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00:26:55 <Sgeo> How soon until Backpack becomes the Haskell way to do things?
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00:56:49 <quintopia> once it stops being what you carry to hike a long way
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02:01:00 <zzo38> I think Haskell can be a convenient notation for describing many things (in a kind of mathematical kind of way), whether or not the program is actually written in Haskell (or even if it is not a computer program at all).
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02:52:06 <Sgeo> I may have told someone that dynamically making an SQL query is not necessarily that terrible... after checking that the possible insertion is one of a fixed number of possibilties
02:52:26 <Sgeo> https://github.com/PoseidonAW/Py_RPG/commit/dd00ec6dc0653a5a54bc67fea79a1a269c2c5d9e#commitcomment-7349049
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05:23:24 <fizzie> Sgeo: (Assuming that 'name' is an unique field,) how is the behavior of that select-and-fetch-and-update any different from the single query UPDATE players SET foo = foo + ? WHERE name = ?
05:24:05 <Sgeo> fizzie: I didn't write the code nor look at it that closely, but I can make the suggestion
05:24:07 <fizzie> (You don't get to print the old and new values with that, of course, but that seems more of a debugging thing.)
05:24:54 <Sgeo> Wait, you can do math in SQL?
05:26:47 <fizzie> The behavior might be slightly different on overflow.
05:28:01 <zzo38> Yes of course you can do math in SQL.
05:28:31 <zzo38> It is a full programming language.
05:28:50 <fizzie> The Python addition will switch from 'int' to 'long' (bignum), and I'm not entirely sure whether the insert of a too large value will do exactly the same thing than what the database would do on overflow during expression evaluation. But it doesn't seem to be carefully considering that in any case.
05:30:19 <fizzie> If it is/becomes necessary to know whether the update affected any rows (like for calling update_stats or not), testing for cursor.rowcount > 0 is an option.
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05:39:16 <elliott> why does python call bignums long anyway
05:40:29 <fizzie> Because they're so long. (Really, it's v. confusing.)
05:41:25 <fizzie> Makes me wonder if an early Python had fixed-but-different-size int and long.
05:42:33 <fizzie> (Also its ints are C longs.)
05:50:07 <fizzie> Python 3 calls both types 'int' and just handles the distinction between fixnums and bignums internally.
05:57:47 <Bike> what about the long bignums, used to represent numbers too large for positional numeral to be practicable
06:43:15 <Sgeo> And LiterallyUnbelievable misses the joke... http://literallyunbelievable.org/post/93775401734/i-suspect-genetics-plays-a-role
06:43:50 <Sgeo> Unless it doesn't just do people who take The Onion literally
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06:52:49 <fizzie> "So please propose topics both in Finnish and English! (and if possible for you, Swedish would be useful, too. We have a couple students wiring in Swedish each semester.)"
06:52:58 <fizzie> I wonder how Swedish wiring differs from the regular sort.
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07:03:43 <olsner> maybe it was supposed to say "writing"?
07:08:00 <oerjan> nah it's a holdoff from the 50s when the swedes drove on the left side
07:13:25 <olsner> I think that continued a bit into the 60s actually
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08:10:58 <scshunt_> quick poll: how many of you can reliably ping uwaterloo.ca?
08:12:27 <scshunt_> unrelated: america again is an excellent book
08:12:56 <scshunt_> it has a wonderful story about the aynt and the grasshopper, which ends with Ayn Rand crushing them both underfoot because the ant colony reminded her of communism
08:21:15 <scshunt_> hhmmmm... I need a machine I can reverse tunnel through :
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08:27:59 <J_Arcane> This is the most complicated thing I have ever done in assembly. https://github.com/jarcane/MicroMini/blob/master/helloworld.mmasm
08:30:42 <J_Arcane> Next to make a Quine of it. :D
08:32:22 <J_Arcane> MicroMini, the virtual machine I built (code is elsewhere in that repo).
08:37:17 <oerjan> the conundrum with assembly quines: are they intrinsically cheating or not
08:37:47 <oerjan> i suppose they don't have to be
08:40:02 <shachaf> oerjan: i think intrinsically cheating would usually be done in higher-level languages like c
08:40:11 <shachaf> in assembly you would just write the instruction
08:40:12 <J_Arcane> Actually come to think of it I am not sure how I'd even do a quine with that. I guess maybe I could just change the test so that the printer loops over the entire program.
