←2014-07-25 2014-07-26 2014-07-27→ ↑2014 ↑all
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00:04:48 <Koen_> zzo38: I've heard you talking about those puzzles on several occasions, but I've never seen one
00:06:47 <zzo38> Koen_: Can you play Pokemon Card at all? I can show you the puzzles. See http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/pokemon_card/puzzle.1 up to puzzle.5 and see terminology.txt for a glossary.
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00:07:33 <zzo38> Do you understand any of them?
00:09:23 <Koen_> well I haven't played since I was 7 or 8
00:10:12 <zzo38> If you have questions about the rules, I can answer them.
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00:15:42 <zzo38> The file puzzle.4 is made by someone else, although the other four are made by me.
00:16:30 <Koen_> so the puzzle.n file describes a situation, and I must find winning moves?
00:16:38 <zzo38> Yes.
00:17:48 <zzo38> You have to find winning moves regardless of what the irrelevant cards/quantities are and how coin tosses and other random things come up and how the opponent's decisions are made. However, the solution might fork in some cases based on such things.
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00:23:38 <zzo38> Now perhaps you can see if you know the first one.
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02:34:29 <Sgeo> `hpmorlist
02:34:29 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hpmorlist: not found
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02:41:52 <oerjan> `cat bin/createlist
02:41:53 <HackEgo> cat: bin/createlist: No such file or directory
02:42:03 <oerjan> `` ls bin/*list
02:42:04 <HackEgo> bin/danddreclist \ bin/emptylist \ bin/erflist \ bin/instalist \ bin/list \ bin/llist \ bin/makelist \ bin/mlist \ bin/olist \ bin/pbflist \ bin/slist \ bin/smlist \ bin/testlist
02:42:14 <oerjan> `cat bin/makelist
02:42:15 <HackEgo> cp bin/emptylist bin/"$1"
02:43:42 <Sgeo> Oh, there is an actual erflist?
02:43:43 <Sgeo> Oops
02:44:14 <oerjan> `cat bin/instalist
02:44:15 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi
02:44:36 <oerjan> wat
02:45:30 <oerjan> `` ls bin/*or*
02:45:31 <HackEgo> bin/forget \ bin/fortune \ bin/joustreport \ bin/morse-decode \ bin/ord \ bin/ordu \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/print_args_or_input \ bin/rainwords \ bin/word \ bin/words
02:45:43 <oerjan> `cat bin/print_args_or_input
02:45:44 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ if [ "$#" -gt 0 ]; then printf '%s\n' "$*"; else cat; fi
02:45:54 <oerjan> hm
02:46:07 <oerjan> `run grep 'instalist` bin/*
02:46:08 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
02:46:15 <oerjan> `run grep 'instalist' bin/*
02:46:20 <HackEgo> No output.
02:46:39 <oerjan> `rm bin/instalist
02:46:41 <HackEgo> No output.
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02:48:48 <zzo38> O, hello, it broke temporarily after "`cat bin/instalist"
02:49:12 <oerjan> what did
02:49:23 <zzo38> The connection
02:51:00 <oerjan> well there was some more HackEgo probing ending with me removing the file (as it was a redundant unused copy of bin/print_args_or_input)
02:52:02 <zzo38> O, so that's what it was. OK
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03:05:47 <elliott> the letters h p m o and r next to each other are banned now
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03:07:04 <oerjan> elliott: did it jump the shark
03:07:22 <elliott> it started well past the shark
03:07:49 <oerjan> did mary sue harry
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03:32:32 <Sgeo> hromp
03:34:26 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o elliott.
03:34:30 -!- elliott has kicked Sgeo you thought I was joking.
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03:49:22 <Bike> I like HP more than I like IBM
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04:04:20 <oerjan> @quote zygohist
04:04:20 <lambdabot> EvilTerran says: the same place of nightmares that spawned zygohistomorphic prepromorphisms :P
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04:04:33 <oerjan> elliott: now you must kick lambdabot hth
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04:06:08 -!- oerjan has set topic: elliott bans category theory on channel | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
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06:47:39 <myname> no more monads?
06:52:37 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
06:58:50 <prooftechnique> Monads considered endomorphisms in the category of harmful things
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07:57:29 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about monads in groupoids?
08:01:31 <FireFly> `ls
08:01:32 <HackEgo> ​:-( \ 98076 \ a \ app.sh \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dog \ etc \ factor \ fb \ fb.c \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ ibin \ index.html \ interps \ lib \ moop.txt \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test \ Test \ Test.hi \ Test.hs \ unpa \ UNPA \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
08:01:43 <FireFly> `run grep morp quotes
08:01:44 <HackEgo> ​<ais523> oerjan: humans are very hard to anthropomorphise \ <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
08:01:54 <FireFly> hm.
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08:13:37 <zzo38> shachaf: No, I don't know; do you know?
08:14:01 <shachaf> zzo38: Vaguely but I was hoping that you would know more.
