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05:57:56 <Sgeo> Could it be? A themed language with few tokens that isn't a BF derivative?
06:09:01 <J_Arcane> last night I was lying in bed pondering an octal assembly/ML languag.e
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06:12:26 <newsham> you mean that the structure would be 3-bit aligned?
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06:28:36 <J_Arcane> newsham: Yeah. 3-bits for the instruction would give you precisely 8 instructions (7 usable), then another multiple of 3 for the address and data.
06:30:11 <J_Arcane> I snuck some octal coded messages in my last game project, and last night I was playing with a PDP-8 and some ideas for a "game" about poking around on a foreign OS. Somehow that lead to 'lets do a virtual machine and build all the instructions for octal instead of hex'. XD
06:30:14 <newsham> i imagine some old archs fit that
06:30:49 <newsham> close: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-8#Instruction_set
06:31:05 <zzo38> Yes I know some do work better with octal, such as if it has a multiple of three bits in one byte.
06:31:14 <myname> jmp, je, inc, dec, mov
06:31:27 <zzo38> (I also use octal for 7-segment patterns)
06:31:57 <zzo38> J_Arcane: What game project and what message is it? What such "game"?
06:32:00 <myname> maybe jl if you want to give some freedom
06:33:14 <J_Arcane> zzo38: I did a roguelike, handhRL, based on a tabletop RPG I published. The opening 'cinematic' text contains some 'garbage data' that actually decodes from octal to "YOU ARE DOOMED". :D
06:35:06 <myname> why is tubes in the "work in progress" list?
06:35:35 <myname> also: did somebody know if there is some easy framework to build roguelikes for android on?
06:39:16 <J_Arcane> The other project I've done so far is BlueBox, which is a graphics library powered by libtcod for simulating an old-school microcomputer. It's what my esolang VIOLET runs on. But what I thought about doing for an actual game was something that replicates the experience of exploring an unfamiliar command line OS. :D
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06:40:20 <zzo38> You could also try to write programs directly for an old microcomputer.
06:43:05 <newsham> have you seen cool-old-term?
06:43:31 <J_Arcane> I have now. :D THat looks cool.
06:43:50 <newsham> didnt the umix icfp contest have an unfamliar command line os?
06:43:52 <J_Arcane> There's one I've seen like that for OS X, but, well, OS X.
06:44:36 <newsham> how about a hacking game bsaed on an unfamliar command line os? that would be fun
06:45:20 <J_Arcane> newsham: Yeah. That was the idea. You get dumped in as a guest user on a strange OS and have X amount of time to solve a target goal.
06:46:50 <newsham> have you seen telehack? :)
06:47:25 <newsham> you can do from cmd line with " telnet telehack.com
06:47:30 <newsham> so youc an run it in cool-old-term if you want
06:47:50 <newsham> here's the instructions http://telehack.com/telehack.html
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06:57:36 <J_Arcane> Jeeze, he's got a full working BASIC and 6502 assembler in there, and apparently a VAX simulator as well?
06:58:08 <J_Arcane> Previously I thought I'd be insane to develop my idea on an actual virtual machine, now I feel like I'd be inadequate if I didn't. ;)
07:11:06 <zzo38> Well, but I sometimes like to write program for Nintendo Famicom. It is also 6502, but decimal mode doesn't work.
07:12:38 <zzo38> Have some people used a Bacon cipher with Baudot encoding instead of the one Bacon used?
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13:57:54 <TieSoul> I'm making a Befunge-98 interpreter in Ruby. I believe that's a first :P
13:58:23 <TieSoul> My old one in Python is too messy and I don't want to do all of that again in the same language, so I'm doing it in Ruby.
13:58:24 <ion> You should make a Ruby interpreter in Befunge-98.
13:59:15 <TieSoul> yes because that's something anyone can do in a lifetime.
13:59:47 <TieSoul> though someone has made a Befunge-98 to ANSI C compiler in Befunge-98 iirc
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14:02:23 <elliott> befunge-98 is not easy to compile
14:02:58 <Phantom_Hoover> is it actually possible to compile or is it one of those parsing perl things
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14:03:56 <elliott> it's not really a parsing perl thing.
14:07:23 <TieSoul> http://www.quote-egnufeb-quote-greaterthan-colon-hash-comma-underscore-at.info/befunge/befc2.php
14:07:30 <TieSoul> does not support self-modification
14:08:30 <fizzie> Or x or j, for that matter. (There's a later written-in-C compiler from the same source that does those.)
14:10:31 <fizzie> As far as Funge-98 programs go, it's still quite a big one.
14:12:46 <TieSoul> I like the name of that website.
