it inconvenient to use in businesses so that people buy the paid version
22:09:18 <Vorpal> Well, not sure it is inconvenient require internet every 30 days
22:09:43 <Vorpal> Most people writing code probably is on internet sometime in any given 30 day span
22:10:00 <Vorpal> Unless of course it needs internet exactly every 30 days (rather than a sliding window)
22:12:15 <fizzie> I don't think it even needs internet every 30 days.
22:12:21 <fizzie> Just once during the initial 30 days.
22:13:35 <fizzie> Which might still be a problem for some sort of "no unfettered internet connection on this server" kind of scenario, as alluded to in that discussion thread.
22:14:59 <fizzie> You mean the reply? I guess the "extend the license beyond the trial period" is a bit vague.
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22:16:13 <lambdabot> ais523 said 3h 28m 7s ago: I consider the top-level "load more comments" at the bottom of the page to load the second page of comments, I guess that's terminology that's a little inaccurate
22:16:27 -!- TieSoul has joined.
22:16:31 <fizzie> Another random forum post says "-- will extend the "trial period" by a further 90 days each time you do it --".
22:17:46 <fizzie> "The trial period for Express editions of Visual Studio is also 30 days. To indefinitely extend the trial period for Express editions of Visual Studio, sign in to Visual Studio or register the product." http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg442061.aspx
22:17:55 <fizzie> "Internet access is required to register and unlock any edition of Visual Studio. After Visual Studio is registered, though, an internet connection is optional."
22:18:32 <fizzie> I guess that's still slightly ambiguous, since I don't know what "registering" means.
22:18:47 <fizzie> And the "indefinitely extend" might still mean something to be done repeatedly.
22:20:40 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:20:57 <fizzie> There's a 34-page "Visual Studio and MSDN Licensing White Paper" but it only briefly mentions the Express products.
22:21:06 <fizzie> It's a good thing they haven't made the licensing complicated.
22:23:18 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/lua matches \ Binary file bin/luac matches \ Binary file bin/macro matches \ Binary file bin/ploki matches \ Binary file bin/tclkit matches \ Binary file bin/udcli matches \ Binary file bin/units matches
22:23:52 <oerjan> `` grep 'env node' bin/*
22:28:12 <oerjan> @tell boily i'd like to recommend fueue. it _has_ somewhat traditional arithmetic, and *still* screws your mind.
22:29:12 <oerjan> @tell boily as in, programming in fueue starts at the point where you already master underload.
22:32:26 <oerjan> yay i can see the real wiki
22:32:48 <oerjan> myname: which kolakoski sequence were you having trouble with?
22:34:25 <ais523_> I like the way that Fueue uses entirely digits and punctuation, apart from one letter
22:34:45 <myname> i just cannot figure out how to read it so that it is run-length encoded
22:36:20 <oerjan> myname: it gives only the run length, not the actual digits, which always alternate between 1 and 2
22:37:31 <myname> that actually makes sense
22:38:36 <oerjan> > fix$([1,2]++).drop 2.concat.flip(zipWith replicate)(cycle[1,2])
22:38:37 <lambdabot> [1,2,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,2,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,1,2,1,1,2,1,2,2,1,2...
22:41:49 -!- mhi^ has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
22:44:20 <myname> somebody asked for a language that seems easy enough to try writing problems in it whilst not being hard enough to just generate them
22:44:28 <myname> i.do think fueue qualifies for thaz
22:45:38 <ais523_> INTERCAL probably counts too, at least only very simple INTERCAL has been generated
22:45:48 <ais523_> because its everything-is-global style is hard for code generators to reason with, really
22:45:51 <ais523_> I mean, more global than that
22:46:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40186&oldid=40166 * Oerjan * (-15) You don't get to make redlinks if you don't know the alphabet.