08:14:16 <zzo38> Well, at this time, I do not know.
08:14:51 <shachaf> I know what a monad in a group (1-object groupoid) is.
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09:23:50 <Vorpal> <oerjan> i thought we had a non-strange person in the channel but then i learned Vorpal works on cool robots <-- hm?
09:24:09 <Vorpal> Well I guess you could call the autonomous mining machines I work on robots
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09:44:26 <int-e> @botsnack
09:44:26 <lambdabot> :)
10:02:51 <int-e> Ok, lambdabot; lambdabot got disconnected from its server 1:21 CEST and didn't manage to reconnect until about 9 minutes later.
10:05:02 <int-e> (it's using the chat.freenode.net rotation for DNS lookup, so it should find a working server eventually.)
10:05:49 <fizzie> fungot: Did you hear that? Why can't you figure out how to use DNS, too?
10:05:49 <fungot> fizzie: what do you want to compile
10:32:40 <int-e> fungot: fizzie wants to recompile you, I think
10:32:41 <fungot> int-e: so how does the model of concurrency employed by erlang termite, based on structures to open ( we'll get to this point in time
10:33:04 <int-e> "termite", brilliant.
10:46:34 <fizzie> I can't find "erlang termite" in my logs.
10:47:19 <fizzie> Oh, it's lost some punctuation. I wonder how that happened.
10:48:02 <fizzie> It's from <Riastradh> yome, what term would you use to refer to the model of concurrency employed by Erlang & Termite, based on the three primitives (SPAWN thunk) -> pid, (SEND pid message), & (RECEIVE) -> message, for asynchronous SEND & synchronous RECEIVE?
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10:59:04 <TieSoul> hey
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11:40:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40179&oldid=39864 * 86.6.153.79 * (+133) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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11:51:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40180&oldid=40179 * Haael * (+898) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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13:06:47 <oerjan> <fizzie> Oh, it's lost some punctuation. I wonder how that happened. <-- has anyone seen fungot use a &
13:06:47 <fungot> oerjan: but it's yucky!?! :p) then performed operations on it
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13:07:04 <oerjan> fungot: so that's why you don't use it?
13:07:04 <fungot> oerjan: oh well, it is very annoying
13:07:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: In which fungot reveals his burning hate of the ampersand | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
13:08:12 <myname> that semi-obscure language... is it called C?
13:08:30 <oerjan> fungot: wait what gender are you again
13:08:30 <fungot> oerjan: it is not a verb" without the problems i see are the use cases for having an assassin cat.
13:08:49 <oerjan> i know a gender isn't a verb, fungot
13:08:49 <fungot> oerjan: ( of course, this a trivial example
13:11:42 <boily> good morning tout le monde!
13:11:56 <myname> we should ban french
13:12:03 <oerjan> bon ettermiddag
13:12:35 <boily> did elliott really ban CT on the chännel?
13:12:43 <boily> fungot: you are a fungot.
13:12:43 <fungot> boily: that woudl be hashsomething, not hashsomething, for latter is array indexes the former is quicker to type
13:12:47 <oerjan> boily: not directly
13:13:52 <oerjan> he banned the letters h, p, m, o and r used consecutively, and without regard for order.
13:14:10 <myname> i don't get it
13:14:12 <boily> ah. makes sense.
13:14:35 <myname> it does?
13:14:43 <boily> myname: those pesky letters that usually appear after words that begin with ana-, hylo-, cata-, zygo-...
13:15:53 <boily> (hm. the electrical wiring in my apartment is of a questionable reliability... every time the AC starts and is not just fanning around, the lights disquietely dim.)
13:16:29 <myname> ah
13:17:33 <boily> also trans-, but those are beasts of a completely different colour.
13:18:06 <int-e> more basic, one has mono- and epi-. also endo-.
13:18:24 <oerjan> y'all keep forgetting iso-
13:18:25 <int-e> those kind of mor phism are not even scary.
13:19:00 <boily> careful int-e, you're toying with unknown evil forces here! (i'a i'a elliott fhtaghn!)
13:19:20 <int-e> we need more fisms!
13:19:39 <oerjan> i assume a space helps since elliott used that himself in the decree
13:20:38 <FireFly> fungot: what's your favourite character, then?
13:20:39 <fungot> FireFly: um... fnord. release notes is what i call an education!! why is everything separated into different modules ( and changed the parser a bit, e.g.
13:20:46 <FireFly> go figure
13:21:02 <oerjan> a character so rare it gets substituted by fnord, makes sense
13:21:02 <boily> is there a U+XXXX FUNGOT FNORD somewhere?
13:21:34 <myname> what about -ine?
13:21:47 <FireFly> fungot's raised on release notes?
