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16:06:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Two]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40308&oldid=39517 * Tailcalled * (+5)
16:07:45 <quintopia> i'm not convinced that Two solves the halting problem
16:16:23 <int-e> quintopia: It does for standard turing-complete languages: Write an interpreter for a universal machine that takes a maximum number of simulation steps as its argument; make it loop forever if the number of steps is exhausted. Use I to guess the necessary number of iterations until the program terminates.
16:16:33 <int-e> Of course it does not solve the Halting problem for itself.
16:17:41 <int-e> also I is not well-defined; consider +>>I[-[>]<<[]>-] (which halts if I produces an even number, and loops forever otherwise)
16:17:54 <int-e> (at least that's my intention, I have not tested the code)
16:19:36 <TieSoul> how would that discern between even and not even?
16:20:14 <int-e> TieSoul: it's basically [--] with a test for zero in the middle.
16:21:03 <TieSoul> It loops basically forever regardless though
16:21:39 <TieSoul> since | represents infinity
16:23:31 <int-e> oh, I guess the specification doesn't really say anything about the values of the cells. I assumed natural numbers, but indeed you can add an infinity.
16:23:49 <int-e> (which is not modified by + nor -)
16:24:47 <int-e> but it's crucial that I does not simply use that value unless all smaller values violate its specification
16:26:08 <int-e> and worse, the infinity itself has to be excluded from its considerations. I[-] is supposed to terminate, but if I sets the cell to infinity, it would run forever.
16:28:14 <int-e> Ok, I also got the halting problem reduction slightly wrong (it reduces the halting problem to another one); instead of looping forever when the number of iterations is exhausted, it should print "No", while upon successful termination, it should print "Yes".
16:30:30 <int-e> Oh, there's an example I[->.<] which clarifies the behaviour of I.
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17:18:47 <zzo38> It does not mention how the halting problem is solved.
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18:14:52 <zzo38> Is it correct that I[->.<] is improper but that I[-.] is OK?
18:16:57 <zzo38> It says that I is an infinite loop if it is improper; does this mean the I instruction itself or the data is made infinite?
18:17:24 <coppro> it doens't say "improper"
18:17:32 <zzo38> I know it doesn't say "improper"
18:17:32 <coppro> there is nothing improper
18:18:27 <zzo38> Surely a program such as ]]I]]]]-[ would be improper, isn't it?
18:18:49 <coppro> peharps. the specification does not say
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18:31:03 <zzo38> They mentione above that it is not well defined +>>I[-[>]<<[]>-] see?
18:31:40 <zzo38> Although then they say it is infinite
18:33:11 <zzo38> Since sometimes it is impossible to do what it says it is supposed to do
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18:36:36 <zzo38> Do you have any better ideas for defining a programming language to define effect of cards in Magic: the Gathering and Pokemon card and so on, other than solely what I have written in the past few days? Perhaps, something based on those but better or more defined?
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18:45:18 <int-e> zzo38: I'd agree that I[-.] should terminate, because of . being a nop for non-unicode code points.
18:46:11 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, that is what I would see, too. (Even if extended to a longer range, as long as it is still a limited range of codepoints it is still OK)
18:46:23 <mauris> guess it would print all of unicode in reverse order
18:46:56 <mauris> I[--.] wouldn't be well defined though!
18:47:24 <zzo38> I think you are correct
18:48:53 <int-e> mauris: as the comment below the table says, in that case I would loop forever; the result would be a program that loops forever without output.
18:51:11 <zzo38> It seems that it ought to simply be an error instead; where an error is considered as not halting.
18:55:45 <int-e> that would raise the question whether errors are distinguishable from nontermination
18:59:08 <zzo38> The answer must be whichever way does not cause a paradox. (I am not sure that a paradox can be caused anyways, but possibly it can be considered??)
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19:00:10 <quintopia> i agree that I[-.] should do nothing and never halt
19:00:38 <quintopia> since if I+ is the same as I++ is the same as I+++, then so also should I be the same as I- and I--
19:00:51 <zzo38> No, I don't think that is what it means.