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14:59:55 <Vorpal> elliott, Any recommendations for static web site setup? Thinking some markdown based thingy
15:00:21 <elliott> I haven't used any of those thingies. I'm sure they're all fine though
15:00:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about you?
15:01:31 <elliott> build/%.html: src/%.html ; echo "<!doctype html><link rel=stylesheet href=/style><h1><a href=/>vorpals site</a></h1>" >$@; cat $< >>$@
15:02:01 <Vorpal> elliott, you don't need <head> or <html> in HTML5??
15:02:16 <Vorpal> Didn't realise it was quite that free-form
15:02:45 <elliott> html5 is actually pretty usable as an authoring format so I'm not entirely joking her
15:04:32 <fizzie> My website runs on a bit of Python and files containing HTML snippets and some special comment markers.
15:04:56 <fizzie> It's just plain HTML(5) for the actual content parts.
15:05:21 <fizzie> Though I did use markdown for a user's guide thing for a thing at work.
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15:09:06 <elliott> html5 is awkward for code blocks because of escaping though
15:10:33 <fizzie> Oh, I do have a bit of Python for that.
15:11:29 <fizzie> <highlight lang="x"> ... </highlight> blocks are extracted and passed through some command-line syntax highlighter.
15:11:43 <fizzie> Or just escaped and put in a <pre>-alike if x is "text".
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15:13:03 <fizzie> Heh, Europe looks impressively thundery.
15:13:07 <fizzie> (Nothing in our corner.)
15:22:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, though it hasn't really reached us yet
15:22:07 <b_jonas> I think it will in the evening
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18:34:33 <zzo38> If you are making a new kind of Huffman coding where once a character is output it just leads to another state instead of necessarily starting over from the first state, then what is this called?
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18:41:40 <elliott> fizzie: it would be nice if HTML5 had heredocs or something.
18:42:18 <int-e> zzo38: there's a bunch of articles on compression with weighted finite automata. they probably use arithmetic coding on top of that but there's no reason why that couldn't be done by a huffman code.
18:42:40 <zzo38> elliott: I agree with such thing; things that compile into HTML5 (as well as various other formats too) could convert such heredocs
18:43:28 <zzo38> int-e: What is a weighted finite automata?
18:44:06 <int-e> zzo38: a finite automaton with some sort of weights on the transitions; in the data compression case, the weights will be probabilities.
18:45:26 <zzo38> The way I was thinking of, there are no weights after it is compiled; each state consists of: next state in case of 0, next state in case of 1, character output in case of 0, character output in case of 1; all parts are optional.
18:48:43 <int-e> zzo38: unrelated to data compression, there are finite automata with output: Moore and Mealy machines. (Personally, I never found those concepts very helpful.)
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18:57:48 <b_jonas> int-e: so, a Markov Chains?
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18:59:30 <int-e> b_jonas: With probabilities as weights: yes.
19:01:41 <int-e> b_jonas: Ah, no, but the concepts are closely related. The difference is, with a weighted automaton you have multiple transition matrices; which one is used depends on the input.
19:07:25 <int-e> b_jonas: this sentence (from Wikipedia) is illustrative of the difference: "A finite state machine can be used as a representation of a Markov chain. Assuming a sequence of independent and identically distributed input signals (for example, symbols from a binary alphabet chosen by coin tosses), if the machine is in state y at time n, then the probability that it moves to state x at time n + 1 depends only on the current...
19:07:58 <int-e> note the assumption that the sequence be i.i.d.; in practice that assumption will not hold for, say, text inputs.
19:10:28 <int-e> (And this problem does not simply go away by considering higher order Markov chains; weighted automata can track properties that depend on the whole history of events so far. For example, they could tell whether the number of 0 bits seen so far is odd or even.)
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19:12:18 * int-e wonders if he's making any sense.
19:15:15 <b_jonas> can't think of such stuff now
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19:25:57 <J_Arcane> Heh. Never seen this in a programming book before: "Exercise 12. Now relax, eat, sleep, and then tackle the next chapter. "
19:35:20 <zzo38> How fast is a Commodore 64 compared to Nintendo Famicom?
19:40:13 <Melvar> elliott: What would a heredoc be in the context of html5?
19:40:36 <J_Arcane> zzo38: Well, the processor is the same, so it reall comes down to how the support chips make things easier or not for the CPU.
19:40:53 <elliott> Melvar: something to let you have a bunch of text that doesn't need escaping, for code snippets.
19:41:17 <Melvar> Does it not have CDATA?
19:41:45 <elliott> huh, would that work for <pre>?
19:42:05 <J_Arcane> The 6502 in the NES clocks higher.