13:21:48 <fungot> FireFly: this is confusing me here though, getting pretty damn hard to move from the fnord with which it is restricted to 20k including the run-time, and possibly some other data structure), gets wrapped with the opening parens and do c-m q
13:22:24 <oerjan> myname: in this channel using that will _cause_ unbearable pain hth
13:24:41 <int-e> hmm, what about phorminges...
13:25:08 <int-e> but perhaps elliott is allergic to lyres, too.
13:25:28 <boily> lyres?
13:25:42 <int-e> it's funny that discussing adjoints, and limits (like products, coproducts, pullbacks, pushouts, equalizers, etc.) is perfectly ok by elliott's decree.
13:26:37 <int-e> boily: plural of "lyre", hth
13:27:29 <boily> once again struck by a bout of naïveté. oh well. time to go get something to eat.
13:28:28 <myname> funny how people have problems with ä but are perfectly okay with ï
13:29:44 <boily> “... Afrikaans, Catalan, Dutch, French, Galician, Welsh, Southern Sami, and occasionally English...”
13:36:01 <oerjan> myname: well näiveté is just not right
13:37:33 <myname> oerjan: that wasn't what i meant
13:38:11 <oerjan> OKÄY
13:38:56 <myname> i like that one
13:41:28 <boily> All vowels are born free and equal in diacritics and orthographies...
13:48:00 <int-e> but Ä is two vowels!
13:48:22 <oerjan> silly german
13:48:40 <int-e> It's like Æ, except the e is lower case and on top.
13:52:55 <int-e> nice illustration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Umlaut_Development.png
13:53:35 <int-e> schoen -> sch?n -> schön
13:54:36 <int-e> hah. "schoͤn"
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13:59:20 <oerjan> koͤn_
13:59:39 <oerjan> `unidecode oͤ
13:59:40 <HackEgo> ​[U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0364 COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
14:00:36 <Koen_> oͤrjan
14:12:51 <elliott> oerjan: you forgot t
14:13:41 <oerjan> wat
14:13:49 <elliott> oh, no, I did
14:14:49 * oerjan still has no clue what elliott is talking about
14:15:41 <elliott> the letters
14:16:10 <oerjan> i don't see where there should be a t
14:16:40 <int-e> "näiveté"?
14:16:55 <int-e> I don't know.
14:17:03 <elliott> oh
14:17:05 <elliott> me too.
14:17:13 <oerjan> that's because you're näive
14:17:14 <elliott> idk, I just woke up.
14:17:17 <elliott> don't question me.
14:17:38 <quintopi1> ahoily
14:17:59 <int-e> elliott: why?
14:18:00 <boily> quinthellopi... what the... is that a 1 stapled to your name?
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14:18:29 <boily> aaaah, much better ^^
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14:19:22 <quintopia> i keep missing you
14:19:28 <quintopia> what you doing here on a sat. morning
14:20:59 <elliott> int-e: because I have +o :P
14:22:52 <boily> quintopia: I had one fungotload of a week. Monday night was Douteux, Tuesday night I watched that X-Men movie with friends (I found it passably meh), Wednesday night we played GoT (and probably drank one too many beer), Thursday night I don't quite remember what I did Thursday, and yesterday I got to bed at 20:00.
14:22:52 <fungot> boily: not at all.
14:23:08 <boily> fungot: yes, a metric fungot to be exact.
14:23:08 <fungot> boily: it'll seem like a really odd form of ' foo has no reasonable way to go from here
14:23:58 <boily> (what did I do Thursday night... where was I...)
14:24:04 <boily> ah!
14:24:31 <boily> I was at a friend's grilling stuff on the BBQ, then battling the stupid EFI on his computer.
14:25:55 <boily> quintopia: what did you weekdayed this week?
14:26:25 <elliott> I'm willing to take bribes to license various arrangements of h, p, m, o and r.
14:27:25 <boily> elliott: do you accept Canadian products?
14:27:38 <elliott> what kind of canadian products?
14:29:45 <J_Arcane> os it customary to wind up writing an esolang that you yourself can't follow?
14:29:59 <boily> elliott: you choice of bacon, a mug from Tim, or a can of syrup. (quintopia has exclusive rights on cookies.)
14:30:34 <boily> J_Arcane: if you want to achieve quality, yes.
14:31:26 <quintopia> boily: i've been up way to late every night struggling to stay on top of everything, figuring sleep is the least important thing
14:31:45 <quintopia> and then, when i finally have time to get things done, i waste it
14:32:05 <elliott> boily: I have trouble believing you'd actually ship these things.
14:32:15 <elliott> or that they'd get past customs without fuss if you did.
14:33:35 <J_Arcane> bioly: then it would seem I have achieved it, because I don't seem to be able to make sense of how to do a simple binary search in VIOLET.
14:34:32 <boily> elliott: I managed to ship edibles to quintopia, so why not? don't tell me you live in an unshippableto place?
14:34:49 <boily> quintopia: :(
14:35:04 <elliott> I suspect shipping things Canada<->US is easier than into the EU.
