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00:26:42 <Melvar> Anyone for some ridiculous feature abuse?
00:27:23 <newsham> anyone NOT for some ridiculous feature abuse!?@
00:27:31 <Melvar> ( let foo = "bar" in getNamedVar "foo"
00:27:54 <Bike> that's very... perl? weird
00:28:59 <Melvar> It uses a reflected tactic to look for the right thing in the environment. Only statically-known variable name strings will work.
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00:29:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lambda: the Gathering]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40228&oldid=40224 * Oerjan * (+50) unsigned
00:31:04 <Melvar> Took me a day to get it working, too.
00:33:40 <Melvar> But it doesn’t actually break anything, all it does in the end is have the compiler fill in the actual variable in question.
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01:20:29 <oerjan> <oerjan> (my _last_ answer was of course something trivial which just popped up and i couldn't resist because it would put me over 2000) <-- of _course_ this had to ironically end up as my most upvoted SO answer so far...
01:22:40 <oerjan> the newtype Maybe a one
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01:24:13 <oerjan> is that the one you thought was so unclear i shouldn't have answered it?
01:24:48 <shachaf> i never said you shouldn't have answered it
01:25:07 <oerjan> good, good *puts swatter back down*
01:25:23 <shachaf> can you get a balloon to swat me with?
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01:42:54 <oerjan> there's a Gregor in the house. i believe he has a message.
02:33:23 <newsham> blah, think soon i'll have to update my ubuntu LTS
02:34:04 <oerjan> i didn't know mormon were linux based
02:34:22 <oerjan> puns are so bad when you misread a letter
02:37:00 <oerjan> i didn't know minecraft had saints either
02:39:30 <elliott> where did minecraft come from?
02:43:56 <newsham> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws70oI3yMBc
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03:40:00 <Sgeo> So, DotA vs League of Legends is reminding me a bit of NetHack vs some other roguelikes (Crawl and Brogue), in that the former supposedly tends to require more knowledge not immediately present in the UI for effective play
03:41:05 <Bike> so you're saying in dota you can determine the nature of a ring by dropping it down a sink.
03:41:35 <shachaf> Bike: is that a primitive form of caller id
03:41:45 <Bike> if that's a pun i'm not getting it
03:42:08 <Bike> anyway, anyone here play dorfs? i am, swear to god, having trouble understanding how to navigate the help menu
03:42:15 <shachaf> "nature of a ring" [heh heh heh]
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04:15:14 <Sgeo> Bike: I like reading about dorfs
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07:00:17 <Sgeo> It's not possible to have a NUL-terminated UTF-32 string, is it?
07:00:44 <Sgeo> Well, I guess codepoint 0 could terminate. Just NULL-terminated wouldn't work
07:24:16 <fizzie> You could terminate a big-endian UTF-32 string with a single byte, if you liked.
07:24:52 <fizzie> Not a 0, but e.g. ff, since the code points only go up to 0x0010ffff.
07:24:57 <fizzie> It'd be kind of hacky, though.
07:26:14 <b_jonas> Sgeo: yes, codepoint 0 as terminator would be natural
07:26:30 <b_jonas> but it's usually better to use an explicit length (or end pointer)
07:26:42 <b_jonas> it comes with fewer bugs and usually easier code these days
07:27:08 <Sgeo> Wha sort of data structures do word processors use? What about many years ago (e.g. what did Word 1.0 use)?
07:35:46 <fizzie> Ropes are not uncommon in editors, or so I've heard.
07:36:15 <fizzie> I have also gotten the vague impression that whatever's under the hood in LibreOffice is something quite paragraph-oriented.
07:53:34 <shachaf> fizzie: for a good time terminate it with a single byte and put that byte right at the end of a page
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08:42:53 <fizzie> "Why do you have three bytes of padding at the start of your memory block?" "So that I could put the terminating byte right at the end of a page."