08:40:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean, it is usually considered cheating for a quine to access its program code directly
08:41:06 <J_Arcane> But I think that'd just produce a lot of garbage. And if I printed everything from a data string, that data string would itself have to contain the data string ad infinitum.
08:41:18 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably an assembly quine would need to print the assembly input, not the generated code
08:41:32 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway it was just trying to be an "intrinsic" pun of some sort
08:41:49 <shachaf> as in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intrinsic_function
08:42:16 <fizzie> It's like watching a train wreck.
08:42:19 -!- oerjan has set topic: The place where puns go to die | brainfuck survey: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/L82SNZV | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
08:42:35 <fizzie> Except I don't think I've ever watched one.
08:43:01 <shachaf> #trains is probably the channel for them
08:44:16 <oerjan> <J_Arcane> [...] And if I printed everything from a data string, that data string would itself have to contain the data string ad infinitum. <-- you're not very well acquainted with quines, i take.
08:44:42 <J_Arcane> No, I'm not really, beyond the wiki entry and a few mentions here.
08:44:53 <J_Arcane> Perhaps I've misunderstood the directive.
08:45:21 <J_Arcane> Err, words failing, brain tired: read instead intent/instructions/etc.
08:46:44 <oerjan> anyway the clue is that you use the data string _twice_, once to print the data string and once to print the rest of the code. (possibly not in order.)
08:46:50 <fizzie> The prime directive is to not interfere with natural quine development.
08:47:30 <oerjan> fizzie: to that i say, what evidence have we that quines have _ever_ developed naturally
08:48:22 * oerjan sweeps the body of godel under the rug
08:49:54 <oerjan> maybe the universe is a quine that has always existed, and the others are mere subcopies of it.
08:50:06 <scshunt_> oerjan: I don't think it's cheating to access the program code directly
08:54:56 <elliott> a C program that printed out its machine code would be cool
08:55:08 <elliott> by which I mean, its compiled executable
08:56:19 <oerjan> i think you can print any computable function of the code, so that shouldn't be too hard
08:56:21 <elliott> bonus points if it works with multiple OSes and compilers
08:56:33 <elliott> oerjan: in less code than gcc, preferably :)
08:56:49 <elliott> it's probably not actually that hard.
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09:02:16 <Taneb> One think I want to do is write a standards-compliant but horrible C implementation
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09:02:54 <oerjan> make sure it doesn't support the struct hack
09:02:58 <fizzie> You mean a DS9K simulator?
09:03:13 <oerjan> _either_ 1 or MAXSIZE form
09:03:37 <Taneb> fizzie, along those lines
09:03:38 <oerjan> has anyone made a DS9K
09:04:33 <fizzie> There have been some attempts, but I don't know of anything that really went anywhere.
09:06:34 <fizzie> ds9k.com is... a blog about freeware programs?
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09:08:48 <Deewiant> I think I got as far as having part of a preprocessor and most of a tokenizer
09:09:13 <fizzie> Deewiant: That's longer than the most prominent Google hit of https://github.com/nitrix/ds9k
09:10:39 <Taneb> "Removing the hard drive from the PC and hitting it with a large hammer will stop easy access to the data but will not stop a more determined attacker unless you use a very large hammer."
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09:11:02 <Taneb> -- actual text of a university policy here
09:12:28 <Deewiant> Yep, I've got some 1500 lines of Haskell that probably doesn't compile against modern library versions
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10:59:57 <nooodl> aretecode: hi good connection
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11:18:54 <nooodl> hm: isn't befunge's thing where it "tries to be hard to compile" sort of meaningless
11:19:34 <nooodl> i mean an interpreter in C with fixed source code is pretty much "compiled befunge"
11:21:30 <Deewiant> It's pretty much but not really
11:23:46 <nooodl> it's admittedly kind of a cheaty solution but what's really the difference!
11:23:47 <Deewiant> For one thing, when done like that, ahead-of-time compilation doesn't improve performance over plain interpretation
11:24:37 <Deewiant> Which is something that you'd usually expect to be the case and is I guess the original main reason for compiling stuff
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11:40:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess to do it 'properly' you'd have to incorporate a JIT compiler into the final executable
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11:58:27 <Deewiant> I don't think that counts any more than embedding an interpreter does
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12:18:18 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, eh, i think it satisfies the criterion that separarates compilers from 'interpreters bundled with source'
12:21:26 <fizzie> The good old compiler debate rears its ugly head.
12:22:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Does ##fixyourconnection exist?