14:37:24 <boily> J_Arcane: if you know how to achieve that in BASIC, then know how to map it over to VIOLET, then it may be possible to do a binary search in the latter.
14:38:35 <elliott> boily: btw, are those mugs in some way special?
14:38:52 <J_Arcane> bioly: I think I just need to change my logic, yes.
14:39:03 <elliott> in fact, are any of those special? they don't sound very canada-specific :P
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14:39:58 <boily> elliott: Tim Horton's. our very own Canadian Cult!
14:44:45 <elliott> well, yes, but... it's just a mug, right?
14:48:21 <int-e> not an amphore
14:50:16 <J_Arcane> There. Got it. https://github.com/jarcane/BlueBox/blob/master/guessthenumber.violet
14:51:33 <int-e> okay, now do the same thing except that the player is allowed to lie exactly once during the game
14:51:53 <int-e> (well. at most once)
14:52:33 <J_Arcane> Hmm. I know how to do a simple lie check (if correct = 0 but upper=lower), but that would be tricky.
15:00:23 <quintopia> boily: i slept until 3pm yesterday, and haven't slept since
15:03:00 <boily> one should invent the Instant Mattress. just add water and bam! a comfy mattress on which you can nap.
15:04:34 <J_Arcane> They kind of have those, but they're expensive and weight hundreds of pounds and take hours to fill. ;)
15:05:09 <quintopia> they also self-inflating mattresses which only require a power source. they weigh several pounds uninflated.
15:05:16 <quintopia> CONVENIENCE
15:07:11 <boily> or go the Chinese way. forget any complex apparatii, and just declare this surface to be sleepable.
15:07:41 <quintopia> my favorite solution is the hammock
15:07:44 <quintopia> sooooo comfy
15:07:47 <J_Arcane> quintopia
15:07:53 <quintopia> and weighs nothing
15:07:58 <J_Arcane> i lived with an air mattress for sometime.
15:08:09 <J_Arcane> damn thing started leaking almost from the day I bought it.
15:09:30 <quintopia> true
15:09:33 <quintopia> they do that
15:09:46 <quintopia> hence using the self-inflating one
15:10:11 <quintopia> if you wake up in the middle of the night half-sunk to the floor, just switch it on for a minute, and bam, back to normal
15:26:54 <quintopia> i need a pizza
15:27:46 <elliott> me too
15:28:14 <quintopia> and a modafinil or suchlike zzzzzzz
15:29:09 <elliott> modafinil pizza!
15:29:12 <quintopia> yes please
15:29:22 <elliott> modafinil makes me feel a little weirdly queasy
15:29:55 <elliott> maybe cause I weigh nothing so I get too much of it in my bloodstream
15:30:57 <quintopia> i don't know how it makes me feel. maybe one day i will know. i doubt it would be noticeable because i weigh plenty
15:30:57 <boily> I just checked the The File. I have your weight listed as “(3 ?)”. care to explain?
15:31:14 <Melvar> Is that the one of which smaller amounts work better?
15:32:39 <elliott> quintopia: it's not as exciting a nootropic as people make it out to be. it just makes you more awake
15:32:55 <quintopia> that's all i want to be
15:33:19 <quintopia> i want to occasionally be able to correct my sleep schedule without my work suffering
15:37:14 <elliott> well I mean it's not really that it makes you more awake it just makes you feel like you need to sleep less. you're still about as tired but with more focus
15:39:16 <quintopia> so i won't spend all day wishing i was in bed and struggling to keep my eyes open?
15:39:19 <quintopia> great
15:39:21 <quintopia> bring it on
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15:47:47 <nooodl> wow python's .format can do this: '{:0{}x}'.format(255,6) == '0000ff'
15:48:31 <elliott> quintopia: you know you can just buy it online right
15:48:49 <nooodl> "A format_spec field can also include nested replacement fields within it. These nested replacement fields can contain only a field name; conversion flags and format specifications are not allowed. The replacement fields within the format_spec are substituted before the format_spec string is interpreted. This allows the formatting of a value to be dynamically specified."
15:48:58 <elliott> at least, within the US
15:51:46 <quintopia> elliott: it's on my to-do list
15:52:00 <quintopia> or as i like to call it
15:52:09 <quintopia> "the list of things that may happen someday"
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15:58:14 * elliott shrug
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17:11:22 <quintopia> i got pizza
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17:16:54 <ion> http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/07/24/the-sims-2-free-ultimate-edition/
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17:29:13 <elliott> quintopia: jealous
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18:52:39 <fizzie> elliott: It probably won't help you sleep that much better, but I've now set up an automated esolangs.org backup (incl. a mysqldump), and also a thing to log the server network traffic, so that (after a month) I can have some sort of idea how much bandwidth it takes. (Extrapolating from 24 hours, 20 GiB/month.)
18:55:32 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
18:55:44 <zzo38> OK, perhaps that can help.