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11:06:49 * impomatic_ is tempted to mine CthulhuCoins https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=294383.0
11:08:28 <HackEgo> catcombcoin selfcoin peracoin alboxybeatnikcoin mcnecoin dislacoin negrcoin ctcoin musivecoin braincoin ztendidncoin perfectorcoin d1ffcoin poetercecoin beuvecoin inspooncoin befortlecoin kmancoin 1932coin ortecoin
11:08:37 <boily> ah, the command still exists!
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11:27:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: analog: not found
11:28:01 <HackEgo> part is to thia as squef is to hamplique
11:28:05 <mroman> only took me about half an hour to get it working :D
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12:40:08 <Taneb> I would like some advice!
12:40:43 <Taneb> If a function doesn't pass the fairbairn threshold but the implementation is not obvious, what should I do
12:41:21 <Taneb> Hang on, I'm only using this function once
12:42:12 <Taneb> I guess that's pretty firmly on the "remove" side of things
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14:11:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:TieSoul]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40229&oldid=40163 * TieSoul * (+358) List of languages I've implemented
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14:35:31 <fizzie> Hello from the As-sembly.
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15:01:44 <HackEgo> eight is to upgn as vam is to edney
15:01:57 <mroman> Who made that dictionary?
15:03:05 <fizzie> The Hoover did `words.
15:03:48 <fizzie> That's statistical models for you.
15:04:03 <fizzie> I think it's trigrams.
15:04:46 <fizzie> 'pgn' sounds slightly unlikely, but sometimes the source dicts have abbrevs too.
15:05:42 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
15:06:01 <oerjan> from google, "fairbairn threshold" seems like a haskell/agda community thing
15:06:29 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
15:06:36 <oerjan> um that was in response to Taneb in the logs
15:08:12 <Taneb> oerjan, it's "if a name of a function is about as long as its definition, ask yourself is it really worth having a name?" roughly
15:08:32 <oerjan> i did get the gist of the definition
15:08:42 <oerjan> it just didn't seem like a very widespread term
15:08:59 <Taneb> edwardk, where does the Fairbain threshold come from?
15:09:03 <Taneb> Who was Fairbairn?
15:09:09 <edwardk> it was an early discussion on the libraries mailing list
15:09:16 <edwardk> about naming a simple composition
15:09:29 <edwardk> and he pointed out that it was better to have smaller combinators that folks could put together
15:09:35 <edwardk> than to name all the pairs of combinators
15:09:40 <oerjan> so then, does "fairbairn threshold" cross the fairbairn threshold?
15:09:51 <edwardk> because the latter is a less compositional vocabulary and it drives users to look up the solution in the dictionary
15:10:00 <edwardk> causing you to grow the dictionary further
15:10:38 <edwardk> on the other hand if you have simple compositional higher order functions then you get units of highly reusable functionality and don't cram the namespace full of trivial compositions
15:11:10 <edwardk> anywyas jon fairbairn has been around in the haskell community a long time, maybe 15 years or so, but he's kinda idle these days
15:11:44 <oerjan> so he's responsible for killing equating, basically.
15:11:50 <edwardk> i use his threshold as a sort of litmus test to prevent core library explosion
15:12:05 <edwardk> well, i rather think of it as he's responsible for driving the creation of on
15:12:21 <Taneb> I may have been misusing the threshold slightly
15:12:31 <edwardk> i'm personally okay with the addition of equating if only because it crosses another threshold
15:12:43 <edwardk> the point at which telling people no is taking more time than just adding the fucking thing
15:12:56 <edwardk> i've been calling that the co-"Fairbairn" threshold ;)
15:13:17 <edwardk> if the whole point of the former was to save people time, then there is a point at which we're in net productivity loss the other way too ;)
15:14:09 <edwardk> i tend to re-evaluate my stance on something when it gets reinvented over and over every few months by different people
15:14:26 <edwardk> because obviously there is something there -- a need we arent satisfying
15:14:37 <edwardk> we're not at a local optimum, something wants to pull us along a gradient
15:15:57 <Melvar> Where did “co-” come from in the first place?