12:23:45 <fizzie> ##c auto-redirect-bans to ##stop_join_flood, so I guess there's competition in the market.
12:26:56 <Deewiant> Phantom_Hoover: "JIT compiler bundled with source" seems like a variant of the latter to me
12:28:07 <fizzie> fungot: How did it feel when you were compiled?
12:28:08 <fungot> fizzie: i just had a blank program.
12:28:18 <fizzie> Must've been terrible.
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12:31:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Deewiant, not necessarily bundled with source, just used on the result of g/p instructions
12:31:29 <Phantom_Hoover> ...which, now i think about it, is the same as the actual source
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16:54:08 <lambdabot> LOWI 121620Z 07004KT 040V110 9999 FEW025 SCT055 BKN065 17/12 Q1015 NOSIG
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17:00:18 <int-e> and LOWI is the ICAO code for the local airport.
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17:32:35 <FreeFull> http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=63944
17:35:24 <Taneb> Yesterday I was thinking about base -2 arithmetic
17:40:30 <Melvar> I like symmetric base 3.
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17:46:19 <nooodl> FreeFull: i have no clue how to run this
17:46:45 <nooodl> the link in the readme is just broken too wow
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17:57:42 <FreeFull> nooodl: run npm install in the directory, and then node app.js
17:57:55 <FreeFull> I had trouble figuring it out myself
17:58:06 <FreeFull> Taneb: Yeah, it's called negabinary
18:01:03 <J_Arcane> That is evil. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_base
18:02:45 <int-e> though counting takes some getting used to. 0 1 110 111 100 101 11000 ...
18:04:20 <int-e> right. the last one should be 11010.
18:05:57 <int-e> nega-zeckendorf representation is worse.
18:12:18 <Phantom_Hoover> or golden ratio base, every time i think i understand that i forget the details
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18:52:51 <quintopia> boily! haven't seen you around here in a bit...
19:03:52 <boily> I was with my parents, enjoying the sun, the narrow streets, the tapas, the architecture...
19:03:58 <nooodl> what happens in spain stays in spain
19:04:23 <boily> nooodl: sadly yes. I'll miss the food.
19:04:36 * boily recalls the taste of the delicious chipirónes...
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19:53:59 <fizzie> Huh, gedit (I use it occasionally to look at clipboard, as opposed to selection) has turned into something completely different-looking. It no longer has regular menu bars, instead it just has a combined toolbar-titlebar thing, and a rounded-corners-and-drop-shadow window that it draws itself. With a XMonad-drawn solid red border hovering a centimetre away.
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19:54:58 <boily> fizzie: disgraceful!
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20:06:55 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140812-gedit.png just look at that stuff
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20:10:42 <boily> (nice fungot backdrop, tho.)
20:10:42 <fungot> boily: you want a bit of a functional solution first if i can put it on pretty much everything is better nekkid
20:10:54 <int-e> yay for oversized buttons and fonts
20:11:00 <boily> fungot: I like your source code naked, you kinky bot you ;)
20:11:01 <fungot> boily: yeah, that too. seemed to confirm people's satanic conspiracy theories about lucent... but then, i have no clue what you are
20:11:17 <boily> fungot: I am an abnormally tanned Canadian.
20:11:17 <fungot> boily: ( b)? no way, twb, but he's doing an excercise, so that's good.
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20:11:32 <fungot> boily: that's 22 tokens in all.
20:11:43 <boily> fungot: I have a 5 euro bill. will that do?
20:11:54 <int-e> and what's up with this recent averseness to menu bars?!
20:12:34 <fizzie> The "cogwheel button" pops up a giant menu with everything in it.
20:13:35 <fizzie> Save functionality, search and replace, fullscreen mode, spell-checking, syntax highlighting, help, about, close, quit.
20:13:47 <fizzie> It's all related to cogwheels.
20:13:56 <J_Arcane> fizzie: GNOME developers have started drinking the tablet koolaid, sadly.
20:14:11 <J_Arcane> It's kind of a big schism right now.
20:14:11 <fizzie> Sorry, only "save as" and "save all". The regular save is the button with the arrow.
20:14:16 <int-e> at least the cogwheel is nicer than firebox's "menu bar" bars
20:14:32 <fizzie> The three parallel horizontal bars?
20:14:41 <boily> I want my floppy! how will I know what newfangled button will save?