18:56:54 <elliott> fizzie: bandwidth for the wiki or the backups?
18:57:12 <elliott> mostly esolangs.org is still really slow even though it works :P
19:01:24 <Vorpal> This might be old news to some, but I just found out google are running SPDY over UDP now (called QUIC). Interesting idea. But I can imagine all sorts of issues with NAT and proxies doing that hm
19:06:59 <fizzie> Bandwidth for everything, I didn't want to bother being more specific. So it will also include e.g. HackEgo.
19:08:22 <elliott> fizzie: I used way less than 20 gigabytes a month on linode, I think...
19:10:53 <fizzie> Possibly I can look a little bit closer on what it's made of. But 20 gigabytes is not terribly much.
19:11:24 <fizzie> I made the backups happen weekly, and it shouldn't account to all that much.
19:12:29 <fizzie> The gzip'd mysqldump is 66 megs, and the rsync probably doesn't take very many bytes.
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19:37:47 <Vorpal> elliott, is linnode good?
19:37:57 <elliott> it's fine
19:37:57 <Vorpal> I have been thinking about getting a VPS
19:38:11 <elliott> linode, digitalocean, prgmr, it's all fine
19:38:18 <Vorpal> I want a decent one that isn't massively expensive either
19:38:26 <Vorpal> Which is probably a case of "pick one"
19:38:28 <Vorpal> But still
19:39:46 <elliott> those choices are all affordable and decent
19:39:52 <Vorpal> elliott, hm they are all "pick a package" rather than "pick how much you need of each component" though
19:39:59 <elliott> yes
19:40:26 <Vorpal> I wonder why, because I need much more storage than CPU or memory
19:40:30 <elliott> the pricing is simple and fine. you can go for tilaa.com or whatever if you want to customise more but it'll probably correspondingly cost more.
19:40:54 <Vorpal> tilaa seemed quite reasonably priced when I checked it
19:41:14 <Vorpal> A bit too reasonably priced, which made me wonder what the catch is
19:41:22 <elliott> VPSes are cheap
19:41:28 <elliott> if you already have a provider in mind why ask me though?
19:41:47 <Vorpal> no I don't. I have looked at a few, but I'm indecisive
19:41:59 <Vorpal> That is why I'm asking you
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19:43:01 <elliott> 27 euros per month for 2 gig ram / 2x 2.4ghz / 40 gb ssd storage on tila. way more expensive than linode at under 15 euros a month for same ram, same cores (but idk about the clockspeed), 48 gb ssd
19:43:16 <elliott> though linode has a 3 tb transfer limit on that
19:43:28 <elliott> but still tilaa is a lot more expensive for comparable stuff
19:43:49 <Vorpal> Oh right, linnode uses USD, that is why
19:43:59 <Vorpal> XD
19:44:08 <elliott> I've made that mistake too
19:44:17 <elliott> thinking tilaa's prices were really cheap because I assumed they were in USD
19:44:23 <Vorpal> Yeah
19:45:01 <elliott> if you're happy with a mechanical disk then tilaa is only about a euro more than linode for that, but then the plans aren't comparable, so
19:45:13 <Vorpal> elliott, I basically need say 1-2 GB RAM, 1-2 cores and quite a bit of storage.
19:46:11 <elliott> but then a 320 gb mechanical disk with that is only 27.40 eur/month for tilaa, for linode you have to go up to a $160/mo plan to get that much storage (though it's more, and SSD)
19:46:17 <elliott> so yeah if you want lots of storage a customisable thing is reasonable
19:46:28 <Vorpal> Tilaa has unlimited transfer, which is nice, but linnode and digitalocean have more than enough transfer per month.
19:46:48 <elliott> transfer doesn't really matter unless you're using it as a seedbox or something...
19:46:49 <Vorpal> prgrm is cutting it a bit close
19:46:57 <elliott> I think linode lets you add storage separately
19:47:00 <elliott> idk the costs for that
19:47:02 <Vorpal> Well that is nice
19:47:09 <elliott> not certain either
19:47:22 <Vorpal> Hm should be googable
19:49:03 <Vorpal> elliott, I'm basically planning mail server + backup. Probably a simple web server too (because why not), but I don't expect much traffic. You really don't need massive CPU or RAM for such a use case. But you need a lot of disk for backup
19:49:34 <Vorpal> But maybe looking at some amazon storage cloud thingy would be better then. Not sure
19:50:37 <elliott> I wouldn't trust VPS storage for backup.
19:51:06 <elliott> like, you should back up your VPS. stuff is there for volatility or convenience reasons.
19:51:11 <Vorpal> Hm
19:51:36 <elliott> so I'd just get a reasonably priced VPS and back up your mail and other stuff through whatever (tarsnap, maybe your VPS provider's backup offering if they have one...)
19:51:40 <Vorpal> Well to where? I need cloud based backup. tarsnap next?