15:16:16 <elliott> lens does not obey the afirbairn threshold :)
15:16:33 <oerjan> i was going to mention lens
15:16:55 <elliott> to be fair, it does mostly obey it, it's just that it has to macro-expand the definition of the compositional language that is its operators.
15:17:02 <edwardk> lens is all about building a compositional vocabulary -- it just chose a bigger grain size
15:17:20 <edwardk> and morphology has structure to it
15:17:24 <Taneb> elliott, most of the operators are my fault
15:17:28 <edwardk> in a way that most of these one off things don't
15:17:41 <edwardk> yeah i blame taneb for everything
15:17:46 <Taneb> Because I wanted <<+~ for a thing and I got slightly carried away
15:17:54 <elliott> is morphology what we're calling optics now?
15:17:55 <oerjan> well the other libraries have some of that too, like _ M A
15:18:31 <edwardk> elliott: nah, just meaning the structure inside the name of a thing. the fact that our naming conventions agglutinate like prefixes and suffixes, etc.
15:18:38 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting (First a) s a -> m (Maybe a)
15:18:42 <lambdabot> MonadReader s m => Getting (First a) s a -> m (Maybe a)
15:18:44 <elliott> see, morphology kinda works as a name for optics.
15:19:16 <edwardk> i've been spending a lot of time with lenses in a more general categorical setting
15:19:29 <edwardk> isos on natural transformations are pretty awesome
15:19:39 <edwardk> emember all the quantified lens stuff we couldn't say?
15:20:10 <edwardk> take plated, now go write something that walks a syntax tree and takes statements to statements, expressions to expressions
15:20:33 <elliott> let's not and say I did :)
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16:18:58 <mroman> wait. so words doesn't use a dictionary?
16:20:29 <quintopia> it would make sense to use a language model kind of how fungot does right?
16:20:30 <fungot> quintopia: that's nice. you mean to simply pass the arguments to the call to call/ cc isn't a time machine module that returns the list?
16:21:40 <mroman> It'd be much easier for german
16:21:45 <mroman> just give a base dictionary
16:21:56 <mroman> and then mix words together to construct compound words
16:22:02 <fizzie> It does exactly what fungot does.
16:22:02 <fungot> fizzie: that's what i used
16:22:16 <fizzie> Except in characters and not words.
16:22:22 <mroman> Flaschenhundsammelbeckenreinigungsfachmann
16:22:40 <fizzie> Also some minor other differences.
16:23:24 <mroman> bottle dog collector tub cleaning specialist
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16:47:29 <TieSoul> Dutch also does that. Autobandenwieldopjesverzamelaarsbeurskaartjes is car tyre valve collectors' exchange tickets.
16:53:24 <fizzie> Finnish, unsurprisingly.
16:53:56 <fizzie> Though also with inflection, up to some degree.
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17:29:42 <HackEgo> usur atlan pxcelief oling eductor prainer moniah cochoppa villa poul
17:30:04 <HackEgo> cat: words: No such file or directory
17:30:08 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #wa
17:30:17 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/words
17:30:37 <mroman> how can you add such large files?
17:30:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
17:32:46 <fizzie> The `fetch has been occasionally broken.
17:33:23 <fizzie> Don't know about current state.