22:47:19 * oerjan isn't sure if ais523_ is interpreting myname backwards or not
22:47:40 <ais523_> oerjan: oh, I interpreted it half-backwards
22:47:53 <ais523_> "easy enough for humans to still be able to write in it, while hard enough that code generators are bad at targeting it"
22:49:10 <oerjan> myname: i wrote most (all?) of the fueue programs, without a generator, although it would probably have been much simpler to make a generator for all the delaying stuff.
22:49:31 <oerjan> well, less work all over.
22:49:50 <ais523_> oerjan: now I'm wondering what a Fueue self-interp would be like
22:50:04 <ais523_> err, one with eigenratio > 1, that is
22:51:24 <oerjan> some other languages i _did_ write generators for, like Emmental.
22:52:10 <oerjan> and /// when i programmed with only / and \
22:52:26 <ais523_> I thought only / and \ made /// easier
22:52:29 <ais523_> fewer characters to escape
22:52:39 <oerjan> ...the other way around.
22:53:09 <oerjan> / and \ are the characters that _always_ must be escaped.
22:53:29 <ais523_> oerjan: oh, I mean, when copying
22:53:31 <oerjan> but that i could have done with just some vim substitution.
22:53:35 <ais523_> you have to have copy code for every character in your program
22:54:17 <oerjan> ais523_: i can assure you almost everything about programming /// becomes easier when you can use non-/\ characters.
22:54:25 <ais523_> maybe that's what I was doing wrong
22:54:33 <ais523_> I was also working on an infinite loop in ///
22:54:39 <ais523_> and decided that / and \ only was easiest
22:54:48 <ais523_> I mostly gave up before you started
22:54:50 <oerjan> but the real hard part with programming just /\ by hand is of course that you cannot possibly read it.
22:55:15 <elliott> you need syntax highlighting.
22:55:46 <ais523_> oerjan: that was also a problem, yes
22:56:01 <oerjan> ais523_: mind you, the _principle_ of an infinite loop isn't much different with just /\ than without, you just get more succinct and readable with other characters.
22:56:05 <ais523_> esolangs seem particularly prone to write-only code
22:56:21 <ais523_> oerjan: I pretty much had the principle figured, just couldn't translate it to code
22:57:18 <oerjan> however /\ adds extra complications like that you need your escaping tokens not to clash accidentally with other code.
22:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pure BF/Implementation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40187&oldid=27434 * Ais523 * (+76) add download link, because constructing one of those in MediaWiki is pretty hard if you don't know how; the text/css is a famous workaround to the IE text/plain XSS bug, explaining the details probably wouldn't fit in the edit summary
23:01:09 <ais523_> <VIOLET on Esolang> and the dreaded GOTO statement, here particularly problematic because line numbers aren't hard set but based on file position
23:01:25 <ais523_> that's utter genius, why did no esolang think of that before? (SORTED almost counts)
23:01:55 <ais523_> although I'm not 100% sure those code samples are public domain
23:02:19 <ais523_> and those categories are really suspicious
23:02:30 <oerjan> ais523_: oh i see what you mean with "copy code for every character in your program", that's like in the first loop i wrote, and i suppose for that having just /\ _might_ simplify things. but the later method based on quoting tokens is definitely easier with more characters.
23:02:53 <ais523_> ah right, I forgot about that new method
23:09:55 <oerjan> @ask zzo38 You added [[Uncontrollable]] to the Joke Language List, but there is no such article. Do you have a link or description?
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23:15:04 <ais523_> This program by Ørjan Johansen loops indefinitely, (slowly) printing longer and longer lines of asterisks. <-- I actually use that as my test to see if a language is probably Turing-complete
23:15:26 <ais523_> if it can do that without any features obviously designed to let it do that in particular, then it seems very likely to be TC
23:18:13 <oerjan> ais523_: now prove unlambda TC with only `rcd.* >:)
23:18:44 <oerjan> (that's famously enough to do that task)
23:19:12 <oerjan> yes, so i guess you can leave them out or replace by i if you want
23:19:13 <ais523_> so I think `cd would be a much more interesting subset
23:19:39 <oerjan> well .* and r have the same pure effect part as i
23:19:40 <ais523_> this is like subtle cough but actually interesting
23:20:09 <oerjan> (note: i don't actually believe that this _is_ TC, but you might surprise me like i did with underload)
23:20:47 <ais523_> oh, the point is that it's enough to do the longer-lines-of-asterisks, but not obviously enough to show TCness?