19:51:57 <Vorpal> Hm
19:53:07 <Vorpal> Well, tarsnap would end up expensive given the backup sizes I have (I estimated from my current rdiff backups)
19:53:22 <Vorpal> I guess encrypted files on dropbox or similar would be another option
19:53:27 <Vorpal> I wonder what that works out as
19:53:29 <elliott> tarsnap's deduplication reduces prices a lot compared to what you might think, but sure. there are flat-rate providers and stuff
19:53:49 <elliott> long-term archival storage has different priorities to a VPS anyway. you don't need instant access to it, you want it encrypted (and don't need the encryption keys in memory)...
19:53:58 <Vorpal> Indeed
19:54:28 <elliott> you can also just do non-cloud backup.
19:54:33 <elliott> with, like, actual physical objects.
19:55:11 <Vorpal> 100 GB Dropbox is 8.25 / month, Tarsnap is 25 USD / month for that (plus transfer).
19:55:21 <Vorpal> elliott, I do that, but what if there is a fire?
19:56:02 <elliott> then you have other problems. but you can probably find somewhere to store a redundant copy. Or get Iron Mountain to put it in a cave somewhere.
19:56:09 <Vorpal> elliott, I can't really put my disk in a bank safe after every backup. That is way to inconvenient as it would involve driving to the city (20 km each way)
19:56:29 <elliott> remember the deduplication effects when estimating tarsnap costs
19:56:43 <elliott> Vorpal: oh come on, the risk of a fire that destroys your disks is low enough that you can do it every N backups instead :p
19:56:52 <Vorpal> Sure
19:57:37 <elliott> there is amazon glacier
19:57:40 <elliott> it is very cheap and very slow
19:57:49 <elliott> and nobody knows how it work
19:57:50 <elliott> s
19:58:01 <Vorpal> That sounds worrying
19:58:28 <Vorpal> Hm 3-5 hours... So probably tape or such?
19:58:30 <elliott> it's either tape. or blu-rays. or something.
19:58:48 <elliott> http://storagemojo.com/2014/04/25/amazons-glacier-secret-bdxl/ thinks the latter, but IIRC ex-amazon employees have hinted that it's tape?
19:59:19 <Vorpal> Well it makes more sense as tape IMO. Unless you use rewritable blurays I guess
20:00:46 <elliott> facebook store tons of things on blu-ray
20:00:54 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/why-facebook-thinks-blu-ray-discs-are-perfect-for-the-data-center/
20:01:03 <elliott> http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/01/facebook-uses-10000-blu-ray-discs-to-create-petabytes-of-cold-storage/
20:01:48 <Vorpal> Huh
20:02:16 <Vorpal> elliott, I wonder how that will work with the "remove all my account and every trace of it" stuff that is going on currently
20:02:37 <elliott> you can throw away blu-rays.
20:03:02 <elliott> I don't think you're expected to delete accounts from backups though...
20:03:08 <Vorpal> Hm
20:03:30 <Vorpal> Well yeah you can throw away blu-rays, but you would have to move all the other accounts on it elsewhere
20:03:36 <Vorpal> And perhaps you are right
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20:05:29 <elliott> copy-on-write is nothing new :P
20:06:15 <Vorpal> Well yeah, as long as you don't need to delete accounts from backups too. Depends on what the EU law makers decides at this point I guess
20:07:25 <elliott> deleting links from search engine indices isn't anything like obliterating accounts.
20:07:39 <elliott> google are even still allowed to link to the pages, just not in conjunction with the search terms.
20:07:44 <elliott> in fact it's /more/ data stored, not less
20:07:49 <Vorpal> Hm
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20:15:34 <elliott> Vorpal: you could even purchase your own tape and do tape archives.
20:15:44 <elliott> probably not economical for low amounts of data though.
20:15:45 <Vorpal> Heh
20:16:31 <Vorpal> elliott, yeah it is basically 1 TB or so across all my systems (for a full backup, add small incremental ones of a couple of GB on top of that)
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20:30:19 <Vorpal> .link is a TLD? How strange, wikipedia has no info on it
20:30:42 <elliott> Wikipedia probably can't keep up with gTLDs these days.
20:30:48 <Vorpal> Hah
20:30:55 <elliott> I'm serious.
20:30:58 <elliott> there's tons and tons.
20:32:22 <Vorpal> True
20:32:51 <Vorpal> Just looking at gandi for a available domain name, and .link showed up in that list
20:33:06 <Vorpal> I could go for .xxx XD
20:33:33 <Vorpal> Hm I found a nice .se one
20:33:55 <elliott> you should name it after something you like
20:33:58 <elliott> like, goats maybe
20:34:07 <Vorpal> XD
20:34:20 <Vorpal> Well I tried my family name, but good luck with that.