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17:36:56 <HackEgo> ausgesches quotenbetrieb großes vivo ungspolitätisch tantermorperan rechnungsplani öylen ficingabe frei
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17:38:08 <HackEgo> hanienspekt extaufklärung vötigesundspitz hangendestielte reierudenkorreprac capitzers portelleticschwulfarbeschutz schenkvorrieder unbedürfnisinummis dnl
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17:39:09 <fizzie> `run words --german --finnish 10 # one of its best features
17:39:11 <HackEgo> antabunktiv reuzstr geburyholh rach hefessalle sämmänä geograahekser sachtetesi terik ethalustel
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17:43:21 <Melvar> `words --german-medical 10
17:43:22 <HackEgo> bewegungen adrezifisch glycetamin hyperidenomenfall pioidtumphase resierteropium expresensitiere anspuffiziös hyperationen explageburs
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17:47:21 <HackEgo> Brazilian \ Bulgarian \ CanadianEnglishInsane \ Catalan \ Eng1M \ EngAll \ EngFiction \ EngGb \ EngUs \ Esolangs \ Finnish \ French \ Gaelic \ German \ GermanMedical \ Hebrew \ Irish \ Italian \ Manx \ Norwegian \ Ogerman \ Polish \ Portuguese \ Russian \ Spanish \ Swedish
17:50:34 <mroman> you can't just chain german nouns though
17:50:46 <mroman> there's the -s- that sometimes must be squished in
17:50:56 <mroman> although the -s- is regional
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17:58:43 <Melvar> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinderkennzeichnungs-_und_Rindfleischetikettierungs%C3%BCberwachungsaufgaben%C3%BCbertragungsgesetz
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18:07:46 <mroman> I guess these are actually just case endings
18:07:47 <Melvar> Well, that’s strictly a plural -n.
18:08:22 <Melvar> In “Sonnenstrahl” however, the -n is historical genitive IIRC.
18:08:24 <mroman> it's the steuer of the verrechnung
18:08:41 <mroman> "Verrechnungs Steuer" really means the Steuer of the Verrechnung
18:09:22 <Melvar> No, “Verrechnung” is its own genitive form, nowadays anyway.
18:09:58 <mroman> Des Verrechnung Steuer sounds weird
18:10:32 <Melvar> “der Verrechnung” – -ung nouns are feminine.
18:11:24 <mroman> genitive for feminine nouns sounds weird
18:11:47 <quintopia> help i'm trying to find the original source of the comic graph of "physics knowledge vs. how much sense the universe makes". i'm pretty sure it's SMBC, or if not that, then xkcd, but I can't find it
18:11:54 <Melvar> Using the genitive that way is rare in the first place.
18:12:42 <mroman> I was born without a genitive :)
18:12:59 <mroman> (swiss dialects generally lack genitive)
18:13:27 <mroman> Der Koffer der Frau is a perfect sentence though
18:13:33 <Melvar> They use the dative instead, no?
18:13:46 <mroman> in swiss german you'd say "Der Koffer von der Frau"
18:14:49 <mroman> Which means you cant answer to question like "Welches Auto" with just "Papas"
18:15:00 <mroman> you have to say "dem Papa seines"
18:15:38 <mroman> or "em papi siis" to put it into real swiss german ;)
18:16:18 <mroman> german is lacking a neutral "unbestimmter Artikel" though
18:16:28 <mroman> ein/eine is all you guys have ;)
18:17:13 <mroman> and I've heard your definition of "obwohl" is broken, too.
18:17:22 <Melvar> “indefinite article” is the English term.
18:17:51 <Melvar> And what besides ein/eine/ein would we have? And what would you say “obwohl” means?
18:17:58 <mroman> "Obwohl ich zur Bank ging, war sie geschlossen."
18:18:25 <mroman> somebody said, this wouldn't imply that the speaker expects the bank to open just for him
18:18:37 <Melvar> That’s what it sounds like to me.
18:19:15 <mroman> to me it's sounds like the speaker expects the bank to open for him
18:19:24 <mroman> "Ich ging zur Bank, obwohl sie geschlossen war"
18:19:30 <mroman> is - to him - the same thing
18:19:44 <mroman> to me it implies that you knew that it was closed
18:19:48 <mroman> but you chose to go anyway
18:22:01 <Melvar> So, I don’t know about your informant, but I would consider the first example to imply that the speaker expects the bank to be open just because he went there.