19:42:06 <elliott> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3302648/should-i-use-cdata-in-html5 XHTML5 only and only allowed in certain elements
19:45:22 <J_Arcane> zzo38: This post lacks hard numbers, but seems a reasonable summary: http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14988
19:46:51 <b_jonas> but doesn't the c64 have a proper 6502 whereas the famicom has a cheaper variant?
19:49:04 <J_Arcane> Wiki says the Ricoh chip in the NES is missing BCD mode but otherwise seems to add more things than it removes.
19:49:06 <int-e> meaning "all the undocumented opcodes that hackers love work"?
19:49:38 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: is that one of those that add some 16-bit stuff?
19:50:01 <Melvar> elliott: Okay, so in HTML5 it’s only allowed in embedded XML. In XML to the best of my understanding it’s allowed anywhere literal text is.
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19:54:27 <J_Arcane> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricoh_2A03
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19:57:40 <zzo38> int-e: All unofficial opcodes of NMOS 6502 do work; only decimal mode doesn't work.
19:58:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: but msot of those unofficial opcodes don't do anything useful, do they? except for one right shift instruction that was found a big buggy so it was deemed unofficial, or something
19:59:15 <J_Arcane> This all reminds me that I've a c64 assembly tutorial I wanted to play with soon.
19:59:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, maybe half of the unofficial opcodes are useful, I think.
20:00:00 <fizzie> This year's Assembly's "oldskool demo" competition had a total of two (2) entries, both for the Amiga 500 (500).
20:00:35 <zzo38> The game "Attribute Zone" uses several unofficial opcodes.
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20:01:23 <fizzie> And then the "real wild" compo had two Commodore PETs and a VIC-20.
20:01:53 <fizzie> There's a silly quirk in the rules that the "oldschool platforms" are limited to a fixed set, instead of the released-commercially-in-the-given-timeframe criteria they used to have.
20:02:26 <fizzie> (On the other hand, the party organizers provide the hardware for running them, so I guess the fixed set is just what they and their friends had.)
20:02:29 <zzo38> Some of them are not useful because they are unstable; others are the same function as official opcodes so they could be used if you want those specific bit patterns for the instructions rather than other ones.
20:03:17 <fizzie> (The set consists of: C64, Plus/4, A500, Atari STf and 130xe, MSX1, Speccy 128k and an Amstrad CPC6128.)
20:03:46 <zzo38> See http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/CPU_unofficial_opcodes and http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Programming_with_unofficial_opcodes for details about unofficial opcodes.
20:07:20 <fizzie> Z80 has an undocumented opcode "in f, (c)" which reads from an I/O port into the flags register.
20:08:23 <zzo38> fizzie: I suppose it is normally not useful unless you are connecting special devices to the I/O port; if you are then it probably can help though.
20:09:06 <fizzie> Yes, it can (theoretically, anyway) be useful if you're interested in a bit that happens to coincide with one of the flags for which there are conditional jumps.
20:10:11 <fizzie> Though the "z80undoc" document mentions something about "some older Z80" locking up.
20:13:17 <fizzie> There's also a left shift that 1-fills the least significant bit, that can be useful. (It's there in the instruction set where the "missing" shift instruction out of the "{logical, arithmetic} shift {left, right}" quadruplet should be.)
20:15:36 <fizzie> (It's the same as a "scf; rl" pair, except in one instruction.)
20:16:18 <zzo38> Yes it can be useful; 6502 has no such single instruction
20:25:39 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, interesting; it's not really the opposite of an arithmetic shift right
20:25:47 <ais523> because that would fill the low bit only if the number was odd
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20:35:44 <fizzie> ais523_: "Logically" (no pun intended) the opcode in fact corresponds to a *logical* shift left; the "arithmetic shift left" opcode is the regular left shift.
20:36:12 <ais523_> arithmetically, it's a times-2-plus-1 operation
20:36:21 <ais523_> which is certainly something I've used in the past
20:38:02 <zzo38> Yes, it is in fact the very useful thing
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20:58:09 <elliott> Melvar: the thing I linked said you can only use it with script and style in XHTML5 I think
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21:58:44 <nooodl> wow z80 code golf is pretty mindblowing! here's one i made earlier http://bpaste.net/raw/552075/
22:08:21 <zzo38> Now can you do a 6502 code golf?
22:12:43 <nooodl> i haven't tried. this works with anarchy golf's z80 emulator's IO which is just "putchar at $8000, getchar at $8003"; i guess you could do the same on a 6502
22:20:03 <zzo38> Unofficial MagicKit uses the same address for putchar and getchar on standard I/O (however, this function is rarely used anyways since MagicKit is a compiler, so standard I/O is normally only used for debugging).
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22:41:11 * boily gently mapoles fungot before his vacation
22:41:12 <fungot> boily: see? who cares about ie". i guess it's just because he doesn't ever talk. i'd like to design a good embedded scheme user environment.