20:34:28 <Vorpal> At least not for anything that I want
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20:36:05 <int-e> http://newgtlds.icann.org/en/program-status/delegated-strings
20:36:47 <int-e> I wonder whether there is a list linking those to registrants
20:36:51 <Vorpal> Ouch
20:38:43 <zzo38> Do you want a domain name consisting entirely of "x" and a few dots?
20:38:59 <zzo38> HOPE X has such a domain name.
20:39:15 <int-e> xxx is an existing TLD, of course
20:39:18 <elliott> norlander.cancerresearch
20:40:12 <Vorpal> XD
20:40:56 <int-e> an sTLD, hmm.
20:41:02 <int-e> weird terminology.
20:41:03 <Vorpal> Well, getting this domain for several years is cheaper
20:41:16 <Vorpal> Then the question is, will I actually want it in 8 years from now?
20:41:57 <elliott> domains do not cost enough for it to be worth caring about that.
20:42:16 <Vorpal> elliott, well that depends on the TLD and the domain. I expect some are quite expensive
20:42:38 <Vorpal> .ph is 48 EUR for 1 year for example, .se is 16 EUR for 1 year. For the same domain name here
20:42:51 <Vorpal> .rocks is 121 EUR
20:42:57 <Vorpal> What the hell is .rocks anyway
20:43:11 <elliott> that's 10 euros a month for .rock
20:43:24 <elliott> *rocks
20:43:24 <Vorpal> Oh it is "landrush" which is apperently pre-ordering
20:43:25 <elliott> admittedly, a discount might be reasonable at that point
20:43:27 <elliott> but you don't want .rocks
20:43:28 <Vorpal> So I guess that explains it
20:43:28 <elliott> oh, landrush.
20:43:42 <Vorpal> Still .ph is quite expensive
20:43:42 <elliott> btw, 16 eur? I suspect .se is less expensive from another registrar.
20:44:03 <Vorpal> elliott, hm maybe, what other registrar is good then?
20:44:15 <Vorpal> I want a good registrar with DNSSEC
20:45:08 <elliott> I don't know. easyDNS, namecheap, name.com, dynadot. there's tons
20:45:23 <Vorpal> Are they good though?
20:45:57 <elliott> no, I was listing bad registrars. what do you think?
20:46:20 <elliott> ok, easyDNS is actually more expensive than 16 eur, heh.
20:46:42 <elliott> they're probably one of the most competent registrars though
20:46:47 <Vorpal> godaddy is slightly cheaper, but I heard so much bad about them
20:47:05 <Vorpal> About 14 EUR at godaddy
20:47:18 <elliott> don't buy from godaddy.
20:47:27 <int-e> HIV as a TLD, hmm.
20:47:39 <Vorpal> elliott, I know, I just wanted to check what they would charge for some random .se
20:48:05 <Vorpal> name.com is 24 EUR
20:48:37 <Vorpal> sorry, 24 USD
20:48:40 <int-e> http://my.personal.website/home/page.html
20:48:56 <Vorpal> So still more expensive
20:48:56 <int-e> (the TLD exists)
20:49:28 <Vorpal> dynadot doesn't do .se it seems
20:49:41 <elliott> ".website is the first true generic domain launched in the new era of the internet." come on, try harder. you want .internet for true genericity
20:50:04 <elliott> or, I guess you don't necessarily need to point a domain you've registered at something accessible on the internet?
20:50:17 <elliott> so .domainname.
20:50:18 <zzo38> Yes, that would be true, although both .internet and .website are too long.
20:50:20 <int-e> Vorpal: how about .eu
20:50:30 <zzo38> If it isn't accessible on the internet, you don't need a TLD.
20:50:30 <elliott> (there's .domains, but...)
20:50:38 <elliott> zzo38: but you still could.
20:50:50 <Vorpal> int-e, in use
20:51:01 <elliott> I mean, maybe some RFC tells you to SHOULD NOT have a domain with only records pointing to stuff off the internet, but.
20:51:12 <zzo38> Since, you can then use local addresses instead, if you are not using internet.
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20:52:05 <zzo38> Maybe for generic you should instead use ".gen" for generic?
20:52:44 <Vorpal> Wow. .nu is quite expensive ("nu" means "now" in Swedish, so you end up seeing it quite often, like .to for English speaking sites)
20:54:32 <int-e> oh, there's .foo and .bar (the latter probably went together with .pub though)
20:54:35 <zzo38> But I think more pseudo-TLDs should be needed, such as .ipv4 to tell it always use IPv4 even if IPv6 is available, and .ipv6 to create a local IPv4 address which connects to a IPv6 so that it is usable in IPv4 only software (as well as IPv4 only operating systems, if .ipv6 is implemented in the router), and .option to set options for the connection.
20:55:12 <Vorpal> elliott, Hm this is weird, 1 and 2 years have the same price per year (16 EUR) then 3-10 all cost 13.6 EUR per year
20:55:34 <elliott> Vorpal: they're probably counting on you to not bother doing division.