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18:44:10 <mroman> that's what I told him :)
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18:57:07 <Vorpal> So... My phone randomly rebooted and then went into a boot loop (in the boot loader, didn't even get to the kernel logo). Had to remove the battery and put it back in to fix that. How strange
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19:04:35 <int-e> It seems more likely that the speaker has trouble with the subtleties of the German language.
19:05:54 <int-e> (This was my first reaction, "this sounds off, what is the intended meaning likely to be?")
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19:38:02 <TieSoul> you know what, I'm going to make a stack-based arbitrary-dimension language, because there seems to be a lack of that (with the exception of BeQunge)
19:38:19 <TieSoul> And I just really enjoy multi-dimensional languages
19:45:19 <quintopia> it's easy enough to do computation in many dimensions
19:45:49 <TieSoul> that will be done by putting the 2,3,4,5...-dimensional coordinates before the line
19:49:28 <fizzie> In the time-honored Assembly tradition, nothing is working right here.
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19:51:50 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/tcsF1mXcInau1cr5ftKZ/ < what I'm planning for the language. Feedback?
19:55:17 <TieSoul> oh, I forgot, new lines are denoted by ascii character 10
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20:03:57 <TieSoul> What don't you understand?
20:09:38 <TieSoul> do you mean the dimension thing?
20:09:45 <HackEgo> wabetcoin jrowncoin aracketlancoin feracoin brbcoin smdcoin bubcoin bfjousiccoin devebantumbraidicoin producoin cicsends.jscoin gorycoin kayarcoin mkbcoin indecoin sumercoin grotorcoin minuongshawcoin self-brokeryedumberckcoin bitcoin
20:10:20 <TieSoul> if you want a 3-dimensional program, and the first line is on 3D coordinate 1, you can do
20:11:36 <TieSoul> then when you make another line, it will be on coords 1,1 if you don't specify anything
20:11:43 <int-e> you've described a syntax, but what are the semantics?
20:11:52 <TieSoul> http://bpaste.net/show/tcsF1mXcInau1cr5ftKZ/
20:12:04 <int-e> that's what I've read
20:12:12 <TieSoul> then I clearly don't know what semantics means
20:12:42 <int-e> what happens when the program is executed?
20:13:10 <TieSoul> well, I haven't gotten that far yet
20:13:30 <TieSoul> but there'll an IP that moves along with a delta
20:13:58 <TieSoul> and there'll be instructions that the IP executes, and they can change the delta to any multi-dimensional vector
20:14:15 <TieSoul> that's about as far as I've got
20:15:05 <TieSoul> (as long as that multi-dimensional vector fits within the amount of dimensions of the program
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20:16:56 <TieSoul-mobile> If you said anything after my last message I didn't see it :P
20:17:33 <int-e> TieSoul-mobile: you could check the logs, but nothing was said in the meantime
20:19:54 <quintopia> i don't really see the benefit of all those dimensions
20:20:39 <quintopia> we can avoid intersection of code lines with only 3 dimensions
20:20:53 <quintopia> TieSoul-mobile: to create the smallest compiler possible
20:22:39 <quintopia> ok i'll give you five bfjousicoin if you succeed
20:24:29 <HackEgo> razycoin malcoin belcoin colliiecoin ted!coin pointercacoin bestfrocercoin cloorthcoin l00coin phoniccoin .yacuaticoin spilecoin udacoin disilacoin uncitocoin dracoin capuicoin moustcoin oischemcoin audinava2coin
20:24:59 <int-e> `` printf "%u" $((~0))
20:25:35 <int-e> `` printf "%d" $((~0)) # alas...
20:26:30 <int-e> I suggested "coercoin" a while ago but nobody reacted.
20:33:07 <myname> inrecommend unciteocoin for wikipedia sponsoring
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21:35:37 <FreeFull> It would be fun if the coin thing was fed by markov chains and logs from here
21:36:51 <int-e> fungot: give us a coin, please
21:36:51 <fungot> int-e: it's a lot of pictures of fnord and strcat. so what is a ' cell tracker' for 9110, btw.