19:01:35 <zzo38> Well, I suppose what you say is true but that's because the "I" command then uses different values to compensate for such thing.
19:01:53 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to imply, to me, that I[-.] should then never halt.
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19:03:02 <quintopia> rereading, the print all code points and halt also makes sense
19:04:00 <quintopia> however, I[--.] as a program that loops forever without output also makes sense in the hyperreals
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19:14:03 <impomatic> It seems to me there ought to be an online IPA phonics to speech synthesiser, but I can't find one :-(
19:18:32 <zzo38> If you cannot find such a program, maybe you can write one? Do you know how to write one?
19:20:34 <fizzie> Loquendo had one (I don't recall if they had a demo), but their website seems to have been discombobulated now that Nuance bought them.
19:21:50 <fizzie> You can feed raw SSMP into http://www2.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php but I doubt their voices cover all of IPA.
19:22:36 <fizzie> Er, SSML. I don't know where I got the P from.
19:23:07 <zzo38> How to sort a partial ordering in a C program?
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19:26:48 <fizzie> <phoneme alphabet="att_sampa_english" ph="k { t">dummy</phoneme> sounds like a cat, but <phoneme alphabet="ipa" ...> doesn't work, so you're limited to what you can find in English SAMPA.
19:28:03 <zzo38> So you cannot get X-SAMPA then either, I suppose.
19:28:03 <fizzie> Huh, actually alphabet="ipa" does something too, if you hex-entity-encode the IPA stuff.
19:28:44 <fizzie> And now I got plain <phoneme alphabet="ipa" ph="kæt">...</phoneme> out too, so I guess I just typoed something.
19:28:54 <fizzie> Anyway, I doubt you can stick any IPA in there and expect it to work.
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19:30:20 <fizzie> Yeah, at least ɸ doesn't come out at all.
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19:35:34 <fizzie> Someone's made a bookmarklet -- http://johntantalo.com/blog/ipa-tts-bookmarklet/ -- around the AT&T demo, that's about all freely available I can find.
19:37:38 <fizzie> Fun fact: we've got a visitor from University of Edinburgh's speech synthesis group (home of Festival) at our lab/group/organizational-unit this month.
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19:40:15 <zzo38> Did you know, that in Hero Hearts, a fire extinguisher not only extinguishes fire, but it also extinguishes lava, too?
19:41:15 <impomatic> Not much luck trying to feed "kʀiːk deːɐ̯ kɛʁnə" into TTS!
19:41:24 <shachaf> Is that a card game which is a variation of Hearts?
19:41:48 <zzo38> It is a computer game
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19:47:47 <mauris> impomatic: i could pronounce it for you!
19:49:12 <impomatic> fizzie: no luck with the bookmarklet in Chrome. It's not even working on his examples.
19:50:00 <fizzie> They may have changed the interface.
19:50:38 <mauris> what about http://forvo.com/word/krieg/#de http://forvo.com/word/der/#de http://forvo.com/word/kerne/#de
19:50:41 <impomatic> mauris: thanks, if you shout it really, really loud that should do the trick.
19:51:34 <fizzie> Oh, it's actual language and not just some made-up thing?
19:51:51 <fizzie> You can just write "krieg der kerne" in Google Translate and ask it to play it back.
19:52:19 <mauris> oh yeah that of course
19:57:35 <fizzie> I've said this before, but having GT speak English words with their Finnish voice is p. amusing. It's a very close approximation of the stereotypical bad English Finns are supposed to speak.
19:57:39 <fizzie> Comes with having a more or less phonemic orthography, I'm sure.
19:57:41 <fizzie> Probably most of the joke is lost on non-Finnish people.
19:59:23 <fizzie> You're missing the context of jokes about "tankero-englanti".
19:59:33 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankero ooh, notable
20:00:47 <impomatic> Thanks, google translate sounds close to the forvo pronunciation. I'm still surprised there isn't an IPA to speech tool online though.
20:01:04 <fizzie> You should make one to rectify this.
20:01:23 <fizzie> You could call it "the IPAmatic".
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