20:14:42 <int-e> (from a purely aesthetic point of view)
20:14:46 <int-e> fizzie: yes that one
20:14:48 <fizzie> I've got that in both Chromium and Icedove here, it must be some kind of a standard.
20:15:06 <int-e> I don't have it in firefox anymore, but it took some effort ;)
20:15:09 <J_Arcane> int-e: Man, the Firefox menu button doesn't even make *sense*. At least the one on Chrome actualyl brings up a list; the FF menu is actually an icon bin.
20:15:23 <fizzie> Cogwheels are everywhere in Android, too.
20:15:45 <int-e> I think it's this userChrome.css entry: #PanelUI-button { display: none !important }
20:16:10 <fizzie> The Icedove/Thunderbird menu bar button menu (...) is a two-panel menu.
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20:17:58 <fizzie> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20140812-icedove.png
20:18:13 <TieSoul> I just implemented Deadfish in TI-BASIC. Reminds me why I avoid programming in it.
20:18:14 <fizzie> I guess it's mostly a two-column menu except with some icons thrown in.
20:19:35 <int-e> oh, ice*dove*, not iceweasel.
20:20:08 <int-e> that looks the same here. for some reason I don't notice the button so much though
20:20:58 <int-e> (the reason is actually simple - I have a search bar at the rightmost end of the iceweasel tool bar, and that gets displaced by the useless menu button)
20:21:17 <int-e> I activated the menu bar in icedove.
20:22:04 <int-e> But I'd quit using Ctrl-Q.
20:22:26 <fizzie> I can never remember whether it's ctrl-q or ctrl-shift-q or what in which program.
20:22:32 <fizzie> Chromium does ctrl-shift-q.
20:22:42 <fizzie> I get those two mixed up.
20:22:58 <fizzie> The "compose a new message" window in Icedove has a regular menu bar.
20:23:00 <int-e> it should be ctrl-q
20:23:13 <int-e> icedove really messes me up with its redefined ctrl-f
20:23:40 <int-e> no, "forward" is not important enough to steal a standard keybinding.
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20:33:45 * boily playfully mapoles oerjan
20:34:47 <oerjan> did you know metasepia has been fired
20:34:59 <oerjan> lambdabot took eir job
20:35:07 <lambdabot> ENVA 122020Z 16006KT 100V220 CAVOK 18/08 Q0994 RMK WIND 670FT 19019KT
20:35:37 <boily> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
20:35:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 122000Z 15021KT 15SM FEW055 BKN085 OVC220 27/14 A2993 RMK CU1AC4CI3 SLP136 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
20:35:51 <shachaf> i never metasepia i didn't like
20:35:57 <olsner> that's what happens when you log out your bot, boily
20:36:03 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but you cannot expect a bot to keep a channel job with that kind of spotty attendance.
20:36:06 <lambdabot> this would never have happened if metasepia had actually been here reliably.
20:36:34 * boily mapoles shachaf for that horrible pun.
20:36:44 <boily> oh well. such is life.
20:37:05 <int-e> boily: you should be proud. ~metar was so useful that I missed it when it wasn't there :P
20:37:21 <oerjan> the proper punishment for meta-puns is the falling anvil hth
20:38:10 <boily> there's an official Chännel Änvil?
20:38:22 <oerjan> well, mostly i'm the one getting crushed by it
20:38:33 <oerjan> i supposed it's rare these days.
20:39:49 <oerjan> i'm sure you could have looked it up in the logs, back when HackEgo had them >_>
20:40:40 <boily> too complex for my jetlagged brain.
20:40:46 <boily> (besides, I think I'm hungry.)
20:41:38 <olsner> how do anvils work on irc anyway?
20:41:54 <boily> probably the same as they do in minecraft?
20:42:05 <boily> I wouldn't know. I never touched an anvil.
20:44:40 <int-e> boily: well, it's simple: you drop the anvil; the target feels suitably smashed; life goes on.
20:45:05 <int-e> (step 2 is optional)
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20:49:34 <shachaf> step 2 is the most important one
20:52:05 <oerjan> i think step 1 is the optional one - the anvil is not to be trusted.
20:54:20 <shachaf> step 3 is not so much optional as irrelevant
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20:57:42 <int-e> but step 3 is a crucial difference between IRC and real life
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21:13:18 <boily> I musn't be tempted by the mattress. I mustn't be tempted by the mattress. I mustn't be tempted by the mattress. my mind is pure and completely devoid of any visions of sleep.
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21:22:34 <boily> I won't be that easily corrupted by those earthly delights.
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