21:37:10 <int-e> not the f-word! please! have mercy!
21:52:17 <fungot> shachaf: something stinks here. the lady replied... " but i had noticable slow down when conducting sisc upgrade test
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21:57:17 <ais523_> finally, I have success in the "get Windows to work again" direction
21:57:43 <ais523_> I'm not sure if I'm going to go beyond this and actually attempt to install Visual Studio
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22:01:38 <ais523_> it was quite the adventure, I might write a blog post about it
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22:17:52 <oerjan> <quintopia> help i'm trying to find the original source of the comic graph of "physics knowledge vs. how much sense the universe makes". i'm pretty sure it's SMBC, or if not that, then xkcd, but I can't find it <-- well googling your term doesn't give me any _copy_ of the graph either.
22:18:10 <oerjan> which makes it a little hard to get started.
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22:20:15 <ais523_> there were numerous problems
22:20:26 <ais523_> and I only just resolved the last one (I was having the same problem as the last comment here: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windowsserver/en-US/6119d4c0-c3c0-40bf-9c3e-46b46915e738/service-not-start-access-denied-software-protection-event-logs?forum=winservergen)
22:21:15 <ais523_> Herman Bonnie, I don't know who you are, but thanks for the advice, and thanks for letting me know about procmon
22:21:34 <ais523_> for several hours, I was thinking "if only I had a Windows version of strace, this would be easy to fix"
22:21:55 <ais523_> and procmon has a subset of strace's abilities, but fortunately, all the functionality I needed was in that subset
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22:26:59 <quintopia> oerjan: i can find a link to a copy hold on
22:27:39 <quintopia> (however, note that this will not contain any references to the original source, so it will still be hard to get started)
22:30:01 <oerjan> although with some luck maybe it'll jog my memory
22:31:32 <quintopia> http://www.quora.com/Religion/How-does-one-believe-in-so-called-God-when-Science-proves-everything
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22:33:07 <oerjan> why are you linking to that, also i can only read the first answer
22:34:17 <quintopia> http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dec081428190913d063e3ef0a62eb191?convert_to_webp=true
22:35:40 <oerjan> well that allowed me to google the first phrase properly
22:36:19 <oerjan> giving this, which credits zach weiner (of smbc) https://twitter.com/sndrclsn/status/486748250071126016
22:36:45 <quintopia> yes i was pretty sure that's where i saw it thanks
22:37:54 <oerjan> the reddit link points me on to the right comic http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2376 (red button)
22:43:09 <quintopia> damn smbc site doesn't say what license these are published on the main front page :(
22:46:39 <oerjan> in a shocking development, dmm's latest comic, planet of hats, isn't open licensed either
22:47:23 <oerjan> hm i guess darths & droids isn't either
22:47:41 <oerjan> but all the others that i remember
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23:13:00 <ais523_> is some sort of proxy involved?
23:13:07 <ais523_> compare http and https, see if one is more reliable than the other
23:13:13 <ais523_> (either way round would be interesting)
23:21:25 <oerjan> there are approximately none
23:21:48 <ais523_> quintopia: the "compare http and https" was meant as an attempt to detect one
23:22:15 <ais523_> you might also want to try looking at https certificates to see if they're being replaced
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23:25:47 <oerjan> it's funny how my favorite puzzles from simon tatham's have changed after i got a new laptop - solely because the new touchpad is more awkward for frequent precision clicks
23:27:02 <oerjan> i used to do lightup for a _long_ time, but now i get annoyed after a couple tries.
23:27:39 <oerjan> some of the awkwardness might be because i'm now actually keeping it in my lap.
23:28:36 <oerjan> so i've sort of changed to doing more of the puzzle that have good keyboard shortcuts.
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23:43:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RAGE]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=40230 * 173.240.241.83 * (+21) Redirected page to [[RAGE!!!]]
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