22:41:34 <oerjan> what, are we going to be boilyless?
22:41:50 <fungot> oerjan: ( or put it up somewhere else, 1 sec... one school put up some text on the distinction between tags and types aren't first-order. take the list monad
22:42:14 <boily> oerjan: indeed. I'll be on the other side of the Great Puddle until August 12.
22:43:03 <boily> it is, but I'll be a little be South.
22:43:27 <oerjan> somewhere in the francophonie?
22:43:45 <boily> more South. in the South of Spain.
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22:44:30 <oerjan> beware of the spanish inquisition.
22:45:07 * oerjan never has been in spain, which makes him an unusual norwegian.
22:45:48 <boily> does that mean I'll be meeting a lot of Norwegians?
22:46:08 * boily prepares himself for spotting tall blond people in the field
22:46:22 <oerjan> especially retired ones.
22:46:57 <oerjan> i think my aunt spends most of her time in the canaries these days.
22:47:07 <boily> ah, the European version of snowbirds. I understand.
22:47:40 <boily> retired Québécois all flock down to Florida.
22:50:50 <oerjan> mind you, that's the traditional place that first got them. nowadays there are also a lot in turkey and some in thailand, and probably other places.
22:53:32 * oerjan hasn't been any of those places either.
22:54:29 <boily> I never went to Florida. I should try Thaïland some day, to learn more about their cuisine.
22:57:09 <oerjan> that ï confuses me a bit, because the ai is pronounced as one syllable; but then i remember that french uses it to mean it's not a single vowel.
22:59:22 <zzo38> Why did they eventually stop making VCRs record LP?
23:00:40 <boily> oerjan: everything is a single vowel in French, except when it isn't.
23:00:47 <int-e> zzo38: I'm getting a parse error from that.
23:01:10 <int-e> "long play" (record, presumably vinyl)
23:01:26 <int-e> but that may be my mistake.
23:02:02 <nooodl> oerjan: <ai> is /ɛ/ in french
23:02:12 <boily> int-e: that only confuses me more. what has a vinyl record got to do with a VCR.
23:02:12 <zzo38> I don't mean vinyl records; I mean a recording mode where the tape is four hours long.
23:02:42 <boily> nooodl: je proteste. <ai> is /e/, not /ɛ/.
23:03:11 <int-e> ah. it's called VCR-LP.
23:03:28 <oerjan> nooodl: except that in "caille", it's apparently /ɑ/
23:03:52 <boily> «caille» is /kaj/.
23:04:00 <nooodl> boily: contre-argument: t'es québécois
23:04:08 <boily> (câille, on the other hand...)
23:04:39 <oerjan> boily: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/caille#Pronunciation
23:04:57 <boily> THEY LIE! IT'S NOT TRUE!
23:05:53 <oerjan> does québécöís have the /ɑ/ vs. /a/ distinction?
23:06:13 <zzo38> The VCR I have cannot record onto VHS in LP mode; only SP and EP are supported. It can record onto DVD in SP, LP, and EP mode, though.
23:06:23 <boily> (heh. québécöís. :D)
23:07:57 <nooodl> apparently belgian french makes the distinction but i was taught metropolitan french even though i live in belgium
23:08:24 <nooodl> (whispers to himself "patte. pâââââte. patte")
23:08:50 <boily> poil. poêle. la. là.
23:09:28 <int-e> zzo38: I can't help you there. SP has best quality, EP has the longest recording time; perhaps LP is a compromise that few people desire. Supporting three recording speeds would make the device more complex (mechanically). OTOH for DVD it's just a matter of specifying a target bit rate to the encoder.
23:09:35 * oerjan mainly remembers the word "caille" from the dish in babette's feast ("Caille en Sarcophage avec Sauce Perigourdine")
23:12:00 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babette's_Feast
23:12:25 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babette's_Feast#The_menu
23:13:18 <oerjan> oh that's of course an enormous spoiler if you haven't seen the movie
23:15:02 <oerjan> "Pope Francis has identified Babette's Feast as his favorite film."
23:15:38 <boily> no click for me then.
23:33:58 <boily> http://www.reddit.com/r/infiniteworldproblems ← nothing better to keep you sane. saaaaaaaane.
23:35:13 <oerjan> i thought fifthworldproblems was already sane enough
23:47:06 <zzo38> I have an idea; using the Famicom's tape port to connect together two Famicom units.
23:47:37 <zzo38> It may be doable even just using the expansion port and not using the tape port, but if the software is using the keyboard, then you can use the tape port.
23:48:04 <zzo38> So, it is two players game with two keyboard and two screens.