20:55:43 <Vorpal> XD
20:55:58 <Vorpal> The only reason to go for more than 3 years would be if you expect prices to go up during that time
20:56:00 <Vorpal> which is possible
20:56:15 <elliott> the volatile domain markets.
20:56:46 <Vorpal> elliott, is it? I don't know
20:56:53 <Vorpal> It would be useful to know if it is
20:56:54 <elliott> no
20:57:20 <zzo38> You should have other pseudo-TLDs too such as .tty and .usb and so on.
20:57:52 <int-e> .zip has been suggested somewhere
20:58:00 <Vorpal> I wonder if it is gandi or the Swedish country registrar doing that stupid pricing model...
20:58:31 * Vorpal looks at some of the other options...
20:59:10 <Vorpal> .link and .ninja: No discount at all. .fr doesn't allow anything but 1 year even
20:59:40 <Vorpal> Hm seems most of those that allow several years don't do discounts
21:01:19 <zzo38> I don't like (non-pseudo) TLDs for type of service, since that is what subdomains and port numbers are for, therefore ".website" is no good.
21:02:14 <zzo38> Do you think my ideas are better than the existing confusions?
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21:02:35 <int-e> I agree, .website is awful.
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21:03:06 <int-e> I brought up .hiv because I imagine that it would be hard to market for personal use.
21:05:34 <int-e> But it belongs to an organisation called "dotHIV" and they write: "The new domain ending .hiv will bring new momentum to the fight against AIDS."
21:08:38 <myname> .zip is an awesome TLD for all these virus sites
21:13:05 <quintopia> .something
21:13:12 <int-e> they also have about 2000 pending applications for gTLDs, .zip is one of them
21:14:29 <zzo38> With such pseudo-TLDs to make up such things as telnet://778-555-1212.modem.tty/ and telnet://com2.tty/ and 9p://device1.usb/ and so on.
21:15:57 <zzo38> Since if you are using operating system which uses "Peripheral Device Over Ethernet" and you want to use USB ports in the computer, then you would need a .usb pseudo-TLD for this purpose.
21:16:16 <zzo38> Since they are not connected to the ethernet port!
21:17:35 <int-e> you can use different DNS record types. there are quite a few already: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DNS_record_types
21:17:42 <int-e> no need for a pseudo TLD
21:21:02 <zzo38> I don't see how using different DNS record types would help here.
21:21:23 <Vorpal> So many contracts to read through, gah
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21:30:48 <Vorpal> There we go
21:31:14 <Vorpal> elliott, I now own vorpal.se. Time to decide on a VPS
21:31:33 <elliott> vorpalse.cx
21:32:25 <Vorpal> hah
21:33:37 <Vorpal> Hm, where is the DNS zone editor in this web GUI, since it is currently using gandi for the primary DNS server
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21:36:25 <Vorpal> Aha, found it
21:36:36 <Vorpal> But that is quite a confusing interface
21:37:18 <Vorpal> Aha
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21:48:59 <Vorpal> <int-e> But it belongs to an organisation called "dotHIV" and they write: "The new domain ending .hiv will bring new momentum to the fight against AIDS." <-- doubtful that it will have any effect at all
21:54:46 <Vorpal> The output of the dig command is quite obtuse
21:54:59 <Vorpal> I can't tell if it was a success or failure
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22:13:37 <fizzie> Tilaa's SSD premium is/was quite a lot, I think.
22:13:49 <fizzie> (I've been looking at the backscroll.)
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22:16:22 <fizzie> And it's a failure if it's missing an "ANSWER SECTION".
22:16:44 <fizzie> (Also the 'status:' field, but that's quite well-hidden in the headers.)
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22:21:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, what authoritative dns server do you recommend?
22:22:35 <fizzie> I don't have a recommendation, but personally I've been sticking with BIND.
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22:44:25 <Vorpal> Hm
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22:44:30 <Vorpal> Gah the crickets are so loud
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22:50:18 <TieSoul-mobile> Hi
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23:01:23 <zzo38> Hi, what do you want, please?
23:05:20 <fizzie> DNSSEC with BIND can be slightly obscure.
23:06:18 <fizzie> Though the 9.9 series adds inline signing.
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23:16:58 <myname> so, i want to make json stuff over tcp with haskell. google said, i might use aeson. now i am in bytestring hell
23:21:19 <Taneb> I am not used to this larger monitor
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23:27:36 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large is it?
23:27:45 <Taneb> 24 inches I think
23:27:53 <Vorpal> I'm using one 24" and one 22" monitor atm
23:27:59 <Vorpal> Both 16:10
23:28:34 <Vorpal> At work I have two 24" plus the built in 15" in the laptop in use at the same time
23:28:54 <Vorpal> Taneb, how large monitors are you used to then?
23:29:03 <Taneb> 18 inch I think
23:29:05 <Vorpal> Since I find 24" a quite nice size
23:29:17 <Vorpal> Heh, couldn't live with such a small monitor these days
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