23:20:47 <oerjan> oh and the d's can be replaced by i's as well
23:21:13 <oerjan> (but the program is usually shown with d's for added weirdness, i guess.)
23:21:24 <ais523_> d might make a difference for TCness as a whole
23:21:48 <ais523_> one problem with d is that its semantics are really hard to get your head around and I'm not 100% sure all interps implement it correctly
23:21:56 <ais523_> do you have one that's known to get it right?
23:22:07 <oerjan> yeah that seems likely. in fact pretty sure, because without it you just have subtle cough + i, which i'm pretty sure i've proved gives only 1 more program
23:23:55 <oerjan> i've never had problems with d with the distribution's C interpreter (that has a bug with e though)
23:24:21 <ais523_> how can you get /e/ wrong?
23:24:46 <oerjan> which curiously means that afaik, you can use my unlambda self interpreter to correct the problem, because e is the _only_ function i don't self-implement :P
23:25:46 <ais523_> but if e is buggy without self-interpreting, and you use the same buggy e, wouldn't it still be buggy?
23:26:23 <oerjan> i said e is the only function which my interpreter _doesn't_ implement in terms of itself.
23:26:37 <ais523_> oh, I misinterpreted "self-implement"
23:26:41 <ais523_> does it interpret it in terms of c?
23:27:14 <oerjan> yeah, i pass the top continuation around, and that's equivalent to e.
23:27:43 <oerjan> i originally did this to have the theoretical possibility to embed the self-interpreter in another program.
23:28:11 <oerjan> by passing a less top continuation instead.
23:28:37 <ais523_> that's why I thought you did that
23:31:49 <oerjan> also, the C interpreter has a EOF == char 255 bug in some circumstances, which is particularly important when iterating my interpreter (thus there's the .unl2 version which drops the 255 character from the character table)
23:32:39 <oerjan> (basically it does ye olde saving getchar into a char thing)
23:41:58 <oerjan> i suppose i should also be able to vouch for the haskell unlambda interpreter, since that's based on my code.
23:43:40 <oerjan> (i'm _pretty_ sure haskell unlambda interpreters already existed when i wrote mine, but it still is what got into hackage.)
23:45:20 <oerjan> i've occasionally pondered writing one which _doesn't_ use a continuation monad, but instead is thoroughly reified so you can print all terms.
23:45:43 <elliott> you could CPS-transform, even, I guess?
23:45:47 <oerjan> (including continuation terms, using the notation i invented on the wiki)
23:46:30 <oerjan> well it should be easy, it would basically be the data structure i already used in the INTERCAL one
23:46:53 <oerjan> (which _had_ to be thoroughly reified, given my then INTERCAL knowledge)
23:47:25 <oerjan> elliott: CPS-transform doesn't give you printable continuations.
23:47:40 <elliott> oerjan: it does as long as your functions are printable?
23:48:13 <elliott> CPS transform might be weird with d or whatever though I guess.
23:48:54 <oerjan> i _did_ manage it in the Ocaml "compiler". afair it handles d and CPS transforms.
23:49:43 <oerjan> well for a certain value of handles.
23:51:19 <oerjan> although the real way of looking at this is really as graph rewriting.
23:52:26 <oerjan> or to put it weirder, a continuation is the same as an expression zipper.
23:53:41 <oerjan> with some limitations on where you can have not yet evaluated expression parts.
23:54:40 <oerjan> (although you could say d somewhat relaxes that limitation again)
23:55:58 <elliott> `addquote <oerjan> or to put it weirder, a continuation is the same as an expression zipper.
23:56:00 <HackEgo> 1213) <oerjan> or to put it weirder, a continuation is the same as an expression zipper.